The DEFR Follies — Cost Of Hydrogen Storage

From the MANHATTAN CONTRARIAN

Francis Menton

Here in New York we have our own unique and special acronym for how we think we are going to make our future emissions-free electrical grid work with predominantly wind and solar generation. The acronym is DEFR — the “Dispatchable Emissions-Free Resource.” When the sun goes down and the wind stops blowing in the dead of winter, we will crank up the DEFR to keep us all warm and cozy. There will of course be zero carbon emissions, because by definition the DEFR is “emissions-free.”

Unfortunately nobody is quite sure what this DEFR might be. There are only a few options. Nuclear could work, but in New York it is completely blocked by regulatory obstruction and the certainty of decades of litigation. Batteries are wildly too expensive and physically not up to the job. That leaves many green energy advocates grasping at hydrogen as the last remaining option. Granted, we don’t yet have any meaningful production of hydrogen from carbon-free sources. But it seems so simple: just use wind and solar generators to run electrolyzers to make hydrogen from water; then store the hydrogen in some big caverns, and burn it when you need it. No carbon is involved. Problem solved!

I’ve had a few posts over the past couple of years commenting on some of the many issues that make this “green” hydrogen fantasy infeasible. This post from June 2022 noted that the cost of making hydrogen from water is unlikely ever to fall below, or even close to, the cost of getting new natural gas out of the ground; this post from August 2024 discussed numerous other problems with hydrogen, like its lower energy density compared to natural gas, and the prospective need for a whole new infrastructure of pipelines, power plants, delivery trucks and consumer appliances.

Now comes along a new study focusing on a different piece of the costs of using hydrogen as a main energy source for the economy. The issue is the cost of storing the hydrogen from the time of its production until it is needed for use. The new study appeared in the scientific journal Joule on October 8 with the title “Carbon abatement costs of green hydrogen across end-use sectors.” (The link goes just to a lengthy introduction and abstract. You’ll need to pay $35 to get the whole article, but the introduction at the link tells you what you need to know.)

Perhaps most significant about this new study is the authors. They are Roxana Shafiee and Daniel Schrag, both of whom work at Harvard and have impeccable climate cult credentials, including multiple appointments at various Harvard sub-schools and institutes (Harvard University Center for the Environment, Harvard Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Harvard Paulson School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, Harvard Kennedy School Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs — you get the idea). These are not people who can be dismissed as “climate deniers.”

Shafiee and Schrag correctly recognize that the cost of producing hydrogen from water is just a piece, and possibly a small piece, of the cost of getting useful hydrogen to a consumer at point of use. They criticize green hydrogen enthusiasts for paying insufficient attention to other costs, and particularly to the costs of “storage and distribution”:

Hydrogen generated via electrolysis using renewable energy (green hydrogen) has gained prominence as a potential strategy in decarbonizing hard-to-abate sectors of the economy, in which electrification is technically challenging or prohibitively expensive. Many governments have set policy targets and, in some cases, financial incentives for green hydrogen production, with the expectation that production costs will fall rapidly in the coming decades, providing low-cost carbon abatement opportunities across many sectors. Yet, many recent analyses do not consider the storage and distribution costs of delivering green hydrogen to different sectors or how these costs may vary across end uses.

So Shafiee and Schrag set out to correct those deficiencies. To their credit, S&S have figured out that the costs of distribution and storage infrastructure are highly dependent on how intensely that infrastructure is used. (As far as I can determine, not one of the thousands of people in the vast New York energy regulatory bureaucracies has yet figured out this simple principle.) The more often the storage gets cycled, the lower the charge for each unit of energy stored and then used. S&S note that some sectors, particularly industries like petrochemicals and steel, can cycle hydrogen storage many times per month, thus driving down costs. Unfortunately, the same does not apply to the power sector:

Although low costs of hydrogen storage and distribution (<$1/kgH2) are possible through economies of scale, this requires high utilization of storage and distribution infrastructure, which is not applicable to all end-use sectors. If storage and distribution infrastructure is used at a low rate, costs increase significantly. Salt cavern storage costs increase from less than $0.50/kgH2 to $6/kgH2, on average, if stores are cycled fewer than 10 times per year, for example, in the context of seasonal changes in demand (e.g., heating or electricity generation).

That’s right: hydrogen produced and stored for purposes of home heating only gets cycled once per year at most. To understand the significance of the costs cited, recall that the energy-equivalence conversion factor from $/kgH2 to $/MMBTU (the units in which natural gas prices are customarily quoted) is 8. $6/kgH2 converts to $48/MMBTU. And that’s just for the intra-year storage. Meanwhile, the current price for Henry Hub natural gas is $3.06/MMBTU, and most of it does not need to be stored for any significant period because it gets produced roughly as needed to meet demand.

