I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony
Guest post by Jerome Ravetz
At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information. Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions. We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.
Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real. Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State. This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions. In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open. If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices. I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.
There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification. In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable. It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.). When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute. It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science. The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.
We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case. This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time. Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming. There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation. Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2 had always previously been at or below that starting level). Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.
In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one. It seems that several causes conspired. First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position. Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal. And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged. It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message. As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’. Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.
Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us. But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working. Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective. The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics. The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab. If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends. The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs. Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.
In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended. Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3. The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified. Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six. And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems. As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards! In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.
Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough. So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world. Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science. And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision. Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.
As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused. In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science. But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore. We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’. This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure. Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet. Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort. All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed. As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate. Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.
Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere. Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound. By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course. The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold. For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’. Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust. Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’. And then came the e-mails.
We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming. Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits: facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent. In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt. The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling. What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.
Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse. The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way. Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance. And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound? The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped. I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair. But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).
Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed. Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited. Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost. To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical. For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community. In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm. In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance. We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved. Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation. Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise. And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation. This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems. The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.
The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls. It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures. Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment. This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now. A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty. But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.
To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere. The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme. Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.
The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested. To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey. There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes. The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened. The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace. The Climategate affair shows the importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.
The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’. And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means. With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing. But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries. The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources. With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly. As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages. Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions. In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses. The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty. The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.
Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted. It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse. The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known. But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science. The blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains. Some parts are quite mainstream, others not. The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other. Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time. Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com). Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature. Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.
Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere. Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously. And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised. Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses. But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different. I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.
There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts. The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’. The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role. For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant. Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate? The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression. From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.
The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance. For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode. Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse? There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture. How can it be refuted?
And what about the issue itself? Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming? If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science. The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection. What sort of chaos would then result? The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.
To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand. In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication. Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised. A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science. Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance. The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas. The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process. Let dialogue commence!
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My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay. The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.
I agree with all those impressed by your analysis, and am, of course, particularly pleased with your use of my term “pal review”, which I posted on several blogs to see if it would gain currency.
He does make a fair case for how “climate science” was hopelessly polarised from the very beginning. It has always been inextricably linked to political policy, and has always as such been reduced to “fer or aginst” pathology.
I think there is a tricky language barrier between the writer and the readers of this post. Could that be? Perhaps what he attributes to ‘normal science’ is exactly what many here would attribute to post-normal science:
1. “‘[N]ormal science’…is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’.”
2. “Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.”
3. ‘Normal’ science produces results which can be replicated in the lab – however, in the author’s view, ‘normal’ science has replaced repeatable experiments with “computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs.”
4. “In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm.” He contrasts this with wider review by all on the internet, and asserts that this process is part of post-normal science.
The sunshine the internet sheds on Academic authority has nothing at all to do with post-normal science. It is simply freedom of speech. That leaves both ‘normal science’ and post-normal science with nothing to commend them. They can both be remorselessly scrapped without ever looking back.
There! We can now “understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust.”
A good fate for climate scientists would be to lump them into the same category as economists. Dr. Ravetz made that comparison, and I like it. We all know you can never, ever take either at face value. They always come with a policy agenda.
“It seems to be calling for a greater democracy where different people of various experience can weigh in and be heard outside of the normal channels of scientific investigation. (eg, is WUWT a science blog, a PNS blog, or both?)”
Greater democracy would certainly be a huge advance over the status quo, where pronouncments are handed down on tablets of stone from mount IPCC, from whence they are carried to every capital in the world to be turned into hardened policies to “decarbonise” the economies. That modus operandi has clearly failed, and the damage is continuing.
In practice however, because of the polarising nature of climate science, the issues will always be bitterly divisive with no side willing to give ground. Yet, it would serve to disenfranchise current pillars of authority – the IPCC would be dethroned, as would those who claim to speak with special authority. This would of necessity, add further confusion, but this is not a bad thing. The greatest damage has been caused by policy makers acting with the absolute certainty (and arrogance) that “the science is settled.”
