Chevy Bolt

GM recall of Chevy Bolts will cost $1.8bn

Reposted from NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT (and HT/Ted P, BobM, and meab)

By Paul Homewood

h/t Tallbloke

GM recall of Chevy Bolts will cost $1.8bn

image

The recall and others raise questions about lithium ion batteries, which now are used in nearly all electric vehicles. Ford, BMW and Hyundai all have recalled batteries recently.

President Joe Biden will need electric vehicles to reach a goal of cutting greenhouse gas emissions in half 2030 as part of a broader effort to fight climate change.

The GM recall announced Friday adds about 73,000 Bolts from the 2019 through 2022 model years to a previous recall of 69,000 older Bolts.

GM said that in rare cases the batteries have two manufacturing defects that can cause fires.

The Detroit-based automaker said it will replace battery modules in all the vehicles. In older versions, all five modules will be replaced.

The latest recall will cost the company about $1 billion, bringing the total cost of the Bolt battery recalls to $1.8 billion.

https://apnews.com/article/technology-joe-biden-business-health-environment-and-nature-bbe51b0c8e644c4448d634fc3c0f3461

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fretslider
August 21, 2021 2:08 pm

Arthur Brown still gets around…

Tom in Florida
Reply to  fretslider
August 21, 2021 2:34 pm

That’s a crazy world!

Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 21, 2021 2:44 pm

Set on fire

beng135
Reply to  Tom in Florida
August 25, 2021 2:20 am

It’s a crazy and rather dangerous looking video too.
https://youtu.be/en1uwIzI3SE

dk_
August 21, 2021 2:08 pm

A prediction: the correction of the “Manufacturing defect” will result in greatly reduced range, greater weight, and reduction in measured service life.

Last edited 1 month ago by dk_
Reply to  dk_
August 21, 2021 2:19 pm

“...greatly reduced range,…

The remedy for Bolt owners until GM can replace the battery:

1. Set your vehicle to a 90 percent state of charge limitation using Hilltop Reserve mode (for 2017-2018 model years) or Target Charge Level (for 2019-2022 model year) mode. Instructions on how to do this are available in the video below. If you are unable to successfully make these changes, or do not feel comfortable making these changes, GM is asking you to visit your dealer to have these adjustments completed.

2. Charge your vehicle more frequently and avoid depleting your battery below approximately 70 miles (113 kilometers) of remaining range, where possible.

3. Park your vehicle outside immediately after charging and do not leave your vehicle charging indoors overnight.

ref: https://my.chevrolet.com/how-to-support/safety/boltevrecall

Go Climate Woke, Go Broke.

Kenji
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
August 21, 2021 2:29 pm

Well … at least you won’t have to pay the $16,250.00 MSRP for a replacement Bolt battery …

Get woke, don’t choke … good luck

Willem post
Reply to  Kenji
August 23, 2021 6:03 am

We all pay for screwups.
There is no free lunch

Janice Moore
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
August 21, 2021 3:23 pm

The remedy for Bolt owners[:

buy an ICE vehicle.

RickWill
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 21, 2021 4:24 pm

So simple it is funny!

Janice Moore
Reply to  RickWill
August 21, 2021 4:37 pm

🙂

ATheoK
Reply to  RickWill
August 22, 2021 7:55 pm

Glad to Janice visiting. Her sarcasm has improved, too.

Janice Moore
Reply to  ATheoK
August 23, 2021 9:52 am

Hi, Theo 🙂

Good to see you, too.

And, btw, wasn’t being sarcastic above.

Further, not only are ICE’s vastly superior technology,

ICE’s = FREEDOM.

EV’s (for the most part) = tyranny of Big Government.

Take care,

Janice

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
August 21, 2021 4:42 pm

DECARBONIZE OR DIE

Reply to  Carlo, Monte
August 21, 2021 4:55 pm

Misinformation

OweninGA
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
August 21, 2021 6:11 pm

Decarbonize or and die. FIFY

LdB
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
August 21, 2021 7:41 pm

Bring out you dead.
I am not dead yet.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  LdB
August 23, 2021 1:36 pm

Pay someone else to bring out their dead and get credit for it.

Sara
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
August 22, 2021 5:10 am

I think that was meant as a joke.

wadesworld
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
August 21, 2021 9:45 pm

So in other words – charge your battery during the day when you need to use the car?

Brilliant….

PCman999
Reply to  wadesworld
August 21, 2021 10:19 pm

It never said that. They don’t want you to charge it overnight INDOORS because if it caught fire it could burn your house down. Better that they worded it ‘charge your car outdoors’ and left it at that.