So kudos to S&S for figuring out that cost of storage for hydrogen is a big and unrecognized issue. But unfortunately, they only go as far as considering intra-year storage. There is also a huge issue of multi-year storage if green hydrogen is to become the backup for a grid powered mostly by wind and sun. In a post on September 28, 2023, I covered a Report then just out from Britain’s Royal Society dealing with issues of long-term energy storage to back up wind and solar generators. The Royal Society had collected weather data for Britain for some 37 years, which had revealed that there are worst-case wind and sun “droughts,” comparable to rain droughts, that may occur only once every 20 years or more. A storage solution to back up wind and solar electricity generation without fossil fuel back-up needs to cover these worst-case droughts.

The Royal Society Report includes the following graph of potentially needed withdrawals from storage to cover these worst case droughts:

The graph shows that of the storage needed for full back-up over the 37 year period of data, fully half would only have been called on twice, and about a quarter would only have been called on once. Perhaps S&S should go back to their laptops to figure out how much salt cavern storage costs per unit of energy stored when it only gets called on once in 37 years. If storage that gets cycled once per year costs $6/kgH2, does storage that gets cycled once per 37 years cost $222/kgH2? The blended cost — between the storage that gets cycled once per year and the rarely-used part that gets cycled only once every 10 or 20 or even 37 years — would look to be around $100/kgH2, equivalent to $800/MMBTU of natural gas. That’s more than 250 times the current price of natural gas, and of course is only the cost of storage. The cost of actually producing the hydrogen would be additional.

I understand that there are people moving forward on setting up some of this hydrogen infrastructure, funded with government subsidies. It’s almost impossible to imagine how much subsidies it would take to make such a system fully functional. It will never happen.

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Scissor
October 20, 2024 6:14 pm

Hydrogen is destined to become a booming business.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Scissor
October 20, 2024 6:30 pm

Along with the EV business.

Reply to  Dave Fair
October 21, 2024 12:26 am

What do you mean? EVs are selling like a house on fire! 😂

SteveZ56
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
October 21, 2024 12:25 pm

Sometimes their batteries do set a house on fire…

Reply to  Scissor
October 21, 2024 12:25 am

I see what you did there 😁

SteveZ56
Reply to  Scissor
October 21, 2024 12:24 pm

It goes boom like the Hindenberg!

Reply to  SteveZ56
October 22, 2024 6:07 am

Which didn’t go boom

Bob
October 20, 2024 6:29 pm

Wind and solar are not a substitute for fossil fuel and nuclear, it is time to move on.

October 20, 2024 6:32 pm

“It will never happen.”
Well said.
The “climate action” proponents, even some academic engineering folks, cannot grasp how this conclusion can be so quickly formed.
But the physically infeasible nature of the DEFR requirements being discussed for NY is obvious to those experienced in industry. Nuclear would work, but better to just snap out of the fixation against emissions of CO2. Go with natural gas fired CCGT’s and ditch the wind, solar, and batteries for grid supply.
But..but… the CLIMATE! We need to be leaders!!
No, we need an ample supply of reliable, affordable, electricity for NY. The climate will be fine.

malrob
October 20, 2024 7:09 pm

The easiest way solve the horrendous problems of hydrogen storage and distribution is to mix a bit of carbon with it. 4:1 seems to work quite well.

Rod Evans
Reply to  malrob
October 21, 2024 12:03 am

Quite and at that ratio all the existing pipelines and domestic appliances needed to burn/use the carbonised hydrogen work perfectly well too…..

Richard Greene
Reply to  malrob
October 21, 2024 5:21 am

According to current research, adding more than a small percentage of hydrogen (generally considered to be around 5-20%) to natural gas pipelines can potentially damage them due to hydrogen embrittlement, causing increased leak risk and potential pipeline failure, especially if the pipeline has pre-existing flaws or is made of lower quality steel; exceeding this range without significant pipeline modifications is considered risky and could lead to significant damage.\\

ZERO WOULD BE RISK FREE.

Ex-KaliforniaKook
Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 10:19 am

Especially if we apply the LNT approach that the EPA uses to stop nukular power generation.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 11:09 am

Methane Richard, is CH4. One carbon atom and 4 hydrogen atoms. Methane does not embrittle steel pipelines.

Sorry you didn’t get it the first time.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 12:46 pm

Oh look RG doesn’t understand basic chemistry. No surprise there.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 22, 2024 6:11 am

Having 50% hydrogen wasn’t a problem for about 100 years in the UK, it was converting to natural gas that was the problem.

mleskovarsocalrrcom
October 20, 2024 7:29 pm

Hydrogen is just another dog whistle for the alarmists. Like all their other schemes the only thing that meets their criteria is doing away with fossil fuels. Useful idiots willing to follow anything that promises excluding fossil fuels but fail to take into the equation the fossil fuels it would take to gain their nirvana and the cost.

larryPTL
October 20, 2024 7:35 pm

Everyone is missing the “BIG” picture. CO2 only blocks certain frequencies of Infra-red radiation, and by the time it reaches 400ppm, it has blocked all of those frequencies that will be blocked. Going above 400ppm will not increase global warming in the slightest.

