Unraveling the Narrative Supporting a Green Energy Transition  

From Climate Etc.

by Planning Engineer (Russ Schussler)

The purpose of this article is to summarize and debunk many of the issues in the narrative surrounding  the proposed green energy transition as applies to the electric grid.  The issues are so numerous that this piece is at once both too long and too short. A full unraveling deserves a book or series of books. This posting however challenges the narrative through summary comments with links to previous posts and articles which can be read for a more detailed explanation or for greater depth.

The Narrative

Efforts to hasten a “green transition” find support in a powerful and compelling narrative. The following statements are widely believed, embraced and supported by various “experts”, a large part of the public and far too many policy makers:

  1. Renewable Energy can meet the electric demand of the United States and World
  2. Renewable Energy is economic
  3. Renewable Energy sources can provide reliable electric service to consumers and support the grid
  4. Renewable energy sources are inexhaustible and widely available
  5. Clean Energy resources don’t produce carbon and are environmentally neutral
  6. Renewable Energy Costs are decreasing over time
  7. It will become easier to add renewables as we become more familiar with the technologies
  8. The intermittency problems associated with wind and solar can be addressed through batteries.
  9. Inverter based generation from wind, solar and batteries can be made to perform like conventional rotating generator technology
  10. Battery improvements will enable the green transition
  11. We are at a tipping point for renewables
  12. Wind, Solar, and Battery technologies collectively contribute to a cleaner environment, economic growth, energy security, and a sustainable future
  13. The world is facing severe consequences from increased CO2 emissions.
  14. There will be an inevitable and necessary transition to clean economic renewables
  15. Green Energy will allow independence from world energy markets
  16. The clean grid will facilitate clean buses, trucks, tanks, planes
  17. The third world will bypass fossil fuels and promote global equity
  18. Replacing fossil fuels with green energy will have huge health benefits
  19. It’s all about Urgency and Action

This narrative is compelling to many consumers and major policy makers. Unqualified acceptance of this powerful narrative makes it clear we should all be behind the movement to increase wind and solar generation along with other efforts to expand renewable resources.  Most all of the above statements making up the narrative are “somewhat” true. Unfortunately, the collective narrative as frequently adopted is at odds with the economics and physical realities of providing electric power and supporting civilization. 

How did this narrative become so widely accepted despite dismal real-world results?  A previous posting discussed, “How the Green Energy Narrative Confuses Things” by using misleading language and distraction (#44). Additionally,  tribal loyalties enable distortions and suppress more realistic assessments (#18, #10,#22, #42, &#39). While others should chime in on the social psychology supporting this movement, astute observers can’t miss the power of fear-based narratives, groupthink, demonization of dissenters and misplaced altruism (#39, #18,& #10).  Incentives and their impact on key actors play a major role (#38 & #29). The media overblowing trivialities and focusing on continually emerging “good news” helps cement undeserved optimism.   The great many failures are conveniently forgotten. Finally, it should be noted that the electric grid has been very robust. In the short run you can make a lot of “bad decisions” before negative consequences emerge to challenge the narrative. At that point it may be too late.

The next section will explore and critically examine various elements of the narrative in a very brief fashion, with links in many cases providing more detailed explanations and information. 

Unraveling the Narrative

  1. Renewable Energy can meet the electric demand of the United States and World
    • “Renewable Energy” is not a coherent category and allows for a lot of confusion. #40
    • The green energy narrative began with simple calculations which found that the energy which could be derived from renewable resources like hydro, solar and wind matched or exceeded the energy consumed as electric energy. It is not a particularly meaningful observation. #28
      • It does not consider what may be involved in making that energy available when needed, where needed, with the proper characteristics needed.
    • Demonstrating that sufficient energy exists does not say anything about our ability to harness such resources. Large amounts of various “renewable” energy sources, such as those listed below. But even though the energy is there, and small amounts can be harnessed, most know enough not say the energy presence itself makes an energy transition feasible soon.
      • Tidal Energy
      • Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion
      • Earths rotational energy
      • Earth’s magnetic field
      • Nuclear Fusion
      • Unconventional geothermal energy (Hot Dry Rock or Enhanced Geothermal Systems)
    • Using just sunlight and/or wind exclusively to power large motors, variable speed drives, non-linear loads, arc furnaces or power a modern civilization is not feasible at this time.
    • Projecting feasibility based only such “studies” or calculations may be from either a serious misunderstanding of the challenges to be faced or unconstrained infantile optimism around future breakthroughs.

2.Renewable Energy is Economic

  • In limited cases, yes. In many cases, only in a trivial sense for a limited set of costs associated with these resources.
  • While the marginal cost of production for wind and solar is low, approaching zero:
    • Total cost including backup and system needs tells a different story. #8 , #9, #2, & #20
      • Costly investments in grid improvements and backup generation are needed to accommodate and support any significant amount of intermittent asynchronous generation . #3 & #17
      • Operationally there are significant dispatch costs for backing up wind and solar.
    • Wind and solar projects typically are in service for far shorter periods than projected.
  • The more wind and solar added to the system, the more costly they become.
    • Work best at low generation levels when they allow more costly resources to back down.
    • The lower their generation level, the more the system can accommodate them without additional costs. #2 & #26
    • It is demonstrated worldwide that increased levels of these resources are associated with higher electric costs for consumers and taxpayers.
  • While home solar can be subsidized to appear low cost, it is misleading for the big picture, especially as applications increase. #6 & #5
  • Average costs are misleading and cost measures such as LCOE are flawed as they do not reflect real world requirements. #8, #3, & #9
  • Undoubtedly premature to advocate that that a resource is economic, without considerations of reliability, deliverability and its potential operation in conjunction within a resource mix as part of a grid.

3.Renewable energy sources can provide reliable electric service to consumers and support the grid.

  • Statement may be trivially true, but is generally inaccurate.
  • Generally, it is an accurate assessment for hydro, biomass and geothermal. #3 & #12
    • These involve traditional rotating machines in synch with the grid. They inherently supply essential reliability services for grid support.
    • These resources have flexibility for dispatch and ramping.
    • Geothermal and biomass are greatly restricted by local geography.
    • New applications of these resources face especially significant environmental challenges.
  • Not so true for wind and solar generation. #12 & #26
    • They provide energy intermittently and do not match demand patterns. #2, #3, & #41
    • They do not spin in synchronism with the grid which has seriously inhibits their ability to support the grid. #7
    • They depend on the grid and synchronous rotating machines. #17
    • Problems associated with these resources increase as their penetration levels increase. #7
  • Supposed “proofs” that wind and solar support the system generally come from cherrypicked brief off-peak periods when renewable generation exceeded demand (not really a good thing.)
    • Grid support must be 24 hours/day during peak and extreme conditions. Configurations should ensure that the grid can go ten years with one loss of load expectation (LOLE).
    • Coasting through an off-peak period does not imply sustainability.
    • Where wind and solar match load, it is near certain that considerable spinning rotational machines (hydro or fossil fuel) are on the interconnected grid backing up these resources either serving other load not counted, or on-line spinning ready to take on load. #21
    • They may just come from accounting efforts, with no attention to flows or time periods.
  • Cost comparisons without considering reliability differences are worthless.

4.Renewable resources are inexhaustible and widely available.

  • The resources needed to construct and maintain such facilities as well as resources needed to back them up are not inexhaustible. #40
  • Geothermal is rarely available and some geothermal can be depleted.
  • Further hydro development is problematic in most of the developed world. In the US some dams are being eliminated to return to a more “natural” state.
  • Suitability for wind and solar varies considerably by region.
  • All resource needs for using generation resources should be considered. #40
    • Scarce resources are needed in the production of wind and solar power.
    • Expected sustainability before depletion may be higher for nuclear power and some fossil fuel generating resources, than for resources needed for wind, solar and battery facilities. Of course, emerging developments may change expectations for any resource. 

5.Clean Energy resources don’t produce carbon and are environmentally neutral. #40

  • Adverse impacts from “green” resources have typically received considerably less attention from the media, policy makers and advocates than similar impacts from conventional generation.
    • Although when it’s in their backyard, the problems of wind, hydro and large solar emerge and they become targets of local environmental groups.
    • Over time, the adverse impacts related to their operation and disposal become more and more evident. Recycling is challenging to impossible for the large structural components and also the scarce resources needed for energy conversion.
  • The construction, maintenance and operation of such resources produce significant environmental impact including CO2 emissions.
  • Geothermal generation produces CO2.
  • Backup generators are often run inefficiently to allow for wind and solar generation.
    • Cases of fossil fuel, wind and solar generation may have higher emissions than similar cases with only fossil fuel generation running more efficiently.

6.Renewable Energy Costs are decreasing over time

  • Some components are dropping – but total costs are more questionable as there is considerable data showing costs are rising.
    • Often cost data refers only to specific components that are decreasing, not the full cost for the installed facilities needed to generate energy and power.
    • In particular, land and labor push up costs associated with wind and solar.
  • Increasing penetration levels raise overall costs for solar, wind and batteries. #26

7.It will become easier to add renewables as we become more familiar with the technologies.

  • Only easier in limited ways attributable to things like experience and benefits of scope.
  • Exponentially harder to add increasing levels of wind, solar and batteries. #26 & #2
    • Asynchronous and intermittent resources are harder to integrate as their levels increase.
    • Prime renewable locations will already be exploited, and less desirable locations remain.
    • Continued developments entails the need to move energy longer and longer distances.
    • As wind and solar increase, early adopters will be less able to lean on neighboring systems.

8.The intermittency problems associated with wind and solar can be addressed through batteries.

