Renewable energy – our downfall?

This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.

For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government  subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony

Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis

The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.

So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.

Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.

However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.

The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.

This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.

But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.

Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.

Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.

While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.

But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.

This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:

a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.

b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.

c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.

The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?

In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.

Nuclear

But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.

In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.

What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.

While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)

Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.

And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.

However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.

We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!

Ralph Ellis

June 2004

1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.

2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.

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slowtofollow
May 26, 2009 5:26 pm

Fuelmaker and Roger – so what do you think of the idea of wasting less?
Roger; I make a 1GW set capable of generating an income stream of $440m pa at 5c/kWh. Say on your numbers $10bn build (sounds high cf europe no.s which I think were about £3bn for 1.6GW?) gives 23years simple case payback? Without build time inc! How long do they run for? 46 years for 100% ROCE? 1.5% compound? What’s inflation at? (ahem) I know its amicky mouse example but it seems there must be some state money coming in here to make it worthwhile? Please check the figures – could have missed some 10^3!!

Fuelmaker
May 26, 2009 6:09 pm

Roger
I sincerely thank you for your reply. I have been frustrated by environmental regulators and regulations that generally have just obstructed real environmental progress and by the tone of your response, I believe we agree more than not.
I haven’t tried to do any energy work in CA for many years. I did just go to the PG&E website and checked the general service rate for business schedule A-1. The price per KWh is about $.18. This is about twice the national average, more than twice what my business pays. You may be comparing the EIA numbers for wholesale power, which do not have all the subsidies loaded on.
I agree that power price is just one other factor in a host that you mention why CA manufacturing has fled.
I stand by my comments that utility scale energy storage will do nothing for renewables. Of course you are correct that they have a place for special purposes.
I feel your pain that SCE had to get approval from the Air Quality Management District to install batteries.
I am not from CA, 4 years was enough. I know you are but one man and most realistic organizations have given up on trying to get nukes or coal plants built, which would require repeal of several statutes. But when sensible people like you do not speak truth to power, we will continue to be led by ignorant fools.
Of course nuclear power operating costs of 2 cents are misleading. But I still stand by my statement that France is not subsidizing it. They are likely only exporting when their native load is low, when no one else needs it and is only saving coal fuel costs of 2 cents. You can be sure that when there is a winter peak in the north and France has some to spare they will charge the going rate for peaking power with old gas turbines and charge 10 cents.
Slowtofollow
Wasting less is a great personal goal. I am a typical dad who turns off the lights and the AC and heat. There is no lack of information on how to save energy and no lack of capital to invest in economic replacements. It will not save enough energy to live off of renewables unless you triple the price.

Geoff Sherrington
May 26, 2009 9:32 pm

Economists modelling large scale energy provision sometimes leave out equations. If you owned a power plant that was penalised to subsidise wind energy, it would be a natural competitive business instinct to claw back that enforced subsidy if opprtunity arose. Consider this year 2009 extract from “Word Nuclear News”:
Scandinavian power price surprises. Finland has announced its intention to put a tax on nuclear and hydro power sources built before 1997 because in the operation of a carbon trading market they will make good profits. The tax will apply to 2182 MWe of nuclear capacity and about 3000 MWe of hydro at a rate of up to EUR one cent per kWh. It will thus counter the incentive to maximise the utilisation of non carbon-emitting base-load plant.
Denmark trades power in the same Nord Pool, which has announced that from October the spot floor price for surplus power will drop from zero to minus EUR 20 cents/kWh. In other words, wind generators producing power in periods of low demand will have to pay the network to take it. Nord Pool said that “A negative price floor has been in demand for some time – especially from participants trading Elspot in the Danish bidding areas. … Curtailment of sales may give an imbalance cost for the affected seller and thus creates a willingness to pay in order to deliver power in the market.” This is likely to have a negative effect on the economics of wind power in the region, since a significant amount of Denmark’s wind power production is affected. WNN 1/4/09, Nord Pool 4/2/09.
Yep, that’s right. Wind power is bought at negative prices in off-peak. Revenge is sweet.
What’s more, we can expect this tactic to be used all over the world. Who ever expected that compulsory subsidies should be forever? Commerce does not work that way.