We are currently at 412ppm and climbing.

Reply to  larryPTL
October 20, 2024 8:46 pm

NASA reports for July that the CO2 concentration at the MLO in Hawaii is 426 ppmv for dry air. One cubic meter of this air has only 0.836 g of CO2 and has a mass of 1.29 kg at STP. This small amount of CO2 can heat up a large amount of air by only
a very small amount.

For a sunny day at 70 deg. F and with a RH of 70%, the concentration of H2O is 14,780 ppmv. One cubic meter of this air has 14.3 g of water and a mass of 1.2 kg.
In this air there is 0.78 g of CO2. To the first approximation, H2O is about 95% of the
greenhouse effect.

During the day H20 and CO2 absorb incoming IR, which results in the warming of the air. You feel this incoming IR as the warmth of the sun. As the surface warms up, H2O and CO2 start absorbing IR light emanating from the surface.

You are right about the absorption bands of CO2 being saturated. This also applies to
H2O.

The claim by IPCC since 1988 that CO2 causes global warming is a lie.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Harold Pierce
October 20, 2024 11:35 pm

Based on your climate science nonsense, you are a one man reign of error.

Water vapor is NOT 95% of the greenhouse effect as you falsely claim. According to current research, clouds contribute roughly 25% of the greenhouse effect, with water vapor being the dominant contributor at around 50% and carbon dioxide making up around 20% of the total greenhouse effect.

During the day H20 and CO2 DO NOT absorb incoming IR, so DO NOT result in the warming of the air, as you falsely claimed.

CO2 NEVER saturates, as you falsely claimed

The claim by IPCC since 1988 that CO2 causes global warming is the truth.

My claim that you are a climate science fool is also the truth

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 2:58 am

During the day H20 and CO2 DO NOT absorb incoming IR

Remarkable. How does the CO2 and H2O magically stop absorbing just because it’s daytime? An effect new to science.

Richard Greene
Reply to  It doesnot add up
October 21, 2024 3:40 am

CO2 and water vapor bock upwellimg longwave radiation of Earth cooling itself.

According to NASA, around 23% of incoming solar energy is absorbed by water vapor in the atmosphere, meaning that while water vapor doesn’t directly “reflect” sunlight back into space, it absorbs a significant portion of the sun’s energy within the atmosphere, contributing to the overall energy balance of the Earth system. While water vapor itself doesn’t significantly block direct sunlight from reaching Earth, it does play a major role in trapping heat radiated back from the Earth’s surface

CO2 is invisible to incoming sunlight
Carbon dioxide is considered “invisible” to incoming sunlight, meaning it allows most of the visible light from the sun to pass through without interacting with it directly

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 4:36 am

Please go and learn the proper physics. Wijngaarden and Happer provide some good detail. Molecules are quite indifferent to the direction of impinging photons. Absorption depends only on the relevant quantum state being vacated when the photon collides. The probability of thermalisation ahead of emission depends on the local atmospheric conditions (pressure, temperature, local molar composition). Emission is in a random direction. You have to add up all these effects across the atmosphere layer by layer, taking account of surface emissions and absorption, and incoming radiation at the ToA.

Richard Greene
Reply to  It doesnot add up
October 21, 2024 5:28 am

Please go and learn the proper physics. Wijngaarden and Happer

I have read studies by those authors an understand them. You read but don’t understand.

Both scientists say CO2 is a weak greenhouse gas as I have been saying for the past 28 years. Their estimates of the long term effects of CO2 emissions are in the low end of the current range. They will very likely be wrong since no one knows the exact effect of CO2 x 2 … but no one ever says “We don’t know”

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 6:34 am

I clearly understand the physics better than you do. And so do they. I called you out for a plainly wrong claim. Please review that. I quoted your words. They were wrong. The whole way you wrote the issue up is the kind of nonsense taught in schools about greenhouse effects. It’s wrong. Climate scientists have to unlearn this tosh and learn the proper physics if they are to make any kind of contribution. Otherwise they are propagandists, not scientists.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 11:16 am

One must truly be amazed that plant stomata have already evolved to absorb atmospheric CO2 X 4 as a function of photosynthesis and that while doing so, the Earth did not erupt in a ball of fire.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 12:54 pm

oh dear.. dickie-boi has the scientific understanding of a 5 year old.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 3:55 am

“The claim by IPCC since 1988 that CO2 causes global warming is the truth.”

Perhaps SOME of the warming- not all of it as you just claimed. And I doubt the IPCC in ’88 said what you think it said. If so, please quote it.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 21, 2024 5:31 am

No one knows how much of the warming since 1975 was caused by CO2 but most of the warming was in the colder upper half of the Northern Hemisphere, mainly during the six coldest months pf the year, and mainly at night. All three are symptoms of greenhouse warming, rather than solar warming.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 6:41 am

Some logic to that- but it’s not proof. There are other theories- which may also not be convincing- so don’t bet all your millions on your perspective.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 12:59 pm

What load of science free blather ! Symptoms of Urban warming.

