Guest post by Bob Irvine
SUMMARY
This paper outlines an idea or hypothesis that should be discussed. This idea has the huge advantage of being supported by all the available data both from over the last thousand years or more, the last 60 or 70 years and the last 20 years.
We have a chance here to solve the global warming debate and standoff. It is quite possible that both sides of the debate have some truth on their side. I believe there is a strong case that the climate sensitivity or temperature response to a given forcing not only depends on the size of that forcing but also on the nature of that forcing. I have attempted to mount a case for the idea that a given LONG WAVE GHG forcing will have considerably lower temperature response than a similar SHORT WAVE solar forcing.
The alarmists may well be correct. There is a lot of evidence from the Last Glacial Maxima and Volcanoes and other areas that climate sensitivity is quite high (about 0.8, i.e. requil. T=0.8xrF). Certainly, this can be seen on geological scales. These estimates are based on Short Wave Solar Forcings. The trouble starts when they try to apply these high sensitivities to the enormous increase in Long Wave GHG forcing that has occurred in the last 60 or 70 years. They mistakenly assume that a given GHG forcing will have the same equilibrium temperature response as a similar Solar Forcing and then find it difficult or impossible to make the meagre temperature response over recent years fit their high sensitivities.
The riddle is neatly solved if we accept the concept of “Effective Climate Forcing”. In other words, we accept that a given Long Wave GHG Forcing has a lower climate sensitivity than a similar Short Wave Solar Forcing. It is in fact intuitively unlikely that these two forcings have the same efficacy as is assumed by the IPCC and others.
INTRODUCTION
The efficacy of a given forcing is an estimate of its efficiency in provoking an equilibrium temperature response in the earth’s system. The IPCC and others assume that a given change in GHG forcing will produce a temperature response that is approximately equal to the temperature response from a similar change in solar forcing.
That this is not necessarily the case is discussed in the literature. Joshi et al 2003, Hansen and Nazarenko 2004 and Shine et al 2003 all conclude that the same forcing can have a different temperature response depending on its nature or geographic location.
Forster and Taylor 2006, “Climate Forcings and Climate Sensitivities Diagnosed from Coupled Climate Model Integrations “ make the case that ”Effective Climate Forcing” is a much more useful way of estimating climate sensitivity than conventional; one size fits all, Radiative Forcing. They make their case succinctly in the following quote;
“Imagine, for example, that the atmosphere alone (perhaps through some cloud change unrelated to any surface temperature response) quickly responds to a large radiative forcing to restore the flux imbalance at the TOA (Top Of Atmosphere), yielding a small effective climate forcing. In this case the ocean would never get a chance to respond to the initial Radiative forcing, so the resulting climate response would be small and this would be consistent with our diagnosed “effective climate forcing” rather than the conventional “Radiative forcing.”
In the quote above a shorter response time at the TOA produces a lower climate sensitivity. Hansen, Sato and Kharecha confirm and support this in their paper “Earth’s Energy Imbalance and Implications”, by saying
“On a planet with no ocean or only a mixed layer ocean, the climate response time is proportional to climate sensitivity. ………..Hansen et al (1985) show analytically, with ocean mixing approximated as a diffusive process, that the response time increases as the square of climate sensitivity.”
If it can be shown that the restoration of the flux imbalance at the TOA is quicker for a perturbation in GHG forcing than it is for a similar perturbation in solar forcing, then this would imply a lower climate sensitivity for GHG forcing than solar forcing.
DISCUSSION
It is in fact intuitively unlikely that the earth’s system would respond in almost exactly the same way to a change in Long Wave GHG forcing as it would to a change in Short Wave solar forcing, as the IPCC and others assume.
It is established physics that Long wave Radiation from GHGs only penetrates the oceans to a depth of a fraction of a millimetre. The oceans are virtually opaque to these wave lengths. Short Wave solar radiation, on the other hand, penetrates the ocean to a depth of 10 meters or more and it is counter intuitive to assume that this established fact would have close to zero effect on flux imbalance restoration times at the TOA.