  • Possibly, but at a great cost and added complexity. #2, #41, & #43
  • This assertion is extremely misleading when it implies that intermittency is the main problem.
    • Compared to the problems associated with asynchronism and the capabilities of inverter-based generation, intermittency is a much smaller problem.
    • Hiding/ignoring misleading points in the green narrative. #44
    • Asynchronism is the problem more so than intermittency.

9.Inverter based generation from wind, solar and batteries can be made to perform like conventional rotating generator technology.  #43, #41, #3, & #19

  • Note – most people are not aware of the asynchronous problems associated with wind, solar and batteries.
  • When these elements let the grid down, the cry is “make the grid more resilient” as if that has some real meaning.
    • Enhanced inverters may perform “like” rotating elements in limited environments, but this “like” way is radically inferior to the performance of rotating generators. #30, #29
    • Inverter performance may improve with technological advances. However, they have an extremely long way to go.
      • Theoretically they can do a lot rotating machines cannot, but the complexity of taking advantage of that while coordinating with other changing elements across the grid so they all perform well together across all potential contingency conditions is immense.
      • Similar optimism exists for superconductors to improve the grids reliability and efficiency, but it would be extremely foolish to depend on either to support a planned energy transition. They are far from being judged as feasible.
    • This is the biggest problem the green narrative overlooks and is the major stumbling block to widespread integration of wind, solar and batteries.
  • When that problem can’t get ignored, the green narrative is to back up and have someone say with technological improvements, inverters can perform “like” synchronous generation without any recognition of the drawbacks.
  • When inverters are made to provide extra functionality, it raises the installed costs and entails a significant reduction in energy output and reliability.
  • Three phases of Inverter development, none have achieved widespread use
    • Pseudo inertia (synthetic inertia), Grid supporting, Grid Forming.
      • Phases are more goal oriented or aspirational than accomplishment based.
      • Each is intended to do more than the previous “development” phase to “mimic” rotating generators.
      • Research and applications are largely on paper, in laboratories and pilot programs. Few if any working plants are gaining needed operational experience.
    • The early phases were sold as “the way” to allow higher penetration of inverter-based generation but were found not be able to deliver as promised.
    • The insufficiency of these approaches was recognized long before any large-scale implementations were undertaken (Note-generally phased development follows a widespread deployment of earlier phases prior to successive improved phases. In this area, the task is so far beyond the capabilities that prior phases can’t really show much proof of concept in the field.)
    • Why should we expect the latest grid forming phase to do better than predecessors?
    • Overwhelmingly, most wind and solar applications on the grid do not have functioning special inverter capabilities of any sort.

10.Battery improvements will enable the green energy transition.

  • As discussed previously, batteries may address intermittency, but not the major problem of inverter-based generation.
    • Batteries suffer from the same inverter based problems as wind and solar.
    • Their inability to adequately provided needed system reliability services is usually not addressed. #29
    • Much is made of continual reports on improvements in battery technology
      • Many breakthroughs in research but they take development in differing directions and are not compatible with most of the other breakthroughs. “Breakthroughs” are typically not cumulative, corroborative or generally able to be combined.
        • Inverter-based improvements needed for wind, solar and batteries suffer from similar development challenges.
        • Consider the path of high temperature superconductors which were projected in the near term, but hit a wall before widespread practical applications could be employed.)
      • To control for extreme weather events (e.g. Dunkelflaute) might require that batteries completely ignore wind and solar capacity. Leaving tremendous amounts of unused capacity most of the time.

11.We are at a tipping point for renewables. #44

  • Which renewables are included is debatable. #40
  • Tipping point is not defined and only weak evidence is cited. –  #44

12.Wind Solar and Battery technologies collectively contribute to a cleaner environment, economic growth, energy security, and a sustainable future. #40 & #42

  • They might contribute small amounts at low penetration, but they are dwarfed by huge drawbacks at higher penetration levels.
  • In delicate environments, small compact fossil fuel-based energy sources may be superior to renewable resources with more intrusive footprints. #14
  • See v above.

13.The world is facing severe consequences from increased CO2 emissions.

  • The greater the risks from increasing CO2, the less we can afford to favor wind, solar and battery technology over more pragmatic approaches. #32
  • This is the most dangerous component to be incorporated into this narrative.
    • Because of this fear, it is argued we must chase bad ideas. #18
    • Because of this fear, dissent from these bad ideas is demonized. #18
    • Because of this fear, we must move to a panic mode and do counterproductive things. #1
      • The greater the risk from climate change:
        • The smarter we need to be.
        • The less we can tolerate bad ideas and wasted efforts.
      • Climate concerns do not change the physics of the grid nor the functioning of resources.
        • However, extreme weather will make “green” resources less suitable.
        • While the need for reliable, affordable power will be greater.
      • Green plans misdirect a lot of resources and weaken energy policy approaches. #42
        • If situation is that grim as regards CO2 emissions:
          • Perhaps that should outweigh any concerns around nuclear energy.
          • Perhaps environmental damage from new hydro is warranted as well to address climate.
          • If new nuclear and hydro are out, changing civilization is an option that needs to be on the table, frequently discussed and fully considered.
          • False appeals to questionable technologies will not help us.
          • False hopes of improving technology will only hurt us.

14.There will be an inevitable and necessary transition to clean economic renewables

  • When? It is very unlikely to be in the foreseeable future and certainly not in a planning time frame.

15.Green Energy will allow independence from world energy markets

  • We depend on other countries for material and components needed to construct renewable facilities.
  • Wind, solar and batteries cannot run steel mills and industrial processes needed for a “green” energy transition, not sustain civilization after (unless you call nuclear and hydro green)..
  • How is the fear of “foreign oil” so much more of concern than dependence on rare earth metals and other foreign imports.

16.The clean grid will facilitate clean buses, trucks, tanks, and planes

  • Not if it doesn’t work.
  • Wind, solar and batteries alone clearly cannot provide for such growth in electric consumption.

17.The third world will bypass fossil fuels and promote global equity

  • Nonsense

18.Replacing fossil fuels with green energy will have huge health benefits

  • More costly energy is associated with alternative use of dirty fuels creates hazardous pollution in many third world areas.
  • Rising costs of electricity generally encourages less clean alternatives that are more difficult to monitor.

19.It’s all about Urgency and Action

  • If urgency and action could dependably solve hard problems, years ago we’d have a cure for cancer and the common cold, flying cars, jet packs and ended world hunger.

It might be argued that the above refutations (even with citations) are too quick and lack detailed substantial evidence. While there is quite a bit out there that can be referenced, it should be pointed out that the arguments supporting a green transition are asserted without with much serious reasoning and far flimsier support than provided here.  That which is easily asserted without foundation should not require overly demanding refutations. Clearly when and if more detailed claims supporting a green energy transition are made, they can be answered with more detailed rebuttals.

Academics are a key part of the problem of a sustained false narrative. Much of the “evidence” out there comes from small studies of single variables with academic models which are stretched far behind what was analyzed.  Additionally, expert opinions come from many “experts” who “preach” far outside their fields of expertise and training. There are rewards in academia for furthering optimism on the green transition.  There are not so many incentives for nay-sayers.  Academics who understand the problems and would offer caution, generally do not have the reach of those who promote optimism by clouding the facts.  The many half-truths presented from different sources cannot be summed up to imply a credible narrative, even though many have the impression this makes a strong case.  #44

Clearly there are many discontinuities between theory and what is observed in the real world as regards the potential for wind, solar and batteries.  Milton Friedman said, “One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.” I’d add, “What happens in the field should be more convincing what you calculated on paper”.  The next section will cover truths that need to be added to any considerations around our energy future.

Truths that need to be part of Energy Transition Narrative

These truths don’t get near as much attention as the above. Sometimes they are hidden and sometimes they are summarily denied rather than given the attention they deserve.

1)Adequately addressing the energy future requires we understand the true costs and benefits of ALL available and potentially available technologies. #1 & #3

2)Large grids are dependent upon and run on rotating machines. #3, #7, #11, #26 & #12

3)No Grids run on asynchronous generation only (or majority asynchronous) without significant backup.

  • Despite reports that wind, solar and batteries power a system – real world cases always involve significant conventional generation backing them up somewhere on the interconnected grid.
  • Asynchronous wind, solar and batteries without rotating backup resources are not feasible power supply element for large power systems.

4)Hydro, biomass and geothermal are fine for grid support, but are problematic and/or not available in many areas.

5)Wind and solar face major challenges in achieving significant penetration levels and have many underdiscussed issues.

  • Wind and solar resources have more limited lifespans and greater costs than typically modeled. #8 & #9 Batteries may be worse.
  • Expected performance during and after disasters is often over-exaggerated.

6)Costs of Wind and solar resources are often hidden and assigned to others. #5, #6, & #31

  • Rates that are subsidized by non-users. #5
  • Support costs are built into the transmission or distribution rate and paid by others.
  • Shorter life and costlier maintenance and replacements.
    • Ivanpah Solar facility ($2.2 Billion. 400 MW) shuttered in 11th year because it’s not worth the operating costs to keep the “free” energy online.
    • Wind Turbines have short lives and costly repairs.

7)If Nuclear is the right direction, current efforts at wind and solar are misguided. Nuclear plants run best full out with low incremental cost.   Displacing nuclear with intermittent wind and solar makes little to no sense.

8)It’s possible to subsidize a few things that have small costs to support development of green resources, but small costs multiplied by orders of magnitude are crushing. #6

9)Utility costs are regressive, dis-proportionally hitting those less well-off and least able to afford rising costs. These costs are more regressive than taxation schemes. #5 #6, & #31

10)If we must cut carbon emissions without nuclear and hydro, drastically changing civilization is an option that needs to be on the table, openly and frequently discussed and given full considered.

