I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony
Guest post by Jerome Ravetz
At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information. Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions. We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.
Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real. Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State. This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions. In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open. If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices. I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.
There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification. In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable. It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.). When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute. It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science. The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.
We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case. This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time. Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming. There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation. Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2 had always previously been at or below that starting level). Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.
In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one. It seems that several causes conspired. First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position. Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal. And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged. It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message. As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’. Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.
Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us. But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working. Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective. The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics. The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab. If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends. The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs. Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.
In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended. Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3. The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified. Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six. And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems. As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards! In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.
Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough. So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world. Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science. And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision. Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.
As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused. In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science. But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore. We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’. This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure. Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet. Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort. All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed. As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate. Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.
Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere. Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound. By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course. The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold. For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’. Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust. Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’. And then came the e-mails.
We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming. Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits: facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent. In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt. The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling. What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.
Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse. The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way. Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance. And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound? The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped. I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair. But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).
Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed. Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited. Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost. To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical. For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community. In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm. In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance. We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved. Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation. Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise. And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation. This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems. The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.
The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls. It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures. Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment. This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now. A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty. But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.
To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere. The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme. Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.
The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested. To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey. There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes. The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened. The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace. The Climategate affair shows the importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.
The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’. And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means. With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing. But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries. The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources. With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly. As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages. Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions. In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses. The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty. The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.
Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted. It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse. The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known. But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science. The blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains. Some parts are quite mainstream, others not. The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other. Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time. Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com). Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature. Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.
Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere. Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously. And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised. Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses. But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different. I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.
There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts. The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’. The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role. For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant. Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate? The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression. From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.
The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance. For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode. Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse? There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture. How can it be refuted?
And what about the issue itself? Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming? If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science. The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection. What sort of chaos would then result? The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.
To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand. In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication. Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised. A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science. Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance. The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas. The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process. Let dialogue commence!
——————-
My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay. The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.
Willis, good critique.
I agree with much of your crit, and have played the devil’s advocate to bring out and tighten the points you want to have addressed. I have advised Jerry by email to step through the thread searching on your name as a first pass filter. I have also been in an email exchange with Jerry and SIlvio Funtowitz this morning on the subjects of definitions and institutional arrogance, and what the WUWT collective think Jerry should cover as a matter of priority in any followup piece. This includes the need for a summary of “Quality” at the top of the list.
Thanks for your time and effort on this. I believe we need to get some kind of dialogue going between the opposing camps in the climate debate, and that this has been a worthwhile exercise. As a result Jerry is about to sing WUWT’s praises in the Guardian, and that’s no bad thing.
More soon, but today is Valentines day, and I’m taking my lady out.
Cheers.
tallbloke (04:54:04) : edit
I wish you and your lady a most marvellous Valentines day, and I wish Jerry Ravetz the best. I think his ideas are wrong and dangerous, but he has had the nerve to post his ideas here, and that gets big props from me. I look forward to his responding to the issues that I and others have raised here.
My best to you,
w.
The situation in Cuba is not due to embargos or old Soviet technology. The sentence for hooking up illegaly to the internet in Cuba is five years in prison, and for writing anything “counter-revolutionary” on a foreign website, the sentence is 20 years. This is germaine to the broader subject of the thread, since we all agree about the importance of the internet, particularly its role in saving science from becoming/remaining nothing but advocacy.
Forget Karl Marx, please! James Madison is better for all of us:
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind of self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves…”
Perhaps herein lies the secret – neither self-government, nor pure scientific inquiry, can survive if the participants do not govern and control themselves. The scientific community should not accept that it is a dependency class, relying on the government to sustain it; this is why so much of it is dysfunctional and entirely useless.
Break a leg on V-day, tallbloke. 😉
Although I’ve been pretty scathing about the viewpoint of Mr. Ravetz I confirm my appreciation for his bravery and honesty in expressing his views here.
I just hope he does eventually appreciate what I humbly believe to be the error of his ways but with such a long past history of emotional and intellectual investment in those ideas any significant backtracking would be very painful and difficult.
Physicist Wal Thornhill has a fitting quote on his website, which I think many here would enjoy:
“Today, for science in particular, electronic communication makes possible communities of individuals from all corners of the world. The most direct evolution toward an enlightened science is for these groups to just go about supporting eachother in doing science free of disproved, official assumptions. Individual survival based on free communication and individual decision making seems the slow but surer method for acheiving both scientific and spiritual enlightenment.” Halton Arp
See where Ravetz’s PNS took the IPCC…
“So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have…Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.” – Stephen Schneider
Here are Scheider’s instructions to lead authors on TAR:
Moss, R.H. and Schneider, S.H., 2000: Uncertainties in the IPCC TAR: Recommendations to lead authors for more consistent assessment and reporting. In: Guidance Papers on the Cross Cutting Issues of the Third Assessment Report of the IPCC [eds. R. Pachauri, T. Taniguchi and K. Tanaka], World Meteorological Organization, Geneva, pp. 33-51]
It is certainly true that “science” itself strives for objective empirical information to test theory and models. But at the same time “science for policy” must be recognized as a different enterprise than “science” itself, since science for policy (e.g., Ravetz, 1986) involves being responsive to policymakers’ needs for expert judgment at a particular time, given the information currently available, even if those judgments involve a considerable degree of subjectivity…one recommendation that should be applied throughout the report is that care should be taken to avoid vague or very broad statements with “medium confidence” that are difficult to support or refute. For example, if we know very little, we often are indifferent to whether climate change will cause a positive or negative response in some variable. In this trivial case, we would actually have at least medium confidence (i.e., near 50%–as defined below in Fig 3) that “warming could alter biodiversity”. That says nothing profound unless we add quantitative modifiers on the amount of warming and the direction and severity of the biodiversity change. The point is to phrase all conclusions so as to avoid nearly indifferent statements based on speculative knowledge.
***if we know very little…[it] says nothing profound unless we add quantitative modifiers…The point is to phrase all conclusions so as to avoid nearly indifferent statements based on speculative knowledge***
Ravetz, J.R. 1986. Usable Knowledge, Usable Ignorance: Incomplete Science with Policy Implications. In Clark and Munn (eds.). Sustainable Development of the Biosphere, New York, Cambridge University Press, pp. 415-432.
