More from the “weather is not climate department”.
Flurries hit southeast Australia as towns record their first-ever summer snowfalls
CANBERRA, Australia – Australia is following its second-hottest year on record with extraordinary snow flurries in its southeastern alpine region, where some towns have recorded their first-ever summer snowfalls.
Australia’s temperatures during the summer months of December through February can be uncomfortably hot even on its highest peak, Mount Kosciuszko, which stands a modest 7,310 feet (2,228 metres) above sea level.
Snow fell to 3,000 feet (900 metres) above sea level Monday in parts of New South Wales and Victoria states, Bureau of Meteorology senior forecaster Jane Golding said.
“Any time of year, it’s unusual to have snow down that far,” she said.
…
The town of Bombala in New South Wales, east of Kosciuszko, recorded its first summer snow since the bureau began keeping records there in 1965, Golding said.
The town of Cooma, also in New South Wales but north of Kosciuszko, recorded its first summer snow since records were first kept in 1973.
Cooma resident Krystal Pernitsch said the wind chill factor made Monday’s high temperature of 59 degrees (15 degrees Celsius) feel like 48 degrees (9 Celsius).
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Glacier Melt Rate to Be Re-Examined By Award-Winning UN Panel
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a92m7lbAaQQc
I climbed Mount Kosciuszko back in February 1974, the day after snow fell on the peak. The snow may have gotten down to 6500 feet or so. At that time, buses would take tourists to the top of the peak, but on that day there were no buses running. So I had the trail all to myself, except for a brief time I spent at the top and a couple from Singapore arrived. they said they were the first people from Singapore ever to be on top Mount Kosciuszko (doubtful).
In any case, it does snow in summer on Mount Kosciuszko.
Steve K:
I am not the almighty and I cannot change the chemical and physical properties of carbon di-oxide as you imply.
I clarify that the level of increase of co2 is insignificant and not adequate in quantity to allow those large temperature increases as are claimed.
You need to find another horse to ride, in the “warming” race. co2 is about the size of an amoeba.
The Gray Monk (08:55:54) :
The South Western Cape in South Africa, boasts a number of glacier plains and valleys in the Hex River region and further northwards. I believe the last Ice Age in that area was 65o million to 450 million years ago. Driving down from Kimberley one can see a number of the distinctive U shaped valleys cut through the mountain chains.
_____
Reply:
There are very few current landforms on earth that were here 450-650 mybp. Erosion is sufficient to have removed such features long ago. To offer some perspective, the Rocky Mountains in the US are from 100-200 million years old (the imprecision in the number indicates the process of uplift continued for ~ 100 million years, as some ranges came up first followed by others). If we look at the age of the ROCKS in the Rocky Mountains, they range from 200-600 million years old.
The Appalachian Mountains rose about 450 million years ago and they’ve pretty much been worn down to their roots. Both of these orogenies are younger than your timeframe, so I’m pretty sure the landforms caused by glacial agents that can still be easily discerned in South Africa are most likely from glacial epochs that happened within the last several million years.
I hope this adds some perspective to the fascinating science of geology and your observations in particular.
Hah, snow on Mt Koz? It was there during January of the early 1960’s when the family had their annual Christmas holidays at Thredbo, though I don’t recall it snowing then, but then again……
In any case if the BOM computer models are indicating hotness but we are getting colder and snow falls, then the computer model is based on the wrong assumptions, aka “the theory is wrong”!
Douglas Hoyt,
Thanks for the confirmation that it does snow on Mt Koz during summer. And real winter weather during the height of summer can be experienced at the Savage River iron ore mine in Tasmania.
SMS (13:40:03) :
How cold are we going to get in the next 30 years?
Your best bet to get that question answered is to pay attention to the work of Piers Corbyn. After that, it’s a matter of how long the natural internal cycles continue lining up where they will as opposed to any external cycles (solar/galactic) and when they will reverse.
The uncertainties of the solar cycles and thier effects are bad enough, but things are further muddied due to the dismantling of the rural stations and the destruction/defacing of the historical data set.
Finally, the historical record is not exactly clear on how cold, but is very distinct in reporting unseasonable weather as the bane crop yields. Deep Cold spells are but one facet of what cooling portends.
