Ampol CEO: EV Prices Need to Halve to Interest Consumers

Essay by Eric Worrall

According to Aussie Ampol Chief Executive Matt Halliday, whose company is investing heavily in a charging network, Electric Vehicles are currently too expensive to replace Fossil Fuel powered vehicles as mass transport.

Ampol boss: EV prices need to halve

Angela Macdonald-Smith Senior resources writer
Updated Aug 22, 2022 – 6.18pm,first published at 8.43am

The price of electric vehicles needs to roughly halve and fall into the $20,000s range before Australians will switch from traditional combustion engine cars, according to Ampol chief executive Matt Halliday.

Government policies on vehicle emissions efficiency will do little to shift the dial on uptake rates, he added.

Speaking after Ampol more than doubled first-half benchmark profit amid soaring profits in refining and spiking pump prices, Mr Halliday said he expected little change in demand for traditional fuels such as petrol and diesel out to 2030, given EVs would not reach price parity with traditional cars until later in the decade.

“Getting access to EVs, and particularly getting access to EVs at lower price points, is going to be a really important part of what that policy initiative will need to achieve, in our view.”

Read more (paywalled): https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/ampol-profit-more-than-doubles-on-refining-revival-20220822-p5bbni

EVs of course suffer other problems besides cost, especially in a country with vast distances like Australia.

I know someone who drives an EV around town. He loves his EV, because he can mostly keep it topped up from a big solar array he installed on his car port roof just for the EV, or by plugging it into the free shopping mall charger.

But my friend has a spare gasoline vehicle, in case he needs to drive outside of town.

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Terry
August 22, 2022 10:09 pm

Electric vehicles falling in price? Seeing will be believing. Tesla raised their price 3 months ago, and Ford bumped the price for their electric truck by $8500.00 a few days ago. Reasons expressed by both – increasing costs of batteries. China controls the market for materials – why will they reduce the price? They can price those material lower than the west can produce them for the foreseeable future and will do so in a way that increases their profits.

Bill Toland
Reply to  Terry
August 22, 2022 10:36 pm

From the article: ” EVs would not reach price parity with traditional cars until later in the decade”.
There is zero chance of electric cars reaching price parity because the more electric cars which are built, the higher the demand for the raw materials in the batteries. Inevitably, this will force up the cost of the raw materials which will increase the cost of the batteries. The price differential between electric cars and traditional cars will only increase in the future.

steve
Reply to  Bill Toland
August 23, 2022 12:55 am

I have believed similar to you Bill, but at least with abundant graphite , the major component of a battery, I doubt that will happen… the graphite required is cheap and plentiful. Prices are not increasing much at all and if they do then there are plenty of proven resources ready to spring into action. Rare earths are a different story that I cannot comment on.

Bill Toland
Reply to  steve
August 23, 2022 1:04 am
Harry
Reply to  steve
August 23, 2022 2:19 am

Lithium is the chief component of EV batteries, not graphite. Lithium’s price has increased by more than 500% since January 2021. There is a supply shortage and estimates of production through to 2030 continue to have it in drastically short supply.

Gerry, England
Reply to  Harry
August 23, 2022 2:47 am

They also need cobalt if they want the battery to be a fast charger.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Gerry, England
August 23, 2022 3:07 am

there goes another few hundred african childrens lives..

Spetzer86
Reply to  Gerry, England
August 23, 2022 4:44 am

We need to increase the birthrates in the Congo to maintain cobalt supplies!

Brad-DXT
Reply to  Spetzer86
August 23, 2022 9:56 am

That goes against the WEF protocol of reducing the population. They will have to import Uighurs from China’s work camps.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Harry
August 23, 2022 7:21 am

Earlier this year the IEA said the world faced potential shortages of lithium and cobalt as early as 2025.

Hasbeen
Reply to  steve
August 23, 2022 6:33 am

The LiPo batteries for my remote control planes have increased by 200% in the last 5 years.

Doonman
Reply to  Hasbeen
August 23, 2022 8:47 am

All batteries have soared in price. Have you checked the price of a 1900 technology lead acid battery lately?

JonasM
Reply to  Doonman
August 23, 2022 4:44 pm

Just bought an off-brand battery for a 2009 Honda Fit. $200. Ouch.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  JonasM
August 27, 2022 3:28 pm

The same goes for auto tires! Just TRY finding a cheap tire for under $200!

Dave Andrews
Reply to  steve
August 24, 2022 9:13 am

According to the IEA China has 80% of global graphite mining and dominates the entire graphite anode supply chain end- to- end’

China’s share of global EV battery production was 76% in 2021 the next highest shares were the US and the EU with 7% each. Don’t upset China!

Fraizer
Reply to  Bill Toland
August 23, 2022 9:41 am

If the government has its way, they will reach parity – but not because the price on an EV goes down.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Fraizer
August 27, 2022 3:29 pm

They will ‘reach parity’ by increasing the cost of an ICE!

Reply to  Bill Toland
August 23, 2022 11:06 am

Most of an entire IC vehicle can be crushed and recycled into another vehicle. I don’t think that can be done with an EV.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  James Schrumpf
August 27, 2022 3:29 pm

Everything but the batteries!

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Terry
August 23, 2022 7:28 am

Here is a good example of how things will go in the green path to nowhere. 1) have a Canadian company mine rare earths in Greenland, 2) process the rare earths in eastern Europe, 3) sell the overpriced components and final products in overpriced North American and European markets, and 4) declare success for the elites.

Rare earths processor buys rights to mine in Greenland – ABC News (go.com)

ResourceGuy
Reply to  ResourceGuy
August 23, 2022 2:49 pm
Paul Penrose
Reply to  Terry
August 23, 2022 9:55 am

Probably even more limiting will be the increasing costs of copper. Not only do EVs require a lot of copper wire, but so do windmills and the expanding electrical distribution system. And there are no good alternatives to copper.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Paul Penrose
August 23, 2022 2:53 pm

A short list of project developments….

