Climategate: Statement from Norfolk Police

Jan 8, 2010

This morning I contacted Norfolk Constabulary with a view to finding out if they had yet ascertained whether the breach at the Climatic Research Unit was a leak or a hack. I have just received a response which is frankly amazing:

Norfolk Constabulary continues its investigations into criminal offences in relation to a data breach at the University of East Anglia.  During the enquiry officers have been working in liaison with the Office of the Information Commissioner and with officers from the National Domestic Extremism Team. The UEA continues to co-operate with the enquiry however major investigations of this nature are of necessity very detailed and as a consequence can take time to reach a conclusion. It would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage.

The National Domestic Extremism Team? Words fail me.

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270 thoughts on “Climategate: Statement from Norfolk Police

  1. Well. There you have it. Deniers are obviously dangerous extremists!
    Denying AGW must be up there with denying the holocaust or threatening religious leaders.
    We DID all think AGW was a religion. Now it’s certain!

  2. I note with considerable interest that the National Coordinator for Domestic Extremism” is officially NOT combating “terrorism” or “crime” or criminal behavior” or ” criminal investigation,” nor is it even intersted in Justice” or “Service” …
    But this “Extremism” thing? That has got to be fought with all the terror of a government agency!

  3. Now you know why the whistleblower will never come forward voluntarily. Britain is not free any longer. Read George Orwell’s book 1984 for more details of where Britain is headed.

  4. It means that all the secret services of the developed nations must be tracking WUWT closely because it’s the center of the sceptics conspiracy. My, they might all become sceptics reading the discussions here…
    Boys, you’re welcome!

  5. From a Guadian article
    “The third leg of the trio, the National Domestic Extremism Team, was set up in 2005 and consists of detectives who help police forces around the UK.
    Initially, the team focused on animal rights activists, but has fanned out to look at any crimes “linked to single issue-type causes and campaigns”, Setchell said.
    The team draws on intelligence from the NPOIU database and, the Guardian has learned, is located on the seventh floor of 10 Victoria Street in central London, a building previously occupied by the Department of Trade and Industry.”

  6. What is an Information Commissar–I mean Commissioner? Is that sort of like the Minister of Propaganda? How interesting that the UK even has one.

  7. This quote from the National Domestic Extremism website leaves me wondering if they will be investigating acts committed towards or acts committed by Hadley CRU:
    From their website: What is domestic extremism?
    ….
    The terms are generally used to describe the activity, individuals or campaign groups that carry out criminal acts of direct action in furtherance of a campaign. These people and activities usually seek to prevent something from happening or to change legislation or domestic policy, but attempt to do so outside of the normal democratic process.

  8. Sadly, the Nazi element survived WWII unscathed and have been making inroads ever since.
    Once the state takes pre-eminence over the individual, corporations become the “most valuable” citizenry and their interests and concerns supercede the consideration for individual liberty and integrity.
    Were our societies to promote individual rights and freedoms, that would preclude forcing our “objectives” on foreign countries and greatly lessen if not remove the need for terror either external or domestic.
    Somewhere, some spin-ster is finding ways to convince you that your sacrifice is needed to ensure the survival of your way of life (that will be lived by someone else, of course).
    Climategate is an indication of how our baser instincts have been co-opted to side with the interests of those in power and control. Science has rarely seen darker days since the inquisition.

  9. MI5 have a team dedicated to infiltrating and eliminating animal rights activists, anti-nuclear nutters and the like.
    Why not add AGW denialists to the list.
    Sounds crazy but with this governments attitude any of us on this site could get a knock on the door from Special Branch.

  10. When contacted, the official spokesperson, Bart Simpson explained, “I didn’t do it, no one saw me do it and you can’t prove anything”. However, crime scene tape has gone up at the local Kwikie-mart as investigators check the temperature of squishies. Film at 11.

  11. A whistleblower in the UK is considered a “domestic extremist” apparently. George Orwell would understand.

  12. http://www.netcu.org.uk/about/about.jsp

    What is NETCU?
    NETCU stands for the National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit. It is a national policing unit set up by ACPO to respond to the threat of domestic extremism in England and Wales.
    NETCU is a small unit made up of a number of police officers and support staff. Our work is overseen by a National Coordinator for Domestic Extremism who reports to ACPO’s Terrorism and Allied Matters Committee.
    What do you do?
    NETCU is not an operational unit, meaning that we do not actively investigate criminal activity. Our role is to support others to prevent, reduce and disrupt criminal activity associated with domestic extremism and single issue campaigning.
    To do this, we work with police forces across the country to provide tactical advice and guidance in order to promote a coordinated and consistent approach to tackling domestic extremism.
    We support industry, academia and other organisations that have been targeted or could be targeted by extremists, providing security advice, risk assessments and information that can help minimise disruption and keep their employees safe.
    We also provide the Government and our partners in the police service, Crown Prosecution Service and industry with information about trends and types of domestic extremist incidents and crimes.
    NETCU and lawful protest
    The policing of domestic extremism focuses on criminal activity or potential crime and disorder sometimes associated with single-issue campaigns.
    NETCU fully supports people’s right to demonstrate lawfully and we recognise that most protest campaigns are conducted peacefully and legally.
    However, we also recognise that within some campaigns there are a small minority of individuals with extreme views and who are prepared to break the law in order to further their cause. These individuals sometimes try to hide their illegal activities by associating themselves with otherwise lawful campaign groups. Our work focuses on that criminal minority and not the majority of peaceful and lawful campaigners.
    Our objectives
    * Support the police service in the delivery of a professional, effective and proportionate response to domestic extremism.
    * To prevent, reduce and wherever possible, remove the threat, criminality and public disorder that arises from domestic extremism in England and Wales.
    * Support industry and other organisations in building their resilience when targeted by domestic extremism campaigns.
    * Support our partners in the wider police service, criminal justice system and HM Government departments.
    * Communicate the work of the police service in respect of domestic extremism to our stakeholders and the general public

    http://www.leics.police.uk/advice/2_information_zone/67_national_extremism_tactical_coordination_unit/

    National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit
    National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit (NETCU)
    National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit (NETCU)
    The National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit (NETCU) forms part of the national policing response to domestic extremism, together with the National Coordinator for Domestic Extremism (NCDE), the National Domestic Extremism Team of investigators and the National Public Order Intelligence Unit (NPOIU).
    Their focus is to promote a coordinated, consistent and effective approach to dealing with domestic extremism.
    NETCU provides the police service of England and Wales and other enforcement agencies with tactical advice and guidance on policing domestic extremism and associated criminality.
    They support the business and academic sectors, providing a centralised source of information, advice, guidance and liaison on strategies to withstand domestic extremist attacks.
    NETCU also provide Government and our partners in the police service, Crown Prosecution Service and industry with information about trends and types of domestic extremist incidents and crimes.
    For more information, visit their website at http://www.netcu.org.uk.

  13. I posted something similiar at Bishop Hill’s but thought I’d cross-post it here – the Information Commissioner’s Office has responsibility for:
    “Data Protection Act
    The Data Protection Act gives you the right to know what information is held about you, and sets out rules to make sure that this information is handled properly.
    Privacy and electronic communications
    The Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations set out rules for people who wish to send you electronic direct marketing, for example, email and text messages.
    Freedom of Information Act
    The Freedom of Information Act gives you the right to obtain information held by public authorities unless there are good reasons to keep it confidential.
    Environmental Information Regulations
    The Environmental Information Regulations give you the right to obtain information about the environment held by public authorities, unless there are good reasons to keep it confidential.”
    (www.ico.gov.uk)
    They have no apparent responsibility for hacking/leaking of data. The only area of expertise that ICO has that is relevant to the case is the FOI piece.
    A quick bit of Googling suggests that if hacking was being investigated then either the e-Crime section of SOCA or the Police Central e-crime Unit (PCeU) which is a part of the Metropolitan Police would be involved.. If either of these organisations were to be involved one would expect it to be included in the press release from Norfolk Constabulary.
    To my mind the statement suggests that they are investigating the FOI breaches as much as the leaking/hacking of the data in the first place.

  14. DirkH (12:56:07) :
    It means that all the secret services of the developed nations must be tracking WUWT closely because it’s the center of the sceptics conspiracy. My, they might all become sceptics reading the discussions here…
    Boys, you’re welcome!

    REPLY:
    Good grief! If they read any of the CRU e-mails, then listened to the MET’s fairy tale of a warm winter, froze their buns off getting to work and then spent the day having to read the comments here they will definitely become skeptics. Unfortunately I have serious doubts that a lot of the pushers of AGW actually believe it. They leave that to the useful idiots.
    Anyway welcome and keep your minds open, it’s your pockets they want to pick too.

  15. I would be careful about running down the Norfolk Constabulary. The Police grind slowly but they do grind small. If there has been a leak, they will find the leaker and charge him if there has been a crime. The guilt of this individual will be up to the courts. Thankfully, the police are not yet required to investigate scientific conduct.

  16. Are the alarmists now upgraded to terrorist status?
    I have wanted to visit Norfolk for years but I’m afraid someone might mistake me for a tour-orist.

  17. FYI, this is the mandate of the NETCU in the UK.
    http://www.netcu.org.uk/about/about.jsp
    From their website:
    “We support industry, academia and other organisations that have been targeted or could be targeted by extremists, providing security advice, risk assessments and information that can help minimise disruption and keep their employees safe.”
    A clue on what the investigation result will be?

  18. Look, you’ve got to think like extremely annoyed government bureaucrats. They don’t know that anything illegal occurred — because a whistleblower may have released the climategate data, and in addition the law is not very clear what can and cannot be done with all this newfangled internet stuff. On the other hand, they hate the hateful thing that was done so strongly that it must have been done by extremists — hence the investigation by the National Domestic Extremism Team. Really, it’s very simple…

  19. Hmmmm… Wouldn’t an extremist be the one trying to “correct” the historical temperature record with “value-added” data? Or, would it be the sane “deniers” claiming the world is actually round? I guess the question is, Are they investigating the right (or left) extremists?

    • Al Gore’s Brother
      “Hmmmm… Wouldn’t an extremist be the one trying to “correct” the historical temperature record with “value-added” data? Or, would it be the sane “deniers” claiming the world is actually round? I guess the question is, Are they investigating the right (or left) extremists?”
      Left wing extremist/terrorists are known as ‘community organizers’ and get government funding… they do it for the children, after all.

  20. Richard Lawson (13:03:32) :

    Why not add AGW denialists to the list.

    but first add and investigate the AGW alarmists right?

  21. Wonder how many doughnuts will be consumed before the investigation is finished.
    This is the same mob that take pictures of protestors at demonstrations, Big Brotherish dudes.

  22. Such task force is totally normal under a dictatorship. Yeah, that’s right… Gordon Brown was never elected… how long has he been there without a general election?

  23. Well, Phil Jones stepped down, at least temporarily. I’ve heard several slants as to the reason, none of which I know are certain. However, the fact that he has stepped down at all gives the distinct impression he’s done something wrong or has been bounced for bad behavior.
    Maybe the police and gumshoes are tired of freezing, too.

  24. The National Domestic Extremism Team was set up primarily to monitor animal rights activists and comprises a team of officers who assist other constabularies.
    The National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit is run by ACPO and advises institutions and organisations how to protect themselves against attack from single issue extremists.
    Both are closely involved with Special Branch and so by implication the Security Service (MI5)
    These people will not be called in to investigate FOI issues. They are there to investigate either the whistleblower or hacker(s).
    Animal rights activists have been virtually wiped out over the last three years in the UK through a combination of highly successful infiltration and intelligence gathering by Special Branch and M15. As a result it seems to me like they are now under-employed and looking to keep busy!
    Ladies and gentlemen we can safely say that in the eyes of the UK police we are all now ‘single issue extremists’. Sleep well.

  25. Domestic extremist campaigns rarely cause a danger to life, but in some cases the aim is to create a climate of fear.
    Is that sort of like State of Fear? So sad that Michael Crichton is not alive to comment on this!

  26. What is an Information Commissar–I mean Commissioner? Is that sort of like the Minister of Propaganda? How interesting that the UK even has one.

    Yes, it’s pure Orwellian Newspeak, meaning the opposite of what it says.
    In theory, he is supposed to protect your right to freedom of information.
    In practice, he protects the information from people trying to access it.

  27. Tim S. (13:07:38) :
    A whistleblower in the UK is considered a “domestic extremist” apparently. George Orwell would understand.

    Could also mean that they are investigating the possibility that the AGW crowd are extremists or showing these tendencies?

  28. Dr Bob I agree, I would put money on Briffa. His e-mails indicate he was not happy with the “trick” and there is circumstantial evidence that he was suffering from severe stress, particularly following Steve McIntyre’s investigation.

  29. Vern (13:40:15) :
    Domestic extremist campaigns rarely cause a danger to life, but in some cases the aim is to create a climate of fear.
    Is that sort of like State of Fear? So sad that Michael Crichton is not alive to comment on this!

    Quite. Just to re-state it: those who are creating a climate of fear are the Warmist alarmists.

  30. MattN (13:23:10) :
    NO ONE expects the National Domestic Extremism Team….!!!!!!!
    Our chief weapon is fear!
    Fear and Surprise….

  31. This incident with the pilfered emails reminds me somewhat of Benjamin Franklin’s involvement with the “Hutchinson Letters” — letters by the British colonial governor which argued that “there must be an abridgment of what are called English Liberties”. Franklin somehow obtained those “stolen” letters and then had the audacity to publish them — an act of heroism, in my book, although many labeled him as a dishonorable thief as a result.
    Perhaps once the purloiner of the emails is caught by the “National Domestic Extremism Team”, we should honor that person with “The Hutchinson Award” in memory of Benjamin Franklin and the noble American tradition of openness and transparency in government.
    (I’d love to see someone get that award for disclosing the mass of documents about himself that President B. O bama has kept secret.)

  32. Get a life. A bureaucrat from a rural police force has fobbed off a member of the public with waffle and jargon. What’s new?
    There’s an air of hysteria and panic round here that is making a laughing stock of the anti-AGW case and undermining the credibility of much excellent work. IMHO, it would be better all round if folk didn’t do that.

  33. MikeE (13:53:26) : Quite. Just to re-state it: those who are creating a climate of fear are the Warmist alarmists.
    “To capture the public imagination,
    we have to offer up some scary scenarios,
    make simplified dramatic statements
    and little mention of any doubts one might have.
    Each of us has to decide the right balance
    between being effective,
    and being honest.”

    – Leading greenhouse advocate, Dr Stephen Schneider
    ( in interview for “Discover” magagzine, Oct 1989)

  34. Aaah so we will be in limbo till the fat lady sings. Whats happening in the UK parliament – are any of the pollies over there actively ensuring that this is investigation is thorough, transparent and proper?

  35. I’ve also been wondering if perhaps it was Briffa who blew the whistle. He certainly has reason to resent the bullying from his colleagues to support Mann’s hockey stick. I can easily see him wanting to regain his own self-respect. After reading the e-mails I get a sense that he’s a decent person who got pushed into a corner. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he actually loathes the self-promoting Mann.

  36. Probably of a similar ilk to the knuckle dragging neanderthals that assaulted Damien Greens rights .
    Britains a disaster zone for freedom nowadays.
    Free to a good home, will no one take on a well housetrained “extremist” denier like me?

  37. “MattN (13:23:10) :
    NO ONE expects the National Domestic Extremism Team….!!!!!!!
    Our chief weapon is fear!
    Fear and Surprise…”

    Our TWO chief weapons are fear and surprise! And ruthless efficiency!
    Our THREE chief weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency! And an almost fanatical dedication to Al Gore!
    Our FOUR chief weapons are….

    • AdderW
      “…and the clouds may have a net warming effect on the planet”
      Please explain how higher planetary albedo will result in warming.

