Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
After I’d published my previous post on the Hurst Exponent entitled A Way To Calculate Effective N, I got an email from Dan Hughes which contained a most interesting idea. He thought that it would be productive to compare the Hurst analysis of the records of weather phenomena such as temperatures and the like, with the Hurst analysis of the corresponding climate model outputs. He proposed that we take a look at the question and discuss and share our findings. Hey, what’s not to like?
Along the way, as such things happen, the topic of our discussion and investigation turned to a larger and more interesting question—`which of the various natural datasets (temperatures, rainfall, eruptions, pressures, etc) and/or the corresponding global climate model outputs are chaotic?
I must, of course, start with the obvious question … what is meant by “chaotic”? A chaotic system is a system wherein nearby initial states either converge or diverge exponentially. An example is the ocean surface. If you drop two sealed empty bottles overboard in mid-ocean, one on each side of a boat, they will drift apart over time. This separation will be slow at first, and then faster and faster as the two bottles encounter different winds and currents in different areas.
Whether a dataset is chaotic or not is generally assessed by looking at the Lyapunov exponent. This is a measure of the “stretching factor”. In our ocean example above, the stretching factor measures how fast the two points are moving apart over time. In a chaotic dataset, the stretching factor generally increases or decreases with time. In non-chaotic datasets, on the other hand, the stretching factor doesn’t vary with time. Figure 1 shows the “Lyapunov curves” of the evolution of the stretching factor with time for a variety of natural and calculated datasets.
Figure 1. Lyapunov curves for a variety of datasets. All datasets have been detrended and standardized before analysis.
Now, I’ve graphed four types of datasets above, indicated by the four colors. The first type, shown in red and mostly obscured by the blue lines, shows four different varieties of random numbers—normal, uniform, poisson, and high Hurst exponent fractional Gaussian random numbers. Basically the Lyapunov curves of the random number datasets are all plotting right on top of each other. Starting from time = 0, they climb rapidly to their maximum value and then just stay there. As we would expect from random data, there’s no trend in the stretching factor over time.
The next group, in blue, shows the Lyapunov curves for a half-dozen climate-related datasets, viz:
• HadCRUT4 Monthly Mean Surface Air Temperatures 1850-2015
• Annual Nilometer Minimum River Height 622-1284
• Stockholm Monthly Tides 1801-2001
• Central England Temperature Record Daily Maximum Temperatures 1878-2015
• Armagh Ireland Daily Mean Temperatures 1865-2001
• Annual Average Nile Flow, Cubic Metres/Sec 1870-1944
As you can see, in terms of the Lyapunov analysis, all six of these climate-related datasets (blue lines) are indistinguishable from the four random datasets (red lines), which in turn are indistinguishable from each other. None of them show any trace of chaotic behavior.
Another group of datasets, those at the bottom in gold colors, are quite different from the random and the observational datasets. They are a variety of chaotic datasets. Note that they all share a common factor—as mentioned above, over time the rate of separation (as measured by the “stretching factor”) increases. The rate of separation doesn’t just go to a certain high point and stay there like the random or climate-related datasets did. The rate of separation in chaotic datasets continues to rise over time.
Finally, there are a couple of other datasets in purple. These show observations of phenomena that are usually thought of as “forcings”. One is changes in the solar activity, with daily sunspots as a proxy for the activity, from 1880 to 2015. The other is annual aerosol optical depth from 800 to 2000, which is generally a function of volcanic action and is calculated from ice core data. Curiously, these two datasets plot somewhere in between the random observations at the top, and the chaotic datasets at the bottom. In addition, both of them show significant variation in stretching factor over time. The sunspots have a slight but significant increase. The aerosol optical depth goes down and then looks like it’s starting back up. So it seems that these two datasets are weakly chaotic.
Now, these results were a great surprise to me. I’ve long believed, without ever checking it, that the climate was chaotic … however, this analysis shows that at least those six observational datasets that I analyzed above are not chaotic in the slightest. Hey, what do I know … I was born yesterday.