5​ Major Copper Projects to Watch in 2022 (investingnews.com)

Bryan A
August 22, 2022 10:13 pm

EVs need to…
Cost the same as their ICE equivalents (without increasing the ICE equivalent cost to match EVs)
Tow 10,000#s with little range loss (Trucks & SUVs)
Tow 5,000#s with little range loss (Cars)
Refuel (recharge) from nearly empty to full in 6 minutes or less
Not Spontaneously Combust
Travel a minimum 300 miles on a full charge

All of which current Gas/Diesel fueled cars and trucks can do

Dennis
Reply to  Bryan A
August 22, 2022 10:50 pm

My builder tradesman son said recently that he would consider trading in his Mitsubishi Triton Diesel 4WD utility truck on an EV if the range was an achievable 500 kilometres and regular fully charging did not cause battery pack early failure. Also recharging time no longer than 15 minutes with conveniently located public access recharge stations similar to the existing petrol and diesel outlets in number and locations.

And equivalent drive away price for the EV.

Gerry, England
Reply to  Dennis
August 23, 2022 2:50 am

Even at 15 minutes to charge, that will require twice the area of current filling stations. And the other elephant in the room is being able to provide the enough electricity.

Spetzer86
Reply to  Gerry, England
August 23, 2022 4:47 am

Governments love forcing people to electric heat and EVs. Few people in government seem to grasp that it all requires more power stations. RE isn’t going to cover it, even with the world’s best batteries to store excess for a rainy day. They all seem completely clueless, or more clever than they’d ever get credit for…

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Spetzer86
August 27, 2022 3:34 pm

In order to store energy for a rainy day, there has to be enough sunlight/wind to provide the power needed every day, PLUS enough to store for later! There isn’t! Even if we cover every square inch of available land, there will NEVER be enough energy! It’s an idiots daydream!

Reply to  Dennis
August 23, 2022 11:08 am

Why would he do that? There’s no good reason to purchase an EV.

Steve4192
Reply to  Bryan A
August 23, 2022 5:01 am

You missed a few important ones IMO:

Be able to run the heat/AC with little range loss

Be able to operate in extreme heat/cold with little range loss

Have a ubiquitous refueling/charging infrastructure that matches that available for ICE vehicles

Have an electric grid that support that level of infrastructure without becoming unreliable

Have electricity at a price point that doesn’t make recharging prohibitively expensive

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Steve4192
August 27, 2022 3:35 pm

In other words; GOOD LUCK with that crap!

Slowroll
Reply to  Bryan A
August 23, 2022 9:28 am

Then there is the problem of where the electricity comes from if all (most) cars are electric. The grid has trouble supplying enough power now with their freaking green mandates. Add to that the proposed (solution!?) Of drawing down everyone’s EV to support the grid when it’s overloaded. Howinhell can all the EVs support the grid if they’re not charged in the first place?

Bryan A
Reply to  Slowroll
August 23, 2022 10:27 pm

The key to that debacle is to NOT have your car plugged in overnight. Plug in when you get home and unplug before bed…Or recharge at a Charging station and don’t plug in at home

August 22, 2022 10:30 pm

“According to Aussie Ampol Chief Executive Matt Halliday, whose company is investing heavily in a charging network, Electric Vehicles are currently too expensive to replace Fossil Fuel powered vehicles as mass transport”
Sounds a bit confused.

Ampol is of course basically an oil firm.

Derg
Reply to  Nick Stokes
August 22, 2022 11:33 pm

Imagine that, an oil company investment in unreliables….I wonder why 🤔

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Derg
August 23, 2022 3:09 am

like betting every horse in the race isnt it?
lol
but the claims…of greenery for the deluded green buyers is gold in their accounts

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Eric Worrall
August 23, 2022 4:24 am

LMAO – Good luck waiting for all those problems to be ‘fixed.’

Mr.
Reply to  Eric Worrall
August 23, 2022 8:17 am

Like Maccas selling fake meat hamburgers.

Not a lot of them, but once they get punters into the shop, they can always double up on “would you like fries with that?”

Nick misses the point that servos these days are also convenience stores.

MarkW
Reply to  Mr.
August 23, 2022 8:28 am

He’s not missing the point.
He’s doing a combination of attempting to change the subject, and attacking the messenger.

Brad-DXT
Reply to  Eric Worrall
August 23, 2022 10:06 am

I believe the engineering obstacles you listed are too large and numerous to overcome anytime soon, probably not within our lifetimes. But then I’m old.
Perhaps they will be solved in a hundred years. By then I hope people can power up with Mr. Fusion. 😀

Editor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
August 22, 2022 11:53 pm

EV drivers are currently freeloading on the rest of drivers.

They get a grant for the vehicle, often evade congestion and emission and parking charges. Don’t pay the fuel tax element on their fuel (in the UK some 45% of the price of a gallon of fuel is tax) don’t pay as much for a road licence and don’t pay for the greater wear and tear on the roads due to their heavier weight nor having to upgrade the domestic electricity supply and provision of public electric chargers

If you were to add in these various costs then running an EV would not look as superficially cost effective. Add in its greater initial cost, range anxiety and the cost of installing a charger in your home and the maths stop stacking up.

tonyb

Klem
Reply to  tonyb
August 23, 2022 1:05 am

Not to mention of having to endure the humiliation and embarrassment of diving an EV in public.

MarkW
Reply to  Klem
August 23, 2022 8:30 am

I would not advise diving an EV. Water and electricity don’t mix.