  38. Can I repeat what DC said earlier? The Information Commissioner being involved is the important part of this message, as it indicates they might be taking a good look at the FOI request avoidance – in other words they seem to be investigating CRU itself.

  39. Two can play this game. Now all you have to do is report the criminal activities of the climate scientists. Note that no one is to delete email LOL.
    http://www.netcu.org.uk/protection/reportingincidents.jsp
    Report domestic extremist incidents
    It is important that organisations and their employees report all incidents of domestic extremist activity, whatever the level of severity.
    If domestic extremists contact you or your organisation you should report it to the appropriate authority. This may be the security manager or adviser at your place of work or your local police force.
    ■Record the time and date
    ■Give a summary of what happened
    ■Note any significant details. For example, the colour, make and registration number of a car.
    ■If possible, film or photograph the incident – using mobile phones, digital cameras, digital cam-corders or CCTV.
    ■Keep any correspondence, packages and parcels. Don’t throw away anything or delete e-mail. Handle letters, envelopes and packaging as little as possible.
    You may also need to report any domestic extremist incident that occurs when you are not at work to the appropriate person in your organisation. Keep the contact details for that person with you at all times.
    If it is an emergency, for example if you have received a suspicious package, you should phone ‘999’ and ask for the police.

  40. You might consider filing a FOI request with the Norfolk Constabulary. They must respond within 20 days even when the request pertains to an ongoing criminal investigation. The important thing is to phrase the request in such a way that it demonstrates unambiguously that a “strong public interest” is at stake. If you fail to demonstrate a strong public interest then the police will almost certainly claim a “Section 30” or “Section 31” exemption under the Freedom of Information Act.
    http://www.foi.gov.uk/yourRights/exemptions.htm#30

  41. Sorry but isn’t it investigated by the anti-terrorist groups simply because Jones, Mann, Schmidt, and their comrades will ultimately be sent to Guantanamo because they organized terror against the Western economies? Or do I misunderstand it?

  42. “AdderW (14:16:14) :
    Fantastic news, The BEEB has now found out how airplanes form clouds !!!
    How aircraft contrails form cloud
    Satellite images from the UK’s Met Office reveals how condensation trails (contrails from aircraft can turn into clouds. ”
    Evil WARMING clouds!

  43. Meanwhile during all of this bureaucratic red-tape to an investigation which should be rather SIMPLE…. (i.e Fire Phil Jones and charge he and his team of scientific fraud)….
    …Britain’s government (where they should really be stepping in) fails its citizens with not enough grit for the roads and gas reserves.
    The CRU / UkMet axis of piss-poor science and modeling continues to do wreak havoc even more than the cold!
    Today’s BBC news is shows the level of hardship ALL across Europe.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8448095.stm
    Chris
    Norfolk, VA, USA

  44. I contacted them at the end of November and got this this reply:

    Dear Terry S………..
    This communication follows your enquiry with Norfolk Police on 23/11/2009 and your request for information regarding a “hacking” incident at the University of East Anglia, Climatic Research Unit. I would like to speak to you in connection with this enquiry but I note your contact has been via email only. Please can you provide me with a valid telephone number that I can reach you on so that we can speak further? Alternatively, you are welcome to call me. I am best contactable via my mobile phone, as below.
    Thank you, regards.
    Chris S………
    DC XXXX
    Protective Services
    Norfolk Constabulary
    OCC, Falconers Chase, Wymondham, Norfolk.
    Tel: 0845 XXX XXXX. Mob: XXXX XXXXXX
    email: xxxxxxx@norfolk.pnn.police.uk
    P Save trees… is it necessary to print this email?

    When I rang the mobile number Chris asked for my name, address, date of birth, occupation, employer, where and when I’d first heard of the incident, reason for the enquiry, what I was intending to do with any information I got etc.
    I was, apparently, a “loose end” in their enquiry because the email address I provided when requesting information was uea@xxxxxx.xx.xx and they thought I might be attempting to pretend to be associated with the UEA because of this.
    The good news (or bad news depending on how you consider it) is that Chris hadn’t heard of WUWT so Anthony isn’t a suspect.

  45. If you all recall one way the warmists tried to portray climategate was as
    cyberterrorism and character assassination.
    I think it is instructive to see all the meme’s they have used to characterize their opponents.
    1. Denialists ( accomplices to the holocaust)
    2. Tobacco Shills ( merchants of death)
    3. Cyber terrorists
    4. Character assassins
    Hmm. you see a common thread? Now, once they saw us in these terms.
    Once they us as evil people. as criminals. Once they accepted those frames
    what follows?
    Well, two things follow:
    1. Noble cause corruption or police misconduct. Here is what I mean. Once they saw us a criminal, then they really could go to any length to make their case against us. Hide exculpatory evidence for example — hide the decline.
    manufacture evidence. etc
    2. Vigilante Justice: Santer wants to meet us in a dark alley. DOS attacks
    against CA.
    These two types of behavior stem from the metaphors they live in. They see us as criminal. In fact Tamino (grant foster ) has actually used that exact word to describe us. is it any wonder then that they will do whatever it takes.

  46. I bet the Extreme Team was requested by the CRU based on the idea that their lab was cyber-attacked. Don’t piss them off by complaining about them. If they are reasonable, they will find this whole thing irrelevant to their mission and walk away. OTOH, It would be interesting to see their chain of command to learn where politicians can intervene to force them to make a report one way or the other.

  47. “Spartacus (14:39:53) :
    @The National Domestic Extremism Team
    I am Spartacus!”
    No it’s: “I destroyed the dam.”

  48. The majority of the comments here display a basic misunderstanding of how policing in England works. Simply by referring this matter to the NETCU gives the Norfolk Constabulary access to much more intelligence and investigative powers than they would normally have.
    An understanding of the politics and attitudes in play in this scenario is also important. Norfolk is predominantly a rural County with very conservative views. Hunting (of foxes with hounds, called The Hunt) is very popular but this has been banned by the present Government which is not very popular in the County. Five out of the eight Members of Parliament from this County are Conservatives (right wing). The acting head of the Norfolk Constabulary is Ian Learmonth
    http://www.norfolk.police.uk/aboutus/ourpeople/dccianlearmonth.aspx
    It is too complex to explain here but his ambitions appear to be limited to his confirmation in the post. The strongly Conservative Police Authority will have a big say in this. The Acting Chief Constable’s personal attitudes towards AGW are not known, neither are those of his Police Authority Members nor his MPs. However, it could be reasonably construed that there is a substantial degree of reluctance to their absolute acceptance of the AGW premise. The highly probable demise of the present governing political party here in the UK is also going to have a bearing on how this present Police investigation progresses.
    The Norfolk Constabulary will, I think, investigate the whistleblower with all due diligence. At the same time, however, I think that all other offences uncovered are also going to be fully investigated and that includes any attempt to avoid any FOI requests. Investigations into the maladministration of Government-provided funds, fraudulent presentation of data etc will, I am sure, follow. It will take a great deal of time and effort which the Constabulary can ill-afford but I am sure that they are going to perform their appointed tasks to the best of their ability.

  49. @mikelorrey (14:33:12) :
    Please explain how higher planetary albedo will result in warming.
    why are you shooting the messenger?

    Last picture (7/7)
    “The Met Office scientists compared two weather forecasting models, one that included contrail-induced clouds and one that did not. Their comparison showed that the clouds may have a net warming effect on the planet.”

  50. If this has been set up by ACPO (a private for profit organisation) then this is a fascist outfit we should all be concerned about. I should think that it will be stuffed full of “Common Purpose” Graduates too.
    Watch the Brian Gerrish videos exposing the communist Common Purpose inflitration of the police, universities, schools, hospitals, military, the BBC and most other areas of Government that are now being systematically taken out of direct state control and handed over to the “third sector”
    This is an insidious creep of fascism, whereby the public purse pays for privatised quangos to implement policies of surveillance and control that have been agreed between various agencies and quangos, by Common Purpose graduates behind closed doors.

  51. “I thought englishmen at once wrote to their MP about their concerns..”
    I tried that with regard to this case, and got no reply – a new MP, obviously not wanting to risk her well paid job….
    “Read George Orwell’s book 1984 for more details of where Britain is headed.”
    No, we’re already there.
    “I’m going to Norwich tomorrow to watch the mighty Canaries, so I’ll keep an eye out for any balaclava-wearing anti-climate change hacker terrorists.”
    We are promised more Global Warming falling from the sky on Saturday, so you might be stuck here for a while…
    ACPO is a private limited company which oversees the police in the U.K. They are (conveniently?) exempt from the FOI act so getting any information on them is difficult.
    http://www.acpo.police.uk/default.asp
    and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Chief_Police_Officers

  52. “TerryS (14:43:16) :
    I contacted them at the end of November and got this this reply:
    Dear Terry S………..
    […]
    Tel: 0845 XXX XXXX. Mob: XXXX XXXXXX
    email: xxxxxxx@norfolk.pnn.police.uk
    P Save trees… is it necessary to print this email? ”
    That’s too funny… printing out an e-mail is together with tarmacking roads one of the best known ways of carbon sequestration known to mankind!

  53. Does this mean they now have reason to believe it was in fact “domestic”, despite the Russian angle?

  54. For any non-Brits pondering this, you have to remember that our Nu labour government, as proxy for the EU, has for 12 years used Orwell’s “1984” as a blueprint, not a warning.
    So, Europa is at war with CO2, Europa has always been at war with CO2 and AGW scepticism is Doubleplus ungood. Big Brother is watching you as you read this.
    Never mind, have another glass of Victory Gin.
    Cheers!

  55. Dave B (13:58:16) A bureaucrat from a rural police force has fobbed off a member of the public with waffle and jargon. There’s an air of hysteria and panic round here that is making a laughing stock of the anti-AGW case and undermining the credibility of much excellent work.
    JDN (14:43:35) : I bet the Extreme Team was requested by the CRU based on the idea that their lab was cyber-attacked. Don’t piss them off by complaining about them.
    Richard Lawson (13:39:52) : The National Domestic Extremism Team was set up primarily to monitor animal rights activists [who] have been virtually wiped out over the last three years in the UK… it seems to me like they are now under-employed and looking to keep busy!

    So, folks, keep yer hats on! I think Steve McIntyre snips speculations for a very good reason… their tendency to hype. Stay with facts… like good scientists.

  56. Dave B said, “Get a life. … There’s an air of hysteria and panic round here that is making a laughing stock of the anti-AGW case and undermining the credibility of much excellent work.”
    Is he serious? I see no hysteria or panic here, just mockery and astonishment. This is not something that makes a laughing stock of the anti-AGW case, but a laughing stock of the AGW side. “Oh dear! They brought in the National Domestic Extremism Team! Whatever shall we do?” We drip with sarcasm, scorn, and contempt at them, not hysteria or panic.

  57. Stephen Brown gives valuable insight here. I too believe this investigation is a two edged sword. Shutting down developing world growth, funding third world dictators via ” climate debt”, and rorting the system to benefit the first world and the likes of Pauchari, Gore and corrupt climate researchers sucking on the teat of billions of dollars of research grants – now if that ain’t criminal, what is???

  58. Would officers from the “National Domestic Extremism Team” hold the title of ‘Vicar Sargeant’ or ‘Detective Parson’?

  59. Let’s not get too carried away with this. The police will do their job as well as they can. Let’s concentrate on the Science and, if needs must, the motives of those directly involved.
    I have every confidence in our Police.

  60. I don’t know about the rest of WUWT’s readers, but personally I’m extremely upset that no one has found the whistlebl–
    Er, I mean I’m mildly upset, yeah, that’s it…well, more like I don’t care at all about it…um, about anything. Yeah, that’s me, no extreme views…just minding my own business…no complaints…middle of the road…
    Say, did a black helicopter just fly across the page?

  61. This is a better article, wow!
    http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/2010/January/letters/What%20if%20they%E2%80%99re%20right.htm
    What if they’re right?
    8 January 2010
    I enjoyed John Tulloch’s letter of 7 January (‘Copenhagen pantomime’), and in the interests of keeping the debate open over whether or not the unproven theory of anthropogenic global warming of the planet is real, I recently came across a very interesting report that puts a completely different light on the whole subject, if found to be true.
    The climate change alarmists, a term I dislike only slightly less than deniers, are often gleefully pointing out that sceptical reports on the causes of climate change are not peer-reviewed. Anyone who actually read the hacked emails from the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit will know why; reports sceptical of anthropogenic global warming have been effectively frozen out of the peer review process by underhand methods that have no place in real science.
    However Physics Reports, a peer-reviewed journal, has recently published a report by Qing-Bin Lu, a professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Waterloo. The report, fully reviewed and endorsed by his peers, convincingly links CFCs and the depletion of the ozone layer in the stratosphere to the warming that was seen in the latter half of the 20th century.
    The interesting thing about this report is that it uses real world data to back up its claims, and not computer model projections. When you realise that the IPCC projections of climate change are based largely on land-based temperature records, you start to appreciate that the data they use is not as solid as they would have you believe.
    There are problems with land-based temperature records. For a start the land of this planet covers only some 30 per cent of the total global area. In addition, urban heat islands, change of land use, etc, etc make land-based temperature records not the best option to use for something so important.
    Weather balloons and satellites provide us with much more reliable temperature records. If the IPCC had used these readily available records they would be forced to admit that there has been only a very slight warming trend recently.
    There’s another possible reason why the IPCC have not used these records. If the recent warming is due to the ‘greenhouse effect’ the troposphere should be warming faster than the earth’s surface. Weather balloons and satellites clearly tell us that it is not. Now, that’s something Al Gore doesn’t tell you.
    But back to Qing-Bin Lu and his hypothesis that CFCs and the depletion of the ozone in the stratosphere is the reason for global warming. It’s every bit as good a model and theory as the one that says CO2 is the culprit. The peer-reviewed report is 57 pages long and extremely detailed. It’s at least worthy of further investigation. What if he’s right?
    What if the 4,000 plus scientists from 106 countries, including 72 Nobel prize winners, who all signed the Heidelberg Appeal calling for a rational scientific approach to environmental problems, are also right?
    What if the scientists who support the Statement by Atmospheric Scientists on Greenhouse Warming, as well as those who support the Leipzig Declaration and of course, the Oregon Petition are right too?
    That accounts for many, many thousands of respectable and responsible scientists, all saying there’s a doubt that needs investigation, and that there is no scientific consensus, and there never ever was either.
    The main scientists leading the IPCC reports are the likes of Michael Mann and Phil Jones who have now been exposed as people who appear quite willing to stoop as low as it takes to get their own agendas acted on. That’s not science!
    The leaked emails and documents from the Climate Research Unit in East Anglia have changed everything. Yes, there are plenty of influential voices telling us that whatever the emails say, they don’t affect the underlying science. That part is rock solid! That’s what we are told. Really? I mean, REALLY? So, what exactly does Kevin Trenbreth mean then when he replies to Tom Wigley, who has said he doesn’t agree with what Trenbreth says about the general lack of understanding of the global climate:
    “How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!”
    Those are the written words of a senior climate scientist, and nothing has changed since he wrote them. He is effectively saying that they can’t account for what is happening in the global climate system, and therefore if the world reduces emissions or reduces the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, they won’t be able to tell whether or not it was successful! And that’s just a small part of the leaked emails too.
    Anyone who says that the leaked emails do not affect the underlying scientific theory of anthropogenic global warming is quite simply either a liar, or someone who has not actually read them. The emails and documents leaked from the East Anglia CRU expose the climate change science for what it is, and that is nowhere near the glitzy polished message of doom we have had crammed down our throats for too many years. The picture that emerges is one at best of scientists who really do not have a clue what is going on, and at worst of scientists deliberately fudging details and altering records to fit their own agendas.
    Copenhagen certainly was a pantomime and thank goodness too! Meanwhile the UK basks in the coldest winter in decades, as does the US and most of Europe and Asia. Here in my part of south west Spain we have a forecast of snow for Thursday. It hasn’t snowed here in my village for almost 20 years. The weather forecasters say it is unlikely to lie as snow for more than 30 minutes, and it won’t be much either. But it will be snow! It may even make me feel homesick and wish for global warming.
    Kind regards,
    John Coutts
    Spain

  62. What is so “frankly amazing” about this?
    This is an agency established years ago. They are investigating an incident referred as a “hack”, even by this very website, potentially of international origin.
    There’s no conspiracy here, just people doing their jobs.

