Climategate: Plausibility and the blogosphere in the post-normal age.

I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony

Guest post by Jerome Ravetz

At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information.  Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’  of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions.  We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.

Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real.  Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State.  This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions.  In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open.  If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices.  I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.

There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification.  In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable.  It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.).  When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute.  It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science.  The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.

We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case.  This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time.  Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming.  There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation.  Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2  had always previously been at or below that starting level).  Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.

In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one.  It seems that several causes conspired.  First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position.  Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal.  And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged.  It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message.  As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’.  Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.

Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us.  But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working.  Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective.  The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics.  The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab.  If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends.  The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs.  Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.

In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended.  Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3.  The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified.  Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six.  And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems.  As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards!  In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.

Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough.  So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world.  Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science.  And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision.  Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.

As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused.  In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science.  But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore.  We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’.  This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure.  Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet.  Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort.  All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed.  As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate.  Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.

Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere.  Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound.  By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course.  The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold.  For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’.  Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust.  Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’.  And then came the e-mails.

We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming.  Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits:  facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent.  In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt.  The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling.  What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.

Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse.  The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way.  Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance.  And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound?  The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped.  I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair.  But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).

Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed.  Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited.  Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost.  To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical.  For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community.  In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm.  In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance.  We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved.  Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation.  Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise.  And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation.  This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems.  The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.

The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls.  It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures.  Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment.  This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now.  A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty.  But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.

To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere.  The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme.  Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.

The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested.  To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey.  There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes.  The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened.  The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace.  The Climategate affair shows the  importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.

The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’.  And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means.  With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing.  But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries.  The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources.  With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly.  As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages.  Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions.  In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses.  The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty.  The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.

Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted.  It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse.  The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known.  But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science.  The  blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains.  Some parts are quite mainstream, others not.  The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other.  Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time.  Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com).  Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature.  Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.

Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere.  Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously.  And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised.  Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses.  But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different.  I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.

There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts.  The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’.  The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role.  For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant.  Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate?  The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression.  From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.

The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance.  For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode.  Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse?  There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture.  How can it be refuted?

And what about the issue itself?  Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming?  If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science.  The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection.  What sort of chaos would then result?  The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.

To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand.  In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication.  Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised.  A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science.  Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance.  The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas.  The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process.  Let dialogue commence!

——————-

My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay.  The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.

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February 12, 2010 2:43 am

Willis has asked repeatedly and in vain for a definition of “quality” as extolled by Ravetz. That an answer has not been forthcoming is explained by the fact that this “quality” is simply our old friend “ideological orthodoxy” dressed “in borrowed robes”. The extended network of “social actors” and “stakeholders” which will maintain and enhance this “quality” (i.e. enforce orthodoxy) is none other than a political commissariat of the Soviet type but postmodernised to function in a more diffuse way, a horizontal and seemingly haphazard structure, but, in reality, equally focussed and as surely directed as the Bolshevik system of fond memory.
Interrogating Ravetz re his views on AGW as a physical theory is a waste of time. If class warfare was up and running as it was in the sixties and seventies he wouldn’t be bothering his barney about “climate change”. Simply put, “the play’s the thing in which we’ll find the consciousness (sic) of the” Prof. It is all about the “narrative” by which is meant an ideological construct designed to exploit our environmentalist concerns – a form of seduction, if you will – in order to bring about a post-capitalist society, a dispensation formerly known as Socialism.
Ravetz’s central concern here is not with climatology or even with science in general, normal or otherwise. He views AGW as exposing the contradictions which his belief system insists lie at the very heart of Capitalism and from the conflict thus engendered he seeks to midwife a wholly new socio-political system. It is the classical Marxist assimilation of old Fred Hegel’s thesis-antithesis-synthesis monstrosity, as blunt an intellectual tool now as it always was, a cudgel for a scalpel as it were.
His purpose now, as ever, is to deconstruct Capitalism as he perceives that, at this point in history with the revolutionary option dead and buried, its deconstruction is a necessary preliminary condition to its destruction.
He waggishly calls for the “dialogue” to “commence”. Such a dialogue has proven time and again not only to be an ideological one-way street but also a political and economic cul de sac.