Brad-DXT
Reply to  MarkW
August 23, 2022 10:16 am

And in it won’t put out the fire when the EV batteries spontaneously combust.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  tonyb
August 23, 2022 4:20 am

At some point soon the missing taxes will have to be applied to EVs.
I would think that it will be a cost per mile charge using some form of tracking, this has an added benefit for governments in monitoring other driving habits, like speeding, for which there can be added expense.

Spetzer86
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
August 23, 2022 4:50 am

“some form of tracking”…Is there an EV that doesn’t phone home on a regular basis? Is there an EV without a map function? Seems to me the tracking and enforcement are built into the package. Don’t speed or the car will report you. Don’t pay the bill and the car will just sit where it is.

Steve4192
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
August 23, 2022 5:08 am

I agree that at some point the taxes will have to be applied to EVs.

Not so sure about the ‘soon’ part though.

I don’t see the consumer market embracing EVs en masse anytime ‘soon’ unless auto makers follow through on their promises to stop selling ICE vehicles. I don’t think they will. I think they’ll see the anemic sales numbers for EVs and the robust sales numbers for ICE vehicles and decide they would rather stay in business than go bankrupt.

H.R.
Reply to  Steve4192
August 23, 2022 5:54 am

Steve4192: I think they’ll see the anemic sales numbers for EVs and the robust sales numbers for ICE vehicles and decide they would rather stay in business than go bankrupt.”


Maybe, but what choice will they have but to make EVs and go bankrupt when the gub’mint says they must halt ICE production by 2030?

It takes time to develop and put out any vehicle, so the automakers are starting now to be first to market. Then what do the automakers do when the gub’mint says, “Oops. We won’t get reelected. The voters are up in arms over EVs” and they tell the automakers, “Never mind”?

The same is happening with power supplies. The IOC (Idiots In Charge) ordered coal plants to be torn down. Oops! It seems the plants are needed after all given the current gas shortage. What? The plants can’t just be turned back on like flipping a light switch? Those evil fossil fuel companies need to be punished for that.

John in Oz
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
August 23, 2022 4:06 pm

Taxes on EVs are already occurring in Oz

https://www.solarcitizens.org.au/ev_tax_explainer

https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/victoria-passes-ev-tax-effective-july-1-2021

Of course, the EVangelists are complaining that it is detrimental to EV sales and wish for the ICE vehicles to continue to pay fuel taxes but not themselves.

Kevin
Reply to  tonyb
August 23, 2022 8:23 am

You forgot to mention “plugging it into the free shopping mall charger.”

Doonman
Reply to  tonyb
August 23, 2022 8:54 am

You forgot to include the cost of replacing the battery of the vehicle when it won’t charge anymore. If you can still get one.

steve
Reply to  Nick Stokes
August 23, 2022 12:49 am

And of course like any new essential item, there is a change over period… in this case, one that is going to take much longer than the zealots would like to have you believe… reality against dreams.

Ampol’s strategy like most other oil majors reflects that reality.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  steve
August 23, 2022 7:37 am

Yep. The IEA estimated there were c. 16m EVs worldwide at the end of 2021 and there could be 200m-250m by 2030. For this to occur up to 127 new lithium, nickel and cobalt mines would have to be opened.

A recent report for the EU Commission estimated there would be 140m-220m EVs in Europe by 2050.

There are currently over 1.4 billion ICEVs.worldwide. There is no way all these can be replaced by EVs by 2050

Last edited 1 month ago by Dave Andrews
MarkW
Reply to  Dave Andrews
August 23, 2022 8:33 am

I suspect that number is just for the new cars being made. I doubt it covers replacing the batteries that wear out or self combust.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  MarkW
August 24, 2022 9:02 am

Yes I don’t think they were even considering replacement batteries.

Climate believer
Reply to  Nick Stokes
August 23, 2022 1:32 am

Matt Halliday is right.

A study of 15,549 drivers commissioned by the AA and Electrifying.com (not oil firms), found:

A massive 81% of people think electric cars are still too expensive.

Pflashgordon
Reply to  Climate believer
August 23, 2022 7:31 am

The other 19% are just ignorant of the cost, typical of just about any poll.

MarkW
Reply to  Pflashgordon
August 23, 2022 8:34 am

The other possibility is that they are so determined to push electrics on other people that they are willing to lie.

Drake
Reply to  Pflashgordon
August 23, 2022 9:45 am

The other 19% is in the top 20% of wage earners, so can AFFORD to waste money on an EV, while getting subsidized by all taxpayers. Win win for them, let a ditch digger, convenience store clerk, Starbucks barista, etc. help them virtue signal.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Climate believer
August 27, 2022 3:44 pm

And probably at least 90% think the entire idea is stupid!

LdB
Reply to  Nick Stokes
August 23, 2022 6:13 am

Bit like a climate scientist talking then …. they are both selling something.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  LdB
August 27, 2022 3:45 pm

Yes, something that NO ONE wants!

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
August 23, 2022 8:27 am

And here comes Nick, desperate to change the subject.

Drake
Reply to  Nick Stokes
August 23, 2022 9:46 am

So what Nick. Speak to the FACT stated in your quote.

Old Man Winter
August 22, 2022 10:38 pm

“He loves his EV, because he can mostly keep it topped up from a big solar array he installed on his car port roof just for the EV”

bo0sola0.jpg
Drake
Reply to  Old Man Winter
August 23, 2022 9:48 am

You didn’t show W. Bush’s place, but it does not fit in with those clowns. AND he used geothermal heat pumps on his Crawford ranch house.

waza
August 22, 2022 10:40 pm

Yes it’s just not the cost of vehicle.
There are a lot more hurdles to overcome.