  63. Do their oficers use badges and have hats and jackets with NDET on them?
    What do you do?
    I’m a NDET agent.
    Far out.

  64. There could be a very simple explanation for involving National Domestic Extremism Team: the Norfolk Police lacks computer competence, or their competence in such matters is very limited. So involving them could be a way to get extra computer investigation skills.
    If it is a whistleblower (which I think is very likely) I think they should have a pretty good idea of who it is (or they’d have identified a smaller group of “suspects”).
    And thay guy is a folk hero.
    –Ahrvid

  65. Domestic extremist campaigns rarely cause a danger to life, but in some cases the aim is to create a climate of fear.
    When it’s a warm extremist event, it’s a climate of fear.
    When it’s a cold extremist event, it’s a weather of fear.
    That right?

  66. steven mosher:
    care to revisit any of the names and derogations that have been directed at climate scientist by the denizens of this site?
    the mud has been slung in both directions for quite some time. it’s a little late to play the “Holier Than Thou” card.

  67. The installment of the “National domestic Extremism Team” is an extremistly biased start for this investigation. It doesn’t appear to be their mission to try to verify accusations made by “extremists”.

  68. Richard Lawson (13:39:52) : The National Domestic Extremism Team was set up primarily to monitor animal rights activists [who] have been virtually wiped out over the last three years in the UK… it seems to me like they are now under-employed and looking to keep busy!
    Well, that’s unfortunate.

  69. *****************
    Barry Foster (13:34:47) :
    Meanwhile, the BBC (in a panic that people may be turning off of warming) put out more BS http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8437703.stm
    ****************************
    “Despite the high readings, Professor Gustafsson said that so far there was no cause for alarm, and stressed that further studies were still necessary to determine the exact cause of the methane seepage.
    “It is important now to understand how fast it is being released and how much is being released,” he said. ”
    Translation: “I’m gonna get a boat-load of money to study this!”

  70. As an Englishman, perhaps I can translate for my North American colleagues.
    “We ain’t saying nuffin’. We know nuffin’; and won’t admit to nuffin’. Especially that we’ve discovered it was leaked by an internal person of some import and the boss told us to say nuffin'”

  71. Britain sent 4000 Polish Army officers to their DEATHS after WWII…lying to them,
    and letting STALIN execute them.
    I for one have NEVER forgiven Britain for this.
    Brits: You can freeze in HELL until you ADMIT your crime and beg forgiveness.
    IF you are British and don’t know about it, look it up.
    Climate Gate makes just another addition to Britain’s history of crimes agains humanity.

  72. I’m happy to be a single issue “extremist”, a flat-earther or even a “denialist”. My number’s in the book, but please excuse my children(5) and my lovely, innocent wife from my thought crimes. My bag and books are packed ready for that knock on the cold front door, that was once my protection.

  73. National Domestic Extremism Team????
    Hello? I’d like to report U.K. extremists working with cells now spread to the U.S. who, for the express purpose of creating a climate of fear, are working to spread a false alarm that will cause starvation of poor people, extinction of species, and other calamities.
    Their gang symbol is the initials AGW, and their domestic leaders are Phil Jones, George Monbiot, and some other yet unspecified extremist activists.
    One of the extremists in an American who has a business based in the U.K. who goes by the name of Al Gore. His extremist statements are well documented. The repetitive outcry of these people is causing unnecessary widespread panic. They are causing civil unrest and have even advocated civil disobedience.
    These individuals should be taken into custody for their own protection if nothing else.

  74. “We support industry, academia and other organisations that have been targeted or could be targeted by extremists, providing security advice, risk assessments and information that can help minimise disruption and keep their employees safe.”
    Sounds like they should be going after Hansen and company for vandelizing that coal plant.

  75. I nominate MattN as quote of the week:
    NO ONE expects The National Domestic Extremism Team !!
    The Constabulary Investigation revealed as Monty Python 🙂

  76. You’ve read some of the emails and sensed the attitudes of the players. Now imagine you are a UK policeman doing your job sent to investigate this issue. Can you imagine the condescending attitude you would meet because you will be wasting vaulable “sciecification” time?
    If the Team can’t handle audits, how will they handle PC Plod trawling through CRU. Let alone daring to question the “science”. I am not sure how many zealots you will find in the Norfolk Constabulary but Norfolk strikes me as a hotbed of conservatism at both government and county council levels. Not that that means much in the bipartisan nature of the warmists but these are country folk.
    And don’t forget the Independent Review underway. These must be very interesting times at CRU.

  77. Would that C S Lewis were alive today to write his sequel to “That Hideous Strength” and the story therein about NICE, the National Institute for Co-ordinated Experiments. More than coincidence, methinks, that one of the heroes of the book was Mr Bultitude, a bear no less. Seems to me that Lewis was remarkably prescient about IPCC, NDET, NETCU and their ilk.

  78. steven mosher (14:28:41)
    I just re-watched that movie two days ago and when I read the post it was the first thing that popped into my mind. Then “THE DEPARTMENT OF REDUNDANCY DEPARTMENT” came to mind.

  79. Yarmy, Norwich (CRU) vs Exeter (Hadley), should be cracking contest! I shall monitor for bias from the River End. OTBC

  80. Tim S. (13:07:38) :
    A whistleblower in the UK is considered a “domestic extremist” apparently. George Orwell would understand.

    Understand? He WROTE it. For the infowar clowns.

  81. “xyzlatin (12:52:58) :
    Now you know why the whistleblower will never come forward voluntarily. Britain is not free any longer. Read George Orwell’s book 1984 for more details of where Britain is headed.”
    Actually, 1984 is about where the world is heading. Of course, it was set in London, the capital of Oceania, and Oceania included the US. Us Americans only think we won the revolution, but this just freed the crown from paying for our defense. We still pay tribute via the interest we pay on personal and public debt (Bank of England style of central banking has went global over the past 300 years, including the US in 1913) and defend the Brits 19th century style Free Trade and colonialism (a different form where the governments are controlled with credit and oil) with our military (good deal for the Brits). Our Presidents, Generals and Fed Chairmen get knighted by the Queeen. Sir Greenspan, Sir Bush, Sir Bradley, etc.
    As for labeling those who oppose the green agenda as extremists, don’t laugh. DHS said those who believe in the constitution, 3rd parties, etc may be extremists. Hansen called for CEO’s responsible for CO2 production to be prosecuted and called for civil disobedience without being punished by his employer (Uncle Sam). On some some progressive sites an AGW skeptic who comments is called “dangerous”. Some would make AGW skepticism illegal like Holocaust Denial (even skepticism about some of the details) is in Europe.
    Religions have always been a tool of the ruling elite. This Green movement, specifically as it relates to AGW has all the elements of a secular state religion. With the current cold spell, they might need to step back and rethink how they blame it on mans CO2, but they are Fabians, and have plenty of patience in achieving their goals. An Orwellian would say Green is Red.

  82. Isn’t “National Domestic…” – a tautology?
    It would be more impressive if it was the “Federal Domestic Team of Extreme Nationalists.”

  83. Alan S said: “Welcome to 1984, 🙁 just waiting for the cameras in every home.” Not installed yet, I agree – but we’ve already got thoughtcrime, and Big Brother is alive and well – just hasn’t got a face yet.

  84. @ Ray (13:37:36) :
    The prime minister is never elected.
    The party is elected, the leader becomes the prime minister.

  85. D. King (13:53:50) :
    MattN (13:23:10) :
    NO ONE expects the National Domestic Extremism Team….!!!!!!!
    Our chief weapon is fear!
    Fear and Surprise….
    and ruthless efficiency….

  86. JoePapp (16:06:13) :
    I admit no crime. How am I responsible for the actions of the grandparents of people I’m not even related to? My grandfathers fought in the deserts of north africa as liberators against the germans.
    You might want to look it up yourself, of course. The Katyn massacre took place in 1940, which was near the start of the war, not after it. The fact is, at that time we were in a war for our very existence. It’s easy to sit in comfort from the opposite end of the century and demand apologies and reparations and throw accusations of complicity and bad judgement (to put things lightly) but it’s important to remember that you and I were not there. We weren’t privy to the information they had. Most importantly, we are not fighting for our very lives. So, demand apologies all you like, because you won’t get them from this Brit. I do not ever apologise for things I am not responsible for and I refuse to bear responsibility for something that happened before my parents were even born.

  87. JoePapp (16:06:13),
    I believe it was in fact mostly Cossacks. However, that was not Britain, that was politics and politicians. Yes, our politicians were to blame, but that does not include every man woman and child who were unaware of it. Almost every civilisation and country has committed crimes in its past, including the USA, but that does not mean we hold today’s citizens to account. The British people are not responsible for Climategate, just a few scientists, some are our own and but many are from other nationalities. I do not see you condemning those nationalities with the same vitriol. I regret that I find your hatred depressing, as that is what colours this debate, mindless and thoughtless hatreds that have nothing to do with science or climate. And even more sadly, such comments can only give an outside party the feeling that perhaps there are some extremists on the sceptic side of the debate.
    I have no wish to enter into a slanging match about this, but as a traveller of the world, I have respect for the majority of citizens of every country. I do not blame the Germany of today for the sins of the Nazis, nor condemn todays Russians for the sins of Stalin. As a British citizen, I abhor today’s politicians, but it is my country and I am proud of it, and proud of the many times it has stood against tyranny in the past. I am sure we shall come through this one, – we tend to be slow to anger, but righteous more often than not.

  88. Get ones enemy’s enemy to reveal their fraud!. I suggest asking a different policing agency to investigate as well.! Or use of private detectives to target insiders to collapse this fraud from within!.

  89. Richard Lawson (13:39:52) :
    “Animal rights activists have been virtually wiped out over the last three years in the UK through a combination of highly successful infiltration and intelligence gathering by Special Branch and M15.”
    .
    .
    Umm – I think they simply became part of the establishment, such as the head of the WWF now being the head of the MET, and Greenpeace being lined up with the oil companies, and the former head of the CRU is a – ummm – respected — ummm – “researcher”.

  90. this blog is being read by the “powers that be”, or by their minions. they know the tide is turning.
    censorship doesn’t work here, and they know it.
    al gore strikes again!

  91. “National Domestic Extremism Team.”
    I hope Anthony is not on homeland security extremists list. Are you allowed to board planes Anthony?

  92. >>
    Phil M (15:44:14) :
    care to revisit any of the names and derogations that have been directed at climate scientist by the denizens of this site?
    the mud has been slung in both directions for quite some time. it’s a little late to play the “Holier Than Thou” card.
    <<
    He who mud slings last mud slings best.
    Jim

  93. The reason the NDET was brought in was to give the local plods more power to investigate – including the ability to extract passwords under threat of imprisonment – and without any possible defense of self-incrimination.
    The UK RIPA act, specifically section 49, exists for this purpose.
    The Register has a piece on prosecutions in domestic extremism cases
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/11/ripa_iii_figures/
    Do not for one moment be fooled into thinking the cops are out to do a balanced investigation. They have one object only – to get a prosecution. And to do that they use every possible power available to them.
    They will be trying to find a whistle-blower – or less probably a hacker. The password coercion powers will be being used to gain access to encrypted files and emails of suspects.

  94. Wyndham Dix (16:32:58) :
    Would that C S Lewis were alive today to write his sequel to “That Hideous Strength” and the story therein about NICE, the National Institute for Co-ordinated Experiments. More than coincidence, methinks, that one of the heroes of the book was Mr Bultitude, a bear no less. Seems to me that Lewis was remarkably prescient about IPCC, NDET, NETCU and their ilk.

    You can buy that book on US Amazon here (used paperbacks are cheap):
    http://www.amazon.com/That-Hideous-Strength-Space-Trilogy/dp/0743234928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263001840&sr=1-1
    On UK Amazon here (click on “show more editions” to get very cheap used paperbacks):
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/That-Hideous-Strength-C-S-Lewis/dp/0007157177/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263001984&sr=1-1

  95. I’m going to suggest that there’s a subtle reason this group has been brought in to perform the investigation. From Wikipedia:
    “The National Extremism Tactical Co-ordination Unit (NETCU) is a British police organization funded by, and reporting to, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) that coordinates police action against groups in the United Kingdom it describes as extremist. As of April 2007, it was headed by Superintendent Steve Pearl.[1] ******Because the ACPO is not a public body but rather a private limited company, NETCU is exempt from freedom of information laws and other kinds of public accountability******, even though they are funded by the Home Office and deploy police officers from regional forces.”
    So, no one will ever be able to know anything about the investigation that some other body doesn’t decide to “officially” accept from them.
    I’m not sure if the Brits in this instance or the Democrats in reconciliation on healthcare legislation are doing a more amazing job of hiding information from the public. But it is all pretty impressive!

  96. Jim Masterson (17:46:20) :
    >>
    Phil M (15:44:14) :
    care to revisit any of the names and derogations that have been directed at climate scientist by the denizens of this site?
    the mud has been slung in both directions for quite some time. it’s a little late to play the “Holier Than Thou” card.
    <<
    "He who mud slings last mud slings best."
    They drew first mud. – Rambo

    • Glenn
      “He who mud slings last mud slings best.”
      “They drew first mud. – Rambo”
      Mud determines character. – Me.

  97. Another Brit (17:21:46)
    Archonix (17:20:16),
    JoePapp’s opinion is his own. It’s certainly not mine, and I don’t think it’s the opinion of very many here. Most Americans look upon Great Britain with fondness and respect, and I think most Brits look upon America like proud parents whose offspring has exceeded their expectations.
    Personally, I don’t have hatred for the malefactors, but I do have lots of frustration at the complicit media, law enforcement, government and professional organizations that appear to be furiously working behind the scenes at damage mitigation, hoping to gloss over the CRU email scandal by not reporting it, and by appointing tame investigators who will generally whitewash the incident with a wink and a nod, and a minor slap on the wrist.
    And I put the deceitful and arrogant little U.S. Napoleon, Michael Mann, at the top of the list, even over the CRU players. He is no doubt a big part of the reason – if not the entire reason – that the East Anglia emails were leaked. Mann is certainly not averse to stepping on toes and throwing his weight around, and the undeserved hero status conferred on him in his early 30’s by the IPCC, realclimate and others surely added to his swagger. I look forward to Mann meeting a new Iron Duke at his own Wellington.

  98. joe (17:40:30) :
    “National Domestic Extremism Team.”
    “I hope Anthony is not on homeland security extremists list. Are you allowed to board planes Anthony?”
    This may not be such a joke:
    “The top of the document also defines “alternative media” as something sinister — though the term is commonly used to describe blogs and popular publications like New York’s Village Voice.”
    “Alternative media” is “a term used to describe various information sources that provide a forum for interpretations of events and issues that differ radically from those presented in mass media products and outlets,” the report says.”
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/05/maverick-dhs-office-issues-glossary-domestic-extremist-groups/

  99. Jim (16:02:58) :

    *****************
    Barry Foster (13:34:47) :
    Meanwhile, the BBC (in a panic that people may be turning off of warming) put out more BS http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8437703.stm
    ****************************
    “Despite the high readings, Professor Gustafsson said that so far there was no cause for alarm, and stressed that further studies were still necessary to determine the exact cause of the methane seepage.
    “It is important now to understand how fast it is being released and how much is being released,” he said. ”
    Translation: “I’m gonna get a boat-load of money to study this!”