Have you found any empirical evidence that CO2 caused ANY of the warming…

You have never had any before now… a blank, empty blahhhh…

There is no evidence of any CO2 warming in the UAH data… you have shown that many times.

You are the one constantly saying that “science requires evidence”.. yet you remain totally evidence free.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 21, 2024 5:37 am

The IPCC was set up to collect evidence that global warming was manmade and dangerous.

They started with that conclusions and have supported it for 36 years, by ignoring contradictory data and dismissing natural causes of climate change as “noise” in 1995 (although they believed that in 1988 but pretended to study the subject until 1988 to appear fair)

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 6:45 am

They also ignore that warming isn’t a bad thing for many people and regions. It’s certainly not an “emergency” which is the dogma in some regions, like Wokeachusetts. Despite warming in this state- and more rain- the ecology is doing great- gardens, flower beds, lawns and the forests have had a great year even if I had to run 3 air conditioners to stay comfortable. Is it about the planet or human comfort? The planet doesn’t care much for human comfort. Some people are more comfortable with warming and some are less. So what. We’re not gonna spend several hundred trillion dollars to try to stop it.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 5:03 am

The claim by IPCC since 1988 that CO2 causes global warming is the truth.

I’d like to see a quote or reference for that since the IPCC was only set up in 1988 to “provide policymakers with regular scientific assessments on the current state of knowledge about climate change” (quote from IPCC website).

If they knew “the Truth” in 1988 why are they still in existance?

Reply to  Phil R
October 21, 2024 12:37 pm

There are 432 employees at headquarters of the IPCC in Switzerland, who are living off the Global Warming Gravy Train.
On winter weekends, they all go to St. Moritz for fun and relaxation in the snow.

We really don’t need the IPCC, and it should be disbanded.

GeorgeInSanDiego
Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 8:32 am

Using the figures cited in the conclusions of the Coe, Fabinski, Wiegleb paper published in 2021; I calculate that 89% of the greenhouse effect comes from water vapor, 10% comes from carbon dioxide, and 1% comes from all of the other greenhouse gases combined.
The impact of CO2, H2O, and other greenhouse gases on equilibrium Earth temperatures; International Journal of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences; Volume 5, Number 2

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 12:52 pm

More self-opinionated anti-science gibberish from RG.

Still no empirical scientific evidence of any warming by atmospheric CO2.

Still stuck with junior high level AGW-mantra.

Still an evidence-free ditz !

Richard Greene
Reply to  larryPTL
October 20, 2024 11:25 pm

CO2 never saturates
That’s what the logarithmic effect means.
You are wrong and citing a conservative myth. CO2 is a weak greenhouse gas above the current 420 ppm. It does not stop being a greenhouse gas at any specific concentration

Honest Climate Science and Energy: tThe Greenhouse Effect: The CO2 is Saturated Myth

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 2:15 am

ATTN: RG Check out this IR absorption spectrum of Philadelphia city air from 400 to 4,000 wavenumbers. This Fig. 7 was prepared by sherro01 and was taken from “Climate Science Reexamined by Joel M. Kauffman. Integration of the spectrum determined that H20 absorbed 92% of the IR light and CO2 only 8%. This is close to the “first approximation” value. Since air sample was city air, it is quite likely that the concentration of CO2 was higher than that of a remote location such as rural site. In 1999 the concentration of CO2 was about 367 ppmv at the MLO. One cubic meter of this air contained 19.1 g of H20.

About 48% of sunlight is IR light (Ref: Essentials of Meteorology by C. D. Ahrens, p.34, Fig.2.8.). Thus, H2O and CO2 could absorb most of this
light because the optical path length is large.

The IPCC is a political organization formed by the UNEP and the
WMO in 1988 with these two premises (1) that the release of greenhouse gases cause global warming and (2) activities of humans cause global warming. The IPCC does no research. Use Google and obtain the budgets for the UNFCCC, the UN COP, and the IPCC.

You should go to “Science of Climate Change” Vol 4 (1) and read the review by Roy Clark. He shows that theory about the greenhouse effect is based on
several erroneous assumptions and incorrect calculation methodology.

Look what all this greenhouse and climate change nonsense has done to the UK, which just shut down the last thermal power plant before winter.

kaufman
Richard Greene
Reply to  Harold Pierce
October 21, 2024 3:49 am

The greenhouse effect is real

Manmade CO2 adds to the greenhouse effect

The actual warming from CO2 is small and beneficial — warmer winters are the main symptom

The IPCC is political, not scientific

Wild guesses of the climate in 100 years are just climate astrology, and are being used to promote more powerful governments.

These are the facts that are supported by the one dozen or more articles I recommend daily at my climate and energy blog, with over 915,000 page views so far.

