Climategate: Plausibility and the blogosphere in the post-normal age.

I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony

Guest post by Jerome Ravetz

At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information.  Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’  of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions.  We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.

Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real.  Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State.  This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions.  In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open.  If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices.  I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.

There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification.  In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable.  It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.).  When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute.  It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science.  The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.

We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case.  This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time.  Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming.  There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation.  Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2  had always previously been at or below that starting level).  Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.

In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one.  It seems that several causes conspired.  First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position.  Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal.  And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged.  It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message.  As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’.  Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.

Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us.  But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working.  Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective.  The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics.  The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab.  If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends.  The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs.  Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.

In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended.  Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3.  The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified.  Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six.  And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems.  As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards!  In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.

Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough.  So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world.  Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science.  And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision.  Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.

As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused.  In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science.  But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore.  We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’.  This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure.  Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet.  Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort.  All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed.  As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate.  Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.

Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere.  Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound.  By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course.  The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold.  For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’.  Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust.  Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’.  And then came the e-mails.

We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming.  Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits:  facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent.  In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt.  The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling.  What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.

Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse.  The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way.  Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance.  And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound?  The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped.  I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair.  But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).

Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed.  Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited.  Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost.  To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical.  For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community.  In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm.  In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance.  We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved.  Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation.  Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise.  And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation.  This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems.  The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.

The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls.  It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures.  Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment.  This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now.  A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty.  But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.

To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere.  The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme.  Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.

The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested.  To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey.  There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes.  The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened.  The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace.  The Climategate affair shows the  importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.

The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’.  And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means.  With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing.  But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries.  The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources.  With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly.  As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages.  Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions.  In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses.  The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty.  The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.

Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted.  It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse.  The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known.  But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science.  The  blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains.  Some parts are quite mainstream, others not.  The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other.  Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time.  Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com).  Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature.  Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.

Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere.  Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously.  And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised.  Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses.  But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different.  I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.

There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts.  The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’.  The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role.  For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant.  Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate?  The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression.  From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.

The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance.  For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode.  Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse?  There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture.  How can it be refuted?

And what about the issue itself?  Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming?  If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science.  The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection.  What sort of chaos would then result?  The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.

To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand.  In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication.  Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised.  A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science.  Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance.  The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas.  The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process.  Let dialogue commence!

——————-

My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay.  The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.

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tallbloke
February 13, 2010 7:40 am

Scientist A says something like, “I am a Ph.D. in whatever-ology, a Professor at an
accredited University, with 173 publications in peer-reviewed journals, and I tell you that
the toxicity indicator in question has a value of forty-two, which by international
standards is Safe!” Scientist B then takes the stand, gives his pedigree, and claims that
the indicator has a value of seventy-six, which is Dangerous. Or vice-versa. And then
we speak of “hired guns” doing “junk science” for whatever vested interest provides
them with comfort, ideological or financial. And if that sort of debate were to become
the norm, we would be well along the way to the debasement of scientific quality. Then,
the careful research that is either irrelevant or unwelcome to strong vested interests,
would be starved out by the sort that provides instant gratification to a clientele, however
spurious and meretricious it might be.
If there were any doubt in your minds up to this point, it should now be clear that
I am not simply indulging in philosophical exercises about truth and uncertainty.

http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/essays/e06uncertain.pdf

tallbloke
February 13, 2010 7:59 am

Richard S Courtney (07:04:13) :
PNS is an attempt to replace science with political ideology. Science and politics interact (in both directions) but they should not be mixed. Those who value science will fight to keep it as independent as possible from political interference.
Richard

There’s that word should again. I entirely agree with you, but the brute fact of the situation is that politics does interfere with science, and instead of pretending it doesn’t we need to grasp the nettle and deal with the issue.
I think the contention is that science beyond the lab door already went PNS before Ravetz came along to descibe the phenomenon. Having analysed it, he is demanding that when the outputs of science indicate that ‘facts are uncertain’, and ‘values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions (apparently) urgent’ those who have the ‘extended facts, outputs of investigative journalism and leaked documents’ have a right to be at the policy making table as well as the experts and politicians.
What’s not to like?
Now it may be that the politicians will attempt to exclude those groups whose conclusions are opposed to the policy thay want to push, but I don’t think you can blame Ravetz for that.

Roger Knights
February 13, 2010 9:02 am

Charles Higley (17:04:13) :
I believe that it is mistake to think that a refutation of the basic and flawed assumption so AGW would hurt science or “the science.”
………..
Vinceo (16:48:26) :
Whilst it is certainly the case that the reputations of many involved in that collection of natural and applied sciences labeled “climate science” would be ruined, the widespread increased appreciation of the importance of skepticism in science would lead to a strengthening of science in society, rather than the reverse.

