Renewable energy – our downfall?

This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.

For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government  subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony

Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis

The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.

So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.

Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.

However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.

The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.

This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.

But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.

Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.

Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.

While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.

But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.

This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:

a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.

b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.

c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.

The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?

In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.

Nuclear

But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.

In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.

What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.

While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)

Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.

And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.

However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.

We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!

Ralph Ellis

June 2004

1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.

2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.

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Jack Simmons
May 26, 2009 10:18 am

oxdriver (08:47:52) :
Congress signed into law that biomass from public lands can not be used to create alternative energies (Biofuel Incentives and the Energy Title of the 2007 Farm Bill). Why?
It was against the interests of some group to permit.
My guess?
Farm lobby. After all, if you are producing alternatives that work, ethanol from corn would not look so attractive.
I could be wrong on that. But someone didn’t want you to do what you want to do. It does make a lot of sense, another strike against it.

DaveF
May 26, 2009 10:20 am

“Bill” – I’m afraid you can’t escape nuclear energy as easily as all that. The French have lots of nuclear power stations and apart from the fact that we in the UK rely upon the French for 14% of our electricity (Sorry if I’m boring anyone by repeating that) but some of those stations are in Northern France ( on the Cherbourg peninsula, for example) as little as sixty miles from our southern coast. No-one is going to persuade the French to abandon nuclear power within the foreseeable future, so surely the best way to prevent accidents is for atomic scientists the world over to work together to promote best practice, which I believe they do, to a large extent, not shut our eyes and hope it will go away.

hunter
May 26, 2009 10:21 am

Joel,
I think the evidence is that Dessler and his pals simply redefined the term ‘feedback’ to include humidity.
The only feedback measure that is valid is temeprature.
And the temps are not moving as predicted.

hunter
May 26, 2009 10:23 am

jamesG,
Are you suggesting that nukes in France are paid for by the UK?

leg
May 26, 2009 10:25 am

At least two commenters have brought up the issue of radioactive waste. As a health physicist, I can address the concerns.
Is radioactive waste necessarily more hazardous than other waste, particularly chemical wastes? Not really. Some points to consider…
1. High level radioactive waste, as fuel elements, is insoluble. If you put it in a highly secure, underground disposal facility which is in a low water area, is the waste going anywhere? No. It will sit there indefinitely and pose no risk. Given that it still is an energy source, my guess is that future generations will dig it back up and re-use it.
2. For the sake of argument, let us presume the waste somehow should start to disperse to the environment. Would it disperse as chunkies or would it move by molecular dispersion (one or two atoms at a time)? It would be the latter. By the time the atoms migrate to anything, e.g. a water well, there would only be long lived nuclides and damn few atoms. When it comes to radioactive atoms, dispersion is a solution. Why? Well, what most people don’t realize is that a radioactive atom only emits its radiation once. Is that atom emitting radiation all the time? Absolutely not! It has a 50-50 chance that it will emit its radiation sometime in its half-life period. So if an atom has a 24,000 year half life, it sits around doing nothing (no emission) until it lets loose its radiation. With a long half-life like this, the odds are it will NOT emit its radiation in your lifetime if that atom gets into you. Every day of our lives, we eat potassium40, carbon-14, uranium, radium, thorium, and a host of other naturally occurring radionuclides. A few atoms of reactor waste wouldn’t be a gnat in the ocean of radiation that we normally receive.
3. Compared to other waste streams from energy sources, reactor waste is very small in quantity. It takes very little disposal/storage space to handle all of the waste.
4. Radioactive materials are so much easier to find and deal with than chemical wastes. How do you find the waste chemicals from the manufacturing of solar panels should they get loose in the environment? It’s not as easy. Many of the chemicals are soluble and move easily in the environment. Managing radioactive waste is not rocket science. It is pretty easy to do.
The issue of radioactive waste is a red herring. Radioactive waste disposal can be very, very safe both for the environment and mankind. I find it fascinating that so many want to make judgment on radioactive materials (principally reactors), yet less than 10% of the population can correctly answer this most basic, elementary question on how a radioactive atom works: how often does a radioactive atom emit radiation? When one understands the simple concepts that answer this question, understand what half-life means, and then apply this basic knowledge to radioactive waste disposal, suddenly the fear evaporates. Knowledge is power folks. Learn the answer to this question and you will be empowered.