AR4 WG III 10.1.5 Robust Decision-making:
The management of uncertainties is not just an academic issue but an urgent task for climate change policy formulation and action. Various vested interests may inhibit, delay, or distort public debate with the result that “procrastination is as real a policy option as any other, and indeed one that is traditionally favoured in bureaucracies; and inadequate information is the best excuse for delay” (Funtowicz and Ravetz, 1990).
Funtowicz and Ravetz have proposed a highly articulated and operational scheme for dealing with the problems of uncertainty and quality of scientific information in the policy context. By displaying qualifying categories of the information–numeral, unit, spread, assessment, and pedigree (NUSAP)–the NUSAP scheme provides a framework for the inquiry and elicitation required to evaluate information quality. By such means it is possible to convey alternative interpretations of the meaning and quality of crucial quantitative information with greater quality and coherence, and thus reduce distortion of its meaning.
***By such means it is possible to convey alternative interpretations of the meaning… of crucial quantitative information***
Hmm…
Post Normal Times doesn’t seem to think that anything at WUWT is worthy of consideration – with the exception of Jerome’s post:
“I will link to wattsupwiththat in the blogroll when I see arguments there that hold water and have not been refuted. Other than part of Jerry’s essay.”
http://www.postnormaltimes.net/blog/archives/2010/02/weather_and_cli.html#comments
Also the recent snow is consistent with GW:
“While no single event proves anything about the climate, the bottom line is, record breaking snowfall we just had in the northeast is what can be expected from record breaking moisture in the atmosphere, which is what can be expected from global warming, which increases evaporation from the oceans.”
One of the references for this theory is Jon Stewart’s Daily Show – maybe irony is part of Post Normal Science?
ScientistForTruth, an outstanding find. I postulated the link between Schneider and Ravetz merely based on the similarity of their claims, but you uncovered the smoking gun. Very well done.
I hope that the good Professor and tallboy and the rest can now see why I find Ravetz’s theories dangerous. I don’t want “alternative interpretations of the meaning … of crucial quatitative information” disguised as science. Just give us the information, and leave out the interpretations. I don’t want “scary scenarios” or “simplified, dramatic statements” in the name of science. Like Jack Friday used to say, “Just the facts, ma’am” …
Your find also shows the similarity with Marxism. Ravetz’s theories, like Marxist theories, sound innocent and beneficial. But in practice, through some strange coincidence, they both seem to end up being “Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools”, as the poet has it …
I don’t know why that should be. I don’t know why Marxist states always seem to end up being totalitarian dictatorships. I don’t know why Ravetz’s theories have ended up being used to totally transform true science into IPCC garbage.
But Professor Ravetz has a huge task in front of him, which is to figure out why that is so. Like Marxism, in practice what he has proposed has turned out to be the exact opposite of what his theory says. Marxism in theory sets the worker free, but in practice the worker ends up enslaved by a totalitarian state. Ravetzism in theory strengthens science, but in practice it turns science into a tool of oppression that the IPCC has used to push a totalitarian agenda (e.g. one world government, massive taxes, control of all aspects of our lives in the name of carbon, destruction of economic development, riding rough-shod over all scientific opposition).
That is the question that I would hope that Professor Ravetz might address — why are Marxism and Ravetzism alike in painting a bright picture of the theoretical future and yet leading to a dark real world outcome …
tallboy, I assume you are keeping the good Professor informed of the progress of this discussion. Please tell him that having worked through his ideas this far, the real and only question that I want answered is the question above. As far as I am concerned, until he is willing to answer that question, he is just blowing smoke. Anything else on his part would be a puerile attempt to peanut butter over the huge crack in his logic, the unknown flaw that in practice leads his theories to kill science rather than make it better. What is that flaw? How can it be fixed? That’s the real question, the crucial question, the only question worth answering.
He wanted an open, public peer-review process for scientific ideas? Someone once said that the greatest tragedy of life is that sooner or later you get what you wish for …
Willis Eschenbach and ScientistForTruth
Post-normal science has nothing to do with science as such. It is a “control” of the scientific method to make it fit a preconceived political notion.
When totalitarian regimes did this for the “common good” or the “good of the state”, history later criticized this as an immoral political subjugation of science.
In his treatise, “The Philosophical Uses of Science”, Philipp Frank discusses how totalitarian regimes deal with science.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iAkAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=science+misused+by+totalitarian+regimes&source=bl&ots=IWv56-wtgJ&sig=w3k8ekAJMW-ri8YMwUUmWV8TZr0&hl=en&ei=Ump4S_D6BJL8tAOBtonLCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Frank points out that in the Third Reich scientists were “prevented from working out their own generalizations, with this task reserved to the teachers of party philosophy”. He quotes a Nazi minister: “Since science is service to truth, it must necessarily be service to National Socialism.”
The author points out that the Soviet Union had a similar attitude toward science. “The party authorities were to decide which scientific contribution could be trusted”.
Frank tells us that these approaches were not that much different from the attitude of the Church toward the Copernican system. They are also not that far off from the “Big Brother knows best” philosophy behind post-normal science.
And to me that is the key problem that makes it unacceptable.
The argument has been made that “we are in a PNS situation”. This smacks very much like the philosophy of the Nazi minister that “science must necessarily be service to National Socialism”.
It is the concept of bastardizing the rules of science in order to “save the Church”, “save the Reich”, “save the (Communist) party” or “save the planet” that sticks in my craw.
To me these arguments are all one and the same.
And they are all based on a basic lie.
Max
tallbloke, Give it up! Get yourself out of actually practicing Post Normal Science yourself, stat!
You asked in response to my points about Cuba’s “universal” healthcare:
Maybe it would make more sense if you quoted what I said.
So here’s your quote:
Literacy level under Castro: 98% Public health provision: universal.
Ok I admit that I did confuse the 98% literacy rate with the 100% ? “universal” public health “provision”. So what? My response was to Cuba’s “universal” healthcare. It still applies, and your quote didn’t help or hurt it to any extent. Then you go right into:
I’ve heard that when big hurricanes are imminent, Cubans have allocated room shares on the other side of the Island, and public transport is provided to get them there. Is this true?
