I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony
Guest post by Jerome Ravetz
At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information. Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions. We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.
Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real. Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State. This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions. In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open. If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices. I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.
There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification. In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable. It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.). When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute. It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science. The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.
We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case. This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time. Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming. There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation. Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2 had always previously been at or below that starting level). Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.
In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one. It seems that several causes conspired. First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position. Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal. And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged. It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message. As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’. Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.
Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us. But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working. Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective. The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics. The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab. If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends. The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs. Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.
In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended. Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3. The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified. Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six. And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems. As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards! In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.
Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough. So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world. Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science. And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision. Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.
As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused. In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science. But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore. We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’. This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure. Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet. Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort. All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed. As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate. Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.
Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere. Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound. By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course. The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold. For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’. Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust. Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’. And then came the e-mails.
We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming. Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits: facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent. In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt. The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling. What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.
Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse. The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way. Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance. And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound? The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped. I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair. But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).
Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed. Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited. Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost. To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical. For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community. In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm. In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance. We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved. Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation. Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise. And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation. This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems. The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.
The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls. It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures. Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment. This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now. A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty. But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.
To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere. The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme. Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.
The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested. To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey. There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes. The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened. The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace. The Climategate affair shows the importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.
The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’. And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means. With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing. But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries. The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources. With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly. As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages. Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions. In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses. The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty. The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.
Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted. It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse. The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known. But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science. The blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains. Some parts are quite mainstream, others not. The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other. Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time. Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com). Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature. Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.
Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere. Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously. And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised. Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses. But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different. I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.
There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts. The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’. The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role. For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant. Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate? The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression. From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.
The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance. For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode. Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse? There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture. How can it be refuted?
And what about the issue itself? Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming? If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science. The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection. What sort of chaos would then result? The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.
To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand. In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication. Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised. A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science. Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance. The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas. The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process. Let dialogue commence!
——————-
My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay. The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.
Zeke the Sneak (10:37:59) :
“The crucial issue here, then, is so-called “sustainability.”
I suspect from reading this thread that those who despise AGW theory for what it is, scientific fraud, may still join forces with those that believe human life on earth must be made “sustainable.”** That would require more central control and planning of natural resources, shipping, production, storage, communication, innovation, and population numbers.
The rest of us reject “sustainability” for what it is: Marxism.
**”The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability…” paragraph 15”
Indeed! The cleverness of the word ‘sustainable’! has that warm, comforting feeling. We want everything to be ‘sustainable’. You know: I started to smell a rat when that word started cropping up in all sorts of brochures and company reports as a buzzword. If you add the word ‘sustainable’ to everything then it has the Midas touch. Now when I see the word it immediately triggers my BS detector.
Yes, well, Ravetz introduced the concept of ‘sustainability’ in order to envigorate his PNS in his paper ‘Post-Normal Science and the complexity of transitions towards sustainability’:
“The theory of Post-Normal Science…needs to be renewed and enriched…so the best move forward is to raise the issue of Sustainability…That provides the foundation for a use of ‘contradiction’ as a problem incapable of resolution in its own terms, and also of ‘characteristic contradiction’ that drives a system to a crisis. With those materials it is possible to state the characteristic contradiction of our modern industrial civilisation, and provide a diagram with heuristic power.”
This is Marxism pure and simple. ‘Contradiction’ and ‘characteristic contradiction’ are Marxist speak. So is ‘Sustainability’. That’s why Ravetz is so keen to inject more Marxism into his beloved PNS.
John Bellamy Foster, Marxist author of ‘Ecology against Capitalism’ and ‘Marx’s Ecology: Materialism and Nature’, wrote a paper ‘The Crisis of the Earth: Marx’s Theory of Ecological Sustainability as a Nature-Imposed Necessity for Human Production’ (Organization & Environment, Vol. 10, No. 3, 278-295 (1997)) :
“Any systematic, forward-looking ecological vision must include three elements: (a) a theory of ecological CRISIS and its relation to HUMAN PRODUCTION; (b) a concept of SUSTAINABILITY as a nature-imposed necessity for production; (c) a VISION of the transcendence of ecological crisis that ESTABLISHES SUSTAINABILITY AS A CORE PART of any future society. All three elements are to be found in the work of Karl Marx. Marx’s analysis…led him to a CONCEPT OF SUSTAINABILITY THAT WAS CENTRAL TO HIS VISION OF COMMUNIST SOCIETY. Because this concept of sustainability was rooted both in a critique of capitalism and a vision of a future society, it has a richness and complexity all its own. A close examination of Marx’s concept of sustainability therefore offers important insights into the possibilities for the creation of a more sustainable [i.e. Marxist – SFT] social order.” (emphasis mine).
See where the AGW scare comes from… and the ‘sustainable’ (Marxist) solution. As Mike Hulme says
“Within a capitalist world order, climate change is actually a convenient phenomenon to come along.”
“The function of climate change I suggest, is not as a lower-case environmental phenomenon to be solved…It really is not about stopping climate chaos. Instead, we need to see how we can use the idea of climate change – the matrix of ecological functions, power relationships, cultural discourses and materials flows that climate change reveals – to rethink how we take forward our political, social, economic and personal projects over the decades to come.”
Steer well clear of Ravetz (and Hulme, his acolyte) and his PNS, I say.
But, if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists, ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be.
– Karl Marx –
tallbloke (16:39:34) :
Which is a quote from Karl Marx taken out of the context in which it permits ruthless dishonesty and deception when used to implement the Marxist ideology. An expression of this Marxist ideology appeared in the form of Lenin’s description of the “useful idiots” who were ruthlessly exterminated in mass genocides regardless of their past Marxist allegiances.