Are there any climate datasets which are chaotic, even weakly chaotic? I think so. It appears that tropical ocean temperatures are weakly chaotic … but that’s a question for the next post, which will look into Dan Hughes’s idea regarding the use of the Hurst analysis to distinguish between chaotic and non-chaotic datasets.
Regards to everyone,
w.
MY USUAL REQUEST: If you disagree with someone, please quote the exact words you disagree with. That way, we can all understand the exact nature of your objection.
CODE: To calculate the Lyapunov exponent I’ve used the lyap_k function from the R package tseriesChaos. Here are the functions I used to make Figure 1:
lineout=function(col="black",testdata=testdata,line0=F,lwd=3,s=110){
output <-lyap_k(scale(dtrendlin(testdata)), m=3, d=2, s=s, t=40, ref=100, k=4, eps=4)
lines(output,main="",cex.main=.95,col=col,lwd=lwd)
invisible(output)
}
plotout=function(col="black",testdata=testdata,line0=T,lwd=3,s=110){
output <-lyap_k(scale(dtrendlin(testdata)), m=3, d=2, s=s, t=40, ref=100, k=4, eps=4)
plot(output,main="",cex.main=.95,new=F,ylim=c(-6,1),col=col,lwd=lwd,
ylab="Log(Stretching Factor)")
if (line0) abline(h=c(0,1),lty="dotted")
invisible(output)
}
dtrendlin=function(timeseries,doplot=FALSE){
outseries=timeseries
thelm=lm(timeseries~time(timeseries))
thegood=which(is.finite(timeseries))
outseries[thegood]=outseries[thegood]-thelm$fit
if (doplot){
plot(outseries)
}
outseries
}
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Very interesting. I’ve always felt that the true chaos of climate comes from the interaction of the various systems – that is, taken in isolation, I can say that A will lead to B. But when A and B also interact with C, all bets are off. Looking forward to your future posts.
Is model output chaotic wrt inputs?
The solution of the 3-body problem is chaotic but the position of the centre of gravity is not. Looking at smoothed curves could well mask the chaotic nature of the underlying system.
Is this true? Can you elaborate? Or provide a reference?
It seems to me that location of the center of mass is a simple function of the location of the three body masses; these latter three locations are chaotic by definition. How can one prove the “average” of these three chaotic paths is a non-chaotic path?
Apply the law of conservation of momentum as the centre of mass of the 3 particles is not acted on by any external force to the 3-body system hence its motion continues unchanged.
I’m more inclined to think that you are looking at too short a time period. Try a period that includes several ice ages. I am beginning to think that the climate is a chaotic system with two stable points: temperate and ice age.
I believe the chaotic system has three attractors: Warm (dinasours, huge ferns, lots of water), Temperate (anything from the Roman warm period to the Maunder minimum) and Cold (ice age). I’d rather have warmer than colder.
\Delta T_s = \lambda \cdot RF is very similar to x_{n+1}=rx_n(1-x_n), yet the warmist readily admit the later is chaotic, but deny the former is.
Are we not living inside a thermodynamic heat engine? I think the answer is a big YES! And the climate is a physical & observable representation of entropy.
Could you do the same for the Greenland GISP ice core for the holocene (and sub-periods therein)? Would be interesting to see what behavior there is on longer timescales.
Could you – or someone – do the same for the Greenland GISP ice core for the Holocene (and sub-periods therein)?
Fixed.
W. is my age (ish, OK).
Spread the load.
Have a grand week-end.
Auto
A few thoughts/questions.
A system doesn’t have to be chaotic to be unpredictable.
Weather does seem to be truly chaotic (within certain boundaries).
Can a system with multiple co-dependent positive and negative feedbacks NOT be chaotic?
