Climategate: Plausibility and the blogosphere in the post-normal age.

I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony

Guest post by Jerome Ravetz

At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information.  Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’  of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions.  We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.

Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real.  Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State.  This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions.  In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open.  If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices.  I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.

There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification.  In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable.  It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.).  When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute.  It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science.  The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.

We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case.  This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time.  Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming.  There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation.  Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2  had always previously been at or below that starting level).  Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.

In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one.  It seems that several causes conspired.  First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position.  Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal.  And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged.  It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message.  As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’.  Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.

Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us.  But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working.  Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective.  The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics.  The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab.  If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends.  The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs.  Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.

In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended.  Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3.  The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified.  Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six.  And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems.  As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards!  In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.

Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough.  So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world.  Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science.  And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision.  Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.

As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused.  In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science.  But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore.  We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’.  This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure.  Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet.  Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort.  All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed.  As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate.  Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.

Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere.  Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound.  By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course.  The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold.  For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’.  Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust.  Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’.  And then came the e-mails.

We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming.  Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits:  facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent.  In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt.  The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling.  What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.

Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse.  The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way.  Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance.  And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound?  The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped.  I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair.  But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).

Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed.  Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited.  Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost.  To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical.  For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community.  In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm.  In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance.  We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved.  Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation.  Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise.  And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation.  This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems.  The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.

The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls.  It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures.  Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment.  This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now.  A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty.  But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.

To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere.  The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme.  Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.

The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested.  To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey.  There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes.  The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened.  The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace.  The Climategate affair shows the  importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.

The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’.  And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means.  With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing.  But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries.  The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources.  With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly.  As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages.  Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions.  In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses.  The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty.  The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.

Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted.  It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse.  The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known.  But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science.  The  blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains.  Some parts are quite mainstream, others not.  The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other.  Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time.  Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com).  Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature.  Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.

Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere.  Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously.  And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised.  Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses.  But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different.  I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.

There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts.  The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’.  The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role.  For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant.  Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate?  The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression.  From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.

The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance.  For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode.  Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse?  There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture.  How can it be refuted?

And what about the issue itself?  Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming?  If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science.  The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection.  What sort of chaos would then result?  The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.

To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand.  In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication.  Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised.  A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science.  Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance.  The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas.  The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process.  Let dialogue commence!

——————-

My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay.  The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.

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Editor
February 11, 2010 3:08 pm

tallbloke (14:02:27)

Willis Eschenbach (13:49:11) :

Roger, thanks for your further comments. You say:

I can’t and won’t answer for exact meaning of Jerry Ravetz words. I am not his advocate or spokesman. He may clarify some of these definitions in the followup post he intends to write, or he may refer you to a passage of text adjacent to the small part of his writing you excerpted.

So are you unwilling to say what “quality” is, or are you unable to say what “quality” is, or what? Look, the guy is here at your invitation, you obviously believe his PNS theory

No. I think there are elements of what he says about the way science is practised and the way knowledge is evaluated which are interesting and worthy of discussion, but I am not an adherent of anyones philosophy but my own.

Doesn’t answer my question. Are you unwilling or are you unable to say what you think he means by “quality”?
w.

Editor
February 11, 2010 3:25 pm

tallbloke (14:10:37) : edit

Willis Eschenbach (13:57:09) :

You’ll have to give us another example of Popperian falsifiability, because I don’t see falsifiability at play in your example at all. Unless I’m missing something obvious (which is always possible and perhaps even probable) nothing in your experiment falsified anything. Nor was it designed to. It was designed, as you say, to confirm something, not to falsify anything … what am I missing here?