To my mind this thread is increasingly becoming ridiculous. Even after receiving Ravetz’ unreserved apology for history’s past wrongs, what will you do? Ask him to scientifically prove he really means it? I might as well ask you to prove this ad hominem attack isn’t motivated by plain old anti-Semitism, given Ravetz’ obvious Jewish ancestry.
In May last year Mike Hulme said the following (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/06/mike_hulme_interview/page3.html):
“If, say, Jim Hansen or Fred Singer and I sat down and looked at the same scientific evidence, we would come up with a very different set of proscriptions. Now, why is that? Is it because our scientific training is deficient, and he’s seeing more than I’m seeing, or I’m seeing more than he’s seeing? I don’t think it is. I think actually there’s a lot of stuff that’s going on here. And that’s actually what we have to get down to – to root out, and expose, accept, and work within these broader, deeper sources of disagreement.”
“To hide behind the dubious precision of scientific numbers, and not actually expose one’s own ideologies or beliefs or values and judgments is undermining both politics and science.”
I see a lot of common ground in Hulme’s and Ravetz’ sentiments and those of cognitive (neuro)psychologists and cognitive anthropologists such as Scott Atran or Jonathan Haidt. In fact, I would go much further than Hulme in the quote above, for the very exercise of science is subject to cognitive constraints. Experimental research has yielded some very surprising – and humbling – results with regard to the limits of human rationality.
No surprise, then, that Hulme’s book bears an epigraph attributed to Haidt: “A good place to look for wisdom is where you least expect to find it: in the minds of your opponents.”
Wise words indeed.
To finish, I’ll just pick one short comment:
“Richard S Courtney (17:53:30) :
Willis:
Thankyou for your superb series of postngs above.
Your clear, rational and cogent remarks are accompanied with an addition of wit that makes them a pleasure to read. They stand in stark contrast to the obscure, illogical and inconsistent contents of the above article from Prof Ravetz that is written in a style that makes it an effort to read.
Your total demolition of the article is clear for all to see.
Again, thankyou. And please continue to publish your thoughts on WUWT. They have the quality of purest gold (i.e. they cannot tarnish, are hard to destroy, and are pleasing to see).
Richard
PS It is not hard to provide a definition of “quality” in any context if one has no intention of varying its meaning when using it in that context.”
So, when I order coffee, I usually ask for it to be accompanied with an addition of a slice of cake. Yes, accompanied with an addition.
Your total demolition of the article is clear for all to see. Yes, I’m afraid the debate is over! Now, where have I heard that before?
It is not hard to provide a definition of “quality” in any context if one has no intention of varying its meaning when using it in that context. ‘That’ is an anaphoric pronoun, so ‘that context’ must refer to ‘any context’. The problem really lies with ‘any context’, which can mean ‘one (particular), some, all, or whatever’ (funnily enough it is context dependent). So this sentence could very well be interpreted in various ways. The more I read it, the more confused I became as to what was actually being said. Talk about “obscure, illogical and inconsistent contents […] written in a style that makes it an effort to read”.
Thoughts of the useful idiots, futerra.co.uk, New Rules, New Game…
“
Everybody talks
about the weather,
but nobody does
anything about it.”
Mark Twain
The challenge of changing our behaviour to stop damaging the climate can seem daunting. Behaviour change is difficult; people are complicated and don’t always react as you’d expect.
Don’t panic.
These short rules are communications techniques which pull together the most effective strategies for changing people’s behaviour. They are based on a huge body of international psychological, sociological and marketing studies, gathered and analysed by Futerra. We’ve taken great concepts with terrible titles like ‘psychological reactance’ and ‘symbolic self-completion’ and translated them into simple-to-use communications tools to motivate behaviour change.
We didn’t find a magic bullet or secret formula: just simple, practical tips to encourage behaviour change. These tips are the first step in taking the massive body of evidence and using it in day-to-day communications.
The New Rules: New Game isn’t a simple, ‘one size fits all’ blueprint, and some of the tips might even, at first sight, seem inconsistent. But taken together, they provide a practical guide for action.
So… try a new communications tactic, apply these Rules – and create some much-needed change.
rules and games
Five of the principles we found are so important that we kept them separate from the main list. These five concepts frame everything that comes after them. They might be easy to agree with, and a lot harder to remember when you’re planning specific communications work. But please try – they’re the most important insights we’ve found.
• Go beyond the usual suspects
We all like talking to people with the same interests, outlooks and even clothes as us: the usual suspects open to climate-friendly behaviours and the ‘seekers’, ‘pioneers’ and ‘ethical consumers’ who are already changing. But there’s been less success changing the behaviours of the people
who think, feel and even dress differently from those usual suspects.
Go find ‘em.
• Know the difference between sleepwalking and retail therapy
Conscious and unconscious behaviours are different; active and passive, choice and habit behaviours. The difference is between the behaviour of buying a car (conscious, choice, active) and that of driving a car (unconscious, habit, passive). When people are on automatic pilot – which most of us are, most of the time – ’conscious, choice, active’ messages won’t reach them.
• Refreeze good behaviours
Once you’ve woken or ‘unfrozen’ people from their sleepwalking behaviour, you can convince them to change. But once they’ve adopted the new behaviours, you need to find a way of ‘refreezing’ them, so the positive behaviour becomes an unconscious habit again.
• Forget bridging the ‘value-action’ gap
Let’s be blunt: we must stop searching for the sparkly magic bridge that simply leads from values to action, or from attitudes to behaviour. People’s
remember…
behaviours, attitudes, values and awareness are all different and linked in complicated ways – if they’re linked at all.
• Change groups
People don’t learn or change alone. Society isn’t made up of atomised individuals choosing how to act in complete isolation from those around them. The only way to change behaviour is to change what is socially acceptable: the so-called ‘social proof’.