May 26, 2009 11:15 am

anna v,
There was a similar discussion on WUWT’s piece “Now That’s A Commencement Speech.”
My comment at (15:02:15) covered much of this.

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 26, 2009 11:16 am

bill (04:28:49) : To satisfy the French will require (12.4/1.5)*10^6 *250 /1000 tonnes polymer which is (if I haven’t slipped on the decimal) a rather unbelievable 2.1*10^6 tonnes of polymer.
Which according to this randomly selected site:
http://www.chem.uni-potsdam.de/apc/polymer.html
would be about 1% of world polymer production. Not exactly a lot. Since it can be reused many times, the quantity per year after production began would be smaller.
What’s so hard to believe about 2 million tons? I think you need a bit of perspective. This machine is used to dig coal:
http://www.allowe.com/Humor/WhereIsMyDozer.htm
It moves 100,000 cubic yards in a day. At a typical density of dirt (about 120 lbs / cu ft) that would be about 27 x 120 / 2000 or 1.62 tons per cu yard for a total of 162,000 short tons PER DAY.
So in two work weeks (take Sunday off) this machine moves about 2 MILLION tons of stuff to mine coal. I’d trade 2 weeks of work for the entire nuclear derived power output of all of France.
The polymer will therfore have to be sunk into a deep water current
and all 2 million tonnes dragged up from many meters down.

Yes, they used the Japan Current in their test. Nature conveniently provides the energy to move all the water. That 2 M tons is about 5000 to 6000 tons per day. Since it sits for most of a year, you don’t need to put it all down on one day and all back up on another. It would be better to have a continuous production.
Oh, and since you seem a bit out of touch with the scale of industrial processes: 6,000 tons is just about NOTHING on a mining or industrial scale. Not even a gnat on an elephants anatomy. About 250 tons / hour.
It would require running the above mining machine equivalent for about 0.037 of a day each day. Or about 54 minutes. Unless I slipped a decimal…
I guess we’re going to need a smaller machine… about 1/24 that size ought to do it…
Hmmm!
Yes, Hmmm indeed…

Jack Simmons
May 26, 2009 11:25 am

Just Want Truth… (15:29:10) :

It’s not just a topic for debate anymore–it is now law in the United States. On 5/21/09 the Waxman-Markey Bill, i.e., H.R. 2454, “The American Clean Energy and Security Act,” passed in to law by a vote of 33 to 25. It is law now :”This bill, when enacted into law this year… With this plan, we will shape a new energy destiny for our country,… “.

No, it just left the committee. It must now be voted on by the entire House. Then, it must pass the Senate. Then, the President signs it into law.
H.R. 2454 is not the law of the land yet.

a jones
May 26, 2009 11:47 am

It is not so much that radioactive waste is particularly hazardous but that the danger is very small compared to naturally occurring sources.
The ecopropagandists love to say that Irish Sea is the most radioactive in the world which may be true: but they never mention that the source of all that radioactivity is natural.
Similarly the county of Cornwall, England, not only has problems with arsenic in the soil but lots of radioactivity too, sixty years ago a number of water wells were shut down after this hazard had been discovered.
Kindest Regards

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 26, 2009 11:50 am

bill (06:26:34) :
“E.M.Smith (23:02:42) :
Solvents that don’t clean. Paints that don’t cover or hold up. All of it “special” and all of it needing to be passed through a special nuclear approval process…”
So its ok for China to supply lead based paints on kids toys? And ok to use solvents that destroy the ozone layer?