Does this happen on Haiti? Or in Florida?
What does this have to do with Universal Healthcare? Maybe Cuba’s healthcare is better than Haiti’s? Maybe Haiti does have a “univeral provision” for it too. Regardless, so what?
But what does Haiti have to do with anything we’re talking about. Perhaps to show that Cuba is better than Haiti in providing services during and after an earthquake? Or something?
Re: Fla., have you “heard” of any problem at all with evacuating people prior to Hurricaines in Florida? I have not. By the absence of its mention, all I’ve heard from the Press is that in effect the problem does not exist except for some resolute hold outs and those denying the threat involved with Hurricanes by having “Hurricane parties”. I think it’s even illegal to remain in the area after an evacuation order, and that this is also checked by the Police as well as they can.
But in the case of Katrina vs New Orleans, Mayor Ray “School Bus” Nagin instead let the public bus drivers flee prior to Katrina without even taking an empty school bus with them. Also compounding the problem in New Orleans: in the face of a Bush Adm. request, La. Gov. Kathleen Blanco refused to declare the impending Hurricane a Nat. Disaster, or some such, 24 hours before it hit, so that Federal assistance could [not] be put in motion.
Thus the Federal response to Katrina was delayed until the levees had already failed – they were unexpectedly “breached”, not merely “topped”. So, along with the fact that N.O. is below sealevel, the response to this Hurricane was thwarted by the state and city officials responsible for it, and still not evidence that a possibly adequate response didn’t preexist on the Federal level.
Tallbloke, you are succeeding only in showing us the way Post Normal “Science” works! It doesn’t.
Save yourself!
ScientistForTruth (15:58:29) :
Here are Scheider’s instructions to lead authors on TAR:
It is certainly true that “science” itself strives for objective empirical information to test theory and models. But at the same time “science for policy” must be recognized as a different enterprise than “science” itself since science for policy (e.g., Ravetz, 1986) involves being responsive to policymakers’ needs for expert judgment at a particular time, given the information currently available, even if those judgments involve a considerable degree of subjectivity.
Good spot. So there you have it, whatever the IPCC reports are, they are not science. And you show that the person who makes Schneider admit this is none other than good old Jerry Ravetz. Very well done.
Unfortunately your post goes rapidly downhill from there.
***if we know very little…[it] says nothing profound unless we add quantitative modifiers…The point is to phrase all conclusions so as to avoid nearly indifferent statements based on speculative knowledge***
Ravetz, J.R. 1986. Usable Knowledge, Usable Ignorance: Incomplete Science with Policy Implications. In Clark and Munn (eds.). Sustainable Development of the Biosphere, New York, Cambridge University Press, pp. 415-432.
What’s happening here? You have chopped up Schneider’s words with the old journalists trick of connecting parts of what he says with some strategic dots to subtly change the meanng, and then put the reference to Ravetz’ book immediately beneath, so that the casual reader will associate the two.
Very dishonest, Scientist for “truth”.
What happens next? You selectively quote AR4 WGIII selectively quoting Ravetz and Funtowicz to damn them by association, culminating in another chopped up “quote” which removes the word ‘quality’ which Ravetz spends half a book elucidating.
***By such means it is possible to convey alternative interpretations of the meaning… of crucial quantitative information***
You’d make a great report writer for the STASI
Willis Eschenbach (16:59:49) :
ScientistForTruth, an outstanding find. I postulated the link between Schneider and Ravetz merely based on the similarity of their claims, but you uncovered the smoking gun. Very well done.
Very clumsily done. Obviously sneaky enough to sucker you though. Perhaps because you were already looking at the issues in a one sided way, and were easily swayed.
Jerry Ravetz took the trouble to spend time yesterday to write a one page summary of the issues around ‘quality’ for you. But now you say that the only question you want answering is:
why are Marxism and Ravetzism alike in painting a bright picture of the theoretical future and yet leading to a dark real world outcome …
What a crock of crap. In Jerry’s own words:
“I really thought that my examples, of the Reformation and the blogosphere itself, and the references to changing power, made it plain that it’s not at question of the extended peer community being invited by anybody.”
In other words, since you need things spelling out for you, Jerry’s bright vision of the future is that like the illicit vernacular bible printers of old enabling ordinary people to challenge the high church, the blogosphere has enabled the communication of “extended facts, investigative journalism and leaked documents” to blow away the dogma of the IPCC interpretation of normal science without needing to be invited to sit at the policy table.
You are the one who can’t get past his own prejudice and still cling to obsolete political categories and stigma, not 80 year old Jerry Ravetz.
I wish you and your lady a most marvellous Valentines day, and I wish Jerry Ravetz the best. I think his ideas are wrong and dangerous, but he has had the nerve to post his ideas here, and that gets big props from me. I look forward to his responding to the issues that I and others have raised here.
My best to you,
w.
We had an excellent meal, and a wonderful night together.
Thanks for your best wishes.
tb.
tallbloke (23:39:23) :
What you have written is outrageous. The tone, accusations and general discourtesy towards myself and Willis are not good – they are starting to get rather ad hominem.
“…then put the reference to Ravetz’ book immediately beneath, so that the casual reader will associate the two.”
Yes, of course, they are completely associated in the document. (Ravetz 1986) is mentioned in the quote – it is a citation. What is a reader supposed to do? He goes to the bibliography at the back to find the full reference, and that reference is EXACTLY as it is found in the document I quoted. Do you think I’m going to paste the whole document in a comment box? Do you think there’s anything other than exact correspondence between the reference in the body of the text and the citation in the bibliography?! The association is in the document I quoted. Every reader is supposed to associate them – that’s why it’s in Schneider’s document.