Example – Electric Garbage Trucks.
Inner city or suburban use of known routes, with known GVM to load capacities.
Collection routes have already been optimised.
Range not a problem, so why are do gooder councils using them???

If ICE garbage truck weighs 30,000lsb and can carry 20,000lbs of garbage
but
EV garbage truck weighs 35,000lbs and can carry only 15,000lbs of garbage
You need 33% more trucks.
The cost of extra trucks must be considered not just the extra cost per truck.

Dennis
Reply to  waza
August 22, 2022 10:55 pm

Consider the loss of payload to accommodate battery pack on commercial vehicles, in Australia in particular twin trailer B-Doubles and road trains of three to four trailers.

As far as I can work out to keep transport times reasonable one trailer would need to be carrying the battery pack and at depots swapped for a fully charged battery trailer with similar range capability to the existing Diesel engine prime movers/tractors.

And that loss of payload would be a significant loss of revenue and taxable profit.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Dennis
August 23, 2022 3:12 am

and more ruined roads for less actual result ie real goods carted

MarkW
Reply to  Dennis
August 23, 2022 8:36 am

However, all the additional drivers can have their wages taxed.

Drake
Reply to  MarkW
August 23, 2022 9:50 am

BUT, self driving trucks, at least for the long haul portions, so tax the robots?

Brad-DXT
Reply to  Drake
August 23, 2022 10:33 am

H.R.
Reply to  MarkW
August 23, 2022 9:53 am

Always look on the bright side, eh Mark? 😉

Gerry, England
Reply to  waza
August 23, 2022 3:32 am

Greenie capital of the UK, Brighton went for battery refuse trucks. Brighton is on the edge of the South Downs which means hills. And this meant that the battery trucks could only get through half the round of a diesel truck before the battery went flat and they needed to return to the depot and spend the rest of the day charging. So straight away they are 50% less efficient. But they were also far more expensive to buy with a premium of something like 50%. So in order to complete a day’s work, you need 2 battery trucks that will const you 3 times as much as 1 diesel truck.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Gerry, England
August 23, 2022 7:45 am

I remember reading a while back, probably here on WUWT, about two cities in Germany that brought in electric buses but after a couple of years use needed to replace the batteries and couldn’t afford to do so. They were very hilly places too.

Drake
Reply to  Gerry, England
August 23, 2022 9:53 am

Not to worry, they will just use two shifts one in the morning and one in the evening, with a break in between to recharge the vehicles, so you get to hear the noise at dinnertime or while watching TV, as opposed to it happening while you are at work and your ids are at school. EVERYTHING must change, for the worse, for the Green God worshipers.

Dennis
August 22, 2022 10:46 pm

Agreed, EV prices need to halve, to interest city and suburban drivers maybe, the odd country in town only driver but few other drivers who want better range and much lower recharging times with service stations as many as the liquid fuel stations now available.

Add the need for a much wider range of choices with emphasis in Australia on SUV and Utes that can tow heavy loads.

Derg
Reply to  Dennis
August 22, 2022 11:36 pm

And in the US, EV owners do not pay for roads and bridges…effn free loaders.

Pflashgordon
Reply to  Derg
August 23, 2022 8:13 am

Freeloaders indeed!

In the U.S., 15-20% of the cost of gasoline or diesel is federal and state (varies by state) taxes. In the EU, combined fuel tax and VAT are easily >50% of the cost of fuel. When (if) EVs significantly penetrate the market, the governments will be forced to develop a taxing system to generate the equivalent (or higher due to vehicle weight differences and possibly an infrastructure fee to cover increasing power generation, distribution and charging infrastructure costs) tax revenue. That is just the taxes. The electricity for charging will also be billed at market rates (no more freeloading).

So I recently commented on the price of Teslas compared to common ICE sedans and SUVs. Right now, even a low end long-range Tesla costs twice the price of a mid-sized sedan or crossover SUV from any of the major brands. Assuming no taxes and free electricity, a Tesla owner would take at least 15 to 20 years to recover the price difference, if the car could even last that long. (Teslas have many known reliability and maintenance problems). So if we now add in taxes and charging costs, the marginal operating cost advantage of the EV becomes so small that the EV buyer can never come close to breaking even.

So if EV mandates and ICE bans were to become reality in the UK, the auto fleet after a few years would look like Cuba today, except for the few elites driving their expensive EVs.

9172A03D-8920-4446-99DE-B13B0FBD6DEF.jpeg
H.R.
Reply to  Pflashgordon
August 23, 2022 10:04 am

Why hasn’t Cuba fired up a small automotive factory by now? It doesn’t have to produce millions of cars of all different styles. Just some sort of Amigo-Trabant-mobile. Heck, even an electric golf cart factory would probably work.

Oh… silly me. You can’t control the people as easily if you don’t know where they are gallivanting about in the country.

Never mind…

John in Oz
Reply to  Pflashgordon
August 23, 2022 4:12 pm

Yes, but, but, but – think of the children/grandchildren. great grandchildren …..

a happy little debunker
August 22, 2022 10:59 pm

The alternative is to make ICE Vehicles doubly more expensive.
A strategy the developed world seems intent on applying.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  a happy little debunker
August 23, 2022 12:11 am

Raise fuel emissions standards & cost to promote the EV scam.

EVgenr8r.jpg
MarkW
Reply to  Old Man Winter
August 23, 2022 8:42 am

Weren’t they supposed to put a tarp around that thing?

ozspeaksup
Reply to  a happy little debunker
August 23, 2022 3:14 am

which means us older car drivers will keep them even longer than the 20+yrs we do now

MarkW
Reply to  ozspeaksup
August 23, 2022 8:43 am

I’m pretty sure younger drivers will be doing this as well.

Last edited 1 month ago by MarkW
Drake
Reply to  MarkW
August 23, 2022 10:01 am

You made me LOL!