    The most interesting part of the entire thing is at the end. It is a common and nasty ‘trick’:

    Despite the high readings, Professor Gustafsson said that so far there was no cause for alarm, and stressed that further studies were still necessary to determine the exact cause of the methane seepage.
    “It is important now to understand how fast it is being released and how much is being released,” he said.
    However, there is a real fear that global warming may cause Siberia’s subsea permafrost to thaw.
    Some estimates put the amount of carbon trapped in shelf permafrost at 1,600 billion tonnes – roughly twice as much carbon as in the atmosphere now.
    The release of this once captive carbon from destabilised ocean sediments and permafrost would have catastrophic effect on our climate and life on Earth, warn the scientists.

    (my emphasis)
    So he, the accurately reported author or a peer reviewed work on this, states that “so far there was no cause for alarm”. OK, good.
    Then the BBC itself helpfully adds: “there is a real fear” and goes on to describe these fearsome reports as coming from “the scientists”. No mention of which scientists. The natural conclusion (and this is not accidental) is that the same scientists just quoted are “the scientists”, but this is obviously not true if you read carefully enough.
    This is exactly how the MS get the message of alarmism across. In most cases there is no conspiracy, because the only purpose of most media is to sell advertising. Everything else is just a method of getting you to see the advertising, from bare-chested young ladies to climate alarmism.
    Unfortunately the BBC do not have that excuse, so I have to assume it is politically motivated.

  100. The Character Mudd appeared in the orignal Star Tek Series episode #106
    His full name was Harcourt Fenton Mudd aka Leo Walsh.

  101. Smokey (18:11:35) :
    Another Brit (17:21:46)
    Archonix (17:20:16),
    “JoePapp’s opinion is his own. It’s certainly not mine, and I don’t think it’s the opinion of very many here. Most Americans look upon Great Britain with fondness and respect, and I think most Brits look upon America like proud parents whose offspring has exceeded their expectations.”
    Not mine either. Apologies to the British. Papp needs to go away.

  102. mikelorrey (18:16:38) :
    Glenn
    “He who mud slings last mud slings best.”
    “They drew first mud. – Rambo”
    “Mud determines character. – Me.”
    “Here’s to mud in your eye” – Yoda

  103. Domestic extremism of all persuasions has always been a constant blight upon our civilisation for centuries.
    Over the last three quarters of a century our western society has become increasingly specialised and concentrated in most of it’s essential services and as such has become ever more vulnerable to strikes against a particular part of our essential infrastructure or leadership.
    Examples such as power stations and electrical sub stations, water supply systems, rail and transport infrastructure such as vital bridges and so many more essential items that the public never give a thought to in keeping our society functioning.
    With modern weapons and the ability to communicate and organise very rapidly and over long distances due to the speed and efficiency of the modern communications systems, domestic terrorism even if only organised by a tiny cell of extremists, now has the capability to destroy the essential underpinnings of our society and it’s day to day functioning as well as creating many deaths and great destruction all in the name of promoting their particular brand of a twisted and warped ideology.
    For those who know their history, the Black Hand society, a group of slavic extremists are blamed for the starting of world war one when they assassinated the Archduke of Austria.
    The extremist anti jewish National Socialists ie; nazi’s, arose out of the ashes of the German Weimar Republic.
    The murderous European based Red Brigades of the 1970’s were domestic terrorism at it’s worst.
    The animal liberation movement was steadily evolving towards a more and more extremist movement where the end justified the means no matter how extreme.
    And there are indications that a similar extremism will eventually emerge in the global warming alarmist camp when we already see extremists trying to shut down power stations.
    Recently in the UK, global warming extremists were attempting to chain themselves to a coal elevator feeding the boilers on a major power station and by doing so, shutting down the power station.
    An act that fortunately was stopped by the police just before the extremists could carry out their act.
    The long term history of domestic terrorism and domestically based extremism where any means, no matter how disruptive to society or how many innocent lives are destroyed, justifies the end has a history which shows that such movements will eventually descend into full scale and possibly murderous violence against both the leadership of our society and against society as a whole.
    The reaction of governments is to now create intelligence organisations whose role is to find, watch, infiltrate and neutralise such extremist groups which has led to the creation of organisations like the UK’s National Domestic Extremism Team.
    No doubt there are now parallel organisations in a number of other western countries with similar roles to play against domestically based terrorism.
    The real problem is not the gathering of information or the role that these organisations play in neutralising domestic terrorism but that history shows that these semi secret governmental type organisations invariably expand their tentacles into other parts of society , something that is never envisaged or foreseen by those who set the organisations up in the first place.
    So the question of real significance is not the National Domestic Terrorism Team’s existence and it’s role in watching for and neutralising domestic terrorism but ;
    Who and what watches the watchers?

  104. “Understand? He WROTE it. For the infowar clowns” Animal Farm (16:36:03)
    Can you say what you mean by the term ‘infowar clowns’ please because I use the website frequently as a resource.
    Thanks.

  105. US Weather Bureau Report
    The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway.
    Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto
    unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as
    81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm.
    Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared. Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.
    (Sorry, I neglected to mention that this report was from
    November 2, 1922 as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post.)

  106. JoePapp (16:06:13)
    The BAOR base in Bielefeld (and possibly elsewhere in Germany, I only saw them in Bielefeld) was guarded in the 1960’s by elderly Polish men in blue overcoats who had decided to remain in W. Germany after WW2 rather than return home because of the threat of persecution and possibly death. Life is complicated isn’t it. If you drive a Volkswagen thank the British army for that!

  107. john (16:50:27) :
    And you accept that? Of course, there is worse… an unelected Queen!
    At least here in Canada our Prime Minister still has to be elected in a riding in order to have a seat in the Chamber.

  108. >>
    Glenn (18:28:19) :
    “He who mud slings last mud slings best.”
    “They drew first mud. – Rambo”
    “Mud determines character. – Me.”
    “Here’s to mud in your eye” – Yoda
    <<
    “Tell your parents not to muddy the water around us.
    Our group had 25% fewer cavities with clean water.”
    -Kingston Trio–Coplas Revisited
    Jim

  109. By Paul Lewis, Rob Evans and Matthew Taylor~London Guardian
    Police are gathering the personal details of thousands of activists who attend political meetings and protests, and storing their data on a network of nationwide intelligence databases.
    The hidden apparatus has been constructed to monitor “domestic extremists”, the Guardian can reveal in the first of a three-day series into the policing of protests. Detailed information about the political activities of campaigners is being stored on a number of overlapping IT systems, even if they have not committed a crime.
    Senior officers say domestic extremism, a term coined by police that has no legal basis, can include activists suspected of minor public order offences such as peaceful direct action and civil disobedience.
    Three national police units responsible for combating domestic extremism are run by the “terrorism and allied matters” committee of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo). In total, it receives £9m in public funding, from police forces and the Home Office, and employs a staff of 100.
    An investigation by the Guardian can reveal:
    • The main unit, the National Public Order Intelligence Unit (NPOIU), runs a central database which lists thousands of so-called domestic extremists. It filters intelligence supplied by police forces across England and Wales, which routinely deploy surveillance teams at protests, rallies and public meetings. The NPOIU contains detailed files on individual protesters who are searchable by name.
    • Vehicles associated with protesters are being tracked via a nationwide system of automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras. One man, who has no criminal record, was stopped more than 25 times in less than three years after a “protest” marker was placed against his car after he attended a small protest against duck and pheasant shooting. ANPR “interceptor teams” are being deployed on roads leading to protests to monitor attendance.
    • Police surveillance units, known as Forward Intelligence Teams (FIT) and Evidence Gatherers, record footage and take photographs of campaigners as they enter and leave openly advertised public meetings. These images are entered on force-wide databases so that police can chronicle the campaigners’ political activities. The information is added to the central NPOIU.
    • Surveillance officers are provided with “spotter cards” used to identify the faces of target individuals who police believe are at risk of becoming involved in domestic extremism. Targets include high-profile activists regularly seen taking part in protests. One spotter card, produced by the Met to monitor campaigners against an arms fair, includes a mugshot of the comedian Mark Thomas.
    • NPOIU works in tandem with two other little-known Acpo branches, the National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit (Netcu), which advises thousands of companies on how to manage political campaigns, and the National Domestic Extremism Team, which pools intelligence gathered by investigations into protesters across the country.
    Denis O’Connor, the chief inspector of constabulary, will next month release the findings of his national review of policing of protests. He has already signalled he anticipates wide scale change. His inspectors, who were asked to review tactics in the wake of the Metropolitan police’s controversial handling of the G20 protests, are considering a complete overhaul of the three Acpo units, which they have been told lack statutory accountability.
    Acpo’s national infrastructure for dealing with domestic extremism was set up with the backing of the Home Office in an attempt to combat animal rights activists who were committing serious crimes. Senior officers concede the criminal activity associated with these groups has receded, but the units dealing with domestic extremism have expanded their remit to incorporate campaign groups across the political spectrum, including anti-war and environmental groups that have only ever engaged in peaceful direct action.
    All three units divide their work into four categories of domestic extremism: animal rights campaigns; far-right groups such as the English Defence League; “extreme leftwing” protest groups, including anti-war campaigners; and “environmental extremism” such as Climate Camp and Plane Stupid campaigns.
    Anton Setchell, who is in overall command of Acpo’s domestic extremism remit, said people who find themselves on the databases “should not worry at all”. But he refused to disclose how many names were on the NPOIU’s national database, claiming it was “not easy” to count. He estimated they had files on thousands of people. As well as photographs, he said FIT surveillance officers noted down what he claimed was harmless information about people’s attendance at demonstrations and this information was fed into the national database.
    He said he could understand that peaceful activists objected to being monitored at open meetings when they had done nothing wrong. “What I would say where the police are doing that there would need to be the proper justifications,” he said.

  110. There’s no mention of security experts involved in the investigation only the FOI people and the “National Domestic Extremism Team” (whatever they are). But it would seem they’re not so worried about the mechanics of the leak/hack but about the contents of the documents. That’s very serious it would seem.

  111. Quote : xyzlatin (12:52:58) :
    “Now you know why the whistleblower will never come forward voluntarily. Britain is not free any longer. Read George Orwell’s book 1984 for more details of where Britain is headed.”
    You are right on target.
    Civil liberties and official dogma (AGW) are incompatible.
    Best wishes for 2010,
    Oliver K. Manuel

  112. Stephen Brown. 14:49
    I agree:
    Once: Phil Jones was shunted aside. An investigation was required.
    His mates done him no favors posturing here there and everywhere, internationally, it was a Russian hack job, Their privacy broken etcetera and so on, they were hacked.
    Their safest option was context not international conspiracy.
    International E- Security is a big thing and not an EU thing.
    The released emails, code and money files have one thing in common, they were released as a FOI whistleblow.
    We can all argue how we like, once Phil was shunted, this became a legal issue, this became a legitimate FOI review.
    So two things had to happen, the FOI breach and the accusation of cyber terrorism as the Team have been fomenting have to be investigated.
    Now I can’t say if it will be a white wash or not.
    But these actions had to happen. Otherwise Phil Jones et al walk.
    There has been major remark on this blog about whistleblower protections in the UK.
    Me I’m surprised it’s been so long.

  113. reliapundit (19:08:54)
    Given all this interesting information, we presume that the part of the mandate of this unit is to investigate the Climatic research Unit on the basis of the emails which are now public, such as the evasion of legally binding FOI etc?

  114. Despite Google’s denials it appears that they do actively manipulate their autosuggest results:
    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/08/google-censoring-islam/?test=faces
    Probable manipulation related to the search term climategate appears to have ceased, as typing clim or even clmat now brings up climategate as the first suggestion, however the Fox News article definitely reinforces the contention that Google staff were actively manipulating autosuggest to try to slow the rapid spread of the climategate scandal:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/28/climategate-surpasses-global-warming-on-google-autosuggest-still-blocked/#more-13350
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/02/google-trends-on-climategate-show-public-interest-increasing-but-troubling-questions-loom/
    It looks like Google is failing at the whole “don’t be evil” thing…

  115. “Dude, look, it’s the National Domestic Extremism Team !! Are they going to, like, base jump and stuff?!? That is so totally AWESOME!!

  116. 30
    Watts seems a bit of a dullard even by denialist standards. I’ve not been able to find anything on his educational qualifications. Does he even have a university degree?
    Posted by: Giordano Bruno | December 29, 2009 3:39 PM
    31 Giordano,
    Not that lack of qualifications necessarily indicates low intelligence, but Watts has no degrees. His background is as a weather presenter. Nothing wrong with that either. We should be wary of the “argument from authority” trap. Posted by: TrueSceptic | December 29, 2009 6:03 PM
    32
    Mr. Bill – You have some pretense, I’ll give you that…
    I’ve battled you and you groupies on Wiki for longer than I should have tried to in reality. The fact of the matter is that young minds (kids) view that info as neutral and “filtered” by responsible adults and I could not feel good about myself without trying to affect your obvious bias on global warming articles. [Have you really? As who? As to the substance: you are too vague: provide specifics -W]
    I’m also the guy who said your time will come legally. You can’t support a pattern of data manipulation and misrepresentation as you have in the digital era without paying a price when facts clearly call into question your motivation and intent in retrospect. Your edits over “not peer reviewed”, when in fact the peer reviewed process on this subject was rigged internally – alone – alone should render you actions suspect. [Again, too vague. Which article? -W] Posted by: mkurbo | January 8, 2010 1:02 AM
    33
    > credentials
    Zero Degree Weatherman?
    Posted by: Hank Roberts | January 8, 2010 10:50 AM
    34
    I keep pointing out how effective the denial PR is in capturing the bulk of Google’s Image Search results — remember, the majority of voters in many elections is choosing by color and photograph associated with what they saw earlier. For a really good example of lying with imagery effectively, you won’t do much better than the uncited and unattributed stuff at agwdemotivated.blogspot.com, the website of one of the posters above. That site may well be the definitive answer to the Fermi Paradox.
    Posted by: Hank Roberts | January 8, 2010 12:02 PM
    35
    Hank – So the expenditure of trillions of dollars worldwide directed by a railroad engineer meets with your “credentials” guidelines ?
    Look, this particular issue (AGW) seems to have more than its share of academic credentials “sprinkled” all over it, but what it lacks is common sense. I have not seen Anthony Watts act in a dishonorable fashion from my interaction with the WUWT website. What I have seen is a common sense discussion on climate which is really all the world needs at this point.
    On the other side of the coin – I have witnessed dishonorable action by Mr. Connolley at Wiki first hand many times. Actions speak louder than words (or in Bill’s case “wordsmithing”).
    Posted by: mkurbo | January 8, 2010 11:16 PM
    36
    Bill – [“too vague”] Not really, maybe too general but you know where I’m coming from and we don’t need to rehash the hash we’ve already been through…
    I acknowledge that you are a key player in a brilliantly designed strategy and movement based on an ideology referenced as AGW. But dear sir, at what price ? Look at all the time, energy, and funding that has been misdirected and wasted to date on this non-issue. The real problems that could have been addressed worldwide are the blood that will reside on your hands and the select few that misrepresented at such a high and constant level.
    I don’t care for the games you play in cultivating/maintaining the Wiki AGW bias – period. It’s the kids in particular whose minds have been indoctrinated with the whole catastrophic planet warming, sea levels rising, polar bears dying, etc. and that’s not a right minded activity for true purveyors of science. Posted by: mkurbo | January 8, 2010 11:24 PM

  117. I have formed the Climate Liason Intelligence Team. We prefer if you use the acronym, ……. 8^D

  118. P Wilson (19:50:11) :
    reliapundit (19:08:54)
    “Given all this interesting information, we presume that the part of the mandate of this unit is to investigate the Climatic research Unit on the basis of the emails which are now public, such as the evasion of legally binding FOI etc?”
    “Well, Sir, until we meet again in New York, the case is sol-ved.” – Chief Inspector Clouseau

  119. Feeling a bit mischevious this evening, …. Delete previous if you see fit, …. my apologies.

  120. @ Stephen Brown (14:49:05 Jan.8)
    “The majority of the comments here display a basic misunderstanding of how policing in England works. Simply by referring this matter to the NETCU gives the Norfolk Constabulary access to much more intelligence and investigative powers than they would normally have . . . . . The strongly Conservative Police Authority will have a big say in this. The Acting Chief Constable’s personal attitudes towards AGW are not known, neither are those of his Police Authority Members nor his MPs. However, it could be reasonably construed that there is a substantial degree of reluctance to their absolute acceptance of the AGW premise . . . . . .The Norfolk Constabulary will, I think, investigate the whistleblower with all due diligence. At the same time, however, I think that all other offences uncovered are also going to be fully investigated and that includes any attempt to avoid any FOI requests. Investigations into the maladministration of Government-provided funds, fraudulent presentation of data etc will, I am sure, follow.”
    And he adds: “It will take a great deal of time and effort which the Constabulary can ill-afford . . .”
    IF we accept Stephen Brown’s view (should we?),
    how can we HELP the Norfolk Constabulary, monetary or otherwise? I’m not much up on constabulary budgets. Anyone know?
    IF we take Stephen at his word, it sure wouldn’t hurt.