Richard S Courtney
February 12, 2010 3:25 am

Tallbloke and D Patterson:
There seem to be several confusions in the discussion here. And the plain speaking from Willis is commendable because it cuts through much of the confusion.
As D Patterson says, language is important.
Science exists as an attempt to gain improving understanding of the mechanisms of the physical world. And language is an essential tool that science uses
(a) to communicate observations, interpretations and ideas and
(b) to develop and/or refute those observations, interpretations and ideas.
Some of the language of science is mathematics. Some is pictorial (as, for example, when a physicist describes e-m radiation as acting like waves). And some is descriptive (when, for example, a biologist attempts to explain a symbiotic relationship between organisms).
But none of the language of science is advocacy of ideas, ideologies and/or theologies that are not derived from the scientific observations. Hence, there is no science when language is used as a tool to advocate ideas that are not derived solely from the observations.
So, D Patterson is right when he says;
“Yes, Ravetz would definitely have been more believable with respect to at least some topics of philosophy and science if he did not use Marxist wording and phrasing, Marxist theories, and Marxist debating methods in support of political causes included in the objectives of Marxist political organizations.”
Such language and causes are a negation of science. They attempt to distort the scientific observations, interpretations and ideas into tools for support of the political causes and, thus, they inhibit improving understanding of the mechanisms of the physical world. In other words, political language distorts communication and/or development of the scientific observations, interpretations and ideas and so distorts any attempt to gain improving understanding of the mechanisms of the physical world. The distortion provides e.g. Lysenkoism.
Please note that my above comments are true whatever the ideological, pecuniary and/or religious philosophy being promoted by the distortion of scientific language (I should state that I am both a socialist and a Christian).
And Tallbloke provides two confusions when he writes;
“The characterisation of science as an enterprise which simply aims to make ever closer approximations in it’s description of reality is an oversimplification of a form of knowledge which has far more influence in our lives than simply outlining the relationships between force and mass, gene and behaviour, gas and temperature. Where is the borderline between science and what it is used for? Ask Oppenheimer. Ask Werner Von Braun. Ask Monsanto. Ask Glaxo. Ask Al Gore.”
Firstly, the practice of science should not be confused with the weakness of human frailty.
Scientists are human and, therefore, they will each have inherent failings and biases. So, human weaknesses will affect the observations, interpretations and ideas of each scientist. These distortions can only removed by asserting that the observations, interpretations and ideas of every scientist should be pitted against each: as Willis says, science is a combative activity. The scientific Truth will then be established (until later overthrown) when the competition is based only on the observations, their interpretation and the ideas they indicate.
Determination of this (temporary) Truth may take a long time (as e.g. when the ideas of phlogiston, heliocentricity, childbirth mortality were challenged). But the determination becomes impossible when it is distorted by assertions that the determination is “an oversimplification of a form of knowledge which has far more influence in our lives than simply outlining the relationships between force and mass, gene and behaviour, gas and temperature”.
The determination should not be affected in any way by the fact that scientific knowledge has “influence in our lives”. Deciding truth on that basis is politics and it is not science. Indeed, it is a call for science to be displaced by politics.
Secondly, there is no confusion between technology and science. So, I shall ignore Tallbloke’s suggested investigations when he writes;
“Where is the borderline between science and what it is used for? Ask Oppenheimer. Ask Werner Von Braun. Ask Monsanto. Ask Glaxo. Ask Al Gore.”
I shall not attempt to ask either those in the list who are living or those who are dead. A scientist investigates the phyisical world and, thus, obtains information. That is all a scientist does. But being a scientists does not stop a person from being a parent, a driver, or anything else.
So, a scientist may devise a method to create a thermonuclear explosion and may construct a device that tests whether or not the method works. Thus, such a scientist has obtained knowledge. But a person who decides to drop such a device on Hiroshima is a politician or a tactician and is not a scientist (what knowledge is that act intended to obtain?) whether or not he was the scientist who developed the device.
Of course, a scientist may be employed by a company or government to obtain information that would permit use of a novel chemical or device. And the employed scientist may be certain that the result of his work will be used in a malign manner. So, the empolyed scientist may have a moral or ethical dilemma as a result of his/her certainty, but that dilemma is independent of the science.
All employees have similar moral problems but to varying degrees. Should a machinist refuse to make hammers because s/he is certain that some people will use hammers as weapons?
When all the confusions in the above debate are stripped away then there remains one essential fact that Willis has repeatedly explained better than I can. As Willis has explained, ‘post normal science’ is a denial of the scientific method that has benefited human kind over the past 500 years.
Richard

