The Australian ETS vote: a political litmus test for cap and trade

Many here in the USA got their first inkling of the extraordinary events going on in Australia with the vote that was supposed to happen in parliament on Friday over “ETS” or Emissions Trading Scheme, with this WUWT post:

Ripples of Climategate? Liberal MP’s desert Turnbull in Australia over emissions trading scheme

On Friday, 12 Liberal members of parliament resigned their frontbench positions rather than be forced into a party line vote for ETS. That is quite a statement. The MP’s are hearing from their constituents in large numbers. From ABC news in Australia, this snippet:

“The phone lines have been in meltdown with people saying that the Liberal Party would not be doing its job as an Opposition simply to pass this thing without the scrutiny that people calling my office think it demands,” he [MP Tony Abbott] said.

Here’s a YouTube video being circulated in Australia:

When I ran my story Ripples of Climategate? on Thursday, I suggested that Climategate was being heard by the people of Australia, but I got a number of comments from people in Australia who posted on WUWT saying that they aren’t hearing about it in the mainstream media there.

Andrew Bolt, columnist and blogger for the Herald Sun, answered my query today on what is happening with ETS as it relates to “Climategate”:

From: Bolt, Andrew

Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 5:07 PM

To: Anthony Watts – mobile

Subject: RE: Climategate in Australia

Several MPs have indeed mentioned the emails in their party room speeches, and your correspondents miss the way MPs actually pick up things.

Yes, it’s true that the emails have not yet had quite the coverage they deserve. That said, my column appears in the biggest selling paper. My blog is the biggest political one in the country, and I suspect is read or at least occasionally checked by most Liberal MPs.

I’ve talked about Climategate on radio stations in four states, including the highest-rating AM shows in Sydney and Melbourne. Some talkback shows have flogged the issue, particularly in Brisbane and Sydney. Readers of the blog and other sources, or listeners to Sydney talkback in particular, have bombarded their MPs with emails mentioning it. I’ve debated it on the ABC (your BBC) on its flagship late-night political show, watched by many politicians.   And still that doesn’t cover it all.

Many MPs have been scared to challenge a “consensus”, fearing they may not just be outgunned but simply wrong. The emails give some extra confidence. I doubt more than a handful at best would not know of them, and no sceptic would not be emboldened by them.

In all this, however, many other factors are at play, including an assessment of the merits of the emissions trading bill, the wisdom of passing it now, the terrible leadership of Malcolm Turnbull and more.  

Andrew Bolt

heraldsun.com.au/andrewbolt

It would seem, the people and their representatives are bypassing the MSM in favor of  the Internet and Talk Radio.

The ETS vote has been delayed until Monday, and there may well be a leadership “spill” before the vote. If ETS fails in Australia, it will the first eco-political casualty affected in part by Climategate.

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Roger Knights

That video shows how an effective ad can be created with no fancy effects whatsoever (except a soundtrack). However, the fast-flash text-review towards the end goes by too fast.

Leon Brozyna

The political groundswell in opposition to the political travesty of AGW-related measures is still mostly hidden and silent. Just look at how many days it was before Drudge picked up on it and starting running links to the stories. For many folks that only occasionally catch the news, usually from the main broadcast media, they still don’t know there’s such a thing as climategate and haven’t a clue as to the meaning of, “hide the decline.” The issue still needs to be pressed on all venues till no one dares ignore it.

Keith Minto

I believe that Labor only needs 7 votes for this to pass on Monday and be enacted in the middle of 2011 ! so there is need to hurry with this legislation at all, except to enhance the prestige of Kevin Rudd prior to Copenhagen and perhaps capture public opinion before the mood changes. But it is already changing and very rapidly.
This is proving to be a very interesting weekend.

Using that much bandwidth for a bit of text does diminish the credibility somewhat. However, I agree that we are in a serious recession – the escalating recession that’s been going on for the last 200 years. I will never be able to afford even a fraction of what my grandparents took for granted. That probably won’t change as long as we keep talking about the weather.

