New Zealand’s Prime Minister: Climate Change bill a “load of rubbish” and “hoax”

Via Andrew Bolt in email, some surprising revelations about New Zealand’s Prime minister and his previous opinion of the ETS. It appears he has done a complete about face from his very strong opinions of 2005.
http://topnews.net.nz/images/imagecache/bigthumb/sites/default/files/key_john.jpg
The Prime Minister of New Zealand, John Key, (shown above) has just introduced the world’s first Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) today for new Zealand. It is not going over well with voters.

This is the same man who, when in opposition, described anthropogenic climate change as a hoax on the 10th may, 2005.
See Hansard debates at:


EXCERPTS:
JOHN KEY (National—Helensville) : “I rise on behalf of the National Party to give the good news to the people of New Zealand—that is, the Climate Change Response Amendment Bill is a load of rubbish and the National Party will not be supporting it, for very, very good reasons indeed.”
“Yet here we are down in New Zealand, a very little country with about 0.2 percent of the world’s emissions, putting a self-imposed straitjacket on our businesses, and waving a huge flag that says: “Foreign investment, don’t come anywhere near us. Australia is over there—the West Island. Go over there to pour your dollars in.” To the Chinese we are saying: “Come in and buy as much coal as you like from our West Coast. We’ll sell it to you and you can burn it without a carbon charge—but, by the way, to those back here in Aotearoa New Zealand we will be slapping on a carbon charge and you won’t be able to operate.”

“This is a complete and utter hoax, if I may say so. The impact of the Kyoto Protocol, even if one believes in global warming—and I am somewhat suspicious of it—is that we will see billions and billions of dollars poured into fixing something that we are not even sure is a problem. Even if it is a problem, it will be delayed for about 6 years. Then it will hit the world in 2096 instead of 2102, or something like that. It will not work.”
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76 thoughts on “New Zealand’s Prime Minister: Climate Change bill a “load of rubbish” and “hoax”

  1. Well, 2005 was before all that robust science was published by the IPCC in 2007; it was before Al Gore’s “inconvenient truth,”; before Pachauri’s efforts to attack glacier critics as “voodoo scientists,”;before Moobat’s declaring Amazongate to be “toast”; before the world learned how ancient humans caused global warming by wipping out the mammoths. A guy’s just gotta go with the science.

  2. I’ll paraphrase something an ex-prime minister of Australia, Paul Keating once said..

    Never come between a politician and a bucket full of money.

    The above explains this post well I think.

  3. People don’t want to be fleeced. The tyrants want to go against the will of the people. Algore had problems with “what is it about no you don’t understand”

    In every carbon tax scheme, there is a promise of lower energy costs. It never happens.

  4. I can only understand this by decribing the Nats as having been captured by the bureaucracy.

  5. There is no doubt that man made global warming skeptics are losing the battle even as they win the arguments.

  6. John Key (May 05):
    “This is a complete and utter hoax, if I may say so. The impact of the Kyoto Protocol, even if one believes in global warming-and I am somewhat suspicious of it-is that we will see billions and billions of dollars poured into fixing something that we are not even sure is a problem”

    John Key (Nov 06)
    “I firmly believe in climate change and always have”
    “Like most New Zealanders, I take the risks posed by climate change seriously. The scientific evidence indicates that the world is getting warmer and, if this does not change, the results could be catastrophic – for our society as well as for our environment.”

    John Key (Dec 08)
    “I believe that human-induced climate change is occurring”

    John Key (Mar 09)
    “The important point here is that we have flexibility built into the system so that if the science either firms up considerably more or deteriorates, and the climate change sceptics are right, we have the ability to alter the impact on our economy”

    http://intersect.ning.com/forum/topics/john-key-backtracks-on-climate

    <<>>

    So he is a moving target.
    Whether a politician has the prerogative to change his/her mind –
    or whether it is simply waffling of convenience –
    is up to the reader to decide.

  7. Climbing the greasy political pole appears to be just the same as climbing a mountain; you only get a 360 degree field of vision when you get to the top.

    What has John Key seen from the top of the NZ mountain? Revenue, 360 degrees of it for as far as the eye can see! All with a built in “not my fault gov” Kyoto, AGW, Climate Change, CO2, all your fault not mine.