Wel that’s the point of the example really. We hear much talk about the scientific method being designed to produce theories with falsifiable content, but out at the limits of knowledge, such as subatomic physics, a kind of confirmation bias can creep in. You think you know what you are looking for, so you design things to find it. Can you imagine the pro vice chancellors reaction when you tell him you need anothr ltimillion pound particle buster so you can confirm quarks which exhibit cheekiness don’t exist?
He’s going to say something like:
“Why can’t you be more like th philosophy department? All they ask me to pay for is paper, pencils, and waste baskets.
🙂

And this negates the Popperian idea of falsifiability how?
Look, there are two parts of science. Discovering new stuff, and poking holes in new and old stuff. As you point out, it’s generally easier to get money for the former.
So? That doesn’t make falsifiability obsolete. Quite the opposite, it makes it more important.

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 3:34 pm

Willis Eschenbach (15:08:52) :
Doesn’t answer my question. Are you unwilling or are you unable to say what you think he means by “quality”?

Willis, he spends half a book banging on about it. How do you expect me to summarize it in a short blog post?
Where shall we start? Aristotle?
I think he means ‘unquantifiable stuff we have to assess by other methods’.
I never ‘got’ ethics myself. That’s probably why I study orbital motion and ocean heat content. Geometry and Joules is something my engineering training equipped me better to deal with.
If your contention is that “we don’t need no steenking sociology of science”, then fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. I doubt we will learn from the lessons of the past unless we examine the reasons why the madness of crowds exhibits itself even in the hallowed halls of our institutions of science however.

D. Patterson
February 11, 2010 3:52 pm

tallbloke (15:34:10)
Where shall we start?

Let’s “cut to the chase” by asking Jerry Ravetz if he agrees or disagrees with the proposition: “objective Truth, particularly in science, does not exist.”

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 4:00 pm

Willis Eschenbach (15:25:01) :
Look, there are two parts of science. Discovering new stuff, and poking holes in new and old stuff. As you point out, it’s generally easier to get money for the former.
So? That doesn’t make falsifiability obsolete. Quite the opposite, it makes it more important.

Agreed. So we need to make sure science doesn’t become the tool of legitimisation for policy makers/piper payers rather than their watchdog.
Oops, back to politics already.
How do we ensure academic and scientific independence? In the past, there were groups of workers who banded together in unions and put cash in the pot to build free schools and libraries, in order to avoid the state propaganda and it’s insidious effect on young minds. The last worker built free library in my home town got turned into a brew-pub 20 years ago.
The internet seems to be the refuge of independent thought these days, though a quick look at google stats will tell you most people are more interested in what Barbie is wearing this week than what Popper said 90 years ago. Nonetheless, we seem to have been having quite a big effect with our alternative facts and leaked documents in the last few months, so there is hope yet.

Rienk
February 11, 2010 4:00 pm

tallbloke (12:07:15) :
“A few seem to regard him as some kind of ‘godfather of fraudulent science’.”
If you were refering to my remarks, I believe I can explain that with sufficient quality: I’m Dutch.
But no, I don’t consider Ravetz a godfather. Just higher up from pawns like Jones and Mann. He tries to frame the field at a higher level than just climate science, a bishop perhaps. And I have noted like others that what he writes and how he writes it has more to do with marxist dialectic or the art of controversy than with science.

D. Patterson
February 11, 2010 4:10 pm

Rienk (16:00:36) :
And I have noted like others that what he writes and how he writes it has more to do with marxist dialectic or the art of controversy than with science.

Yes, and it is tragic how few scientists have any concept or understanding of what “marxist dialectic” is or means with respect to political science or any science whatsoever.

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 4:12 pm

D. Patterson (15:52:42) :
Let’s “cut to the chase” by asking Jerry Ravetz if he agrees or disagrees with the proposition: “objective Truth, particularly in science, does not exist.”

Naieve realism is a position taken by people who don’t have the time or inclination to closely examine the lack of solidity underlying their assumptions about mind and matter.
For practical purposes, we put those issues of ontology to one side and believe that G=Mm/r^2, though we know Einstein tells us it doesn’t. I find it interesting that you use a capital letter for the word truth. Some people do that with the word god too.

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 4:21 pm

Rienk (16:00:36) :
tallbloke (12:07:15) :
“A few seem to regard him as some kind of ‘godfather of fraudulent science’.”
If you were refering to my remarks, I believe I can explain that with sufficient quality: I’m Dutch.
But no, I don’t consider Ravetz a godfather. Just higher up from pawns like Jones and Mann. He tries to frame the field at a higher level than just climate science, a bishop perhaps. And I have noted like others that what he writes and how he writes it has more to do with marxist dialectic or the art of controversy than with science.