Patrick Davis

It’s a little dramatic, but no way as bad at the “black baloons” popping out of electical appliances and floating up in to the sky ads (Which doesn’t seem to be screened anymore).
It is also important to note that the Aussie ETS has origins, which started about 10 years ago, in the Liberal party. So I don’t value any of this.
All the same, Turnbull is an childish idiot in on the carbon scam (It’s actually called a “carbon” problem here in Australia in the MSM) as he and his chums stand to make lots of money out of a CPRS (ETS).
Interesting that the New Zealand gummint rushed their ETS into law, just before NIWAGate.
An ETS has been in place in Europe since 2004. It’s done nothing but raise shedloads of cash and CO2 still rises.
New was the second country to introduce a scheme and Australia will soon follow I am affraid, followed by the US.

Nick Stokes

In the Australian Senate, 39 votes are needed for the ETS to pass. Labor, which has proposed it, has 32. The Greens have 5, and although they are threatening to oppose because it does not go far enough, they will likely vote for it when the crunch comes. The Liberals have 32, and under Turnbull’s leadership would nominally support it, so even with defections it would have pass easily. To block it, in the present torrid circumstances, they have to act with remarkable unanimity.
But voting to block the ETS for a lot of them is suicidal. For then Rudd could call for a double dissolution election, with all seats in both Houses being vacated. Reuters:

The latest opinion polls show Rudd would easily win an election with an increased majority. The Reuters Poll Trend on Tuesday found Rudd had a 10.9 percent lead, with 55.4 percent support compared to 44.6 percent for the opposition.

And that’s before the chaos of a leadership change. So it’s hard to hold the line. And if it is blocked, after the election there follows a double dissolution sitting, at which the ETS would pass easily, even if Labor does not gain control of the Senate.

Dr A Burns

Turnbull claims he’s had 850 emails with 750 supporting the ETS. (Front page SMH today) … and surprise, surprise not even a mention of ClimateGate !

Dr Kevin Trenberth,
1, “The fact is we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t.”
2, “How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!
‘Experts’ have enthusiastically promoted a message of impending climate disaster. But when Kevin Trenberth admits that he can’t explain what is going on, we should thank him for his candor, put aside the message, defer planned legislation, cancel international meetings and look more closely at the causes of climate change.

Its full on here this weekend – the media coverage is simply what suits vested interests and not the people – the good thing is people are now talking and asking questions with many saying what is going on! We have the Nationals and a large part of the liberals now standing up. There are many in Labor who support the cause but to speak out could mean they resign from their party. If we could get a bipartisan approach to this and knock it well and truly on the head it would be brilliant.
As well as Andrew some great sites for people to go to;
Joanne Nova – great comment
http://joannenova.com.au/
Barnaby Joyce – petition against ETS
http://www.barnabyjoyce.com.au/
2GB – great radio interviews by Alan Jones
http://www.2gb.com/index.php?option=com_homepage&id=1&Itemid=44
Online petition to Senators against ETS
http://listentous.org.au/

Rick Sharp

Should be an interesting weekend for you folks down under. Hopefully the time will works in your favor as more pressure can be put on the fence sitters.

Julian in Wales

This is so extraordinary – this time last week the news about CRU was just breaking on the internet. Today there are over 10 million websites carrying your word (climategate) and the story of malpractice at CRU (an almost unknown institution one week ago) is changing the political landscape across the world and beginning to show signs of overshadowing Copenhagen. This alone is amazing.
What is also amazing is that this has happened against a backdrop of years of shrill opposition to the story being given oxygen by the MSM and the main science publications, who are mostly ignoring the scandal or putting out inaccurate accounts that downplay the significance of the publication of the analysis of the released files published daily of WUWT and CA, in fact here in the UK the no 1 item on the news last night was that Copenhagen is going to be a big success because the politicians are pledging themselves in ever greater numbers to the cause of saving the world from the scourge of rising world temperatures and sea levels. The search engines such as Google are also doing their best to smother the story on their news pages.
They say one person cannot change history, but Steve and you have seemingly done that. I, on the other side of the world, a nobody in science, have watched this change being played out in real time on my computer and I can even add my messages to your personal forums where the threads remain relatively manageable lengths of 1- 300 messages per day. A lot of things that have happened on the internet are bad, but what you have done is good for humanity and you both deserve thanks from millions of people who are benefitting from what you are achieving from your homes. Congratulations.