    O yes a scam when in opposition morphs into opportunity when in power. This is quite a representative example of principles and politicians.

    Got more than our share in the UK, if ours is the “Mother of all Parliaments” I am beginning to fear what we have foisted upon the world.

  8. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.—-John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton

  9. NZ politics is strange. The “leaders” we see on the TV, those elected to represent etc, are puppets IMO. Here’s an example; Post Bank sale to ANZ. Post Bank, a wholy NZ owned and operated bank, was sold to ANZ, unpon Govn’t approval (Of course), in the early 1990′s, during the NZ economic “miracle” attributed to the Nats. ANZ promptly stripped Post Bank of it’s assets and closed it down much to the anger of the average NZer who was a Post Bank customer. Then, 2000 comes around and a Labour landslide win under Helen Clark (HC). HC, with support from “the people” starts up Kiwi Bank, a wholy NZ owned and operated bank (Wot, like Post Bank?) at every Post Shop. Now the “funny” thing is, the very same people, we usually call them Civil Servants in the UK, Aus and NZ, (Those in the halls of power you usually don’t see. I met two of these “Civil Servants” through “connections” and I was stunned at their attitude towards “the people” and their attitude to coporate asset stripping etc.) who “sold” Post Bank to ANZ also setup Kiwi Bank. Incidentally Kiwi Bank’s backend processing is done, in Australia, by WestPac, an Australian bank. ANZ owns the ATM network. ANZ also “bought” National Bank, probably under similar circumstances.

    How do you know a politican is not telling the truth? Words spill out of their mouths.

  10. Actually dbs, I didn’t call anyone any names. Try reading the comment again. Then compare the title of this piece with it’s content.

  11. Perhaps, after the harsh opposition in the whole world, bedwetters have chosen NZ like a test, to see what happens when a country applies all their creed´s beliefs.

  12. Maybe The Goracle’s call for Milford Sound to be filled in and reclaimed as the building site for Holy See of the Church of Climatology pushed him over the edge? Maybe he has a daughter and overheard The Goracle mumbling “She’d fit the bear costume.”? Or maybe he just realized bad policy is the only get political climatology can produce.

  13. Hopefully our New Zealand friends will see these politicians for what they are and throw them all out at the next election.

  14. I don’t care one way or the other what this person says or said, but there’s something of a disconnect between the wording of the title, and the content of the actual quotes.

    He’s expressing some suspicion about climate change, but is using the harsher ‘hoax’ language for whatever policy was being proposed at the time.

  15. John Key is not calling climate change a “load of rubbish” or a “hoax”. He’s referring to the Climate Change Response Amendment Bill. The two are not one in the same.

  16. The title of this piece is: New Zealand’s Prime Minister: Climate Change a “load of rubbish” and “hoax”.

    But in the piece the man says: “… the Climate Change Response Amendment Bill is a load of rubbish …”.
    And: ““This [the Climate Change Response Amendment Bill] is a complete and utter hoax …”.

    He says about global warming (aka climate change) “… I am somewhat suspicious of it …”

    It looks like the title is a mistake.

    [Fixed, thanks. ~dbs]

  17. “David Segesta says:
    July 1, 2010 at 8:14 am
    Hopefully our New Zealand friends will see these politicians for what they are and throw them all out at the next election.”

    NZers typically vote out Govn’ts. Here in Aus and NZ, to me at least, it seems to be more a popularity event.

  18. “carrot eater says:
    July 1, 2010 at 8:25 am
    I don’t care one way or the other what this person says or said, but there’s something of a disconnect between the wording of the title, and the content of the actual quotes.

    He’s expressing some suspicion about climate change, but is using the harsher ‘hoax’ language for whatever policy was being proposed at the time.

    Cal Barndorfer says:
    July 1, 2010 at 8:39 am
    John Key is not calling climate change a “load of rubbish” or a “hoax”. He’s referring to the Climate Change Response Amendment Bill. The two are not one in the same.”

    And enjoying the revenue stream on the way? Yeah, I hear ya!

  19. Unfortunately Kiwis are an apathetic bunch.

    “She’ll be right mate” is hardwired into the national consciousness.

    Now that the ETS is up and running we’ll whinge and moan for a couple of weeks, then there will be an important rugby game on and everyone will forget the facts that we produce only 0.3% of the worlds GHG emissions and that 70% of our power is already produced from renewable sources (hydro, geo, wind) but all power prices are rising.