Any ‘system’ (needing a lot more precise definition) with the following two attributes is by definition mathematically chaotic. But that statement still does not define the time scales on which chaos becomes evidenced.
1. Feedbacks. These make the system nonlinear.
2. Feedback time lags (feedbacks do not operate instanstaneously). That makes the feedbacks time dependent.
It is time dependent feedbacks that define chaotic systems.
Now, with respect to weather, feedbacks are self evident. Willis tropical Tstorm thermoregulator is but one example. But we can have rip-roaring good arguments about what ‘time dependent’ means in a climate/weather context. An instant? An hour? A single diurnal cycle…? For my peer reviewed paper showing chaos in a large assembly plant, the least time interval turned out to be one shift. Anything less was ‘instantaneous’ and did not result in chaos. The ‘system definition’ matters.
1. Feedbacks. These make the system nonlinear.
Feedback can be a very linear thing. You have confused something here. In order for a system to be chaotic, it must have feed back (sort of). Just because it has feedback doesn’t mean it is either nonlinear or chaotic.
2. Feedback time lags (feedbacks do not operate instanstaneously). That makes the feedbacks time dependent.
Nope. TIme lags are not required, per se. This is a swing and a miss. Many systems have time lags and are not chaotic.
This is why I think Willis does WUWT a disservice. Because he encourages these sorts of posts. The poor guy who asked the question, “Can a system with multiple co-dependent positive and negative feedbacks NOT be chaotic?” and gets a BS response. He is baffled by the BS, because it’s BS, and has to deal with figuring it out for himself.
“Can a system with multiple co-dependent positive and negative feedbacks NOT be chaotic?”
It depends on what you mean by co-dependent. It is entirely possible either way. To investigate your thinking, write out your transfer function and see if there are any “cross terms”.
Excellent thread, Willis. I’m looking forward to further analysis of this by you and Dan. On other threads, in response to the inimitable Dr. Robert Brown, I believe I have been the only one, or one of few that have taken issue with the dismissive idea that climate is essentially chaotic. My view comes NOT from mathematical analysis, which I am pleased is being done here, but from the relatively few different types of days (10?) I’ve experienced over almost 80yrs (~30,000days). Weather has a small deck of cards that it deals out and the conditions that give rise to these days are not much of a surprise. In eastern Ontario, we know what we are in for with a strong northwest wind in fall, winter and spring and southerlies from the Gulf of Mexico or the wet nor’easters that we get the tail end of from the Atlantic.
Yes, climate is a complex subject with coupling of all its parts and physical states. And yes, at the molecular level it must be chaotic. And yes, weather forecasts ‘deteriorate’ by the end of a week. But what follows this forecast, I’ve probably seen 3000 times. I think this gives an inkling of a possibility in the future for more deterministic forecasting.
“at the molecular level it must be chaotic”
No. At the molecular level it is random. Random is not chaotic. This is the fundamental area where Wiliis has failed. He does not understand the difference between random and chaotic, hence he conflates the two and then confuses people.
“No. At the molecular level it is random. Random is not chaotic.”
Disagree. What appears at first blush to be random, if examined, will reveal a lower level of order. Examining that order will find at its root what appear to be one or more chaotic elements, which upon close examination will actually be underlain by lower level order. Whether this continues ad infinitum I don’t know.
At best we can say that things we do not understand appear to be random. The behaviour (future states) of chaotic systems are hard to predict, not unpredictable.
Like the two bottles released in the ocean that drift apart, if at some instance we could clone a parallel universe to ours in which the only difference was an extra flap of a butterfly wing anywhere in the parallel Earth, then we could observe that the weather systems between the two Earths would eventually diverge.
You can disagree as much as you want but Einstein did some of his best work deriving from first principles the equations explaining Brownian motion. Go ahead. Find his error. We are all waiting. There’s a Nobel prize waiting for you at the end of your investigation.
Dinostratus
October 23, 2015 at 11:14 pm
“No. At the molecular level it is random.”
