I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony
Guest post by Jerome Ravetz
At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information. Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions. We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.
Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real. Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State. This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions. In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open. If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices. I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.
There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification. In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable. It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.). When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute. It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science. The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.
We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case. This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time. Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming. There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation. Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2 had always previously been at or below that starting level). Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.
In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one. It seems that several causes conspired. First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position. Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal. And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged. It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message. As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’. Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.
Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us. But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working. Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective. The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics. The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab. If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends. The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs. Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.
In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended. Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3. The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified. Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six. And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems. As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards! In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.
Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough. So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world. Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science. And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision. Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.
As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused. In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science. But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore. We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’. This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure. Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet. Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort. All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed. As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate. Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.
Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere. Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound. By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course. The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold. For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’. Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust. Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’. And then came the e-mails.
We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming. Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits: facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent. In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt. The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling. What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.
Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse. The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way. Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance. And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound? The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped. I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair. But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).
Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed. Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited. Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost. To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical. For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community. In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm. In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance. We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved. Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation. Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise. And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation. This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems. The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.
The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls. It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures. Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment. This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now. A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty. But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.
To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere. The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme. Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.
The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested. To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey. There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes. The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened. The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace. The Climategate affair shows the importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.
The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’. And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means. With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing. But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries. The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources. With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly. As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages. Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions. In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses. The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty. The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.
Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted. It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse. The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known. But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science. The blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains. Some parts are quite mainstream, others not. The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other. Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time. Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com). Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature. Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.
Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere. Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously. And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised. Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses. But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different. I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.
There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts. The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’. The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role. For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant. Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate? The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression. From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.
The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance. For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode. Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse? There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture. How can it be refuted?
And what about the issue itself? Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming? If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science. The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection. What sort of chaos would then result? The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.
To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand. In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication. Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised. A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science. Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance. The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas. The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process. Let dialogue commence!
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My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay. The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.
Why is it, that book learned, high IQ, well educated, natural scientists who have very good social connections and wealth alla ALLGORE? So concerned, about the self-taught, experianced, regular guy with just a high school education or less. hard working, beer drinking, just getting by like my friends and we don’t save much in savings, kinda of people. You AGW/PNS scientists don’t work for peanuts like Mr. Goodyear. He liked the automobile a bunch. He worked his ass off just so he could make a pile of money… You could not stop that guy, he just kept going on his own! My kind of scientist. No rubber science books at the time either. I thought man has evolved and we are all supposed to be feeling better? What’s Up With That? TALLBLOKE
As a widely read logician – and being far too old to give a hang either way – I’ve concluded that GW/AGW isn’t science. It’s pyramid selling. In fact, I’ll offer the world a brand-new name for for ‘Post Normal Science’: PONZIence. As for the good Mr Ravetz, I was with him most of the way until he mentioned ‘faith’. I’m not interested in faith. I want facts.
Bill Parsons (10:32:02) :
The tenets of Post Normal Science demand that ‘outsiders’ get the opportunity to have input to the policy forming process. Jerry Ravetz writes:
“This new peer community can also deploy ‘extended facts’, including local and personal experience, as well as investigative journalism and leaked sources. So Post-Normal Science is inevitably political, and involves a new extension of legitimacy and power”.
Sorry, but all this sounds too good to be true. An organization of unaffiliated intellectuals who are just out to see that “minority” views get a proper vetting. How egalitarian of them.
Is there any clear evidence that Post Normalists demanded such airing of skeptical viewpoints (certainly in the minority over the past three years) in the face of their own clearly-held AGW beliefs?
No. And I for one share your scepticism. The point is, PNS as a concept is what you make it. It can be remoulded and re-used, for example as a mirror to wave in front of those very people who have espoused their own version of it. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander as they say, and the irony of the way the sceptical blogosphere has made use of technology, the internet media, investigative journalism and leaked documents is not lost on Jerry Ravetz. He is old enough and wise enough to recognise a thoroughly deserved petard hoisting when he sees one. And he genuinely cares about scientific truth as an overarching concern too, which is why he has soaked up the information I have passed to him over the last weeks and written this essay. He was lied to and duped by mainstream climatology, and he’s sore about it.