11)Energy Markets are not working well.  My take is energy provision cannot effectively and efficiently be broken into separated independent components. Utilities used to provide an amalgamation of goods and services for their customers.  Separating out distribution, and transmission services increase complexity, but still doesn’t set up energy or its components as commodities. Separate commodities for hourly energy, capacity, emergency power, reliability services, backup power, and spinning reserve eliminate many of the efficiencies available from full-service power supply. For example: daily energy markets don’t support long term emergency power. Who pays for facilities needed for only once in a decade extreme weather, and when and how do they pay for it?  Daily markets drive those resources which have emergency value out of business. Perhaps I am wrong, but experience tells us markets uncharacteristically are not working well for energy and energy services. #45

12)Credible plans for any electric energy future, let alone a major transition, will need to integrate studies of both supply and deliverability while balancing economics, costs and public responsibility. No conclusions about what may be worthwhile is possible without such considerations. #16 & #39

Other Topics that need to be considered

A)China and India’s CO2 emissions will likely dwarf emissions from western nations soon. Which is a more effective role for the US:

  1. As a leader developing, promoting and sharing clean fossil-based technologies to be emulated by developing and third world nations. #36
  2. As a leader among advanced nations promoting green technologies largely overlooked by most of the planet as they use less clean resources and their emissions grow exponentially?

B)What about developing countries in the third world? How we can hold them back by requiring they use a path that we can’t make work.  Their burdens are more significant than ours.

  1. Economic barriers – high initial investment or crushing burdens from foreign loans.
  2. Human capital -technical skill needs.
  3. These resources work even less well without an established strong grid.
  4. Often more extreme climates increase challenges.
  5. Specialized problems such as theft, waste management, and cultural acceptance.

C)Can effective regulation, as opposed to current regulatory practices revive nuclear construction significantly?

D)Energy density problem (EROEI) – Can solar and wind provide enough energy to be self-perpetuating considering full lifetime needs?

  1. There is no significant production of “green” infrastructure with wind and solar energy.
  2. Wind and solar infrastructure depend today on fossil fuel-based energy for their construction and operation.

E)Grid and energy prices are globally critical to healthy economies and a reasonable quality of life.

F)How do we incentivize policy makers to prioritize long term goals versus what’s expedient the next few years. #38 & #1

  1. Imprudent short-term boosts (ignoring maintenance, depleting reserves) provide temporary advantages while building for the future initially entails greater costs.
  2. For job evaluations, it’s easier to see what was done, rather than evaluate the long-term benefits of such programs
  3. Engineers professionally suffer for not supporting green goals
  4. Supporting green goals has rewards for practicing engineers.
  5. I have never seen anyone recognized & rewarded for standing up for the grid ten years ago.
  6. Bad incentives and the hope that technology or policy changes will arrive on time before things have gotten too bad, keeps most of those who might speak out in check.

G)How do we combat feel-good narratives? Energy is much more complex than recycling. Despite great under-achievement, renewable hopes have persisted for long time periods.  Will the false hopes of wind, solar and batteries be just as intractable despite real world experience?

How Does the Green Energy Narrative Remain Strong Despite the Big Picture?

It’s hard to argue against the “green energy“ agenda. “There’s always something just around the corner that’s going to change everything”, we’re often told (#34, #43 & #24 ).  It’s seductive, “Somebody is investing a lot of money now in the next great thing and we should be part of that as well.” But those things don’t pan out.  There is broad support and rewards for going along with the “green” narrative, even for projects as ridiculous as “electric roadways” ( #42) and especially for projects as big and bold as the German Energiewende.  A decade ago, when warning of emerging  problems, countless times I was told that Germany had proved it could be done.  In this piece (#21) in 2017, a coauthor and I tried to point out the problems with that representation. Despite voices like ours, the world remained largely impervious to criticisms of the German experiment. By the time Germany’s huge failure became apparent for all to see, the argument moved on to Australia where “it’s now  being proved it can be done”.  Chris Morris and I did a series (#33, #34, #35) on Australia in 2023 highlighting our understandings of those efforts and our expectations for underperformance.  It’s not looking good for Australia, or England or for any who have raced to have high penetrations of wind and solar.  But dismal real-world results so far have not been much of a brake on the movement.  Renewable “experts” remain undeterred and unmoved by failed ideas.( #37)

Prior to the green energy narratives, there had been near continuous progress with engineers building and maintaining stronger and more robust grids that held up well across varied challenging conditions.  The trend was that widespread grid outages (not the same as distribution outages) were becoming increasingly rare as grids became more robust and resilient. The beginnings of the “green transition” served to slow and reverse that progress. Most grids are sufficiently strong such that significant degradations do not show up as system problems for quite some time. The likelihood that problems won’t manifest for some years down the road makes it hard for defenders of the grid to stand up to short term pressures to go greener. (#38)

The strong robustness of the grid makes it hard to clearly identify and point out emerging problems with the grid.  As I wrote here (#27)

The power system is the largest, most complicated wonderful machine ever made. At any given time, it must deal with multiple problems and remain stable. No resources are perfect; in a large system you will regularly find numerous problems occurring across the system. Generally, a power system can handle multiple problems and continue to provide reliable service. However, when a system lacks supportive generation sources, it becomes much more likely it will not be able function reliably when problems occur.

When an outage occurs, you can always choose to point a finger at any of the multiple things that went wrong. (#44, #26)   Some traditional fossil fuel technology will always be included in the set of things that were not right.  (Loss of just renewables doesn’t usually cause big problems because apart from energy, they don’t support the system while in service.) For various reasons, advocates insist the finger should be pointed away from renewables (and the gap in needed system support) and at the conventional technology that was not perfect when the outage occurred.  It’s critical to note that conventional technology is never perfect across a large system, however we were able to make reliable robust systems that could easily accommodate such imperfections. But now the presence of less dependable resources and inverter-based energy makes systems far less robust, even during times when those problematic resources are working well. It’s  a near sure bet the next large grid outage will be largely caused by problems associated with high levels of wind and solar penetration, whether those resources are available during the outage or not.  That bet can’t be made, because no referee acceptable to both sides can be found.

Conclusions

The case for an energy transition based on wind, solar and batteries is grossly incomplete and stands against evidence and reason.  The green narratives sub-propositions in isolation contain some truths, but they are extended in misleading ways.   A collection of 200, 800, or ten million studies showing that isolated challenges around renewable resources can be addressed cannot make a case for reliable, affordable deliverable energy.  When the resources are ready, proponents can make a case by operating a small system without connection to conventional generation that experiences  varied load conditions and real-world challenges.  When a case for large scale penetration of wind, solar, and batteries has been made with adequate considerations of costs, reliability and deliverability, it can then be reviewed and challenged with detail.

Planning must balance economics, reliability and environmental responsibility using  real workable technology which conforms with the physics of the grid and meets the needs of society (#15,#16, #25, #23 & #32).  Electric supply and the grid are too important to base policies upon poor narratives and incomplete understandings. Hope for future improvements must be based on realistic expectations.  Going a short way down the “green” path is easy.  Adding a bit more “renewables: isn’t that expensive and the gird is plenty robust for incremental hits.  For most involved, it’s easier to go with that flow than to stand up for long-term concerns.  But we are getting closer to the cliff as costs continue to increase and reliability problems become more prevalent. 

Policy makers need to consider a fuller and more complete array of truths around renewables and the grid. Rigorous considerations of many complex and interlinking issues between generation and transmission are needed to build and support modern grids. No-one, even those with a lifetime in the business, fully understands everything involved. Experience and incremental changes have served the development and operation of the grid well.  Many outside “experts”,  have next to no real knowledge of the complexities involved and propose dramatic changes. Without serious and time-consuming efforts from policy makers, real grid experts can’t compete with proposals that are basically founded upon tee-shirt slogans.  Spending money, altering systems, and hoping for the best based on the green narrative alone is a recipe for disaster. 

Notes

Thanks to Meridith Angwin, Roger Caiazza and Chris Morris for reviewing drafts and providing useful comments.  I’ve tried to do a lot here in a limited space and the treatment is somewhat uneven across the broad range of topics. I welcome others to improve and build upon these ideas and structures.  I would be glad to assist in such efforts as long as it is not tied to other political, religious, or social issues.  My focus is on energy and encouraging reasonable energy policies and regulations. 