With democratization, there can (at present) be no certainty, and any policies that lay claim to “the Science” wil be exposed to the full sceptical glare of public scrutiny. Perhaps that’s all Revatz is saying.
‘Perculiar’ spelling of peculiar in my post above…
” tallbloke (13:04:13) :
Hooray! Someone else gets it!”
…so ‘post’ normal science is exactly that, then? In other words, post coitus doesn’t mean to replace coitus?
This essay is an example of the “never let a crisis go to waste” maxim. Professor Ravetz is hawking his post-Marxist wares on the ruins of the Leftist AGW agitprop that has passed for climate science. “Post-Normal Science” is socio-political babble for the nullification of the authority of institutional science by networks of organized “activists” with carefully constructed agendas.
He sees that the highjacking of mainstream climate scientists by the Post-Marxist Left failed because – fundamentally as a result of the democratic nature and global reach of the internet – non-mainstreamers were in a position to critique the skewed “science” and lay bare the inadequacies – to put it mildly – of its methodologies. The CRU leak merely dramatically confirmed what had already been revealed on the central “non-peer-reviewed” blogs. The result – the dreams of Global Governance (the Fourth International writ green) vanished like an infant’s breath into the icy Copenhagen air.
Ravetz now seeks to deconstruct the authority of mainstream science (what he unaccountably calls Normal Science which is what everyone else calls normal science without the scary, isolating capitals). He wishes, as it were, to defrock its priesthood, dispossess it of the awe and prestige with which Newton and Einstein inter multos alios have infused it in the eyes of the unscientific masses. That done, the power and authority of the old order is not, you will note, destroyed but rather dispersed more widely, thus becoming less accountable and less of a target for the likes of McIntyre, McKittrick and Watts and even more amenable to exploitation by ideologically regimented cadres.
It is worthy of comment that while the professor takes a swipe at the “right-wing” views of some AGW skeptics he seems monumentally unaware of the all-encompassing ideological agenda of the non-scientific proponents of Carbon Catastrophism who were the “boots on the ground” using Mann’s Hockey Stick, the CRU data and IPCC reports as WMD in the battle for hearts and minds.
It is no coincidence that AGW became so suddenly and vitally “urgent” *after* the fall of the Soviet Union when Leftists in the West were left, so to speak, stripped bare of their ideological viability. Like the hermit crab they found that the shell of the old Environmentalist Movement provided a cosy niche, after they completed – a la Greenpeace – the messy business of expelling those of the original residents who refused to be co-opted. Professor Ravetz’s post is just the newest installment in their indefatigable strategizing.
Let the indoctrination commence!
As far as I understand it PNS is closely related to the precautionary principle.
Without mincing words the precautionary principle can be roughly translated as: I haven’t a clue what’s going on, neither do you or anybody else. Therefore, you must do as I tell you. Since obviously, when put like this, nobody is going to fall for my ploy, I then need to put things a bit more diplomatic. Science of the ordinary kind that depends on hard working clever people isn’t reliable. It may come to the conclusion that I’m wrong and you are right. Can’t have that.
Enter science of the post-normal kind. It does away with all the dreadful drudgery and hard uncertain work of the regular kind and replaces it with things like expert panels, stakeholder assessments, extended peer communities (which most certainly is not going to include you (I’ll find a reason). And if I’m forced to include you I’ll get all democratic on you and make certain I’ve got more votes. Then I’ll call the science settled and all my political and journalistical friends will say so too and the matter will be concluded presently. Oh, and you of course get to do as I tell you.
This is naturally a reason to bemoan the mixing of both kinds as the prof above does. He uses much more flowery language but I think that’s the gist of it.
tallbloke, Professor Ravetz: I have to apologize. Seems like i missed the peer-review aspect Mr. Ravetz emphasises.
I had a bad taste after reading this piece by Mike Hulme:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/mar/14/scienceofclimatechange.climatechange
Now it seems to me like he hijacked the concept of post-normal science and perverted it in the process. Sorry, misunderstanding on my side.