I hope you meant that as a joke.

I love the English language.

It appears you read OLDER car drivers, not older car DRIVERS as meant by oz.

I am an older car DRIVER and an OLDER car driver.

I buy cars new and own them for over 15 years so mostly driving older cars, but am also in my 60s so am also older than most, Oz and I fit BOTH interpretations of the sentence.

MarkW
Reply to  Drake
August 23, 2022 1:11 pm

English is very much a positional language. Where you put a word in a sentence can change it’s meaning.

“drivers of older cars” would have been more clear even if longer.

I read somewhere that in Greek is more free format, you can put a word where ever you want, and it doesn’t change the meaning of the sentence.

John in Oz
Reply to  a happy little debunker
August 23, 2022 4:15 pm

The new Oz government has all of the answers.

Labor MP Patrick Gorman says the Labor Party’s fuel emissions standards is part of the conversation they had at the election to commit “to have a national electric vehicle strategy”.

“Of course, in doing that, you are going to have to talk about fuel standards and emission standards,” Mr Gorman told Sky News Australia.

“It’s about making sure that they’ve got vehicles that last longer, vehicles that cost less to run and a wider range of vehicle choice when it comes to low emission vehicles in Australia.”

Iain Russell
August 22, 2022 11:20 pm

Only richies can afford EVs. Soak the rich!!

Brad-DXT
Reply to  Iain Russell
August 23, 2022 10:42 am

I thought the expression was “Eat The Rich”. 😛

waza
August 22, 2022 11:25 pm

Vehicle – Includes cars, trucks, ships and planes.
Ships and Planes create an incredible amount of CO2.
When will we get EV ships and planes?

Derg
Reply to  waza
August 22, 2022 11:37 pm

Can’t they retrofit sails on cargo ships 😉

Steve Reddish
Reply to  Derg
August 23, 2022 7:45 am

Sure, if fleets are willing to reduce speed by 3/4 while only going one way around the world. Otherwise those sails will be getting dragged through the air.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Derg
August 23, 2022 7:59 am

Apparently the maximum size for a sailing cargo boat is about 50metres with a cargo capacity of 350 tonnes.

A modern container ship can carry over 20,000 containers. Reduce that to 1000 containers and plaster the top deck with sails and it still wouldn’t move.

MarkW
Reply to  Dave Andrews
August 23, 2022 8:49 am

The ultimate make work project. Think how many more sailors are going to have to be hired. Though we might not need as many dock workers, because it won’t take long to load and unload each vessel.

Brad-DXT
Reply to  MarkW
August 23, 2022 10:44 am

You’ll need just as many dock workers if you make them unload only using spoons.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  waza
August 23, 2022 3:14 am

some dimwit up in qld is talking of leccy planes
reckon passengers mightnt be so eager myself

Bill Toland
Reply to  ozspeaksup
August 23, 2022 5:44 am
Drake
Reply to  Bill Toland
August 23, 2022 10:03 am

What if you get them in the air with rockets???

You know, ELECTRIC rockets.

MarkW
Reply to  Drake
August 23, 2022 6:48 pm
Greytide
Reply to  waza
August 23, 2022 3:51 am

CO2 is not a problem, all it does is help plants grow!

Derg
Reply to  Greytide
August 23, 2022 4:14 am

This ^

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  waza
August 23, 2022 4:49 am

When can we load up all the ‘greens’ into a BEV plane and send them on a long journey?

Brad-DXT
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
August 23, 2022 10:55 am

I remember an old science fiction story about how the world was overwhelmed with incompetents so they convinced a lot of them to board a rocket for a free vacation paradise to Venus (maybe it was Mars) which of course didn’t exist.
This was an intelligence and gullibility test that the participants failed, kind of like the push for Net Zero and EVs.
People that fall for this crap will get the Darwin Award eventually. Hopefully before they drag the rest of us down with them.

Old Cocky
Reply to  Brad-DXT
August 23, 2022 2:23 pm

Ahh, but remember what happened after all the telephone sanitisers left on the “B” ark.

MarkW
Reply to  waza
August 23, 2022 8:47 am

They’ve been working on electric planes for several years.
some international organization recently published new regulations on ships requiring them to slow down in order to burn less fuel.

Coeur de Lion
August 22, 2022 11:39 pm

Let’s not forget that CO2 does not affect the weather. It’s pollution in cities to be reduced by EVs. But as Waza says, it’s a bit pointless when one factors in diesel powered artics upon which our civilization depends. Batteries? Dearie me.

Bill Toland
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
August 22, 2022 11:54 pm

Electric cars won’t stop air pollution in cities. In fact, since electric cars are heavier than traditional cars, particulate matter pollution from tyres will actually increase.

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/this-is-why-electric-cars-won't-stop-air-pollution

MarkW
Reply to  Bill Toland
August 23, 2022 12:44 pm

Thanks to catalytic converters and other pollution control equipment, in many cities, the air that comes out of a gasoline powered engine is cleaner than the air that went in.

Peta of Newark
August 22, 2022 11:54 pm

That’s easy to do….
As I recall from not soooo very long ago, the Nissan factory at Sunderland UK would take in blocks of raw metal in one door and out of another would come complete car engines – all it needed was water, oil, fuel plus some sort of ‘wheel arrangement/chassis’
And they would charge you £250 for that engine. A gearbox to suit was £80

So there you have it Mr Matt.
Bin the battery and put a real engine in instead and The Job’s Done

I came upon that from someone recounting a tale where they themselves had put diesel in the tank of a petrol car. Their Local trustworthy Long Established Garage insisted on fitting a Brand New Engine.
At an all up cost of £2,500 – of which half was the cost of ‘parts’
The insurance company was paying, of course.