The first lesson of communications is ‘know your audience’. You can’t talk to all of the people all of the time, so you need to research the interests, habits, social links and preferred communications channels of the people you want to reach. But there are two things to keep in mind whoever you’re talking to:
1. Keep it personal
Societal change is essential, but people’s individual circumstances still matter. Once you’ve made behaviours ‘socially acceptable’, you’ll need to make those behaviours relevant to individuals. Make your messages as personalised as possible. Create climate messages about ”my region, my town, my street, my house, me”.
2. Help people to help
People really want to be good, important and useful. Strange but true. Much climate change communications makes people feel bad, irrelevant and useless. Help people to understand (and trust) that they are making a difference.
who are you talking to?
Climate change isn’t yet in most people’s ‘locus of control’; it feels like a big nasty threat they have no influence over. Until people feel on the inside that changing their behaviour will make a difference, no amount of information, price cuts or haranguing will bring about the change needed.
the right
message
The messages we use to influence behaviour are key. We’re not going to say again that simple information messages are a poor motivator: you already know that. Instead, here’s some clear guidance on what we should be saying and showing.
3. Make clear direct requests
This is the principle of ‘please do not walk on the grass’. It’s important to be very clear and specific about the behaviours that help us tackle climate change. Take care to integrate other messages and behaviour change tactics, but don’t forget to ask for what you want.
4. We’re more worried about loss than gain
Losing £5 feels more important then gaining £5. It’s a small but powerful insight. Of course you can communicate the benefits of new actions, but lead in with the real losses people are suffering as a result of their current unsustainable behaviour.
5. Empathy and Imagination are power tools
Empathy is a powerful motivator for change, but most people don’t empathise with landscapes. If places are threatened by climate change, then show the people and animals who are in danger.
People are also more concerned about the threats that can easily be imagined or visualised (e.g. plane crashes) and discount those that are too general or distant (e.g. a rise in sea levels). Help people see the threat and see the solutions – and that means using pictures as well as words.
6. Strike a careful balance with your language
The language we use to describe the challenge of climate change is huge, hyperbolic and almost pornographic; the language of the solutions is often all about ‘small, cheap and easy’. We need to make solutions sound more heroic, use grander terms, and make the scale of the solution sound equal to the scale of the problem.
Remember to make good sound normal and bad sound rare. Being good is important but being normal is even more so. Every time we say that ‘most people’ aren’t climate friendly, we’ve tipped the balance towards the wrong behaviours.
7. Feedback is crucial
If you don’t give feedback, thank people and acknowledge the progress made, then how can people be sure they’re doing the right things? Feedback reduces anxiety, helps to reinforce behaviour and increases the belief that action makes a difference.
8. Not all messengers are equal
Egg-head scientists are important messengers: they have authority, and reassure people that someone understands the complicated issue of climate change. But we need common-sense and likeable intermediaries as well, to translate the opaque pronouncements of scientists into practical and obvious advice.
picking the right messenger
There is a massive range of communications channels that can be used for climate change, from advertising to education, TV to literature, newspapers to door-stepping. Here are four key insights relevant to any channel and any audience:
9. Seeing is believing
Climate change is language-heavy, but light on visuals. Whenever you’re tempted to say something, think whether you could show it instead. A picture speaks a thousand words – especially for solutions.
10. Remind, remind, remind
Marketers use ‘retrieval cues’ to remind shoppers in supermarkets about the adverts they saw on TV the night before. If you’re trying
to change habits, it’s no good convincing someone just once. You need to remind them exactly when they’re taking the action you want to change.
11. Pledges have parameters
There are some tricks to pledges. First, people need to promise to someone, not just to a website or to themselves. And second, people need to believe that the pledge means something to the person they’re promising to. Commitment works, but only when personal and meaningful; otherwise, ‘pledge’ might not really mean ‘promise’.
12. Try before you buy
Letting people trial, pilot and test behaviours in a safe setting is crucial if you’re asking them to do something new.
how to reach people
beware
The evidence highlights some nasty side effects and barriers to changing people’s behaviour. Be aware and avoid them, or challenge them if you can.
13. The bystander effect
If you know that lots of other people are aware of a problem, you’re less likely to act yourself to solve it. Climate change suffers from the biggest and baddest bystander effect of them all – everyone else knows about it, so someone else will do something… right?
14. Free riders spoil everything
Fairness is important and people hate it when others benefit from breaking the rules. Reassure people that there’s a level playing field.
15. Tomorrow is less important
We eat our cake today, and promise ourselves we’ll diet tomorrow. The future is less important than the present, so all bad or inconvenient problems can be sent there. The positive side is that people are far more likely to commit to change if it doesn’t affect them until tomorrow.
16. Beware ‘totem’ behaviours
People often pick a small, insignificant behaviour to undertake or change to show others that they care, with no intention of changing anything else. (See Rule 19 below for ways to use this to your advantage.)
17. Money generates weak changes
Decisions based on money are shallow and fragile, and can be very vulnerable to changing circumstances.
18. The ‘sod off’ factor
Politely called ‘psychological reactance’, this means that many people’s automatic reaction to ‘you must do this’ is a simple ‘No!’
tactics for change
In addition to the specific principles above, there is a host of proven tactics for behaviour change. Not all of these work at the same time, but they do work.
19. Salesman tricks
A. Foot in the door:
Get someone to do something small and then introduce another larger action once the small one is completed. The move upwards won’t just happen on its own: communications are needed to link each rung of
the ladder.
B. Haggling:
Ask for a big or difficult behaviour, then let people agree to something smaller ‘for now’… but bigger than they would have accepted if offered
it first!
C. Reciprocity:
Give something (even if it’s small) and people feel beholden to do as you ask.
20. Make experiences big, and regular
Big sharp experiences affect behaviour more than a drip-feed of little ones. But those experiences don’t have a long shelf life, because recent experiences matter far more than distant ones. Climate change communications need an ongoing series of peaks.