China, sadly, is not influenced by California law. Our paint has been lead free for decades, it’s the newer ‘only water based’ part that makes it not work well for many purposes. And as near as I can tell, propan2-one has never been implicated in ozone, having no chlorine: So I don’t see how your snipe connects to my comment at all. Perhaps a bit more time in chemistry class would help…
perhaps some legislation that increases the cost of products is worthwhile?
No need. We already have a 10% sales tax making everything so expensive that folks are forming shopping convoys to Nevada…
Personally, I like Oregon more. About $100 gas for the trip, so I hit break even on a $1000 item (unless it’s electronics that have a special green tax…) but it really depends on the ski season. Since I’m up the hill anyway, it’s a great time to pick up all the products that are not available in California. It’s been a while since I did the Oregon run. Last time was $1300 of truck tires for my old Ford F350 4×4 – but then I needed to fill the back with “other goods” to make the fuel cost back… It got about 9 miles to the gallon… Took about half the bed loaded up for 2 neighbors…
Isn’t it great what they have done to reduce smog production? /sarcoff>
Come to think of it, I can’t name a single product other than agriculture that is still made in California. Even name plate products like Apple iPods are outsourced to other places. No, a ‘product tax’ won’t work since we “don’t DO products” here…
I’m sure somebody makes stuff, but it’s not the huge manufacturing center it once was. (I drive past the empty factories frequently). FMC shut down some time ago, they made the Bradley tank-ette. Aerospace has largely bailed. Computers are toast. Some electronic parts remain, but mostly samples, the actual fab having moved to overseas long ago. Ditto much of the communications gear fab. A bit of software remains (though the actual production and pack of media is gone). Heck, even movies are now managed out of hollywood but actual filming is “on location” somewhere else much of the time. (Though the back lots remain and are sometimes used along with the sound stages.) I guess that’s what we still manufacture, fantasies…
You will have to put your tax on fantasies. Don’t tell Hansen and Gore …

Jack Simmons
May 26, 2009 12:01 pm

ralph ellis (06:09:37) :

Yes, there is ‘no comparison’, because coal and gas as an energy source kills far more people every year than nuclear power has in its entire history. Total deaths for fossil fuel power generation per annum must exceed 10,000 (6,000 in China coal alone).
And nuclear power? Apart from Chernobyl? A few dozen??

A few years ago I saw a bumper sticker saying “More people have died in the back seat of Ted Kennedy’s car than Three Mile Island”.

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 26, 2009 12:01 pm

John Galt (10:17:33) : Another problem is that as soon as government picks the winners and losers, then real innovation is hampered, if not eliminated altogether.
You are being too gentle. The true state of affairs is that “As soon as the government states an intent to pick the winners and losers”…
Just stating that they are going to stir the pot kills innovation and shifts all the money from R&D into PACS.

May 26, 2009 12:06 pm

>>There’s a nice graphic total energy research budgets
>>Nuclear has received and still receives much more than
>> it’s fair share.
Yes, but that includes nuclear physics budgets – answering the fundamental principles of physics. CERN is science, not nuclear power. And there are not many fundamental principles that can be discovered by looking at the internals of a windelec (wind turbine).
.

May 26, 2009 12:11 pm

>>Wind power is nuclear
>>Oh come on! Ridiculous!
Not ridiculous at all. What you are saying, by the promotion of wind power, is that you are perfectly happy with nuclear power (the Sun) as long as you think that this nuclear power source is sufficiently safe. All we need to do, therefore, is emulate the same safety standards as our nearby nuclear reactor (the Sun).

Sandy
May 26, 2009 12:24 pm

“Yes, nuclear has it’s place but it still has lot’s of problems and those new designs are still largely untested so any claims made for them are mere speculation.”
Whereas the the wind turbines have been tested and all their claims have already been proved to be speculation. We now get to watch appalling winters render most turbines uneconomic to repair within 5 years.

adoucette
May 26, 2009 12:47 pm

Roger Sowell wrote:
The word power does refer to electricity. As to the renewable figures you stated, you are quite wrong, sir. The figure is 23 percent, please see the link I referenced. Hydro is right at 10 percent, which is less than half of 23.
No Roger, I was not wrong. I was showing the percent of Renewables as a percent of Power in California, not just Electricity.
If you want to limit discussion to just electricity then don’t use the term POWER.
Then you use percent increase of Wind relative to itself to claim that: The wind generation increased more than 33 percent since 2001,
Yeah when you don’t produce much to begin with its not hard to get a 33% percent increase over 8 years.
The fact is the last year the increase in Wind was but 0.2 % of total electrical generation.
Or if you prefer its gone up by 1 % of generation over the last 5 years.
Solar is flat and the same percent in 08 as it was in 04. Large Hydro appears to be really down.
My point, is that even in California where there is substantial incentives/legal mandates for renewable energy, the percent of electricity from Renewables today, at 23.1% is less than it was 5 years ago, and since total electricity generation is down nearly 6% (and lower than 2004) then obviously there has also been a net decline in generation from Renewable sources as well.
Arthur