Think about it – in a nutshell, nicely sums up electric cars doesn’t it?
Platefuls of wrong wrong wrong and ever more, Wrong.
With sides of Greed and Mendacity
Just for once, us mere mortals have to have a ‘balanced diet’ 😀

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Peta of Newark
August 23, 2022 1:21 am

Through Life Support is where it is at, esp in smaller production runs where economy of scale doesn’t really kick in.

Harsh truth… or at least so our senior management told up 😛

steve
August 23, 2022 12:44 am

We all know someone who has an EV and does almost no miles… and thinks it wonderful… I have two such friends…I recently visited the UK and was picked up by one such friend who is on his second top of the range EV..This one is a Jag. He readily admits that it is a rich mans toy. He still believes he is helping the environment, even if it is somewhat a token gesture. Of course he has another two smokin ICE hot vehicles that they still drive every day.

Barnes Moore
August 23, 2022 1:10 am

Easy fix – just have the government add a surtax on ICE vehicles to double their cost. I am sure Mayor Pete and the squad would think that is a grand idea.

Martin
August 23, 2022 1:46 am

“Electric Vehicles are currently too expensive to replace Fossil Fuel powered vehicles as mass transport” – that is their whole point. Those in power consider cheap personal mass transport offered by privately owned ICE powered vehicles to be the greatest mistake of the 20th century

Pflashgordon
Reply to  Martin
August 23, 2022 8:31 am

Yes, they want the few of us who survive to live in tightly-packed cities where powered transit is rare or illegal. Of course, some deplorables “out there” in flyover country will still be required to supply the needed food, clothing, construction materials, energy, and manufactured goods.

UK-Weather Lass
August 23, 2022 1:48 am

If electric vehicles were so much cleverer and better then they would eventually outsell ICE vehicles on their own account. The fact that politicians are telling us big porkies about climate, weather and carbon dioxide to push the need for us to trade in our ICE for an EV, is all you need to know. EVs are not greener nor are they more environmentally friendly, period.

Waza
August 23, 2022 1:49 am

EV not fit for purpose example.
The woke Victorian Labor Government doesn’t pat tax on vehicles and has had every opportunity to replace its various fleets with EVs.
In the last few years the Victorian Police has replaced all its typical v6 and v8 ICE Ford and GM sedans.
REplaced highway patrol with v8 and turbo 6 ICE BMWs and MBs.
Replaced standard patrol cars with diesel Hyundai and VWs.
No EV cop cars as not fit for purpose and not cost effective.

Generally, Australian Government entities can dictate their own vehicle policies, but clearly their own staff that use the actual vehicles are winning over their woke colleagues.

Tony
August 23, 2022 1:54 am

Living in country Victoria, I would go out tomorrow and buy a good EV for $25k for driving around town, shopping and stuff and save the ICE for commutes to Melbourne, trips to Bendigo, Ballarat, etc, and holidays. But I’m not buying one for $50k.

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Tony
August 23, 2022 3:18 am

why? 2 lots of rego tyres and the rest if you wanted to save money then a LPG only would be as good if not better

MarkW
Reply to  Tony
August 23, 2022 8:54 am

Not everyone can afford two cars, even if the EV was the same price as a real car.

Last edited 1 month ago by MarkW
Dave Fair
Reply to  MarkW
August 23, 2022 2:21 pm

And what would an EV used car market look like? This is a serious issue. Many, many people can only afford used cars.

MarkW
Reply to  Dave Fair
August 23, 2022 6:52 pm

Not good. Once the battery has reached the end of its life, the value of the car essentially goes negative.

August 23, 2022 2:04 am

US MSRP
(base retail price with no options, transportation charges or sales tax)

Tesla model 3 electric = $46,990
Toyota Camry LE ICE = $25.945

— The Camry is a larger vehicle with much higher reliability.
Insurance will be cheaper too

ozspeaksup
Reply to  Richard Greene
August 23, 2022 3:21 am

so heres the aus webpage
it and others? go NOwhere
https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3

ozspeaksup
August 23, 2022 3:06 am

doesnt matter how cheap they get many of us dont want a crematorium on wheels, thats not going to last 20 yrs or more, that has NO way of owner or anyone else fixing it, without large bills and workshops specific to them, little resale value and huge costs for replacement batteries.
present chatter is a FOUR K hit to all new ICE buyers to fund the discounts on these crapmobiles as well. wonder how theyre planning to bite us who already own older vehicles(they already do via increased rego on over 4 cyl)

Ilma
August 23, 2022 3:07 am

I doubt is cost price is the main issue, but where the electricity is going to come from to charge them, as it sure isn’t coming from ‘excess’ wind and solar. Anyway, with the materials for EVs, principally the batteries, becoming scarcer, and China monopolising supply, I doubt whether EV prices can drop. I think the expectation is prices will go the other way, i.e. UP!

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Ilma
August 23, 2022 8:29 am

The price of lithium rose by over 700% between Jan 21 and May 22 and is still rising.The IEA foresees worldwide shortages of both lithium and cobalt by 2025. There needs to be a huge expansion of mining for lithium, nickel and cobalt – IEA estimate up to 127 new mines by 2030 alone. It takes many years to bring new mines to full production.

China’s share of EV battery production capacity in 2021 was 76% with US 7%, EU 7%, Korea 5%, Japan 4%, S E Asia 1%

I believe you are correct in saying it is unlikely EV prices can drop.

Pflashgordon
Reply to  Ilma
August 23, 2022 8:35 am

Price is indeed a main issue, just not the only one.

pochas94
August 23, 2022 3:50 am

Not only that, but those puny windmills just can’t deliver the push to move an American family down the road to grandma’s. Especially when the wind doesn’t blow.