  121. I’d say the National Domestic Extremist Team had to be brought in because the UEA CRU made the claim, also alleging previously that ~”National Security” was involved along with confidential agreements as excuses for not adhearing to FOI requests. The final excuse, ~”losing the data/stations” doesn’t play well against the first two excuses for the CRU here, imo.
    Given the CRU’s allegation of crimes, I’d think the contents of the whole of CRU’s + ? computer bank would have to be looked at, to verify what was leaked and to compare it to what else was in there, for good or ill, that would give more evidence as to what might the crimes might be, and what in fact was not leaked. If non FOI info was not leaked +/- truely National Security related files, then that possibly puts a good slant on what was leaked as far as its criminality goes.
    So I’d think the CRU would be the most worried, as someone else pointed out would likely result by the CRU’s having alleged a crime to begin with.
    So the CRU might be only trying to play what might be its last tactical card before otherwise being the defendent after trying to: blame and vilify the leaker. I don’t see how any of the CRU’s excuses wash well for them, because they couldn’t back them up to begin with.

  122. I wonder what Rod Serling would have made of AGW.
    “Man is about to attempt to cool off what he believes is Anthopogenic Global Warming, or in layman’s terms, the human invention of fire gone a step too far.
    What he doesn’t know yet, is that at the very same moment, nature has been preparing it’s own version of climate change. In a strange twist of fate, both arrive at the crossroads of time. Next stop, the Twilight Zone.”
    Doot-deet-doot-dee….Doot-deet-doot-dee….Doot-deet-doot-dee….
    Skreeeeeeee……….
    “Meet Michael Mann, inventor of the Hockey Stick graph. Today, he’s finally going to see his dreams come true, only this hockey stick is turned upside down, and along with the rest of the world, there’s no handle on this one, no turning back. His critics have tried to warn of impending doom, as you will see them do in the final hours of a once-warm world.”
    “We begins tonight’s story with a flock of reporters, eager to get the latest on when the global program is to begin.”

  123. remember that the hockey stick investigation of the national academy of science was led by gerry north, somebody who previously co-authored papers with hockey team members.
    therefore, another biased initialisation would indeed be disturbing.

  124. They are officer’s under the Crown. I would say.
    The only thing they will accept from the public is evidence and testimony.
    In Australia this is how a police, must police. Same as the UK. I don’t know much about the US
    Doesn’t the other side of the debate do enough of that big oil big tobacco conspiracy shite, name calling shite.
    I like this blog because aside from some comments in the comment stream it takes a non dirty hands approach.
    Willing to debate issues as issues.
    I have been in the middle of one of these FOI messes before. This thing is an emotional, political and financial mess.
    Laws broken, ethics missing. Money and Prestige and Jobs on the Line.
    Yes Wiki failed, yes it may be that Google has been less than fair.
    But the big Issues and main issues are.
    Is the AGW movement corrupt. Has science been corrupted for political and perhaps malevolent purposes.
    Side issues are side issues.
    Haven’t we got a big enough conspiracy without blackballing the Plods and the E-Spooks.
    The dice roll.

  125. I remember reading a few years ago that medics were asked to stop using derogatory acronyms about patients in their case notes. One of them stuck in my brain – NFN – normal for Norfolk!
    Back to the topic, if I were at the University of East Anglia I would be nervous about what I said to anyone while a police investigation is running. I assume that the investigation and the involvement of the National Domestic Extremism Team has spiked the timetable for the internal inquiry into the CRU. It sounds like a pigeon coming home to roost though – if you complain loudly enough that you have been hacked and you are a high profile team reliant on significant sums of public cash, don’t be surprised if there is a police investigation.

  126. I’m inclined to believe that it might be Keith Briffa, for all the reasons that have been listed above. He has faced some difficult circumstances in his personal life, by all accounts, such as his own health and the loss of his mother. In my experience, these focus the mind with considerable clarity. Certainly, the emails show that he was not always comfortable with what was being asked of him and he might well have had enough.
    If it was you, Keith, then you are an honourable man.

  127. I’m sorry.
    I have no doubt the local constabularies and even Scotland
    Yard do efficient and effective work in a preponderance of
    criminal cases.
    However, can I recall one instance, the murder of Dr. David
    Kelly, that was fraught with international military implications
    and political entanglements, a non-existent inquest, and a
    good investigative plastering over of the cracks by a
    distinguished Lord.
    This was another example of the local and district police
    being “helped” by other (and in the early moments
    unidentified) organizational personnel and entities.
    The mainstream media took an nap on the details and the
    final outcome, and the ultimate implications.
    The result of the criminal investigation was pretty much the
    outcome the Minister of Defense, the subordinate agencies
    and their international military/intelligence counterparts
    wanted to see.
    “Move along, nothing to see here.” ruled the day.
    Other than no body-under-a-tree, what’s all that different
    about the Kelly case and release of the FOIA e-mails, data
    sets and programs ?
    Hopefully, the thousands of onlookers on blogs like WUWT
    will make a difference in the focus and final outcome of
    this “investigation”.

  128. Most of you are getting too excited about this and jumping to wrong conclusions, remember what I said when the police first got involved. They took Phil Cheers down to the Police Station. They could have had a quiet word in his ‘shell like’, and found the whistleblower in a couple of hours, but they didn’t, they took him down town, which means he may well have been ‘Cautioned’ and interviewed on tape. Norfolk cops have taken a lot of stick about their competence in recent years, and they waited long enough to see that this was going to be big. They are getting others with more resources to look at this.
    Our current rulers are inept, some are stupid even, and there’s an election due, they are not stupid enough to pillory a whistleblower right in front of an election. No, this investigation will take years, but may well get the right answer in the end – be patient

  129. National Domestic Extremism Team…. Ah right. These guys identify the leadership of dissident groups and lable them “extremists” so that Special Branch can then fit them up for a crime of some sort, so as to break the focus of the targeted group…..
    Better watch out Anthony, they’ll find traces of PETN on your “delete” key and we’ll all end up in th’ nick.

  130. (Maybe it’s too early for them to decide which side they dare to support? After all the climate issue is the common discourse of our days, guarded with absolute authority. No one can afford to counter the winning side. Governance by PC.)

  131. As usual lots of witty comments on here.
    But I fear that the majority of commenters are allowing their judgement to become clouded with logic.
    One who, IMHO has it absolutely right is:-
    @Richard Lawson (13:39:52)
    I suggest you need to put yourself into the mindset of Gordon “Flat Earth” Brown, little Ed Milipede and the rest of them.
    They have heeded the ‘overwhelming scientific advice’ that AGW is a desperate threat to the World. They conveniently forget one of the fundemental laws of bullshit. If you appoint ‘expert scientific advisors’ specifically because they are true believers of the bullshit then there’s no prizes for guessing what that advice will be. And are just bright enough to realise that, if the AGW scam goes down the tube, they will have some difficult questions to answer.
    You think the ‘extremism’ boys are there to look into the wronged geniuses at CRU? You have to be kidding. There there to try to pin something on us and get rid of those irritating noises off.
    Get ready.

  132. Et al it’s called an entrance warrant.
    That is the top secret conspiracy. A warrant of entry.
    Someone has called a crime.
    Justified entry.
    Calling them storm troopers of secret evil empires dont work for me.
    Plods Plodding. Me I used to be a hero of my nation andan infantier, you know what they called me. ME. Grunt, doing grunt work.
    Until I took my uniform off asked why can’t we all get along.
    he he.

  133. I really don’t want to come across as a conspiracy theorist. Because cock ups are a lot more common than conspiracies. And I doubt if the majority of our beloved leaders are clever enough to come up with a decent conspiracy.
    But just consider the Kingsnorth Power Station criminal damage case last year. When the eco-fascist activists put Jim Hansen and his circus on the stand to prove that their protest was “to save the world”. And, of course, they got off scotfree.
    Does anyone seriously imagine that the British State couldn’t put someone on the stand for the prosecution who would have made Hansen look the moron he is? Monckton is only the most obvious candidate.
    I wouldn’t doubt that the ‘domestic extremism’ boys will keep an eye on the eco-fascists. Just to make sure that they keep their illegal activities within limits that don’t cause too many problems. But they will certainly be keeping their eyes well focussed on us pesky deniers.
    Don’t you think Pacauri might have had a word in someone’s ear?
    Don’t you thing Goldman Sachs will have discreetly pointed out how many trillions are riding on the Carbon Trading scam?
    Don’t you think that all the ‘overwhelming weight of scientific evidence’ sub-prime scientists will be interested in preserving their comfortable posts, their index-linked pensions, their research funds?
    This thing, I keep saying, is ‘too big to fail’. But eventually it will implode. In the mean time, scientific facts are perhaps the last thing on anyone’s mind. Except on a few blog sites like WUWT.

  134. So while in the usa the Universit uthorities encourage any whistle blower… re: the email in Mann’s Univeristy……. In my home uni the police think of someone exposing a possible misuse of public funds as a cause to investigate under worries of Domestic Extremism!!! Eric Blair… you would not believe it if you were still around…

  135. Many of Norfolk Constabulary’s top brass are Common Purpose graduates and they’ve resisted attempts under FOI to find out who they are.
    http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/common_purpose_training_graduate#incoming-5764
    If even half of what is claimed on the website below is true it would be totally logical for Norfolk Constabulary to call in the “Extremism Guys” to find and prosecute those trying to reveal the truth.
    http://www.stopcp.com/index.php

  136. I love free radicals.
    I love people who talk shit without backing it with their life.
    Where is your new people power, we all love your new sarcasm.
    Oh and on topic.
    Where is the uniform and sacifrice except me have Keyboard and me can talk.
    Sarcastic Neantherthals Typius Extremis.
    Me rides a Malvern Star Bike and screaming World is bad, I is a hero.
    Not a badge just an opinion.
    We is rooned we is gonna lose.
    I dont do left or right.

  137. I wouldn’t get too excited about the NDET.
    They’re probably involved because of reported threats against some of the CRU people, allegedly including death threats. Those are serious, and the police would have a duty to investigate. NDET was formed to do just that when we had animal rights activists sending bombs to other researchers. They’re probably also looking at the extremists who attempted to shut down our power stations recently. If idiots have made threats, well, that’s their lookout.
    The Information Commissioner is also theoretically on our side and is hopefully looking at CRU’s compliance with FOI laws. Any breach of those could lead to criminal sanctions against CRU and Co.
    What may be more interesting is which specialist investigators are not involved. The UK formed ‘SOCA’, the Serious and Organised Crime Agency out of the NHTCU (National High Tec Crime Unit) and other agencies. Many police forces had no/few resources to investigate hacking and IT crimes or large scale, specialist frauds and SOCA acts as a kind of UK ‘FBI’ supporting individual forces. NHTCU doesn’t exist as a seperate group, and unfortunately is very underresourced given the level of IT-related crime, but that’s a seperate scandal.
    But, given we’ve had comments from senior figures that this was a hack, possibly sponsored by foreign states, or some shadowy ‘big oil’ group as part of some international conspiracy, SOCA doesn’t get a mention. If it’s a simple local leak/whistleblower thing, they wouldn’t need to be though.

  138. Slightly off topic,
    I was some years ago working in Gt. Yarmouth ( Norfolk England ) ( oil and gas) not being a UK citizen I did not have a UK driving license but my Embassy assured me that there was a reciprocal agreement in place. I was unfortunate to cross swords with a Chief Constable ( I won ) he, put an order of the day ( I still have a copy ) that I was to be stopped and given a citation for driving without a license, I was given 7 citations while driving around the market square, there was 6 police giving them until I parked my car and walked away. lawyers costs and a very bad feeling even though I won my case ( told next time well have you ) made me get a transfer, Norfolk is definitely big brother country.

  139. The Big Yawn.
    I forgot me knows people, who knows people.
    A warrant is executed and clowns put on grease paint.

  140. OK….
    So all I want to know is exactly how many standard deviations from the mean are legal?
    Don’t want to be “extreme” after all.
    Oh, and what: Height, weight, IQ, hair color, race, religion, etc.
    must I have to avoid being “extreme” ? No, honest, I strive to be vanilla spot on average and just want to know my goal. Last I checked, I’m a couple of standard deviations away from “normal” intelligence and I cherish the opportunity to correct this sin (by the liberal application of Scotch 😉
    /sarcoff>
    Don’t know what I can do about my “extreme” hair and skin color, though. The “red head” gene breaks melanin production and makes that translucent white / clear skin and red hair… May I get a “minority rights” exemption? Please?…

  141. Norfolk police may have given you more information than you realise. From the Information Commissioners Office (ICO) website:

    Can we impose penalties for breaching the Act?
    We have a statutory power to impose a financial penalty on an organisation if the Information Commissioner is satisfied that:
    * there has been a serious breach of one or more of the data protection principles by the organisation; and
    * the breach was likely to cause substantial damage or distress.
    The power to impose a financial penalty only applies if:
    * the breach was deliberate; or
    * the organisation knew (or should have known) that there was a risk of a breach which was likely to cause substantial damage or distress, but failed to take reasonable steps to prevent it.
    This power will not come into force until we have published guidance on how it will be used. The intention is that financial penalties will only be imposed in respect of deliberate or reckless handling of personal data which seriously breaches the data protection principles.

    From this (and the rest of the page) I read it as the ICO only investigates the holder of the information which in this case is the UEA. What they investigate is whether is was deliberate (eg. An internal leak) or the security surrounding the information was so poor as to be reckless. In other words it wasn’t a crack team of Russian hackers it was either an internal whistleblower or the files where somewhere that an external person could access easily.