Whether or not we care is another question, though we have welcomed other converts here with open arms. A few seem to regard him as some kind of ‘godfather of fraudulent science’. Maybe that’s just the scapegoating of an individual to avoid confronting the deeper malaise within institutional science and it’s pre-paid links with public policy formation. Time will tell.
‘Post Normal Science’ has successfully diverted attention away from evidence of corruption, deception, influence peddling and data manipulation.
If you can’t defeat them with facts, bamboozle them with BS!
That’s what it looks like to me.
Oliver K. Manuel
Thank you TALLBLOKE, Your answer was clear. I qualify as an ‘outsider’. Having read a whole bunch of stuff dealing with AGW & The-New-And-Improved-Values-Added==PNS… I know for certain that this stuff is a pile of BS. It is good to know. Trust me and save yourself some valuable time.
Mike Post (08:39:31)
Mike, I asked that same question above, and like you, I got no answer. But you see, Post Normal Science is about inclusion and “quality”, not about answering the hard questions, and particularly not about asking the hard questions …
w.
Me, I’m confused about what “post normal science” actually is.
Normally, you’d think the postnormalists should be able to tell you. But they can’t by virtue of what post normal science is in the first place: basically everyone and their mother gets to vote on what “science”, “truth”, “facts”, “good” and everything else is, so it’s always malleable as to what anything “is”.
Thus scientific meaning is destroyed, but so is the very meaning of words themselves, because you have to “vote” on those too, which obviously implies an infinite regress into nothingness.
The whole idea of postnormal anything is to produce a society where ‘might makes right’, and that’s all there is to it, because that’s the only thing which “means” anything.
Again, by virtue of what postnormalists would “say” about what it is, it follows that no one can know if s/he ever really understands what is “said”, including the postnormalists themselves. It’s about the same as “subjectivism” and “relativism”, which actually preclude the possibility that their proponents can even meaningfully state their own philosophies such that anyone would ever really know what they are talking about.
Unfortunately, you did not respond to my earlier question, and you now perpetuate the idea that Ravetz is perhaps being horribly misunderstood and misrepresented. I want to address your comments and Ravetz’s essay, but I first need to ask a question. Are you acquainted with Marxist theories and word definitions? If so, are you acquainted with Marxist theories and doctrines regarding the role of science in human affairs?
Many of the comments in this thread complain about the lack of a theme in Ravetz’s essay, inconsistent statements by Ravetz in his various publications, and other perplexing or bewildering problems with his comments. I would observe in response that Ravetz is much more understandable if and when the reader examines and interprets Ravetz’s statements firstly within the context and boundaries of Marxist language and theory.
I appreciate the oppportunity to read and debate Ravetz’s essay, if only to refute it and encourage readers to understand the faults in the essay and its underlying basis.
Tall bloke’s support for Prof Ravetz is commendable for its humanity and friendliness, but it is based on the authenticity (or not) of Ravetz’ deathbed conversion. What puts this in doubt as Willis has pointed out is that Ravetz confesses the sins of everybody else but not his own and then has the arrogance to lecture us on how to do science! Astounding! The insistance on PNS, obviously the corruption of method that enabled the entire AGW disaster in the first place, shows he has repented little. Conversion is only compatible with humility and there is none here except expressed for others. So just what is happening here?
The ruthlessness with which he casts away former colleagues in his history of the debacle, to preserve his own skin is most reminiscent of the Soviet Union’s callous disregard for its own soldiers after WW2. The term ‘useful idiots’ also comes to mind. So AGW was never the game itself but a fig leaf for a deeper project.
Is it a mere coincidence that AGW sprang into prominence around the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union? Is it likely that all the true believers in Marxism/communism slunk away or changed their minds at that time? The quote that science advances on the death of those who hold a contrary position says that even scientists, who must maintain the most open minds among us, find it difficult to set aside their presuppositions. How much less true believers in the god of Marx!
Lenin’s plan for revolution involved the early takeover of newspapers, the media of the day. How is the media doing now? PNS represents an attempt to suborn the authority of science, in the service of the undying plan to create a Marxist utopia, and this is one god that is not short of priests.