Previous Postings and Articles Referenced

  1. Myths and Realities of Renewable Energy – 2014/10/22  
  2. More renewables? Watch out for the Duck Curve – 2014/11/05
  3. All megawatts are not equal – 2014/12/11
  4. Taxonomy of climate/energy policy perspectives – 2015/02/03
  5. Clean Air – Who Pays? – 2015/02/09
  6. What should renewables pay for grid service? – 2015/04/21
  7. Transmission planning: wind and solar – 2015/05/07
  8. True costs of wind electricity – 2015/05/12
  9. Solar grid parity? 2015/05/31
  10. Why Skeptics hate climate skeptics – 2015/06/03
  11. Microgrids and “Clean” Energy – 2015/07/28
  12. Renewables and grid reliability 2016/01/06
  13. Energy strategies: horses for courses – 2016/03/20
  14. Energy and Environment on the “Garden Island” – 2016/06/16
  15. Drivers & Determinants for Power System Entities, Electric Energy (RMEL), Summer 2016,
  16. Balance and the Grid – 2016/09/12
  17. Reports of the Electric Grid’s Death Have Been Greatly Exaggerated Power Magazine 2017/04/1
  18. Science Marchers, Secretary Perry’s Memo and Bill Nye’s Optimism – 2017/04/24
  19. Renewable resources and the importance of generation diversity – 2017/05/09
  20. The Grid End Game T&D World 2017/06/26
  21. Myth of the German Renewable Energy Miracle – T&D World 2017/10/23
  22. Trying to Make Sense of Musk Love and Solar Hype – 2017/10/27
  23. Third-World Grid, Smart Grid or a Smart Grid? T&D World 2018/6/25
  24. Reflections on Energy Blogging – 2019/10/21
  25. Will California “learn” to avoid Peak Rolling Blackouts? – 2022/09/12
  26. The Penetration Problem. Part I: Wind and Solar – The More You Do, The Harder It Gets -2022/10/3
  27. The Penetration Problem. Part II: Will the Inflation Reduction Act Cause a Blackout? – 2022/10/11
  28. Academics and the grid Part I: I don’t think that study means what you think it means – 2023/01/04
  29. Academics and the grid. Part II: Are they studying the right things? – 2023/01/09
  30. Academics and the Grid Part 3: Visionaries and Problem Solvers – 2023/01/15
  31. Green energy: Don’t stick Granny with the bill – 23/01/29
  32. Net Zero or Good Enough? – 2023/02/09
  33. Australian Renewable Integration – Part 1 – 2023/03/02
  34. Australian Renewable Integration – Part 2 – 2023/03/08
  35. Australian Renewable Integration – Part 3 – 2023/03/11
  36. The Earths Green Future is Forked – 2023/04/03
  37. Renewable Experts: Undeterred and Unmoved by Failed Ideas – 2023/04/17
  38. Silence of the Grid Experts – 23/05/03
  39. Fauci, Fear, Balance and the Grid – 2023/05/08
  40. Time to retire the term ‘renewable energy’ from serious discussion and energy policy directives – 2024/02/05
  41. Time to Retire the Term “Renewable Energy” from Serious Discussions and Policy Directives: Part II – 2024/02/16
  42. Time to Retire the Term “Renewable Energy” from Serious Discussions and Policy Directives: Part 3 – 2024/02/22
  43. Wind and Solar Can’t Support the Grid – 2024/12/05
  44. How the Green Energy Narrative Confuses Things – 2025/1/30
  45. Assigning Blame for the Blackouts in Texas – 2021/2/18
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Michael Flynn
February 19, 2025 6:20 pm

How do we incentivize policy makers to prioritize long term goals versus what’s expedient the next few years . . “

You can’t – the “policy makers” are politicians – participants in a beauty contest (in “democracies”, at least). Short terms goals consist of getting elected, and staying elected.

Sounds fair to me, politicians are no better able to peer into the future than an “expert.”

Long term goals? World peace, no poverty, and a cure for cancer – how’s that for starters?

Homo sapiens is a very recent occurrence. Might be just another one of Nature’s dead ends – who knows.

In the meantime, just keep using Nature’s stored bounty – fossil fuels, uranium, etc. Until something better comes along. Just as people in the past used candles and kerosene lamps – until something better came along.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Michael Flynn
February 20, 2025 8:01 am

And keep looking for the something better. Not every idea will pan out so keep looking.

February 19, 2025 6:45 pm

At present, the average atmospheric concentration of CO2 is increasing by about 2.5 parts per million (ppm) per year. Radiative transfer calculations show that this produces an increase in the downward long wave IR (LWIR) flux from the lower atmosphere (troposphere) to the surface of about 40 milliwatts per square meter per year. This cannot cause any measurable climate change. Nor can it have any influence on ‘extreme weather events’.
 
The need for an immediate green energy transition has been created using fraudulent climate models. Any climate model that has an equilibrium climate sensitivity (ECS) larger than ‘too small to measure’ is fraudulent. The results from such models should not be used to determine energy policy. 
 
The supply of fossil fuels is large, but not unlimited. This can be addressed by using nuclear energy. There is no need for utility scale wind or solar energy, battery storage, hydrogen or carbon capture. The use of electric vehicles should be determined by free market choices without subsidies.
 
The first step for a rational discussion on energy is to recognize and reject the climate modeling fraud.  
 
For more on the climate modeling fraud see ‘A Nobel Prize for Climate Modeling Errors’, Clark, 2024 and the Tom Nelson podcast # 271
 

rogercaiazza
February 19, 2025 7:05 pm

Thanks to Russ Schussler for this handy reference of rebuttals to the talking points of the usual suspects. I am going to bookmark this one for sure.

Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 7:07 pm

“The purpose of this article is to summarize and debunk many of the issues in the narrative surrounding the proposed green energy transition as applies to the electric grid. The issues are so numerous that this piece is at once both too long and too short.”

The main problem is that it is a laundry list with no quantification. There are links, but the reader can’t possibly put together a quantification from that. I’ll take issue just with:
“How did this narrative become so widely accepted despite dismal real-world results?”

The results are not dismal. The power has stayed on everywhere. But I’d cite South Australia as a success story. They famously blew up their coal stations in 2016, and relied heavily on increasing renewables (75% in 2023). SA had had the nation’s highest wholesale prices in coal days, but went to being lower than the coal states, exceeding only Tasmania and Victoria (also renewable focussed).

comment image

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 7:38 pm

Not a valid example Nick.
SA has come to rely on electricity from neighboring states Victoria, Tasmania and even NSW if they can.

Let’s consider Germany’s experiences with wind & solar.

Reply to  Mr.
February 19, 2025 8:07 pm

SA electricity needs are a tiny fraction of the NEM.

Its demand and production are basically insignificant, and so long as it remains connected to the NEM, will have similar prices.

As it is, they often have to rely on transfers to SA from Victoria, and fossil fuel powered electricity using diesel.

Victoria does not rely on transfers from SA, those transfers are too small to make much difference..

… SA is really just a parasite on the NEM.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  bnice2000
February 19, 2025 9:35 pm

SA is really just a parasite on the NEM”

Not true. Here from the AEMO Q4 report are the figures on trade. Interchange between Vic and SA is even, not more than 50 MW either way. SA uses about 1.8 GW.

comment image

Iain Reid
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 12:34 am

Nick,

you canno0t just look at power levels. Even if the power is flowing from NSW to a neighbour, the fact that that neighbour has considerable synchronous generators is stabilising. Break the grid tie and see how long NSW stays live.
You need to really understand the mechanics before we will take you seriously.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Iain Reid
February 20, 2025 1:14 am

You seem mixed up about geography. NSW, as in the diagram above, does not export. It imports from just about everybody, and does not yet have a connection with SA.

SA does not seem to have stability problems. It installed the country’s first big battery, which made a fortune providing FCAS services to everyone.

antigtiff
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 7:40 pm

So……they have saved the planet? Good, now let’s get on with life aND NO MORE TALK ABOUT THIS, ok?

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  antigtiff
February 20, 2025 8:04 am

The science was settled more than 4 decades ago and how many $T?

Mr.
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 7:42 pm

Ps – have you seen that Whyalla’s SA “green steel” foundary has foundered?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Mr.
February 19, 2025 9:47 pm

Whyalla wasn’t green steel. It was an unimproved plant from about 70 years ago, that the foreign GHG did not invest money in. No hydrogen was ever implemented.

And the plant hasn’t foundered – just trhe financing. It will continue.

leefor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 10:53 pm

With 2.4 billion of taxpayer funds, on top of the taxes that weren’t paid to State or Fed Governments. And a new buyer, if found, and the capacity is far too small according to The Conversation Monologue.

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 7:45 pm

Then explain why Florida, which has a low renewable penetration, has much lower electricity rates than California?.

As for saving fuel costs, at $4/million BTU for natural gas, the fuel cost for CCGT works out to be less than $23/MWHr.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Erik Magnuson
February 19, 2025 9:59 pm

One reason is that California, too, has not much renewable penetration. Texas has far more, and Iowa far more as a %. Both have prices at least no higher than Florida.

$23/MWHr? Total wholesale price is often about $40/MWh.

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 7:59 am

$23/MWHr is just for the fuel cost and might be a bit under for total incremental costs. $40/MWHr would include O&M, cost of capital and various taxes and fees.

One reason for higher electricity costs in California is a combination of older rooftop solar owners getting retail price for energy and the costs of the capital needed for “renewable” energy sources along with costs of capital for dispatchable generation that has fewer hours to pay for the capital.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 7:57 pm

SA depends on Victorian brown coal for those “awkward” moments – especially overnight.
That is the issue.
There is a reason for Victoria’s ageing brown coal generators are being thrashed to death cycling from 50% capacity factor during daylight hours running at between 90% – 115% capacity factor overnight – intermittent solar and wind. Then when one of the poor, abused units needs repair, then it is broadcast as unreliable!

Viv-20250220
Reply to  jayrow
February 19, 2025 8:09 pm

Great post Jay.. reality spoke. !

Mr.
Reply to  jayrow
February 19, 2025 8:26 pm

^ this!

Nick Stokes
Reply to  jayrow
February 19, 2025 9:27 pm

“There is a reason for Victoria’s ageing brown coal generators are being thrashed to death cycling from 50% capacity factor during daylight hours”

Coal has always had to cope with such a variation. Here is the plotof Vic all sources over that time:

comment image

Peak demand is about twice min, as it was when they were built. They coped.

Here is the SA usage:

comment image

SA wasn’t importing – it had plenty of wind. Anyway, the interconnector is usually limited to about 600 MW.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 10:34 pm

Coal has always had to cope with such a variation.

Not quite Nick – before intermittents, they didn’t cycle much at all – check the difference between Feb’s 2015 and 2025 to date. It’s pretty easy to pick the windless nights for 2025.

We are also talking about 30+ year old units.



Vic-Feb-2015-25
Reply to  jayrow
February 19, 2025 10:51 pm

Not quite Nick – before intermittents, they didn’t cycle much at all

They’re still coping though. In fact it looks a whole lot easier to cope at that scale (ie daily). It used to run at around 6GW and now runs at 4GW with more variation downwards.