After leading us on this chase after a will of’ the wisp, the reputation of science as “a candle in the dark” will take a tremendous hit, like that of the credit rating agencies that put their rubber stamp on toxic assets:

Alan Wilkinson (01:23:32) :
My view: Science generally will wear the impact of public disillusionment with AGW. The learned societies that fell over themselves to join “The Consensus” have ensured that outcome.
………..
Bryan (00:34:11) :
Another unbelievable happening (that happened) was when all the major credit rating agencies gave AAA status to total junk thus causing the greatest financial dislocation for the last 80 years.
…………….
Basil:
The real problem, here, is that science has become too full of itself.

Yes. And much of the fault for its being puffed up lies with science fans in the scientistic “skeptical” magazines who so strongly pushed the line that science tends to be self-correcting, and that the scientific method is so trustworthy, that scientists, science journalists, and the public concluded that science is virtually infallible when a large, emphatic, multi-decadal, and consensus speaks officially on an important topic. They’ve really put their foot in it.

Roger Knights
February 13, 2010 9:54 am

stephen richards (01:19:02) :
Willis: Many years ago when I was a research scientist I read a paper about jargon and its uses. Prof Ravetz lives in a world whose existence depends wholly on jargon. Philosophy by its very nature is bullshit wrapped in jargon but if you unwrap the package and rummage through the bullshit you will invariably find a nugget or two of useful thinking.

It’s a “curate’s egg”: excellent in parts.

February 13, 2010 10:58 am

tallguy says: “I think the contention is that science beyond the lab door already went PNS before Ravetz came along to descibe the phenomenon. Having analysed it, he is demanding that when the outputs of science indicate that ‘facts are uncertain’, and ‘values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions (apparently) urgent’ those who have the ‘extended facts, outputs of investigative journalism and leaked documents’ have a right to be at the policy making table as well as the experts and politicians.
What’s not to like?”
What’s not to like, indeed? Just what the Trojans muttered to each other when faced with that beautifully crafted equine statue – feel the grain, superb! – which that charming fellow Odysseus had so graciously left behind as a memorial of their heroic resistance to Greek aggression. And look, it’s even got wheels, the better to move it through the gates. How thoughtful!
Sometimes, tallguy, it is very necessary to look a gift horse in the mouth!

Zeke the Sneak
February 13, 2010 1:03 pm

2)How is Marx to be held responsible for the actions of others which took place after his death?
The difficulty lies in how to get private property and production into collective ownership. That’s the rub, glad I could help! Zeke the Sneak

Editor
February 13, 2010 1:13 pm

tallbloke (06:01:03) : edit

Willis, you said:

tallbloke, when Ravetz says:
… the goal of achievement of truth or at least of factual knowledge, must be substantially modified. In post-normal conditions, such products may be a luxury, indeed an irrelevance.
he is clearly not talking about the “meta-level”.

On further reflection, he is talking about the meta level. Look at his definition of ‘post normal conditions’.
‘Facts uncertain, decisions urgent etc’. These discussions take place at the policy table beyond the lab.

As near as I can tell, the “meta-level” of science is called “politics”. Are you truly claiming that people look for the “achievement of truth”, or for “factual knowledge”, in politics? Because that is what we get if your claim is correct.
I say that the only place in science where we look for truth and facts is in the lab, real or metaphorical … but I guess YMMV …

Editor
February 13, 2010 1:17 pm

Mike (03:55:04)

In principle a complete model of particle physics should be able to explain everything that happens in the universe. In principle it should be able to predict today’s weather 100 years hence.

Actually, the overthrowing of this “mechanistic” claim was on of the great scientific advances of this century. The theory of chaos shows that it may not be possible, even in principle, to predict weather a hundred years from now. A minor point, which does not invalidate your thesis, but I couldn’t let it pass unchallenged.

Editor
February 13, 2010 1:36 pm

Mike (03:55:04)

As for dangerous ideas. Well, referring to Lysenko hardly constitutes scientific evidence of a causal link or mechanism between ideas on the one hand, and killings on the other. Ideas don’t kill people, people kill people. A plattitude, I know, but obviously true nevertheless. The is a considerable body of evidence that the exact nature of ideas bear no relation to preparedness to kill. Group dynamics and cognitive mechanisms are much more important. Also well known are the experiments showing that most normal people can quite easily be made to harm others. Ideology is largely irrelevant.