And, where is this STASI journalist trick? You are accusing me of dishonesty. I’ve given you the a large portion of text so that the context is evident – you saw it as well, because you’ve quoted it. Here it is again:
“It is certainly true that “science” itself strives for objective empirical information to test theory and models. But at the same time “science for policy” must be recognized as a different enterprise than “science” itself, since science for policy (e.g., Ravetz, 1986) involves being responsive to policymakers’ needs for expert judgment at a particular time, given the information currently available, even if those judgments involve a considerable degree of subjectivity…one recommendation that should be applied throughout the report is that care should be taken to avoid vague or very broad statements with “medium confidence” that are difficult to support or refute. For example, if we know very little, we often are indifferent to whether climate change will cause a positive or negative response in some variable. In this trivial case, we would actually have at least medium confidence (i.e., near 50%–as defined below in Fig 3) that “warming could alter biodiversity”. That says nothing profound unless we add quantitative modifiers on the amount of warming and the direction and severity of the biodiversity change. The point is to phrase all conclusions so as to avoid nearly indifferent statements based on speculative knowledge.”
To suggest I have misrepresented Schneider when I’ve given all that context is, in my opinion, disingenuous. The final extract of this extract I gave (having shown it rather fully FIRST) is really the point of what Schneider is saying in his own words – what is taken out is the example he gives, and this summary:
“if we know very little…[it] says nothing profound unless we add quantitative modifiers…The point is to phrase all conclusions so as to avoid nearly indifferent statements based on speculative knowledge”
is what Schneider means, isn’t it? That’s his POINT isn’t it? ‘If you are ignorant, or have gross uncertainty as to the facts, make sure you write your IPCC report so that you paint a different picture.’
And what’s this all about? “You selectively quote AR4 WGIII selectively quoting Ravetz and Funtowicz” Hey, I’m not going to quote the whole AR4 WGIII document, so, yes, I’m going to ‘selectively quote’. And what do you know, I selectively quote that part that refers to the matter of uncertainty and Ravetz, which is what this post is about. What’s up with that?! In case you missed it, here it is again:
“The management of uncertainties is not just an academic issue but an urgent task for climate change policy formulation and action. Various vested interests may inhibit, delay, or distort public debate with the result that “procrastination is as real a policy option as any other, and indeed one that is traditionally favoured in bureaucracies; and inadequate information is the best excuse for delay” (Funtowicz and Ravetz, 1990).
Funtowicz and Ravetz have proposed a highly articulated and operational scheme for dealing with the problems of uncertainty and quality of scientific information in the policy context. By displaying qualifying categories of the information–numeral, unit, spread, assessment, and pedigree (NUSAP)–the NUSAP scheme provides a framework for the inquiry and elicitation required to evaluate information quality. By such means it is possible to convey alternative interpretations of the meaning and quality of crucial quantitative information with greater quality and coherence, and thus reduce distortion of its meaning.”
That’s taken word for word from AR4 – no ellipses, nothing added, nothing taken away. Having given the WHOLE context I think it’s in order to draw attention to the operative sense. Readers can see from the full quotation whether that’s appropriate or not. There’s nothing STASI about that when I’ve also provided the full contexts.
And what’s all this about ‘guilt by association’? Who introduced the concept of guilt? My comment started off with the words “See where Ravetz’s PNS took the IPCC…” I didn’t say ‘see where Ravetz took the IPCC’, I said ‘see where Ravetz’s PNS took the IPCC’. And so it did. And what I have written is true, because Ravetz’s writings are quoted in both TAR and AR4 as the basis for their dealing with uncertainty. It is evident upon the face of the documents that Ravetz’s philosophy was an important principle in the IPCC reports, and I’m pointing that out. That’s fair game.
Readers can see for themselves whether the points I make are correct. And they will.
As you very well know, my position is that Ravetz’s ideas are dangerous. My position on that is rather clear, and I blew the whistle on Ravetz before this was widely known. Perhaps you would rather I didn’t draw attention to it, but perhaps others are rather grateful that I did. The IPCC has adopted Ravetz’s principles and produced documents that are dangerous. Of course I don’t hold Ravetz ‘guilty’ for all the consequences that ensue, any more than Karl Marx is personally guilty for all the hundreds of millions slaughtered in the name of Marxist socialism. However, both Marx and Ravetz are responsible for the actual theories they propounded, and it is perfectly in order for myself and any other to draw attention to the dangers of them, and the consequences that could ensue if they are enacted. As I’ve mentioned in previous comments, I’m concerned beyond the scope of the climate issue as well – Ravetz has handed tools that he has fashioned to the Greens and Islamists, and the consequences of that in the long term will also be dire.
“methinks the lady doth protest too much”
tallbloke (23:39:23) : edit
And also unfortunately for you, that is more than enough to make his point. Regardless of what SFT says below, that’s plenty to show the connection between Ravetz and Schneider, which was the point. Since you denied the connection above, I can see why it might bother you … but the connection between them is real. Your cavilling at the use of ellipsis cannot change that.
…
Yeah, I’m a fool and an idiot who is easily swayed …
So, you are saying that there is no connection between Schneider and Ravetz? That Schneider was not including Scneider in his instructions to lead authors? Or what? All that I was “suckered” or “swayed” into was the confirmation of what I had only suspected from textual clues. This was the idea that Ravetz was one of Schneider’s inspirations. Not a bad guess for a sucker to make from so little information, huh?
In addition, his quote highlighted that Ravetz’s ideas were part of the farrago that is the IPCC. Nothing that you have said changes that in any way, you are grasping at straws.
So sue me. When the facts change, I change my opinions. What do you do, sir?
Yes, I’m still interested in quality. But I realized in the course of the discussion that in fact there was a more important issue, the one I list above. Should I ignore that because I didn’t realize it on day one? And while the one page summary sounds interesting … where is it, ya big tease?
It’s not at question? What’s not at question? Or does he mean “it’s not a question”. But if so, where is the “extended peer community” being invited? Why would they be invited there by “anybody”? Who should they be invited by? What does the Reformation have to do with “the extended peer community being invited by anybody”? That makes no absolutely no sense. I won’t call it a crock of crap, but it is totally impenetrable. How about he tries again, because that paragraph is lacking in internal logical connections.
Stop being condescending. I ask for an explanation, and you say I “need things spelled out” for me? You can crawl back to your ivory tower if that’s the kind of insults you want to sling around.
I understand that you and Jerry think that his “bright vision” has allowed us to blow the IPCC dogma away. I, on the other hand, think that Jerry’s “bright vision” is the reason that the IPCC is still there, is so strong, and is not “blown away” at all. His “bright vision” is the reason that we have the dogma.