Keith Minto

It is the speed of change that is surprising and it has caught the Politicians by surprise. There has been a really strong grass roots movement since last friday by the public to let their local member know that they are ill-informed about this Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme and want it delayed. Turnbull (Liberal) has nailed his colors to the mast in promoting passage of the CPRS, he sees it as modern, progressive and preparing Australia for the future. There is a lot of rapid learning going on out there.
Reminds me of Dylan,
“There’s somethin’ goin’ on but you don’t know what it is, do you, mister Jones”

W Brown

My reading of it is that passing or defeat of the Australian Emissions Trading Scheme is on a knife edge right now and all will be decided on Monday or Tuesday next week.
They left it very late and it has been much ado about simple politics until the last hours. With political fears about the public swallowing of the usual alarmist views (‘science is settled’ and so on) it was me-tooism rather than suffer some political defeat at the polls until the last minute. Not only has a rural based small party been totally opposed all along (and Greens opposed because it didnt go far enough) the true climate realists have revolted and given up everything rather that go along with it. They have been allied to those who simply cannot face tearing into the largest export industry (and provider of 84% of all Australia’s energy) – coal. It has been aided by an unprecedented uprising of public protest to every single party representative demanding a vote against the measure.
There are true believers and only seven votes from the opposition are needed to have it passed next week. Seven true believers to vote on Monday before the Believer-in-Chief, the opposition leader, faces a pary room move to oust him on Tuesday morning.

Greg

Consensus never means anything in Science, people had Consensus when the earth was flat, but the skeptic turned it around.
Ian Plimer is worth having a listen too, he’s the only sane one left in Australia with Andrew Bolt!!
http://files.me.com/donaldc/f6egi9.mp3

MikeO

I am Australian and yes ClimateGate has not been focused on here. Our ABC is pumping the warmist line. In recent times we have been told sea level will rise 1.1 metres. Antartica is melting and that we must get down to 1 ton of emissions each per year by the experts that know! Totally barking mad we generate about 1.2% of emissions or so we guess. Probably if we closed the country down and all left the rest of the world would not notice a change. A disturbing problem is we have electricity generate with brown coal in Victoria. These four stations are the only ones privately owned and as is typical they run on debt. When the ETS passes there is reason to believe they will go into administration rapidly and then be asset stripped. This is because the value will greatly diminished and so no longer cover the debt. I am in Canberra and expect to affected with increased charges and blackouts. Our eastern seaboard and South Australia are in one grid which has about 30 Gw feeding into it, the stations in question are about 8Gw. Our ruling party knows this but have dismissed as nonsense with the statement well they knew it was coming!!! In case someone asks according to our Labor party Nuclear is sort of like raping your Mother so replacement has to be wind or solar!

Nick

Dr A Burns, I think Turbull is Labour (he’s so left at the moment), so of course he’s receiving all the Labour supporting emails, he probably is filtering out the hate mail lol 🙂

Konrad

One bit of cheering news from Australia is that Kevin Rudd (PM) has said he would not be seeking a double dissolution if the Enormous Tax Scam is not passed by the senate. I suspect our glorious leader has detected the stink coming from the CRU leak. If an early election is not threatening, the Liberals can feel safe in voting the tax down in senate. Kevin Rudd may have wanted to take enacted ETS legislation to Copenhagen but he can recover with the excuse that the US is bringing nothing. With the climategate scandal continuing to unfold I believe that Mr. Rudd knows his dreams of a quango retirement job in a UN global government funded by “climate debt” are fast fading.
Hard working moderators – if this is a double post please delete (not the emails 🙂

Gene Nemetz

“…electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket.”

Gene Nemetz

“History affords us many instances of the ruin of states, by the prosecution of measures ill suited to the temper and genius of their people.”
~~Benjamin Franklin

Mike McMillan

Could we Northern Hemisphere fans have a little background on the parties, Rudd, and Turnbull, please?
Conservative, liberal, pro/anti AGW, etc?
Thanks.

OT, but my impression is that most of the MSM coverage of late is part of a well-orchestrated campaign to build momentum for some kind of Copenhagen deal.
I am reminded of novice attorneys who prepare a closing statement in advance of trial and stick to that statement even though the evidence came out different than they had anticipated.
In the same way, most of the MSM is not mentioning Climategate because (I suspect) it’s just not part of their game plan.
A week or two ago, I would have tried to avoid sounding like I think there is a conspiracy going on, but now I really think there is an informal conspiracy in the same way that there was an informal conspiracy to refrain from publicizing JFK’s dalliances.
JMHO

SidViscous

Just thinking about the timing.
Top Gear is on this weekend, and I’m sure Jeremy Clarkson will be bouyed about the news. Wonder if he will mention it, or how he could (he’s not going to go in depth), and when will it air in Australia.
It’s just a car show, but it has more viewers than any other show. That could get some movement in Aus, if it airs in time.
C’mon Jezza, do it.