There’s obviously a whole lot less coal being burned now too.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 19, 2025 11:16 pm

 It used to run at around 6GW and now runs at 4GW 

2GW’s of units have been “retired”. Those left are running flat out at night to make up the loss in generation capacity.

Reply to  jayrow
February 20, 2025 12:53 am

But something else is providing those 2GW even at night.

oeman50
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 5:24 am

Solar! (See Spanish nighttime solar generation.)

oeman50
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 5:23 am

They are running on borrowed time. The cycling and the lack of major maintenance due to lack of funding is taking its toll.

And why the lack of maintenance? Who wants to spend large bucks on equipment that has no future or long term return on investment?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 10:45 pm

SA wasn’t importing – it had plenty of wind.

It also had plenty of fossil fuel backup – Nat gas, fuel oil and diesel gensets.

Easy to pick the windless nights again.

SA-Feb-2025
Reply to  jayrow
February 19, 2025 11:14 pm

And until storage catches up, this is how the grid has to be, to be stable. It’ll be interesting to see how that looks in another 10-20 years.

Ideally (IMO) we’d see fossil fuel (or even some SMRs) running at a low level fairly constantly and the the variation at night and when the wind isn’t blowing, largely covered by storage.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  jayrow
February 20, 2025 2:05 am

Easy to pick the windless nights again”

The point is that the lights stayed on and the prices went down (relatively). You can see in your plot that at least half the time they weren’t burning any fuel at all.


Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 2:57 am

That’s the other problem Nick – all that backup infrastructure investment standing idle. Who pays to keep them available?

Reply to  jayrow
February 20, 2025 4:02 am

all that backup infrastructure investment standing idle. Who pays to keep them available?

We all do. Its the cost of transition which cant happen overnight.

Would you rather we didn’t transition and instead let the market rule? We have plenty of experience with energy shocks and they never go well. Eventually we bring more fossil fuels online, though.

How do you think that’ll play out when the energy shock marks the actual end of fossil fuels with permanent decline in production?

Or are you one of the “it wont happen for hundreds of years” people?

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 5:37 am

Its the cost of transition which cant happen overnight.

I’m glad you’re not the project manager for building commercial aircraft!

Transition planning is, and should be, part of the overall project. You can’t deny that this part of project management has just been totally ignored.

Let’s just start doing something and see what happens is not project management by any stretch of the imagination. It will not turn out well for those of you that keep saying “let’s just muddle through”.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 20, 2025 11:24 am

Transition planning is, and should be, part of the overall project. You can’t deny that this part of project management has just been totally ignored.

Amusing Jim. To liken the global energy transition to a “project” with a project manager. Lol.

The closest thing for comparison might be implementing the global road system. That was well planned and managed wasn’t it.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 8:52 am

According to the IEA Australia is set to become the 4th largest producer of coal in the world by 2027, surpassing both the US and Russia, and leads the way in coal mining for export projects (46 out of 95 such projects worldwide).

It could easily start using more coal at home if the will was there.

IEA ‘Coal 2024 Analysis and Forecast to 2027’ (Dec. 2024)

Reply to  Dave Andrews
February 20, 2025 11:25 am

It could easily start using more coal at home if the will was there.

And we’ll use as much of it as it takes.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 1:17 pm

Or are you one of the “it wont happen for hundreds of years” people?

Not at all Tim. The sooner we adopt the nuclear option, be it SMR’s or conventional, the better.

If we start now, the timing will be right for them to come online when the first tranche of solar and wind reach their end of life.

Australia needs initiatives like the Texas A&M initiative

Reply to  jayrow
February 22, 2025 2:56 pm

Australia needs initiatives like the Texas A&M initiative

Incentives? First Australia needs to remove the ban on nuclear energy. That’s a fairly large disincentive.

And since a failed bill to reverse it was put up recently, I wouldn’t hold my breath another one will succeed any time soon.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  jayrow
February 20, 2025 10:53 am

Who pays to keep them available?”

There are actually capacity auctions. But it is in the nature of the business that capacity can’t be used all the time. Here is data on capacity factor from ten years ago, when there was little W&S:

comment image

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 1:10 am

Please use MW per HOUR..

Leon de Boer
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 8:05 pm

What left activist tosser publication told you that?

The ACCC and Vic government diasagree
https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/specific-products-and-activities/electricity-prices-and-plans
https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/about-energy/news/news-stories/energy-facts-renewables-and-electricity-prices

“South Australia has the highest average electricity prices in Australia, followed by Adelaide, the state capital with the most expensive electricity.”

Lets look at the NEM pricing analysis
https://www.leadingedgeenergy.com.au/news/electricity-market-review-latest/

The pricing is interesting reading but what really takes your eye

“The Australian Energy Markets Commission (AEMC) has approved the use of two French-owned diesel generators—Port Lincoln and Snuggery—as emergency backups for South Australia’s renewable-heavy energy grid.” 

Nick what the hell is that thing being approved in 2025 what about net-zero 🙂

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Leon de Boer
February 19, 2025 9:41 pm

Retail prices are higher, because of network costs – SA has a small customer base over a wide area. And also because, frankly, they are being ripped off by the retailers. But the wholesale price is the one that reflects generating costs.

Port Lincoln and Snuggery are at the remote ends of the grid. I suspect they were prompted by the Broken Hill experience.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 5:39 am

You are dancing around the issue instead of addressing it head on. Excuses don’t make for good analysis.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 9:02 am

Nick
The South Island of NZ is comparable to SA. Very long spine grid with a relatively small domestic customer base concentrated in a few urban areas. Christchurch is a lot smaller than Adelaide, but that should weigh in the latter’s favour for grid supply. Like SA, there is an interconnector to a bigger grid. Also like SA it often imports power over the night. Yet the retail price is about half the price and there are no subsidies. Why the difference?
And how many times do you have to be told that in the Australian market, it is so distorted by subsidies and costs hidden into other portions of the power bill that the “wholesale” price isn’t?.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Chris Morris
February 20, 2025 10:40 am

Why the difference?”

Hydro.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 10:17 pm

Then why is the wholesale price in the South Island higher than SA? Could it be that SA hides its costs of supporting the unreliables in the network charges?

Reply to  Chris Morris
February 20, 2025 11:30 am

It has a lot of geothermal energy.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 10:14 pm

No geothermal in the south island

Reply to  Chris Morris
February 21, 2025 10:40 pm

There’s an interconnector to it, though.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 19, 2025 8:14 pm

But I’d cite South Australia as a success story.

And I’d cite Broken Hill as a success story for Grid Forming batteries. It was only when the battery was configured to be Grid Forming and provide synthetic inertia that the grid (with renewables + diesel generators) stabilised.

The argument “Research and applications are largely on paper, in laboratories and pilot programs. Few if any working plants are gaining needed operational experience.” is silly. Why would you subject your grid to possible instability and law suits to try it?

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 8:12 am

money

Iain Reid
Reply to  Nick Stokes
February 20, 2025 12:31 am

Nick,
just how long are you going to keep beating your head against a wall of un arguable facts?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Iain Reid
February 20, 2025 1:16 am

I have been presenting facts. Do you have any?

Leon de Boer
February 19, 2025 7:43 pm

The biggest impact on energy transition in the last 20 years has been done in the last few weeks by president Trump. There is no exemption under US anti-trust law for USG initiatives and the laws and the threat to use them against climate-change as well as DEI policies has sent companies scrambling to exit associations promoting it.

The Net Zero Banking Alliance and other financing groups are firmly in the cross hairs of the Trump Administration using the laws. That is going to make financing some of these renewable transition projects much more difficult.

Erik Magnuson
February 19, 2025 7:51 pm

Russ, I have a question of the transition from directly connected induction and synchronous motors to inverter fed motors in a number of applications. Both provide some inertia to the grid and synchronous motors can provide some voltage support as well. The question is this a cause for concern?

February 19, 2025 7:51 pm

Asynchronism is the problem more so than intermittency.

Intermittency is a far greater issue than asynchronous operation. South Australia has resolved frequency/stability issue in the millisecond range using synchronous condensers and above millisecond using battery.

Solving intermittency using batteries is about two orders of magnitude higher cost than solving stability issues.

Places like Flinders Island use a large flywheel on their diesel generator and separate battery to stabilise their system.

Reply to  RickWill
February 19, 2025 10:57 pm

Intermittency is a far greater issue than asynchronous operation.

Agreed. Intermittency can only be fixed by having sufficient capacity 24x7x365 whereas asynchronous operation could in principle be as easy as a software update or at worst different electronics.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 7:20 am

whereas asynchronous operation could in principle be as easy as a software update or at worst different electronics.

You are equating two different issues. Intermittency is no power available.

Asynchronous operation has to do with the relationship between voltage and current and the instantaneous provision of power as these shift in phase relationship. If you want folks to know that you have some expertise show the integral form of power and what occurs when the sine of voltage and cosine of current are not in sync.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 20, 2025 11:36 am

You need to read and understand what’s being said. The two disparate issues are being compared because someone claimed that one of them was a bigger issue than the other. My response refutes the claim that asynchronous operation is the biggest issue by pointing out that its easier to change.

aplanningengineer
Reply to  RickWill
February 20, 2025 6:26 am

At lower pentration levels I might agree that intermittency is a bigger problem than asynchronism. At high penetration levels I would argue this relationship shifts.

aplanningengineer
Reply to  RickWill
February 20, 2025 6:29 am

My first reference discussed flywheels – However a renewable system could be coupled with extensive batteries and other storage devices, large mechanical flywheels and condensers (basically an unpowered motor/generator that can spit out or consume reactive power). These devices could approximate the behaviors of our conventional power system but they would require huge and prohibitive costs. On top of the renewable resources, the total cost for such a system would be many multiples times the cost of our current systems.