Would you find him more believable if he wrote in the style of Ludwig Wittgenstein or Maynard Keynes? Attempting to understand processes or behaviour at a more general level is not a crime, even if you get it wrong. I agree that he courts controversy. It’s an effective way to engender lively debate. And no bad thing say I. This is the most active thread on WUWT all week or more. It’s been pretty interesting too.

February 11, 2010 4:22 pm

Tallbloke – you and I had some interesting dialogue about Ravetz last November when Climategate blew up. As far as I’m concerned I well and truly rumbled Mike Hulme and Jerry Ravetz on October 31:
http://buythetruth.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/climate-change-and-the-death-of-science/
You were then, and still are, an apologist for him.
Something that kinda bothers me – if, as you say, Ravetz has had a late conversion and realized he was duped, how come he hasn’t repudiated his former positions? Why not say he was wrong on all those issues that were so deadly? Why hasn’t he repudiated the ‘Post-Normal Times’ and their brazen AGW advocacy?
On November 30 you wrote me
“I agree that the climate situation is non-urgent and therefore shouldn’t qualify for Ravetzian ’special measures’”.
In other words, Ravetz should never have lumped in Climate Change with the other issues he claims need to have PNS applied to them. Well, does Ravetz agree with that assessment? If so, will he please clearly repudiate the application of PNS to climate science? If not, when he writes and you write as his apologist he sounds like mr-facing-both-ways.
I wrote you as follows on November 28:
“From the quote you included above, Ravetz is seen to be begging the question – not a good sign in a philosopher. To include “global climate change” in a list with increasing incidences of new-variant CJD, infertility, and asthma is completely disingenuous. Those things and their trends are all relatively easily measured and diagnosed. Ravetz is not stupid – he was originally a mathematician – and he knows a lot about numbers, so he knows that he is pulling the wool over our eyes by including climate change in a list of diseases that affect populations of discrete entities. Is the incidence of “global climate change” increasing? Do we have a population of thousands of other similar earths with which to compare our earth?
Moreover, if a patient presents with CJD, you know from experience that it’s life threatening and not the natural state. You might have difficulty finding the causes and dealing with them, but you know for certain that this is not the normal state of affairs. The same can’t be said of “global climate change”. Ravetz has absolutely no grounds to say that “global climate change” is a “serious, perhaps very threatening problem”, nor should he include it in a list of things that are measurably increasing and deleterious. People have died of asthma and CJD, so there cannot be the slightest doubt that they are “serious…very threatening” – we know the likely prognoses. But climate change has been happening for thousands of years, and no one has yet been able to demonstrate that this is anything but a normal state of affairs – natural variation – nor can we make any realistic prognosis. What Ravetz has done is assume that climate change is an unnatural phenomenon with a deadly causative agent (anthropogenic, of course!) – he assumes the ‘normal’ science can tell him that, so that the ‘post-normal’ science can be applied to the allegedly difficult problems it throws up. But you don’t need policies to deal with things that haven’t been shown to be problems in the first place– don’t waste your time chasing those shadows when there are plenty of real problems in the world that can be diagnosed and dealt with.”
By the way, you (and maybe Ravetz) possibly knew my sister when she was at Leeds university in the ’70s studying history – she was the one who was always avidly reading Marxism Today 🙂
I was at Oxford reading physics.

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 4:27 pm

ScientistForTruth (16:22:55) :
Tallbloke – you and I had some interesting dialogue about Ravetz last November when Climategate blew up.
You were then, and still are, an apologist for him.

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

D. Patterson
February 11, 2010 4:36 pm

Re: tallbloke (16:12:40) :
Why Jerry Ravetz, myself, you, or anyone else agrees or disagrees with a proposition is an altogether different topic. At this moment I am asking only whether Jerry Ravetz agrees or disagrees with that proposition. Depending upon his response, we can then address further issues about the subject, even perhaps what such a proposition does or does not mean to science.