Despite this matter being pivotal to any understanding of the earth’s climate response to increasing Anthropogenic GHGs (AGHG), I have been unable to find any literature supporting the IPCC’s position that solar forcing and GHG forcing have the same efficacy after the ocean/ atmosphere interface has been considered. The references mentioned by the IPCC in their reports only refer to the global nature of the two forcings and only take into account feedbacks that are related to a temperature response. These do not apply in this case. Basically, the fact that the oceans are opaque to GHGs is due to the nature of the forcing and not accounted for if the feedbacks considered are only related to a temperature response. Similarly, to assume, as the IPCC does, that GHG forcing and Solar forcing have the same “effective climate forcing” simply because they are both global in nature, also, does not take account of the opaqueness of the oceans to the wave length reemitted by GHGs.
The blogosphere does make an attempt at explaining the IPCC’s position. The only defence I am aware of is that the top fraction of a millimetre of the ocean is heated up by the Long Wave Radiation (LWR) reemitted by GHGs. This then acts as a blanket slowing the release of energy from the ocean, thereby effectively warming the ocean by nearly exactly the same amount as a similar solar forcing that penetrates the ocean to a depth of 10 meters or more.
Not only is it highly improbable that these two entirely different mechanisms would have almost exactly the same effect on OHC (Ocean Heat Content), but it can be shown by means of a simple experiment, (Appendix 1), that nearly all the Long Wave GHG energy is returned almost immediately to the atmosphere and space as latent heat of evaporation. It, therefore, has little effect on OHC. It is, also, likely that the restoration of the flux imbalance at the TOA is quicker for a perturbation in GHG forcing than it is for a similar perturbation in solar forcing.
It is apparent that the situation described in the Forster and Taylor (2006) quote above is relevant to GHG forcing. In short, the” Effective Climate Forcing” of a GHG change is likely to be considerably less than the “Effective Climate Forcing” of a similar solar change.
CORROBORATION
It is an intriguing possibility that both sides of the Global Warming debate could be correct to some extent. The IPCC and others estimate climate sensitivity by reference to three factors, none of which apply to climate sensitivity derived from a GHG forcing.
These three factors are;
- They use “Absolute Radiative Forcing” instead of “Effective Radiative Forcing” (Forster and Gregory 2006)
- They use sensitivities based on Solar Forcing which clearly do not apply to GHG Forcing. For example, sensitivities calculated from the Last Glacial Maxima (LGM) or volcanoes are essentially based on Solar Forcing and, therefore, do not apply to GHG Forcing. (Annan & Hargreaves 2006).
- They use feedbacks that are dependent on an initial temperature response and, therefore, do not take account of the opaqueness of the oceans to Long Wave Radiation from GHGs. (All the Global Climate Models , GCMS)
The IPCC and others may have produced some good science that gives reasonably accurate climate sensitivity estimates for a change in solar forcing. Unfortunately, these are unlikely to apply to a GHG Forcing.
Interestingly, Idso 98 uses real world experiments that, largely, do apply to GHG Forcing and their climate sensitivity is considerably lower than the IPCC’s consensus.
The sceptics, on the other hand, are fairly obviously quite correct when they say that the high sensitivities postulated by the alarmists do not fit with the measured temperature record of the 20th and 21st century.
The best way to show this lack of correlation is to compare the amount of energy put into the system by human GHGs, as represented by equilibrium temperature, with actual temperature as measured in the thermometer age since 1880.
The green line in Fig. 1 equates to a sensitivity of 0.8 (rT = 0.8 x rF) which gives an equilibrium temperature increase of 3.0°C for a doubling of human CO2, the IPCC’s central position. In 2010 the difference between the green line and blue line (actual temperature) was an unlikely 1.4°C. If present trends continue, as is likely, that gap would be close to 2.0°C in 5 years’ time.
FIG, 1 The IPCC’s upper (purple), central (green) and lower (red) equilibrium temperature predictions using their climate sensitivity to forcing. The forcings were calculated for all the human GHGs using concentrations given in 4AR and the generally accepted conversion formula, rF=5.35xln(C/Co) WM-2 where C is current concentration and CO is starting concentration. These are compared with actual temperature (blue). For comparison purposes all graphs were zeroed in 1880.
NOTE; It is generally believed that equilibrium temperatures are approximately 1.5 times transient temperatures (4AR) and that aerosol cooling has masked any human induced GHG warming. These are the two factors the alarmists use to attempt to explain the gap between reality and the IPCC’s calculated equilibrium temperatures from AGHGs.