Rienk
February 12, 2010 3:48 am

liamascorcaigh (02:43:10) :
“He waggishly calls for the “dialogue” to “commence”. Such a dialogue has proven time and again not only to be an ideological one-way street but also a political and economic cul de sac.”
Indeed, but only for those that represent the thesis and the antithesis. Global warming is just a historic contingency. Global cooling would have been just as useful. It’s the synthesis that needs to be questioned before everyone is sick and tired of the whole subject. Please keep in mind that the solution to global cooling was exactly the same as it is to global warming.

tallbloke
February 12, 2010 3:58 am

Hi Richard,
What I’m getting at is the fact that the choices that are made about what science gets done by scientists, and how willingly scientists go along with those prescriptions from their funding bodies, is an issue of concern for all, including the scientists themselves.
When the british state’s science funding body decided to scale down solar research a couple of years ago, and concentrate funding towards yet more atmospheric science instead, there was an outcry (ignored) from many scientists in the field of astrophysics, but precious little backing from NCAS, as you might imagine.
Now You say these are separate issues from science, and I agree that on the strict and narrow definition of science you want to limit the debate to, you are right. But who wants to limit the terms of the debate and why? If you do it because you want to keep scientists hands clean and unsullied by dirty politics, it’s a false distinction, because every scientist is complicit in the policy the institution they work for goes along with.
All employees have similar moral problems but to varying degrees. Should a machinist refuse to make hammers because s/he is certain that some people will use hammers as weapons?
I did work as a machinist in the engineering industry, and I did leave a couple of jobs because I was asked to machine parts for tank turrets and nuclear submarines – yes.
Get some moral fibre, and stop trying to tell me scientists are pure clean and above such considerations. That’s how we’ve ended up in this mess. Climate scientists keeping their heads down and doing what they are told even though they know it’s cobblers. If objective truth is important, so is being true to your sense of right and wrong.

Adams
February 12, 2010 4:02 am

Perfect analysis from liamascorcaigh, the author of “May The Farce Be With You”. I thought James Joyce was with us again!

ScientistForTruth
February 12, 2010 4:05 am

I say again: isn’t it time Ravetz repudiated Marxism instead of writing in Marxist-speak and trying to improve on the Marxist plan? As I pointed out last October, we were warned in 1987 in the work ‘Changing Powers of the Political’:
“…it seems easy enough to…point out that the old predictions of the British Marxist J.D. Bernal about the triumph of basic research under socialism have proved hopelessly wrong, and that the demands of J.R. Ravetz of the University of Leeds that science be made instrumental and moral will destroy the enterprise whatever its short-term benefits.”
Folks, it will destroy the enterprise: science.
Ravetz wrote a paper ‘Post-Normal Science and the complexity of transitions towards sustainability’. He says
“Marxist political theory spoke of ‘leading contradictions’…as when local struggles of classes and communities interact with common struggles against external enemies…The crucial thing in our understanding of it, is that it is a compounded contradiction. We can see its historical roots in what Marx considered to be the characteristic contradiction of modern capitalist society…But there was more to it than that, in the resolution of Marx’s characteristic contradiction…In our terms, they shifted the contradiction elsewhere, thereby staving off rebellion…”
“The theory of Post-Normal Science…needs to be renewed and enriched…and so the best move forward is to raise the issue of Sustainability. For that I sketch a theory of complex systems, with special attention to pathologies and failures. That provides the foundation for a use of ‘contradiction’ as a problem incapable of resolution in its own terms, and also of ‘characteristic contradiction’ that drives a system to a crisis. With those materials it is possible to state the characteristic contradiction of our modern industrial civilisation, and provide a diagram with heuristic power.”
Essentially, Ravetz has had the Greens, the eco-activists and the left-leaning media eating out of his hand – as well as those who want to subject science under Islam, which I showed in a previous comment. He has been giving them the philosophical tools to subvert science and society.
Sorry, I don’t buy it.
Buy the truth, and sell it not.
http://buythetruth.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/climate-change-and-the-death-of-science/