Andy

I’m not an Aussie, but from what i understand the basics are:
Minority Government
Labor Party = Kevin Rudd (PM) = pro AGW
Liberal Party = Turnbull (leader of oposition) = he is pro AGW but most of the party is anti AGW
….i think.

Greg Cavanagh

quote Keith Minto (23:20:17) “It is the speed of change that is surprising and it has caught the Politicians by surprise. ”
I believe the Australian government has always been suspect about the science of global warming. Rudd got into government on the GW issue, but has opperated very slowly toward his stated goal and with very small steps.
Secondly, most people I talk to either don’t know/care about the issue, or don’t believe it. Very few believe it. Generaly, I think people have not had confidence or a voice to put forth opinion on the science, but felt railroaded into an inevitable corner.
ET has always been a bad idea from a business and home owner point of view. Now they are emboldened to speek out and voice opposition to it.

Andy

….isn’t Top Gear filmed several months in advance? He got a brief dig in with the ‘eco-mentalists are stupid’ comment last Sunday though….good for a laff.

Mark.R

Sorry O.T but some news in out papers today.
Mr Sarkozy’s presence at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting gives it an unprecedented level of international interest and indicates concern that a hard and fast deal on cutting greenhouse gases will not be reached at a crunch United Nations summit in Copenhagen next month.
Prime Minister John Key has said he will go to Copenhagen only if there is an agreement on the table, which he believes is unlikely before next year.
Some of the heavy-hitters are in town to put the case when it comes to climate change. They’re using this as a staging post, if you like, going into Copenhagen.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/politics/3105015/Climate-talk-on-the-boil-as-Sarkozy-gatecrashes-Chogm

SamG

C’mon Anthony, do you just post anything skeptical?
‘Average income’ ? You know statistics lie. Sure the ETS is stupid but youtube clips accompanied by indie-tunes are so pre-pubescent.
Emission taxes will just widen the divide between rich and poor. Most people would will just pay up rather than stepping down a lower socio-economic rung. Poor people are simply poor; it’s a lifestyle, but some are willing to work harder for a lifestyle.
This clip is so Michael Moore but pointed in the other direction.
If people respond to three minute videos, there is something wrong with them.

>>Top Gear
>>It’s just a car show, but it has more viewers than
>>any other show. That could get some movement in
>>Aus, if it airs in time.
Pfffff !!!!!
A car show? No, no, no. Top Gear is political, social, pacifist and environmental satire at its very best. The BBC have been mystified for years as to why it is their top program in the ratings, and they still don’t understand (or don’t want to understand) that Top Gear is successful precisely because it is everything that the BBC is not.
There are not many subversive activities in the UK any more. Margaret Thatcher had to endure Spitting Image each week, but Labour have banned criticism and satire of anything and everything. Top Gear is as good as it gets nowadays, and that is why people watch it. (And that’s why the army have devoted 192 days of army training to Top Gear programs.)
.

>>>….isn’t Top Gear filmed several months in advance?
The major films are, but the show in the hangar is only filmed about a week before, to keep it topical. Climategate may be a bit too recent for this episode.
.

Arnold

I just send an message to every member of the dutch “tweede kamer”, asking there attention for the problems sinds there is almost no media who have attention overhere. I hope i dont get flocked over this by the keft wing party’s 🙂
Keep you posted.

Arnold

BTW “Tweede kamer” is our senate so to speak.
If there are more ducht people who want the email adresses. I have them at hand.