Call me crazy, but when Schneider cites Ravetz in his instructions to the IPCC lead authors, I get the idea that Ravetzism is not being used in my favour. I get the idea that Ravetzism is suffering the same black transformation of Marxism, from a bright vision to an ugly reality.
Ooooh, vague allegations of wrongdoing, I love those. Just what “obsolete political categories and stigma” am I clinging to? Are you referring to my claim that Marxism has killed a hundred million people or so? It is definitely a stigma, a hundred million dead … but I don’t cling to it. Neither do I forget it. But that’s the beauty of vague allegations, maybe you weren’t talking about that at all.
Moving once again past the inuslts, I’m just asking a bozo question. What is it about following Ravetz’s and Schneider’s instructions to the letter that has turned the IPCC from what was supposed to be a scientific venture into a totalitarian nightmare?
I say it is because when we stop talking about “science” and we start talking about “quality” and “alternative interpretations of the meaning … of crucial quatitative information” and “scary stories”, it opens the door to a very ugly power grab. I understand that that is not Ravetz’s “bright vision”, but that’s what actually has happened. To contrast it with the “bright vision”, let’s call it Ravetz’s “dark blindness”. In the name of the “dark blindness” calling for “alternative interpretations”, we get the IPCC “interpretations” of Michael Mann and Phil Jones and the unindicted co-conspirators. Thanks a lot, Jerry, you’ve been a big help.
Anyhow, I’m still waiting for Jerry to say a single word. No, that’s not right, you’ve just given us an unintelligible paragraph of his. But other than that I’m still waiting. Now he wants to bitch about how he “thought he made it plain”, you want to claim that I need things to be “spelled out for me”, you say he actually wrote a page but you don’t show a word of it … this is the brave new world of “the extended peer community not being invited by anybody”? This is the bright vision, and I’m just too dumb to get it?
He wrote a page? … ooooh, be still my beating heart. In the same time I’ve written twenty pages on this thread, plus keeping my other threads going, plus holding down my day job. And when people don’t seem to get it, I generally just write it again, I don’t say “I thought I made it plain”.
Obviously, neither of you guys gets out enough. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Science is a blood sport, if you want to whine about how “I thought I made it plain”, I advise that you take up knitting or write Marxist polemics or something. Ravetzism calls for a dialog, but to do that, he’s got to come out of his shell and tend his thread.
Let me put this a different way. I like the idea of an extended group of people being free to comment on and find fault with scientific ideas. And we have that, the web has allowed that to take place. That’s the good part of Ravetzism. But it’s not a “bright vision of the future” as you claim, it’s in the past, done and done. And it did not happen because of a change in philosphy, or because of Ravetzical bright visions. It has come about purely because of a technological change, like the printing press. The “bright vision” had nothing to do with it. There’s a paradox for you, the good part of Ravetzism has nothing to do with Ravetzism …
On the other hand, I don’t like the idea of “alternative interpretations of the meaning … of crucial quatitative information”. I don’t want “scary scenarios” or “simplified, dramatic statements”. I don’t want scientists to be making shit up no matter how high quality it might be. I don’t care to be lectured on uncertainty by someone who doesn’t mention significant digits. That’s the part of Ravetz’s ideas that is a ticking time bomb. That’s the “dark blindness”, the opposite of the “bright vision”, the blindness promulgated and championed by the IPCC, the one that has captured and enslaved climate science.
Since the IPCC is a bastion of Ravetz’s ideas, and since he was totally “duped” by them, if Ravetz is an ethical scientist he will give up theorising until he solves that problem. He will do nothing but examine his ideas to see how and why they were hijacked. Because until he solves that problem, if he just keeps pushing the same story, they will be hijacked again and again.
He needs to change them in some as yet unknown way so that once again they can be the “bright vision”. I agree with him that a new vision of science in the public sphere is needed. I just don’t like what has happened when his “bright vision” has come on the scene, because it has kicked science to the curb in a beer-hall putsch, broken every window in town, and declared itself the arbiter of everything. In other words, it has been the inspiration for the IPCC and all its excesses. Until that is fixed, I’m not interested. That’s why I asked him to answer the question above.
ScientistForTruth (03:26:56) :
What you have written is outrageous. The tone, accusations and general discourtesy towards myself and Willis are not good – they are starting to get rather ad hominem.
I’ll leave it for others to decide who has been busy with the accusations and general discourtesy and ad hominem attacks, but I note that those who like to dish it out aren’t very good at taking it back.
“methinks the lady doth protest too much”
Indeed.
Willis Eschenbach (03:57:29) :
And also unfortunately for you, that is more than enough to make his point. Regardless of what SFT says below, that’s plenty to show the connection between Ravetz and Schneider.
Schneider mentions a Ravetz work from 14 years earlier and you judge them as co-conspirators. Oh well. Maybe you’re right. I’ll ask Jerry if he’s conversed with Schneider.
Jerry Ravetz’ shortened piece has been printed in the grauniad.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/cif-green/2010/feb/15/science-conflict-resolution
I’m sure you’ll find plenty more to get frothed about there. Happy hunting.
tallbloke (09:21:12) :
Co-conspirators? Hey, you don’t have to be in touch with Karl Marx beyond the grave to be a Marxist. The issue is not whether Schneider and Ravetz were buddies but that IPCC imported Ravetz’s philosophy, tools and methods. I’ve demonstrated it in AR4 and TAR in a previous comment. What about the SAR? Yes, Ravetz’s PNS philosophy and methodology was alive and well in there as well.
T.M. Saloranta’s checked that out in 2001: “POST-NORMAL SCIENCE AND THE GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUE” (Climatic Change 50: 395–404, 2001):
“Funtowicz and Ravetz (1992, 1993) argue that in this case traditional ‘Normal’ science (described by Kuhn (1970)) becomes inappropriate and that science should become ‘Post-Normal’ in order to more effectively cope with these contemporary
problems. The philosophy, or methodology, of Post-Normal Science is briefly introduced and its correlation with the climate change issue, specifically with the compilation process and summary content of the Second Assessment Report (SAR) from the Working Group I of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC, 1996a), is viewed. It seems that climate science around IPPC can, to a relatively large extent, be characterized as ‘Post-Normal’.”