  142. Extremism is a deliberately ambiguous term, intended to induce fear in the reader and cover the intent of the writer.
    It’s a shame the -snip- Europeans couldn’t learn the obvious lessons of the last century, toss the lot of the collectivist politicians and bureaucrats into prison, and let free people who are doing harm to no one else get on with their lives productively, on their own terms. If that -snip- fight had been taken up there and settled, maybe we Americans who value individual freedom might not be facing the prospect of being the last line of defense, as our worst politicians have managed to get control and are doing their snip-est to emulate collectivist Euroidiocy. The USA is on the fast-track to economic ruin and most of the government-educated populace doesn’t even get what we have already lost and what we’re about to lose.
    These Washington crooks have stolen, with a couple bills in the span of weeks, hundreds of times what it took Bernard Madoff decades to rip off. If justice were blind, the whole of Congress, their staff, and the offices of the various executive departments up to the White House (Obama, Bush, et al..) would be in a cell right next to Bernie.
    Extreme this!
    [edited for profanity. please don’t do that again..-mikelorrey]

  143. frmo bob foster
    Meanwhile, the BBC (in a panic that people may be turning off of warming) put out more BS http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8437703.stm
    I looked up the report and it talks about methane release from undersea eprmafrost. NO doubt I am stupid but can someone please explain how one can have undersea permafrost. Permafrost forms on land because the surface is permanently below feezing so the ground freezes and stays frozen. But if this is underwater (water not ice) then the material above the permafrost is above zero degrees. Yes maybe the water freezes in winter but only the surface, below that there is still liquid water which is why submarines can navigate the arctic. Typically the water lower down will be at 4C the temperature of maximum density. So the permafrost has material above 0C above it and we know that ground temperature rises with depth since the core of the earth is hot. Thus this permafrost is completely surrounded by material that is above 0C so how pray tell has it remained frozen all these milennia?
    Reply: They are talking about methane clathrates. ~ctm

  144. Atomic Hairdryer (02:25:42) :
    “I wouldn’t get too excited about the NDET.”
    I agree. My comment earlier:
    “Ladies and gentlemen we can safely say that in the eyes of the UK police we are all now ’single issue extremists’. Sleep well.”
    Was very much tongue in cheek.
    And I agree that the only thing in common between this investigation and the animal rights campaign is the death threats. NDET will only be interested in the threats against Phil Jones as far I can see.
    I did not mean to come across as a conspiracy theorist. However, it still stands, that any denier breaking the law will be classed as a single issue extremist by the plod.

  145. Richard Lawson (03:43:24) : edit
    Atomic Hairdryer (02:25:42) :
    “I wouldn’t get too excited about the NDET.”
    I agree. My comment earlier:
    “Ladies and gentlemen we can safely say that in the eyes of the UK police we are all now ’single issue extremists’. Sleep well.”
    Was very much tongue in cheek.
    ____________________________
    We in the US already have Janet “Big Sister” Neapolitano treating military veterans and gun owners as threats to national security and potential terrorists (all except, apparently, the muslim members of our military, that would be offensive). Anybody who thinks we don’t live in a softcore fascist controlled world is kidding themselves.

  146. I find this ironic. While we wait for the Police to investigate the issue, the world is still cooling. Let me get this right They are trying to bust those that are for the truth and against the hoax of man-made global warming catastrophe. Let me say the legal system is very odd. I would rather they spend their time arresting people like Al Gore for scaring people into believing a lie.

  147. “Peter of Syndey (04:02:04) :
    I find this ironic. While we wait for the Police to investigate the issue, the world is still cooling. Let me get this right They are trying to bust those that are for the truth and against the hoax of man-made global warming catastrophe. Let me say the legal system is very odd. I would rather they spend their time arresting people like Al Gore for scaring people into believing a lie.”
    Al has enough money and influence to make sure the “legal” system judges in his favour. It’s good to see you use the word “legal” rather than “justice”. There is no justice system anywhere in Australia, New Zealand nor the UK. Got money? No worries!

  148. ‘Ello ‘Ello ‘Ello, woss goin’ on ‘ere then?
    Thank goodness you’ve come officer. We’ve been hacked. It’s terrible!
    All in good time my lad. Woss these big lumps of wood doin in ‘ere? You do know this is a smokeless zone don’t you?
    Ah, well, we use them to measure the temperature you see, and…
    A bit like hanging seaweed up to see if it’ll rain later?
    Ah, er, no officer, it’s more scientific than that. You see, we cut through the tree and..
    ‘Ave you got a license to operate that chainsaw sir?
    Erm, Keith has, I think. He’s in Guatemala at the moment getting more samples.
    [Copper produces notebook and pencil]
    …Illegal …logging …in …protected …rainforest
    No no, the trees tell us what the climate was like in the past and…
    [Copper gazes levelly at Wigley, and makes another note]
    …talks …to …trees.
    Look, what about our hacked computer?
    Don’t you worry about that my lad, the boys who installed the police national computer system will be able to sort that out, in ohhh, three to five years.

  149. National Domestic Extremism Team = hobby bobbies. Just beyond a joke, this country has gone down the tube, how do i become a chinese citizen?

  150. “CrossBorder (19:26:19) :
    ‘Smokey (18:11:35) :
    I look forward to Mann meeting a new Iron Duke at his own Wellington.’
    I thought Napoleon met the Iron Duke (of Wellington) at Waterloo!”
    England used to send certain people to Australia, and Smokey wants to send Mann even a bit further to New Zealand. This way he can ride a cable car, look at Thorndon and Kelburn, and learn about how not to measure temperature.

  151. I presume the Plods of the Norfolk PD are having trouble getting their pandas (what the Brits call marked police cars) out of the bike shed, so they can get out to East Anglia Poytechnic.

  152. Curiously enough, the Iron Duke’s horse at Waterloo was named “Copenhagen”, which a DT reader pointed out is a “dead horse”.

  153. Get this: Hadley was leaked before it was ‘hacked’. Paul Hudson, weather presenter and climate correspondent for the BBC posted on November 23 on his blog, that whilst he was busy performing his forecasting duties, he had been sitting on the Hadley information since … October 12 (!). He promised to comment on his page as soon as he could free up some time. The story broke only on November 19! The discrepancy has never been explained, until today. Climategate was leaked before it was hacked. When Hudson didn’t do anything with the information, the whistleblowers – in the run up to Nopenhagen – had to take other measures to break the story. Read it all in the Homeland Security News Wire below. Should the BBC take down the page, we have a screenshot.
    Homeland Security News Wire: “Climategate evidence suggests release was a leak- Climategate – Outside hacker, internal mole or whistle-blower ?” http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/climategate-evidence-suggests-release-was-leak?page=0,0

  154. Alexej Buergin,
    Yes, actually I’d like to send Mann to the Moon. I was quickly corrected and groveled for it, but as I explained up @20:59:22, I got my W’s mixed up. IIRC, it was the only misteak I’ve made.

  155. “Alexej Buergin (04:52:13) :
    “CrossBorder (19:26:19) :
    ‘Smokey (18:11:35) :
    I look forward to Mann meeting a new Iron Duke at his own Wellington.’
    I thought Napoleon met the Iron Duke (of Wellington) at Waterloo!”
    England used to send certain people to Australia, and Smokey wants to send Mann even a bit further to New Zealand. This way he can ride a cable car, look at Thorndon and Kelburn, and learn about how not to measure temperature.”
    Yeah, cost me a whole lot more than a stolen loaf of bread!

  156. Another Brit
    “As a British citizen, I abhor today’s politicians, but it is my country and I am proud of it, and proud of the many times it has stood against tyranny in the past.”
    Smokey
    ” Most Americans look upon Great Britain with fondness and respect, and I think most Brits look upon America like proud parents whose offspring has exceeded their expectations.”
    Such mutual admiration of each other notwithstanding, it would be helpful to slow down and consider whether any nationalist pride or love you might feel for your country is truly warranted.
    I am not the one to look around for historical reparations of any sort but if the present police state Britain aims to regain lost glory by seed-bombing the entire world with alarmist AGW ideas, there is something not to be proud about, in the present.
    And that offspring that the UK feels so proud about, aren’t the proud citizens of that country the same ones who voted GW Bush back to power after he had invaded Iraq hunting for fictitious WMD using the precautionary principle? Nice example of using an opportunity to fight tyranny there.
    I do agree with not feeding the food fight. And like mentioned, I join with you in condemning the odious tendency to obtain reparations from today’s society for past mistakes. I can’t even understand the thinking that goes on, except maybe as a means to obtain financial gain. But bloodshot eyes sometimes obscure what is right in front of us. Present day society might be carrying out actions which you may be proud of, or give you no reason to be not proud of, but things may look different under the lens of history. Just pointing it out that’s all.
    Cheers

  157. National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit, you guys in the UK are so lucky. We don’t (yet) have one in Canada. I’m jealous — NOT!

    • Richard Wakefield
      2010/01/09 at 6:39am
      “National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit, you guys in the UK are so lucky. We don’t (yet) have one in Canada. I’m jealous — NOT!”
      Canadian Security Intelligence Service
      http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/prrts/trrrsm/index-eng.asp
      Domestic Terrorism
      While CSIS dedicates most of its counter-terrorism resources to religious extremism, which the Government of Canada considers to be the most serious threat to the safety of Canadians, the Service also continues to monitor individuals and organizations that might be involved in other forms of terrorism, such as:
      * state-sponsored terrorism;
      * domestic terrorism (which includes the threat or the use of violence by groups advocating for issues such as the environment, anti-abortion, animal rights, anti-globalization, and white supremacy, and the dissemination of militia messages by groups in the United States); and
      * secessionist violence.

  158. In 1992, KGB Chief Yevgeni Primakov admitted to an audience of students from the Moscow State Institute of International Relations who were considering employment with the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service that the Soviet regime had mounted a propaganda campaign against American scientists. Primakov’s frank admission was reported in Izvestia:
    “[KGB Chief Primakov] mentioned the well known articles printed a few years ago in our central newspapers about AIDS supposedly originating from secret Pentagon laboratories. According to Yevgeni Primakov, the articles exposing US scientists’ ‘crafty’ plots were fabricated in KGB offices.”–Izvestia (3-19-92)
    You all should really consider that you are being used by the FSB and Russian oil and gas oligarchs who rule Russia.
    I suspect that the so-called Climategate scandal is evidence that the polonium-packing Russian FSB, not the University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit (CRU), is up to KGB-era tricks. So far, I have written four articles about the theft of e-mails from the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia, U.K.
    My first article about the connections between Tomsk hackers and the FSB was posted about a week before the British press discussed this possibility. Now the Russians claim the Chinese did it., but the Russian media has barely reported this. The Russian media sounded proud of the FSB-backed “Tomsk hackers. Russian media sounds a lot like the “denialist” bloggers. You might want to think about why that is the case.
    Here is my most recent article.
    http://legendofpineridge.blogspot.com/2010/01/tomsk-hackers-part-iii-fbi.html

  159. Think about what the KGB admitted when they were trying to seem like they were on-board with the “glasnost”:
    “[A]rticles exposing US scientists’ ‘crafty’ plots were fabricated in KGB offices.”
    Russians manipulated information about AIDS and mental illness because it served their purposes. However, 65% of Russia is permafrost and they are studying why it is melting and releasing methane.
    I think these CRU scientists are being victimized by the FSB. In Russia this is called “kompromat” and “active measures.”
    One Russian scientist named Sergei Kirpotin said it is clear that this hacking was clearly an “order” and a “provocation.” That’s a pretty brave thing to say in Russia, and he was not quoted anywhere in the world except by Russian Greenpeace.
    These nasty allegations about CRU scientists by people who are not scientists and do not understand the context of the e-mails sound just like defamatory articles in the Russian media about scientists the regime has persecuted in the past.
    I think the FSB is using “conservative” bloggers who do not accept the consensus on AGW.

  160. Here is an article about what Dr. Sergei Kirpotin of Tomsk State University said about the hacking. Why didn’t anyone in the entire world write what he said except Russian Greenpeace? This hacking must be sort of scary to him because of the Tomsk connection.
    http://legendofpineridge.blogspot.com/2009/12/meet-russian-scientist-from-tomsk.html
    Just remember this amazing admission by the KGB:
    “[A]rticles exposing US scientists’ ‘crafty’ plots were fabricated in KGB offices.”
    These are the people who made up a fake mental illness so they could jail dissidents and who claimed the US Army made AIDS to kill blacks.
    Do you really want to attack the CRU scientists when you don’t understand what the e-mails are talking about?
    FSB is counting on your scientific ignorance, but Russian buildings are cracking and falling because the ground is melting.
    Russia specialist Paul Goble has written about the possible consequences of global warming in Russia. It’s not good news. Goble has also written about the history of Tomsk hackers.

  161. @ Snapple: clutching at straws, this believer is. It’s the KGB and their ‘dirty’ oiligarchy that did it. You sound like the latter day McCarthy of “Dangerous Climate Change”.

  162. When the Russians think they can’t deal with something, they hide it from their people. They don’t want to admit they can’t fix a problem.
    After Chernobyl, they had quacks on TV tell people in those areas to put pitchers of drinking water in front of the TV so rays from the TV could take out the radiation.
    The regime knew better, but they didn’t want people to know they couldn’t solve the problem.
    Remember what the KGB said when they were trying to look like they were going to reform:
    “[A]rticles exposing US scientists’ ‘crafty’ plots were fabricated in KGB offices.”
    The KGB just wanted everyone to distrust America. But the victims were black people who became distrustful. Even today in America some blacks aren’t careful about AIDS because they believe the government is trying to kill them. This was not the KGB’s goal, but it was the result.
    Finally, the US told the Russians to stop the AIDS propaganda or we would not help them with AIDS research. Russian doctors and scientists were anxious for cooperation to cure this disease, so the propaganda stopped.
    Soon the Russians may be scared. They will need to deal with the melting permafrost.
    Maybe the FSB will admit:
    “[A]rticles exposing CRU scientists’ ‘crafty’ plots were fabricated in FSB offices.”

  163. @Capn Jack (23:05:07): “The only thing they will accept from the public is evidence and testimony. In Australia this is how a police, must police. Same as the UK. I don’t know much about the US . . . . . Haven’t we got a big enough conspiracy without blackballing the Plods and the E-Spooks[?]”
    Well said. Thanks for addressing my question @Clif C (21:30:48)
    Here’s another: Has any member of the public testified (made a formal complaint to the police) about alleged FOI lawbreaking, etc?

  164. Just because we find the idea of a foreign hack bad for our side, we shouldn’t dismiss it. The Chinese are notorious for sponsoring extensive world-wide hacking. The Chinese premier refused to attend the last-minute conference to try to salvage Copenhagen, and repeatedly had his representative at it say NO. The e-mails were sent to Tomsk from a site in Malaysia that is used by the Chinese. Some bigshot interviewed by the BBC about a week ago, who may have inside knowledge of where the investigation is heading, said it was a foreign plot. And, if the Chinese were behind this, it’s likely that the UK gov’t. will hesitate to let its officials make that accusation–which fits in with this investigation dragging on, and with this non-governmental extremism team being brought in.)
    =======
    Incidentally, that BBC reporter who a poster here said received the hacked e-mail in October has been misunderstood. What he was trying to say is that he was forwarded, by one of the team, as a normal FYI thing, a few of the e-mails that were later leaked, and that as a result he could vouch for their authenticity.

  165. Cassandra-
    You are only calling names, not providing evidence. I have a degree in Soviet/Russian studies.
    Have you read Paul Goble’s articles on climate change in Russia and about the Tomsk hackers?
    “[Goble] served in various capacities in the U.S. State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency and the International Broadcasting Bureau as well as at the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.”
    http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/

  166. Am I the only one chuckling at the delicious irony of a Police Unit, set up to counter the extremists created by the CRU alarmism, now stepping in to help investigate “crimes” against that same CRU?