    The National party are banking that with weak political opposition they’ll be able to paper over this by the next election, throw the peasants some sweeteners closer to the election and they’ll romp back in no worries.

    Personally I think they have misjudged the mood of the country, especially from farmers, who make up a large percentage of our export producers and are scheduled to be extorted further under the ETS in progressive tranches in 2013 and 2015. National may find they have bitten off a little more than they can chew.

  20. politicians lie to get elected. duh.

    i just don’t understand how people keep voting for them when we know they are lying. they are all just marketing packages designed to get a share of the market, like coke or pepsi, with absolutely no difference in the underlying reality.

    otherwise reasonable people persist in believing ‘their’ candidate is different, against all evidence. as long as you keep voting for the usaul parties you will only get the continuing slide toward totalitarianism.

  21. I despair. I thought the Kiwis were a pretty level headed sort of people. When is the next election? For God’s sake advance with bayonets fixed.

  22. Napoleon’s Return from Elba in 1815 –
    And the contemporary commentary from Le Moniteur” -

    March 9
    The Monster has escaped from his place of banishment.

    March 13
    The Tyrant is now at Lyon.

    March 18
    The Usurper has ventured to approach to within 60 hours’ march of the capital.

    March 20
    Napoleon will arrive under the walls of Paris tomorrow.

    March 22
    Yesterday evening His Majesty the Emperor made his public entry and arrived at the Tuileries. Nothing can exceed the universal joy.

    <<>>

    Plus ça change – - -

  23. If I recall, he was an investment banker prior to going into government.
    This decision is disturbing, because it implies the fix is in, and that carbon trading will become a global ponzi scheme over the next few years- the logical blow-out phase of the social mania that is AGW.
    Perhaps he hopes that if NZ is in the pyramid early, they might be sheltered from the worst effects when it implodes.

  24. “Grumpy Old Man says:
    July 1, 2010 at 9:29 am
    I despair. I thought the Kiwis were a pretty level headed sort of people. When is the next election? For God’s sake advance with bayonets fixed.”

    “singularian says:
    July 1, 2010 at 9:20 am ”

    No they are not, anymore. Popularity is Key!

  25. Hmm, so it was just a mistake?

    Try comparing the fifth sentence with the third excerpt, or follow the link.

    {We can’t make everyone happy, and today is just not your day. ~dbs]

  26. Metryq says:
    July 1, 2010 at 9:36 am

    @James Sexton “Power corrupts…”

    “Actually, power attracts the corruptible.”

    That, too, is true. But, even the well intentioned can fall to the allure of power. With this literal grab of power, not just in N.Z., but all across the globe, it is very disconcerting. Already we see blatant lies, character assassination, half truths and made up numbers, respected and published scientists advocating scare tactics, and the list goes on…..

    If and when we acquiesce the control over our power and the use of it, we will see the most hideous form of human enslavement. Totalitarianism. With the usurpation of all forms of energy(coal, oil, nuke, gas, ect) and the regulatory authority, a small group of people will control every aspect of our lives. (When we can shower, when we can run our AC, how much petrol we can purchase….the list is endless.) We should resolve to fight all aspects of this attempted takeover.

  27. The Prime Minister, or President, of a country is shown “stuff” that the deputy, or Vice-President, is not. Nor are they allowed to divulge said stuff. To anyone. They are then persuaded that whatever opinion they proffered before ascending to the throne they, if needs be, must change their mind and their policies. Even if this change appears to be a 180 degree about face and the exact opposite of manifesto “promises”.

    The difference between displaying pragmatism and merely coming to terms with their countries’ secrets, or best interests, is what makes a politician great, or not.

    When these creatures are shown the projected turnover of the new carbon bubble they ALL bow to circumstance.

    The trillions of dollars locked up in carbon futures trading will fill the pension holes, the national treasuries and their pants pockets nicely thank you. So what if some countries are bankrupted along the way. So what if people starve. The status quo must be maintained.

    This is why, whatever we do to expose the complete and utter paucity of evidence that CO2 does anything much to current, or future climate and the mendacious grubbing of the climbatologists we are doomed to failure while the promise of vast unearned wealth is dangled in front of these people.

    Sorry.