But I think the control challenges of inverters, flywheelsl, condensors… is staggering. Our grids work due to slow incremental changes.

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  aplanningengineer
February 20, 2025 8:17 am

As would be explained on any textbook on design and operation of electric power systems, such as Electric Energy Systems Theory by Olle Elgerd. One item of note was the governor having a proportional feedback to give a slight droop in frequency as load increases to promote sharing of load generators.

SDG&E recently installed a synchronous condensor in response to increased asynchronous generation, I suspect that the rotor’s inertia was a desired feature. The sad part was that the synchronous condensor had to be imported.

aplanningengineer
Reply to  Erik Magnuson
February 20, 2025 10:12 am

The problem is not EE 101 “How do things work during normal grid operations?”, but how do the elements perform during the widespead oscillaitons that are part of a stability problem. This may be of interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hH23MI4NpcPower System Stability With a High Penetration of Inverter-Based Resources”

Reply to  aplanningengineer
February 20, 2025 11:17 am

The problem is not EE 101 “How do things work during normal grid operations?”,

You are dealing with folks that have little knowledge about what can happen on 240 kv lines or distribution lines carrying hundreds of amps. They have no education on system control. Multiple points of failure – no clue!

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 20, 2025 12:49 pm

System control as in what could go wrong with constant speed props driven by turbocharged engines? The US Army asked Bell Labs for help with the B-17’s and this is where modern control theory got its start. Compared to keeping a grid stable, the B17 problem was mere child’s play.

Then again, most people would assume that power flow would be determined voltage differences between nodes as opposed to real answer being the phase difference between nodes. This is what’s behind the concern for maintaining grid stability.

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  aplanningengineer
February 20, 2025 12:37 pm

No arguments from me on that. My point in bringing up a power systems textbook is show what resources are provided by synchronous machines. A simple example would be comparing a synchronous condensor. with a capacitor bank for voltage stabilization. The VAR output of a synchronous machine will decrease with increasing terminal voltage, hence limiting voltage rise while the VAR output from capacitors will increase with increasing line voltage and exacerbate the voltage rise (i.e. destabilize).

Another example is the damper windings on synchronous machines which react to the rate of change in frequency as in the case of a system transient.

The T.A. for my electrical machinery class told about an incident in the rebuilding of post-war Czechoslovakia, where a generator was being brought up for the first time. There was a wiring error, where two of the phases were switched and the same error on the lines for indicating synchronism. Needless to say, all hell broke loose when the breaker was closed (The generator was destroyed).

Reply to  aplanningengineer
February 20, 2025 12:44 pm

The problem is not EE 101 “How do things work during normal grid operations?”, but how do the elements perform during the widespead oscillaitons that are part of a stability problem.

Good reference, thanks.

Grid Forming inverters could probably be implemented to bloody mindedly model rotating inertial devices but they’re not.

The fact is that Grid Forming inverters can and will be more effective and efficient than rotating masses as they’re optomised. Meanwhile they just need to work acceptably well for now. As stated, Standards will help.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 3:47 pm

The fact is that Grid Forming inverters can and will be more effective and efficient than rotating masses as they’re optomised.

You have not shown that you have the experience nor engineering training to make this this assertion.

You say “will be” more effective. Show us the design requirements that have been created for your so-called Grid Forming inverters.

rogercaiazza
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 5:06 pm

The discussion of inverters needs to keep this quote in mind:

“Going a short way down the “green” path is easy. Adding a bit more “renewables: isn’t that expensive and the gird is plenty robust for incremental hits. For most involved, it’s easier to go with that flow than to stand up for long-term concerns. But we are getting closer to the cliff as costs continue to increase and reliability problems become more prevalent. ”

The reliability concern is for a system with mostly asynchronous generators. Given the stakes shouldn’t we do a demonstration project first to prove that the proposed solutions will work.

Reply to  rogercaiazza
February 22, 2025 3:45 am

Given the stakes shouldn’t we do a demonstration project first to prove that the proposed solutions will work.

And how do you propose to do that?

Broken Hill was a good example of a practical case where a Grid Forming inverter performed well enough to stabilise the grid when the diesel generators supported by a Grid Following inverter couldn’t.

In terms of getting experience with Grid Forming inverter in a production environment, it doesn’t get much better than that.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 22, 2025 11:30 pm

No Tim you have got it wrong. Here is actually what happened https://wattclarity.com.au/articles/2024/10/28oct-brokenhillbess-longrange/
The battery only supported the diesel which was having stability problems from all the uncontrolled generation. Note the wording in one of the links “The grid-scale battery will provide additional power to supplement supply and reduce reliance on the large-scale backup generator,” it said in reference to the one diesel generator still in operation and which had suffered multiple trips as the result of demand and supply volatility, heat issues and a failed fuel pump.”

Reply to  Chris Morris
February 23, 2025 3:35 pm

The battery only supported the diesel which was having stability problems from all the uncontrolled generation. 

Can you please point out from your link “what actually happened” ?

The battery and generator didn’t produce a stable grid because the battery was originally configured as Grid Following. When the battery was configured as Grid Forming, it didn’t have the stability problems.

This comes from the lessons learned document

However, for the Broken Hill Battery Energy Storage System (BHBESS), which requires grid-forming capabilities with voltage and frequency references, an additional layer of control is necessary. This additional control layer is responsible for converting the active and reactive power commands from the PPC into usable voltage and frequency commands for the grid-forming inverter.

And the whole document (including part of my quote) is an exercise in justifying why AGL didn’t configure the battery to be Grid Forming once the regulation allowed it a year beforehand and didn’t respond more quickly in doing so when the original outage happened.

Tell me, what argument can you make for a rotating mass’ ability to deal with reactive power compared to how an inverter might be configured to deal with reactive power?

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 23, 2025 4:20 pm

And regarding Grid Following, I feel this needs clarification, again from the lessons learned document we have

It is important to note that in grid-following mode, the inverter does not have the virtual inertia and proportional integral (PI) controller control loops that are present in a grid-forming inverter

and then

In grid-following inverters, these control loops are not present, and their absence means that additional efforts are required to ensure proper tuning and coordination of the control parameters. This is necessary to maintain stable and reliable operation of the inverter in grid-following mode, especially during fault events.

And apparently in practice, for Grid Following mode, the battery simply didn’t help when the local grid was an island.

Erik Magnuson
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 5:24 pm

By the time you’ve added all of the components to an inverter so it can model a synchronous machine under transient conditions, the inverter is likely to be significantly less efficient. To get the equivalent current output under short circuit conditions will require at least double the number of devices (SCR, IGBT, SiCFET, etc) which will the increase switching losses.

The flip side is that large rotating machines are quite efficient, with largest coming in at 99%. They can take a lot of abuse and still stay connected. The same abuse on an inverter would either trip it or severely damage it.

Reply to  Erik Magnuson
February 21, 2025 6:37 am

Mr. T has no idea about an electrical grid. Neither the voltages nor the currents nor the reactances. He has no clue about balancing multiple power generation injection points to maintain a coherent system.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 21, 2025 10:44 pm

Mr. T has no idea about an electrical grid. Neither the voltages nor the currents nor the reactances. He has no clue about balancing multiple power generation injection points to maintain a coherent system.

Is that a fact. Your statement here screams “knowledge” and I clearly need to back down.

Reply to  Erik Magnuson
February 21, 2025 11:03 pm

By the time you’ve added all of the components to an inverter so it can model a synchronous machine under transient conditions, the inverter is likely to be significantly less efficient.

That remains to be seen. There are advantages to being able to control all aspects of the voltage and current that rotating generators simply dont have.

They can take a lot of abuse and still stay connected.

Or trip out. Or shear off.

The same abuse on an inverter would either trip it or severely damage it.

I think this is a very biased view. We dont even have any great experience with Grid Forming inverters. In principle they should trip. The same could be said for rotating masses but under some circumstances in the past they’ve simply torn apart and that’s “severe damage”

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 22, 2025 6:59 am

We dont even have any great experience with Grid Forming inverters.

You are being a troll. You previously said:

Broken Hill was a good example of a practical case where a Grid Forming inverter performed well enough to stabilise the grid when the diesel generators supported by a Grid Following inverter couldn’t.

The same could be said for rotating masses but under some circumstances in the past they’ve simply torn apart and that’s “severe damage”

Would you give an example of this. I suspect there had to be a control failure to allow this. Somehow I doubt a grid forming inverter would have solved the problem.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 22, 2025 11:11 am

Would you give an example of this. I suspect there had to be a control failure to allow this. Somehow I doubt a grid forming inverter would have solved the problem.

It’s been discussed here many times and recently too. You’ve been part of the discussions but apparently never read and understood the references.

In a nutshell the Broken Hill example is a region that lost its grid feed and became a grid island. The region had lots of solar energy and a battery to support it as well as diesel generators. One of the diesel generators was out of service and the other couldn’t manage to supply the region on its own. Peak demand caused the generator to trip out.

Initially the battery was configured to be grid following and it didn’t help to stabilise the grid.

When the battery was reconfigured to be grid forming the grid became stable.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 22, 2025 4:12 pm

So the statement you made that said:

We dont even have any great experience with Grid Forming inverters.

is not correct? You apparently now believe that Broken Hill is a sufficient demonstration such that massive deployment of grid forming inverters should be undertaken?

I noticed you ignored my request for support of:

The same could be said for rotating masses but under some circumstances in the past they’ve simply torn apart and that’s “severe damage”

Please give us a resource that describes where and what the failure was that caused “… rotating masses …” to be “…simply torn apart …”.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 22, 2025 5:35 pm

We dont even have any great experience with Grid Forming inverters.

Not having “great experience” in this context means not having practical experience with Grid Forming grids experiencing all sorts of instability and failure causing cases.