Patrick Davis

“Greg Cavanagh (00:08:33) :
Secondly, most people I talk to either don’t know/care about the issue, or don’t believe it. Very few believe it.”
Greg, I’d tend to agree with you. When you look at the laws and policies that have been passed here in Aus and in New Zealand you can see most appear to trust the pollies to do their job. Trouble is, they *ARE* doing a great job of shafting us.
Still, as long as the cricket of footy is on the telly…and there’s a cold one in the fridge…she’ll be right mate!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8383713.stm
Page last updated at 19:22 GMT, Friday, 27 November 2009
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Inquiry into stolen climate e-mails
By Roger Harrabin
Environment analyst, BBC News
Keyboard (EyeWire)
The supposed e-mails have been widely circulated on the web
Details of a university inquiry into e-mails stolen from scientists at one of the UK’s leading climate research units are likely to be made public next week.
Announcement of a chair of the inquiry and terms of reference will probably be made on Monday, a source says.
The University of East Anglia’s (UEA) press office did not confirm the date.
But a spokesperson said information about the investigation into the hack at UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) would be made public very soon.
Scientists will be scrutinising the choice of chair and the terms of reference.
One senior climate scientist told me that the chair would have to be a person accepted by both mainstream climate scientists and sceptics as a highly respected figure without strong connections to either group.
BBC News understands that senior individuals at UEA have acknowledged the potential damage to the university’s reputation from the CRU affair and are anxious to clear the institution’s name.
But there is a risk that some people will not accept the findings of any inquiry unless it is fully independent, as demanded by the former UK Chancellor Lord Lawson earlier in the week.
A petition is running on the 10 Downing Street website calling for CRU to be suspended from preparation of any government climate statistics until the allegations have been fully investigated.
Some researchers would not comment until they had seen UEA’s nominated chairman and terms of reference.
But Professor Sir John Houghton, chair of the IPCC’s first science panel, said he would not support an inquiry as many of those demanding one were biased.
Phil Willis MP said the House of Commons Science and Technology Select Committee – of which he is chair – had written to UEA asking for copies of the e-mails and an explanation. Depending on the response, the committee will decide whether to proceed further.
Professor Sir David King, the former government chief scientist, told BBC News there are three key issues:
* how did the leakage occur – was there any payment in the process?
* the alleged behaviour of the scientists indicated by the e-mails
* does this have any impact on the scientific conclusion?
If an independent inquiry encompassed all three aspects, Professor Sir David said he would support it.

Mike Mc
Labor is traditionally the working class party associated with blue collar, catholics (irish roots) unionism big government bureaucracy etc
In recent years associated with the greens
There are Labor skeptics but they cant speak out.
Nationals are the country party that most farmers vote for
Liberals are meant to be small government, small business party but Turnbull who is currently their leader is very Labor orientated and some commentators say he tried to enter the Labor party previously.
Liberal and National Parties normally form a coalition

King of Cool

Anthony, yes it will be a litmus test but please do not think that the US has a parallel situation. There are many political differences that you should be aware of. There are also some similarities.
The Liberals (Republicans?) lost the last election after 11 years in power. The main reason they lost is that their leader John Howard tried to push though some industrial legislation that the unions convinced the voters was too much too soon.
There was also a disagreement over who would take-over his party. Howard hung on too long and his worthy successor, the brilliant Peter Costello, became disillusioned and refused the poisoned chalice when his party lost the election.
There has been no real leader since so Turnbull (a small L – left leaning) egotist grabbed leadership and ever since has been trying to enforce his views.
His party who have considered themselves to be in the wilderness has gone along with just about anything that Turnbull, who keeps going down in the polls, decides until now. Now is when the Liberal core have stood up for their values and created an internet flood of protest against the ETS and everything Turnbull is doing. But he does have a number of henchmen who support him and this has split the party.
One of his supporters Joe Hockey is a popular figure who could heal wounds within the party and would probably win the vote on a leadership spill. He also has a very large and young family that could influence his decision to stand. The other contender Tony Abbott opposes any ETS but in the past has expressed some very radically conservative views that his party believe could influence his election prospects.
So, in conclusion if Turnbull wins next week the sceptics have had a major loss. If Abbott wins they have had a major victory and if Hockey contends and wins it is still a draw. In any event if the sceptics can reduce the political spin and encourage more debate it will be still be invaluable progress for the sceptic’s cause.

P Gosselin

I’d think you’d have to be awfully closed-minded not to realise there hasn’t been a consensus for years.
Thanks to Mr Bolt for his work in informing the public.