  28. Be grateful NZ is doing this.

    It will fail in every respect, no less emission, more expensive energy, less investment, fewer jobs and a degraded standard of living. This will happen to the most indignant people on Earth. People who will object to anything they don’t like in an instant.

    Unfortunately the average Kiwi believes the propaganda he is fed by the “progressives” so it takes a while for them to wake up. This will wake them up pronto and Key will join the rest of those phonies who have tried to pretend they have a grip while running NZ.

    This is a good thing, wait and see what the world will learn from disaffected Kiwis.

  29. I met a wonderful New Zealander many years ago. His name is Hugh Tucker. He was in the sales business like I was at the time. He had a saying that really applies to the subject of this article :”You can hit me, but don’t sh!t me.”

  30. thethinkingman says:
    July 1, 2010 at 10:30 am
    “This is a good thing, wait and see what the world will learn from disaffected Kiwis.”

    I can appreciate the thought, but recent history shows us that we don’t learn very much from recent examples. From the EU’s carbon trading scheme to the alt energy embraced by Spain to the financial crisis in Greece, other western nations are still rushing headlong into this self-imposed energy crisis and job killing scheme. Our president, just the other day expressed his desire for a price on carbon. He, apparently, hasn’t observed the prior failures of that very same plot.

  31. thethinkingman says (July 1, 2010 at 10:30 am): “This is a good thing, wait and see what the world will learn from disaffected Kiwis.”

    But if we haven’t already learned from Spain…

  32. peterhodges says:
    July 1, 2010 at 9:29 am
    politicians lie to get elected. duh

    And everywhere and everytime is the same. Not a single hard working individual has ever imagining running for office. Why?. Consciousness prevents it.
    Hence democracy would be better if honest people would choose being politicians but since none of them dares, democracy is doomed.
    The only alternative: A green monarchy! ☺

  33. John Egan says:
    July 1, 2010 at 9:31 am

    Great!, however it means that there is still hope for us, daily workers on this planet. Let’s hope some sceptic bids for more, or like in not long ago in South America, where, after a Coup d’etat, politicians inmediately changed T-shirts (as we use to say), like soccer players when ending a soccer game. I would like to see something of the like in a “developed” country, as part of the current “interesting times”.

  34. Patrick Davis: “Post Bank, a wholy NZ owned and operated bank, was sold to ANZ, unpon Govn’t approval (Of course), in the early 1990′s…2000 comes around and a Labour landslide win under Helen Clark (HC). HC, with support from “the people” starts up Kiwi Bank…”

    Different administrations, different policies. As for Key’s 2005 comments, at the time he was in opposition. Oppositions oppose. He did so in a vigorous manner, which has come back to embarass him. Happens.

  35. ” Henry chance says: July 1, 2010 at 6:44 am
    People don’t want to be fleeced. The tyrants want to go against the will of the people. Algore had problems with “what is it about no you don’t understand”
    In every carbon tax scheme, there is a promise of lower energy costs. It never happens.”

    I’m sorry Henry, but I completely disagree. Obama’s openly stated agenda is to raise fees on the fossil burning power industry (mostly US coal). This will make the more expensive wind and solar power more competitive.

    What they do NOT say, is that this will raise the electricity rates for everybody. Then (I am guessing) they will change the rate structure and charge more to industrial and other large users of electricity, so that they can send rebate checks to small users that vote.

  36. John Egan July 1, 2010 at 6:55 am got it right. It is the way of all politicians as they move into power – the potential tax revenue from the ETS was too good to reject so he modified his stance (gradually of course). But we New Zealanders were just too happy to be rid of to mother of all control freaks (Helen Clark) that John Key was a breath of fresh air. Sad thing is that they (the politicians) are really controlled by the faceless bureaucrats who act without responsibility. We have Hobson’s choice here in selecting a government – its Tweedledum or Tweedledumber

  37. The ETS is flawed, but at least nobody said we’d pay less for power – oh no, everyone was straight up and said we’d pay more. No word on where the proceeds of this stealth tax are going though.

    To start with, you can only buy carbon credits off the government, at a fixed price of (off the top of my fuzzy head) NZD25/tonne. If I went to Chicago I could by a tonne of credit for USD0.10. Go figure.