Joseph Zorzin
August 23, 2022 4:57 am

“…plugging it into the free shopping mall charger…”

for real?

MarkW
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
August 23, 2022 8:59 am

I used to schedule my trips to Sam’s so they coincided with the times they give out the most free samples. By the time I finished my shopping I would only need a light snack when I got home in order to finish my lunch.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
August 23, 2022 2:28 pm

Who is paying for those free chargers and the electricity they deliver?

Duane
August 23, 2022 5:05 am

If you want a cheap to buy vehicle there are plenty of EVs in the upper 20K USD to lower 30K USD not including any government subsidies, and presumably these are also available in Australia. Models include the Nissan Leaf, Ioniq, MX-30, Kona, etc.

However, initial purchase price is just one part of the lifetime cost of owning and operating any vehicle, and EVs are all much cheaper to fuel up than gas/diesel vehicles. And EVs have lower maintenance costs (far fewer moving parts to fail or wear out or are subjected to high heat and pressure as in a ICV).

All of the attention is paid by the EV haters to the high end cars like Teslas, but replace the power train with an ICV powertrain and the cost would still be high because these are luxury sport vehicles competing with ICV powered luxury sport vehicles that are also quite expensive.

Apples to apples, oranges to oranges is the only way to compare. On an actual monthly or annual cost of ownership basis, EVs are comparable in cost to ICVs, today.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Duane
August 23, 2022 7:20 am

Consumer reports was evaluating older model electric/ice hybrids (2017 models) in an article the other day, I suppose because the new Inflation Reduction Act bill will offer a $4,500 tax credit for people buying used hybrids.

Consumer Reports came to the conclusion that Toyota was the top-rated used hybrid, and that included all their brand names.

I believe all those hybrids use nickel-metal-hydride batteries which don’t spontaneously combust the way lithium batteries can do. And the NIMH batteries seem to perform quite well.

If you want a used hybrid, Toyota seems to be the place to go.

Bryan A
Reply to  Duane
August 23, 2022 8:03 am

Leaf $27,800 (starting price) 140mi range at optimal conditions
Ionic $40,000 (starting price) 303mi range at optimal conditions
Kona $34,000 (starting price) 250mi range at optimal conditions
MX-30 $33,000 (starting price) 100mi range at optimal conditions
Lower cost suckey range. LOOOONG Refueling times 30min minimum to reach 80% at fast charging station. Hours of potential spontaneous combustability charging at home overnight

Bryan A
Reply to  Bryan A
August 23, 2022 2:03 pm

Then there’s the safety issue if you need to “Bug Out” during a life threatening event like Forest Fire (AKA Wildfire) or Hurricane. A hurricane skirting the coastline might require relocating hundreds of miles inland (Florida Keys to Georgia) and require an EV to recharge hours to continue into the clear. Leaf…forget it, MX-30…toast. You’d make it from Key West to Miami and need to stop for hours to recharge to full, then another stop in West Palm Beach and again in Palm Bay, and Daytona Beach, and Jacksonville just to get to the border of Georgia. Hours upon hours of recharging rather than 1/2 the stops and 15 minutes to refill the gas tank thrice to get to Georgia

MarkW
Reply to  Bryan A
August 23, 2022 6:55 pm

You are forgetting about the problem of having to wait in line before you can even get to the charging unit.

Right now, if there is a line 5 cars deep in front of each pump it’s a pain as each car takes 5 minutes to fill. What will it be like if each car in front of you needs 4 hours to recharge?

Bryan A
Reply to  MarkW
August 24, 2022 7:46 am

You will need to “Bug Out” a week early to allow recharging time and lines at the chargers
Imagine the 25,000 inhabitants of Key West trying to head north together in 25,000 EVs that need recharging every 120 miles. If you have 2 cars, most people will not want to leave 1 behind

Last edited 1 month ago by Bryan A
Steve Reddish
Reply to  Duane
August 23, 2022 8:15 am

Doesn’t the Nissan Leaf available for that price have a smaller battery pack? Won’t that smaller pack’s shorter effective range require recharging more often? Won’t that battery pack reach end of life after fewer miles? I figure the battery pack of a Leaf has 1/2 the lifetime range of a comparably priced ICE vehicle’s engine.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Reddish
August 23, 2022 9:05 am

A regular EV battery has less than half the lifetime range of even a standard IC engine.
The Leaf’s range will be half of that.

Steve Reddish
Reply to  MarkW
August 23, 2022 8:45 pm

A Tesla S undergoing lifetime test by Tesla has reached 300K miles, but it never got quick charged, charging was always from 20%-80%, and driven in CA weather only. So, range comparable to a regular ICE vehicle is possible, but only by the expensive models of Tesla.
I notice Duane didn’t reply…

Steve Reddish
Reply to  Steve Reddish
August 23, 2022 8:56 pm

Um…model 3…

Bryan A
Reply to  Steve Reddish
August 24, 2022 8:42 am

The price of the model S is about $75,000 more than the comparable gasoline powered equivalent. $75,000 will but enough gas to drive 650,000 miles with distance to spare AND you can always Top Off the tank from empty in 5 or 6 minutes

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Reddish
August 24, 2022 12:41 pm

Probably never lead footed it either.
Most, possibly even all cars, even the cheap, ones could last that long if you baby them from day one.

Last edited 1 month ago by MarkW
Bryan A
Reply to  Steve Reddish
August 24, 2022 8:38 am

Yes it does…140 mile range vs 212 mile range … The 212 mile range battery costs about $10,000 more

Pflashgordon
Reply to  Duane
August 23, 2022 9:00 am

More propaganda, Duane. There are not “plenty” of used EVs for sale, and all EVs I see on Autotrader are still >2x the cost of a good used comparable ICE vehicle. Compare new to new or used to used, not apples to oranges. Tesla has luxury sport versions, but they cost >$100K US. An ordinary Tesla 3 is far from what I would call a “luxury” car, unless by luxury you mean beyond the common buyer’s reach.