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 4:51 pm

ScientistForTruth (16:22:55) :
Tallbloke – you and I had some interesting dialogue about Ravetz last November when Climategate blew up.

Yes, and just for the record, here’s how I left the matter on your blog:
tallbloke November 30, 2009 at 4:47 pm
SFT: I can agree with some of that.
Good, because I agree with pretty much everything you’ve written in this last post. Except this:
SFT: I don’t think we should countenance ‘post-normal’ activities and massive political machinations (such as we now have) until ‘normal’ science has given answers to those. It is nowhere near giving an answer to those
It not a matter of countenancing it, it’s happening from both sides whether we like it or not, and while this is unfavourable to the signal/noise ratio, we shouldn’t ignore it or pretend it’s not happening. We should let those who wish to fight fire with fire get on with it, and be happy for them to use the results of the normal science we produce to do it, along with their other ‘extended facts’ (Al Gore is a jetsetting hypocrite, Michael Mann has his head upside down etc).
I agree that the climate situation is non-urgent and therefore shouldn’t qualify for Ravetzian ’special measures’, but since the other camp does, and they have had the ear of government, there is no choice but to enter the fray, or at least support those willing to.
Ravetz taught me some of my history and philosophy of science, so I emailed him and got a reply.
He says wattsupwiththat.com is a great PNS site, and that your criticism is valuable to him because it told him he hadn’t emphasized key factors such as integrity well enough. He also asked my opinion about what would become of science in the wake of the climategate scandal. It’s clear that he is re-evaluating his assumptions about the ‘normal’ climate science too.
Every good scientist should be prepared to re-evaluate assumptions, follow the data, and be prepared to let the chips fall where they may. Politicians on the other hand, like their five year plan, and hate admitting past errors. It’s an essential tension in the relationship between truth and power.
The synthesis of this Hegelian dialectical opposition lies in the action of the informed PNS blogosphere to kick the collective arses of the rotten institutional scientists and rotten politicians and help get science back on track.
Interesting times indeed.

Editor
February 11, 2010 5:08 pm

tallbloke (15:34:10)

Willis Eschenbach (15:08:52) :

Doesn’t answer my question. Are you unwilling or are you unable to say what you think he means by “quality”?

Willis, he spends half a book banging on about it. How do you expect me to summarize it in a short blog post?
Where shall we start? Aristotle?
I think he means ‘unquantifiable stuff we have to assess by other methods’.
I never ‘got’ ethics myself. That’s probably why I study orbital motion and ocean heat content. Geometry and Joules is something my engineering training equipped me better to deal with.
If your contention is that “we don’t need no steenking sociology of science”, then fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. I doubt we will learn from the lessons of the past unless we examine the reasons why the madness of crowds exhibits itself even in the hallowed halls of our institutions of science however.

Fair enough, tallbloke. You’re caught in the middle. My apologies, I misunderstood your position. I thought you understood what the good Prof was saying, and could translate it using far fewer syllables for us less endowed types.
However, as the time goes by by I’m becoming less and less impressed with the good Professor. He sticks his ideas up here (with no sign that he has learned anything from being the dupee) and then goes off leaving you holding the bag. So while I would say we do need a sociology of science, the Prof seems a little shy on the ethics part of the sociological equation … he talks about involving more people in science, but then he seems to think that doesn’t apply to him, he’s staying above the fray.
Color me unimpressed. Either he has the stones to stand up and defend his work, or I’ll assume that he doesn’t really believe what he is preaching and I’ll shitcan the whole thing. Professor Ravetz, this is the reality of your theory playing out in the real world. We’re involved, but you are giving us the same answer Phil Jones gave me … bupkis. Will it require an FOIA to get you to show your work? Yeah, I know it’s a snakepit here, and we may be long on a passion for truth and short on understanding “quality”, but that’s science. As Harry Truman famously opined, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. So like the priest says, Professor, speak now or forever hold your peace …
PS – tallbloke, I think that your description, a “sociology of science”, is accurate. On the other hand, the Prof’s terminology, “Post Normal Science”, and his use of the world “quality”, seem specifically designed to mean something else entirely. But I hear rumors that the ability to make words mean something they don’t mean may be a requirement before one is allowed to be a Marxist professor. I’m not sure about how it works, I’m just a reformed cowboy, but I think it’s called the “Humpty Dumpty Rule” at Oxford:

`When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
`The question is,’ said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
`The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master — that’s all.’
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. `They’ve a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they’re the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!’
`Would you tell me please,’ said Alice, `what that means?’
`Now you talk like a reasonable child,’ said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. `I meant by “impenetrability” that we’ve had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you’d mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don’t mean to stop here all the rest of your life.’
`That’s a great deal to make one word mean,’ Alice said in a thoughtful tone.
`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,’ said Humpty Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.’

I just hope that the Professor, as a good Marxist, is paying overtime to the term “Post Normal Science”, because he’s making it work extra hard …

Tom
February 11, 2010 5:15 pm

Mr TallBloke, Would you please address just why/how the people, are “irritating, but unimportant”; in this debate? Also just when and why did the Rational Man die? In this futerra.uk PR /AGW, piece “rules of the game”, it is stated clearly. A group is rational but the individual is not, He(she?)…is a myth? This is false or History is. Just what was your peer-reviewed evidence and how was the opinion arrived at by the scientists do you think?
2. Forget the climate change detractors
Those who deny climate change science are irritating, but
unimportant. The argument is not about if we should deal with climate
change, but how we should deal with climate change.
3. There is no ‘rational man’
The evidence discredits the ‘rational man’ theory – we rarely weigh
objectively the value of different decisions and then take the clear self-interested choise.”
Just so you know, I enjoy thinking for myself, it is a process that gives me pleasure and I would say; so-far-so-good. It is what life is about… Isn’t it?
PS/ I see that futerra.co.uk have taken down their documents on this subject. I wonder why? People have been reading it recently, quite a few I hope.

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 5:27 pm

Willis, thanks for your understanding. I’m going to leave it to Jerry Ravetz to tell us what he means by ‘quality’, and if he can’t do it in a single post, he should hand out free copies of his book to all interested parties. 😉
Thanks for the Carroll quote, I always enjoy a bit of deep non-siense at bedtime.
Sleep time
Ciao

Christopher K
February 11, 2010 5:35 pm

Perhaps this illustrates science vs bullshit:
There are beautiful examples of this in Climategate where the Team, Mann in particular, refers to any contrary views as ‘crap’ (etc.). And indeed they are: if you accept that statistical standards are exemplified in the methods adopted by Mann, then you necessarily believe that the standards adopted by the community of trained and practising statisticians are ‘crap’. On the other hand, if you accept the views of pure statistics (if such a thing exists, but you get my drift) then you will believe that the climate change community accepts a standard of analysis that is dangerously misleading, viz., crap. They are mutually exclusive.
As a trained scientist you will side with the community of practising statisticians over the Team, who view ststistics as merely a group of techniques for manipulating (torturing?) data until it yields the result they desire, thus violating the principles of statistical inference as the first of many statistical violations. And it is here that you have to draw the line and say that real science must prevail. Furthermore, you also have to say that the views of the man in the street are not as valid as the view guided by scientific principles. To me, this is science.
Then the problems arise. As a practising scientist your existence depends on grants and publications and you have a family and a mortgage. It is easiest to take the path of least resistence to both. AGW became such a path. Especially for the great majority of scientists who are not particularly gifted and who can easily be persuaded that AGW is real and leads to grants and publications. To keep the ball rolling, for this is a virtuous even noble cause, you are quite happy for the politicisation to occur. The process of corruption begins and is about the only example of large positive feedback that can be proven in climate science. This is not science, it is bullshit, viz., ‘post normal’ science.