A much better question is how widespread will the pressure on crops become, as well as disruptions on commerce in general.
Magnus A (07:59:02) :
This is classic stuff! Just look at the fantatstic (and I use the word its literal sense) reasoning:
So, lets work through that. Millions of years ago, there was an ice age, and there was loads, I mean loads, of CO2. That means one of two things, take your pick, people:
1. CO2 is the main driver of climate, and can cause ice ages
or
2. CO2 has nothing to do with the temperature, otherwise that ice age would not have been.
To top it all:
which is, in my book, random words strung together.
Info on glacial features in Victoria, Australia can be found at http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/Vro/egregn.nsf/pages/eg_lf_sites_significance_8223_1 & http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/portregn.nsf/pages/port_lf_sig_sites_gd4 & http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/portregn.nsf/pages/port_lf_sig_sites_l2 This final one is an excellent thesis on glacial features of the Murray Darling Basin http://dtl.unimelb.edu.au/R/JMG6PUMCMMI9IQXUKL3JHQPGQ9G8BYSE7468LRTNER35S5X8H7-00927?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=66092&local_base=GEN01&pds_handle=GUEST
SteveK (14:45:55) said:
Now, please tell us what percentage of the atmosphere CO2 makes up and what percentage of the atmosphere H2O makes up, both of which are greenhouse gasses.
You should not assume that your sleight-of-hand would not be noticed.
Perhaps then we can move on to the next question.
For any Australians (particularly western australians) following this thread who are thinking of applying to Kevin Rudd for a rebate on their carbon taxes have a look at this new thread that I’ve just put up on ‘digginintheclay’.
Mapping global warming
The main conclusion reached in the thread is that global warming is hardly global and that based on the evidence shown in the colour coded trend maps presented in the thread, ‘global warming’ is not global but is in fact largely NH winter warming.
I’ve concluded stated that given what the maps show, it’s hard to see how CO2 could be the cause of this warming unless the demon CO2 is happy to allow notable exceptions while being choosey in selectively warming parts of the planet while allowing other parts to cool at the same time.
I’ve suggested that Western Australians apply for a rebate on their carbon taxes and have also recommended where ‘pommies’ like myself should all go if we want a good tan this summer.
Regards
KevinUK
You can watch the system form that brought the “unprecedented”
lower altitude summertime snow to Australia here:
http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/data/comp/cmoll/cmoll.html
rbateman (14:39:52)
Your comment only begs for more answers though.
Where is all this going to lead us if our temperature record is so polluted with UHI and adjustments that we cannot understand the depth and significance of whatever changes in world temperatures do occur?
As you indicate, crop yields suffer as world temperatures decrease. There is likely a mathmatical correlation between world temperature and crop yields.
How are we to prepare for the coming decrease in world temperature if we don’t have correct temperatures to correlate too?
The bad science now being practiced by AGW alarmists is going to culminate in the suffering of countless individuals. Crop failures, insufficient gas and coal reserves, no nuclear etc.
layman’s though and questions:
If Co2 forms a heat trapping net over the earth. The net has very large holes. A layman’s thought: It is heardly catch any fish (heat) by this net.
Co2 is a Green house gas. It causes a positive feed back.
water vapor is more potent green house gas. Why does not water vapor generate more positive feed back?
If water vapor does generate more positive feed back, but no one mention it.
why?
If water vapor does generate more positive feed back, then warrying Co2 is meaningless. Co2 only a very small part of the question.
Can anyone answer this question?
Driving up and over Wild Dog Tier (Tas 1200m) Sunday afternoon (17/1/10) we were surprised to strike 5 cm of snow on the road. But yes, this is not unusual in the (mostly sub-alpine) alps of south-eastern Australia. To my knowledge it happens every year, in fact, as a frequent visitor, most years I have seen it/felt it…love it! It can often happen while bushfires are raging further north and often follow heatwaves – as per this one. Temperatures are rarely below freezing for very long.
Such snow events in and around the Alpine regions in late Dec and Jan must surely be said to be ‘common’ – but most folks dont know about them because few folks live there. Snow in settled areas is a little more unusual and certainly news worthy. But note the length of the record-keeping quoted, which is less than living memory – only 40 or 50 years. Old timers have there stories before then if you only ask them.