Aron
May 26, 2009 10:09 pm

In the UK and US we have big energy lobbyists trying to cash in on global warming by recommending those useless windfarms that will be torn down within 30 years. In Sicily, well, the mafia has decided they will cash in on it too
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/feddb08c-38cd-11de-8cfe-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

Pofarmer
May 26, 2009 10:11 pm

“you should know that new nuclear power plants were banned by law in California decades ago. More recently, new coal-fired plants were banned, effectively, but existing contracts to import coal-based power will be honored but not be renewed.”
Better buy your backup generators now.

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 26, 2009 10:16 pm

Upthread someone mentioned hydrinos
Pragmatic (13:12:47) : And a program to investigate new physics should not be limited by political influences. If there are potentially viable low energy nuclear, or Millsean hydrino-type reactions that are repeatable – they should be openly funded.
That sent me off on an untamed Anatidae bird pursuit that ended here:
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/BLPIndependentReport.pdf
Which claims to be a university verification of their net energy out / gain. I can’t tell if this is bogus or real, so I’ve collected some of the links I ran into and ask the real / not real question. If anyone has clue, I’d love to share in it… This hydrino thing also came up under the infinite energy thread. Rather than take everyone here down this rat-hole with me, I’ve put my question in the following link:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/05/26/are-hydrinos-for-real/
And anyone who would like to enlighten me is invited to do so…

May 26, 2009 10:41 pm

@Geoff Sherrington (21:32:06) :
Re “Wind power is bought at negative prices in off-peak”
This is great news for the energy storage systems developers, such as my clients. Rather than sell the power at time of production for a loss (negative price), one can store the power for sale at a later time at a positive price. I do hope they keep this up!
@Fuelmaker,
“I stand by my comments that utility scale energy storage will do nothing for renewables.”
Wind-power that is integrated with pumped storage hydroelectric is utility scale energy storage, and it works wonders.
@Pofarmer,
“Better buy your backup generators now.”
No need. Natural gas is abundant in California, thanks to the LNG regasification plant a few miles to the south in Mexico.

a jones
May 26, 2009 11:23 pm

Answer NO.
Never seen so much [snip] outside of AGW.
Perpetual motion indeed, not even the universe itself can manage that.
I understand that it is difficult to accept the notion that a quantum mechanical view suggests that particles can just appear and disappear: but please understand that this isn’t real merely the best way we have of describing what happens in the real world in mathematical terms.
Unfortunately the charlatans and mountebanks seize upon our ignorance and so have wondrous magical things not known to physics.
And sell them to the credulous.
It was ever thus because serious natural philosophers have to investigate every avenue: and can be so easily deceived by trickery.
Was not the great Tycho Brahe the astronomer and astrologer to the King of Denmark? Did not Newton study the bible for clues .
As I said in a previous post the best training for the inquisitive is study the art of stage magical illusion.:
I mean no insult nor cast any aspersion, you are naturally curious, which is exactly what these quacksalvers depend upon to peddle their rubbish.
But you are wise enough to ask others.
And again the answer is NO.
Its bunkum dressed up with pseudo scientific jargon designed to impress.
So I hope you will not be offended by my bluntness.
Kindest Regards
Still invest if you wish.
Does this answer your question?

May 27, 2009 12:22 am

>> I can’t see the moon going away – so I think we are
>>fairly safe relying on tidal sources as a big chunk.
As I said in the article, tidal power is probably the worst of the bunch. Yes, it is predictable, but it also predictably switches off too. In theory, you can get four generating periods a day, but since generating on the inflow inhibits the resulting outflow, the current thinking with the Severn barrage is to generate only on the outflows – twice a day, or about eight hours generating. Now if you can run a city or a nation on eight hours of power a day, I would like to know how.
Even worse, twice a month, those power peaks will coincide with minimum electrical demand, so is rather useless. Worse still is neap tides. It is surprising how many Green proponents love tidal power, but have never heard of a neap tide. During neaps (twice a month), there will be the square-root of not a lot of electrical generation.
In summary, tidal power looks wonderful, but would destroy any technical society (unless we live and work exclusively in synch with the Lunar cycle).
.