May 26, 2009 1:49 pm

Fascinating read. It’s actually quite similar to the decision a homeowner has to make on a micro scale when deciding whether to tie to the grid of go off the grid. When a battery is full it is full. See for example To Grid-tie or Not to Grid-tie.
I also agree that we can’t ignore nuclear energy. It will probably have to be part of the mix. I can’t see the moon going away – so I think we are fairly safe relying on tidal sources as a big chunk. Wind and even solar iffier and more dependent on weather conditions.
This was very forward-thinking in 2004 and it reads, to me, like it was written yesterday.
Andy Greene
Green Living Tips for Rednecks

May 26, 2009 2:31 pm

Underlying this essay is a key issue: Ralph has picked the least power dense (wind) and most problematic (hydro / nuclear) energy sources to critique. He hasn’t included PV, solar-thermal, and geothermal which may have significantly more potential. That said, his analysis of the issues with nuclear in particular and well thought out.

LarryD
May 26, 2009 2:44 pm

nuclearinfo.net claims that current known reserves of uranium will last for 85 years at current rates of consumption. Now, take into account that current designs only use about 5% of the energy in the fuel and “deep-burn” designs can get that up to 98% (with corresponding reduction of the radioactive waste issue), and that 85 years goes up to over 1,600 years. Without “additional or speculative reserves” (which nuclearinfo.net says could kick up the duration to 500 years, which translates to 98 centuries with “deep-burn”). Oh yes, that is counting only on the U235 in the ore, combine breeder and deep-burn and the supply goes up by a couple of magnitudes.
Then there is thorium, which is three times as abundant as uranium in Earth’s crust.
Solar has the following problems:
1. variability – partly highly predictable (day/night, seasonal), part much less so (clouds, dust, smog, anything that attenuates the sunlight).
2. Siting – insolation as well as cloudiness has to be taken into account. England gets less sunlight than anywhere in the contiguous 48 states.
3. diffuse – which brings up the shear area needed for the collectors/concentrators. Take the effective insolation at your site, divide by the efficiency of your system, and figure out how many square kilometers you need.
4. water – the collectors/concentrators heed to be kept clear of dust, etc. and washing off the surface takes water. Possibly a lot of water. Definitely a problem in a desert, where most of the good sites are.