In just about every country where Marxism has been the dominant state ideology, millions of people have been killed by the resulting police state. I can’t think of a single exception, although there may have been one. Russia and China and Cambodia and Vietnam and North Korea and Bulgaria and East Germany, all have all first gone Marxist, and then gone postal on their own citizens. Murders and massacres and forced starvation and “re-education camps” and the killing of people as “intellectuals” because they wore glasses, the list goes on and on.
And despite the fact that these countries had totally different races and ethnic groups and languages and cultures and histories, you want to claim that it is just a coincidence, that the “ideology [Marxism] is largely irrelevant”? Really? That’s your explanation? That’s your final answer? Coincidence?
Because me, I believe the old saw that “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it’s enemy action.”
Next, I did not bring up Lysenko as an example of a “causal link” between ideas and killings. I brought it up as an example of the danger to free scientific thought that is posed by Marxism and “quality”. The danger is not only killing. It is that science stops being a search for truth, and becomes a search for “quality” as it is defined by the power structure. Lysenko is an example of science perverted by Marxism to serve the ideology … that’s the danger that I see in the work of Ravetz.

Stephen Wilde
February 13, 2010 1:39 pm

“The difficulty lies in how to get private property and production into collective ownership. That’s the rub, glad I could help! Zeke the Sneak.”
Yes, and ‘collective ownership’ turns out to be a self appointed elite using force to maintain their wealth and power and seeing everything they do however damaging, cruel or deadly as action ‘for the greater good’ which is in turn solely defined by that elite using the bits of science that suit them whether it turns out to be sound science or not.

Editor
February 13, 2010 1:44 pm

tallbloke:

2) How is Marx to be held responsible for the actions of others which took place after his death? Are you saying Marx posthumously incited Lenin to murder millions of people? Where is your proof? Where are the quotes from Marx which advocate ruthless dishonesty and deception?

Are you trying to take the mickey here? Lenin called himself a Marxist, and said that he was being guided by Marx’s principles. Is that so hard to understand?
Many people’s writings have inspired/incited other people’s actions long after the writer’s death. The writings of Mohammed are inspiring/inciting people today, more than a millennium after his death.
Did Marx “incite Lenin to murder”? Of course not, Marx was an intellectual like Ravetz, he might have worn a tie and a snappy blue sweater like Ravetz, he was a distinguished gentleman like Ravetz, he would never advocate such an ugly thing as mass murder.
However, by a strange twist of fate, virtually every country that followed Marxist principles became a police state that murdered its own citizens and consumed its own young.
Coincidence? Maybe on your planet, but not on mine …

tallbloke
February 13, 2010 3:12 pm

Willis Eschenbach (13:44:43) :
Lenin called himself a Marxist, and said that he was being guided by Marx’s principles. Is that so hard to understand?

Whereas Marx famously said:
“I am not a Marxist”.
That other famous Marx, Groucho, said:
“I wouldn’t join any club which would have me as a member”.
You asked for an example of a Marxist state which hadn’t killed millions of people in it’s own country. You don’t need to look far away from The USA.
Cuba.
Literacy level pre-revolution 2%. Public health provision: Zero.
Literacy level under Castro: 98% Public health provision: universal.
The people still want more freedom but also respect and love their leader. He used to walk around in downtown Havana freely and without escourt. You don’t see the Bushes or Obamas able to do that in Washington or New York.
What sort of freedom the people will get now Castro is gone, I don’t know.
Cuba is no paradise, but it looks better then Haiti did pre-earthquake.
I agree with you that most totalitarian regimes are bad news. I’m just not sure how we get from Marx’s ideas to totalitarian regimes. Maybe the problem was that his vision of a shared future left a vacuum into which power-mongers who paid no more than lip service to his legacy stepped unopposed. I don’t know. I’m not a political historian and it’s not my field of expertise.
Getting back to the topic, I’d be interested to hear your ideas on how we can separate science from the state and it’s policy agenda, and corporations and their value free profit agendas, so we can avoid a repeat of the climate fiasco in the future.
I do recommend you find the time to read Ravetz piece on uncertainty. It makes a lot of sense:
http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/essays/e06uncertain.pdf
You’ll find a definition of PNS in a few sentences there, and a perhaps enlightening reference to ‘scientific quality’.
The very best regards to you.

tallbloke
February 13, 2010 3:22 pm

liamascorcaigh (10:58:06) :
Sometimes, tallguy, it is very necessary to look a gift horse in the mouth!

Liam, noted. 🙂

Editor
February 13, 2010 3:43 pm

tallbloke:

You asked for an example of a Marxist state which hadn’t killed millions of people in it’s own country. You don’t need to look far away from The USA.
Cuba.