21. Catalyst actions
Small behaviours don’t automatically lead to bigger ones, but big and socially visible ones can lead to smaller ones. Fitting an energy saving light bulb won’t convince people to buy a wind turbine, but a wind turbine on their roof may encourage them to buy the bulb.
22. Label people
If someone undertakes a climate-friendly behaviour (whether they intended to or not), you should say “thanks, you’re clearly someone who cares about the climate”. Next time you want something, say “if you care about the climate you should…”. They’ll be more likely to pay attention, because they’ve started wearing a mental badge that says ‘I care about the climate’.
23. Keep things compatible
Try and show how a new behaviour already fits nicely with everything else someone does. If a new behaviour isn’t shown as compatible with what they’re already doing and thinking, then it’s easier for them to ignore you than to change everything else in their life. We do like to be consistent.
24. Catch me when I’m open to change
There are times of big changes in our lives: getting married, moving house, starting a new job, having a baby or retiring. People are far more open to change in these ‘transition zones’, because their habits are all in flux. Less significant times of personal change work as well. Try communicating on payday, in spring and autumn, during our summer holidays. Change people when they’re already changing.
25. Make it a pleasure
People are constantly trying to minimise time spent on ‘personal admin’ or chores, and increase the time available for leisure, pleasure, and fulfilment. If positive behaviour is in the ‘chore’ bracket, there’s a lot less time/attention available then if it can be seen as leisure, pleasure or fulfilment behaviour.
Mike (18:23:05), you say:
I don’t want an apology from Ravetz, where did you ever get that idea? I want him to demonstrate that he has actually learned something and changed his beliefs as a result of being duped by the AGW crowd. He admits he was duped, but nothing has changed, he’s still spouting the unchanged post normal party line … sorry, that means nothing. That’s not what a scientist does … unless that’s another part of “post normal science” that I don’t know about. Responding to an accusation of inconsistency, John Maynard Keynes is reported to have said, “When the facts change, I change my mind – what do you do, sir?” Seems like Ravetz’s answer is … “I do nothing.”
Next, where is the “ad-hominem” attack? Nobody has attacked Ravetz himself, just his dangerous ideas. And anti-semitism? I missed that as well. Is Ravetz Jewish? Not obvious to me. Never crossed my mind. I think you may have your anti-Sem-meter set to too high a sensitivity …
Proscriptions? I had to go to the dictionary to find out what that means:
and
So … what on earth does that quote mean? Other than that Mike Hulme thinks that scientists should punish (proscribe) people who disagree with them?
When various scientists look at some scientific evidence, they often come to different scientific conclusions. ‘Twas ever thus. However, that’s the beauty of the scientific method. If they are in fact scientific conclusions, they are falsifiable. If they are contradictory, science offers us a clear method to distinguish between them. And if they’re not scientific conclusions, if they are based on prejudice or blinkered thinking, why should we care if they are different?
So what if there’s “a lot of stuff that’s going on here”. When was that not the case in science? There’s always a lot of stuff going on here, it’s called reality, and it is complex. But we don’t need post normal science to fix that, plain old normal science has dealt with the complexities of the natural world for centuries.
For me, “post normal science” seems to be a code term for “I can’t make my case scientifically, so I’ll include investigative journalism and what my grandma told me and an accusation of anti-Semitism to make my case”.
Maybe I’m wrong about that, but nobody has come forward to explain what it really means … what is “quality”? I asked these questions above:
Unfortunately, Mike, it seems that you would rather throw around unsubstantiated accusations of anti-Semitism than answer real, meaningful questions. And no one else, including Professor Ravetz and tallbloke, has tried to answer them either.
But “avoid the real issues” seems to be a major tenet of post normal science, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Tom (18:45:09)
They seriously want to lecture us on how to use “salesman’s tricks” like the “foot in the door” to avoid “damaging the climate”?
That’s post normal science at its finest. Assume what is in question (that the climate can be “damaged”), appoint yourself as the messenger of God to straighten out us poor fools that might not agree with you, don’t consider that we might actually have the unmitigated gall to require that you have evidence for your fantasies of “damage”, then propose a list of tricks and marketer’s “retrieval cues” and the like to cozen people into doing what you want them to do.
The arrogance of that line of post normal thought turns my stomach, but I suppose YMMV …
Willis,
You really must learn to read properly. Nowhere did I suggest you wanted anything. There is a general sense that Ravetz should own up to being a Marxist and also implicit in what is being written by some is that he (a Marxist, after all) should tell us where he stands with regards to this or that attrocity (e.g., Rienk (14:43:44)).
I mean, really. The guy writes an opinion piece on the global warming debate and all this history gets dragged into it. As for my anti-Sem-meter, I wrote ‘I might as well’, obviously meaning that it would be just as ridiculous to ask this as it is to ask Ravetz to state his position on matters irrelevant to his piece.
For a bunch of people so besot by (normal) science, you sure let a lot of morals creep into the debate. And do you have any empirical evidence that his ideas are dangerous, as you claim. You are a scientist after all. Or would this simply be an opinion?
When I hear people talk about ‘dangerous’ climate change I can’t help but smile. Thus it is for Ravetz’ alleged ‘dangerous’ ideas. I think the world – and science for that matter – shall survive both.
Regards
Mike
PS Ravetz is obviously a Jewish name, though I could be wrong for I know nothing about the man.
Mike (21:19:41)
Well, here’s what you said:
My apologies for my misunderstanding. However, what you wrote certainly implies that you think someone wants Ravetz to “apolog[ize] for history’s past wrongs”, otherwise why bring it up? I was pointing out that it wasn’t me.
However, I was one who said I am disturbed by the fact that he is a Marxist. Anyone who still believes in Marxism after it led, time after time, in country after country, decade after decade, to the wholesale murder of millions of people around the planet, gets no respect from me. I will look very long and hard at their ideas.
