Excerpts from The LA Times story:
U.S. Chamber of Commerce seeks trial on global warming
By Jim Tankersley
August 25, 2009
Reporting from Washington
The nation’s largest business lobby wants to put the science of global warming on trial.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, trying to ward off potentially sweeping federal emissions regulations, is pushing the Environmental Protection Agency to hold a rare public hearing on the scientific evidence for man-made climate change.
Chamber officials say it would be “the Scopes monkey trial of the 21st century” — complete with witnesses, cross-examinations and a judge who would rule, essentially, on whether humans are warming the planet to dangerous effect.
“It would be evolution versus creationism,” said William Kovacs, the chamber’s senior vice president for environment, technology and regulatory affairs. “It would be the science of climate change on trial.”
The goal of the chamber, which represents 3 million large and small businesses, is to fend off potential emissions regulations by undercutting the scientific consensus over climate change. If the EPA denies the request, as expected, the chamber plans to take the fight to federal court.
The EPA is having none of it, calling a hearing a “waste of time” and saying that a threatened lawsuit by the chamber would be “frivolous.”
EPA spokesman Brendan Gilfillan said the agency based its proposed finding that global warming is a danger to public health “on the soundest peer-reviewed science available, which overwhelmingly indicates that climate change presents a threat to human health and welfare.”
…
The chamber proposal “brings to mind for me the Salem witch trials, based on myth,” said Brenda Ekwurzel, a climate scientist for the environmental group Union of Concerned Scientists. “In this case, it would be ignoring decades of publicly accessible evidence.”
…
The proposed finding has drawn more than 300,000 public comments. Many of them question scientists’ projections that rising temperatures will lead to increased mortality rates, harmful pollution and extreme weather events such as hurricanes.
In light of those comments, the chamber will tell the EPA in a filing today that a trial-style public hearing, which is allowed under the law but nearly unprecedented on this scale, is the only way to “make a fully informed, transparent decision with scientific integrity based on the actual record of the science.”
Read the complete LA Times story here
Website of the US Chamber of Commerce here

First thing I thought was… Salem with trials??? You mean like blaming an innocent victim (witch, CO2) for a non-issue (global warming, witchcraft)? These guys are awesome in their capability for projection…
Meanwhile: it seems to me that if someone really truly buys into the “precautionary principle” they would immediately stop what they’re doing and become a devout Christian.
Such a trial has already been reported. See the comment (18:56:38) on 3 Mar 2009 at
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/03/pielke-jrs-take-on-an-amazing-conversation-with-a-climate-scientist/#comments
Bizzare….
My first thought was using the legal process to determine science was about one step removed from holding a heresy trial.
Then again, considering how wonderfully science has done with the process – errors of fact, peer review rubberstamps, journals that won’t publish conflicting papers, refusals to release source data or processing algorithms – the scince community hasn’t covered itself with glory either.
Thanks for the link; nice job of satirizing the folly of ‘repeat-the-mantra’ brainwashing (all together now: “Mankind is killing the Earth using carbon dioxide produced by burning fossil fuels”). A real tour-de-force, reminiscent of another Jerry Lee. . . 😉
/Mr Lynn
Haha! Can’t believe I’m voting for a trial for ANYTHING ever. But I am! Bring it on, Chamber of Commerce. I don’t see how the CoC can lose this one.
Nogw, since one could not read Ruckelshaus’ mind, I do not believe that the direct reason was as you have stated [emphasized above], but I do agree that that was the unintended consequence. DDT could have saved an inestimable number of lives in the third world.
Times and conditions are changing here in the USA such that the lack of DDT may eventually do the same thing to our own population. This result would, of course, greatly elate the anti-humanity greenies.
I voted no. Given the way decisions have gone here in
California, I wouldn’t trust the courts. The Chamber
is myopic when it comes to immigration, so they’re
suspect too. I wouldn’t put it past them to be on the
take. There is simply too much at stake.
I’d like to question the impartiality of the jury in advance, mainly because most people have concerns in the economic issues regarding this subject.
I voted yes and I hope it happens, but I’m not very optimistic. But of course the court proceedings must be fair. The UK legal ruling on Gore’s film was reasonably fair (and very damaging for Gore) so there is hope.