“DirkH (14:34:06) : Your comment is awaiting moderation
tallbloke, Professor Ravetz: I have to apologize. Seems like i missed the peer-review aspect Mr. Ravetz emphasises.”
Correct peer-review to public review. Basically, we’re all peers, but the word peer-review is reserved already for the established procedures of journals.
tallbloke, I hope you are right and Ravetz responds to the critiques and interpretations himself.
In any case, thanks for your efforts in creating and pursuing this debate.
It does seem that Ravetz is in the process of changing sides and that his article was expressed in a way he hoped would speak to both sides. The challenges to him have been fairly, convincingly and eloquently put. Time now for his response.
If Mr. Ravetz thinks post-normal science is the answer he has not read the CRU FOIA zipfile hot-proposal.doc. Post-normal science is partly what got the IPCC into such a mess. The other part is that they flat out lied by claiming the science was settled.
If the science is settled you don’t need a PNS concensus. If you need a PNS consensus the science isn’t settled and you’re into the realms of politics and opinion. Do one or the other, not both.
Please don’t close the Met Office just yet, they are a source of considerable humour still – and we need that right now – and who knows they may yet produce a corker equivalent to poor Mr Fish and his ‘no hurricane in the West Country’. They’ve been serving up imaginaary weather for many years now!
For real forecasts: http://www.weatheraction.com
We did “get it”, and that is precisely why many of us object about as strongly as anyone could possibly object. Can you see any of the objections we have with the following statement?
@ur momisugly Willis Eschenbach
“Bollocks. The problem with climate science is that the tenets of “normal” science, which are heavily concerned with uncertainty, are being ignored. Issues of uncertainty are to the forefront in normal science.”
Oh so well put.
James Delingpole (08:31:04) :
“Climategate happened because of Post Normal Science. Not despite it.”
Spot on James.
I can only say again that the mess which is the now 20 year old global climate field is the epitome of post-normal science, a mess created and shaped by its adherents. Whenever an evaluation is done of the merits of that philosophy, these scandals are the evidence as to its results in practice.
It would take a lot of refining, with the climate CRU-type abomination taken fully into consideration, before it should raise its head again.
Brilliant! The hermit-crab metaphor is perfect! Thanks for putting the climate alarmism movement back polluted ideological shore where it belongs.
/Mr Lynn
That’s “back on the polluted ideological shore.” /Mr L
tallbloke (13:04:13)
Well, I sure don’t get it. When Ravetz says that “… the puzzle-solving approach of ‘normal science’ is obsolete,” how on earth are you twisting that to a claim that PNS is “a process which happens (or should happen) after a ‘normal’ scientific enquiry into a problem has already taken place.”???? If normal science is “obsolete”, that means it should not be used. Where in that is any clue that PNS happens after normal science has had its say?
DirkH (14:34:06) :
tallbloke, Professor Ravetz: I have to apologize. Seems like i missed the peer-review aspect Mr. Ravetz emphasises.
I had a bad taste after reading this piece by Mike Hulme:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/mar/14/scienceofclimatechange.climatechange
Now it seems to me like he hijacked the concept of post-normal science and perverted it in the process. Sorry, misunderstanding on my side.
Dirk, thank you, I appreciate that, and agree with your assessment. I think the key point is that the concept of PNS is more an observation than an ideology. If one side picks up the ball and runs with it, that doesn’t make it their exclusive property.
It seems to me that Jerry is acknowledging the legitimacy of the more balanced and better informed part of the sceptical blogosphere. This has to be a good thing, though e don’t need anyone’s approval to be effective in ways he woud characterise as ‘post normal’. I hope Willis can see that the way his work has had a much bigger outreach via this site is itself a ‘post normal science’ situation. Who needs peer reviewed journals taking a big chunk of money off you to hide your work behnd a paywall when many thousands read this blog monthly?
I guess that answers Stu’s question too.
Willis Eschenbach (15:39:02) :
Well, I sure don’t get it. When Ravetz says that “… the puzzle-solving approach of ‘normal science’ is obsolete,” how on earth are you twisting that to a claim that PNS is “a process which happens (or should happen) after a ‘normal’ scientific enquiry into a problem has already taken place.”????