I don’t want him to apologise for it as you say. It is merely a measure of his credulity and his lack of critical thinking. It means he hasn’t paid any attention to the reality of Marxism, he’s off into the marvellous theory of Marxism. And it is a very beautiful theory … as long as you are willing to ignore the reality of a hundred million murders.
And when someone ignores reality to that extent, I have to question their thoughts on science.
His Marxism is by no means “irrelevant to his piece”. It permeates his piece, with all of the usual high-flown language to cover low-flown wrongs. He has proposed a post normal science which (near as I can tell since nobody wants to actually define his vague terms) is very similar to Soviet science. Replace falsifiability with Marxism plus “quality”, and yes, you’ll get history dragged in. Because that’s exactly what the Russians did, forgot about falsifiability and replaced it with “quality” as defined in Marxist terms. You want to ignore history, it seems. Me, I’d rather not repeat it.
Any idea like Ravetz’s that says that the tried and true methods of science need to be replaced by some mushy idea of “quality”, a measure that you and everyone else is unwilling to define, is a dangerous idea. You want evidence? Start with Lysenko and work down from there …
I, like you, think the world will survive both. However, many Soviet scientists didn’t survive the deadly combination of Marxism plus science based on “quality” rather than falsifiability, and their bones rest uneasily in the Siberian tundra as a testament to the danger.
Now with Ravetz we have the same charming combination, Marxism plus “quality” in place of normal science. You are welcome to smile about that if you wish.
I don’t, I know far too much history to ever smile about that.
I guess I must be clueless about Jewish names, it sounds German to me. I find it interesting, however, that you assume he is Jewish, and I never even thought about his ethnicity …
My regards to you as well, Mike,
w.
Here’s a line that lends itself to inference;
“But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).”
“…even I…”!
A more convincing mea culpa might read;’But, even so, I was carried along..’
As for sustainability, I believe it could be equally successfully quantified with the GCM’s that have completed their assignments.
Input would be, for example, known and probable mineral deposits, one by one, probable longevity of the human race, probable population density.
The geographic cells of the models could be reassigned as decades or centuries into the future.
Output would be just how much each individual is entitled to consume so as to not run out until the morning of human extinction day.
Oliver Ramsay, thank you for reminding me of a point that I wanted to discuss.
Ravetz:
Who could have imagined that the science was a joke? Well, anyone who was not mesmerised by the post normal aspects of the case.
In 1988, when James “Civil Disobedience R Us” Hansen gave his testimony to Congress, I was immediately suspicious. It seemed to me that the numbers were out by an order of magnitude or so.
A few years after that I did a rough calculation. The total average downwelling radiation striking the earth is about 500 W/m2 (about 170 W/m2 solar and 330 W/m2 “greenhouse” radiation). This means that a doubling of CO2 would make less than a 1% difference in total radiation. I could not see how (as Big Jim claimed at the time), this would lead to things like Manhattan being flooded in 20 years. It simply didn’t make sense. If the world were that sensitive to a tiny alteration, if it could be greatly disturbed by a change of less than 1%, it would have gone off the rails long ago.
But you see, I was looking at the numbers (you know, those useless “facts”), and Prof Ravetz was looking for “quality”. He was impressed by the “quality” of the scientists, and the “quality” of the journals. Me, I’m a suspicious son-of-a-bitch, I don’t trust anyone. And I especially don’t trust anyone of high quality. Call it a left-over from my upbringing as a cowboy. “Quality” folks were city folks, and we knew that nothing that they said could be trusted. I trust the numbers, and even then, I only trust the numbers that I have personally verified. My dad used to say “The big print giveth, and the small print taketh away”. It left me with a great distrust of the printed word.
So while Ravetz is mystified and asks “who could have known”, lots of us knew. He didn’t know, because he was a devotee of post normal science. I love to solve puzzles. He thinks that “the puzzle-solving approach of ‘normal science’ is obsolete”. I love to uncover new facts. He thinks that “the goal of achievement of truth or at least of factual knowledge … may be a luxury, indeed an irrelevance”.
Now, if you think that facts are “an irrelevance”, I fear you are lost. And Ravetz was totally lost. In his world, rather than facts, “the guiding principle is a more robust one, that of quality.” And he followed that “robust” guide of quality right over the cliff.
I give him props for admitting that he was “duped”. But he has not taken the logical next step that any scientist would take. He has not looked to see which of his assumptions were wrong, which plausible assumptions were the ones that led him to be duped.
I say he was duped precisely because he believes that quality is a more robust guiding principle than facts. I look at each brick in the tower to see if it is solid. He was suckered by what he calls “bootstrapped plausibility”, despite the fact that the underlying claim (that a tiny change would destabilise the climate) was not plausible at all.
Intrigued by his comment about “bootstrapped plausibility”:, I took a look at the Oxford/Arizona study he mentioned. In it he said:
Yet despite being aware that plausibility was a trap, he says he fell into the plausibility trap … which means that he didn’t understand the plausibility trap at all. And as he says, he “cannot be exculpated”.
But there’s an easy way out of the plausibility trap. This is not to trust anything. My grandma, who was a very wise woman, used to say “You can believe half of what you see, a quarter of what you hear … and an eighth of what you say.”
It is precisely this skepticism, not just of climate claims but of every claim including our own claims, that is the hallmark of a true scientist. A true scientist doesn’t give a shit about “quality”. A true scientist takes apart every clock to see how it works, even when the high-quality PhD clockmaker is standing there telling him there’s no need to look because he can tell the scientist exactly how it works. A true scientist has to verify it for himself.