Oh, yeah, Cuba, that bastion of Marxist freedom and decency …

Cuba political prisoner tally drops in 2009
Jeff Franks
HAVANA
Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:30am EST
Related News
Cuba’s Raul Castro crushes dissent like Fidel: report
Wed, Nov 18 2009
HAVANA (Reuters) – Cuba ended 2009 with slightly fewer political prisoners but continues to have the worst human rights in the Western Hemisphere with no improvement in sight, a rights group said on Tuesday.
The Cuban Commission on Human Rights said there were 201 dissidents behind bars, down from 208 at mid-year, but it charged that the communist government had stepped up harassment of opponents with brief detentions and physical intimidation.
The independent commission said Cuba “continues to have the worst record on fundamental rights in the Western Hemisphere,” with nothing “to indicate the current leaders are inclined to initiate reforms.”
“Unless a miracle happens, the situation of civil rights, politics and economics in Cuba will continue being the same or worse throughout 2010,” the commission said in its year-end report.

So we’re supposed to believe that it’s just another coincidence that Cuba is both Marxist and has “the worst record on fundamental rights in the Western Hemisphere”? Cuba, where Yoani Sanchez gets beaten up in the street for the heinous crime of blogging? Cuba, which only avoided the example of the Soviet and Chinese (and Haitian) famines because for decades they got a subsidy of billions of dollars every year from the Soviets? Give me a subsidy of a billion a year and I can avoid looking like Haiti too …
Yeah, you got a hell of an example there, champ, Marxism at its finest. I guess it is true, none are as blind as those who will not see …
I’m off to read Ravetz’s essay, thanks for the reference.

Richard S Courtney
February 13, 2010 4:10 pm

tallbloke (07:59:48) :
You say to me:
“Now it may be that the politicians will attempt to exclude those groups whose conclusions are opposed to the policy thay want to push, but I don’t think you can blame Ravetz for that.”
I did not “blame Ravetz for that”. Indeed, I said at (07:04:13),
“Changing the nature of science cannot change the problem. And adjusting science to become ‘post normal science’ (PNS) can only make it worse because the views of ‘stakeholders’ will shout down the findings of the rare lone individuals. Indeed, as the Climategate emails demonstrate, this has happened in the PNS of climatology.”
The “stakeholders include politicians.
Please address the arguments I present instead of asserting I have said things I did not.
Richard

Zeke the Sneak
February 13, 2010 4:19 pm

“Cuba.”
Do you ever go on facebook? There you will meet no Cubans, which is a great loss for the rest of us. I have tried.
Less than 2% are online in their country; I suppose you could say they are highly educated, but educated in what? Certainly not in any ideas that the government finds objectionable. I have read your posts, tallbloke, and I know you would not try to justify the system of control and surveillance that is ferociously maintained by the state of Cuba. Also, the lines to the internet cafes are endless, and the Cuban internet is very slow.
Thank you for the thread and the remarkable rebuttals going back and forth.

Editor
February 13, 2010 4:43 pm

I have now read Ravetz’s speech. Very interesting, I appreciate you pointing me to it. However, I have a number of reservations about it:
1. The name “post normal science” is very misleading. Even he admits that. He says:

More serious, why do we call this “science”? Many friends have told us that the idea is great, but the use of “science”, rather than “policy”, is misleading. For “science” is the sort of thing that happens down in the lower, safer zones of the diagram, where people do things in labs or on computers. The sorts of debates that lie in that wild, outer zone are not “science”, are they? I should say that when we reflected on that very reasonable criticism, we were confirmed in our choice. A good title must shock at least a little if it is to be noticed, and we think that the shock in this one is part of its message.

So he admits that he is not talking about science, he is talking about politics and policy, but he calls it “post normal science” to shock people … I find that despicable. I am reminded of another “post normal” scientist, Stephen Schneider, who famously said:

To capture the public imagination, we have to offer up some scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements and little mention of any doubts one might have. Each of us has to decide the right balance between being effective, and being honest. This ‘double ethical bind’ we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both.

Post normal science at its finest, “quality” trumps truth. According to Schneider, it’s OK for a scientist to lie in order to “capture the public imagination” … which is exactly what Ravetz said in his quote above. Perhaps you consider that “science”, either normal- or post-. I consider it lying, and I find it despicable. I don’t want a scientist who is willing to “make little mention of any doubts”. I want a scientist who is honest about his doubts, does not exaggerate, and avoids making up “scary scenarios”. I don’t want someone who cares about “shock value” like Ravetz, that’s not science, that’s a carnie huckster’s trick.
2. Ravetz goes on to explain that there is a brand new problem occuring today when two scientists come to different conclusions from the same evidence. But he is re-hashing old, old ground. This has happened since there have been scientists. It’s so common in courts of law that it has its own name, “duelling experts”.
His oh-so-insightful and brand-new-novel solution is to allow people who are not experts to show that the science is not correct … but that has always been the case in science. While not anyone can design a dam (Ravetz’s example), anyone has always been free to find a flaw in the dam design. How is his “solution” novel or insightful in the least?
3. Ravetz says:

A “nonquantifiable risk” is a new sort of object for public policy and science. Yet, that is just the sort of challenge which will become increasingly salient in times to come.