Maybe you missed the answer I gave to this earlier?
tallbloke (05:17:17) :
Willis Eschenbach (02:58:56) :
To me, saying that the “approach of ‘normal science’ is obsolete” is arguing strongly “against science being done properly in the first place”. What am I missing here?
The context of the argument I think. As I read him, it is the approach of ‘normal science’ as applied to policy formation which is obsolete and must giove way to more democratic forms with wider terms of reference.
So, rather than some boffin telling us that ‘this is how it is’ and the government getting away with handing down the policy from on high without further debate, Ravetz is saying, “hang on, we need views from other people here, including those of investigative journalists and people bearing leaked documents. (He wrote that before the CRU leak by the way). This militates for us not against.
The problem is not that the outputs of science are abused. It is that the scientific process is not being followed, so that there are no valid “outputs of science” to be abused.
As I said in my earlier reply, I doubt you’d get any argument from Jerry on that score. Integrity is a pre-requisite for useful knowledge production. He acknowledged that he’d missed emphasising that when I confronted him with Scientist For Truth’s piece some weeks ago.
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Basically PNS isn’t an excuse for bad science. You put your analysis of climate models on this blog for open peer review last year. That’s post normal science in action.
We don’t have to use PNS in the way it’s been (ab)used by the Hockey team. We can make something better of it. If the current gatekeepers of science shun us for it, that’ll be their loss in the long run. Truth will win. We will win. That’s what I believe.
Maybe as an example, we could look at the previous NOAA webpage graphic of arctic sea ice extent (WUWT: NOAA’s new website climate.gov – a first day sin of omission) with its dates only going up to 2007, but not 2008 or 2009, as an illustration of a PNS interpretation of a ‘normal’ scientific measurement?
The new image displaying only 2009 (still under the average) leaves out the rest of the data. Why did NOAA do that? The graphic still isn’t ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’, as it leaves out the fact that the ice has undergone a slight recovery since 2007. They could show the whole series and still claim that the ice is in general retreat, but that would look more complicated than the current image. Is that PNS?
So… perhaps the difference is that normal science would show the whole data, but the PNS process seems to be in part about repackaging the ‘truth’ down into smaller, less ambiguous parts tailored towards particular political points of view, levels of understanding, etc. ?
I’m wondering whether PNS has developed in part due to the publics greater sophistication in spotting advocacy science, therefore necessitating a new term in order to differentiate between actual science and these kinds of interpretations, or whether it has developed because the public are clueless and it is imagined that we all need to be told what to think? Or to put it another way- will PNS allow us greater tools to be able to deal with and talk about scientific ambiguities in more responsible, inclusive and informed and effective ways, or will it simply all be geared towards the cynical marketting of ideas and the flattening of real knowledge in the service of various ambitions?
Stay tuned!
“Pat Frank (10:24:08)” responding to “John Whitman (01:18:31)” wrote;
”””” . . . Likewise, science is not concerned with any metaphysical reality. It does not postulate an external universe and is not concerned with essences or with the nature of things . . . ”””””’
Pat, first I would like to say that I think we have started an excellent discussion. Unfortunately it occurs late in this post, so therefore likely to break off soon as we move on to newer posts. Let’s look for each other early in future WUWT posts where our discussion of science & philosophy can continue to be relevant to the post subject. I am in Taiwan on business for next several months, so we may be on very different times . . . patience needed to continue this good discussion.
Regarding your above comment, please correct me if I am wrong, I think that you are maintaining that there is a kind of ultimate reality that man cannot know and therefore man & his science cannot address it. And likewise, I think you are maintaining that what science does study is some kind of lower reality, a practical reality that is useful but not the “real” reality. These are philosophical issues.
I think that approach is consistent with Plato’s philosophy which led to Kantian philosophy and Hegelian philosophy . . . . ultimately to all post modern philosophy.
I maintain the “one reality” tradition in philosophy is valid and that man with his science has the natural capacity and natural ability to know that one reality.