tallbloke
February 12, 2010 5:37 am

liamascorcaigh (02:43:10) :
Willis has asked repeatedly and in vain for a definition of “quality” as extolled by Ravetz.

I’ve emailed him and suggested this might be a good central point to address in the followup he hopes to post in the light of the comments here.

MrLynn
February 12, 2010 6:43 am

tallbloke (01:14:58) :
The characterisation of science as an enterprise which simply aims to make ever closer approximations in it’s description of reality is an oversimplification of a form of knowledge which has far more influence in our lives than simply outlining the relationships between force and mass, gene and behaviour, gas and temperature. Where is the borderline between science and what it is used for? Ask Oppenheimer. Ask Werner Von Braun. Ask Monsanto. Ask Glaxo. Ask Al Gore. . .

You are confusing (1) the ontological assumption which a scientist must make (that there is a reality ‘out there’ which he is attempting to describe and explain), an assumption that essentially dictates how the quest should be pursued (the scientific method); with (2) the question of how any knowledge thus gained should be applied, a question which must perforce bring to bear all the tugs and pulls of society and conscience. These are separate issues, which some, like Prof. Ravetz seem to delight in confounding.
The first is not “an oversimplification of a form of knowledge,” but rather drills to the heart of the scientific enterprise: if the quest for ever-closer approximations to reality is to succeed, it must be conducted in a way that encourages open replication and falsification, and any deviation from that standard, whether for personal or societal reasons, should not be tolerated.
Of course there will be exceptions, for example a Manhattan Project during wartime, but in the ideal these will be seen by all participants as deviations for the norm, as regrettable in the extreme, and temporary. The point is that where personal or societal pressures come to bear on the ‘pure’ pursuit of science, they have to be evaluated separately and judged on their own merits. The ‘enterprise’ of science cannot become the handmaiden of political, social, ideological, or personal agendas without becoming distorted and losing its essential nature as the unalloyed quest for knowledge.
/Mr Lynn

MrLynn
February 12, 2010 7:07 am

Erratum: Last paragraph, first sentence: “deviations for the norm” should be “deviations from the norm.” /Mr L

tallbloke
February 12, 2010 7:07 am

“The ‘enterprise’ of science cannot become the handmaiden of political, social, ideological, or personal agendas without becoming distorted and losing its essential nature as the unalloyed quest for knowledge.”
Newsflash: It already did.
The question is, what are we going to do about it?