Bullshit. Absolute codswallop. We have been dealing with “nonquantifiable risk” for centuries. And in fact, the advances of science have made the risks more and more quantifiable. We have a host of new methods and techniques for dealing with this.
Consider the science of PERT analysis. It is designed to deal with exactly that question. It was developed to put numbers on the nonquantifiable problems posed by the development of the first atomic submarine, where the problems were extremely poorly posed and the science was not well understood.
Or consider actuarial science. While the risk that I will get into a car crash is “nonquantifiable”, actuarial science allows us to quantify it. We have an entire insurance industry which is based on putting numbers on nonquantifiable risks. Want to insure a dancer’s legs? Go to Lloyds of London, and despite the risk being absolutely nonquantifiable, they will be happy to put a number on it.
Or consider the concept of “fuzzy sets” and “triangular numbers”. These scientific concepts were developed specifically to give us a handle on non-quantifiable uncertainties. Traditional set theory includes the idea of exclusively being or not being a member of a set. For example, an animal is either alive or dead. However, for a number of sets, no clear membership can be determined. For example, is a person “old” if they are 55?
While no yes/no answer can be given, we can use fuzzy sets to determine the ranges of these types of values. Instead of the 1 or 0 used to indicate membership in traditional sets, fuzzy sets use a number between 0 and 1 to indicate partial membership in the set.
Fuzzy sets can also be used to establish boundaries around uncertain values. In addition to upper and lower values, these boundaries can include best estimates as well. For example, the number of mammalian species is given by the IUCN as 4,629 species. However, this is known to be an estimate subject to error, which is usually quoted as ± 10%.
This range of estimates of the number of mammal species can be represented by a triangular fuzzy number written as [4166, 4629, 5092], to indicate the upper and lower bounds, as well as the best estimate. These triangular numbers can be used in calculations just like traditional numbers, and they were developed specifically to give us a handle on “nonquantifiable” phenomena.
In short, Ravetz simply hasn’t done his homework. Like a good Marxist, he is so enamoured of his theory that he hasn’t pulled his head out of his … … … intricate musings and looked around at what scientists are actually doing. He is clueless about the numerous tools that science has developed to deal with the problem of “nonquantifiable” uncertainty.
Sorry, tallbloke, but you’ll have to colour me unimpressed … I find his analysis puerile, ill-informed, and patronizing.
PS – you say:

You’ll find a definition of PNS in a few sentences there, and a perhaps enlightening reference to ’scientific quality’.

Yes, just as in his essay above, he talks about “quality”. And just like in his essay above, he totally fails to define what he means by “quality”. It is thrown out without the slightest context, as though it had some agreed-upon meaning. But Michael Mann’s “high-quality science” may well be my “low-quality nonsense”, so how does introducing such a vague measuring stick help us in the slightest?
I ask again, what is “quality”, and how is it to be measured in a scientific context? Nothing that I have read, either from you or Ravetz, makes even the slightest attempt to answer that question. And at this point, after 544 comments on the thread, that lack is becoming very, very disturbing. You won’t define it, Ravetz seems to have gone away to stick his head up his … … theories again, and nobody else has stepped up to the plate. We have a theory that claims to be about science, backed up by a central reliance on an undefined quantity called “quality” …
But hey, maybe that’s just post normal science at work. Ravetz espouses a new you-beaut interactive view of science, then he refuses to interact. As I said before, if you have any influence with him tell him to put up or shut up, because at present his reputation is nonquantifiably close to zero for me.