Richard S Courtney
February 11, 2010 5:53 pm

Willis:
Thankyou for your superb series of postngs above.
Your clear, rational and cogent remarks are accompanied with an addition of wit that makes them a pleasure to read. They stand in stark contrast to the obscure, illogical and inconsistent contents of the above article from Prof Ravetz that is written in a style that makes it an effort to read.
Your total demolition of the article is clear for all to see.
Again, thankyou. And please continue to publish your thoughts on WUWT. They have the quality of purest gold (i.e. they cannot tarnish, are hard to destroy, and are pleasing to see).
Richard
PS It is not hard to provide a definition of “quality” in any context if one has no intention of varying its meaning when using it in that context.

MrLynn
February 11, 2010 10:11 pm

D. Patterson (15:52:42) :
Let’s “cut to the chase” by asking Jerry Ravetz if he agrees or disagrees with the proposition: “objective Truth, particularly in science, does not exist.”

Without getting too abstruse, I think it can be confidently said that the scientist must assume the existence of an objective reality, which reality he can never realize, but can only approach (he hopes) by ever-closer degrees.
To assume otherwise, that there is no objective reality, that all is subjective and relative, is to invalidate the whole enterprise.
It is certainly fair to ask Prof. Ravetz if he advocates the latter assumption.
/Mr Lynn

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 11:33 pm

Bill Parsons (13:29:32) :
Tallbloke:
Your explanations, and others’ praise, should urge tolerance and better understanding of some of Ravetz and his ideas. I’m glad he’s had an advocate here to moderate this thead. However, I feel a bit frustrated by writing that walks so guardedly among so many other entrenched positions without ever seeming to stake out its own ground. Setting aside the questions of the future, you can’t do climate history without being mindful of the past.
What’s his take on the Medieval Warm Period, for example? Establishing a few simple milestones would go a long way to showing where he’s coming from. These standards would best come from the horse’s mouth.

It’s in his essay:
“And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems. As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards!”

tallbloke
February 11, 2010 11:38 pm

D. Patterson (16:36:31) :
Re: tallbloke (16:12:40) :
Why Jerry Ravetz, myself, you, or anyone else agrees or disagrees with a proposition is an altogether different topic. At this moment I am asking only whether Jerry Ravetz agrees or disagrees with that proposition [that objective Truth (with a capital T) is possible]

I don’t know, but I doubt it.

D. Patterson
February 11, 2010 11:38 pm

tallbloke (16:12:40) :
D. Patterson (15:52:42) :
Let’s “cut to the chase” by asking Jerry Ravetz if he agrees or disagrees with the proposition: “objective Truth, particularly in science, does not exist.”
Naieve realism is a position taken by people who don’t have the time or inclination to closely examine the lack of solidity underlying their assumptions about mind and matter.
For practical purposes, we put those issues of ontology to one side and believe that G=Mm/r^2, though we know Einstein tells us it doesn’t. I find it interesting that you use a capital letter for the word truth. Some people do that with the word god too.

Do you mean for us to understand that you believe the phrase, “objective Truth, particularly in science, does not exist,” can only constitute “Naieve realism”; and anyone believing in the scientific principle of objective Truth (truth, TRUTH, hturt) must somehow always be lacking “the time or inclination” to understand the limitations of their assumptions?
If so, I would suggest you are engaging in wordplay which serves to obfuscate the actual workings of effective applications of the scientific method.
Likewise, it is strange to see you exercise such concern over capitalization in yet another form of wordplay, which also serves to distract from the original question about the meanings of the words used by Ravetz in his above essay and other works.

I find it interesting that you use a capital letter for the word truth. Some people do that with the word god too.

Perhaps you should ask that same question of Jerry Ravetz, for he wrote:

Also, religion claimed exclusive access to the good in personal and social life, in spite of the historic evidence of great evils perpetrated in the name of God (Ravetz, My Work).
http://www.jerryravetz.co.uk/work.html

Perhaps you are simply taking exception to the criticism of the jargon being used by Ravetz?

tallbloke (16:21:11) :
Rienk (16:00:36) :
tallbloke (12:07:15) :
And I have noted like others that what he writes and how he writes it has more to do with marxist dialectic or the art of controversy than with science.
Would you find him more believable if he wrote in the style of Ludwig Wittgenstein or Maynard Keynes?