Tom
February 12, 2010 7:17 am

Nobody seems to want to talk to me about Public Relations… simple stuff? Mike Tobis found had to leave and now the tallbloke… They need to talk about their science, it makes them feel important. I qualified myself as an ‘outsider’ and yet the tall guy won’t answer two simple and direct questions. Instead we get jibberish like this: “Get some moral fibre, and stop trying to tell me scientists are pure clean and above such considerations. That’s how we’ve ended up in this mess. Climate scientists keeping their heads down and doing what they are told even though they know it’s cobblers.”
So we are paying big bucks for a small group of insecure scientists to move their veiwpoints on what they precive as moral issues for mankind; forward? As a citizen of the U.S., I say may sense of right and wrong says, “fire the liars.” Now. What is the big decision? We paid and our employees have lied to us. What more do we as freemen of the world need to understand beyond that? So you were all taught Maxism along with science or was that just your hobby? You all(scientist) have a mountain of Space Science, that we could not do without, sitting somewhere; that has yet to be looked at. Do you folks think that is a waste of public funds and stupid science? I am so morally outraged I have gone long the ceder rail, tar and the feather, June futures contract. Like you said…”If objective truth is important, so is being true to your sense of right and wrong.” What you folks have done to your funders is by definition waste and fraud. Clean out your desks before noon… You are fired. Whew, that wasn’t so hard after all, now was it?

ammonite
February 12, 2010 9:06 am

Tom
of course, and at last we reach the hub of all this. That science cannot exist as a floating separate world, unaccountable to the rest of us who may not compehend the full machination of due process. There is though this overlap of accountability, of bubbling curiosity and driven vested interest in the scientific world. An annoyance to some, and perhaps a delight to others and naturally weighted by those pay. Climate study has FINALLY lost its missionary zeal – I hope.
This website allows displays of all this so well. Marvel then, that we the recipients of shoddy process, dark stories, are not unquestioning, not without wisdom with regard to the times of Dr Kelly, shock and awe, Copenhagen, Gore and hiding the decline. It is intimately part of the times we are experiencing and those in the name of science that deny, distort, destroy or hide are as reponsible as the bankers, the politicians, the individual.
This debate is brilliant, if the financial markets and political parties examined themselves the same way as paricipants on WUWT we might just get to a broad inclusive way to proceed in achieved wisdom. Is it too much to ask for an improved climate science protocol?

February 12, 2010 9:23 am

tallbloke, tallboy, tallguy, talldude
Is this you?
tallbloke.wordpress.com
Willis,
Are you sure you’re not my long lost missing twin?

Zeke the Sneak
February 12, 2010 10:15 am

The essential issue, then, is so-called “sustainability.”
What I suspect from reading this thread, is that those who might say they despise the AGW theory for what it is, scientific fraud, may still join forces with those who believe that action is needed to ensure human life on earth is “sustainable.” That would require more central control of population, natural resources, shipping and energy use.
The rest of us know that sustainability is Marxism, and reject it.

Zeke the Sneak
February 12, 2010 10:37 am

The crucial issue here, then, is so-called “sustainability.”
I suspect from reading this thread that those who despise AGW theory for what it is, scientific fraud, may still join forces with those that believe human life on earth must be made “sustainable.”** That would require more central control and planning of natural resources, shipping, production, storage, communication, innovation, and population numbers.
The rest of us reject “sustainability” for what it is: Marxism.
**”The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability…” paragraph 15

Brendan H
February 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Willis Eschenbach (17:08:18) : “Professor Ravetz, this is the reality of your theory playing out in the real world.”
I think Ravetz would agree, and I think this is one of his main points rather than any claims about climate science per se.
The way I see it, one of the things Ravetz is trying to argue – apart from the obvious that science doesn’t take place in a vacuum – is a new sort of science. It’s new because rather than being conducted behind closed walls, it’s happening for everyone to see. A sort of “democratisation” of science, which is a characterisation not too different from the notion of “citizen science” raised here a wjile back.
And that “citizen science” was explicitly celebrated as a new type of science, enabled by the new media, so that people far from the centres of influence on both sides of the issue can have a say.
The IPOCC process was a sort of democratisation of science, with its use of self-selected peer reviewers. But participation was also self-limiting, since only those with a high opinion of their own expertise would have applied.
And the notion of the democratisation of science raises another issue: how far do we democratise? Are all viewpoints of equal value? If not, who gets to decide what is good science (and knowledge in general)?
So I think that “democratic” or “citizen” science has its limits, and maybe what’s happening at the moment is a process that is testing those limits.