So Ravetz’s PNS was in SAR, TAR and AR4.
tallbloke, thanks as always for your response.
Lets look at the developments here. Based solely on a few scraps of his writing, I theorized that Stephen Schneider’s view of science had been corrupted by the views of Ravetz. I had no evidence of that at all, merely the similarity of their pernicious ideas.
However, it turns out that Schneider thought so highly of Ravetz’s ideas that he cited them as how the IPCC lead authors should approach their work.
I call my insight into Schnieder’s way of thinking a stunning success. It was a falsifiable theory which was completely confirmed in the real world.
Now, based solely on the fact that the Ravetz work cited by Schneider was over a decade old, you claim … you claim … what? You claim that they are not “co-conspiritors”, which is a huge straw man, nobody here said they were co-conspiritors. I said that Schneider had been heavily influenced by Ravetz, and I was proven right. Doesn’t matter if Ravetz has conversed with Schneider, that’s a red herring.
The point is that with Schneider at the helm, Ravetz methods became central to the IPCC method (torture the data until it confesses) … and we see how well that has gone.
Now we have your link to Ravetz in the Grauniad, and just like here, he says nothing about the (mis)use of his work by the IPCC. He’s all sunshine and flowers, in the best Marxist theoretical tradition. He makes absolutely no mention of how his work has been used to justify the biggest scientific fraud of the century, oh, no, that doesn’t get spoken of in civilised circles, that would be far too crude for an Oxford professor to mention. Instead, it is all about how citizens becoming involved will save science and the like.
But the truth is far from sunshine and flowers. Ravetz’s corruption of the scientific method is not the solution, it is the problem. It is Ravetzian theory that has been cited by the IPCC to justify substituting prejudice and scary stories for scientific facts and conclusions. And regarding that, Ravetz says nothing.
And that, in my book, is highly unethical … but it is perfectly consistent with Ravetzian principles. He is applying his own principles to his description of his own work. Where there are ugly parts, he substitutes simplified, dramatic statements, and makes little mention of any doubts he might have.
Which, of course, is a direct quote from Stephen Schneider. Professor Ravetz, do us all a favour. Tell us your doubts. Don’t just give us the good news. Give us the bad news as well. Discuss how your ideas led to the philosophical excesses of the IPCC, and what that means for your theories.
Because wandering around scattering your petals of wisdom, giving us your “bright visions of the future”, doesn’t cut it when your ideas have been used to suppress scientific discussion. When your ideas have been used to shut me out of the debate, AS THEY HAVE BEEN USED BY THE IPCC, you owe me an explanation of how that happened. At that point, your continued strewing of petals is an insult to honest ethical scientists like myself who have been confined and damaged by your ideas.
And more than that, you need to understand why your ideas have led to that ugly result, and how to stop it from happening in future. Once again, in the Guardian piece, you present Ravetzian theory as the solution to the problem of pseudo-science run amok, rather than what it has been in the real world – the cause of pseudo-science run amok.
Until you speak directly to that issue, I fear that your vote is cancelled on my planet. Sorry, but that’s how real science works. A real scientist explains all of the implications of his theories, not just the sunshiny bright vision part. You have to explain the dark side as well. Your continued Pollyanna insistence that all is for the best in this, the best of all post normal worlds, no longer cuts it.
We have seen the practical, ugly, anti-scientific, real world results of the implementation of your theories by the IPCC. Talk about that, or forever hold your peace. Because I do not care to be lectured about freedom by the man whose theories put me and so many others in a scientific jail. When you do that, it just angrifies the inmates’ blood.
Doesn’t have to be that way, your theories don’t have to end up being misused. But they are being misused, in an ugly totalitarian fashion, to suppress real science.
And Professor Ravetz, for you not to even mention that huge issue is ethical cowardice and scientific malfeasance of the highest order.
Jerry Ravetz’ shortened piece has been printed in the grauniad.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/cif-green/2010/feb/15/science-conflict-resolution
I’m sure you’ll find plenty more to get frothed about there. Happy hunting.
No, instead you just need to face yourself and wonder why a guy like you who is apparently scientifically competent wants to destroy that competence.
manacker (18:26:04):
Thankyou. Yes, you are right, and I am posting this to draw attention to what you wrote and, hopefully, to add constructive comment.
In the above discussion I have repeatedly asserted (e.g. at (07:04:13) that:
“PNS is an attempt to replace science with political ideology. Science and politics interact (in both directions) but they should not be mixed. Those who value science will fight to keep it as independent as possible from political interference.”
Everything in this discussion has confirmed my view of this. And your posting explains it clearly.
But I remind of two points.
Firstly, as my response at (07:04:13) to tallbloke said,
“Yes, but these “two problems” are the same problem and it has always existed. Simply, scientists need funds and they need to get sponsors who will provide those funds if they are to do their science. Hence, the science that most gets done is that which can obtain rich sponsors.”
The sponsors are governments (e.g. Greeks funding Archimedes), businesses (e.g. oil companies funding geologists), and rich individuals (e.g. Richard Branson funding rocket scientists).
Lone individuals with little or no sponsors can break through and they sometimes have dramatic effects (e.g. a patents clerk and two brothers who sold bicycles), but they have always been exceptions.
Changing the nature of science cannot change the problem. And adjusting science to become ‘post normal science’ (PNS) can only make it worse because the views of ‘stakeholders’ will shout down the findings of the rare lone individuals. Indeed, as the Climategate emails demonstrate, this has happened in the PNS of climatology.”
A subsequent posts by ScientistFor Truth confirmed that “this has happened in the PNS of climatology” and proved that its occurrence was deliberately imposed on the basis of the publications of Prof Ravetz concerning PNS.
In other words, the result is as Willis Eschenbach (10:56:53) says;
“But the truth is far from sunshine and flowers. Ravetz’s corruption of the scientific method is not the solution, it is the problem. It is Ravetzian theory that has been cited by the IPCC to justify substituting prejudice and scary stories for scientific facts and conclusions. And regarding that, Ravetz says nothing.”
Secondly, the various discussions (above) concerning Marxism deflect from the importance of the need to keep science as unaffected by political interference as possible.