  167. The Russian FSB claims they investigated the hacking and that the Chinese did it. The British investigators have not said who it was.
    The Chinese angle was barely mentioned in the Russian media which shut up when the FSB said everyone should stop saying the FSB were the culprits. Also, the Russian media isn’t going to applaud the Chinese intelligence.
    Until then, the FSB role had been extensively reported. Some articles seemed proud of the FSB. Mostly the articles defamed the CRU scientists and didn’t tell what they said the e-mail about the “trick” means. It reminded me a lot of past KGB campaigns against inconvenient scientists. The Russian articles sounded a lot like “denialist” bloggers.
    You should hear yourselves like I hear you.
    I don’t think it was the Chinese because they openly say that all their great historical eras coincide with warming. The Chinese have never said they want to do much to curb warming. Why should they mount a big operation?
    The official Russian view is that AGW is a fact but that they will deal with it by adapting. They are not sure of how bad the consequences will be for Russia. They like to put a smiley face on this problem because they don’t know what they will do if the permafrost turns into swamp.
    When something bad is happening, they don’t like to tell. Like they didn’t tell about Chernobil blowing up. Like Stalin didn’t tell right away that the NAZIS had invaded.
    Here is some information about how the Russian media reacted to the FSB claim that the Chinese hacked the CRU computer.
    http://legendofpineridge.blogspot.com/2009/12/tomsk-hackers-and-russias-fsb-part-ii.html

  168. Stealing computer information is a serious crime. The CRU’s opponents should argue with scientific arguments. Threatening scientists is a serious crime. The FBI is investigating threats against scientists. It’s a kind of terrorism. It’s like what they do in Russia. I don’t want that in America and the UK.
    These are the same kind of creeps who threaten scientists like Sakharov in the former USSR. They called his wife the “Jewess” who was manupulating him. The KGB would make everyone hate his wife.
    Since Sakharov was a hero who had made the hydrogen bomb for the USSR, they tried to malign his family with antisemitism. They even poisoned his grandchild. Their children and grandchildren went to the US to be safe, I think.
    Here is some information about the FSB claim that the Chinese are the hackers.
    http://legendofpineridge.blogspot.com/2009/12/tomsk-hackers-and-russias-fsb-part-ii.html
    Here is an article I wrote about FSB and Tomsk hackers. This was about a week before the British papers wrote about the possibility that the FSB was behind this.
    A lot of points I made turned up in those British articles. Probably those papers read what I read, not what I wrote. Maybe your intelligence told the papers about Tomsk hackers. I read about Tomsk hackers from from Paul Goble.
    http://legendofpineridge.blogspot.com/2009/11/russias-hacker-patriots-embarrass.html

  169. Cassandra Troy (05:33:45) :
    Agreed, the Paul Hudson involvement has never been resolved. I am not sure that he received the full data drop. It could be that he was only “copied in” and/or “forwarded” the emails that criticised his article “Whatever happened to global warming?”
    The interesting comment from Hudson is that he stated that some of the emails in the data drop were “genuine” as they were the same as he had received in October.
    Surely, to be able to make that statement he had to know who had “copied in” and/or “forwarded” them to him in October? He does not refer to the October emails as being hacked.
    Hudson has to know who in “The Team” was concerned about the reaction to his article.
    Time will tell, I am quietly confident that the police investigation will reach a conclusion. What we need to look out for is how their lords and masters, the politicians, handle the police findings. The vested interests in AGW of the LibLabCon is the concern. Not one of the UK potential legislators is even mentioning that maybe, just maybe, in the least, there is a need to do due diligence.
    What’s the chance of the election being called before the investigation is completed?

  170. Stephen Brown (14:49:05) :
    The majority of the comments here display a basic misunderstanding of how policing in England works.
    Reply:
    Thank you Mr. Brown. One of the thing I like most about WUWT is that there is usually someone around with concrete knowledge and they are willing to correct false assumptions.

  171. Roger-
    I think the British will tell what happened. They told what happened with the polonium. They made things very hot for the Russians.
    I think the British will tell who victimized their scientists.
    I am hopeful that new technologies like “carbon capture” will help solve this problem.
    I think that people should read what the CRU scientists said their e-mails meant. I am going to reserve judgement until the scientific investigation is released.
    Also, if you read the Chinese and Russian government spokesmen, even they seem to believe that there is warming. They just don’t want to pay a lot of money to solve the problem. They want to develop their industries.
    They do have smart scientists, however, who could help.
    I think these hackers picked materials that would appear incriminating when taken out of context. In Russia this is called kompromat.

  172. Snapple (08:48:12) :
    Stealing computer information is a serious crime.

    “Roaches blame light switch operators in warehouse food heist”
    The CRU’s opponents should argue with scientific arguments. Threatening scientists is a serious crime. The FBI is investigating threats against scientists.
    Did you make a similar fuss when Tim Ball was getting death threats for his skeptical views?

  173. Stop getting your knickers in a twist – you are turning into conspiracy theorists! I seem to remember the Information Commissioner being quite good on ID cards and internet data protection. Look him up if you can be bothered. His office promotes transparency and has quite a lot to do with the Freedom of Information Act.
    On the face of it, somebody hacking or leaking e-mails is being quite naughty. If I did that at work (I work for a mid sized international company) I would be in trouble. I guess the real question is, does the UK public sector have a whistleblowing procedure? My company does, so if I felt something fishy was going on and I had no redress via my line manager or HR, I would have an officially sanctioned way of taking the moral high ground. I don’t know whether CRU scientists have that route.
    It is possible that the National Extremism Wotsit (ridiculous name but probably well used to dealing with hackers) and the Info Commissioner will decide that a whistleblowing policy should be available to those who feel that the science has become more politilcally than data driven.
    We shall see.

  174. Craigo (16:30:02) :
    You’ve read some of the emails and sensed the attitudes of the players. Now imagine you are a UK policeman doing your job sent to investigate this issue….
    Reply:
    ROTFLMAO As a lowly female with a BS in Chemistry I worked at an independent lab full of arrogant Phd’s who couldn’t find the door without a map but always insisted they were right no matter what the subject.
    I think CRU may be in for a world of hurt. No wonder they got Jones out of there fast. I would really like to be a fly on the wall for some of those interviews….

  175. Capn Jack (23:05:07) :
    “….But the big Issues and main issues are.
    Is the AGW movement corrupt. Has science been corrupted for political and perhaps malevolent purposes.
    Side issues are side issues.
    Haven’t we got a big enough conspiracy without blackballing the Plods and the E-Spooks.
    The dice roll.

    I think the main concern by most people around the global is a politically motivated cover-up. The big politicians are all pro-AGW so there is justifiable fear that the rank and file police will be compromised especially when a high level elite group not subject to FOI is brought in. We do not even have the media around to help keep the politicians (and police) honest.
    In my town the police are known to be dishonest. A neighbor, who is a forester, stumbled across evidence and had to bring in the national drug enforcement people to clean up the drug dealing. He is now pulled over and ticketed every time he tries to drive into town so he shops in the next county over.
    The drug bust happened a couple of fields over from my house and was a sight to see. Helicopters and cop cars everywhere on a back country dirt road. I am very glad to see that three of the five drug pushers on the street are finally in jail.

  176. Patrick Davis (04:09:39) :
    Al has enough money and influence to make sure the “legal” system judges in his favour. It’s good to see you use the word “legal” rather than “justice”. There is no justice system anywhere in Australia, New Zealand nor the UK. Got money? No worries!
    Reply:
    You forgot the US of A. The O J Simpson and the Ted Kennedy trials come to mind.

  177. Alexej Buergin (04:52:13) :
    “…England used to send certain people to Australia, and Smokey wants to send Mann even a bit further to New Zealand. This way he can ride a cable car, look at Thorndon and Kelburn, and learn about how not to measure temperature.”
    Nah, Lets send Mann and al Gore to the Artic to play with the polar bears. I am sure the bears would be delighted , a nice change from seal…

  178. Frankly, as a British subject (not ‘citizen’, this is a monarchy you know), it grieves me to see what a barbarian dictatorship the UK has become. Heck, we practically invented western-style democracy… so sad that we’ve thrown it away. Between the socialists on one side and the religious on the other, there’s not much fun left to be had as a rational intellectual person.
    Watch out U.S.A. – once they’ve subjugated the British Lion, you’ll be the next in line. Look after your precious Constitution; you’ll be needing it soon.

  179. Snapple (07:16:14) :
    “…Do you really want to attack the CRU scientists when you don’t understand what the e-mails are talking about?”
    REPLY:
    You are sending this junk to the wrong people. I suggest you look at this analysis as one example before you claim “you don’t understand what the e-mails are talking about?”
    http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/11420
    or this:
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/12/understanding_climategates_hid.html
    As far as the KGB goes, according to an April 1994 article in the Wall Street Journal I read, the KGB not only funded but lead the USA activist groups. These are the groups pushing AGW, Animal Rights etc. or as some call them Watermelons, green on the outside red on the inside.
    Maurice Strong the originator of all this AGW/green stuff was an admirer of the USSR and a frequent visitor. So sorry your suggestion just does not make much sense.

  180. Veronica (09:21:52) : “I guess the real question is, does the UK public sector have a whistleblowing procedure? My company does, so if I felt something fishy was going on and I had no redress via my line manager or HR, I would have an officially sanctioned way of taking the moral high ground. I don’t know whether CRU scientists have that route.”
    I get the impression that CRU is part of the UEA. Universities are not public sector; they are private sector, albeit subject to a lot of government regulations (eg. what fees they are allowed to charge students).
    Generally, universities have tended to be bastions of academic freedom; unfortunately (well-kept secret, this!) there are really only two universities in England: the rest, including UEA, can’t really be trusted not to be politicised.

  181. Snapple
    “Russian media sounds a lot like the “denialist” bloggers. You might want to think about why that is the case.”
    With every passing month more and more of the world is going to sound to you like denialist bloggers. You might want to think about why that is the case.

  182. Snapple (09:11:45) :
    I think the British will tell what happened. They told what happened with the polonium. They made things very hot for the Russians.
    I think the British will tell who victimized their scientists.
    [Wrong – the “Russians” merely placed in public what the “scientists” were hiding from the FOIA requests – the “legal arm of their own government in other words. The files were labeled and sorted (until released by the whistle-blower or by accident) BY the “scientists” and their computer people to HIDE the emails. “We” are the victims here, not the scheming “scientists” who are trying to hide their deceit.]
    I am hopeful that new technologies like “carbon capture” will help solve this problem.
    [Carbon capture is a waste of time, money, resources, steel and energy and effort that can be used to solve real problems, not waste energy burying plant food (er, high-pressure gasses) underground in extremely expensive high-pressure leaking non-enclosures of broken rock and faults.]
    I think that people should read what the CRU scientists said their e-mails meant. I am going to reserve judgement until the scientific investigation is released.
    [We know what the emails and programs did, referred to , and when they were written – and the programs are even more damning as evidence of fraud and deceit – and your claiming that the emails are being read or “were taken out of context” is a flatout lie and distortion. We do not need to “reserve judgment” in this matter, because we have seen the facts, and particularly when the “judges” are biased and pro-government money. If I witness a car running into the side of a moving train, do I need an accident investigation to tell me what happened and that it was the train’s fault that the car didn’t stop?]
    Also, if you read the Chinese and Russian government spokesmen, even they seem to believe that there is warming. They just don’t want to pay a lot of money to solve the problem. They want to develop their industries.
    [“Government” spokesmen in Russia and China do want the global warming money, but not the economic and food disruptions and havoc CAUSED by the frenetic anti-capitalist AGW fervor now running their American and European and UK (includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.) ]
    They do have smart scientists, however, who could help.
    I think these hackers picked materials that would appear incriminating when taken out of context. In Russia this is called kompromat.
    [Now that Reagan and Thatcher destroyed the communistic-led Soviet Union, their press and the press in Eastern Europe is free of such distortions and propaganda – thus, THEY (the Russian press) are a reliable source of non-communistic propaganda. However, the “western” press IS dominated 96% by liberal-socialist-democrat party hacks who DO not only tolerate communist and socialist propaganda, but deliberately promote communist and Euro-socialist propaganda, and who seek to revoke the “free press” of those who ARE trying to expose the hoax of global warming.]

  183. Re: Snapple (08:48:12) :
    Here is an article I wrote about FSB and Tomsk hackers. This was about a week before the British papers wrote about the possibility that the FSB was behind this.

    What Tomsk hackers? You seem to be confusing files left on an open FTP server with Russian’s involvement in hi-tech crime. Why would Russian hackers implicate Russian people or systems when there are so many other places they could have dropped the file to divert attention? Presumably you also missed the comments from the FSB and Russia complaining about idiots attempts to blame them. This could I suppose be some elaborate double bluff to distract, but equally Occams Razor could apply and the simplest explanation is the truth. It was a leak.
    Why look for some shadowy international conspiracy, when pretty much all the money and benefit is on the warming side. Based on track record, Russian criminals would love the idea of carbon trading because of the easy fraud potential.

  184. Snapple, I happen to know someone who knows very well what is in those emails. Melting permafrost? Do you actually believe this has never happened in the history of the earth? As phlogiston pointed out more and more people are figuring out what has been going on. None of this has anything at all to do with the Russians, except as a data hub through which the emails were routed. Smoke and mirrors.

  185. Not sure that Universities are private sector – at least they weren’t when I was there but that was a while ago (before tuition fees). Government funded, apart from Buckingham. All the staff, basically public sector.

  186. Snapple (08:34:43) :
    The Russian FSB claims they investigated the hacking and that the Chinese did it. The British investigators have not said who it was.
    —-
    Reply: Sorry, Snapple… from what I can tell and others have examined at length, it doesn’t appear it was an “outside” job. It has the tell-tale signs of being an inside job by some whistleblower(s). That it might have been facilitated with Russian and/or Chinese help may not be in question, either (Hey, a BBC guy got some of it a month before anybody else but didn’t do a thing with it, which is strange that he got it at all considering the Beeb’s staunch support of AGW), but my gut feeling is that it was an internal whistleblower that couldn’t stomach the deceit and perfidy of the leading players.
    There may also have been a personal grudge involved, which wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Top scientists are like top models, top athletes, or top politicians–they all think they’re God’s gift to man when in reality they are quite often the reverse.
    But we shall see. I expect to see ALL of the information at all the AGW study centers opened from top to bottom–all the emails, documents, computer code, databases, etc. You name it–it should be made public knowledge and accessible by all. Otherwise, don’t even think of basing global policy on something hidden, perhaps dark and mysterious, or whatever excuse they give it.

  187. @Stephen Brown (14:49:05) :
    “Simply by referring this matter to the NETCU gives the Norfolk Constabulary access to much more intelligence and investigative powers than they would normally have.”
    False – they have no more powers than Norfolk Constabulary.
    Also, you’re confusing NETCU – whose role is ‘Prevention’ and NDET – whose role is ‘Enforcement’, they are separate units, although both are within the NCDE/NDEU structure, there’s also the third piece of the PIE – ‘Intelligence’, which is the task of the NPOIU.

  188. Snapple:
    I don’t think it was the Chinese because they openly say that all their great historical eras coincide with warming. The Chinese have never said they want to do much to curb warming. Why should they mount a big operation?

    In order to make it easier for them and others to object to going along with Copenhagen, which they saw as counterproductive and wasteful.

  189. Richard Saumarez (13:13:35) :
    “grind slowly but they do grind small. If there has been a leak, they will find the leaker and charge him if there has been a crime. ”
    Or ask Russia to extradite him

  190. Snapple (08:34:43) :
    “The official Russian view is that AGW is a fact but that they will deal with it by adapting. They are not sure of how bad the consequences will be for Russia. They like to put a smiley face on this problem”
    They are not smiling, they are laughing (on the way to the bank, cashing their carbon credits).
    Warmist peer reviewed methodology is taken from Lewis Carroll:
    ” I have said it thrice: What i tell you three times is true.” (The Hunting of the Snark)

  191. “Domestic extremist campaigns rarely cause a danger to life, but in some cases the aim is to create a climate of fear.”
    If climategate provides evidence that the CRU had, but in some cases the aim to create a climate of fear, then they are guilty.
    If climategate provides evidence that the CRU had, indirectly caused a danger to life, or loss of, then they are guilty. Think of the deaths directly from the food to fuel biofuels scam.
    In my view, the Norfolk Police are investigating the CRU, not a petty email theif. The stolen email did not cost trillions of dollars, and ? lives.

  192. I believe they have ruled out the typical basement hacker but not necessarily a “Mission Impossible” style professional intrusion team with months to let their mice run through the system.