Science has dodged a bullet. Its long term total corruption was in view, but the resilience which coalesced in an unexpected place, has provided a reprieve. I hope that democracy itself will find a ability to overcome the threat that comes from those who find it a green field for totalitarian acquisition of power.
I don’t see how presenting a paper – formally formatted or not – at WUWT or ClimateAudit is Post-Normal Science or a resort to PNS
It is merely material that has not been published in the traditional forums.
Publish and peer review is both a protocol and an activity. Call it the PPRP. It is not Science of itself.
A faction in Climate Science used PPRP as a barrier for a few years to frustrate what they felt was inconvenient noise and/or barbarians at the gate.
Was it like this?
To be proved: Your work is garbage.
Axiom. If you don’t pass or use PPRP your work is garbage.
Constraint. If you are not vetted by us you will not pass or use PPRP.
Evidence. You didn’t pass or use PPRP.
Q,E,D. Your work is garbage.
The “tribal” explanation, among others, fits ClimateGate well enough. Is Post-Anything applicable to explaining rascals, falsehoods, and sloppy work?
Willis Eschenbach (11:55:18) :
Dear Mr. Roger “tallbloke” Tattersall:
My apologies, your name was indeed in the lead post. I fear that I was too busy alternately puking and screaming from the puerile and dangerous sentiments expressed in that post to notice. My bad, no excuses. Thank you for the explanation.
With that out of the way, could you answer my questions (Willis Eschenbach (00:18:29)) now, Roger? Could you explain what “quality” is, and why we should pay any attention to it? Could you tell us why we should not kick poor widdle Phillie Jones when he is down? You have left a whole host of questions unanswered.
Thanks,
Willis, thanks for that, I don’t want to fall out with someone whose work I admire, so I’m happy to accept the apology you have ‘manned up’ to.
Willis Eschenbach (00:18:29)
Ravetz:
It is when the textbook analogy fails, that science in the policy context must become post-normal. When facts are uncertain, values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent the traditional guiding principle of research science, the goal of achievement of truth or at least of factual knowledge, must be substantially modified. In post-normal conditions, such products may be a luxury, indeed an irrelevance. Here, the guiding principle is a more robust one, that of quality.
It could well be argued that quality has always been the effective principle in practical research science, but it was largely ignored by the dominant philosophy and ideology of science. For post-normal science, quality becomes crucial, and quality refers to process at least as much as to product. It is increasingly realised in policy circles that in complex environment issues, lacking neat solutions and requiring support from all stakeholders, the quality of the decision-making process is absolutely critical for the achievement of an effective product in the decision. This new understanding applies to the scientific aspect of decision-making as much as to any other.
Big list of Willis’ questions about exactly what Ravetz means by “quality”
I can’t and won’t answer for exact meaning of Jerry Ravetz words. I am not his advocate or spokesman. He may clarify some of these definitions in the followup post he intends to write, or he may refer you to a passage of text adjacent to the small part of his writing you excerpted.
What I will say is that you still seem to be ignoring the distinction I have offered to you three times, regarding the difference between quantifiable work done in the lab or field prior to the policy debate, and the arguability of conflicting scientific results from different places at the policy making table. The area Ravetz is referring to. I think if you could get your head round that, a lot of your questions would be resolved, because what you frequently hear from competing scientists with opposing results, is the accusation that the opponent’s work is of low quality…
Policy makers have to weigh up competing arguments thay are not really equipped to deal with. Furthermore, there may be other concerns thay have to take into consideration, societal values, taboos, cost implications etc etc.
Not all these things are easily or at all quantifiable, and so this is why Ravetz, who has in the past as part of his professional work sat on ethics committies and played a part in trying to untangle all these conflicting and competing factors, talks about quality as an issue beyond the lab door.