There are also major inconsistencies with the Ipcc’s explanation for the warming from 1910 to 1940. Bob Tisdale discusses these inconsistencies at WUWT on the 20th April 2013.
The only realistic explanation for this lack of correlation ( FIG, 1) is that the IPCC’s sensitivities are far too high and that the “Effective Radiative Forcing” for Long Wave GHGs is considerably lower than the “Effective Radiative Forcing “ for Short Wave solar.
APPENDIX 1
This experiment is attributed to Tallbloke and shows unequivocally that Long Wave radiation from GHGs has little or no effect on Ocean Heat Content. Short Wave Solar radiation, on the other hand, penetrates the oceans to a depth of ten meters or more and, therefore, adds significantly to OHC.
Konrad: Empirical test of ocean cooling and back radiation theory
Posted: August 25, 2011 by tallbloke in atmosphere, climate, Energy, Ocean dynamics
Some background –
Willis Eschenbach had a guest posting over at WUWT in which he claimed that LWIR could heat Earth’s oceans. Myself and several others on the thread contended that this LWIR was likely to be stopped by the evaporative skin layer and would not slow the exit of heat from the oceans. Numerous requests for empirical evidence to support Willis’s claim only resulted in one inapplicable study used by the “Hockey Team” to support such claims. After several hundred comments without empirical evidence being offered, I gave up reading and designed and conducted an empirical experiment that shows that any effect of backscattered LWIR on the cooling rate of water would be negligible.
What follows is an edited version of the experiment design and results as posted on the WUWT thread. I would encourage others to conduct similar experiments to check my results. The equipment required is not overly expensive and the results can be observed in minutes. The results appear to show the measurable difference between reflecting LWIR back to warm water when it is free to evaporatively cool and when it can only cool through conduction and radiation.
What is required –
– Two identical probe type digital thermometers with 0.1 degree resolution
– Two identical insulated water containers. I used rectangular 200ml Tupperware style containers, insulated on their base and sides with foil and Styrofoam. I cut away the clip on rim from each lid to create a frame to clip down cling film for Test B of the experiment.
– One IR reflector. I used an A4 sheet of 10mm Styrofoam with aluminium foil attached with spray adhesive.
– One IR window. I built an A4 size “picture frame” of 10mm square balsa wood strips and stretched cling film over it.
– One 1 litre measuring jug
– Two small identical computer fans. I used Suron 50mm centrifugal blowers powered by a 6v gel cell battery
– Extra cling film
– Optional extras – kitchen timer, an A4 ”dark cool sky” panel of matt black aluminium with peltier cooling, glamorous lab assistant of choice.
What to do –
– Position probe thermometers in identical positions in both water containers. I placed the tips 10mm below the water line by drilling force fit holes in the sides of the containers.
– Position IR reflector and IR window 50mm above either water container. You may need to build two Styrofoam side walls, but air must be free to move over the surface of the water. (The use of the IR window is to ensure that air flow is similar over each water container.)
– Position the computer fans to blow across the water surface of each container, but do not turn on.
– Fill jug with warm water, stir, then fill each water container from the bucket. I used water around 40C as the ceiling was around 18C not a 3k sky.
– When and equal amount of water is in each container, turn on the computer fans.
– Observe the temperature change over time for each tank. Less than half an hour is required for such a small amount of water. You should observe that both tanks cool a the same rate (TEST A).
– Now the important bit – Repeat the experiment, but this time lay a small sheet of cling wrap on the surface of the water in each water tank. This allows cooling through radiation and conduction but prevents evaporation. You do not need the computer fans on in this test. You should be able to observe that while both containers cool slower than before, water under the IR reflector cools slowest (TEST B).
Interpretation –
In TEST A the water cools more quickly, however the two water containers temperatures remain very close to each other over time. This indicates that backscattered LWIR has a very limited effect on the rate of cooling for water when it is free to evaporatively cool.
In TEST B both water containers cool more slowly than test A, but a divergence in temperature between the two water containers is readily detectable. The container under the foil sky cools more slowly than that under the cling wrap sky. This indicates that backscattered LWIR from a warm material can slow the rate at which that material cools, if radiation and conduction are the only methods for cooling.