Arnold

There is maybe something at hand ate the NY times, is he making a turn or a plot ???
Andy Revkin
Dot Earth blogger, Reporter
November 27th, 2009
7:18
pmThere’s more coming soon on this question of a new “voice” on climate.
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/27/a-climate-scientist-on-climate-skeptics/

Ron de Haan

ETS and Copenhagen will turn Australia into a province of China.
There is one advantage, Rudd already speaks Chinese.

Nick Stokes

Andy (00:05:07)
Pretty much. Labor (left) is a majority government, because it has a clear majority in the House. It doesn’t control the Senate – governments here rarely do.
But remember, governments here have a big stick to wave at the Senate. If House legislation is blocked they can call an election for both houses. If they stand well in the polls, that’s very persuasive, because otherwise the Senate rotates over six years as in the US. I think Turnbull supports ETS on principle, but it’s also tactically the safer course for his party.

Charles. U. Farley

The issue of how to get the message out isnt a particularly hard one.
Flyers cost nothing to print out and trawl the local car parks pinning one to the windshield.
In the UK Billboards can be hired.
Messages such as ” Glimategate. Google it now! Read the story the main stream media isnt reporting!”
Dosent cost anything to put a flyer in the back window of your car.
You can leaflet houses. If these methods only encourage a few people to make the effort to look deeper then its worth it.
Fwd to everyone in your address book and so on.
Just because the MSM are “deniers” ( the irony huh?) dosent mean they will win the war.
Slowly slowly, catchy monkey.

P Stanbrook

It’s not only politicians in Australia that are feeling the heat. Yesterday David Cameron (leader of the UK Conservative Party) sent our a pre-Copenhagen email message to all his registered party members, and the same message is posted on his blog. Have a look at the response!
http://blog.conservatives.com/index.php/2009/11/27/the-copenhagen-summit-is-of-historic-importance/#comments

I believe that all laws passed on the basis of fraudulent evidence can be nullified. Any comments?

Peredur

These are probably the most important days in Australian politics since Federation in 1901. Amongst the many astonishing aspects to this current drama convulsing the Liberals is that their outraged constituency is showing that they are far better informed than many of the politicians. The lesson in this, utterly shocking to the ABC and primary media, is that people in vast numbers are by-passing the regular ‘news’ services for their vital information. A decade of relentless advocacy journalism and political spin doctoring has utterly infuriated a population starved for honest dialogue. The internet, like an electronic samizdat, has been a vital resource in this process of energizing a hitherto muted nation. Thanks Anthony, thanks Andrew, for your priceless effort. But a dark age is threatening to dawn and we still have work to do!

Dr A Burns

>>Nick (23:30:36) : “Dr A Burns, I think Turbull is Labour”
Nick, You can be forgiven for thinking so but he’s actually the head of the Opposition, a supposed Liberal … not that the Opposition does much opposing these days. I doubt that most of either party have heard of ClimateGate or would do anything about it if they did.
>>Greg : “Ian Plimer is worth having a listen too, he’s the only sane one left in Australia with Andrew Bolt!! ”
Greg, There are actually quite a few good men here in Oz. Bob Carter is quite sane has given many excellent presentations. There’s even a Climate Skeptics Party. I do lots of letter writing to the local rags and even scored the first and only mention of ClimateGate.

Richard

In the interests of balance I think as a fellow Australian I should put another point of view and present some facts as they stand currently, in contrast to Andrew Bolt’s view of Liberal Party MPs being “bombarded by emails”. This weekend the Australian newspaper published their Newspoll results. Newspoll is one of the most accurate polling services in Australia. Newspoll results indicate that 67% of all voters want an ETS – further, 61% of country people want an ETS. Of the Liberal/National Party Coalition supporters, 57% are in favour of an ETS, while only 34% are against. In view of these facts, it puts the current Liberal Party boilover on leadership, at the very least, somewhat interesting considering there is a common belief that Liberal Party MP’s are reluctant to support the ETS for fear of being voted out by their electorate. Adding to the intrigure further, more detailed polling by Newspoll indicates that by voting against the ETS is likely to result in no less than 20 members losing their seat in comparison to a pro ETS stance.

