In the fantasy of the zero-emissions electricity future, there will either be regular devastating blackouts, or something must back up the intermittent wind and solar generation. In New York we call that imaginary something the “DEFR” (Dispatchable Emissions Free Resource). But what is it? Nuclear has been blocked for decades, especially in the blue jurisdictions that are most aggressively pursuing the wind/solar future. Batteries are technologically not up to the job, and also wildly too expensive. That leaves hydrogen. Anybody with another idea, kindly speak up.
I’ve had several posts discussing the question of whether hydrogen could do this job, for example this one on February 14, 2024, and this one on July 20. Those posts focused on the initial cost of making hydrogen by electrolysis from water. That cost turns out to be a multiple of the cost of producing natural gas by drilling into rock (for comparable energy content). From time to time I have alluded to other potential problems with having hydrogen replace natural gas in the electricity system — things like leaks, explosions, and the need for an entire new infrastructure of pipelines and trucks to carry the stuff and power plants to burn it. But until now I haven’t found a detailed study on just how bad these additional problems might be.
Now comes along an August 18 article in a peer-reviewed journal called Energy Science & Engineering, with the title “A review of challenges with using the natural gas system for hydrogen.” The article was linked on August 23 by Paul Homewood at the Not a Lot of People Know That site, and then further linked by Watts Up With That on August 24.
The lead author is a guy named Paul Martin. Unusually for an article in such a journal, no academic affiliation is given for Mr. Martin. Looking him up on LinkedIn, I find that he is not an academic, but rather identifies himself as a “chemical process development expert” who has spent “years in industry,” and is currently with Spitfire Research, Inc., which in turn states that it specializes in “consulting for a decarbonized future.” Mr. Martin then identifies several of his co-authors on the paper as a “team of people at the Environmental Defense Fund.” That information may well color your perception of what Martin, et al., have to say in their paper.
The gist of the paper is that the existing natural gas infrastructure of storage facilities, pipelines and power plants absolutely cannot be repurposed for use by hydrogen; and indeed, there does not exist any practical way to transport and combust hydrogen safely on a large scale. And the effort to even try would be wildly costly. I’ll just give examples of some pithy quotes from the paper:
- Pipeline deterioration and cracking: “Recent, extensive testing of typical pipeline materials in Europe demonstrates both acceleration of fatigue cracking and reduction in fracture toughness when hydrogen is used, but the impacts vary widely depending on the material.36 Welds and their heat-affected zones, as well as manufacturing or fabrication defects in the pipe increase vulnerability by serving as crack initiation sites.37”
- “Blending” hydrogen into natural gas is not a solution: “Even with small percentage admixtures of molecular hydrogen in high pressure natural gas pipes made of high-yield strength carbon steels it is expected that considerable acceleration of fatigue cracking, by as much as 30-fold, will occur with fracture resistance of the piping material reduced by as much as 50%.34”
- Lower volumetric energy density of hydrogen means that pipelines and storage facilities would need to be tripled in size to transport the same energy content: “Switching the gas system to pure H2, with an energy density per unit volume roughly one-third that of a typical pipeline gas; therefore, would result in a reduction in “line pack” storage to one-third of the present value if storage pressure and volume are kept constant (Figure 5).49 If pipeline design pressures must be de-rated to accommodate the added risks associated with hydrogen to the pipeline materials of construction (as discussed in Section 3.2), a further reduction in the line pack would be expected.”
- Existing consumer appliances that use natural gas are unsuitable for hydrogen: “H2 is also more explosive, ignitable, burns hotter, and the flame is faster with lower visibility than CH4; these characteristics yield higher safety risks. The significant differences in properties between typical natural gas mixtures and H2, therefore, necessitate changes in the design of burners and burner management systems to achieve comparative levels of safety, which must then be certified (Figure 6).17, 67”.
- Even with new consumer infrastructure, hydrogen would be much more dangerous for consumers than natural gas: “A quantitative risk assessment (QRA) was carried out in advance of a planned trial of pure H2 in a residential gas distribution system in the UK.18 The report concluded that even if the homes were fitted with appliances designed and certified for use with H2, the risk of damage and injury due to fires and explosions would increase in frequency and severity.”
- Conclusion: “Overall, while repurposing the natural gas system for use with hydrogen may, at first, seem appealing, the limited practicality, risks, and data gaps strongly suggest that like-for-like gas substitution provides limited benefits for increased risks, even if major technical and economic hurdles are overcome.”
After all that, you might think that these authors would have given up and decided that we’ll just have to stick with natural gas. But no, remember that these are anti-carbon crusaders allied with the Environmental Defense Fund. Here is the final paragraph of the Conclusion:
[C]ontinuing to rely on natural gas is also not a viable option for addressing the climate crisis. Considering its physical and chemical properties, hydrogen is not an effective decarbonization tool for use in homes and buildings. For any decarbonization strategy, it is critical to determine if a fuel is in fact needed, and to compare with potentially more effective options such as direct electrification using renewably generated electricity.