Well in crystallization of water and nearly all elements of the universe, gather themselves together in wonderful order, each creating crystals of a class that we can predict for them in future crystal growth based on basic “stacking” geometries. When a granite crystallizes, the details are remarkable. Potash and sodium ions will pass each other in the liquid on their way to attach to aluminum silicon and oxygen to form two different feldspars. The provenance of unattached individual species and the level of crystallization of the melt results in “shortages” of certain elements for the simple feldspars and crystallization of different alkali-alumino-silicates species perforce organize themselves and some substitution occurs in given species as a “second” choice
You have to define more narrowly the randomness in this ordered picture. You are likely right that there is no way to predict which individual molecules of a population will form part of a given crystal ordered arrangement, although I would suggest that the nearest ones to the crystallization site has the best chance to be ‘selected. You random guys play around too much with a mix of colored balls in a jar in your understanding of what is random.
Let me offer, perhaps, a new idea: random itself means infinitely chaotic!!!
Crispin in Waterloo but really in Beijing
October 24, 2015 at 7:28 am Yes, you get it
noaaprogrammer
October 24, 2015 at 8:45 am
Well, duh!
Well that surprised me.
I’ve always assumed that weather and climate are chaotic.
Weather is still the epitome of a chaotic system, right? So how can the long-term integral of weather not be chaotic?
This confuses me.
One of the standard illustrations of chaos theory is the “Butterfly Effect”. In a short timeframe weather can still be chaotic, but this suggests that in the long term all the butterflies in China can’t melt a glacier in Greenland.
MCourtney, all chaotic systems are still bounded by their strange attractors in N-1 Poincare space. Buzz Lightyear’s “to infinity and beyond” does not happen.
Local weather may well be chaotic, but as one averages over larger regions and time frames this can get ‘buried’ in non-chaotic macrophenomena. As an example, Feigenbaum’s thesis on chaotic bifurcations looked at dripping water faucets. Regular drips, then a different pace of regular drips (quickening, a bifurcation event) then erratic drips (chaos), then back to slow steady drips. Transitions through 3 attractors. BUT, if you integrate the volume of water lost over suffcient time, guess what, a predicable non-chaotic value for the leak per unit time (say a day). Defining the system is an important part of saying what might be technically chaotic. Individual drip timing, yes; water loss over sufficient time, no. Mocroturbulence and drag over an airplane wing, yes since governed by Navier Stokes; calculation of average lift for the wing at some speed, no. Or we would not have flying machines. Same idea.
Since climate is the average of weather over at least 30 years, it is quite possible observed ‘bulk’ climate is not chaotic in the mathematical sense, while still possible that the climate models which simulate it are.
I think you need much more evidence to convince me that 1. weather being chaotic, 2. weather being an instance of climate, the climate would not be chaotic simply due to chaotic being self-similar at multiple scales. You are like Willis and most people confusing Chaotic a mathematical quality with erratic behavior a physical quality; some very chaotic system have long periods of periodic behavior. As far as sensitive dependence on initial conditions go, it’s not about how many butterflies as much as it’s about the correct butterfly.
If the long term integral is not chaotic, that means it is stable.
Yes. And that is what ristvan implies.
That the weather has a strange attractor that makes temperature, air pressure, cloud cover (etc.) consistent in the long term.
Or the medium term as it must have at least two strange attractors in the long term to create both now and ice ages.
But… how the, what the, Wow!
That is weird.
We still have weather.
Not necessarily stable, but predictable. Could be natural oscillation, like apparently Arctic ice. Essay Northwest Passage, in part. All still bounded given whatever time frame.
The function lyap_k estimates the largest Lyapunov exponent of a given scalar time series using the algorithm of Kantz. This implies that your plots are of the MLE (maximum Lyapunov exponent). The normal interpretation of the MLE for a time series is as follows: Negative Lyapunov exponents are characteristic of dissipative or non-conservative systems; A Lyapunov exponent of zero indicates that the system is in some sort of steady state mode; A positive MLE is usually taken as an indication that the system is chaotic (provided some other conditions are met, e.g., phase space compactness). How did you arrive at your interpretation of the results?