So we return to Ravetz’s question, “And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound?” Well, anyone who looked. Anyone who was not blinded by Marxism, or environmentalism, or all the other “isms” for which “climate change” is a God-given opportunity to spread their cherished message. Anyone who loves to solve puzzles. Anyone who is sceptical to the core. Anyone who believes in numbers and falsifiability rather than quality.
I imagined that the science was rotten. I was not the first to do so, and I was far from alone. Unfortunately, our voices were drowned out by the Ravetz’s of the world, those who would rather believe than investigate, those who think that quality is a substitute for falsifiability, those who find that facts are “an irrelevance”, those who don’t bother to look behind the curtain to see who the Wizard of Oz really is …
In short, the ones who didn’t notice that “at its core so much of the science was unsound” were the practitioners of post normal science. To answer Mike’s question above, that’s a perfect example of why Ravetz’s bullshit is dangerous — because it led to the world being duped into not recognising unsound science when it was staring them in the face.
Ravetz claims that the climate science fiasco could have been avoided by applying the principles of post normal science.
Me, I say it was caused by post normal science …
Mike (18:23:05) :
“To my mind this thread is increasingly becoming ridiculous. Even after receiving Ravetz’ unreserved apology for history’s past wrongs, what will you do? Ask him to scientifically prove he really means it? I might as well ask you to prove this ad hominem attack isn’t motivated by plain old anti-Semitism, given Ravetz’ obvious Jewish ancestry.”
Ravetz in his essay presented himself as an agent of marxism, not openly, but then they never do, do they. I may be wrong in this but I’m not the only one who noticed. I don’t need his apology for past wrong’s. All I need is for him to declare himself as a man who is abhorred by the evil that marxism is. If he doesn’t want to do that then all that happens is that I won’t believe nor even consider anything he says and that I will warn others. Nothing more.
Virtually none of them being continental mammals or birds, according to this WUWT thread:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/04/where-are-the-corpses/
Richard S Courtney (12:34:27) :
tallbloke (03:58:29) :
You say to me:
“Get some moral fibre, and stop trying to tell me scientists are pure clean and above such considerations. That’s how we’ve ended up in this mess. Climate scientists keeping their heads down and doing what they are told even though they know it’s cobblers. If objective truth is important, so is being true to your sense of right and wrong.”
What gives you the right to judge my “moral fibre”?
I have been fighting the AGW fraud for decades and it has cost me much.
I have never told you (or anybody else) that “scientists are pure clean and above such considerations”. In fact at (03:25:49) I wrote:
“Scientists are human and, therefore, they will each have inherent failings and biases. So, human weaknesses will affect the observations, interpretations and ideas of each scientist. These distortions can only removed by asserting that the observations, interpretations and ideas of every scientist should be pitted against each: as Willis says, science is a combative activity. The scientific Truth will then be established (until later overthrown) when the competition is based only on the observations, their interpretation and the ideas they indicate.
Richard, my apologies to you. I know you have stood up against the global warming dogma and taken flak from the alarmists for it. It is the institutionalized scientists who fail to do the same who need to get the moral fibre rather then keep their heads down and accept the paychecks from the corrupted institutions which continue to peddle the alarmist doctrine in the face of always existing and additional mounting evidence which disproves the validity of their agenda.
Two problems that “plain old good old normal science” has in addressing this urgent issue are firstly that while your: “interpretations and ideas of every scientist should be pitted against each: as Willis says, science is a combative activity.” sounds right and is what should happen, it isn’t what has happened, because the competing ideas have been suppressed and ruled out of court, and it has been made clear that funding will not be forthcoming for scientists who wish to pursue alternative possibilities. Thi should have set alarm bells ringing in the mids of true scientists.
Secondly, at the level of institutional agendas, driven by state level policy direction, the systematic method of ‘normal science’ fails, because there is no debate. The agenda is dictated by the institution which hands out the paychecks, and the scientists research what they are told they will get funded to research, and tend to come up with the answers expected of them so they will continue to get funding for further research.
We have known this for ages, and I don’t understand why in this debate there has been so much resistance to accepting that it is these ‘meta levels’ that Ravetz’ PNS ideas applies to. Instead, he is being accused of trying to replace the ‘normal science’ done at individual scientist’s ‘lab level’ with PNS.
I think this is a conflation which has led to much of the misunderstanding in this thread.
tallbloke (03:06:10)
tallbloke, when Ravetz says:
he is clearly not talking about the “meta-level”. Or at least it is as clear as any other of his pronouncements, that is to say, not very …
In any case, the achievement of factual knowledge is not a meta-level activity. It is what is done at the lab level. In the lab, we look for facts. So I fear that I disagree with you entirely … unless Ravetz doesn’t mean what he clearly says.
(Of course, since Ravetz has a such a high disregard and even disdain for facts and truth, it may well be that he doesn’t mean what he says, but instead he may be simply striving for “quality”, in which case all bets are off.)
Willis,
I’ll part with a final thought, though I doubt it will make any difference. I feel there might be too much reading between the lines on both sides.
I, for one, welcome the approach by the likes of Ravetz and Hulme, and can see neither the stealth (Trojan horse, etc.), nor the danger (Stalin-like consequences). Not that I expect much from it, but that’s because I’m too much of a sceptic. Nor do I see some kind of PNS replacing science proper. To understand anything in the world, science is the only game in town. In principle a complete model of particle physics should be able to explain everything that happens in the universe. In principle it should be able to predict today’s weather 100 years hence. In that regard I see no reason to artificially distinguish between ‘weather’ and ‘climate’. That said, I don’t see this happening anytime soon. Yet on the other hand I don’t see people’s (and scientists’) wish to predict future climate (or future anything for that matter) disappear either. So, here come some scientists/academics who wish to improve on the current state of affairs in Climate Science. You see Hulme proscribing (punishing, even). I see Hulme acknowledging that there is more than one way of looking at things. I have found that in the real world this generally doesn’t do any harm, even some good may come from it.