Yes, Ravetz would definitely have been more believable with respect to at least some topics of philosophy and science if he did not use Marxist wording and phrasing, Marxist theories, and Marxist debating methods in support of political causes included in the objectives of Marxist political organizations. As anyone who is acquainted with Marxist dogma knows, Marxism demands a partisan ruthlessness, as the following one of many possible examples demonstrates:

The sentence, “it is right to rebel against the reactionaries,” bears witness to this more than any other. In it we find expressed the fact that Marxism, prior to being the full-fledged scienceof social formation, is the distillate of what rebellion demands: that one consider it right, that reason be rendered to it. Marxism is both a taking sides and the systematization of a partisan experience. The existence of a science of social formations bears no interest for the masses unless it reflects and concentrates their real revolutionary movement. Marxism must be conceived as the accumulated wisdom of popular revolutions, the reason they engender, the fixation and detailing of their target. Mao Zedong’s sentence clearly situates rebellion as the originary place of correct ideas, and reactionaries as those whose destruction is legitimated by theory. Mao’s sentence situates Marxist truth within the unity of theory and practice. Marxist truth is that from which rebellion draws its rightness, its reason, to demolish the enemy. It repudiates any equality in the face of truth. In a single movement, which is knowledge in its specific division into description and directive, it judges, pronounces the sentence, and immerses itself in its execution. Rebels possess knowledge, according to their aforementioned essential movement, their power and their duty: to annihilate the reactionaries. Marx’s Capital does not say anything different: the proletarians are right to violently overthrow the capitalists. Marxist truth is not a conciliatory truth. It is, in and of itself, dictatorship and, if need be, terror.
Badiou, Alain. Theory of Contradiction–1975; Chap. 1 An Essential Philosophical Thesis: “It Is Right to Rebel against the Reactionaries”; (Translated by Alberto Toscano)
http://versuslaboratory.janvaneyck.nl/app/webroot/uploads/badiou%20theory%20of%20contr.pdf

I do understand Jerry Ravetz has been critical of Badiou’s works. Nonetheless, more than one Marxist, including Soviet officials, have reminded me in our conversations that telling lies, dissembling, or otherwise engaging in dishonesty with respect to reactionaries, non-Marxist or Marxist, is a moral act and a mandatory duty for a Marxist whenever it serves the Marxist cause of destroying Reactionaries. Given such a belief and practice among Marxists, non-Marxists or Marxist defined Reactionaries are engaging in self-destructive behavior if and when they blindly trust anything a Marxist says and does while assuring they can be trusted or indeed must be trusted due to their professional, official, and/or social standing in society. To validate this problem as a real world concern, a person need look no farther than the experience of the people of the German Democratic Republic (GDR) with the STASI secret police and the scientists and their own families spying on each other.
In a world where “the pen is mightier than the sword,” then words and their abuse can kill the unsuspecting. Jerry Ravetz and his essay above clearly encourages the distrust of current science due to its inherent uncertainties. In the place of our present scientific method, he proposes to broaden the peer review of science. He innocently suggests the blogosphere is a fine example of broadening the peer-review, but he leaves unsaid the further implications of his phraseology. From a Marxist point of view, any broadening of the peer review of science without the participation required from the proletariat or labor of society would be incomplete and an unacceptable and a Reactionary corruption of the rebellion against Reactionaries. Only by practicing consensus science in a socialist society can the social justice demanded by a rebellion against the Reactionary forces be achieved. Consequently, post-modern science must require not only consensus formulations of scientific theory, every scientific consensus must also serve the needs of social justice required and demanded by a socialist society closely adhering to Marxist first principles.
In other words, there is good reason to question whether or not the essay serves the purpose of using the Climategate scandal as a cover for persuading people to adopt an increasingly Marxist concept and approach to consensus science under the guise of a broader participation in current science. So, yes, Jerry Ravetz would have been more believable in at least some matters concerning the uncertainties of science if it were not for the implications inevitably present from his usage of Marxist language and the uncertainties in science and the rest of the Universe to open a path for the public to unknowingly accept a practice long sought by Marxist dogma and Marxist revolutionary overthrow of what they deem to be Reactionary forces.

tallbloke
February 12, 2010 12:38 am

Willis Eschenbach (17:08:18) :
tallbloke (15:34:10)
If your contention is that “we don’t need no steenking sociology of science”, then fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. I doubt we will learn from the lessons of the past unless we examine the reasons why the madness of crowds exhibits itself even in the hallowed halls of our institutions of science however.
Fair enough, tallbloke. You’re caught in the middle. My apologies, I misunderstood your position. I thought you understood what the good Prof was saying, and could translate it using far fewer syllables for us less endowed types.