Test A represents the evaporative cooling conditions in the real oceans. Test B represents how the climate scientists have modelled the oceans with regard to backscattered LWIR. From what I have observed, backscattered LWIR can slow the rate at which substances cool. However in the case of liquid water that is free to cool evaporatively this effect is dramatically reduced. It would appear that including the oceans in the percentage of Earth’s surface that could be affected by backscattered LWIR may be a serious error. Earth’s oceans cover 71% of the planets surface. If backscattered LWIR cannot measurably affect liquid water, then CO2 cannot cause dangerous or catastrophic global warming.
I have conducted further tests using a “cold sky” panel cooled with ice water over the top of the cling film IR window. While the temperature divergence in the evaporation restricted test B does not appear faster, it does appear to diverge for longer.
I would encourage others to conduct similar empirical experiments and share their observations. I would be interested in comments in further experimental design, or empirical evidence related to the LWIR question.
Typical TEST A
| Time | Cling Wrap Screen | Foil screen |
| 0 | 37.1 | 37.1 |
| 5 | 33.2 | 33.2 |
| 10 | 29.4 | 29.4 |
| 15 | 27 | 26.9 |
| 20 | 25.5 | 25.5 |
| 25 | 24.5 | 24.5 |
Typical TEST B
| Time | Cling Wrap Screen | Foil screen |
| 0 | 38.2 | 38.2 |
| 5 | 36.3 | 36.6 |
| 10 | 34.8 | 35.3 |
| 15 | 33.5 | 34.2 |
| 20 | 32.6 | 33.4 |
| 25 | 31.5 | 32.6 |
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One can go a step further and propose that the pressure of the atmosphere on the ocean surface sets the energy cost of a given amount of evaporation and thereby allows our oceans to regulate atmospheric temperatures as discussed by me in some detail here:
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=7798
“The Setting And Maintaining Of Earth’s Equilibrium Temperature “
“This paper outlines an idea or hypothesis that should be discussed. This idea has the huge advantage of being supported by all the available data both from over the last thousand years or more, the last 60 or 70 years and the last 20 years.”
“Mike Gene’s 10 signs of intellectual honesty:
1. Do not overstate the power of your argument. One’s sense of conviction should be in proportion to the level of clear evidence assessable by most. If someone portrays their opponents as being either stupid or dishonest for disagreeing, intellectual dishonesty is probably in play. Intellectual honesty is most often associated with humility, not arrogance.”
I am one of those who have yet to be persuaded that LWIR can heat the oceans, or even reduce /slow down the heat loss from the oceans. I will expand, in a later comment, on some of the problems that appear to arise with LWIR and the oceans.
There are a number of reasons why high energy SWIR and lower energy LWIR may have different impacts upon the climate, not least the place within the system where the power is absorbed. For example, if 1 watt per metre squared of LWIR cannot penetrate the oceans to any significant depth, but instead remains in the atmosphere, then the effect of this may be different to 1 watt per metre squared of SWIR which penetrates the ocean to depth and thereby heats the oceans with ocean currents distributing that heat polewards.
“I have attempted to mount a case for the idea that a given LONG WAVE GHG forcing will have considerably lower temperature response than a similar SHORT WAVE solar forcing.”
My layman observation, high humidity plus clear sky plus sunshine equals rapid air temperature rise. (short wave solar forcing) Conversely, high humidity plus clear sky and NO sunshine equals rapid temperature drop. (long wave GHG forcing). I have noticed the RATE of temperature change seems to follow the humidity level. See here: http://www.shadowchaser.demon.co.uk/eclipse/2006/thermochron.gif
Sadly, humidity level is not specified but sea is not far away, also land is arable.
[snip off topic garbage -mod]
That perturbation would occur overnight, right?
If so, it would be worth mentioning that fact.
If anyone reads my earlier essay from 2011 please note that I consider the comment about atmospheric composition being relevant to atmospheric temperature in the absence of oceans to be erroneous. It would be relevant to the circulation but not to the temperature which is determined by mass not composition.
THIS is the experiment Bill Nye should have performed.
“It is an intriguing possibility that both sides of the Global Warming debate could be correct to some extent.”