At Broken Hill, it was only working for a relatively short time before the main grid connection was re-established but it was long enough to show it worked, and it worked well.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 22, 2025 6:17 pm

Please give us a resource that describes where and what the failure was that caused “… rotating masses …” to be “…simply torn apart …”.

Here is a well documented test that was performed to demonstrate the failure. This was done in the context of a possible cyber attack whereby the rotating mass generators are intentionally forced into the grid, out of phase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_Generator_Test

And video

https://youtu.be/LM8kLaJ2NDU

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 22, 2025 7:38 pm

LOL. A test designed to destroy something! If you had an inkling of what actually failed you wouldn’t use this example. The unit that failed was the diesel engine, NOT the rotating mass of the generator where the electricity is made.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 22, 2025 8:33 pm

A test designed to destroy something!

That is the impact of the situation. This is the mode of failure. Adding the rotating mass into the grid when out of phase, destroys it.

The unit that failed was the diesel engine

The part that failed first was the shaft between the generator and the diesel engine. They’d set it up with a rubber coupler for testing. As per

During the initial steps of the attack, black rubber pieces were ejected as the rotating coupling was incrementally destroyed (as a result of the extremely abnormal torques induced by the out-of-synchronization alternator on the diesel engine’s crankshaft).[5] The rotating rubber coupling was soon destroyed outright, whereupon the diesel engine itself was then quickly ripped apart, with parts sent flying off.

Normal generators dont typically have forgiving couplers between the generator and the driving force. That’s the bit that is subject to shear force. As per

A real attack could have destroyed the unit much more quickly.[6] For example, a generator built without a rotating rubber coupling between the diesel engine and the alternator would experience the crankshaft-destroying abnormal forces in its diesel engine immediately

Instead it shears and destroys the mechanics of the driving force in this case.

Its all there in the documentation but its obvious you’re not interested in any of this. You’re only here to deflect the shortcomings of rotating masses and I dont know why.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 23, 2025 7:52 am

The part that failed first was the shaft between the generator and the diesel engine. They’d set it up with a rubber coupler for testing. As per

The shaft did not fail, the rubber components in the coupler failed. Although it isn’t stated, probably because of the severe flexing and not because of the “rotating mass”. That’s no different than motor mounts in an vehicle failing due to constant flexing. Think of repeated bending of a wire to “cut” it.

Normal generators dont typically have forgiving couplers between the generator and the driving force. That’s the bit that is subject to shear force. As per

You keep using the term “generator”. That is not a proper description. It is indicative of your lack of knowledge about the subject. You use the term in a colloquial fashion that identify a gen-set consisting of an engine and a alternator/generator.

A proper power plant has a prime mover machine such as a diesel engine or a steam driven turbine. The “generator” is the field/armature that converts mechanical energy to electrical energy.

The shaft connector used in this experiment has rubber isolators to minimize vibrations. It DID NOT FAIL because of being a “rotating mass” of any consequence. It failed due to repeated mechanical stress. The diesel engine probably failed due to mechanical stress on the crankshaft after the coupler failed. You’ll note that there is no discussion of the generator failing.

The upshot is that this experiment was designed to investigate a third party causing mechanical stress by distorting the operation of a power plant. This is NOT investigating the stresses applied to a power plant from grid that is having asynchronous operational conditions.

You should note that:

Although the main focus of the Aurora attack is the potential 15-cycle window of opportunity immediately after the target breaker is opened, the overriding issue is how fast the generator moves away from system synchronism.”[9]

This is in addition to noting that a typical installation has breakers that would trip in normal operation.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 23, 2025 9:10 am

Jim
” the overriding issue is how fast the generator moves away from system synchronism.” that is they are testing the governor droop and unit’s inertia. We do that test every ten years on all our units. It is called a drop load test. Open the circuit breaker, normally at half load, and measure what happens.- we haven’t broken a coupling yet, even from event driven full load generator trips. From that dropload data, the system operator can work out the grid response to underfrequency events and how much spinning reserve is needed. What synchronous machines do automatically and which invertor do a poor response.

Reply to  Chris Morris
February 23, 2025 12:14 pm

we haven’t broken a coupling yet, even from event driven full load generator trips.

Of course not. Your test didn’t include bringing the generator back, out of phase like the Auroratest. It’s designed to avoid that, as it should be.

But you’re wrong about inverters having poor response. Inverters can be designed to have any response at all. They could have exactly the same response as the rotating mass. But the rotating mass response isn’t the best response so they’re designing more optimal responses.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 23, 2025 7:01 pm

Tim As others have pointed out, your writings show that you have no real power station or HV grid experience at all. You make claims unsupported by facts. Assertions aren’t evidence. The actual grid tests and failure reports .show your statement are fallacies.

Reply to  Chris Morris
February 23, 2025 8:29 pm

You make claims unsupported by facts.

Such as?

Lets start with an easy one…are you denying my claim that when the Broken Hill battery was configured to be Grid Forming that the grid stabilised?

And this isn’t your argument but lets hear your point of view…would you deny my claim that rotating masses are subject to torques which can, under the right conditions (eg Aurora Test), destroy them? With the point being that inverters dont and cant have that issue.

And finally what argument can you make that a rotating mass will always perform better than an inverter. Or put another way, do you deny that an inverter (And I’m talking for a battery here, not a variable source like wind or solar) can completely control its voltage and current for each phase as needed?

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 24, 2025 10:30 am

Nobody is denying anything. Here is the crux of the issue. Show us a grid with no FF prime movers that have a reliability of 99.5%. Until you can do that, you have no evidence to support your assertions.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 24, 2025 11:22 am

So Broken Hill doesn’t convince you it’s possible? What would it take to convince you besides the obvious….a grid that has no fossil fuel generators?

All I can say is that there are lots of countries investing billions of dollars on infrastructure for grids with reducing physical inertia. If it genuinely wasn’t possible to achieve then we wouldn’t be doing it.

It’s a transition and we’re still in the early stages of it now so that means there is both fossil fuel generation and renewables.

We’ll probably have rotating mass generation as part of the grid forever but it is reducing and inverters are increasing in many grids and they’re all still running.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 23, 2025 12:05 pm

The shaft connector used in this experiment has rubber isolators to minimize vibrations. It DID NOT FAIL because of being a “rotating mass”

It’s the shear force that caused the failure in the shaft and its the mass of the system and its inertia that is the problem.

Inverters don’t have mass and don’t experience shear forces.

But you go along believing what you want.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 23, 2025 2:44 pm

I will because I spent 4 1/2 years learning about the engineering and protections of power plants.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
February 23, 2025 2:47 pm

I will because I spent 4 1/2 years learning about the engineering and protections of power plants.

But still cant accept simple facts which says more about you than anything you claim to know.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 23, 2025 7:02 pm

Do you know what happens when you do a mal-sync – That was rhetorical as it is obvious you don’t.

Reply to  Chris Morris
February 23, 2025 8:15 pm

Please give us a description of a mal-sync.

Bryan A
February 19, 2025 7:58 pm

Let’s see if those “Narrative” bullet points can be fixed to reflect reality shall we?

  1. Renewable Energy can meet the electric demand of the United States and World
  2. Renewable Energy is economic
  3. Renewable Energy sources can provide reliable electric service to consumers and support the grid
  4. Renewable energy sources are inexhaustible and widely available
  5. Clean Energy resources don’t produce carbon and are environmentally neutral
  6. Renewable Energy Costs are decreasing over time
  7. It will become easier to add renewables as we become more familiar with the technologies
  8. The intermittency problems associated with wind and solar can be addressed through batteries.
  9. Inverter based generation from wind, solar and batteries can be made to perform like conventional rotating generator technology
  10. Battery improvements will enable the green transition
  11. We are at a tipping point for renewables
  12. Wind, Solar, and Battery technologies collectively contribute to a cleaner environment, economic growth, energy security, and a sustainable future
  13. The world is facing severe consequences from increased CO2 emissions.
  14. There will be an inevitable and necessary transition to clean economic renewables
  15. Green Energy will allow independence from world energy markets
  16. The clean grid will facilitate clean buses, trucks, tanks, planes
  17. The third world will bypass fossil fuels and promote global equity
  18. Replacing fossil fuels with green energy will have huge health benefits
  19. It’s all about Urgency and Action

Lets make them more truthful

  1. Renewable Energy can’t meet the electric demand of the United States or World without expensive over build and likely not even then…if the wind isn’t blowing no amount of over build will deliver power.
  2. Renewable Energy is an economic vacuum sucking government coffers.
  3. Renewable Energy sources can’t provide reliable electric service to consumers and support the grid without expensive redundancies, over build, batteries and extensive transmission build out with increased grid capacity.
  4. Renewable energy sources are inexhaustible and widely available though are extremely low density and ever unreliable when Peak Usage Demands. No solar at night anywhere and no wind when a blocking high builds in.
  5. Clean Energy resources don’t produce carbon and are environmentally neutral so long as you discount the massive amount of increased mining, refining, manufacturing and transporting, along with infrastructure improvements and Transmission Lines needed and the “Carbon” associated with all that unnecessary “make work”.
  6. Renewable Energy Costs are decreasing over time as is their cost effectiveness since they must be constantly replaced from storm damage or short lifespans.
  7. It will become easier to add renewables as we become more familiar with the technologies though the preferred ” A-B” locations will be soon all taken and the less productive “C-D-E” locations will provide significantly less output for the same Nameplate value.
  8. The intermittency problems associated with wind and solar can be addressed through batteries which are prohibitively expensive and prone to sudden and violent explosive outbursts of toxic fumes, toxic smoke and 2500° flames with over 80% of the materials requiring shipping across oceans for processing in less than friendly nations.
  9. Inverter based generation from wind, solar and batteries can be made to perform like conventional rotating generator technology about 25% of the time for Solar and about 40% of the year for Wind
  10. Battery improvements will enable the green transition though those battery breakthroughs have yet to be invented… SOOO…it’s like depending on Unicorn Flatus
  11. We are at a tripping point for renewables where society toll trip with further introduction
  12. Wind, Solar, and Battery technologies collectively contribute to a cleaner environment, economic growth, energy security, and a sustainable future…with part time short lived jobs providing part time short lived energy for a part time short lived unsustainable future
  13. The world is facing severe consequences from increased CO2 emissions like Increased Food Crop production, increased Biosphere Greening andOasification of desert lands
  14. There will be an inevitable and necessary transition to clean economic renewables unless Government forcing can be eliminated. Capitalism would never adopt them as they aren’t the current “Best Option”
  15. Green Energy will allow independence from world energy markets as it eliminates energy usage globally
  16. The clean grid will facilitate clean buses, trucks, tanks, planes which don’t currently exist and would only take you a couple hundred miles between 24-48 hour charging layovers if they did…highly impractical
  17. The third world will bypass fossil fuels and promote global equity. Uh huh, yeah riiight
  18. Replacing fossil fuels with green energy will have huge health benefits like the elimination of pharmaceuticals and surgeries AND emergency vehicles that run out of power before they make it to the trouble site
  19. It’s all about
Bryan A
Reply to  Bryan A
February 19, 2025 7:59 pm