Fuelmaker
May 26, 2009 2:48 pm

Whew, where to start. I have spent my whole career in alternative electricity generation and conservation. I started at Pacific Gas & Electric 29 years ago using ratepayer dollars to help agricultural customers reduce purchases of our product. I was skeptical of the “sustainability” of this program at the time and soon switched over to energy production.
I built small cogeneration plants for the next 10 years and then landfill gas generating plants ever since.
The article is amazingly durable considering it was written five years ago. Subsidies always distort markets and IMHO, never produce net benefit, just redistribute to the well connected. The only point I would like to correct in the post regards “spinning reserve”. In the US, there are all sorts of reserves and you can’t trust the words. Some spinning reserves qualify if they can produce power within 15 seconds, like emergency generators. So there are not large stations literally spinning at idle. The way most “spinning” reserve is handled is to always have at least a 10% overload rating available so that other, slower to respond plants can be brought on if there is a major outage. Wind, Solar, and especially Tidal, are very predictable, even if they are variable, so they do not cause extra spinning reserve to be operated.
Mikkel (03:05:39) :
Nice theory, but the idea of people buying their energy directly from generators and treating the utility as simply a delivery company failed miserably. California’s utility bankruptcies were caused by that theory. And nobody was able to get enough more for green power to save it, so the state had to force everyone to pay more for it. People will pay a little bit more for green electricity, but not enough people will pay enough of a premium to expand green generation any more.
Storage would make green power even more expensive and is totally unnecessary until there is excess green power during low demand periods, which won’t happen in any place there is significant population. This is NOT a simple problem to solve. The most efficient pumped storage systems lose 20% of the power put in to get it back later and there still is significant capital costs to build them.
Supercritical (03:10:00) :
I’d be happy to evaluate outlandish energy ideas, I do that for a living to some extent. Most fail on basic engineering. Ocean vents actually might be a reasonable idea for geothermal, but most are so far from populations that the cost of transmission would make it uneconomical, much like all the stranded gas that is used to produce LNG or methanol.
JamesG (03:21:50) :
Decommissioning only costs a lot because we have let the utopians demand that no risk is acceptable and everything must be restored to some fantastic pre-industrial state. I really don’t understand why we should ever decommission plants. They should be updated and expanded. We don’t demand that any other kind of enterprise restore their sites at the end of their useful life or even require a shutdown.
Fundamental problem with your comment that we should pursue geothermal is same as main thrust of the article. If you “direct” money to someone’s pet project, it is going to force everyone else to pay more for their power than the coal or nuclear project could have sold it for.
Roger Sowell (10:14:00) :
If you represent renewable energy in California, you clearly have gone over to the dark side. 13% renewable energy has doubled California’s energy cost and manufacturing has fled the state. Energy storage schemes will pile on some more costs. Flywheel systems consume a lot of energy just to generate some “spinning reserve” in case the utility fails and you can’t stand to wait 10 seconds for your generators to start. The only energy storage system that works well is water behind a dam or refined fuels in a storage tank. A bottle of compressed air is good energy storage to spin a big engine to get it started.
If you represented the utilities and helped them get some nukes and coal plants sited, CA would still have a shot at avoiding bankruptcy.
Ray (10:55:28) :
What do you think engineers have been doing for the last 200 years? There is no hope in making anything but slow incremental changes in engine efficiency as better materials are developed, and even these have almost ground to a halt because NOx emissions increase as engine operating temperatures increase.
Roger Sowell (13:09:25) :
I don’t understand why you think the French Nuclear program is a “con”. You imply that they are subsidizing their neighbors by exporting nuclear electricity at a loss? I have never heard the French accused of irrational altruism.

May 26, 2009 3:18 pm

Ralph ellis (12:06:06)
“Yes, but that includes nuclear physics budgets – answering the fundamental principles of physics. CERN is science, not nuclear power.”
Thanks Ralph. Yet another case of the basic dishonesty of the anti nukes.
We’re in a fight for our lives and the survival of our technological civilization which for all its faults is the best humans have ever done. No quarter, no prisoners.

May 26, 2009 3:21 pm

Mikkel (03:05:39) :
You are right that we don’t always use the cheapest thing available.
However, I don’t choose the cheapest jeans because I find the more expensive brand more comfortable. I don’t buy the cheapest food because I find the better brand are tastier. In my county, electrical users have the option to pay 15% more for wind-powered energy. I choose not to because I get just as many “green” electrons at my house as they do, and I don’t have to pay the “green guilt” stupidity surcharge.
What I’m getting at is that it is a personal choice. The U.S. was built by people that were tired of being told how to live. When government takes that choice (read Liberty) from you, then government is telling you that you are too stupid to decide for yourself.
You may not know Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid, but I don’t want their type to be choosing for me!

E.M.Smith
Editor
May 26, 2009 3:32 pm

adoucette (12:47:13) : My point, is that even in California where there is substantial incentives/legal mandates for renewable energy, the percent of electricity from Renewables today, at 23.1% is less than it was 5 years ago, and since total electricity generation is down nearly 6% (and lower than 2004) then obviously there has also been a net decline in generation from Renewable sources as well.
Yeah. It’s called a drought…
As you have observed, a large part of our renewable portfolio is dams and hydro. Unfortunately, some government geniuses believed the broken statements that we were going to have lots more storms due to AGW and dumped a Pot Load of water out to the ocean. Others dumped a load of water because they believed some fish needed it. Now most of the reservoirs are way low… just in time to need the water and power…
The bottom line is that the wind, geothermal, and solar facilities don’t change fast here in California, but the rain varies dramatically. Its our climate, er weather, er, that changing ocean and rain / snow stuff… and the weenees who decided that we didn’t need to store water in our water storage system…