This is a sloppy generalization. It’s an attempt to be diplomatic, but it sloppily lumps every argument about climate into two categories, then assumes that everyone’s disagreement revolves around this singular point.
I would propose Test C: same as test A, but the air above the water is prevented from escaping and mixing with rest of the air in the room (i.e. the cover is airtight and the fan is inside). This would lead to evaporated water accumulating in the “atmosphere” instead of escaping to “free space” where it stops being part of the observed system.
I did not do this experiment but I would expect its results to somewhere in between your test A and B, suggesting that the effect of radiation may not be as negligible as you’re trying to suggest.
Thanks for the experiment, interesting. That said, there is a far more fundamental flaw in the sensitivity calculations.
A change in solar forcing adds energy to the system as a whole. A change in ghg forcing adds precisely 0 energy to the system as a whole. It only re-distributes the energy within the system. The IPCC even admits this when they say:
Surface forcing has quite different properties than RF and should not be used to compare forcing agents (see Section 2.8.1).
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch2s2-2.html
So they speak out of both sides of their mouths, first arriving at a calculation that is defied by the actual physics and then quietly admitting so in another part of their publication.
http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Absorption_spectrum_of_liquid_water.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Absorption_spectrum_of_liquid_water.png&h=1036&w=1584&sz=92&tbnid=_-VHBzlTJnGmwM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=126&zoom=1&usg=__jCiEqk8ui2dy4UuPmvMt57pG7T4=&docid=ZB4XAiMK6wS6EM&sa=X&ei=gRN0UeDEIIOl0AW7rICIDw&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAA&dur=310
ergo
you cannot heat the oceans with more CO2 (LW absorption @ur momisugly 14-16 um.)
less than 1 um goes a lot better, less than 0.5 um even more….
hence keep your eyes on ozone and HxOx and NOx lying TOA.
do your sums and learn
Sorry, lost interest @ur momisugly “the enormous increase in Long Wave GHG forcing that has occurred in the last 60 or 70 years”; characterizing a theoretical (less than) 1% increase in LW heat flux as “enormous” and attributing it to GHG without sufficient evidence just doesn’t instill confidence in the author’s sense of scale and reason.
Some facts:
Theoretical increase in down-welling LW radiation from 2XCO2 = 3.7 W/m2.
Approximate average down-welling LW radiation = 333 W/m2.
Evidence for GHG attribution to warming: Hot Spot: …. missing. & Stratospheric cooling: …… 15+ year hiatus.
ROFL.
The guy has no idea what energy means.
“the enormous increase in Long Wave GHG forcing that has occurred in the last 60 or 70 years”
I think that statement is a serious flaw.
In fact we have previously seen that all the observed warming could have been caused by a reduction in global cloudiness when the sun was more active, the jets more zonal and the climate zones more poleward.
That process is now in reverse despite increasing CO2.
Any long wave forcing that may have occurred was when that shortwave came out of the oceans again in longwave form via enhanced El Nino events.
This paper outlines an idea or hypothesis that should be discussed. This idea has the huge advantage of being supported by all the available data both from over the last thousand years or more, the last 60 or 70 years and the last 20 years.
Maybe, but you have not shown that. You need a review of all such evidence, and a showing that your hypothesis actually explains the evidence. The experiment itself is nice enough, but it supports a more limited claim.
What would be helpful would be a long time series with Earth mean temperature changes and the changes in concomitant solar irradiation by spectral bands, and a showing that the changes in Earth mean temperature correlate more highly with the changes in short wave radiation than with the changes in long wave radiation or TSI.
The hypothesis proposed above seems reasonable– but only so long is it can backed by verified and verifiable science. Verifiability is the key.
It must be stressed–especially on this website where myths run so rampant– that the preponderance of evidence is still far, far in favor of the AGW theory. Thus far, the science, for all practical purposes, is settled. (Being science, it is always open to unsettling or upsetting with sufficient evidence.)
I and many others have observed that skeptics often grasp at a straw or two and consider it proof against human caused global warming. That is called cherry-picking the evidence. (More about that later.) Three or four black straws in a massive pile of yellow hay do not constitute evidence that totally upsets a tested and retested theory explaining the color of the massive pile.