19 It’s all about separating you from as much of your money as possible as they take control over every aspect of your life

John Hultquist
Reply to  Bryan A
February 19, 2025 8:34 pm

Well done. It would be difficult to format these into a 2-column presentation but that would be even better.
The original post is way-too-long. I don’t know anyone that would read the entire piece, especially those who might benefit from doing so.

Reply to  Bryan A
February 19, 2025 11:04 pm

I’d add a point 20.

20. Fossil Fuels will run out one day and before their production decreases, we need to be replacing them with something else. The choices are basically renewables or nuclear.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 1:23 am

How about: adjusting and adapting over time? There is the economic issue, the demographic one, the financial one the geo political one.
Nobody can foresee the future in 20-50 years time. Hard enough the next 5.
Nobody has THE answer. Those proposing it are by default wrong. Yet, we seem to be in a phase transition.Collapse, recovery ad infinitum. Answer: diversity and flexibility. Banking on ‘renewables’ is tried, tested…and failed in wide scale use. Nuclear seems the logical path to the forseeable future. Not the panacea/ the solution, but a tried and tested and succesful application.

Reply to  ballynally
February 20, 2025 4:11 am

How about: adjusting and adapting over time? 

That’s what we’re doing. We’re doing it while we still have plenty of energy so that nobody has to go without and die. Personally I think we could slow down a little but we still need to be progressing.

Bryan A
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 6:48 am

Sorry Tim. We aren’t adapting over time. We’re having part time available energy produced by ancient technology forced upon us by government fiat

Reply to  Bryan A
February 20, 2025 11:51 am

Yes. Because it’s more expensive and less reliable. The market isn’t going to do it by itself without incentive.

But we’re doing it because we can see a future where we’ll wish we did it but it’d be too late and it’d be one giant unfixable energy crisis which can’t end well.

Bryan A
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 3:58 pm

Then it isn’t innovation driven, its government mandate and every time the government steps in it usually costs 10 times more and lasts 1/4 as long. Much like Solar lasts 1/4 as long as Gas and 1/5 as long as nuclear and as such costs at least 5 times more from constant replacement

Reply to  Bryan A
February 22, 2025 11:22 am

Then it isn’t innovation driven, its government mandate 

Pretty much.

But there are two ways that can happen.

Either the government can make the choices, fund them and have someone build them as per somewhere like China…or can allow the market to choose the strategy and create incentives to make it possible.

Fortunately we mostly do the latter which is ought to get the best outcome.

Bryan A
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
February 20, 2025 6:46 am

The choices are basically Renewables or Nuclear.
Hmmm, obviously you really mean…
The choices are Ridiculously Intermittent and expensive or Affordable, Reliable and Available

Reply to  Bryan A
February 20, 2025 11:54 am

Well get out there and build one. Actually we’ll need many thousands of them globally, so we’d better start soon.

Ronald Stein
Reply to  Bryan A
February 20, 2025 7:15 am

Shockingly, virtually all those that support wind turbines, solar panels and EV’s for transportation, are the same ones against the open pit mining required to extract all the exotic minerals and metals to go “green”, and the same ones against the fossil fuels that are the basis of most of the parts and components of renewables and EV vehicles that represent the “green” movement. 

observa
February 19, 2025 9:09 pm

Bjorn puts it succinctly-
The climate crisis is being fixed ‘stupidly’

This is what the greening of steel looks like particularly around Federal election time-
Prime Minister says $2.4 billion package for Whyalla steelworks is an ‘investment in the nation’

You can see Whyalla on the Gulf in the Federal electorate of Grey representing largely lizards and snakes-
The Grey Electorate – Rowan Ramsey MP

observa
February 19, 2025 9:34 pm

Unfortunately unless the voters do a Trump on Labor with a baseball bat we’ll be stuck with Labor and the Greens as bosom buddies-
Greens’ $7.2bn welfare pledge as vote looms

Senator Allman-Payne said the current cost of living pressures were “just too great to make tertiary study an option” for many.

Good as the last thing we need is more whining lefty burger flippers and baristas. Had the good fortune to be in the way of a lady ignoring a stop sign on Jan 21 at a suburban intersection and ringing around the crash repairers they can’t start til May or June at best which gives you an idea where our priorities should lie. Not to worry AI or Google will fix it in conjunction with the fickles and I get a free hire car anyway.

Bob
February 19, 2025 9:35 pm

A lot of information here. A couple observations. You spend some time advising us that this post does not include technical or scientific justifications for the things you have said. Rather you rely on links that help justify what you have said. While all of that is important for many of us it isn’t. It is critical to have the justifications readily available so you can back up what you say there is another consideration. Mountains of evidence have been presented here at WUWT and it is useful for many at this site. But our mission should be to inform the average guy. To do that we must be direct, clear, brief and communicate in language and ideas that any high school student can easily understand. Don’t apologize that this may not be absolutely complete. Take this information and make it brief and understandable by a high school student, preferably a freshman. If the average guy understood a fraction of what you have said here they wouldn’t stand for this renewable nonsense. Remember the other side got where they are with bumper sticker slogans.

Here is what needs to be communicated.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, CO2 is critical for life on earth, man emits CO2 into the atmosphere, CO2 is very limited in it’s effectiveness to warm the planet compared to water vapor, CO2 can’t cause catastrophic global warming.

We humans need and deserve affordable, reliable, safe and plentiful energy for our everyday lives. We depend on a robust grid to insure we get that power. Wind, solar and storage can’t deliver on any of those counts and worse yet is a danger to the grid. If not for huge government subsidies, tax preferences and mandates we wouldn’t even be talking about them because they aren’t suited for that purpose.

Last in the simplest possible language the difference between rotating power and inverter must be explained and why rotating power works on the grid and inverter doesn’t.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Bob
February 19, 2025 11:24 pm

CO2 is a greenhouse gas.”

Really? I hope you are not implying that adding CO2 to air changes the temperature. What do you mean by “greenhouse gas”? Do you mean a gas which is introduced into commercial greenhouses to increase yield?

“CO2 is a greenhouse gas” is just meaningless word salad without some explanation.

Bob
Reply to  Michael Flynn
February 20, 2025 12:48 pm

Are you saying it is not a greenhouse gas?

observa
Reply to  Bob
February 19, 2025 11:24 pm

Here is what needs to be communicated.

Don’t worry Trump and Co have got the elites worried everywhere that they’re losing the narrative-
‘Lack of spine’: France under fire for considering ‘Trump-inspired’ U-turn on environmental rules
They can’t continue to lie about the cost of trying to change the weather and it was always their dumb prescriptions that would bring them undone.

Reply to  Bob
February 20, 2025 10:54 am

I’m an average guy and I understood every word and if I didn’t I would look it up.

February 19, 2025 11:56 pm

It’s all about Urgency and Action

The sure sign of all scams. Hurry, don’t wait.

UK-Weather Lass
February 20, 2025 12:57 am

Policy makers can always rig ‘the future’ to accommodate personal gain and resist personal loss if they believe they know how the whole of a thing we call life behaves.

But,fortunately for all species everywhere, ‘the future’ has a mind of its own. We may often close guess it but there is always the angle that escapes, evades or misleads us.

And that is what grabs our attention most of all and keeps us interested (otherwise known as the unknown).

February 20, 2025 1:06 am

It was easier/ less costly f politicians to bank on intention using emotion and virtue signalling than to present careful equations in a complex matter.
But since the drawbacks of going the ‘renewable’ way are becoming clearer and clearer opposing politicians use that same emotional response to fight against it. I doubt if any of them truelly understand the system as a whole.
Anyway, the pendulum swings. On all fronts. It is a matter of time. The UK seems the worst of the lot.

February 20, 2025 1:31 am

Wonderful summation. Meanwhile, nature is doing its bit. Methane has a very short half life and carbon dioxide, at about 120 years, is scrubbing the great coal phase of western industrial expansion away as we speak. We may be at a natural high for CO2 numbers (reflecting back to find a date in industrial history which produced the greatest outpouring as year one of the start of the diminution to be experienced in our times) and looking to a catastrophic decline in CO2 with all that means for nature.

Bruce Cobb
February 20, 2025 8:34 am

The lies about Ruinables have probably cost economies worldwide $trillions, lowering living standards, and especially for those in poorer countries, meant unnecessary hardship, suffering, and death.