I remind that I wrote at (03:25:49):
“So, D Patterson is right when he says;
“Yes, Ravetz would definitely have been more believable with respect to at least some topics of philosophy and science if he did not use Marxist wording and phrasing, Marxist theories, and Marxist debating methods in support of political causes included in the objectives of Marxist political organizations.”
Such language and causes are a negation of science. They attempt to distort the scientific observations, interpretations and ideas into tools for support of the political causes and, thus, they inhibit improving understanding of the mechanisms of the physical world. In other words, political language distorts communication and/or development of the scientific observations, interpretations and ideas and so distorts any attempt to gain improving understanding of the mechanisms of the physical world. The distortion provides e.g. Lysenkoism.
Please note that my above comments are true whatever the ideological, pecuniary and/or religious philosophy being promoted by the distortion of scientific language (I should state that I am both a socialist and a Christian).”
Not all socialist are Marxists (I am a socialist but not a Marxist), and some anti-socialists are self-proclaimed Marxists (e.g. David Wojick).
Socialism began with the Tolpduddle Martyrs long before Marx claimed that he was describing it and how to impose it. And several posters here have accurately reported the many horrific effects that have resulted from the claims of Marx.
Tallbloke admits that the effects of funding and politics on science are not new (I pointed out that they were experienced by Archimedes):but that Prof Ravetz claims to be describing them and how to address them. For example at (04:44:03) tallbloke writes:
“PNS doesn’t cause this to happen. PNS is the description of what is happening, and the practical outcome of the processes PNS theory describes is employed by both sides in the battle.”
But the IPCC demonstrates that the (descriptive?) writings of Prof Ravetz are as misguided as those of Marx.
PNS distorts science so it stops being a search for ‘truth’ but is transformed into a tool to advocate political, ideological and/or pecuniary interests. That is wrong whatever the merits of the interests that are advocated.
So, adopting the assertions in either of the writings of Marx or of Prof Ravtez inevetably leads to unacceptable consequences.
In my opinion, a clear summation of all the problems with PNS can be obtained by reading the comments that Willis has posted here.
Richard
I find Ravetz’s added remarks – cited by J.Peden – to be much improved. Or shrewder. Take your choice.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/cif-green/2010/feb/15/science-conflict-resolution
Certainly the tone is milder. Nothing to froth about in it,
Revetz wisely removed his own strong belief in AGW. It shouldn’t have been in his first essay.
And his concerns abpit Climategate discrediting Science are muted. It has no hint of a manifesto; No New World Order will be marching to the drumbeat of Post Normal.
“participation” is the word that caught my eye.
I hope Randall opens a new thread about that essay.
Willis Eschenbach (10:56:53) :
tallbloke, thanks as always for your response.
Now, based solely on the fact that the Ravetz work cited by Schneider was over a decade old, you claim … you claim … what?
….
I said that Schneider had been heavily influenced by Ravetz, and I was proven right.
You said there was a connection between them, which was a bit ambiguous.You have now clarified that to say Ravetz was an influence on Schneider. I was just pointing out that there is too wide a seperation in the timeframe to infer that they discussed these things. You think that Ravetz’ ideas are “wrong and dangerous” which is one thing. It’s another to say Ravetz is to blame for the use Schneider made of his ideas and the whole of the IPCC bollocks.
The over-extension of scientific facts by science grandees isn’t a new phenomenon which arrived with ravetz. If Ravetz had been a gardener and never written down his perceptions about the way science and policy works after the outputs of normal science have been gathered together for the policy debate, Schneider wouldn’t have said “Oh, the jigs up, we can’t find a justification for our intended policy”. No. He’d have found some other poor sap’s work on qualifying the unquantifiable to use.
Now Jerome Ravetz doesn’t get off scott free in my book, given the power of his insights into error bars and GIGO back in ’97. However, there are plenty of other normal scientists out there taking paychecks for work they know to be based on an agenda which is a lie, and are keeping their heads down.
A few posts ago, you said that although you disagreed with Jerry’s analysis, you gave him props for being brave enough to come here, stick his head above the parapet, and have coconuts heaved at him. I imagine there are some number of scientists out there who want to do the same, but are fearful of the reception they are going to get.
I’d like to think that WUWT is going to become a place where thinkers and scientists will want to congregate for some sanity amongst the mayhem, and that we will get the benefit of their expertise and knowledge to help reformulate and improve our theories about climate. We wouldn’t expect them to try to browbeat us with their publication history, since a lot of it is a load of old cobblers anyway. But they won’t want to be continually cudgelled by us for their past errors either, so the only way is forward really.
Just some thoughts, I’m not trying to ‘refute’ or ‘rebutt’ you. I understand your anger at being thwarted by the Stephen Schneider Church of Climate Orthodoxy, and by extention, your anger at Ravetz for being, as you percieve it, the provider of the chariot he drove through the scientific method.
Pacis et Lux
tb.
I deeply appreciate all of the views posted here about the views of Oxford Professor Jerome Ravetz on “post-normal science”.
I am not very clever, but neither am I impressed by this disarming chap’s advocacy of “post-normal science.”
On his web site ‘Post-Normal Science’ is defined as a “mode of scientific problem-solving appropriate to policy issues where facts are uncertain, values in dispute, stakes high and decisions urgent.”
http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/biog.html
In my opinion there is absolutely no “mode of scientific problem-solving appropriate to policy issues where facts are uncertain, values in dispute, stakes high and decisions urgent”, . . .
Other than TRUTH. Absolutely none!
Climategate confirms that.
That’s how it looks in the Show-Me state,
Oliver K. Manuel,
Emeritus Professor of
Nuclear & Space Science
Former NASA PI for Apollo
ScientistForTruth (10:50:56) :
tallbloke (09:21:12) :
Co-conspirators? Hey, you don’t have to be in touch with Karl Marx beyond the grave to be a Marxist.
True, and you don’t have to be drinking buddies with Nick Griffin to be a British National Party supporter either.
Neither fact has anything to do with science, so let’s drop the politics.
tallbloke (13:28:01) : edit
Likely very true … but being able to point to the imprimatur of an authentic Oxford Professor’s work, and being able to cite that work in the IPCC instructions, gives a lovely glossy patina of accuracy and legitimacy to an otherwise ugly enterprise.