I avoid junk science and wild guess climate predictions by both leftists and conservatives

I celebrate more CO2 in the air and would prefer a lot more CO2, as the Michigan winters get milder with much less snow. I hope someday our climate will be just like San Diego.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 1:05 pm

roflmao.

Mindless rhetoric.. zero counter to the actual science

Still waiting for empirical scientific evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.

You still have NONE.

Just a puerile and petty call to consensus and your own self-opinionated blog of ignorance.

Its quite hilarious watch your petty ego at work.

mikewaite
Reply to  Richard Greene
October 22, 2024 2:13 am

Richard
I don’t understand why you are so vigorously down voted . If the above encapsulates your beliefs then i suspect that they represent the views of the majority of people who are not Net Zero fanatics. Yes CO2 has some effect but it is not devastating and mortality studies have shown that it is a beneficial effect in virtually every climat zone. Its effect does not justify the vast sums spent on countering that effect or the destruction of the environment of massive wind and solar farms. .

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 3:51 am

I forgot to mention that 71% of the earth’s surface is covered with water and that the wind is a major force that transports enormous amounts water into the air, for example by the hurricanes. The wind is blowing out the oceans 24/7.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Harold Pierce
October 21, 2024 5:41 am

Water vapor in the air long term is determine by the temperature of the air. Any addition of water vapor in the air, by irrigation or by a volcano, will leave the troposphere as rain or snow in an average of nine days.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 6:50 am

Clickbait alert.

Reply to  karlomonte
October 21, 2024 1:05 pm

More like a scientific non-entity alter. !

SteveZ56
Reply to  larryPTL
October 21, 2024 1:05 pm

I have done some detailed calculations of the additional IR radiation absorbed by increasing CO2 concentrations. The results depend on the assumed ground temperature and relative humidity, but over the range studied (ground temperature between 0 C and 35 C; relative humidity 10% to 90%), increasing the CO2 concentration only increases the air temperature at less than 10 meters above the ground, and actually results in a slight decrease in temperature at higher altitudes.

According to this model, called a Humid Air InfraRed Absorption model (HAIRAM), doubling the CO2 concentration from 424 ppm (near the current value) to a hypothetical 848 ppm would result in a global average surface temperature increase of about 0.46 C, which is much less than the “equilibrium climate sensitivity” claimed by the IPCC. The temperature rise due to doubling CO2 varies according to initial ground temperature and humidity, with the maximum values in cold, dry conditions, and minimum values in warm, humid conditions.

This model predicts a temperature rise of less than 0.3 C in the tropics, and from 0.5 to 1.0 C at high latitudes, with the highest values in the winter, and much lower values in summer.

According to GISS, global average surface temperatures have increased by about 0.64 C since 1976, while this radiation model would have predicted only about 0.12 C due to the increase in CO2 concentration alone.

This result shows that only about 18% of the warming observed between 1976 and the present is due to increased IR absorption by CO2. The rest is due either to natural forces beyond human control, or to the urban heat island effect of cities being built near weather stations which were formerly located in rural areas.

Do we really need to stop burning fossil fuels to avoid a future temperature increase of only 0.46 C?

Probably not, because the future CO2 concentration will probably never reach 848 ppm. An analysis of the global human CO2 emissions and the concentrations at Mauna Loa from 1959 through 2023 shows that the natural CO2 removal rate (by photosynthesis, etc.) increases with concentration at a rate of about 0.14 Gt/yr/ppm.

If human CO2 emissions held constant at their 2022 value of 37.2 Gt/yr, the CO2 removal rate will catch up to the human emission rate, and the CO2 concentration in the air would level off at about 550 ppm, somewhere around AD 2200. According to the HAIRAM model, this would result in a future temperature increase of about 0.17 C–not much to worry about!

Reply to  SteveZ56
October 21, 2024 3:29 pm

What is the reference paper for the HAIRAM model and the posted results?

NASA reports that recently there has been an notable increase in green vegetation even in some desert. Could this result in an increased rate of CO2 removal? This would be an example of positive feedback.

ferdberple
October 20, 2024 8:37 pm

At one time I naively believed economic impossibility could stop the madness. Alas, it simply means bigger subsidies.

Richard Greene
Reply to  ferdberple
October 20, 2024 11:38 pm

Nut Zero is not a real engineering project so does not have to make any sense. It is a Trojan Horse for leftist fascism. And is working.

ferdberple
October 20, 2024 8:44 pm

Hydrogen is not an energy source. It is no different than a battery.

Reply to  ferdberple
October 20, 2024 8:56 pm

Hydrogen is most defiantly is source of energy. The fuel for the Space Shuttle was liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen was the oxidant for the hydrogen. The oxidation of the hydrogen produced steam.

Reply to  Harold Pierce
October 21, 2024 12:43 pm

I do not deserve a -3 rating for my comment.

Reply to  Harold Pierce
October 21, 2024 3:01 pm

Anon man, I thank you for your support. I am no longer in the red.