Richard S Courtney
February 12, 2010 12:34 pm

tallbloke (03:58:29) :
You say to me:
“Get some moral fibre, and stop trying to tell me scientists are pure clean and above such considerations. That’s how we’ve ended up in this mess. Climate scientists keeping their heads down and doing what they are told even though they know it’s cobblers. If objective truth is important, so is being true to your sense of right and wrong.”
What gives you the right to judge my “moral fibre”?
I have been fighting the AGW fraud for decades and it has cost me much.
I have never told you (or anybody else) that “scientists are pure clean and above such considerations”. In fact at (03:25:49) I wrote:
“Scientists are human and, therefore, they will each have inherent failings and biases. So, human weaknesses will affect the observations, interpretations and ideas of each scientist. These distortions can only removed by asserting that the observations, interpretations and ideas of every scientist should be pitted against each: as Willis says, science is a combative activity. The scientific Truth will then be established (until later overthrown) when the competition is based only on the observations, their interpretation and the ideas they indicate.
Determination of this (temporary) Truth may take a long time (as e.g. when the ideas of phlogiston, heliocentricity, childbirth mortality were challenged). But the determination becomes impossible when it is distorted by assertions that the determination is “an oversimplification of a form of knowledge which has far more influence in our lives than simply outlining the relationships between force and mass, gene and behaviour, gas and temperature”.
The determination should not be affected in any way by the fact that scientific knowledge has “influence in our lives”. Deciding truth on that basis is politics and it is not science. Indeed, it is a call for science to be displaced by politics.”
I stand by every word of that. And my stand is not affected in any way by your bluster. Indeed, your bluster strengthens my determination to stand in support of science aginst the pressures to be deflected by political and/or financial expediency.
Science is not a moral arbiter. It is an attempt to develop better understanding of the mechanisms of the physical world.
My “sense of right and wrong” may differ from yours. I proclaim that “sense” from a pulpit on Sundays. But my “sense of right and wrong” is not relevant to science. My scientific work has provided all my income throughout my adult life and I assure you that I have never – not ever – allowed my “sense of right and wrong” to influence my scientific work: the research leads where it may and I follow that.
Perhaps you lack sufficient “sense of right and wrong” to permit you to follow wherever a scientific investigation leads, but I assure you that many of us do not have that lack.
The article by Prof Ravetz and your bluster in support of his article demonstrate the danger to science that is presented by those who want pervert science to their own ends. I will continue to oppose that danger whether or not you think I lack the “moral fibre” to stop my opposition.
Richard

Zeke the Sneak
February 12, 2010 12:51 pm

Sustainability is the unspeakably filthy dream of Leviathon.

Editor
February 12, 2010 1:01 pm

Here’s my other problem with Ravetz. He is a Marxist.
Now, Karl Marx was the godfather and the intellectual progenitor and the genius behind both Russian and Chinese communism. As such, he is responsible for more deaths than any other human being in history. Stalin’s Marxist/Leninist regime was responsible for some 30 million killed. Mao’s version of Marxism killed on the order of 40 million. I’ll leave out all of the minor league Marxists who only killed a million or five million. And all of them, every one, killed in the name of Marx.
Now, you’d think that number of deaths would give someone pause before signing on as a Marxist. You’d think that maybe they’d try to discover and distance themselves from the parts of Marxism that lead to murder.
But Ravetz and others somehow have convinced themselves that seventy million dead in the name of Marxism is some kind of aberration. They think Marxism is just some innocent discussion of workers and capitalism, with valuable insights for our modern world. But seventy million died in the name of Marxism … coincidence? You be the judge …
So Ravetz admits he was duped by the AGW crowd, but he makes no attempt to find out how and why … no more than he makes any attempt to find out how and why Marxism leads to murder.
All of which makes me very leery of anyone like Ravetz. He, like Marx, is oh-so-reasonable, their hands are clean, they are pure as the driven snow, just innocent academics … but the end of the story is that people take Ravetz’s work and use it, like Marx’s work, to call for putting people on trial for being “climate change deniers”.
Again, coincidence?
You be the judge …
Which is why I said in my first post above that Ravetz is dangerous. Oh, he’s not asking anyone to try the deniers, no, no, that would be crude and wrong, and Marx didn’t ask anyone to hold show trials, no, no, that wouldn’t be right … but gosh, by some amazing coincidence, that’s what always ends up happening in the Marxist Paradise.
MIke Hulme is in shit up to his ass in the CRU emails, and Prof. Ravetz quotes him approvingly. Gotta love the ivory tower, it insulates Ravetz from all of this ugliness, keeps him from noticing that the people around him are liars and cheats, keeps him insulated from the show trials. And as long as he keeps that clothespin on his nose, he can honestly report back to us that everything smells just fine …
Anyhow, the good Professor is not doing himself any good with his continued silence. Tallbloke, if you have any influence with him at all, tell him that his reputation is currently circling the drain here, and he’d better man up, grab his left nut for luck, and defend his psychobabble. Because his time is running out to explain what he learned from being the dupee of both AGW and of Karl Marx. He wanted Post Normal Science? This is it, and it is eating him alive. Every day that his silence continues, his post nomal stock is falling.
But that’s another part of the essential nature of Marxism, it always ends up by eating its own children alive, so I suppose there’s some kind of poetic justice here …