Roger

Mark.R
And at that Commonwealth meeting Gordon Brown fatuously promised $10bn to be transferred to third world nations to assist in their efforts to contain CO2. This from the man who over 10 years systematically emptied the Treasury and borrowed recklessly when those coffers were bare. With Quantative Easing his ongoing demonstration of fiscal rectitude, he still has the gall to swan around the restricted world stage of the Commonwealth Conference with a rictus smile handing out largesse which we no longer possess.
Then at the end he involves HM Qeen Elizabeth 2nd in the political statements of the final speeches.
Her Majesty did however appear disgruntled by the bilge she was almost certainly obliged to read and perhaps was thinking as she read what an Anus Horribilis she had been lumbered with as Prime Minister.

GA

President Sarkozy – There must be a new world governance in Copenhagen
French President Nicolas Sarkozy is calling for a World Environmental Organisation to deal with climate change and environmental topics. “We must develop a world environmental organisation…There must be a new world governance in Copenhagen,” he said. Sarkozy, who is the first French President to attend a British Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM), made the call at a news conference yesterday at the International Financial Centre, Port-of-Spain.
http://guardian.co.tt/news/general/2009/11/28/sarkozy-set-world-body-deal-climate-change

Patrick Davis

“ralph (00:24:33) :
There are not many subversive activities in the UK any more. Margaret Thatcher had to endure Spitting Image each week, but Labour have banned criticism and satire of anything and everything. Top Gear is as good as it gets nowadays, and that is why people watch it. (And that’s why the army have devoted 192 days of army training to Top Gear programs.)”
OMG! Yes, this is true. Thatchers’ “don’t care bears”. Norman Tebbit was “Bastard Bear”. Although seems any YouTube video about it appears pulled.
And what is KRudd747 doing? Ignoring reality and “palling” up with Brown and The Queen. Bad move Rudd, bad move.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/commonwealth-seeks-to-shape-copenhagen-talks-20091128-jxe9.html

Ron de Haan

American Thinker states “This is our Berlin Wall moment! They can’t stop us now!”
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/11/tear_down_the_warmist_wall.html
Vaclav Klaus has a totally different view:
“I have already been at a UN Summit in Copenhagen before. It was in 1995 at the so-called Social Summit. At that time, the Summit was attended by then U.S. Vice President Al Gore who — so it seems — will be there again this year. I did also attend, as Prime Minister of the Czech Republic, but I don’t plan to go there now.
I don’t see any chance to influence the results or to be listened to”.
Copenhagen will be a political isolated event and when it’s over, the free world will have ceased to exist.
Conclusion, stop Copenhagen!!!!!
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/11/05/v-225-clav-klaus-largest-tax-increase-in-world-history.aspx