J.Peden
February 13, 2010 8:49 pm

tallbloke:
Cuba: “98% Public health provision: universal.”
The obvious question is, what is “healthcare”? Or what is ‘it’ that is universal? Your bald statement is really only a meaningless mantra. The fact that no one explains what Cuba’s healthcare is almost certainly means that it is very subpar.
This is a common propagandistic trick. So when you hear Progressives also howling about “life expectantcy” and “infant mortality” in relation to National Healthcare, they don’t tell you that other big factors have not been “zeroed” for, and that they easily explain differences. I’m also going to ask them some time if women always get better care than men in developed countries, because they do always live longer.
Fidel himself didn’t use Cuba’s system during his fairly recent travails, probably involving colonic diverticulitis and ruptured diverticulum [somewhat like a ruptured appendix] then repair of probably a failed or broken down “anastmosis” connecting the healthy colon segments back together, such that it came apart and he apparently got peritonitis. I think Castro refused an intervening colostomy which would have likely prevented the “anastomosis” failure, and might have ended up with one anyway after the failure.
But the point is that no one has to go out of the U.S. for any of this surgery. Essentially no one suggests this and no one wants to, unless some other non healthcare factor exists.
The Obama plan, even though he really doesn’t have one, would decide what healthcare is, when it is delivered, and who would get what, based on a created scarcity of care due to “cost”. His chief healthcare advisor, Rahm’s brother, Ezekial Emanuel[sp], is a strong believer in rationing via a “complete life” metric which is bad enough on its own but could also lead to a more pure [arbitrary] eugenics. He gets to determine people’s worth, of course excluding his own lack of or even negative worth.

tallbloke
February 14, 2010 1:22 am

J.Peden (20:49:28) :
tallbloke:
Cuba: “98% Public health provision: universal.”
The obvious question is, what is “healthcare”? Or what is ‘it’ that is universal? Your bald statement is really only a meaningless mantra.

Maybe it would make more sense if you quoted what I said.
I’ve heard that when big hurricanes are imminent, Cubans have allocated room shares on the other side of the Island, and public transport is provided to get them there. Is this true?
Does this happen on Haiti? Or in Florida?
I agree with you that the univeral health care provided might have limitations, since the Big Country next door has been blockading their ports for 50 years or so, and threatens trade sanctions against any country which supplies Cuba.
Perhaps the point is that they share out what little manages to get through the blockade.
Willis Eschenbach (15:43:30) :
The Cuban Commission on Human Rights said there were 201 dissidents behind bars, down from 208 at mid-year, but it charged that the communist government had stepped up harassment of opponents with brief detentions and physical intimidation.

I’m confused. The numbers should have dropped by far more than that with the closure of Guantanamo Bay. Maybe the number of political prisoners who were held there by the U.S. aren’t included included in the figures.
There is an Inter American commission on human rights. What are their figures? I doubt the U.S. backed right wing dictatorships come out looking too good. What percentage of Cubans of all prisoner types are in jail? And America?
http://endcorruption.homestead.com/prisonrates2005.jpg
The USA has the highest prisoner rate in the world by far.
This is way off topic and I’m not out to defend totalitarian regimes so I’ll leave it.

Editor
February 14, 2010 2:09 am

tallbloke, if you are “not out to defend totalitarian regimes”, then why are you doing so? Or are you saying that Cuba is not a totalitarian regime? I’m confused here …

tallbloke
February 14, 2010 2:14 am

Willis Eschenbach (16:43:14) :
I have now read Ravetz’s speech. Very interesting, I appreciate you pointing me to it. However, I have a number of reservations about it:
1. The name “post normal science” is very misleading.

Agreed, and it has led to a lot of misunderstanding on this thread. We did discuss earlier whether it is really ‘post, normal science’ as in, what happens with the outputs of normal science after it has been done. But this would miss the effects of selectively financed research agendas which determine which normal science gets done in the first place, so it’s a tricky one.
I think your comparison of Schneider to Ravetz is unreasonable. Schneider is supposed to be a scientist, Ravetz does not pretend to be one.
2. Ravetz goes on to explain that there is a brand new problem occuring today when two scientists come to different conclusions from the same evidence. But he is re-hashing old, old ground. This has happened since there have been scientists. It’s so common in courts of law that it has its own name, “duelling experts”.
I couldn’t find anywhere he claimed it to be new, but he does go on to say:
“And then
we speak of “hired guns” doing “junk science” for whatever vested interest provides
them with comfort, ideological or financial. And if that sort of debate were to become
the norm, we would be well along the way to the debasement of scientific quality.”
There’s the “quality” reference. Perhaps a measure could be devised based on his discussion of error bars, which you don’t mention, but is very relevant, particularly to climate science.
His oh-so-insightful and brand-new-novel solution is to allow people who are not experts to show that the science is not correct … but that has always been the case in science. While not anyone can design a dam (Ravetz’s example), anyone has always been free to find a flaw in the dam design. How is his “solution” novel or insightful in the least?
He discusses much more than the dam design, including it’s placement. What is new is that he calls for the ‘extended peer review body’ to include interested non-experts on a formally recognised footing. Liam thinks this is a trojan horse, I’m not so sure. It would depend on who decides who gets to sit at the table.
3. Ravetz says:
A “nonquantifiable risk” is a new sort of object for public policy and science. Yet, that is just the sort of challenge which will become increasingly salient in times to come.
Bullshit. Absolute codswallop. We have been dealing with “nonquantifiable risk” for centuries.