    Key is only enforcing legislation that was passed by the previous house, by the way, as this act of parliament is the bastard offspring of the Green Party and Labour (under was Helen “I love the UN” Clarke). One can only hope titanks and is repealed in short order.

  38. singularian says: July 1, 2010 at 9:20 am
    Unfortunately Kiwis are an apathetic bunch.
    “She’ll be right mate” is hardwired into the national consciousness.

    Don’t worry, be happy.

  39. “Enneagram says:
    July 1, 2010 at 8:05 am

    Perhaps, after the harsh opposition in the whole world, bedwetters have chosen NZ like a test, to see what happens when a country applies all their creed´s beliefs.”

    You’ve hit the nail on the head. NZ has been a leading Guinea Pig of sorts for various Socialist Change, etc over the years. Trying to Be Numero Uno on the World stage first. Well some of us NZers have had a complete gutsful of this kind of arrogance by our leaders.

    John Key doesn’t know if he’s Arthur or Martha half the time. More often than not. He says one thing and then backs down and does the opposite of what he originally stated. He has a fairly regular habit of doing that kind of thing. It’s what we call his ‘Flip-Flop’ style of leadership.

  40. I believe that John Key was saying that the Kyoto Protocol was a complete and utter hoax (which of course it is).

    As I posted yesterday, Key said:
    “This is a complete and utter hoax, if I may say so. The impact of the Kyoto Protocol, even if one believes in global warming—and I am somewhat suspicious of it—is that we will see billions and billions of dollars poured into fixing something that we are not even sure is a problem. “

  41. @Neil Jones: If Chesterton said anything like that, he was misquoting Emerson’s famous dictum:
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
    adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

    People often forget the “foolish” part.

  42. Way to go NZ. (As hundreds of your dollars flow out of your country) Since you are dependent on foreign oil, why not become dependent on foreign Carbon credits. You will create so many new “green” jobs (like caulking windows) you won’t even notice the 2.2 job lost per 1 “green” job like in Spain.
    I can it coming down the track, can you. A Carbon credit cartel
    Remember
    Henry Kissinger declared in the 1970’s, ‘If you control the oil you control the country;(which is being done not only with the input side, but with the output of a byproduct, CO2) if you control food, you control the population;

  43. David Segesta says:
    July 1, 2010 at 8:14 am
    Hopefully our New Zealand friends will see these politicians for what they are and throw them all out at the next election.

    Unfortunately the other major party (Labour) would only introduce an ETS with twice the cost.

    I think this NZ ETS is really going to be a test case. A lot of Kiwis seem to believe it is our moral duty to be at the bleeding edge of environmental causes (look up Pete Bethune for example, the anti-whaling activist on trial in Japan). The litmus test will come soon, the most vocal environmental campaigners tend to be living off other peoples’ money – in NZ mostly social welfare. When the real costs of this ETS start hitting them in their wallet we’ll see how dedicated to the cause they really are.

    Our elections are likely to be Nov 2011. NZ runs an MMP voting system, so we have a number of small parties who support the major parties in confidence and supply. Only one party (ACT) are against the ETS, and they are part of the governing coalition (giving confidence and supply to John Key’s National Party). Having voted the previous labour-led government out in 2008 (after 9 years in gummint) it is likely National will be returned next election. The best we can hope for is that the ACT party gets a larger share of the vote and has more influence in the next coalition.
    The National party is seen as right wing, although really they’re probably still to the left of America’s Democrats. The ACT party has far more right wing values, but NZ seems to be very cagey about moving too far to the right. Probably because the last Labour-led government increased middle class welfare so much that less than half the voters are net tax payers.

    The only way up for us is to hit rock bottom first. At least the ETS should bring that about quickly. We need a 12 step program for socialismoholics.

  44. its too late for NZ we australians can watch on the side line to see what will unfold and i don,t think thay will be very happy. RUDD should go and live over there he might be ably to give them some advice.

  45. NZ environment minister Dr Nick Smith was being sued by a timber company for $NZ14.7m. After 3 acrimonious years they ‘settled’ with no sign of money changing hands. Now forestry interests in NZ are set to reap a windfall in govt-issued ETS credits, as are Maori forestry interests. Maori are essential MMP coalition partners for the government.

    The about face, and the staunch persistence on implementing this ETS in the face of unparalleled public opposition suggests to me there’s a very dark, and possibly very corrupt story or two lurking.