John
The apologists for Ravetz should really study where his post-normal science ends up. Mike Hulme embraced it and ended up promoting a quasi-religious and political view of climate science. Why do you think Ravetz’s views are so attractive to Islamists? Because traditional normal science is viewed as ‘Western’ and disconnected from politics and religion. Ravetz’s post-normal science is a game changer – it can turn science into the service of any kind of worldview, especially Islam. This comment is not a criticism of Islam or any other religion – but I do want readers to know what is going on.
I mentioned Ziauddin Sardar in an earlier comment. He is the author of the book ‘Why do people hate America?’. In another of his books ‘The Touch of Midas: science, values, and environment in Islam and the West’, Sardar describes Ravetz as a “Western science historian and mystic”. I repeat what Mohd Hazim Shah wrote about Sardar and Ravetz in his essay ‘Contemporary Muslim Intellectuals and Their Responses to Modern Science and Technology’ (in ‘Studies in Contemporary Islam’ Volume 3 Number 2 Fall 2001):
“Sardar, like a conservative Muslim, insists that development, including the development of modern science and technology, should come under the purview of the Islamic faith. Sardar’s so-called Islamic critique of science is really a Western critique of science dressed in Islamic lingo. In fact, his numerous references to Western critics of science, such as Roszak, Jerome Ravetz, Marcuse, and others—the gurus of the counterculture movement of the 1970s—betray the Western origins of his critique of science…His close association, and in some cases collaboration, with Jerome Ravetz is of some interest in this regard, especially when we note Ravetz’s status as a major critic of science in Britain in the 1970s”
What sort of collaboration? Well, Sardar worked closely with Ravetz the Mystic, and they even were joint-editors. As Ravetz himself says
“With Zia Sardar I have engaged in studies of the future…Now that science is so obviously influenced, and in some cases deformed, by the agendas of power and profit, even the concepts of Post-Normal Science need to be enriched if they are to continue to offer useful critical insights.”
What sort of future and enrichment did he have in mind? Yasmeen Mahnaz Faruqi in the article ‘Islamic view of nature and values: Could these be the answer to building bridges between modern science and Islamic science’ (International Education Journal, 2007, 8(2), 461-469) cites Ravetz:
Contemporary Muslim and non-Muslim scholars have recognized that scientific knowledge is not necessarily neutral and objective, but instead carries values and concepts that are explicit to modern Western culture (Rehman, 2003). Therefore this has resulted in a concerted effort by contemporary Islamic scholars to call for an ‘Islamic science’ or the ‘Islamization of knowledge’ (…Ravetz, 1991).
And just what was that paper by sole author Jerry Ravetz? Not one you’ll find on his website, for obvious reasons (would give the game away).
Ravetz, J.R., Prospects for an Islamic science, Futures, April 1991, pp. 262-272
in the journal collaboration ‘Futures’ with Sardar. Don’t forget that 1991 was the year that Ravetz launched his Post-Normal Science.
And just what are the prospects for an ISLAMIC science in his Post-Normal Science, post-scientific age? Let Ravetz speak for himself (emphasis mine):
“A possible relationship may be derived from the complex metaphysical relationship between monotheism and the development of science. This article tracks these developments through the rise of secularization, the decline of scientism, and monotheism and polytheism in the coming ‘post-scientific age’. In its moral outlook and emphasis on commitment and surrender, the POSSIBILITY AND NECESSITY of an Islamic science are to be found.”
Right. So in the same year, 1991, he switches on Islamists to his ideas and concurrently switches on Western science to his ideas. To slightly parody Faruqi “Could post-normal science be the answer to building bridges between modern science and Islamic science?”
Remember his collaborator Sardar, who “like a conservative Muslim, insists that…the development of modern science and technology should come under the purview of the Islamic faith”.