May 27, 2009 12:32 am

>>What I was talking about was something said in the video
>>I posted. Look from the 2:37 to 3:23 minute of this :
I see what you mean, but you should have put more smily faces at the end of your post. I thought you were possibly supportive.
The end of that info-mercial about the air-car is pure lies, and a decent consumer protection authority would shut them down immediately. It is half-truths and lies like this that get the Greens frothing at the mouth and demanding more renewables.
Or perhaps the factory could demonstrate their miracle-compressor working, with no connections to the outside world whatsoever, no electricity, no petrol, no gas, no battery…..
.

May 27, 2009 12:50 am

>>This was very forward-thinking in 2004 and it reads,
>>to me, like it was written yesterday.
As soon as I saw this issue being politicised by the UK government, I could smell a rat and decided to investigate. The present UK government has never told a single word of truth since they took power, so if they were backing renewables it was 100% certain it was a pointless blind-alley.
And the government were on form, as usual…
And for the poster below, I did not include solar and geothermal in the article as they are not great sources for the UK, and this was written for the UK market. Anyone who has lived in the UK for a few years would not dream of using solar power here. You could try, but it is a great way to make a small fortune (but only if you start with a large fortune).
Regards geothermal, yes we could get some residual heat here in the UK, but we have no obvious hot-spots that could be really useful. We have no Yellow stones here. Bath gets hot water (hence the name), but we are only taking 40 degrees cent. I might look into it further, but I think large extraction would be uneconomic and cool the small heat-plumes we have rather quickly.
Well, actually we do have one hot-spot, as the whole of the geological pillar that was left under Coventry is on fire and burning merrily (300m down). However, that is a coal fire so it hardly counts, and the result of years of mining around there. No matter how many shafts they block off, the fire still gets enough air to sustain itself.

May 27, 2009 1:10 am

>>Wind-power that is integrated with pumped storage
>>hydroelectric is utility scale energy storage, and it
>>works wonders.
But only if the government underwrites it. The Dinowig pumped storage facility was the most expensive power station in Europe, especially as the Greens decided it had to be buried in a mountain (to be environmentally friendly). No commercial operator would dream of such a facility, it is a gold-plated government white elephant.
http://www.fhc.co.uk/dinorwig.htm
And while you might think this wind-pumped combination may make sense with cheaper designs, it will still not power any more than a fraction of UK demand. You would need 700 Dinorwigs to power the UK for a week of zero wind. That is simply not feasible, neither economcally nor topographically, and so wind-pumped systems will only ever be able to provide a small fraction of UK energy requirements.
So we come back to the same old problem. Renewables cannot provide base-load electrical supply, and so will only ever be the froth on the cappuccino. (All presentation, and no taste or substance.)
.

Geoff Sherrington
May 27, 2009 4:56 am

Roger Sowell (22:41:23) : 26 05
Roger, you are intentionally missing the pint. The point is that nobody likes bludgers who exist only because of subsidies taken from genuine others. They will claw them back over time.
It matters not if you develop a system of off-peak storage. You then have to double the size of the installation, so that half of it can produce while half of it stores. The storage is not without loss. The higher the temperature of the storage material, the more efficient the process (a bit like the Otto cycle); but the greater the cost of containing the heat.
The bottom line is that wind power needs backup from fossil or nuclear almost of the same scale as the wind power plant, whether or not it uses off-peak storage. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. What happens when there is little wind for a week or so? It’s just so … fairyland …..

bill
May 27, 2009 5:19 am

ralph ellis (00:50:05) : Anyone who has lived in the UK for a few years would not dream of using solar power here. You could try, but it is a great way to make a small fortune (but only if you start with a large fortune).
I would agree for electrical energy, however evacuated glass tube solar water heaters DO work. Even on cloudy/winter days some heating is provided.
for example
http://www.rayotec.com/solar_heating/downloads/Rayotec_CPC_6_INOX.pdf
(will take a long time to get your money back!)