Willis, I know nothing of Lyapunov curves. It would be helpful if you could give a layman’s definition. However, it seems to me that all climate variables are chaotic, within the bounds of the climate in question. Example: for over the past century years, temperature in Los Angeles in January never exceeded 95°F and never fell below 28°F. But nobody can predict, within a degree or two, what the high and low temperature will be next January.
According to Wikipedia chaos is: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future. Systems are chaotic if very small difference in initial conditions yield widely different outcomes. It is this feature that make climate hard to predict and even harder to model. If you expanded your curves so we could better see the ups and downs, we should see chaos, as we see in the aerosol optical depth curves. Optical depth is greatly influenced by volcanic action. I don’t think anyone would claim that volcanos occur in a regular and predictable manner.
Why does the curve for “Rossier Chaotic” cycle with timescale?
I am not skilled in R so cannot be precise, but something here does not make general sense. The Maximal Lyapunov Exponent (there are many Lyapunovs in a complex phase space, the maximal one being diagnostic because it eventually swamps all lesser Lyapunovs–just a way to quantify sensitive dependence on inital comditions, the ‘butterfly effect’) is diagnostic of chaos iff it is positive. Figure 1 shows several presumably ‘chaotic’ datasets (deep yellows) with negative Lyapunov exponents. Ordinarily, negative Lyapunov exponents are indicative of non-chaotic damped dissipative oscillatory systems, like a weight on a spring or a free swinging pendulum (the classic first year physics examples). And, the random data (obviously not a chaotic system) has a positive Y value when it arguably should be zero. And, the Lyapunov value is normally extracted from a time series as a single number over entire series extent, not a value that changes with length of time series. Perhaps Fig 1 y axis is not the MLE? But then it is not a mathematically proven diagnostic of true chaos.
Ordinarly I would like to be more helpful than to merely point out something that appears out of kilter. No time for more study this week, and no desire to learn R to maybe understand what might be off.
I saw a definition of a chaotic system. I do not know what a chaotic dataset is. Is a sequence of random numbers chaotic? Can you have a two-dimensional chaotic dataset? Where can I find a definition of a “chaotic dataset”?
I have little knowledge about chaos theory, and I’m probably not using the right wording, but what if the climate variables are /constrained/ chaotic? A bit like having a bunch of elastic balls that are bouncing in a box? The position of each ball over time is chaotic (highly dependent of initial position), but none of the balls ever make it outside the box.
FJ, Long ago I wrote a paper applying chaos theory to microeconomics (productivity) with a real world factory example. All chaotic systems are still bounded by their strange attractors. Those constrain any chaotic system. See my comments above for further clarification.
You’ve described a random system. Not a chaotic system. Random !=chaotic.
Yes, my thoughts on chaos in weather have been modified by recent understanding of SSW (sudden stratospheric warming). That is, our problem has been ignorance. Probably we still don’t know the whole of it, and it only seems chaotic.
Brett
Until a few years ago people were not aware of giant waves that could swallow ships. Similarly you can add heat pulses to the panoply of things we really know nothing about. A heat pulse caused an unexpected temperature of 164 degrees f a few years ago in Portugal
There are lots of things we do not yet really know much about
Tonyb
Tony, rogue waves only seem chaotic because rare. They are just the interference patterns of two non-parallel otherwise well behaved non-chaotic oscillatory wave patterns. In that sense, they are predictable (in theory) and mathematically non-chaotic.
BTW rogue waves are truly scary. Happen all the time on the Great Lakes because of the bathtub effect (regular waves hit shore at an angle, reflect at the opposite angle, then interfere up to 5 miles offshore!). Took my 36 foot sailboat through some Lake Michigan 15 footers a day I hope never to repeat. Three feet of blue water over the battened topsides and into my chest behind the wheel aft. Broke the back of the Edmund Fitzgerald on the east end of Lake Superior; Famous song by Gordon Lightfoot.