Rod Evans
Reply to  ferdberple
October 21, 2024 12:21 am

Here on Earth that is broadly correct, to crack hydrogen from water or strip it from natural gas requires energy. The hydrogen you manufacture is always less energy rich than the energy needed to produce it. If that were not the case then a great option for perpetual motion (energy) generation would exist. Sadly it doesn’t.
Maybe the alarmists will offer the option of mining hydrogen from one of the outer planets as an alternative? Maybe using green hydrogen as the rocket fuel to lift the hydrogen tankers off the ground and send them on their way to Jupiter.
If any alarmists are reading this, just to avoid any confusion, I am being sarcastic. :}

Richard Greene
October 20, 2024 11:16 pm

This article tries to scare conservatives with rare wind and solar droughts. No one knows when the next wind drought will occur in the US. It will most likely be local or regional. Texas had a one week wind drought in February 2021 — it was probably the regional wind drought record for the past 50 years. That lack of wind did not cause the 2021 Texas blackout, but wind power was VERY LOW when it was most needed. Texas did not have enough just in time natural gas production in 2021 to heat the state. The same cause as the 2011 Texas blackout.

The first problem is the solar drought every night. Up to 12 hours a day in mid-December. With strong sunlight only possible six hours a day all year long, and NEVER during the high electricity consumption breakfast and dinner hours.

Wind droughts can also occur every day. An average of half the time the wind will be too weak to generate much electricity

The first compound wind and solar drought hurdle is likely to be a windless night in December. That would require 12 hours of battery backup unless gas peaker plants were available.

Not one electric utility in the world has proposed enough battery backup to cover ONE windless December night.

Why scare people with an imaginary future worst case ONE WEEK wind drought, that could happe next week or in 30 years, when planned battery backup can’t even cover a ONE DAY wind drought?

Concerning hydrogen;
Especially green hydrogen
That’s just science fiction green dreaming
I refuse to read science fiction

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 12:28 am

And yet, here you are…

Richard Greene
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
October 21, 2024 5:44 am

A subset of the article was about wind and solar droughts that are important for electric grids with windmills and solar panels.

Graeme4
Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 3:27 am

I don’t know what the expected electricity reliability in the U.S. is supposed to be, but in Australia it’s 99.998%. To achieve that reliability with the expected 82% wind/solar by 2030, the system would have to be designed to cover at a minimum the worst case, which is a minimum of 48 hours of very little wind across the entire eastern network. Since only 18% coal or gas would be allowed, there wouldn’t be any spare coal/gas to provide backup. So far nobody has been able to explain how this grid would have sufficient backup for these long dunkelflautes.

Reply to  Graeme4
October 21, 2024 4:05 am

dunkelflautes!! Gonna remember that one- next time I go to any public event discussing ruinables!

Graeme4
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 21, 2024 3:55 pm

For over six years, a group of devoted researchers have been tracking the wind turbine inputs across the entire National grid that provides power for most of Australia. The entire grid experiences wind dunkelflautes on average a bit more than one every three days, where the entire wind grid input drops to below 30% of its nameplate value.
In Australia, wind CF averages 30%, a bit less than the U.S. Solar surprisingly only averages 16.7%. The combination wind/solar grid input only averages 23% CF.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Graeme4
October 21, 2024 5:50 am

The U.S. power grid is currently considered to be very reliable, with a reliability of 99.95%. This means that the average customer loses power for less than five hours and fewer than two times per year. 

In the past two years in SE Michigan we have had four blackouts. Two lasted two days each. Two lasted one day each. All caused by tree limbs falling on wires or heavy ice on wires. Most of our DTE electricity is from coal,

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 4:02 am

An average of half the time the wind will be too weak to generate much electricity”

What is ideal wind speed? I presume curves have been drawn showing output of electricity as a function of wind speed? So there is an ideal range of wind speeds? (for the moment, forgetting whether or not wind turbines really serve any purpose in the bigger scheme of things)

Richard Greene
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
October 21, 2024 5:55 am

Most wind turbine generators have an operating range between wind speeds of 2.5–3.0 meters per second (m/s) to 23–27 m/s.

The optimum wind speed would match the demand for electricity … which is a fantasy.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 4:38 am

Why scare people with an imaginary future worst case ONE WEEK wind drought, that could happen next week or in 30 years

Because they happen about twice a year, regularly, in the UK! There is nothing imaginary about them!

There is a blocking high to the southwest, and 30 GW of wind produces less than 5 GW for a week or so. Often with days below 1 GW. This is not imaginary, this is a real and regular occurrence. Typically in December, January or February, but it also happens in the summer.

And why worry? Because the present government plans to get to net zero in power generation by 2030, that is, almost entirely reliant on wind and solar, and it has no plans to keep supply going during these entirely predictable week long calms.

Why worry about the season long wind droughts? Because, as the Royal Society showed, they too are a regular feature of the weather in the UK, you will have a low wind season once or twice every 30 years.