May 26, 2009 4:15 pm

Fuelmaker,
Well, then, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. You state that “13 % renewables has doubled California’s energy cost and manufacturing has fled the state. “
Doubled from when? California’s electric power price is not that much different from the national average, per the EIA. And are you sure that power price is the reason for manufacturing fleeing the state? Surely it has something to do with high state income taxes, inability to retain workers due to high real estate prices, high cost of training workers who are functional illiterates due to the superb public schools in CA, and excess government regulations such as workman’s compensation insurance premiums, and unbearable environmental regulations?
“Energy storage schemes will pile on some more costs. Flywheel systems consume a lot of energy just to generate some “spinning reserve” in case the utility fails and you can’t stand to wait 10 seconds for your generators to start. The only energy storage system that works well is water behind a dam or refined fuels in a storage tank. A bottle of compressed air is good energy storage to spin a big engine to get it started.”
All of the ESS I mention in my blog, and above, work quite well. The only drawback is cost. And in many applications, as I wrote earlier, that 10 seconds of waiting without power for a diesel generator to crank up is worth the cost of a flywheel. You should be aware that SCE is installing large batteries for energy storage on Catalina Island, having just received a permit for those from AQMD. Batteries are not water behind a dam, nor refined fuels in a storage tank.
“If you represented the utilities and helped them get some nukes and coal plants sited, CA would still have a shot at avoiding bankruptcy.”
Are you really from California? If you are, and in the energy business, then you should know that new nuclear power plants were banned by law in California decades ago. More recently, new coal-fired plants were banned, effectively, but existing contracts to import coal-based power will be honored but not be renewed. How exactly do you propose that I help utilities get some nukes and coal plants sited, under those conditions? Can you obtain the votes in California to repeal those laws?
California’s bankruptcy is not an if, but a when. Utilities will play a very small part, if any part at all, in that bankruptcy. AB 32 is the primary cause, as history will record. A busted state budget system, with no ability to borrow money, and the federal government no longer passing out money, plus an electorate that just voted down the tax-raising measures, will also contribute.
I agree that California is headed for bankruptcy, and that is likely a good thing in the long run. This state is running up the deficit at the rate of $2 to $4 billion per month. No society can or should exist with 49 percent of the people paying the taxes, and 51 percent of the people controlling the votes. This place is long over-due for reform. Bankruptcy may be just what the doctor ordered.
“I don’t understand why you think the French Nuclear program is a “con”. You imply that they are subsidizing their neighbors by exporting nuclear electricity at a loss? I have never heard the French accused of irrational altruism.”
You are not alone in the confusion. Let me try to explain this “French nuclear con.” As I wrote on WUWT “Now That is A Commencement Speech,” (or similar wording), France now charges a low price for power, and exports some of that power. They can do that because their nuclear power plants were built at taxpayer expense, or in other words, subsidized.
Where people get conned is believing that utilities today can build new nuclear plants, even to the extent of obtaining 80 percent of all power sold in a country, and charge 2 cents per kwh. That cannot be done without massive government subsidies, with a new nuclear power plant costing $10,000 per kw, and more likely $12,000 per kw with the NRC requirement to withstand an impact from a large commercial aircraft.
If anyone does not believe this, please, take up my challenge from an earlier thread. Go to an investment company, ask them for $18 to $20 billion dollars for a twin-reactor nuclear power plant, tell them that no income will be headed their way for 6 to 8 years while you build the thing, and that you have a contract to sell all the power for 2 cents per kwh. Heck, make it 5 cents per kwh if you like.

Just Want Truth...
May 26, 2009 4:53 pm

ralph ellis (06:48:39) :
I agree with you that energy is not free and there is no such thing as a perpetual motion vehicle—at least none possible with current know how. What I was talking about was something said in the video I posted. Look from the 2:37 to 3:23 minute of this :

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