And if he’d been a gardener, he would have no share of the blame for the IPCC fiasco. But he’s not, so he does have a share.
Yeah, that old “tu quoque” argument never loses its charm, does it? I don’t care if other scientists are telling lies and keeping their heads down. All that does is that it makes Ravetz’s actions a shabby, prosaic, commonplace crime rather than a interesting, unique crime.
If you are “fearful of the reception you are going to get”, you should not be a scientist. I can’t tell you the abuse I’ve taken for my scientific posts. I’m called a liar and worse on a regular basis … so what? That’s why I coined the term “Science is a blood sport”. That’s why I quote Truman, “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.” That’s science, and has always been. Read the papers from the 1700s and 1800s, no holds barred.
I do give him props. The main problem that I have with this thread, tb, is that Ravetz hasn’t come back to defend his ideas. He’s the one that’s talking about the new, interactive, citizen driven science … but where is Citizen Ravetz? In his absence, what we have to talk about are not his current insights on his work, but his past work.
And that past work, unfortunately, has been used to justify what has been the biggest scientific totalitarian regime in modern history. That regime, the “climate consensus” and the IPCC, has used his work to justify standing science on its head in the toilet.
How is that not relevant? Yes, the ideas are some years old by now … so what? It’s not like age has mellowed them or sapped their strength or made them less dangerous and subversive. In fact, it’s the opposite. The modern (ab)users of his ideas can now point to a long and glorious history of his ideas, and their adoption by everyone from Stephen Schneider to the IPCC, as a reason to believe them.
And as far as I can see (which admittedly is not all that far) Ravetz has not done what any responsible scientist would do if he saw his ideas being used to deny and distort science. He has not stopped his advocacy of his theory until he found and fixed what is obviously wrong. He has not set himself the task of analysing, not the intersection of science and politics that he has historically analyzed, but the huge overlap of his theory and what I might call “scientific totalitarianism”.
His work has been cited and used to totally pervert science into something very, very dark and vicious and ugly … why is this of no interest to him? If my theories were being used like that, I’d be screaming about it at the top of my lungs … he, on the other hand, just mumbles something under his breath about how he was duped and goes back to telling us how brilliant his theory is. Colour me unimpressed.
When Ravetz comes out with a paper entitled “The Flaws In My Theory That Allowed It To Be Distorted By IPCC Knaves”, with the subtitle “And How My Congenital Marxist Blindness Kept Me From Noticing I Was Getting Reamed”, we can talk about that. At that point, he will have earned the respect of every honest scientist.
Until then, he’s just another craven apologist in my book …
And to you as well, tb. You are the man in the middle, I don’t envy you …
tallbloke (13:45:19) :
ScientistForTruth (10:50:56) :
tallbloke (09:21:12) :
“Co-conspirators? Hey, you don’t have to be in touch with Karl Marx beyond the grave to be a Marxist.”
True, and you don’t have to be drinking buddies with Nick Griffin to be a British National Party supporter either.
Neither fact has anything to do with science, so let’s drop the politics.
………
It wasn’t a political point at all, and I see you’ve misunderstood the issue in the post to Willis as well. The point is that you don’t have to communicate with a person to embrace their philosophy. I said in my comment that Ravetz can’t be blamed for all the damage under Ravetzism any more than Marx (or substitute any other influential person) can be blamed for all the havoc that’s ensued under Marxism. However, Ravetz does have to take responsibility for applying PNS to climate change. This was a point I made to you last year. He HIMSELF (I can quote you the references if you want) says that his philosophy applies to the climate issue. When both Ravetz and Schneider (whether they discussed the matter or not), as well as others say that PNS (Ravetz’s idea) applies to climate and PNS is used in the climate assessments then it is significant.
In fact PNS is deeply embedded in the IPCC process at least as far back as the SAR, as I mentioned in a previous post. Saloranta’s paper (which cites seven papers by Ravetz) “POST-NORMAL SCIENCE AND THE GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUE” (Climatic Change 50: 395–404, 2001) states:
“The concept of Post-Normal Science was first formulated in the mid-80s and has since then matured into an insight; a rigorous definition of its content would be against its message (Ravetz and Funtowicz, 1999).”
(I really don’t like that – it sounds like quackery: “a rigorous definition of its content would be against its message”, citing Ravetz and Funtowicz, 1999, ‘Post-Normal Science – An Insight Now Maturing’. Futures 31, 641–646.)
“…the compilation process of the WG I SAR and the content
of its summaries obviously correlate with the philosophy of Post-Normal Science. A related empirical study of Bray and von Storch (1999) speaks to the same direction: Post-Normal Science seem to be generally at play in the contemporary climate science.”
“…it was noted that Funtowicz and Ravetz’s (1992, 1993) attributes for Post-Normal Science are fulfilled in the climate change issue. Then, the SAR (IPCC, 1996a) from the WG I of the IPCC was taken as an example of how the philosophy of Post-Normal Science is reflected in practice in the science of global climate. This example showed that the main elements of Post-Normal Science…can indeed be recognized in the SAR content and compilation process…it suggests that the climate science around IPPC can to a relatively large extent be characterized as ‘Post-Normal’.”
The Ravetz papers cited are:
Funtowicz, S. O. and Ravetz, J. R.: 1992, ‘The Emergence of Post-Normal Science’, in von Schomberg, R. (ed.), Science, Politics and Morality, Kluwer Academic Publishers, Dordrecht, pp. 85–123.
Funtowicz, S. O. and Ravetz, J. R.: 1993, ‘Science for the Post-Normal Age’, Futures 25, 739–755.
ScientistForTruth (15:41:49) :
It wasn’t a political point at all
Fine. I just don’t remember too many of your posts in this thread which didn’t contain the term Marxist. But hey, we all have things we like to bang on about. My favourite is how planetary motions affect the Sun and Earth. Let me bore you with it sometime.
Some poor sap from the labour party rang me this evening to ask about my voting intentions in the forthcoming election. He couldn’t wait to get off the phone after I took him to task about higher education cuts, health cuts, the money being poured down the climate hole… He told me he knew about climate science. Big mistake. 🙂
Keep digging for the references, I’m sure it’ll turn up some interesting associated information about the IPCC policy making process.