Popperian falsifiability is great in theory, but frequently can’t work in the lab, let alone out of it. One of the many examples i could give, having studied the subject for seven years as a mechanical engineer (I machined some of the bits of the CERN accelerator), is that of experimental equipment design. If you design an expensive to make piece of equipment to find a certain shaped bit of subatomic ephemera which whizzes past within a certain range of velocities, then that is what the said piece of equipment will find. It won’t find the different particle that no-one thought of yet which travels around in a different way. So finding the expected particle seems to confirm the theory, but has missed the other perhaps more fundamental particle which would cause a rethink of the whole classification and subdivision of the quantum field. the problem is, if you go tell the pro vice chancellor of the university that you need another ten machines, the bursar is going to have a heart attack, so you make do.
I also spent three years studying a degree in the history and philosophy of science, so I feel qualified to crap on about this stuff. 🙂
Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised. A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science.
I don’t know, does that load of subrational, elitist, denialistic, arrogant narcissistic controllism even need much comment?
Ok, perhaps another translation: we primitive tribes and pre-postnormal people just need some enlightened-by-self-annointment guidance from postnormals so as to get us to be what the postnormals want us to be, normal Slaves. But do I at least get my choice between Victory Gin and Lobotomy?
Tallbloke:
Your explanations, and others’ praise, should urge tolerance and better understanding of some of Ravetz and his ideas. I’m glad he’s had an advocate here to moderate this thead. However, I feel a bit frustrated by writing that walks so guardedly among so many other entrenched positions without ever seeming to stake out its own ground. Setting aside the questions of the future, you can’t do climate history without being mindful of the past.
What’s his take on the Medieval Warm Period, for example? Establishing a few simple milestones would go a long way to showing where he’s coming from. These standards would best come from the horse’s mouth.
Roger tallbloke, you say:
First, I don’t want a concept that is “what I make it”. I want something that is clear and solid, something that is a valid and unchanging guide. I don’t want something that can’t be “re-moulded and re-used” as you correctly say PNS can. PNS was adapted and championed by Mike Hulme of the CRU … coincidence? I don’t think so. It is specifically because PNS can be all things to all men, in the name of “quality” (which you still have not defined), that makes it such a piece of junk. It has no bones, it has no strength. It is New Age flim-flammery, that provides no rules, no guidelines, no means for discriminating between shit and shinola.
As a result, those of us who care about scientific truth and the scientific method were lied to as well, but we were not duped. Those of us who think that the essence of science is “quality”, on the other hand, were duped. You might reflect long and hard on that, and what that means about PNS.
Oh, please. Many of us, both here on WUWT and elsewhere, have been railing for years against the malaise of climate science with its pre-paid link. Trying to pretend that it is us and not Jerry Ravetz who are “scapegoating” is once again trying to blame the victim. Where were his brilliant insights when we needed them?
Look, Professor Ravetz is someone with a whole new view of the essential problems with science, and what is needed to fix them. I applaud his efforts in that regard. But since he got “duped”, as you say, and duped by what was obviously bullshit to the rest of us, that means that something is very wrong with his whiz-bang new view of science.
But in response to that, he just says ‘I was duped, but I’m still 100% right about whats wrong with science’. Sorry, but if he were right about what’s wrong with science, he should have been the hardest person on the planet to dupe.
I welcome true converts with open arms. Welcoming someone who says he was duped, but that his cockamamie vision of science requires no adjustments despite it contributing directly his obvious dupability … not so much. He couldn’t detect bullshit when he was up to his knees in it, but now he has seen the light and wants to lecture us on what bovine excrement smells like? Sorry, no sale.
If he were a true scientist, he wouldn’t come to lecture us about PNS. He would come to tell us what was wrong with his magical PNS system that allowed him to be duped. He would tell us exactly how and where he has changed his theory to reflect his new insights from being chumped by the CRU fools. That’s what real scientists do when they are shown to be wrong, they go back and re-examine their assumptions to see where they went off the rails. They change their theory to reflect the new facts. Has he done that? Oh, I forgot, he doesn’t believe in facts or truth, he believes in “quality”, and I guess he got such a high-quality reaming that he didn’t notice that he was being punkd …
Anything else is just a con job from a man who is very late to the party. He’s still pushing his same tired line, despite the fact that it led him down the garden path to Sucker City. He’s like a rube who just got taken in New York City playing pea-under-the-shell, but who now wants to claim that he knew exactly how the game was rigged before he went to the Big Apple.