Tom
February 12, 2010 1:26 pm

I think all of this can be reduced to this oft quoted query, “Is the glass half-full or half-empty.” Science has been beating around the meaning of it all for decades. Folks, it’s a half a glass of water. Whatever you do with it after that is your business. I am done paying for it… Heads roll now or you all are out in the open as crooks. Stop screwing around will you please. Do your duty as scientists. Stop enpaneling lies. I think we are reaching the end of our ability to take your constant “we need to know the meaning of is, before we can move onto what.” It’s BS. Can you folks just call it that? It is like talking to Rham or Barney, “the people are not smart enough to get or understand a straight answer…” I feel, so sorry for you folks. Your glass is Empty. You cannot “Make It”, in the real world with origional science, so you need to sponge off the public? Show us what you got; talk straight for once.

Rienk
February 12, 2010 2:43 pm

Willis Eschenbach (13:01:21) :
“Stalin’s Marxist/Leninist regime was responsible for some 30 million killed.”
This is very true, but the killing started straight after the revolution, and it didn’t stop after Stalin. Solzhenitsyn thought there were something like 65 million people murdered between the beginning and the sixties. I once tried to get a marxist to recognize that the killing of the kulaks was evil and he replied that he wasn’t a stalinist, but a marxist-leninist and that I should study harder to ‘get’ the difference. Sickening! So I’ll join you in asking Ravetz to defend his position and to every marxist out there, what about the kulaks?

MrLynn
February 12, 2010 3:20 pm

tallbloke (07:07:49), quoting me:
“The ‘enterprise’ of science cannot become the handmaiden of political, social, ideological, or personal agendas without becoming distorted and losing its essential nature as the unalloyed quest for knowledge.”
Newsflash: It already did.
The question is, what are we going to do about it?


Tom (07:17:48) has the answer:


“Fire the liars.”


Of course, that won’t happen until the academicians, and the politicians, and the Wall St. guys looking to make a fast buck in ‘carbon’, and the media all give up on the ‘climate change’ charade. And they’re not going to do that until it’s clear to everyone outside of ‘skeptical’ blogs that the game is up.
What it will take is for a few of the most prominent alarmists, a James Hansen, a Michael Mann for example—ten would be a good number—to hold a press conference and abjectly admit:
“It was a hoax. The books were cooked. There never was any unprecedented global warming. There is no danger from carbon dioxide emissions, and there never will be. In fact, the greatest danger our descendants will face is from the end of the current interglacial, when the Earth will once again freeze.
“We are sorry to have so misled the world. We must admit that we got carried away in our zeal to help create a planet-wide system of environmental governance. We now realize this was a misguided goal. The problems that mankind faces, some of his own making, have to be dealt with locally, by the people directly affected.
“We hereby retract the claim that burning fossil fuel presents any danger, aside from the kind of pollution we can easily control, and we agree that it is essential for the development of the Third World, and the continued progress of civilization and mankind. Thank you, and once again, we’re sorry.”
Then we can fire them.
/Mr Lynn