Martin Brumby

@Greg (23:23:54) :
“Consensus never means anything in Science, people had Consensus when the earth was flat, but the skeptic turned it around.
“Ian Plimer is worth having a listen too, he’s the only sane one left in Australia with Andrew Bolt!!
http://files.me.com/donaldc/f6egi9.mp3
Greg is absolutely right – and Ian Plimer’s podcast is very well worth a listen. IMHO it is well worthy of being promoted to a full posting on WUWT.
His book “Heaven and Earth – Global warming: the missing science” is also an essential read. A relative sent me a cutting from The Times:- August 22 Book Review, to which I then responded:-
“I think it is a very impressive book. I thought I knew a fair amount about the subject but some of the detailed information especially on geology was new to me. Fascinating.
“This kind of stuff from the Times was one of the reasons I discontinued my subscription. I don’t mind the odd silly climate scare story or article. I guess it is to be expected from the media – they want to flog newspapers after all. But the absolute censorship of the debate that is going on in scientific circles about each and every aspect of the “Anthropogenic Global Warming” theory (or should it be religion?) is worrying – particularly when you consider the huge sums of money that are being spent and massive distortions being set up in the economy on the basis of the AGW theory. In a period of over three months reading The Times and The Sunday Times, this sad apology for a review is about the only acknowledgement that there even IS a debate. The media (and the BBC may be the worst of the lot) push the notion that the science is “settled” and there is “consensus”. (As if consensus was how science develops! Consensus is what politicians seek!) The only major newspaper who even attempts to present some balance is the Daily Telegraph, which whilst full of AGW news stories, at least publishes Christopher Booker’s column which does promote a different perspective.
“In the mean time, I guess the average UK household is already spending perhaps £1000 per year in taxes and higher energy prices based on ‘combating climate change’ (and this will increase exponentially as we move towards ’emissions reduction targets’ to which we have signed up.
“I note that The Times’ “reviewer” Bob Ward (whilst attempting to rubbish Plimer, (who is Professor of Mining Geology at the University of Adelaide and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences at the University of Melbourne and who has published over 120 scientific papers) – is the “Policy & Communications Director at the Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment”. In other words he is the PR guy for an outfit that has been set up at the taxpayer’s expense specifically to promote the Global Warming religion and whose continued existence (and no doubt Mr. Ward’s continued ability to pay his mortgage) depends absolutely on promoting this stuff.
“Unfortunately, carefully reading the review doesn’t convince me that he has even necessarily held a copy of the book in his hands, much less read it. You get the flavour from paragraphs such as:-
“”The first chapter contains a number of blunders and some highly contentious statements. In the second paragraph (sic), he claims that “depopulation, social disruption, extinctions, disease and catastrophic droughts take place in cold times and life blossoms and economies boom in warm times”. On this extraordinary logic we should, presumably, be doing all we can to promote global warming.”
“In fact this selective quotation from the third paragraph of Plimer’s introduction sets the agenda for a considerable section of Plimer’s book. It isn’t ‘extraordinary logic’, it is a bald statement of facts, facts which are developed at length, explained and comprehensively referenced in the book (there are 2311 footnotes in all, the vast majority of which reference published scientific papers). The “doing all we can to promote global warming” is Ward’s straw man. In fact one of the central planks in Plimer’s book is that it is absolute hubris to imagine that mankind, using its very best endeavours, is capable of greatly affecting the climate one way or another.
“And is it ‘extraordinary’, or even slightly contentious that the Roman Warm Period and the Mediaeval Warm Period (or even the long period of recovery from the Little Ice Age which ended in the middle of the C.19th) WERE periods when economies boomed and life for most people got better? The only point at contention here is the fact that both warm periods and the little ice age were airbrushed from the historical record in order to produce the notorious ‘hockey stick’ graph which was the poster child of the 2001 IPCC report and retained in the 2007 IPCC report (and is still trotted out today to justify ‘urgent action’) despite having been comprehensively demolished in the scientific literature.
“Another good example is Ward’s “Plimer makes the curious statement that ‘the year of 2008 was an exceptionally cold year’, with a footnote reference to an online US newspaper that doesn’t appear to exist”.
“Well, the newspaper article which doesn’t exist is:-
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/10/global-warming-freeze/
(Plimer’s footnote on page 26 has a typo – it gives ……warming/freeze/ ) It took me about 30 seconds to find the article in question. This piece, (by David Deming () a geophysicist, an adjunct scholar with the National Center for Policy Analysis and an associate professor of arts and sciences at the University of Oklahoma) is worth reading itself but Ward unaccountably omits any reference to Plimer’s page of references confirming his initial “curious statement”.
“Anyway, I could go on much longer but I’d better get to work and help get some more coal out of the ground or we’ll all be sitting around with the lights out.
“I suspect Ward’s review has most likely been culled from blog comments posted on one of the alarmist websites, probably http://www.realclimate.org. I very much doubt he even attempted to read the book.
Events have now moved on, of course.
The science (as exemplified by many of the postings here, on CA and other sites – as well as books by Plimer, Michaels and many others) is important to me and readers here. But I doubt if either Turnbull or Little Kevin Rudd, Genius of the Antipodes (or Obama. or Blair. or Brown), care two hoots about the science, even if they have made any attempt whatever to investigate it.
What they are all interested in is Power. All have had (Turnbull, Blair) or are enjoying their brief spell at the “top”. All are ambitious and realise that when the voters tire of them, a member of the political elite in World Government is the job to have. No tiresome elections, little hassle from the media, a sybaritic lifestyle and a huge index linked pension for life. Worth going after! No wonder AGW is “too big to fail!”
For slightly lesser mortals here in the UK, there is of course our beloved EU, to which successive governments have surrendered almost all their powers.
An interesting piece (one of many) is:-
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/11/beaucoup-des-euros.html
which points out that the unelected (and probably unelectable) Baroness Ashton is now on £241,000 pa basic salary. A week ago, no one in the UK had heard of her. Now, no one around the world has heard of her. That’s a long week in politics for you.