We’ll just have “direct electrification using renewably generated electricity.” I guess that means, put solar panels on your roof, and when the sun sets the air conditioning and heat go off and the lights go out. It’s the gkam solution without the undisclosed nighttime grid hookup.
Perhaps the most valuable part of the article is the EDF revealing that it stands ready to oppose the buildout of hydrogen infrastructure just as vigorously as it opposes any natural gas infrastructure. Even if zero-emissions electricity were important and hydrogen were a good solution to get there, EDF would be ready with a litigation barrage to block it.
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
People should just stick with Natural Hydrogen sources rather than thinking Man can “Do It Better”.
Nature gave us a natural source of Hydrogen power by bonding it with Carbon and storing it away underground. When the CH4 is oxidized to release energy the beneficial CO2 gas is released to enrich the environment.
Removing the “C” from the energy equation by oxidizing H2 for energy will produce vast quantities of a far stronger greenhouse gas than CO2…H2O
Well, some H2O is created too (as we all know); the burning natural gas equation in atmosphere being:
CH4 + 2(O2 + 3.76 N2) -> CO2 + 2 H2O + 7.52 N2
vs
2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O
Jim: 3.76 N2 comes along with O2 in your second equation as well.
Were you thinking the atmosphere would not be involved,or that I was invoking some slight of (chemical) hand? No, I’m lazy, and if ONE understood the 1st eq. then why repeat that which is already known in the second.AKA, extraneous term.
The question is who you get from burning it what the heat content per given volume. I just check you need three time the volume of hydrogen to match one volume of natural gas. Moving three time as much hydrogen volume is also a problem.
re: “there does not exist any practical way to transport and combust hydrogen safely on a large scale.”
I thought the CH4 molecule (four H atoms attached to one C atom; some call or term it “natural gas”) did an adequate job – que?
“Anybody with another idea, kindly speak up.”
Pumped storage hydro. But, see this: “Storm King Mountain”
Hydrogen could be used to run generators at the site where it is created, avoiding transit. But the round trip efficiency of this can be no better than 25%. I leave it to the engineers to calculate the upper theoretical limit* and how much having sufficient DEFR would cost. More or less expensive than batteries which are insanely expensive.
One more point… As with any new industry, let one catastrophic failure occur and there will be immediate calls to shut all of it down. And, according to Murphy, that failure will happen…
There is one and only one real reason not to use H2. You must put more energy into get it than you can get out burning it.
The problem is not just thermodynamics. It is that 1/3rd of the product is Oxygen, which is freely available in the atmosphere.
I believe the term you are looking for is “Hydrogen embrittlement.”This is well known and dates back to the 19th Century.
For simplicity one can do a search for the works in quotes above and find out how this works and why piping hydrogen has always been a problem.
As with the “COVID” scare which ignored a century of epidemiology knowledge, the quest to remove carbon/hydrocarbon use ignores over a century of metallurgy and physical science.
Please do not be fooled by the ignorant “stupid people.”
Here is a useful quote from On Stupidity by Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1945)
“…it seems that under the overwhelming impact of rising power, humans are deprived of their inner independence and, more or less consciously, give up establishing an autonomous position toward the emerging circumstances. The fact that the stupid person is often stubborn must not blind us to the fact that he is not independent. In conversation with him, one virtually feels that one is dealing not at all with him as a person, but with slogans, catchwords, and the like that have taken possession of him. He is under a spell, blinded, misused, and abused in his very being. Having thus become a mindless tool, the stupid person will also be capable of any evil and at the same time incapable of seeing that it is evil. This is where the danger of diabolical misuse lurks, for it is this that can once and for all destroy human beings.”
Even if an engineering fix is found for embrittlement and leaks, hydrogen is insufficiently dense to work as transport fuel.
Oh dear!
What does this mean for the planned European ‘hydrogen backbone’?
This calls for the repurposing of 30,000 kms of existing natural gas pipelines and the building of over 20,000 kms of hydrogen pipelines at a total cost of 80 -140bn dollars.
https://manhattan.institute/article/green-hydrogen-a-multibillion-dollar-boondoggle
Thank goodness someone else did not plan, build and pay for “30,000 kms of existing natural gas pipelines“. Otherwise they might want to use them.
The Inflation Reduction Act put billions (50+) of tax payer money into the H scam.
Brain Washing our youth has Orwellian consequences.
Ok, here’s my idea. Build new modular Gen 4 nukes sufficient to back up 100% of the wind/solar production (no hurry, shouldn’t take more than 3-4 decades). Then scrap the wind and solar crap and just run the nukes full time. Peak with Nat. Gas and run transport on petroleum fuels as we do now. If gas/diesel gets too expensive people will migrate to EVs.
It is not surprising that activists clamouring for a rapid shut-down of natural gas supply and distribution systems will amplify the (many) problems of re-purposing gas distribution systems using some fraction of “green” hydrogen. These net-zero zealots will stop at nothing to shut down the natural gas business and punish the shareholders.