Now, it may be that my antennae are more alert for antisemites than for Marxists, but that could be due to the fact that one is closer to home than the other. There still is both a surprising amount of antisemitism as well as a surprising amount of missuse of antisemitic accusations. However, not once in this thread did I remotely smell antisemitism, but neither did I smell a Trojan horse. Hence I tried to convey the rediculousness thereof by stating that I might as well claim these accusations to be motivated by antisemitism. Judging by your comments I clearly failed to convey this.
As for dangerous ideas. Well, referring to Lysenko hardly constitutes scientific evidence of a causal link or mechanism between ideas on the one hand, and killings on the other. Ideas don’t kill people, people kill people. A plattitude, I know, but obviously true nevertheless. The is a considerable body of evidence that the exact nature of ideas bear no relation to preparedness to kill. Group dynamics and cognitive mechanisms are much more important. Also well known are the experiments showing that most normal people can quite easily be made to harm others. Ideology is largely irrelevant. No doubt this is controversial. However, as I said above, to understand anything in the world, science is the only game in town. Simply stating Marxists had a dangerous ideology; hence millions died (or, if you prefer: Millions died, they had an ideology, so it must have been dangerous) … that will sound perfectly cogent to most people, but as scientific evidence it won’t do. There was a somewhat analogous debate between Scott Atran and Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and others during the first two Beyond Belief conferences. Very interesting to watch. Harris’s claim that Jihadism (or muslim and other religious ideologies in general) leads to suicide bombing and worse was strenuously, and in my opinion much more persuasively, countered by Atran. And Atran is no relativist, postmodernist or religious apologist. Knowing some of the data and research involved, I believe that things are not always as simple as they seem. Claiming that Ravetz’ ideas could be dangerous, and supporting such a claim by historical atrocities purportedly caused by an allegedly similar ideology – well, that does not sound like scientific reasoning to me. And yes, to me that does sound like an ad-hominem attack. Probably I’m reading too much between the lines though.
D. Patterson (17:55:48) :
tallbloke (16:39:34) :
Which is a quote from Karl Marx taken out of the context in which it permits ruthless dishonesty and deception when used to implement the Marxist ideology. An expression of this Marxist ideology appeared in the form of Lenin’s description of the “useful idiots” who were ruthlessly exterminated in mass genocides regardless of their past Marxist allegiances.
Got a link to what Marx wrote which contains the quote in it’s extended context? Or are you going o secondary sources again?
Didn’t Marx famously say “I am not a Marxist”? What was the context of that quote?
Like Willis, I’m more interested in scientific theories than political ideologies, but I am curious about the demonization of Marx.
PS No doubt future regimes will have similar, equally ludicrous ideologies. No doubt millions will be killed, no matter how ludicrous the ideology. But banning Mein Kampf, or suchlike, is not going to stop this (amazingly, some countries apparently think this will work). Teaching people to think more critically wouldn’t hurt, but I’m not holding my breath. So what to do? Maybe a more scientific attempt at working out what drives people to behave the way they do wouldn’t hurt. Might not yield too much useful data, but then again… who knows.
Willis Eschenbach (03:49:38) :
In any case, the achievement of factual knowledge is not a meta-level activity. It is what is done at the lab level. In the lab, we look for facts. So I fear that I disagree with you entirely … unless Ravetz doesn’t mean what he clearly says.
Hi Willis. I agree with you that Ravetz tries to push his concept too far into the lab, but this doesn’t mean that the whole analysis is ‘relativistic tosh’. Let’s not shoot the messanger or blame him for what others have done which seems to align with his ideas and put it like this in a relevant concrete example:
Scientists establish the fact that co2 has a specific set of absorption bands at certain values. They also establish it has various radiative properties and quantify them. Other scientists measure the airbourne content and find it increasing. Someone suggests increasing co2 may be correlated with rising temperature. Lots of research effort goes into finding out if co2 is definitely causing increasing temperature. Proving the link is elusive, and even more money and effort is poured in, because if the hypothetical proposition is true, there is a big problem which is indeed urgent, given the rate of increase in airbourne co2 from human sources.
Studies are done which claim to prove the link. They get through peer review. Outsiders don’t get the chance to vet the claims, because the papers are highly mathematical and technical, and full of specialist jargon, and hidden behind a paywall.
A meme is born.
This becomes the peg on which a thousand other climate projects clamouring for funding hang their justification. The meme gathers momentum. At the policy table, Mr Chief Scientist says, we have a big body of evidence that AGW is definitely happening, and he can, under normal science rules, validly point to the chain of reasoning and inferentially supporting evidence which has all passed peer review.
The ‘post normals’ in the establishment pick up this ball and run with it as a matter of urgency.
Something has gone wrong.
Post normals in the blogosphere call bullshit, and start trying to put together the contrary evidence, much of it from outside peer reviewed literature, and add in the results of investigative reports which are finding out unsavoury things about the outside interests of the main AGW protagonists. Errors are discovered in the peer reviewed literature. Leaked documents show that there has been a subversion of the peer review proces, and data fudging. Sceptical scientists who have been sidelined come out of the woodwork and provide contrary evidence.
The battle has moved beyond the lab into the open media.
There is much more going on in all this than ‘normal science’. Scientific ideas which have big societal implications are no longer judged solely on their scientific merit, but become part of a wider debate or battle involving many other considerations. The Genii is out of the bottle.
PNS doesn’t cause this to happen. PNS is the description of what is happening, and the practical outcome of the processes PNS theory describes is employed by both sides in the battle.
People tend not to like the analyses of people like Marx and Ravetz because they expose the irrationality and partisan nature of human (dis)-organisation and people like to think of themselves as rational beings.
D. Patterson (17:55:48) :
tallbloke (16:39:34) :
But, if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists, ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be.