I see several problems with the paper above:
First, it is part science and part supposition that has not been verified by similar studies. Although it uses science in part to make its suppositions–which gives it the feel of authenticity and correctness–it may or may not be the appropriate science, or it may not consider all relevant factors. Only upon verification and validation by others qualified in the relevant fields could it be considered scientifically valid.
Second, it is politically oriented. Why was the word “alarmist” used? In a scientific paper there’s no place for such a term. “Alarmist” is pejorative because it assumes– without reasonable evidence–that those who have studied global warming and say it is human-caused are for some unreasonable purpose promoting it or consequent alarm in response. Nothing could be further from the truth. Scientists who study the phenomenon are alarmed because the facts *are* alarming. and I obviously with good reason. Global warming looks like the most devastating natural event that has been happening to our planet other than the very real possibility, however remote, of a huge meteor strike. It certainly is happening and has been happening for about 150 years. That is undeniable. Second, it is almost undeniable that human causes have created the spike in warming.
The author is personally biased against those who propose that global warming is human-caused. Use of the term alarmist is intended to cast doubt on verified scientific findings and those who investigate and support those findings. Again, in the strongest of terms, this paper is not promoting only science, but politics as well. Promotion of politics in a paper purporting to be scientific dilutes its intended positive effect and casts doubt on the intentions of the author.
Third, it is not reasonable to accept this statement as true (although many readers here will do so automatically):
“The sceptics, on the other hand, are fairly obviously quite correct when they say that the high sensitivities postulated by the alarmists do not fit with the measured temperature record of the 20th and 21st century.”
It is well known among statisticians and scientists that 15 or 20 years of climate measurement does not make a scientifically valid trend. Skeptics have cherry-picked evidence over such a short period and claimed it is proof the temperature is not rising in the long term. The global temperature may or may not be rising. But it is impossible to know until 30 or more years passes, in order to compare with past trends.
Therefore the statement above uses cherry-picked evidence to make an unverifiable claim. And this is supposed to somehow validate skeptics’ arguments? this claim highlights the main problem with most skeptics claims: they’re unverified and/or unverifiable. And they rely on cherry-picked evidence or evidence that has already been demonstrated as invalid or flawed. Until anyone’s arguments, however much science-based (it may be the wrong science or the right science wrongly applied), are validated by verified and peer reviewed science as noted in the first point, above, they are only hypotheses or supposition, not science.
Remember, this is not about winning an argument. It is about finding enough science and the right science to unequivocally reveal what is happening to our environment.
If, despite the obvious flaws in the paper above, it leads to new evidence regarding global warming, bravo! If it doesn’t, then we’ll see it is just another straw to grasp for those who are afraid of the undeniable reality of human caused global warming.
So far the *best* evidence reveals humans *are* causing catastrophic global warming, it is something to be alarmed about, and we should be doing all we can to change it.
Perhaps *more* importantly, even if AGW were not happening, we should *still* do all we can to reduce our impact on the planet as much as possible.
John West says
& Stratospheric cooling: …… 15+ year hiatus.
henry says
that is still being optimistic
actually it has been cooling for the whole of the equivalent time of one solar cycle:
https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEIQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.24.com%2Fhenryp%2F2013%2F02%2F21%2Fhenrys-pool-tables-on-global-warmingcooling%2F&ei=mCx0UduWJajb0QWt_4HYDw&usg=AFQjCNHfFbkhG5g0yobzlOh0vXPdLf7log&sig2=N34Tyw6_YeYuXABGTiYlKA&bvm=bv.45512109,d.d2k
Watcher:
At April 21, 2013 at 10:36 am you suggest
I disagree completely.
Firstly, as a matter of fact, AGW is not happening. Global warming was last century.
Secondly, as a matter of opinion, the world would be a much better place if we could mitigate effects of weather, earthquakes volcanoes and disease, if we could convert wastelands to productive regions which benefit people, and if we could more efficiently utilise natural resources. This is because I value people more than stones, plants, animals and microbes.
Richard
davidmhoffer says:
April 21, 2013 at 9:30 am
“A change in solar forcing adds energy to the system as a whole. A change in ghg forcing adds precisely 0 energy to the system as a whole.”
Not necessarily. A change in solar forcing increases the time rate of change of energy coming into the system. A change in ghg indeed provides zero increase to the input time rate of change, but it could momentarily decrease the time rate of change of energy exiting the system, leading to additional accumulation of energy (notwithstanding that observations indicate that a change in CO2 does not appreciably do so in the current climate state).