As stated elsewhere on this thread, EV cost of ownership is decidedly not comparable to an equivalent ICE vehicle, It may seem so when you get government incentives and don’t factor in the coming road taxes, no free charging, and major differences in purchase price, or when you read articles by climate fanatics trying to justify EVs.

For the common man, economical EVs are still in the “someday” (if ever) category, along with nuclear fusion. I have no doubt that someone here can tell a personal anecdote about their economical EV setup, but those are rare circumstances not attainable for the everyday middle-class to lower-income person or family.

I have never seen a poor or minority family driving around in a rusty, beat-up Tesla or other EV with the windows down (AC broken) and one or more LED lamps burnt out (can’t afford to replace them).

MarkW
Reply to  Pflashgordon
August 23, 2022 12:48 pm

If used electrics do come down substantially in price, it will be because people have found out how expensive replacement batteries are,

I read an article a couple of weeks ago about a family that bought their son a used EV, only to have the battery conk out after a few weeks. The replacement battery cost more than they paid for the car.

Bryan A
Reply to  MarkW
August 25, 2022 3:17 pm

Here’s a listing of EVs from Shift.com
https://shift.com/cars?q=Electric

MarkW
Reply to  Duane
August 23, 2022 9:03 am

And up pops Duane pushing the same disproven lies.

Yes there are cheap electrics, but most people aren’t interested in golf carts.
EVs are only cheaper to fuel because the government isn’t taxing electricity the way it taxes gas/diesel. If you think that will stay the case as EVs become more common, you’re delusional.
The claim that EVs are cheaper to maintain has also been refuted by the real world.
The engine in an ICE lasts a lot longer then an EV battery and is much cheaper to replace. Everything else between an ICE and an EV is more or less the same, and because of the heavier weight of the EV, they wear out quicker.

cerescokid
August 23, 2022 5:35 am

Perfect storm? No. Black Swan? No.
Perfectly predictable? Of course. Who didn’t see this one coming.

cerescokid
Reply to  cerescokid
August 23, 2022 5:38 am

Wrong place.

RevJay4
August 23, 2022 6:39 am

Halving the prices of EVs will not help the situation. Still long recharge times, range anxiety, low hauling capacity over long miles, possible fiery immolation while parked or charging or being driven will keep the EV in the background for a long time to come. Not to mention the grid not being able to support a mass switch to EV transportation.
That is the reality. Along with the morons in governments suddenly feeling the heat from the folks who need ICE vehicles to accomplish daily errands, like going to work so they can put food on the table and a roof over the heads of their families. Oh, and pay the politicians salaries via ridiculous taxes which accomplish nothing beneficial for the most part.
There is a wake up call and a facing reality for the greens idiots in the near future.
Just sayin’.

paul courtney
August 23, 2022 7:08 am

Well, the Aussies are not learning from us Yanks. Here, the problem is solved by doubling the price of an ICE vehicle.

ResourceGuy
August 23, 2022 7:23 am

But what if consumers don’t get a choice in the matter? Erasing choice is always a key part of the plan.

Bank Australia Will Stop Offering ICE Vehicle Loans To Speed-Up EV Switch – Auto News

MarkW
August 23, 2022 8:22 am

A subsidized car, plugged into a subsidized solar array, or getting electricity free from the mall.

I wonder if the guy is even a bit grateful to all the hardworking people who are being forced to help pay for his toy?

Doonman
August 23, 2022 8:44 am

or by plugging it into the free shopping mall charger.

Anyone who thinks that electricity is “free” is in for a rude awakening.

MarkW
Reply to  Doonman
August 23, 2022 12:51 pm

Having a free EV charger out front of your store can be considered a form of advertising.
You are advertising that your goods are expensive and only fit for those who are looking for ways to signal their virtue.

Mike Lowe
August 23, 2022 2:37 pm

Not even then would I buy one!

ResourceGuy
August 23, 2022 2:45 pm

The Canadian government earlier Tuesday signed separate agreements with Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz that will see the two German auto manufacturers secure access to Canadian raw materials for batteries in electric vehicles. The agreements include Canadian cobalt, graphite, nickel and lithium.

Canada, Germany aim to start hydrogen shipments in 2025 – ABC News (go.com)

Bob
August 23, 2022 6:46 pm

I can’t think of any reason EV’s should be encouraged. All green endeavors need to start paying their own way, the rest of us are sick of paying for your toys and foolish pipe dreams.

Edward Katz
August 24, 2022 6:39 pm

I was pricing out a few small EVs recently and found that the cost in Canada of the electric version of the Hyundai Kona was almost double that of its gas counterpart. The difference would pay for a lot of fuel and oil changes. Besides, EV advocates talk as though these vehicles will never need new tires, brakes or suspension work. Not only that, but if governments subsidize EVs, it’s a guarantee the manufacturers will keep their prices high. Remove those incentives and we’ll experience what’s already occurred in Georgia, Ontario, Denmark and Hong Kong; i.e. a precipitous sales decline.

UK-Weather Lass
August 25, 2022 1:15 am

“The inflated cost of oil has driven its use out of almost all sectors bar transport, and for that we now have a permanent solution – electric vehicles. Almost one in three new cars in China, the world’s biggest market, [is] now electric. Renewable energy is now the cheapest option in much of the world and could squeeze out gas-fired power stations if vested interests are faced down. Energy-efficiency drives are under way again in many countries, though incomprehensibly not in the UK.”

So writes Damian Carrington for the Guardian which is now one of most rampant sources of misinformation on the planet …

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