bill
May 27, 2009 5:26 am
May 27, 2009 6:58 am

@Geoff Sherrington (04:56:44) :
“Roger, you are intentionally missing the pint. The point is that nobody likes bludgers who exist only because of subsidies taken from genuine others. They will claw them back over time.”
I believe I understand the points made. From your dislike of subsidized power plants, you would then agree with me that nuclear plants should not be built.
“It matters not if you develop a system of off-peak storage. You then have to double the size of the installation, so that half of it can produce while half of it stores. The storage is not without loss. The higher the temperature of the storage material, the more efficient the process (a bit like the Otto cycle); but the greater the cost of containing the heat.”
We differ on this. It matters greatly to the owner of an intermittent power plant. Why would one double the size of the installation? I would size the thing to produce the required power, store up the excess, and release the excess upon demand. Yes, storage brings a loss. Generation in a fossil or nuclear plant brings a loss, too. It appears your remarks refer to thermal storage, useful for solar, but consider pumped storage hydroelectric.
“The bottom line is that wind power needs backup from fossil or nuclear almost of the same scale as the wind power plant, whether or not it uses off-peak storage. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. What happens when there is little wind for a week or so? It’s just so … fairyland …..”
I have maintained all along that intermittent power, standing alone, does not and will not replace fossil power. No competent engineer says otherwise. But, intermittent power with adequate storage will do so.
You might be interested in reading my views here:
http://energyguysmusings.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-i-support-renewable-energy.html

May 27, 2009 7:10 am

ralph ellis,
That is a well-written article, and congratulations for having it published on WUWT. We obviously disagree on the major points, but that is fine. I welcome the opportunity to read the views of others, and to share my views.
The U.K. must seize the advantages available to it, or as gamblers would say, play the cards you are dealt. Wind power with hydroelectric storage may not play a major role for the U.K. Yet, there is an enormous ocean current flowing past the islands, which should be seriously considered. An earlier thread on WUWT discussed this. Ocean current power plants do not suffer from intermittency issues, nor require storage.
As an example, California has substantial hydroelectric and geothermal because our terrain is suited for those. However, we are not blessed with much ocean current, nor on-shore wind, so those technologies will never provide a significant portion of the state’s power. But, off-shore wind and wave power are a different matter.
I would not count wind out just yet. There are some storage systems in the works that will suit many applications just fine.

Ared
May 27, 2009 7:49 am

slightly off-topic, but Econcern, a large company in renewable energy projects (amongst which a windfarm on the horizon of a beach where I used to watch the sunset regularly; but also many other projects in the UK, Spain, Turkey etc.), has filed for suspension of payments in the Netherlands. Until recently the company was loaded with praise, manager-of-the-year-awards, a share in the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize and annual growth figures in the triple digits.
I’m not a financial nor judicial mastermind, but according to the Dutch Wikipedia entry on suspension of payment (surseance van betaling), which unfortunately does not cite references, it works a bit differently in the Netherlands than in most Anglo-Saxan countries. Suppliers do not have to continue supplying the company, and banks can foreclose loans and mortages. So while in theory this move gives the company some time to find new investors or credit, it effectively ruins their ability to run a business. According to the same Wikipedia entry, 98% of all companies filing for suspension of payment in the Netherlands eventually end up bankrupted.

Pofarmer
May 27, 2009 9:22 am

No need. Natural gas is abundant in California, thanks to the LNG regasification plant a few miles to the south in Mexico.
As long as you’re happy paying probably triple for electricity as the rest of the country. You’re already over double what we pay.
From your dislike of subsidized power plants, you would then agree with me that nuclear plants should not be built.
Would you please stop this semantics crap?
There are some storage systems in the works that will suit many applications just fine.
Unfortunately, the lights may start blinking before any of that becomes “prime time”.
Why would one double the size of the installation? I would size the thing to produce the required power, store up the excess, and release the excess upon demand.
So, all you’re saying is that you just design it double from the start. More semantics.