Energy and the time rate of change of energy (aka, power) are two different things. A lot of misconceptions about the system arise from this confusion. The radiation flow in and out of the system is a continuous transport phenomenon, as is the flow of CO2 into and out of the surface system.
Watcher says:
April 21, 2013 at 10:36 am
“It must be stressed–especially on this website where myths run so rampant– that the preponderance of evidence is still far, far in favor of the AGW theory. “
Not even close. The preponderance of cherry-picked evidence by advocates only.
“Skeptics have cherry-picked evidence over such a short period and claimed it is proof the temperature is not rising in the long term.”
As have the advocates cherry picked data over an only slightly longer term.
The global temperature may or may not be rising. But it is impossible to know until 30 or more years passes, in order to compare with past trends.”
An arbitrary interval with no meaning. Given the ~60 year cycle readily apparent in the temperature records, 30 years is approximately the worst possible inteval to select.
we sometimes need to shine light in to a cell culture, for measuring oxygen generation in photosynthetic organisms, or to perform photochemical action spectra.
Essentially all you need do is shine a bright light into your sample and we typically used a slide projector. However, if you use the light from a 3300K tungsten filament lamp you sample cooks as the output of the lamp is mostly IR.
http://zeiss-campus.magnet.fsu.edu/articles/lightsources/images/tungstenlampsfigure1.jpg
We used to use a cool-light by passing the beam through a round bottomed flask of water. This lens gives you a power beam of white light and almost completely attenuates the IR. The pathlength of the water is only 10-15 cm, but that is enough to stop almost all of the IR from a powerful light source.
My guess is that if you has a diffraction grating and dialed your wavelength, an iris and used a pyrometer to measure your output you could examine the amount of sensible heat that you get upon illuminating a body of water.I suspect that blue light gives sensible heating and IR mostly latent heating.
I suggest that an equipment list be printed, each item incorporating a link to an Amazon page where it can be bought, along with an ASID (Amazon stock ID number). Each item’s cost should be noted. This would encourage high school students and others to repeat the experiment.
This may be supported by temperature obeservations:
Since the 1980s, temperatures over land increased much faster than over sea.
But they increased/decreased at the same rates before, particularly during the increase between 1915-1947.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/crutem4vgl/mean:10/plot/hadsst2gl/mean:10
They also increased at the same rates in the lower troposhere measured by RSS/UAH data since 1979.
“Largely” as in the sense, “except for those that don’t” like “Natural Experiment #3” on the seasonal cycle or “Natural Experiment #5” on the equator-pole temperature gradient due to the gradient in solar radiation? ( http://www.warwickhughes.com/papers/Idso_CR_1998.pdf ) No, the reason that Idso gets low climate sensitivities is because that is what he wanted to get and his analysis of his “natural experiments” is naive in the extreme. As an example, in Natural Experiment #4, Idso considers the gross downward flux due to GHGs, not the net, and ignores the fact the he is treating all of the GHGs as forcings and none (i.e., the water vapor and clouds) as feedback.
I find it amusing that a contribution like this is published here on WUWT with no sense of self-awareness or irony. After all, if climate scientists tried to claim that the efficacy of longwave forcing was much larger than that of the shortwave forcing, we all know what the response of people here would be. (In fact, even though the climate scientists do not do that, this does not stop people from making completely false claims that somehow the positive feedbacks act only on forcing due to CO2 and not due to solar or other forcings.)
Home experimentation! I like that!
You could have a point if you could define a mechanism whereby the Long Wave GHG Forcing impacting the ocean surface is transmitted out of the earth system into space.
For the moment I have to agree with Kasuha in that you need an experiment with an atmosphere on top of the experimental set-up. If that’s too complicated to do in a home experiment, you might want to think about a method to measure the rates of evaporation in Test A.
If there would be increased evaporation from Long Wave GHG Forcing this would transfer the energy of the forcing to the water vapour which for a substantial part would return back to ocean by means of rain (directly on the ocean, or via land and rivers; not if it ends up in a lake or gets added to permanent ice sheets).
Hope you get my drift, looking forward to seeing more experiments!