Um. My mother already knew the climate was chaotic 50 years ago. You never know when you’re going to need your jumper, or an umbrella.
This was done a decade or two ago, and if my memory serves me correctly, the comparison was not too favorable at that time. I will try to find the paper. I can’t even recall the journal it was in.
By “this” I mean a comparison of Hurst exponents.
Thanks, Kevin. I’d be interested in seeing whatever you have regarding the use of hurst exponents. I’m using the method of Koutsoyiannis, so my view will be different, but I’m always interested in prior art.
w.
It’s quite a while since I worked on chaotic systems, but I’d say that your quest to characterize the weather/climate via Lyapunov exponents is doomed. Typical chaotic systems can be described by just a few dynamical variables, certainly less than 10, e.g., the Lorenz equations which only have three variables. When there are a large number of dynamical variables it’s more realistic to simply characterize the system as turbulent or random.
A simple example is provided by experiments done on Rayleigh-Benard convection where a fluid cell is heated from below and held at constant temperature at the top. When the heating is small there is no convection. Once the bottom plate is warm enough simple periodic convection cells develop. As the heating is increased the cells become more complex and the period doubles. A bit more heating results in more complexity and another doubling of the period. Eventually after just a slight bit more heating the motion becomes chaotic and can still be described as a low dimensional system with Lyapunov exponents. However, a little bit more heating and it becomes turbulent and you can no longer characterize the fluid motion by a chaotic attractor and Lyapunov exponents. In principle, solving the Navier-Stokes equations of fluid dynamics would explain all this. In practice, meh. Compare and contrast to the weather, which is also supposed to be described by the NS equations.
If you do compute the Lyapunov exponents it’s very important to sample the time series at the correct rate, just as with data that is going to be used for a Fourier transform. A chaotic systems has to be sampled at three times the rate of the longest period in the signal rather than twice the period if a Fourier series is what you want. You are also assuming that the time series that you are sampling actually contains information from all the underlying dynamical variables. This is a stretch when you don’t understand the system, i.e., the weather.
A more fruitful avenue for time series analysis might be to simply compare the power spectra of weather data with the climate models, if you can somehow extract that information from the models. I seem to remember that there was a Physical Review Letters article that did that and found that there was no similarity.
Yes and there’s many indications from various papers that there are hundred and thousand year or more periods in climate, and we have decent data for most of them for about 135 years… (really good data for 36 years…)
So like Fourier Analysis do you need to window the data as well? I note that Willis detrended the data but that’s not the same thing as windowing.
I (and probably Willis) would appreciate a link to the common mistakes of Lyapunov exponent calculations. I know the ones for Fourier analysis pretty well. I assume there’d be a similar checklist.
Peter
Here’s a great paper at extracting any useful spectra and temporal spectra from SST. It shows there’s no useful information save ENSO. I’d love to see this same method used for all the other common climate data. Or maybe it’s time for me to learn R and see if there’s a decent wavelet library:
http://paos.colorado.edu/research/wavelets/bams_79_01_0061.pdf
IMHO I believe this paper invalidates all attempts to correlate temperature to geomagnetic, solar, (pick your favorite data), because correlating with noise is a waste of time…
Peter
paullinsay,
“A more fruitful avenue for time series analysis might be to simply compare the power spectra of weather data with the climate models, if you can somehow extract that information from the models. I seem to remember that there was a Physical Review Letters article that did that and found that there was no similarity.”
I’ve read a number of papers in the literature on this. At short times scale (up to about a month) both the data and the models show red noise (power goes as 1/f^2) as expected for a chaotic process. At longer times scales (up to a few decades) both show near white noise (power independent of frequency) as expected for a random process. On even longer times (centuries on up) models continue to show near white noise while data show red noise. If you want to search for this stuff, a good name to start with is S. Lovejoy.