Fuelmaker
May 27, 2009 9:57 am

Roger,
I read your blog and respect your technical expertise. However, you are now using the law (force of the majority) to prevent the market from delivering the cheapest power. You probably wouldn’t support a wood burning plant because it isn’t perfect enough and it would compete for subsidies with your client’s projects. You unashamedly would like to see nuclear power banned! The only way CA is going to be able to live on renewables is to reduce it’s population by at least half. Is that really your goal? Native born Americans have been fleeing CA for about 20 years now.
Frankly, I think you should be somewhat censored from this site except for quantified facts, because you are very good at arguing and misleading.

May 27, 2009 11:17 am

fuelmaker,
Well, thank you! I take your comment as a great compliment, re being very good at arguing. My mother agrees with you, by the way.
I enjoy wood burning facilities, although our local air quality agency restricts burning because the soot aggravates the air quality. But for a primary fuel to produce power, wood is not a viable alternative.
For some high-level perspective, it might be interesting to know that I work diligently to repeal California’s global warming law, AB 32. Until that repeal occurs, (and it will take a very long time, probably decades), we must comply with the law because penalties are rather steep for willful non-compliance. California will not live on renewables, but this state has demonstrated that renewables do not make life difficult. My lights work every time I flip the switch. Our power price is not the highest in the nation, either.
pofarmer,
“As long as you’re happy paying probably triple for electricity as the rest of the country. You’re already over double what we pay. “
As a matter of record, from the EIA, California’s electric power prices are only 20 to 30 percent above the national average. As compensation, net electricity use per capita in California is below the national average. At least 10 states charge more for power than does California. See Table 5.6.B., from the link below (scroll down to the bottom of the page):
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_3.html

David Porter
May 27, 2009 11:53 am

Having come into this debate late I notice that Roger Sowell has again been promoting his non ending agenda of anti nuclear bias, once again calling the French nuclear industry subsidised [based entirely on the fact that it is nationalised] and now he his stating that it is a con. I can only agree with Fuelmaker that his future comments should be “somewhat censored” on the grounds that he his prolific in arguing until the cows come home. In fact his constant theme is getting on my nerves and ruining many of the threads on this site.

May 27, 2009 2:01 pm

>>Yet, there is an enormous ocean current flowing past the
>>(British) islands, which should be seriously considered.
I understood that it was the Atlantic Conveyor that took Gulf Stream heat to the far north and flowed back down south at lower levels in the oceans. Do you really want to stop that flow, and possibly prevent peta-watts of energy from reaching the UK from the tropics?
You play with Mother Nature at your peril.
.

Gene L
May 27, 2009 2:41 pm

Chris Wood says: “The Greens oppose technical progress because it is necessary to destroy it as part of their political agenda to destroy capitalism and globalization. Green Peace ceased to be an environmental group a long time ago. It merely uses the environment as a cover.” No…
They desire the elimination of the human race…
Excellent analysis, though three items of rather great importance immediately come to mind:
A) Solar is not mentioned, and it has a multitude of issues not the least of which are a low efficiency, challenges of reliability, and synchronizing supply to demand (during cloudy periods and overnight).
B) Most of facilities for these “alternative technologies” are likely to be constructed far from the existing grid. We continue to see greens (in the US) opposing power lines, and we can expect more of the same as new transmission capabilities will be needed to move this “free energy” to where it can be used.
C) Nuclear power does generate a waste product. And the US Congress (largely the “Democratic” contingent) continues to stall development of real options, as well as keep reprocessing of waste off the table. The latter option was eliminated in the end days of the Carter administration, while the US was promised alternative energy options “soon”, such as solar, wind and so forth. And those options were known then to be unrealistic, and today they remain not ready for prime time.

May 27, 2009 2:58 pm

An interesting assessment of wave, tidal, and ocean current energy technologies from NREL:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy08osti/43240.pdf
“Status of Wave and Tidal Power Technologies for the United States” dated 2008.
This references 22 papers/sources for further reading.

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