If you are looking for evidence of a cooling earth over the last 10-15 years S-E Aust is not the place to look, and these snowfalls are certainly not it.
Re the ‘how cold’ meme and rbateman’s reply: yes, look at crops and agriculture in general for the truest clues. Plants react to growing-degree-days, nutrients and the general environment, and have perfected their responses over millions of generations.
So, they’re likely to be more reliable than, say, GISS.
And from what I hear, yields are down almost everywhere……
“Nothing to see here!…move along!”
This is normal for SE Australia – the weather patterns are naturally quite extreme this time of year, so it’s not real news for either “believers” or “agnostics”. You’ll often find extreme heat (caused by a blocking high in the Tasman sea causing follow up highs to sit over the continent funneling desert wind into the temperate climes), followed by cold fronts coming up from the Southern Ocean bringing cold Antarctic air and moisture. Ive lived in the region all my life, and I don’t see anything unusual about this whatsoever.
Hell, only last week New Zealand’s main arterial route, State Highway 1, was closed to traffic for a day due to ice and snow. That’s mid summer here!
{ SteveK (14:45:55) :….
greenhouse gases, which comprise less than 1 percent of the atmosphere, are responsible for the Earth being 21 degrees Celsius higher (the difference between a frozen planet and one where life exists) than it would otherwise be. Small amount — yes. Insignificant — no. }
Steve,
Do you think I can get that 21 degree Celsius rise to work in my bedroom with the sunlight coming in the window, if I pump more co2 in here ? I’ll go up to 10% co2. Shouldn’t that be enough greenhouse gas to cook a turkey ? I suspect I would see a larger temperature increase by lighting a match, which I occasionally do for other foul greenhouse gasses that visit my air.
The real life laboratory is Mother Earth. Only time will tell tell us the truth and I think Earth can handle any amount of co2 that we humans throw at Her.
All the carbon sequestered in fossil fuels used to circulate on the surface of the planet and in the atmosphere. Not a problem then, not a problem now.
Chill… yeah, that’s the new term…. just… chill.
Wayne Findley (15:37:27) said:
Hmmm, the USDA is expecting record corn and soy yields in the US … although some are skeptical.
BernieL (15:36:26) :
If you are looking for evidence of a cooling earth over the last 10-15 years S-E Aust is not the place to look, and these snowfalls are certainly not it.
I don’t think we should be looking for evidence of cooling but evidence of the lack of warming that your statement provides.
I don’t know about you people, but you seem a little excited about all of this cooling.
I personally am fed up with this climate change and really really REALLY want to get back to global warming and take the shovel out the back of my van.
SMS (15:27:07) :
Crop yields decrease through unseasonable weather events. Like the Florida Citrus crop freezing, hail knocking the flowers off of fruit trees, late summer rains rotting wheat, etc.
Unseasonable weather events due to erratic climate patterns due to cooling.
Last on the list is failure of crops due to too short of a growing season.
In this age of modern technology and energy, there is no reason to suffer these things. Greenhouses and hydroponics on scale will see it through.
Rotating crops to more southerly climes in a timely manner is another answer.
The fly in the ointment is the agenda to turn us back to medieval times and the wanton destruction of the means to accurately assess regional temperatures.
Yes it’s unusual but I can remember two similar events in my life time.
(1) Snowfall in the Blue Mountains (NSW) on 19th November 1986. I’m from that part of the world and remember it well (I was 7 at the time and my grandmother was visiting from Queensland and had never experienced snow before in her life so it was something special for her, especially at such an unusual time of year);
(2) Summer snowfall in Tasmania one year when international cricket was being played in Hobart amid foul weather and it was reportedly snowing on top of Mt Wellington (although not at sea level where the match was being played).
But yes it’s very unusual anywhere in Australia to get summer snow.
Wayne Findley (15:37:27) :
Down 20% on the Canadian Wheat harvest if my memory is correct.
We should be concerned about how these things progress.
The only worry with C02 is can we get enough of it diverted to large scale greenhousing.