Interesting. I’m slowly working a project to try and set confidence intervals for a signal against the “is it noise” null hypothesis, for both frequency and time domain.
If you have something better than a google phrase I’d sure appreciate it. Modeling the noise spectrum of signal is pretty important, and if AR1 isn’t going to do it then I’ll need to work out another method.
Also this says something subtly important about the climate models..
Peter
Excellent response.
“power spectra of weather data” It appears random. No one AFAIK has been able to show a low dimensional attractor for weather/climate data. Judith Curry and Marcia Wyatt did a great job with the stadium wave but that’s about it.
“A simple example is provided by experiments done on Rayleigh-Benard convection where a fluid cell is heated from below and held at constant temperature at the top. When the heating is small there is no convection. Once the bottom plate is warm enough simple periodic convection cells develop.”
There is a small chapter on this in “Convective Heat Transfer” by Adrian Bejan, 2005. Some cell patterns are shown and formulae given for transfer rates etc. The gap between plates has to be pretty small compared with the area. Whether the atmosphere qualifies as analogous or not, look and form an opinion. Bejan feels the problem of heat flux through the atmosphere to space was so simple it was not even interesting and dropped the subject. The atmosphere has far more capacity to self-govern the temperature (storm thermals and clouds) than our capacity to perturb it. Plus ‘space’ is not a plate constraining thermals’ vertical height anymore than GHG’s are a sheet of glass.
A beautiful question.
Is the time span shown adequate to address that question?
Given the planet cycles from ice age to not ice age,maybe it is bipolar instead.
trying to remember Chiefio’s post on lunar cycles and long term planetary weather cycles.
If you want to know what chaos is, ask Maxwell Smart. But in reality I can say just one thing regarding these findings. Mathematics can imitate reality but it can not reproduce it. It’s an analog world, not a digital one, so it comes as no surprise that real world chaos doesn’t necessarily reproduce in math. If the climate wasn’t chaotic, the models would have it projected already, we could read an almanac from some past year and know exactly what to expect 10 years from now.
Algorithms executing on digital computers are: analog ? digital ? mathematics ? … ?
“Another group of datasets, those at the bottom in gold colors, are quite different from the random and the observational datasets. They are a variety of chaotic datasets. Note that they all share a common factor—as mentioned above, over time the rate of separation (as measured by the “stretching factor”) increases. The rate of separation doesn’t just go to a certain high point and stay there like the random or climate-related datasets did. The rate of separation in chaotic datasets continues to rise over time.”
What does ‘time’ represent for those datasets? If you look at those at the small enough temporal scale, on some portions, it might look as not increasing.
I wonder of randomness is a better word than chaotic?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness
Tonyb
No as it isn’t random either.
Don’t confuse randomness with chaos. In English they sound like synonyms but in math they are entirely separate concepts.
As noted in above posts, chaos is notable when there’s only a few variables, when the system is defined by approximately > 10 variables the system tends to be dominated by randomness. Which is yet another reason why I believe all “X is correlated with Y” for natural phenomena should include a Monte Carlo simulation against the correct spectrum of noise…
(BTW Willis, you do get a similar curve with pink noise… right?)
Peter
Willis conflates random with chaotic in his ocean bottle example. They are different.
I was a student of the late George Marsaglia, an expert in pseudo random number generators and the tests they must pass, and he philosophically maintained that it was not possible to mathematically define our “intuitive idea of true randomness” as opposed to pseudo randomness for a sequence of bits uniformly distributed. I even argued with him about obtaining “true” randomness from natural sources such as a noisy diode or quantum-level phenomena, but he always maintained that any process for obtaining such bits would introduce biases.
There is a website, Random.org, which provides “true” random numbers based on atmospheric noise picked up by radios tuned between broadcasting stations; but the website still italicizes the adjective “true” modifying “randomness.”