– Karl Marx –
Which is a quote from Karl Marx taken out of the context in which it permits ruthless dishonesty and deception when used to implement the Marxist ideology. An expression of this Marxist ideology appeared in the form of Lenin’s description of the “useful idiots” who were ruthlessly exterminated in mass genocides regardless of their past Marxist allegiances.
1) I’ve looked at the context of the quote, perhaps you should too.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/letters/43_09.htm
Nothing about dishonesty and deception there. Just the opposite. In fact, in this letter, Marx is proposing a scientific investigation into the causes of the state of affairs of his time, in order to enable a rational re-appraisal of the state of mankind’s collective consciousness. The letter ends with this:
“In short, therefore, we can formulate the trend of our journal as being: self-clarification (critical philosophy) to be gained by the present time of its struggles and desires. This is a work for the world and for us. It can be only the work of united forces. It is a matter of a confession, and nothing more. In order to secure remission of its sins, mankind has only to declare them for what they actually are.”
2)How is Marx to be held responsible for the actions of others which took place after his death? Are you saying Marx posthumously incited Lenin to murder millions of people? Where is your proof? Where are the quotes from Marx which advocate ruthless dishonesty and deception?
I don’t think there are any, but you are welcome to scientifically prove me wrong if you can.
Willis, you said:
tallbloke, when Ravetz says:
… the goal of achievement of truth or at least of factual knowledge, must be substantially modified. In post-normal conditions, such products may be a luxury, indeed an irrelevance.
he is clearly not talking about the “meta-level”.
On further reflection, he is talking about the meta level. Look at his definition of ‘post normal conditions’.
‘Facts uncertain, decisions urgent etc’. These discussions take place at the policy table beyond the lab.
I thought I fired you Marxists hours ago. You were told to clean out you desks by noon. You guys are like George Costanza, you get fired and keep coming to work and whine until you get to use the handicapped bathroom. That was a comedy, this is real. You all, are off the clock. Go home, where ever that is?… If this means you all have failed at your mission of pushing AGW upon the masses of unwashed, unimportant people; I understand the Young Pioneers are building camps in Siberia. Have A Nice Day
I am sorry. I meant Fascists. Sometimes, I get confused when around PNS… The only difference I can see is where you would be sending your dues though. Perhaps scientists would help us to understand the finer points? Are you the Godless ones or the Occult ones?
Mike (18:23:05) :
You quote me at
Richard S Courtney (17:53:30)
where I wrote’
“PS It is not hard to provide a definition of “quality” in any context if one has no intention of varying its meaning when using it in that context.”
And you dispute that by saying,
“ ‘That’ is an anaphoric pronoun, so ‘that context’ must refer to ‘any context’. The problem really lies with ‘any context’, which can mean ‘one (particular), some, all, or whatever’ (funnily enough it is context dependent). So this sentence could very well be interpreted in various ways. The more I read it, the more confused I became as to what was actually being said. Talk about “obscure, illogical and inconsistent contents […] written in a style that makes it an effort to read”. “
I could grab your ‘red herring’ and refute your silly argument, but I shall not. Instead, for the sake of progress in this debate, I choose to accept your argument as though it were true and to point out its implication.
If it is not possible to provide a definition of “quality” that is independent of interpreted context then “quality” has no true definition. This is because “quality” has any meaning that its user may claim it to have at any given moment, and the user is at liberty to change its meaning whenever s/he wants to claim the context has altered.
Therefore, Prof Ravetz can only be wrong (and cannot be right) to assert that “quality” is an attribute which can be used to assess the worth of scientific information. The attribution of “quality” to scientific information is merely an assertion of bigotted prejudice. And the purpose of the scientific method is to reduce – not increase – the effects of bigotted prejudice on development of knowledge.
Simply, your own argument says that the article by Prof Ravetz is a call for science to be displaced by bigotted prejudice (i.e. political, pecuniary, religious and/or social objectives).
tallbloke (03:06:10) :
Thankyou for the apology.
You say to me,
“Two problems that “plain old good old normal science” has in addressing this urgent issue are firstly that while your: “interpretations and ideas of every scientist should be pitted against each: as Willis says, science is a combative activity.” sounds right and is what should happen, it isn’t what has happened, because the competing ideas have been suppressed and ruled out of court, and it has been made clear that funding will not be forthcoming for scientists who wish to pursue alternative possibilities. Thi should have set alarm bells ringing in the mids of true scientists.
Secondly, at the level of institutional agendas, driven by state level policy direction, the systematic method of ‘normal science’ fails, because there is no debate. The agenda is dictated by the institution which hands out the paychecks, and the scientists research what they are told they will get funded to research, and tend to come up with the answers expected of them so they will continue to get funding for further research.”
Yes, but these “two problems” are the same problem and it has always existed. Simply, scientists need funds and they need to get sponsors who will provide those funds if they are to do their science. Hence, the science that most gets done is that which can obtain rich sponsors.
The sponsors are governments (e.g. Greeks funding Archimedes), businesses (e.g. oil companies funding geologists), and rich individuals (e.g. Richard Branson funding rocket scientists).
Lone individuals with little or no sponsors can break through and they sometimes have dramatic effects (e.g. a patents clerk and two brothers who sold bicycles), but they have always been exceptions.
Changing the nature of science cannot change the problem. And adjusting science to become ‘post normal science’ (PNS) can only make it worse because the views of ‘stakeholders’ will shout down the findings of the rare lone individuals. Indeed, as the Climategate emails demonstrate, this has happened in the PNS of climatology.
PNS is an attempt to replace science with political ideology. Science and politics interact (in both directions) but they should not be mixed. Those who value science will fight to keep it as independent as possible from political interference.
Richard
The scientists do not really want to talk with us anyway because they know we are POE’s(Purity of Essence:). Works for me. Does it work for you? Think about it… See: Poe’s Law.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Poe's_law