Can’t you see? Ravetz is part of the movement destroying Western enlightenment science. In his earlier days he thought that could be achieved through Marxism. That all changed in the late 1980s with the fall of communism. Now it’s Islam’s turn, but they can’t make it so obvious can they. By introducing PNS into the IPCC (classically post-normal according to Hulme) they make a (now prominent) branch of science stink in the eyes of the world when they see the corruption. Ravetz and Hulme enter at this stage to increase the evidence of the corruption. The corrosion of science to Western values will become more and more apparent, ushering in science according to a different worldview (Ravetz orininally thought this would be Marxism, but Islam is today’s better choice). As I pointed out in the introduction to my blog post
http://buythetruth.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/climate-change-and-the-death-of-science/
“Ravetz and Hulme jointly authored an article, published by the BBC on December 1, entitled ‘Show Your Working’: What ‘ClimateGate’ means in which they sought to promote post-normal science further by capitalizing on the public disgust at the corruption of ‘normal’ science. This is cynical because normal science was corrupted by covertly introducing post-normal activities in the first place.”
Meanwhile, Ziauddin Sardar, Ravetz’s collaborator and author of ‘Why do People Hate America’ is a prolific writer in the western self-loathing and US-hating press in the UK. As the blurb on his book states:
“Ziauddin Sardar is a prolific writer and an insightful cultural commentator…In the UK, he is known as a leading intellectual and his regular contributions to the Observer, the Independent and the New Statesman have brought his writings to a wide audience. As one of our most high-profile Muslim intellectuals, he has also become an increasingly important voice in the media since the events of September 11th 2001.”
I read physics at Oxford in the 1970s (incidentally my sister was at Leeds University, where Ravetz then was, and she came out a Marxist Leninist). I can tell you, Oxford is a huge target currently for Islamization – if Oxford is ‘captured’ then ‘Western’ science will follow.
OK guys. If you want to follow the mystical pied piper there, I can’t stop you. But I will warn you again – you are being suckered.
Alan Wilkinson (14:44:04) :
tallbloke, I hope you are right and Ravetz responds to the critiques and interpretations himself.
In any case, thanks for your efforts in creating and pursuing this debate.
It does seem that Ravetz is in the process of changing sides and that his article was expressed in a way he hoped would speak to both sides. The challenges to him have been fairly, convincingly and eloquently put. Time now for his response.
Thanks Alan, I’ve passed on your request, and I know Jerry does intend to respond with a followup in due course. He is not one to shrink from valid criticism.
Chuckles (09:31:07) :
@James Baldwin Delingpole (8:31:04)
“Guys, I think some of you may need to get your weaselry detectors fixed. Climategate happened because of Post Normal Science. Not despite it.”
Thank you James, somebody gets it.
People, this is NOT some newly thought up weasel justification for Climategate. The whole IPCC process and all the science associated with it, is post-normal science.
If I thought Ravetz were saying that this is a positive description of climate science, but is not normative, then I might join you in your acceptance of his essay. But I think you miss his, and the, point. Let’s accept that IPCC and all the science associated with it, is PNS. He’s arguing that PNS is the way it should be (“normative”), not simply that it is just the way it is (“positive”). In other words, he’s making a value statement about PNS (it is good), and is championing it.
So let me ask you: are you championing the “The whole IPCC process and all the science associated with it?” Because if not, then you’ve let the fox into your hen house by approving of what Ravetz is saying. It seems to me that his only fear is that the PNS case for AGW be on the verge of collapsing, and he’s not happy about. Well, if the “whole IPCC process and all the science associated with it” is a house of cards starting to collapse, then I’m ticked pink. But not Ravetz.
“marchesarosa (07:52:07)” wrote:
””” Ravetz . [his]. . first book was an early attempt to shift the philosophy of science from epistemology to the social and ethical aspects of science. . .[but] . . . Epistemology is the study of “theories of knowledge”. Effectively it means “how do we know what we think we know? . . . Ravetz’s agenda is to redefine not just the scientific method but knowledge itself. . . . ”””’
marchesarosa, your comment is interesting. Do you think it is his (Ravetz) intent to show that scientific knowledge is less objective (i.e. not focused on reality) and therefore more subjective (based on arbitrary current/fashionable social mores)?
I haven’t read his book, so if I say anything it would just be an assumption about him.
John