Willis, like you, I prefer plain speaking, and try my best to be clear and concise. That said, when you are trying to get to grips with the way groups of humans interact, and how the power relations between people who are doing their best to get their point of view adopted whilst trying to appear PC and democratic play out, it is sodding complex and tricky to explain with common-sensible sounding one liners. It’s easy to take cheap shots at the dense and semingly obscure scratchings of philosophers on these subjects, but that can come across as grandstanding to those who know something of the nuanced complexity of human relationships and power politics.
If it really was as simple as someone standing up and saying, “look, here’s the objective truth about how the climate operates, so we don’t need to do this or that”, and everybody said, “fine, glad you cleared that up, we can all go home now”, then we wouldn’t be here having to fight the many headed hydra of the global warming monster.
It is deeply political, and pointing out how politics operates and trying to formulate concepts which aim at getting best solutions to problems in which conflicting and competing interests are vying for advantage is a thankless task which usually gets you shot at from all sides. If nothing else, Jerry Ravetz has caused passionate and intense debate, and got a lot more people thinking about the issues. In my view, that can only be a good thing, because the more people we have engaging with the matter and forming their own point of view about it, the less willing they will be to be led like sheep.
The authority of some scientific institutions will take a hit in all of this, and deservedly so, but science and it’s core values will survive and thrive in new venues like this one and elsewhere beyond the reach of politically subverted and financially compromised groups. Finding the cash for the satellite with the multi-sensing oojmaflip on board is going to be tricky though. Maybe we can become so successful with our pressure on NOAA and NASA they will take some notice and use some public money for the experiments we advocate. It’s got to be worth a try.
SDO looks like a good start
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/to-boldly-go-with-sdo/

tallbloke
February 12, 2010 1:14 am

D. Patterson (23:38:59) :
The characterisation of science as an enterprise which simply aims to make ever closer approximations in it’s description of reality is an oversimplification of a form of knowledge which has far more influence in our lives than simply outlining the relationships between force and mass, gene and behaviour, gas and temperature. Where is the borderline between science and what it is used for? Ask Oppenheimer. Ask Werner Von Braun. Ask Monsanto. Ask Glaxo. Ask Al Gore.
Instead of reading Badiou on Marx, or Ravetz on Badiou, go to the source and try to understand Marx’s own words in the historical context of the times and political situation he lived in. You might realise that at this present time, we torchbearers of climatic truth have more in common with him than most sceptical Americans would be comfortable with realising.
Right, off to work I go. Got to do my bit to keep te means of production rolling…
😉

Rienk
February 12, 2010 2:27 am

tallbloke (16:21:11) :
“Attempting to understand processes or behaviour at a more general level is not a crime, even if you get it wrong. I agree that he courts controversy.”
Oh, certainly it isn’t a crime at all, trying to understand is a very laudable goal. But I disagree that he courts controversy. That is not what marxist dialectic is, that is not the art of controversy. We have a saying about two dogs fighting for a bone and a third one taking it home. What we need is to do is identify that third dog and put him in the spotlight. Not doing so will make us waste lots of time over and over again.
So, time to ask a few questions. Why has all of MSM defended AGW for 20 years? Why has politics done the same? Why has the visible part of academia and scientific institutions acted so completely uncritical? Answer those and AGW will simply vanish. Obviously you’re then entering onion territory, as in more layers of controversy, more crying. But fortunately there cannot be an infinite regression.
Getting things wrong is also not something I care about. I’m rather a fan of Fred Hoyle, he was quite wrong and a very good scientist. Read carefully and study both sides of history, cheers.

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