There is no point making plans to deal with day to day short duration fluctuations if you do not have a plan to keep supply going during what will otherwise be a nationwide blackout of several days, a couple of times a year, and a whole season, that is a month or two, of very low wind.

This is serious. The plans as currently available are plans to break the UK electricity supply on the rock of these perfectly predictable occurrences.

Richard Greene
Reply to  michel
October 21, 2024 6:08 am

The UK experienced a wind drought in the summer and autumn of 2021. Wind speeds were 15% below average in some areas and even more pronounced in others. This was one of the least windy periods in the UK in the past 60 years. 

You are stretching the definition of a wind drought compared to the biggest US wind drought in Texas i 2021

Wind power was less than 10% of nameplate capacity for a week. Normally wind averages 37% of nameplate capacity in Texas (2023 data) so the decline was over 73%, FAR MORE THAN A 15% DECLINE IN THE UK

My original point was:

Why worry about a one week long wind drought when you do not have enough windmill backup for a one day wind drought?

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 11:29 am

I may not have been clear.

Every year in the UK, usually at least twice, there is a week when wind falls below 10% of faceplate capacity. Faceplate UK is about 30GW. Its not totally absent, such weeks will have some daily peaks of about 5GW, but there will also be days with less than 1GW. Take the full week, and its under 10%.

Its a regular event, caused by a blocking high to the southwest. Its mostly in winter, but sometimes in summer too. Doesn’t matter what they do about the short duration drops, if they have no solution to the blocking high phenomenon, the inevitable result will be national blackouts.

And then cold starts, with no spinning reserve. Look at Cuba at the moment for an example.

The seasonal declines identified by the Royal Society are of longer duration but less deep. They can last a whole summer or winter. They are in addition to this, and independent of the blocking high phenomenon.

October 21, 2024 1:51 am

Funny that, when a business buys an asset then for it to pay back the capital cost you ‘sweat the asset’, ie run it 24hrs a day 365 days a year for best return on capital employed. Apply that to Green technologies and you quickly decide to walk away, whether its a windmill needing Goldilocks winds or the gas power station to fill in the gaps when the wind mill is not producing.

But when you are virtue signalling with taxpayers money it seems sense goes out the window,

Corrigenda
October 21, 2024 1:56 am

Yet in Victorian Times in the UK, Hydrogen – in the form of 60+% town gas – was piped to nearly all houses in the towns and cities in the UK. That network is still in use (upgraded as necessary of course) for today’s natural gas. Of course then it was generated from coal but basically (for countries like the UK) the infrastructure is there. At that time storage did exist using gas holders (gasometers) which ensured adequate pressure.

However the main production approach was to generate on demand. Your article does not mention this I think? Maybe that will be the solution – at least for countries like the UK?

Reply to  Corrigenda
October 21, 2024 2:30 am

The conversion took 8 years from 1968 to 1976, I remember the engineer turning up and changing all the burner jets on the cooker, gas central heating boiler and water heater at my parents house. There were at the time 14M properties to convert.

Now compare this to say the Smart Meter rollout you can see UK’s complete inability to complete major projects on time and in budget means it could not happen today. Its now 30M properties that would need converting.

Reply to  Corrigenda
October 21, 2024 3:32 am

Town gas was always at low pressure. Gasometers were water sealed, limiting the pressure they could hold. There were no long distance pipelines, only low pressure delivery networks: each town or district had its own gasworks. Leaks were common. The gas had a high carbon monoxide content

C+H2O->CO+H2 water shift reaction

Economics will push hydrogen close to sources of power and locations of storage. Any distribution to demand would need to be in high pressure pipelines, especially given the low molar energy density. Problems are biggest for components such as valves.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
October 21, 2024 2:55 pm

Harold the Organic Chemist Says:

That reaction is the water-gas reaction. At gas works, super heated steam was blown through incandescent coke. The mixture of CO and H2 is called illuminating gas. After separation of the CO and H2, the shift reaction is used to produce an additional molecule of H2.

CO + H2O —> CO2 + H2

don k
Reply to  Corrigenda
October 21, 2024 4:36 am

Yes “Town Gas” –a toxic mixture of Hydrogen, Carbon Monoxide, and sometimes a few other things — works. I believe it’s still used in a few situations where conversion to natural gas is more trouble than its worth. The big problem, as I understand it, is that while plumbing for town gas can be used for natural gas distribution, the reverse isn’t necessarily true. I doubt just replacing burner jets for use with Hydrogen (assuming that works) would be that big a deal. But replacing much/most/all of the gas distribution plumbing installed since the 1960s would be a big deal. Maybe a deal breaker?

Reply to  Corrigenda
October 21, 2024 4:47 am

More like 50%. Definitely not over 60%,

Richard Greene
Reply to  Corrigenda
October 21, 2024 6:18 am

In the UK, town gas was historically distributed through cast iron pipes, particularly in older urban areas, as cast iron was the primary material used for gas mains during the early development of gas distribution systems; however, with the switch to natural gas, many of these cast iron pipes have been replaced with plastic ones in recent decades. 