Thanks for your excellent and detailed summary of the methods of risk assessment. Ravetz has been involved in developing some of these as they apply to policy making over the last 40 years.
http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/books.html
http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/essays.html
I think that to offer a fair and balanced critique of Ravetz you need to commend him for his valid insights as well as castigate him for his failures, exaggerations and omissions. For example, in this 1997 paper we are discussing the section on computer models is spot on, and concludes with this:
“I need not dwell on what would happen to a scientific community if the GIGO
projects commanded all the resources, and the old-fashioned scientists were left to starve in garrets.”
So there you have it. He likes good old fashioned properly done science too.

tallbloke
February 14, 2010 2:18 am

Willis Eschenbach (02:09:45) :
tallbloke, if you are “not out to defend totalitarian regimes”, then why are you doing so? Or are you saying that Cuba is not a totalitarian regime? I’m confused here …

I’m defending balance in assessment, not the regime.

DirkH
February 14, 2010 2:46 am

“Willis Eschenbach (13:44:43) :
[…]
Did Marx “incite Lenin to murder”? Of course not, Marx was an intellectual like Ravetz, he might have worn a tie and a snappy blue sweater like Ravetz, he was a distinguished gentleman like Ravetz, he would never advocate such an ugly thing as mass murder. ”
Marx was an intellectual, but also a radical, involved in street barricades during the short lived 1848 revolution in Germany. He printed his own leaflets, akin to a blogger these days, with monetary help from Engels whose father was an industrialist. Marx also did write the communist manifesto later, calling for a violent revolution.
He was not exactly the ivory-tower type…

tallbloke
February 14, 2010 4:05 am

Zeke the Sneak (16:19:22) :
“Cuba.”
Do you ever go on facebook? There you will meet no Cubans, which is a great loss for the rest of us. I have tried.
Less than 2% are online in their country; I suppose you could say they are highly educated, but educated in what? Certainly not in any ideas that the government finds objectionable. I have read your posts, tallbloke, and I know you would not try to justify the system of control and surveillance that is ferociously maintained by the state of Cuba. Also, the lines to the internet cafes are endless, and the Cuban internet is very slow.

Hi Zeke, thank you for your observations. I don’t know anything about the Cuban internet. Somehow I doubt they have a link onto the transatlantic backbone. Is it all run off an ageing Russian satellite?
What percentage of native Haitians had internet access before the ‘quake?

Editor
February 14, 2010 4:19 am

tallbloke, thanks for your insights regarding my critique of Ravetz’s work. My comments follow:

1. The name “post normal science” is very misleading.

Agreed, and it has led to a lot of misunderstanding on this thread. We did discuss earlier whether it is really ‘post, normal science’ as in, what happens with the outputs of normal science after it has been done. But this would miss the effects of selectively financed research agendas which determine which normal science gets done in the first place, so it’s a tricky one.

My objection is not that it has caused misunderstanding. It is that, as he says, he picked it for “shock value” rather than accuracy. Call me crazy, but I prefer accuracy over shock value.

I think your comparison of Schneider to Ravetz is unreasonable. Schneider is supposed to be a scientist, Ravetz does not pretend to be one.

Both of them hold that “quality” is more important than facts. Both of them hold that “shock value” is more important than accuracy. Schneider seems to me to be a perfect example of the problems with Ravetz’s focus on “quality” rather than accuracy.

2. Ravetz goes on to explain that there is a brand new problem occuring today when two scientists come to different conclusions from the same evidence. But he is re-hashing old, old ground. This has happened since there have been scientists. It’s so common in courts of law that it has its own name, “duelling experts”.

I couldn’t find anywhere he claimed it to be new, but he does go on to say:
“And then we speak of “hired guns” doing “junk science” for whatever vested interest provides them with comfort, ideological or financial. And if that sort of debate were to become the norm, we would be well along the way to the debasement of scientific quality.”
There’s the “quality” reference. Perhaps a measure could be devised based on his discussion of error bars, which you don’t mention, but is very relevant, particularly to climate science.

As I said, he refers to “scientific quality” or plain old “quality” a lot. But he never defines what it is. It is this vagueness that is scary. As I said before, Michael Mann’s high-quality hockeystick is my low-quality hoax … so how does appealing to an unknown quantity help us?