MrLynn
February 12, 2010 3:21 pm

[blockquote error—should read:

tallbloke (07:07:49), quoting me:
“The ‘enterprise’ of science cannot become the handmaiden of political, social, ideological, or personal agendas without becoming distorted and losing its essential nature as the unalloyed quest for knowledge.”
Newsflash: It already did.
The question is, what are we going to do about it?

Tom (07:17:48) has the answer:


“Fire the liars.”

Of course, that won’t happen until the academicians, and the politicians, and the Wall St. guys looking to make a fast buck in ‘carbon’, and the media all give up on the ‘climate change’ charade. And they’re not going to do that until it’s clear to everyone outside of ‘skeptical’ blogs that the game is up.
What it will take is for a few of the most prominent alarmists, a James Hansen, a Michael Mann for example—ten would be a good number—to hold a press conference and abjectly admit:
“It was a hoax. The books were cooked. There never was any unprecedented global warming. There is no danger from carbon dioxide emissions, and there never will be. In fact, the greatest danger our descendants will face is from the end of the current interglacial, when the Earth will once again freeze.
“We are sorry to have so misled the world. We must admit that we got carried away in our zeal to help create a planet-wide system of environmental governance. We now realize this was a misguided goal. The problems that mankind faces, some of his own making, have to be dealt with locally, by the people directly affected.
“We hereby retract the claim that burning fossil fuel presents any danger, aside from the kind of pollution we can easily control, and we agree that it is essential for the development of the Third World, and the continued progress of civilization and mankind. Thank you, and once again, we’re sorry.”
Then we can fire them.
/Mr Lynn

February 12, 2010 3:24 pm

An excellent review which highlights how science, particularly the science of prediction, can be so easily hijacked and manipulated by special interest groups, particularly the money dominated ones. A global temperature rise of just 0.6°C has already had a significant effect on global weather patterns. Scientists predicting global warming by as much as 6°C this century may well be proved wrong, but can we really afford to take that chance? The issue here amounts to a whole lot more than just climate change, it is about mankind’s stewardship of our global environment, for the survival of mankind and the rich diversity of life we enjoy and depend upon. Our current development and industrialization has resulted in the steady extinction of species, which has now reached over 1,000 per year and we are using up our natural resources at a rate which will leave little remaining for our unfortunate descendants. It is time that the ‘GRAB’ for the world’s natural resources by the multinationals was brought to an abrupt halt and that governments around the world deshackle themselves from corporate purse strings. Colin, Dominica http://www.dominica.nu

Editor
February 12, 2010 3:48 pm

Colin (15:24:08)

An excellent review which highlights how science, particularly the science of prediction, can be so easily hijacked and manipulated by special interest groups, particularly the money dominated ones. A global temperature rise of just 0.6°C has already had a significant effect on global weather patterns.

Cite? As far as I know there is absolutely no evidence to support this claim. We don’t have enough data, or enough understanding, to say anything about the “global weather patterns” a century ago, much less how they might have changed.

Scientists predicting global warming by as much as 6°C this century may well be proved wrong, but can we really afford to take that chance?

Depends on what the chance is, doesn’t it. One in a hundred? One in a million? Some scientists predict global warming of 10C. Some scientists predict a return to the ice age. But they give no odds, and have no evidence. If you believe them, you’re an idi … umm … well, let me say an “easily convinced person” and let it go at that.
Your idea that we should ALL PANIC because of some scientist’s wet catastrophe dream is a sick joke. We can’t predict next month’s weather, and yet you want me to take action because of what some so-called “scientist” says about what climate will look like a hundred years from now?
Sorry, I’ll pass … go peddle your Chicken Little scare stories elsewhere.

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