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One claimed proof for AGW is the ‘consensus’. It may be that the consensus, if it really did exist, may be cracking. But of course science does not – or should not – work by consensus. It should work by assessing the evidence. As they say, it just takes one ugly fact to destroy a beautiful theory.
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It seems to me that science should actually work in a similar fashion to a court of law. In a court of law consensus means nothing. If everybody thinks Joe Bloggs is guilty, that should have no effect whatsoever. The verdict should depend on the evidence and nothing else.
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Providing the court proceedings are fair then I think it could be a fantastic opportunity. It could put people like Lindzen and Monckton on the front pages where they belong. It would shatter the conspiracy of silence that dominates most of the media. Opinion polls show that on both sides of the Atlantic a healthy majority of people believe that the warming was natural, so the anti-AGW side would, in theory at least, have the public on their side.
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If the pro-AGW side believed they could win then they would be in effect saying: “Bring it on!”. But the fact that they obviously hate the idea speaks volumes.
Chris
Flanagan (05:04:54) :
How exactly should we call a country where the scientific opinion would be decided by law? Reminds me the Galileo trial…
No Flanagan, it is not science it’s about the promotion of semi science and alarmism.
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/2597/Exposed-Climate-Fear-Promoters-Greatest-Fear–A-Public-Trial-of-the-Evidence-of-Global-Warming-Fears-Inconvenient-Developments-Continue-to-Mount
Cases involving legal decisions about matters of science are routine. (E.g., about dangers of various medicines, the validity of patents, etc.) Saying that science shouldn’t be decided by the courts is a non-starter–they’re already involved. Eliminating the courts would not eliminate non-scientific rulings on the topic, it would just shift non-scientific decision-making by default to the legislature and/or the executive agencies. And they make their decisions based on testimony given to them, similar to what goes on in a trial.
Second, a legal decision would not foreclose scientific research and publication on the topic. IOW, the judiciary wouldn’t be intruding into science or shutting it up. There’s no analogy to the Galileo situation.
Third, there’s no need for a “trial” to be a legally binding trial. What the CoC seems to be calling for, or anyway ought to be calling for, is a more elaborate form of a “hearing,” one that merely mimics the features of a trial in order to enable a fairer and fuller consideration of the evidence. In particular these features are: a neutral (non-agency) judge/overseer, cross-examination of scientists, and document “discovery.”
Fourth, there’s no need for the judge to be the detailed examiner of the evidence. In patent cases brought before the International Trade Commission, for instance, there are professional panels of examiners who hear the arguments and then make a recommendation to the judge. This format could be adopted here, with the panels being made up of distinguished retired scientists from various disciplines.
Fifth, there’s no need for the judge to be a scientific illiterate, if the “trial” format is merely an ad hoc device to enable a more disinterested and detailed examination of the evidence and arguments. He/she could be a scientist with some legal training, or real-time legal backup by an aide. And the judge needn’t be a single individual, but could be a multi-member group, like an appeals court.
Sixth, the “decision” handed down needn’t be black/white, but instead could be couched in probabilistic terms (shades of gray). Or, better, the trial could be set up to have multiple outcomes, with the third outcome being, “Given the costs involved, and the irrevocable nature of a treaty commitment to such spending, would it be wise to wait two (say) years while additional skeptical research is funded and additional scrutiny is performed on the current consensus?” If Yes is the answer—which seems as though it would be a nice face-saving outcome—that’s great.
If No is the outcome, that wouldn’t be a loss for the skeptical side, because if the trial were not held, No would be the outcome from Congress or the EPA anyway. Long-term a No would be a Win for skepticism because, if the world fails to warm over the next decades, Establishment science and Establishment political structures and procedures would lose legitimacy, and more decentralized scientific and political organizational structures would gain in contrast.
(For instance, I think it would be good if there were seven funding agencies in place of the NSF, whose budgets would rise and fall depending on the impofrtance of the research they had funded. This would encourage more funding of far-out ideas, such as DARPA does. DARPA’s research provides much more bang for the buck than the NSF’s.)
Seventh, in addition to making an overall AGW ruling (Yes, No, or Delay), the judges and examiners could make lots of sub-rulings, or anyway offer tentative opinions, on the 101 contested claims in this dispute, listing them in order from strongest to weakest. Or they could instead, or in addition, point out areas where the evidence needs to be re-examined or firmed up or made congruent with some other line of evidence.