  46. A kiwi says:
    July 1, 2010 at 5:04 pm
    John Key is a hungarian jew. I hate stereotypes, but if israel and the soviet oligarchy are the examples I hate jews in power more than the stereotypes.

    fantastic. when i look up the definition of an oxymoron im certain ill find your picture. Obviously John Key is a member of the ZOG (zionist occupational government) and our only hope for the future is for Yaweh, god of the aryians to throw down the money grubbing Zionists in a fit of holy revenge. while its happening they can round up the blacks who are unfairly raising the price of watermelon by overconsuming and the mexicans that are depressing the cost of oranges.

    i can only hope the level of my sarcasm isnt at the point where someone might snip me.

  47. TimM is correct, to vote Key out would merely be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. We’re screwed no matter how you look at it.

    However, if you have a large enough income, NZ is still a great place to live. You just have to accept that we are never going to be a wealthy nation becuase it upsets our sense of social justice too much to do what needs to be done.

  48. The next BS from New Zealand:

    From Yahoo.com
    “(…) Major efforts have been initiated to speed up the ozone hole’s recovery, including the 1987 Montreal Protocol and the phasing out of CFCs. Even so, a study by Guang Zeng and her colleagues from New Zealand’s National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research shows that that the recovery, in concert with climate change, may do harm as well as good.

    The study, detailed in the May edition of Geophysical Research Letters, revealed that variations in atmospheric circulation due to climate change will cause a 43-percent increase in gas exchange between the stratosphere and the troposphere, the layer of Earth’s air at the surface and our air supply. As more and more ozone is replenished in the stratosphere it will also have more opportunities to seep into the air we breathe.

    Some ozone is currently present in the troposphere, though mostly as smog from car emissions and other pollutants. It can be harmful to human respiratory systems and the environment.

    If carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere increase as expected from unabated emission, Zeng said the ozone layer will cool off, blurring the temperature boundary that separates it from the troposphere. Within the next century, more ozone than ever before will surge into our air, her computer model study predicts.

    Zeng hopes that future studies of the impacts of climate change will account for the atmospheric composition of both the stratosphere and troposphere, as well as the movement of ozone between the two, to paint a better, more accurate picture of the Earth’s environmental future. “

  49. A couple facts for those unfortunate enough not to be Kiwis:

    - the ETS is a watered-down version of the previous Labour shocker of an Act, and has two review points over the next five years. If the rest of the world has gotten over its evangelism aboot AGW, and our trading partners have found a bus to throw their ETS’ under, then these reviews will pick that up and act accordingly.

    - The primary reason for retaining an ETS is the trading impact on a highly export-oriented nation. In tougher economic times, non-trade barriers, such as the lack of an ETS, can quickly be brought into play by governments pushed by their own constituencies, against ‘foreign imports’. So, just sheer traders’ common sense is in play here, in an increasingly protectionist world.

  50. @David Segesta says:
    July 1, 2010 at 8:14 am
    Hopefully our New Zealand friends will see these politicians for what they are and throw them all out at the next election.

    Yes, well the alternatives are worse. Point is, a lovely wee democracy like NZ has been totally sucked in to this charade. And the silent majority are still silent because they don’t have a clue. As late as yesterday the Climate Change Minister (there’s a clue) Nick Smith was telling the MSM that this scheme would cost the average NZ household $147 per year. Absolute BS. More like $1500 to $2000 p.a.

    But the MSM simply reports what the Minister said. No investigation, no balanced viewpoint, no checking of facts. So the silent majority thinks, “Gee, I can afford $147 a year as insurance to save the planet so my grandchildren won’t burn my effagy”.

    Little do they know.

    I am just flabbergasted. Am a 5th generation New Zealander, worked, paid taxes, voted all his longshort life, and I am so depressed by the incoming tide of greenie, socialist, communist, thou-shalt, tax-you-stupid, environmental claptrap that I am about to get on a cheap boat to USA and join the 11m illegal immigrants over there. (Just kidding!)

    OMG – my world is upsidedown. Global Bullshit.

  51. “…. John Key had told Investigate Magazine that he wanted to ‘have flexibility so that if the science deteriorates and the climate change sceptics are right we have an ability to alter the impact on our economy’…..”.