If he knew how the science game was being rigged, he wouldn’t have been suckered by the CRU Three Card Monte crew … but he was. Doesn’t say much for the validity of his insights and his PNS theories.
This is the real point:
“the difference between quantifiable work done in the lab or field prior to the policy debate, and the arguability of conflicting scientific results from different places at the policy making table.”
Conflicting scientific results is the essence of science until the truth is determined.
The arguability derived from such conflicting results is pure politics.
Why should one merge the science and the politics and then call it post normal science ?
The only conceivable purpose is to utilise the integrity of ‘normal’ science to enforce a political decision which has adopted one of the conflicting results over the other for purely political reasons.
But that is a criminal deception because the masses are deprived of the knowledge that there are conflicting scientific results. Thus a specific political agenda can be followed by the governing elite along a route that they prefer for non scientific (usually ideology or power seeking or both) reasons and which might well turn out to be based on the incorrect scientific result at a later date.
And because a deception would then be exposed they have to continue the deception in the face of truth to save their skins despite the devastation that might be caused to the mass of the people.
Given how often conflicting scientific results arise they are likely to make an incorrect policy decision 50% of the time so the entire society collapses in due course as has been the case with every society in history that tried it.
PNS is not new, it’s not clever, it’s how power was always acquired and applied. Only the true and now, thank God, ‘normal’ scientific method ruthlessly separated from politics has enabled the past 500 years to be a watershed for humanity globally.
Poor old Ravetz is quite simply a dinosaur, a throwback, well past sell by date yet he doesn’t even know it.
Society moved on 500 years ago and he wants to row back to the Dark Ages.
Why do such people think they are radical reformers ? When they talk about ignorance do they look in the mirror ?
Sorry tallbloke but you’ve been had.
Roger, thanks for your further comments. You say:
So are you unwilling to say what “quality” is, or are you unable to say what “quality” is, or what? Look, the guy is here at your invitation, you obviously believe his PNS theory, how about you forget about him and just tell us what you think he means by “quality”?
If what happens after science in the lab or the field is what Ravetz is talking about, then it is not “Post Normal Science” at all. It is “Post Normal Politics”.
How is this a new question requiring a new answer? Science has always been tentative and uncertain. Even our most cherished scientific ideas are overturned on a regular basis (e.g. Newtonian mechanics, plate techtonics, ad infinitum).
Despite that, we’ve managed this state of uncertainty very well for centuries … so why do we need a new theory of science (which now appears to be a new theory of politics, since as you say it happens after the science in lab or field is done)?
And more to the point, how does introducing the idea of “quality” help us at all? One mans quality is another mans poorly done experiment, so where is the gain in focusing on quality? Especially when you, as a proponent of the method, either can’t or won’t tell us what “quality” means.
Willis, fair enough. I’ll just point out that not everyone has been as focussed on climate science as we have been. But I’m not out to make excuses for Jerry Ravetz, his interests in environmental toxicology have probably been nicely complimented by the party line on global warming, and he has been happy enough to go along with it in the past without looking too hard, probably because it has made his path easier.
There are plenty of ‘normal scientists’ in hard quantificatory science fields who have done the same for reasons of salary and position. They are keeping their heads well below the parapet.
tallbloke sez:
You’ll have to give us another example of Popperian falsifiability, because I don’t see falsifiability at play in your example at all. Unless I’m missing something obvious (which is always possible and perhaps even probable) nothing in your experiment falsified anything. Nor was it designed to. It was designed, as you say, to confirm something, not to falsify anything … what am I missing here?
Willis Eschenbach (13:49:11) :
Roger, thanks for your further comments. You say:
I can’t and won’t answer for exact meaning of Jerry Ravetz words. I am not his advocate or spokesman. He may clarify some of these definitions in the followup post he intends to write, or he may refer you to a passage of text adjacent to the small part of his writing you excerpted.
So are you unwilling to say what “quality” is, or are you unable to say what “quality” is, or what? Look, the guy is here at your invitation, you obviously believe his PNS theory
No. I think there are elements of what he says about the way science is practised and the way knowledge is evaluated which are interesting and worthy of discussion, but I am not an adherent of anyones philosophy but my own.