Eighth, the risk of getting a biased judge or panel of judges could be reduced by splitting the trial into different sub-trials on disputed topic-areas, with separate judge-panels and examiner-panels for each. (In addition, each side could be allowed to appoint one of the judges to the panel, to ensure that its arguments got a hearing during judicial head-scratching conferences.) For instance, there could be one topic-panel for sea level rise, one for positive/negative CO2 feedbacks, one for solar effects, one for glaciers, etc. There could be as many as 20 of these. This would greatly speed things up and add to the depth of the examinations.
Ninth, regardless of the outcome, it would be a great contribution to future disputants to have all the arguments and citations and evidence put “on the record” in a centralized location, and to have lots of “myths” debunked or at least crippled during cross-examination. Cross-examination and formal “debates” by disputants (which should be part of these procedures) would force both sides to confront each others’ best points, instead of talking past each other. The issues involved would thereby be sharpened and clarified. This alone justifies this format.
The trial is currently being done where it should be, the Court of Public Opinion. Vox Populi Let the People Decide.
The Chamber of Commerce should leave well enough alone.
Excellent analysis, including the suggestions how to structure such a proceeding. I would add that while cases “involving matters of science” are common, they are perhaps better characterized as “matters of science as they affect policy or applications,” well illustrated in Roger Knights’ paragraph 6.
The essential question is whether there is a clear-enough understanding of climate dynamics (from prehistory through the present) to justify the alarming predictions and draconian policies that the AGW ideologues want to foist upon us. A ruling that these issues are not in fact ‘settled’ would go a long way toward stopping the rush to the cliff.
According to the LA Times article linked in the post up top, the Chamber expects the request for an enhanced hearing to be denied, whereupon they plan to go to court:
The reporter’s use of the word “undercutting” displays an unfortunate bias; better would be ‘challenging’.
It will be interesting to see if the EPA will agree to a hearing. If they’re smart they will, as that will more easily enable them to stack the deck with their own ‘experts’. Once it gets to the courts, the EPA (i.e. the Obama administration) could have less control of the outcome.
/Mr Lynn
Bob Paglee : (14:44:22) –
Unfortunately , the answer to the question in your final paragraph is yes , at least momentarily . Perhaps I’m being naive , but I can’t imagine that an alliance of such disparate radicals could hold together over time . As it is , it seems that the Teamsters , UAW and the like have been conned into believing that they would have a place in a Green utopia , and/or the other way around .
the us chamber of commerce is a transglobal entity run by people who do not have america’s interests at heart.
curiousgeorge,
I think any kind of trial where evidence can be presented and cross examined is better than the situation we have now where the people shouting the loudest wins.
Lawyer, “I call the AGWer to the stand.”
Lawyer, “Can you predict the temperature in one month based on CO2 levels?”
AGWer, “No. Because it is weather if it gets colder, not climate change. However, if it gets warmer in a month, then my case has been proven because CO2 is still going up.”
Lawyer, “Can you predict the temperature in one month based on oceanic influences?”
AGWer, “No. Because short term weather is not predictable.”
Lawyer, “So if I ask you these same questions every month for the next 50 years, will your answers change?”
AGWer, “No. Because monthly temperature changes cannot be predicted even over 50 years.”
Lawyer, “So you are saying that you cannot predict the general direction of temperature anomalies over a 50 year period?”
AGWer, “[crickets chirping].”
Lawyer, “I call the naturalist to the stand.”
Lawyer, “Can you predict the temperature in one month based on CO2 levels?”
Naturalist, “No. Temperature anomalies are not correlated with CO2 levels.”
Lawyer, “Can you predict the temperature in one month based on oceanic influences?”
Naturalist, “Why yes. We can predict the general direction of the anomaly based on whether or not, for example, the PDO is in an El Nino or La Nina condition or event.”
Lawyer, “So if I ask you these same questions every month for the next 50 years, will your answers change?”
Naturalist, “No. Oceanic influences have been shown to correlate with subsequent land temperatures quite well.”
Lawyer, “So you are saying that you can predict the general direction of monthly temperature anomalies over a 50 year period?”
Naturalist, “Yes.”
Lawyer, “I rest my case.”
Newsflash: Anti-science forces _lost_ the Scopes monkey trial. Maybe they might want to pick a different analogy? ~snip~
Ooops, too many negations. Anti-science forces, of course, won the scopes monkey trial. I meant to say that scientists lost.