    As I understand it, an ETS (cap + trade) must be open-ended, otherwise it will not achieve the intended (pointless) result.

    The value of the permits at any time is entirely dependent on the number of permits on offer by the issuing government.

    An ETS creates an entirely artificial market and if there is a likelihood that in the not-so-distant future a government may free up the issue of permits or scrap them altogether, the market will lack the confidence to trade freely.

    If a government interfered in a freely operating market in such a way without warning, in any democratic country with an independent judiciary, it would be up for massive compensation to existing permit holders or would have to buy back the permits at the current trading price.

    It’s no surprise to me that John Key, like that other ETS enthusiast Australia’s Malcolm Turnbull, has a background in merchant banking.

  52. @Cal Barndorfer and others;

    Common sense check please – how on earth can a Bill, even a ‘Climate Change’-related one, be a hoax? Are you serious? You think the government is going to waste time drafting a ‘hoax’ bill? What are they going to do, pass it into law and then yell ‘gotcha’? No, he’s referring to climate change as a load of rubbish and a hoax. The title is correct, as far as I can see.

  53. Gary Hladik says:
    July 1, 2010 at 11:09 am

    thethinkingman says (July 1, 2010 at 10:30 am): “This is a good thing, wait and see what the world will learn from disaffected Kiwis.”

    But if we haven’t already learned from Spain…

    Give it time to be bruited around and to sink in.

  54. Our GST tax is going up 2.5% soon too. Car registrations are going up $30 and more.Also the politicians wages may go up 10% if they drop their travel perks.

  55. “In addition to electricity and petrol, industrial processes will also be included in the ETS from the 1st of July although the Bank has failed to allow for this. Processing of basic food stuffs, like milk and bread, will be captured by the ETS and will percolate through the economy.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1003/S00167.htm

  56. Many Kiwis believe a whole load of myths about themselves; myth #1, the vision Kiwi farmers have of themselves as bronzed and tough individualists – Federated Farmers, the major farming association, is actually one of the most successful political lobbying groups in the country which uses its economic clout very effectively.
    Myth #2 is that every suburban Kiwi lives on his own ‘Quarter-acre Pavlova Paradise’, to quote Austin Mitchell, when the average surburban house site was a full quarter acre, a mortgages to build houses were cheap and we had full employment, but those days are long gone.
    Myth #3; Kiwis are independent thinkers. I remember a lecturer shouting at a class back in the late 70s ” If the politicians told you it was raining elephants, you’d just go and buy stronger bloody umbrellas!”
    My dad cautioned me to be wary of politicians – “voting for the buggers only encourages ‘em.”

  57. Well, you know what they say: You can tell when a politician is lying. His lips move.

  58. Trouble is who do we vote for? And what is Rodney doing I wonder? Has he sold out too?

  59. “Brendan H says:

    Different administrations, different policies. As for Key’s 2005 comments, at the time he was in opposition. Oppositions oppose. He did so in a vigorous manner, which has come back to embarass him. Happens.”

    No I think you miss the point I was trying to make, and I quote from one of these “Civil Servants” I met, “If you want real power in Govn’t, don’t be a Minister, an MP or even a PM”. That’s the point! The “Civil Servants” you don’t see are in control, literally in control. That is one reason why voting in NZ is futile. All you do is shuffle puppets about. And NZ’s implementation of a German based system of proportional reprentation called MMP. It’s a dogs breakfast. So many list MP’s “get into Parliament” on the coat tails of elected MP’s, it not funny! Helen Clark was Health Minister, and she set in motion the destruction of the, once, superb NZ public health system, before she became “Party Leader”. Now she’s in the UN!!!! Scary! Similarly, Richard Prebble, Labour, set about destroying industry in NZ, before the so called “economic miracle”. He split from Labour and formed the ACT party.

    You cannot trust any polotician, and I am stunned many people still feel there is trust. The days of genuine democracy died in Greece a long time ago. But what voting gives the “ordinary” person is a sense of “envolvement” in the process, albeit, in reality, certainly in NZ, Aus and the UK, is a waste of time.