The scientific process is simple. Most pursuits of truth are simple. Anyone who attempts to complicate the process is merely attempting to control it for their own agenda.
The scientist is a truth seeker and a protector of the common good by ensuring that truth is available to common people. Openness and honesty with self and others is the building block of all scientific works.
Some of the best scientists and politicians are non-career participants who stand to gain little fame or fortune by doing their work. They provide their services when the need arises and they get out when they are no longer needed. These days, with career scientists and politicians, we see an anything goes routine in an effort to stay in office or pursue tenure.
The AGW storyline results in a trillion dollar wholesale conversion of society, funded by a tax to the common person. This is why we find science-minded honest people have dedicated their lives (WUWT, ClimateAudit, etc) to providing the truth.
Everyone has access to science, anyone can refute the claims of a storyline, the authority resides within all of us to act on behalf of what is true and good in this world.
There need not be an effort to repair science to the level of the public trust. The public should never be complacent to trust science to get it right. The skepticism of the public is the greatest power to science and ultimately what is causing this healing process.
Ravetz’ article mingles truth with falsehood and ultimately becomes rhetoric. Any detailed review of Ravetz’ writings will show that he has long been on the wrong side of the common good. Although I believe his reconciliation may be honest and timely. HE SHOULD NOT BE ENLISTED TO “CHAMPION” THE CALL BACK TO HONEST SCIENCE AND THE PURSUIT OF TRUTH IN THE CLASSICAL SENSE.
He should be carefully monitored along with other like minded associate, many of whom are referenced at http://www.postnormaltimes.com.
Best Regards,
Brian Schaible
@ur momisugly Willis Eschenbach
“But you see, Post Normal Science is about inclusion and “quality”, not about answering the hard questions, and particularly not about asking the hard questions …”
This is also pretty much a definition of that modern malaise Political Correctness…
Willis Eschenbach (13:57:09) :
You’ll have to give us another example of Popperian falsifiability, because I don’t see falsifiability at play in your example at all. Unless I’m missing something obvious (which is always possible and perhaps even probable) nothing in your experiment falsified anything. Nor was it designed to. It was designed, as you say, to confirm something, not to falsify anything … what am I missing here?
Wel that’s the point of the example really. We hear much talk about the scientific method being designed to produce theories with falsifiable content, but out at the limits of knowledge, such as subatomic physics, a kind of confirmation bias can creep in. You think you know what you are looking for, so you design things to find it. Can you imagine the pro vice chancellors reaction when you tell him you need anothr ltimillion pound particle buster so you can confirm quarks which exhibit cheekiness don’t exist?
He’s going to say something like:
“Why can’t you be more like th philosophy department? All they ask me to pay for is paper, pencils, and waste baskets.
🙂
Am I the only one beginning to wonder whether Oxford’s Professor Jerome Ravetz and tallbloke’s “Jerry Ravetz” are two entirely different people? What Jerome has written and what tallbloke says “Jerry” means are not at all the same thing. Perhaps therein lies the reason for the dialogue of the deaf which Willis is perforce conducting with Mr. Tattersall.
Reply: They are two different people. Tallbloke is also a moderator here and does an excellent job of separating his opinions from his objective work as moderator. ~ ctm
liamascorcaigh (14:14:58) :
Am I the only one beginning to wonder whether Oxford’s Professor Jerome Ravetz and tallbloke’s “Jerry Ravetz” are two entirely different people? What Jerome has written and what tallbloke says “Jerry” means are not at all the same thing. Perhaps therein lies the reason for the dialogue of the deaf which Willis is perforce conducting with Mr. Tattersall.
There is something in what you say, though maybe not for the reasons you assume. I have had a lot of contact with Jerry Ravetz over the last weeks in private email. This has probably coloured my appraisals in ways not accesible via his essay. Also, I have a different take on Jerry’s PNS theory than Jerry does, and it has been a problem separating the two in trying to respond to the comments of others, when I am being called on to clarify what Jerry means by this or that detail.
Reply: They are two different people. Tallbloke is also a moderator here and does an excellent job of separating his opinions from his objective work as moderator. ~ ctm
Thanks Charles. My multiple personalities have now formed a consensus, so you must all listen to me. 🙂