In 1967, the natural gas conversion process commenced in Britain, which took up to ten years to complete (Arapostathis, 2011). As part of the conversion to North Sea natural gas, many of the original cast iron gas pipes installed in towns and cities for town gas were replaced with plastic pipes.

Hydrogen is even prone to leak out of the walls of polyethylene pipes. In fact, the rate at which hydrogen permeates through the walls of the pipe is around five times that of methane.

The UK uses several types of plastic for gas pipelines, including polyethylene (PE), cross-linked polyethylene (PEX), and medium-density polyethylene (MDPE):

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Corrigenda
October 21, 2024 9:31 am

All recent trials of hydrogen as a replacement for gas, such as Redcar and Whitby, Ellesmere Port in the UK have been scrapped

October 21, 2024 2:43 am

This is a fascinating detailed article from one of the top civil servants involved in the first UK hydrogen CFD auction that cleared at £241/MWh or about £9/kg. Remember that this is the price for hydrogen going into a store if you store it.

https://www.baringa.com/en/insights/low-carbon-futures/takeaways-uk-hydrogen-allocation-round/

He acknowledges the need to subsidise the effort through exemption from paying any share of green subsidies for renewables, including any transmission grid costs. He fails to recognise that to produce surpluses you have to have invested in the capacity that provides them, and someone must pay for that. He emphasises the need for offtakers prepared to take the potentially very variable outputs, many of whom would clearly prefer cheaper and more consistent sources of energy or of hydrogen for process use.

The whole idea seems to be to charge ordinary tax and bill payers for all the costs of green virtue signalling.

Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 3:24 am

There are few long term studies of wind droughts, solar droughts and compound wind and solar droughts.

Not a popular subject if you favor wind and solar energy

The following study is the best one I have found

“Energy Droughts” in Wind and Solar Can Last Nearly a Week, Research Shows | News Release | PNNL

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 4:09 am

“Not a popular subject if you favor wind and solar energy”

Absolutlely, NEVER mentioned in Wokeachusetts.

Reply to  Richard Greene
October 21, 2024 4:49 am

UK Royal Scciety report, which has the merit of focusing on a specific case, the UK, and its implications for UK net zero.

October 21, 2024 3:52 am

Apparently, I could be wrong, but here in Wokeachusetts- I haven’t seen anyone or any state agency or any company talking about DEFR. Apparently, they haven’t even gotten that far in their analysis. They actually think it’s simple- wind and solar will do it all.

Dave Andrews
October 21, 2024 9:14 am

In the UK the National Engineering Policy Centre and The Royal Academy of Engineering looked at ‘The Role of Hydrogen in the Net Zero Energy System’ in September 2022 and mentioned a number of drawbacks in a section entitled ‘Green hydrogen risks and dependencies’

“green hydrogen depends on electrolysis using renewable energy and ,therefore a considerable expansion of the UK’s renewable energy capacity”. They estimated this would require “60 – 218 TWh/yr of electricity in 2050 (10% – 24% of total electricity demand) and noted this would entail building windfarms “equivalent to 2-6 times the current UK operational wind farm capacity just to supply hydrogen”

They noted that the need for electrolysers could also “lead to a temporary ramping up of dispatchable generation and delay the phasing out of fossil fuel generation” and also “poses a risk of hampering efforts other areas to decarbonise via direct electrification” (This would not go down well in certain circles 🙂 )

The processes would also require considerable supplies of critical raw materials such as “platinum, iridium and yttrium”

“Access to sufficient water supplies is essential and may need desalination plants as green hydrogen produces concentrated brine, that needs treatment before release”

Additionally, “Hydrogen leakage is likely to cause an increase in methane, water vapour and tropospheric ozone which all contribute to the greenhouse effect. The global warming potential over a 100 year period of hydrogen production is estimated to be double that of previous published calculations”

Despite this they still recommended a rapid scaling up of….”hydrogen infrastructure in the next five years”

Ex-KaliforniaKook
Reply to  Dave Andrews
October 22, 2024 10:59 am

“Hydrogen leakage is likely to cause an increase in methane, water vapour and tropospheric ozone which all contribute to the greenhouse effect.” It may be they know that there is a limit to the global warming due to the greenhouse gases. And the scam (hydrogen production) has to be completed as quickly possible, as even gullible Westerners will eventually wake up, and this pot of gold will dry up.

c1ue
October 22, 2024 8:21 am

There is one scenario where some of the costs may be acceptable: as it turns out, fracking only extracts roughly 10% of the hydrocarbons out of a reservoir. There is considerable effort ongoing to find surfactants to improve the percentage extractable. CO2 is one – mostly because of the massive subsidies associated with “sequestering” it, but maybe hydrogen too.
The problem, though, is going to be the pipelines. Nobody wants a CO2 pipeline near them – the same is going to hold true for hydrogen.