  193. These emails, including the computer code that created the “hockey stick” graph should of been in the public domain anyway and if they do find me guilty of this “hacking” offence of placing these into the public domain then I will use prior convictions by similar (and worse) offences that have resulted in barely a slap on the wrist.
    This PO(litical)-LICE witch hunt unit has been set up and mandated by the fools in power who require heads to roll…. Will cost us, the taxpayer, millions and for what? The horse has bolted. Save energy. Sack these parasites! Get people in power who will end this Faustian madness.
    Its time for the Gubmint to make cuts in unnecessary “authorities” do you not think? The citizens need to repay the National debt before any of this NWO garbage.
    …and they call the BNP “fascists”.

  194. >>Bureaucratic gobbly-de-gook, version 1.1
    Not exactly gobble-de-gook.
    In the UK, if you happen to say that you don’t like XXX religion or XXX lifestyle, you will find yourself in clink quicker than any murderer or rapist.
    .

  195. Philip T. Downman (8/1/10, 12:49:33) wrote ‘I thought Englishmen at once wrote to their MP about their concerns’.
    I did write to my MP about my concerns, in November, soon after the story broke. I got an immediate and full reply, with the MP saying that he ‘shared my concerns’, and was one of the few MPs who had voted against the Climate Change Act at its second and third readings. I had not followed the voting, since I had pretty much despaired of anything that our political and thinking classes had to say about climate change. However, I was much encouraged by this, and wrote back to my MP to offer my (humble) congratulations.
    My MP forwarded my list of concerns to the Vice Chancellor of the UEA. The Vice Chancellor replied to both my MP and myself (I imagine there were quite a lot of similar letters going out of the Vice Chancellor’s office at the time). It interested me that the first concern expressed in the letter was the illegality of the access to the emails, and the steps that were being taken to investigate this – ‘substantial resources from the Norfolk Constabulary are being brought to bear’. The second point of the letter concerned the establishment of an independent inquiry to ‘test the integrity of the data held and used by the CRU’. This review is to be led by Sir Muir Russell, previously Vice Chancellor of Glasgow University. UEA has asked that the review be completed by Spring 2010. The third point of the letter concerns how the CRU can justify its commitment to academic transparency. The fourth concerns restoring confidence in the CRU and its handling of data.
    Forgive me if this has already been gone over on this blog. I thought it was at least worth noting that some MPs answer constituents’ letters, and some MPs are not part of the AGW media mob.
    On this last point, it seems to me that the opinion polls are shifting relentlessly towards scepticism. There will come a point, I suspect, when opposition to the AGW argument (with all its attendant and pointless expenses) will become an electoral asset. The political classes are mostly heavily implicated in the pro-AGW argument, but they tend to be more concerned with being re-elected than with the climate (whatever it is doing), and if it starts to look as though climate skepticism wins votes, then things might change quite quickly. We are due an election in the UK soon, probably in May. I don’t think there is time for any dramatic changes on this front before that election, but I might be wrong. I hope I am.

  196. Excuse my use of any language you felt was too coarse. This is your website and I respect your right to decide what is acceptable.
    I’m certainly glad I reconsidered using other terms, which most would consider some of the most vulgar expletives. The subject matter angers me so much, I have to work to restrain myself.

  197. There is no one to write to in England in authority (scientific or political) who is not fully committed to AGW. I wrote to the PM (Gordon Brown, who had previously saved the World) and he got his Department of Energy and Climate Change to address my concerns.
    Hilary Cartwright-Taylor (Customer Contact Unit at DECC) kindly replied on behalf of Gordon expaining that as can be seen in any textbook on radiative transfer, there are parts of the spectrum where carbon dioxide is a more effective absorber than water vapour. This is especially the case in the spectral band 12 to 18 microns as this includes the peak emission of the Earth’s emission spectrum.
    I genuinely wanted to know where I was going wrong in my scientific thinking why so many eminent thinkers and scientists are convinced that resolute action must be taken to curb catastrophic global warming due to CO2. So I asked Hilary Cartwright-Taylor why Wien’s law shows that the peak emission for a wavelength of 15 microns is minus 80 C ( 12 microns minus 33 C and 18 microns minus 113 C); whilst 15 C gives a maximal emission wavelength of 10 microns.
    I also pointed out that CO2 absorbs infrared emissions from the Earth’s surface only minimally in the range 7 to 13 microns and that it is within this range where the greatest proportion of radiation emitted by the Earth is found. This range is called ‘open window radiation’ because it is here that the least amount of absorption by water vapour and CO2 takes place. This window allows 70 to 90% of the radiation from Earth to escape into space.
    I am still waiting for a reply on these points from the DECC.

  198. R. Craigen (13:15:42) :
    Are the alarmists now upgraded to terrorist status?
    I have wanted to visit Norfolk for years but I’m afraid someone might mistake me for a tour-orist.
    ———————————————————
    Climate sabatouer – says MY minister of state – Milliband
    flat earther, anti science – says MY prime minister
    sabatouer – a ver small step from terrorist – linguistically
    Guardian (UK)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/03/ed-miliband-attack-tory-climate-saboteurs
    !”…….The climate change secretary, Ed Miliband, launched a ferocious attack on Conservative politicians who have cast doubt on the science of climate change in the run-up to the global UN summit in Copenhagen.
    He said the former chancellor Nigel Lawson and former shadow home secretary David Davis were irresponsible and were acting as “saboteurs”.
    Miliband’s comments follow articles from both men in the wake of the publication of emails hacked from the University of East Anglia’s Climate research unit (CRU), which sceptics claim reveal wrongdoing by prominent climate scientists.
    “It is profoundly irresponsible for people like Nigel Lawson, who has held high office, and David Davis to be doing what they are doing. It is very dangerous. People sabotaging the [Copenhagen] process deserve the name saboteur,” Miliband said. “There are interests who do not want an agreement at Copenhagen. Anyone who comes forward at this moment and starts saying ‘we can stick our heads in the sand’ is irresponsible.”
    Davis wrote in the Independent that the Earth appeared to be cooling, not warming, and that the leaked emails seemed to show leading scientists “conspiring to rig the figures to support their theories”.
    But this was dismissed by Miliband. “This is scientific consensus from around the world. It’s as universal a view as you can get. One chain of emails does not undo scientific consensus.”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6729833/Gordon-Brown-climate-change-sceptics-are-flat-earthers.html
    Gordon Brown: climate-change sceptics are ‘flat-earthers’
    People who doubt that human activity contributes to global warming are “flat-earthers” and “anti-science”, Gordon Brown has said

  199. I am a skeptic, does that give me the right to call Gordon Brown an uneducated idiot ? or will the Norfolk police throw me off the edge of the world ?
    Glad to be a member of the flat earth society, it looks like when the earth tilts England will be the closest to the edge.

  200. Merrick (17:57:40) :
    I’m going to suggest that there’s a subtle reason this group has been brought in to perform the investigation. From Wikipedia:
    “The National Extremism Tactical Co-ordination Unit (NETCU) is a British police organization funded by, and reporting to, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) that coordinates police action against groups in the United Kingdom it describes as extremist. As of April 2007, it was headed by Superintendent Steve Pearl.[1] ******Because the ACPO is not a public body but rather a private limited company, NETCU is exempt from freedom of information laws and other kinds of public accountability******, even though they are funded by the Home Office and deploy police officers from regional forces.”

    If Home Office funds and the unit is in service of the public – there is reason to expect FOI to apply. Had they not accepted public funds it would be another story. Demand Home Office appoint a public liaison to detail the investigation’s progress.
    Meanwhile the British public tide continues to turn:
    http://xrl.in/47up
    http://xrl.in/47uq
    http://xrl.in/47ur
    Maybe in part because cooling is costing:
    http://xrl.in/47uu

  201. Apart from the ‘Domestic Extremism’ group, that’s an absolutely standard response, since the police cannot say anything which might prejudice any future trial.
    The ‘Domestic Extremism Group’ probably check out those who think its rather a good idea to not go around killing Iraqis without a good reason.
    I’m sure you Americans would welcome Brits who think that murdering foreigners isn’t something which should be entered into lightly.
    Seeing as how you’re foreigners too.
    Whether that describes gung-ho arch-right-wing military types as ‘unamerican’ is something I guess is best left to US domestic politics…..
    Since the expression ‘domestic’ in the UK refers to a marital fist-fight…….

  202. @ Purakanui (23:23:47) :
    I’m inclined to believe that it might be Keith Briffa, for all the reasons that have been listed above. He has faced some difficult circumstances in his personal life, by all accounts, such as his own health and the loss of his mother. In my experience, these focus the mind with considerable clarity. Certainly, the emails show that he was not always comfortable with what was being asked of him and he might well have had enough.
    If it was you, Keith, then you are an honourable man.
    =======================================
    I agree. My money is on Keith Briffa. Towards the end you can sense his impatience and anger at Mann in particular.
    But why would he try to upload to RC first, knowing that it wouldn’t go through? That’s what I don’t get and it makes me wonder if it was someone else.

  203. Hmm… this reminds me:
    If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
    Now the corollaries:
    When you’re a “climate scientist”, every weather event looks like climate change.
    When you’re an expert in “Soviet / Russian” studies, everything looks like it has Soviet involvement.
    See where I’m going with this?
    When you truly believe in something, all evidence to the contrary looks like “hate” and an “attack” on your belief. Examples of this include religion and politics, so I won’t go there, but also belief in certain contentious scientific theory, sexual orientation, favorite color, preferred treatment for various diseases, etc.
    We’re all biased, anyone who claims they are not is either lying or blind to their bias. It usually takes a lot of evidence to sway someone from one belief system to another, and anyone who has joined a religion or switched religions can tell you it’s a life changing experience.
    From previous threads at WUWT, I can say with reasonable certainty that the majority of us regular commenters used to believe in the AGW hypothesis. From my own experience I can say with certainty that I prefer this side of the debate. It’s far more amusing to watch all of the political careers being destroyed (they just don’t know it yet), the incredible WASTE in the name of “preventing waste”, and the naive optimism of those who believe windmills and solar panels can possibly drive our technology.
    The blind, absolute obedience to the party line evidenced by “warmists” is more entertaining than anything I could have imagined just a few years back. I can almost trace back the hateful invective spewed at me by various of the faithful (when I attempt to educate them on reality) to al-Gore, or Pachauri, or M. Strong… they pull the strings, the warmists dance. It’s awe-inspiring.
    I’ve always said (since first commenting here, but also before WUWT existed) that in the years to come, people will feel shame about this portion of their lives… the same shame some feel about Disco, pet rocks, AMC Pacers, mood rings, 80s hair styles, Jimmy Carter… well, ALL the incredibly useless and crappy stuff that used to be “in”. And I’m having a blast watching it.

  204. Do we have anybody in the zone who has experience in raising funds to defend, protect and support the supposed whistleblower, should the ‘national domestic extremism team’ come up with a body? I would hope a Nobel prize eventually will solve the problem, but in the short term there may be requirements. Any thoughts?

  205. Yes Malcolm, this is something worth thinking about. The petition I hope most of those that contribute to these pages should at least be signatories of the e-petition that exists now. The list is fascinating and needs more publicity.
    Despite the ‘science’ there are a lot of people out there and stands at 2864, it would be a start if this could at least be added to.
    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/UEACRU/
    “We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to suspend the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia from preparation of any Government Climate Statistics until the various allegations have been fully investigated by an independent body.”
    Submitted by Mike Haseler – Deadline to sign up by: 24 February 2010 – Signatures: 2,875
    —————————————————————–
    The media waits and wants educating. The whistleblower has in theory some protection, a hacker – none. If I am stating the blindingly obvious, it is that a wind change in public opinion, of perception is beginning. The facts stand for themselves, the lack of access to the facts (just like Dr Kelly) means that untampered and unsullied work will reveal in time what distortions and manipulation we are subjected to.

  206. Well, it seems to me that contributors to this blog have, since the climategate revelations, had a taste of what it feels like to be labelled a ‘conspiracy theorist’.
    I mean, the way the media has handled – and continues to handle – the whole story makes me think this will ‘wake up’ a lot of people to how the public’s perceptions – on various issues – are intricately controlled by the global media corporations (including the BBC – a master of the art).
    So everyone here knows, then, that TPTB – whoever they may be be – do with regard to climate::
    a) Tell lies through biased media coverage
    b) fund fraudulent science.
    c) can buy out the whole scientific establishment
    d) have many full-time wikipedia editors, or at least some very hard working ones
    e) have strong links to the odious ‘Club of Rome’
    When you realise, when you KNOW that there are things that they do, which you didn’t think they’d do. When you see that a majority of people believe the BS they are fed through the media; see their presentation as the real world whereas you live in some kind of nut-case, cloud-cuckoo conspiracy land. When you research the money trail…. Well, it always goes to the same place.
    So, if this is just what happens with climate: what about all the other stuff that goes on? Pandemics, terrorism, global financial crisis, etc, etc….
    If they can be shown to have carefully planned and constructed the ‘climate crisis’ and continue to ‘support it’, what else are they responsible for? And what else have they got in mind?
    Where will it all end? I mean, I don’t want to end up in a climate gulag, but I don’t want to live on my knees either.
    People lose sight of the fact that history can repeat itself. And they’ve got all the tools at their disposal now to identify enemies of the planet through surveillance of email, text, phone, etc. ANPR. With legislation in the pipeline to make it all de-facto – you have no secrets, the state knows everything about you. Great, eh?
    What happens if you turn into someone that the state has reason to be concerned about – i.e. a ‘domestic extremist’? Through no fault of your own, just say, because you’ve got a thermometer in your back garden…

  207. Nigel S (18:49:24) :
    JoePapp (16:06:13)
    ‘The BAOR base in Bielefeld (and possibly elsewhere in Germany, I only saw them in Bielefeld) was guarded in the 1960’s by elderly Polish men in blue overcoats who had decided to remain in W. Germany after WW2 rather than return home because of the threat of persecution and possibly death. Life is complicated isn’t it?’
    Sorry this is late but it has been on my mind, having seen both West and East Germany in the 60’s (the Potsdamer Platz and the goose-stepping guards made a lasting impression).
    First they were elderly Yougoslavs not Poles who could not go home (see above and possibly below).
    Second Joe Papp was, I think, confusing ‘Operation Keelhaul’ (after Yalta) with the Katyn massacre during WW2. The Soviet Union bears a heavy reponsibility for both but neither Britain nor USA comes out well from ‘Keelhaul’. I think the Wiki description is fairly accurate (I know!).

  208. Uvazhayemiy Tovarisch Snapple
    Nichevo sebya! Tvoi paranoia pro Rossiya – ochen smeshnoye! Dlya Zapadniye Yevropeiskixh strani i Amerika nye nada nikakoi pomosch iz Rossiya dlya svoi liubimiy sport – politichesko korrektno samo-nenavist i samo-rasrusheniye. Na-oborot – nam nada prosto smotret na etot ochen interesnii spectakl.

  209. If you really spoke Russian, you would not use the familiar tvoi. Also, since the noun is paranoiya, you would not use the masculine tvoi.
    You would write “vasha” paranoiya.
    The NETCU has written that they have “good background knowledge of climate change issues, in relation to criminal investigations.”
    I wonder if this means that they have been monitoring the criminal/s.

  210. *The NETCU has written that they have “good background knowledge of climate change issues, in relation to criminal investigations.*
    What criminals?
    The only law broken is the data protection act. Considering nobody got hurt, lost money or was killed. The UK police can (supposedly) force us to give away our details unwillingly and call it legal! (Legal does not mean lawful though).
    Belief or denial that rails against the Government wishes is not a unlawful… Yet! Give Brown the chance and it will be so. If it’s according to fascist doctrine (as it is), then it must be a fascist inspired act from a fascist inspired Government..
    At the end of the day everything should of been on an open server for peer/public review anyway. The Governments are lashing out with some obscene little quango. A private company at that. Some responsible member of the public has released the documents and spoilt their plans for international theft err, taxation. Whats the problem apart from the only people who should be on trial are those in power?

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