If you could get past the expense and energy required to create hydrogen, you could use the hydrogen to create methane.
4H2+CO2→CH4+2H2O
The reaction isn’t very efficient, so it would be even more costly than just producing hydrogen, but on the positive side, the infrastructure required to use methane is in place.
Governor Kathy Hochul will be hosting a “Future Energy Economy Summit” on September 4th-5th, 2024.
Hochul Announces a Clean Energy Summit (Roger Caiazza, August 7th, 2024)
Here is the summit’s agenda:
— Welcome Remarks and Morning Keynote
— State of Technology
— Status of Next Generation Energy Technologies
— Luncheon Keynote
— Insights from Large Consumers of Electricity
— Global Perspectives: Representatives from other states and nations who are pursuing advanced nuclear installations.
— New Nuclear Blueprint: Vet Draft Blueprint as framework for New Nuclear Master Plan
— Wrap up and Next Steps
Note that the summit’s late afternoon sessions will be focusing on the option of nuclear power.
Why would nuclear even be under discussion in New York state given that the authors of the 2019 Climate Act say it isn’t needed, and that climate activists in New York state are adamantly opposed to nuclear?
The New York ISO says that to meet New York’s future electricity needs, approximately 30 GW of Dispatchable Emissions Free Resource (DEFR) will be needed in addition to whatever intermittent power that wind & solar, with their low capacity factors, can supply.
In the world of nuclear, maintaining a high capacity factor is the holy grail of nuclear power plant operation. Reaching a capacity factor of 95% or above is today’s target goal for nuclear power.
Nuclear power could supply most of the DEFR the New York ISO says is needed if one major assumption is being made — much lower capacity factors are being accepted for those nuclear power plants which load follow as their primary mission.
For those nuclear plants operating primarily in load-following mode, the price being paid for the electricity those plants generate must be high enough to cover their capital and operating costs.
What is the true agenda behind the summit’s discussion of nuclear?
After what happened with the cost overruns at Vogtle 3 & 4, and after the cancellation of NuScale’s Idaho SMR project because of rising costs, no one can propose more nuclear power plants without supplying an honest and thoroughly transparent estimate for what those plants will actually cost.
Governor Kathy Hochul and her assigned Climate Act implementation staff in New York State government haven’t yet produced an honest and transparent cost estimate for reaching Net Zero in their state. Or any cost estimate at all, for that matter.
The governor and her Climate Act implementation staff can’t get away with staying silent much longer.
I suspect that taking a close look at the price of nuclear power for DEFR purposes is being used as a means of introducing New York’s body politic to the more general topic of what the state’s Net Zero ambitions will ultimately cost. At least for zero emission electricity, anyway.
If what I suspect might be the true purpose of the summit is actually so, then starting with the September 4th-5th presentations, nuclear will be used as a sacrificial whipping boy in order to get a larger discussion started concerning the true costs of New York’s 2019 Climate Act.
Hydrogen, observed in a new form: https://pure.tudelft.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/126823930/1_s2.0_S0360319922022406_main.pdf
Of course, the finishing comments were added to make the paper (relatively) palatable!
“Anybody with another idea, kindly speak up”
128-oz cokes and grid-connected exercise bikes?
I’m saving my flatulence for December use.
Now this demands a demonstration project. And a somewhat disastrous conclusion.
A much better way of moving hydrogen is CH3OH – liquid at ambient temperatures making it much more suitable for transportation. Heck, you could even go for C2H5OH – but keep your hands off my beer!
I guess nobody has heard of Tesla’s new Water Engine in a hybrid vehicle that is already proven to work. Basic Chemistry uses an H-Tube separation of Hydrogen and Oxygen from water that can be stored separately in special cylinders. The engine is a reverse electrolysis that the 2 gases are injected into the cylinders where a spark ignites the gases, creating a internal combustion like any ICE engine does. The water has to be chemically pure by distilling, but to make it electricity conductive an electrolyte has to be added to first separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen. During combustion the gases under pressure are recombined and the exhaust is pure water. This I’d no different than the early 1900s Hydrogen Torch that the Carbon electrodes ignites the Hydrogen and the air provides the Oxygen and water is formed. The Water Engine turns a Electric Generator that supplies the Electricity to the electric motors, brakes,etc and smaller storage batteries than EVs require. It gets around 400 miles per tank of water.
Governments are trying to block this with laws and regulations about transportation of Hydrogen. Tesla has gone to great advancements of making these vehicles as safe as possible against accidents. Infrastructure is needed to distill water and add the electrolytes. Which is non-combustable to transport to every fossils fuels station and a simple metered pump to fill the water tanks in the vehicles and any container that can hold water.
Obviously both Hydrogen and Oxygen are highly flammable alone and combined can explode. But so is gasoline and EV batteries. Bottled water is getting expensive as buying fossil fuels. But the energy of a gallon of water is much greater than fossil fuels. The efficiency of the Water Engine is also much greater than normal ICE and they operate much cooler during combustion.
I have only seen one video on this technology. So my information is limited.