His oh-so-insightful and brand-new-novel solution is to allow people who are not experts to show that the science is not correct … but that has always been the case in science. While not anyone can design a dam (Ravetz’s example), anyone has always been free to find a flaw in the dam design. How is his “solution” novel or insightful in the least?

He discusses much more than the dam design, including it’s placement. What is new is that he calls for the ‘extended peer review body’ to include interested non-experts on a formally recognised footing. Liam thinks this is a trojan horse, I’m not so sure. It would depend on who decides who gets to sit at the table.

If the table of folks is there to assess the “quality” of the dam, I’m with Liam. I agree with the idea of extended review, but “peer review” is a dead end. All it is supposed to do is to make sure that there are no obvious errors. What we need, and what the internet has provided, is the opportunity for anyone to publicise errors that are found in scientific work. Perhaps that is what Ravetz means, but as I said, he is so vague that it is hard to tell.

3. Ravetz says:

A “nonquantifiable risk” is a new sort of object for public policy and science. Yet, that is just the sort of challenge which will become increasingly salient in times to come.

Bullshit. Absolute codswallop. We have been dealing with “nonquantifiable risk” for centuries.

Thanks for your excellent and detailed summary of the methods of risk assessment. Ravetz has been involved in developing some of these as they apply to policy making over the last 40 years.
http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/books.html
http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/essays.html
I think that to offer a fair and balanced critique of Ravetz you need to commend him for his valid insights as well as castigate him for his failures, exaggerations and omissions. For example, in this 1997 paper we are discussing the section on computer models is spot on, and concludes with this:
“I need not dwell on what would happen to a scientific community if the GIGO
projects commanded all the resources, and the old-fashioned scientists were left to starve in garrets.”
So there you have it. He likes good old fashioned properly done science too.

Say what? He says that a “nonquantifiable risk” is a “new sort of object”. I point out that it is not new at all, that there are a wide variety of accepted scientific methods for dealing with it. Some of those methods are more than a century old, others fifty years, others decades. It is not “new” at all. And for him to claim some kind of primacy in dealing with it simply means that he has not done his homework.
Thank you once again for the references. In them I find this:

In preparing for this new work, we must start with an appreciation that uncertainty is not well managed at present. In particular, number, the traditional language of science, is actually quite ill adapted for managing the sorts of uncertainty that we now confront.

Again, this is not true. There are a variety of numerical methods for dealing with uncertainty, a few of which I detailed above. Science is better adapted for dealing with uncertainty than it has ever been.
Any reasonable analysis of how science deals with numeric uncertainty should start with a discussion of the current methods for doing exactly that. But Ravetz does nothing of the sort. If the reader is not knowledgeable, they would come away with the idea that Ravetz’s ideas are new, that they are filling a big hole in the scientific knowledge.
But there is no such hole. Science contains a host of methods for dealing with numeric uncertainty. He spends a long time discussing the “Fossils Joke”, as though it were something new. Here’s the joke. A museum docent is asked how old the fossils are. “63,999,997 years”, he says. “How do you know that?”, someone asks. “When I came here, they told me they were 64,000,000 years old. But then I heard the age was slightly overestimated, so I knocked off three years.”
He then spends a few pages squeezing every bit of information out of this example. He claims that this reveals something about science and numbers. But everything that he discusses is handled quite neatly by the idea of “significant digits”, which he never mentions at all …
Like I said, he hasn’t done his homework. The problems of numeric uncertainty that he claims to be finding novel solutions for were solved, some of them centuries ago, and he hasn’t a clue about that fact.
Which, of course, makes his claims very doubtful. When someone wants to lecture me about uncertainty and numbers, but they don’t mention significant digits, I’m sorry, but I don’t pay any attention. They are talking about something that they don’t understand.
I find nothing in his work that was not anticipated, nothing that is not already known, and in some cases known for centuries. You say that I should acknowledge the novel contributions that he has made to the handling of uncertainty in science.
Unfortunately, in all of the material I have read, I find nothing new. Instead, I find him claiming credit for things that were discovered and dealt with many years ago. Novel ideas for dealing with uncertainty? I haven’t found one yet. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one, but all of the “novel” ideas I’ve found so far are so basic that they are part of every knowledgeable scientists numerical repertoire.
Finally, bozo errors. He says:

137.03602855 ±1 (the reciprocal of .007297351 ±6)

The reciprocal of 137.03602855 ± 1 is far from what he claims. It is
.007297351 ± .000053
His uncertainty is out by no less than five orders of magnitude … a minor point to be sure, but if you are going to lecture me about your “novel” whiz-bang method for measuring uncertainty, it doesn’t inspire confidence when you quote an uncertainty figure that is wrong by that astronomical amount …