So I guess my question is, until there is an agreed-upon mathematical definition for true randomness, (or a proof that such a definition is impossible, and hence its existence is axiomatic), how can we precisely define the difference that definitely exists between chaotic phenomena and random phenomena? –and what influence does one have on the other?
Great question. A chaotic system as a finite, non-integer dimensionality.
I just realized, you were looking for an answer using the concept of information, yes?
I question the usefulness of your analysis. The Lyapunov exponent is defined in terms of the closeness of trajectories of the system. To define this you need to describe what the system is and what it means for two states of the system to be close to one another.
In this context I would say that the climate as a whole is the system. Individual measurements of climatic variables are not the system. They just measure one dimension of it. Consider for example temperature at a single location. Two different days may have the same temperature at that location. But those days could be very different in other respects. One could be wet and stormy, the other fine and clear. In one the winds could be blowing from the east. In the other from the west. The future evolution of the temperature at that site seems to me to be likely to be much more strongly influenced by these variables you have not measured than by the inherent ‘stretchiness’ of temperature.
In conclusion I don’t think Lyapunov analysis can be meaninfully applied unless you do it in multiple dimensions with a measure of closeness that uses all important variables and not only one of them.
“Individual measurements of climatic variables are not the system”
That is correct but the dimensionality appears in all state variables and their derivatives. One can’t describe a system in term of one state variable and its derivatives but one can define the dimensionality of the attractor and hence decide if the system is chaotic or not.
I threw a large rock in the ocean. How many times will I throw that rock? Will it be the same exact shaped rock? Will I throw it exactly with the same force and in the exact same position and in periodic intervals? Is that chaotic or random? It depends on what happens when convergence and divergence are happening. Next I’m going to blow bubbles in the ocean. Maybe I’ll splash around. Maybe the rock is only 0.04 meters wide, maybe it’s 4 km wide.
Mark one side of the rock heads. The other tails. Flip the rock. If it lands heads it’s chaotic and tails it’s random.
it was a squared rock
Interesting post from Andrew Bolt this morning about PM Turnbull presenting an award to a sceptical sounding scientist. I hope this may fit this Willis post.
Here is the post————–
Warmist Turnbull gives prize to scientist for questioning warming catastrophism
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Andrew Bolt
–, Friday, October, 23, 2015, (6:33am)
Malcolm Turnbull, a warmist, has seen his Prime Minister’s Prize for Science go to Professor Graham Farquhar for his work on photosynthesis.
Farquhar has won for work that actually challenges the apocalyptic global warming models we’re told not to question:
Professor Farquhar has also worked to unravel the mystery of why wind speeds and evaporation rates appear to be slowing under climate change, a phenomenon that goes against most climate modelling.
“We studied the meteorological records at all these sites and discovered from the physics of it that it was actually the wind speed going down that was causing the majority of decrease in evaporative demand,” he said.
He said the discovery meant climate change could be a lot wetter than many people realised.
That’s actually good.
In fact, Farquhar sees even more good in man-made warming:
“My reckoning is that if we could get rid of all the anthropogenic carbon dioxide emitted since the industrial revolution, then agricultural productivity would drop by 15%,” he says.
(Thanks to reader Rafe Champion.)
My guess (as a total amateur) is that the system is multi-cyclical, with temporal variances dependent upon the galactic and heliospheric orientation of the planet, plus chaotic events thrown in for the fun of it.
Sorry, should have said “with temporal variance of each cycle dependant”, etc.
Let me restate that (as a plebe) and say that the ‘system of global climate’ appears to me to be multi-cyclical, with the frequency and amplitude of the various cycles governed by the orbital and heliospheric influences exerted upon the planet. probably still greatly oversimplified, but not so naively monocausal as the CO2 reradiation theory.
This also begs the question (for the greens) as to whether human proliferation is a “chaotic event”.