  60. As per the usual, people in general think only of the rise in costs of their utility and fuel bills when increased costs of energy are concerned. The simple fact is that each and every product we use and/or consume, and every service we receive or utilize has a hidden but substantial cost of energy included it the price tags of those products and services. About a dozen years or so ago, I read an excellent article about a study done regarding those hidden energy costs, which stated as a conclusion that close to 80% of the cost of living in the US could be attributed to the cost of energy.

    Thus, in the overall scheme of things, not only will the direct costs of energy be substantially increased, but the costs of all goods and services will be substantially increased as well.

    Better get used to the fact that the standard of living of all Americans, lest of course the few elite, will be substantially reduced when use of these hugely expensive “alternative energy” sources becomes widespread.

  61. Patrick Davis: “That’s the point! The “Civil Servants” you don’t see are in control, literally in control.”

    I understand the point you are making. But on the example you gave, I’m not convinced. The facts are that a state-owned bank was sold off under a National Government, and then another state-owned bank was created under a Labour Government.

    You seem to be suggesting that “Civil Servants” were pulling the strings in the background, although you don’t explain why they would do one thing at one time and its opposite at another.

    Perhaps you are suggesting that “Civil Servants” are in cahoots with the bankers. Or the UN. Or something.

  62. Anthony has just completed his successful tour of Australia. As one of those who organised things, I thought it interesting to comment about a surprising outcome.

    At the meeting in Wagga Wagga, we got word that a local greenie from the university was in attendance: We were expecting trouble. I told 2 of the speakers about the potential trouble and to be ready.

    All the speakers (3) did their presentations with Anthony going last. Anthony had slide after slide with shots of defective recording stations throughout the USA. The defects were generally causing erroneous high readings of temperature. Intermixed with the presentation was Anthony’s comments was that we use this data for the world record. It did not require Einstein to understand the point that Anthony was making. Lo and behold we did not get a single boo from the potential trouble maker. I suspect that this was because of the strength of Anthony’s argument. That is, that the world’s temperature data has been compromised by faulty recording stations and bad siting.

    Thanks Anthony!

  63. Unfortunately this ETS scam will hit us in NZ profoundly.

    We’ve have the ETS this week and soon a rise in our Goods and Services Tax -GST, similar to British VAT in just a few more weeks. So every product and service will rise twice in a matter of weeks. Not to worry, since public outcry over politicians perks abuses, they’ve drop their perks, and given themselves a 10% pay increase, because thats more acceptable….right….
    Thoughtfully, Politicians have allowed Government controlled power companies to continuously raise their charges, because those companies MUST return an escalating profit to the main shareholder – the Government, which always, always get passed onto the Taxpayer – surely the genuine stakeholder. However many a commentator have pointed out the recent tax cuts made, will take the sting out of the GST rise,…what the government gives, it takes back and then some.
    I encourage all WUWT readers around the world, to fight their governments moves to install an ETS, it will bankrupt whats left of the collapsing New Zealand economy.

  64. NZ carbon price system hikes household costs

    http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2010/07/01/4592514-nz-carbon-price-system-hikes-household-costs

    Most transport fuel suppliers increased prices by New Zealand dollars 0.03 a liter ($0.12 cents a gallon) Thursday, taking the cost of standard gas for vehicles to NZ$6.80 ($4.67) a gallon. Electric power prices also began rising, as producers using carbon-based fuels passed their carbon costs onto consumers.

    “It brings us no pleasure in putting that sort of price impact on New Zealanders, but that’s what we have to do if we are going to do our fair share around this huge challenge of climate change,” Climate Change Minister Nick Smith said.

    He said households on average will pay an extra NZ$3.00 ($2.10) a week for vehicle fuel and electricity.

  65. Now the shackle is on, the milking starts. NZ has always been the test ground of the Globalist NWO gang. Our Politicians are enslaved as we are our. If we do not comply then we become another Greece or Iceland. Does not matter which party you vote for.
    Thanks Helen, you did a great job like so many others in selling us out, hope you are enjoying your rewards there in New York
    Carbon Tax is a social political control tool. Every educated person that takes the time to put 2+2 together knows Climate change (They don’t call it Global warming any more) has nothing to do with man made emissions. Its natural, always has been and always will be. They grew wine in Medieval times in the north of England. Polar bears are great swimmers. The glaciers are not retreating everywhere and islands are not being flooded. Wake up people turn off CNN and the other spin machines for the NWO. Check the real science, go to http://www.friendsofsceince.org

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