ATheoK
Reply to  PCman999
August 22, 2021 7:56 pm

It’d definitely fill your house with toxic smoke.

Willem post
Reply to  ATheoK
August 23, 2021 6:04 am

For three days, while the fire department is trying to put out the fire.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  Willem post
August 23, 2021 2:57 pm

They CAN’T put out the fire. Not possible. All they can do is stand around and watch, to make sure it doesn’t set anything else on fire, and wait for the fire to burn itself out.

beng135
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
August 25, 2021 2:21 am

Go Climate Lie, Go Die

Kenji
Reply to  dk_
August 21, 2021 2:25 pm

No problem … the EPA will simply *ahem* “adjust” or “smooth” the official Range data to offset the loss.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Kenji
August 21, 2021 3:28 pm

Wouldn’t it make sense to homogenize the range value by taking into account neighbors’ ICE car ranges? Or maybe just adjust down the neighboring ICE car ranges?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Kenji
August 21, 2021 6:26 pm

If I owned such a vehicle, I would want to know what MY car and MY battery were capable of, especially for a trip where re-charging might be problematic.

While I suppose one can expect an ICE vehicle to get reduced gas mileage after about 100,000 miles, I suspect that the Li-Ion batteries will degrade slowly from day one and therefore the range will continue to decrease until such time as the battery has to be replaced.

jimH in CA
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
August 21, 2021 8:29 pm

An ICE vehicle won’t necessarily get lower fuel economy as it ‘ages’.
A well maintained newer car can maintain it’s new MPG past 200,000 miles.
I have a ’97 Chevy Cavalier, 5 speed with 220,000 miles on it, that still gets 30 mpg around town and gets 40+ mpg on the fwy at 75 mph.
I am using low rolling resistance Michelins vs the original ‘crappy’ tires.
The engine also passes the CA smog check with 0.0% co, and 5 ppm hc.; as good as when new.

Editor
August 21, 2021 2:10 pm

Nelson: Ha Ha!!

Regards,
Bob

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Bob Tisdale
August 21, 2021 3:21 pm

Hi, Bob.

Pariah Dog
Reply to  Bob Tisdale
August 22, 2021 9:28 am

Dammit, you beat me to it.

August 21, 2021 2:10 pm

I’m shocked. Shocked I say.

Go Climate Woke, Go Broke.

August 21, 2021 2:19 pm

Schadenfreude for Government Motors.

dk_
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 21, 2021 3:09 pm

Waiting for the mass Tesla recall. The “manufacturing defect” is the use of lithium batteries without sufficient thermal protection — a conceptual design flaw common to all of the EVs. This is one likely reason that Tesla switched from emphasizing battery sales in EVs to the equally ill conceived grid storage, as well as why it made more sense to use an old prototype roadster for a space booster test throw weight than to replace the battery pack.

Reply to  dk_
August 21, 2021 3:21 pm

From what I know of the chemistry of batteries, any high energy density battery will have the same sort of problem. Perhaps someone could come up with something less toxic than lithium, but an energy dense battery is prone to deflagration if not explosion.

Scissor
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 21, 2021 4:36 pm

And surprisingly, electrons hardly weigh anything at all.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Scissor
August 21, 2021 5:14 pm

And surprisingly, electrons hardly weigh anything at all.

It’s all those pesky things like atoms that they insist on hanging around. Free the electrons!

ATheoK
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
August 22, 2021 8:02 pm

Not on your life! I like them just fine where they are.

jimH in CA
Reply to  Scissor
August 21, 2021 8:31 pm

+1,000 !

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 21, 2021 6:17 pm

Mainly transition metals impurities, particularly iron caused heating in early batteries. Tighter specs cured that problem.

The large tonnage usage for autos and back up storage might mean even tighter specs are required, or that global Li chemicals are not sufficiently standardized across the industry.

Only little more than a decade ago specs for Li-carbonate were 95%+ with restrictions on key elemental impurities.ĺ
Getting rid of Mg and Na proved difficult, especially from brine sources which had to sell their product to intermediaries for upgrading. Today 99.99+ is possible directly at reasonable cost, especially from hardrock sources.

ATheoK
Reply to  Tom Halla
August 22, 2021 8:01 pm

but an energy dense battery is prone to deflagration if not explosion”

Not that I’ve heard about.
I’ve had batteries explode back in the bad old generator and voltage regulator days, but never burn.

NiCd batteries may cause their plastic casings to melt, did you mean them?

Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 21, 2021 2:21 pm

Not a lot of EVs in Portugal at this point but one of the large shopping malls just turned a full aisle of parking spaces underground into EV charging bays. Parking is at a premium underground and worse now with all these spaces gone. Plus, if one of these things should catch fire it will be a big mess. It would have been a lot smarter to install the charging bays up on the outside, open-air, parking. So far, have only seen two EVs charging….

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 21, 2021 2:45 pm

One would almost imagine that there is a market for fake charging ports you can add to your car to use these parking spaces…

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
August 22, 2021 1:49 am

Alas, the electricity is metered so not free parking. Next time I am there I’ll check the cost.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 21, 2021 3:29 pm

Yes, a BIG mess.

“…the Bavarian town of Kulmbach has just banned electric and hybrid vehicles from parking inside parking garages because their batteries are so difficult to extinguish when fire starts.”

February, 2021

(Source: https://notrickszone.com/2021/02/16/vw-hybrid-car-explodes-bursts-into-flames-22-fire-brigades-to-extinguish-hazardous-battery-fire/ )

MAL
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 21, 2021 3:39 pm

I guess detach garages will become the rage far away existing structures so when the catch fire the fire departments can stand back and watch them burn. Oh Bavarian town, my guess you don’t have the space for that.

ATheoK
Reply to  MAL
August 22, 2021 8:07 pm

Disposable detached garages…

Scissor
Reply to  Janice Moore
August 21, 2021 4:40 pm

Smart people around there, and they know how to brew gut bier.

RickWill
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 21, 2021 4:29 pm

You should point out this obvious problem to the store owners.

The Australian Standard for domestic battery installation prohibits batteries being installed beneath living spaces.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 21, 2021 4:45 pm

And of course, those two don’t have to pay anything for charging, its free energy.

Kenji
August 21, 2021 2:22 pm

“Who Killed The Electric Car?”

it was a suicide. Aided and abetted by Red Chinese battery factory employed by LG (South Korea) … Chevy’s battery supplier

ATheoK
Reply to  Kenji
August 22, 2021 8:13 pm

Funny idea to call cars sold by the manufacturers before they are long term viable, sooeecides.

The manufacturers should be charged with culpable vehicular slaughter. People who bought them share some responsibility, too.

Rob_Dawg
August 21, 2021 2:23 pm

That’s more than $12,000 per for a vehicle with an MSRP of $32-35k.

Drake
Reply to  Rob_Dawg
August 21, 2021 2:41 pm

But all the clowns who bought the first couple of years of production get NEW batteries for free, probably at the time they were seeing loss of range. Lucky them.

ATheoK
Reply to  Drake
August 22, 2021 8:15 pm

Perhaps.
I’ve always been convinced that dealers always make their money back. Freebies from the dealers is always oxymoronic.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Rob_Dawg
August 21, 2021 2:45 pm

About correct. Just checked. The current list price for a complete Bolt replacement battery is about $15,700, plus labor at about $800.

Bryan A
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 8:01 pm

Just about right…
1,000,000,000/73,000 = approx $13,600

Last edited 1 month ago by Bryan A
Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 22, 2021 1:54 am

Wow, $800 labor to install a battery, something most people can do themselves in a real car. As some of the costs associated with these toys are revealed people may start to wise up and just say no….

Richard Page
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 22, 2021 9:04 am

I think that in a lot of these things you actually have to remove most of the interior and lift the floor panels up. I don’t think I’ll see a useable electric car in my lifetime.

Willem post
Reply to  Rob_Dawg
August 23, 2021 6:10 am

The total Bolt sales for SIX YEARS.
Are you kidding me?
No wonder!

Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 2:26 pm

I read further. The two defects are highly non-trivial, and both involve automated pouch cell assembly rather than the batteries made from them. (Bolt batteries are comprised of pouch cells, unlike Tesla.) Folded anode tab (can dead cell, causing adjacent cells to overcharge, then repeated overcharging can mean live cell kablooey), and misaligned separator (can short). Latter worse than former, since enables growth of metallic cathode ‘whiskers’ which will eventually for sure short to anode when long enough and big enough, causing kablooey. The ceramic nanoparticle coated LG Chem separator GM uses is precisely to mechanically hard stop whisker/separator puncture potential. Stunning QC manufacturing failures.

And since the 5 Bolt battery modules basically cover the entire vehicle floorpan, very non trivial to access and replace.

rbabcock
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 3:36 pm

“kablooey” isn’t in the urban dictionary (yet).

Rob_Dawg
Reply to  rbabcock
August 22, 2021 3:02 pm

Au contraire. “Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie” has been since 1988 a giant among illustrated literature.

Mr.
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 4:20 pm

So, kinda like –
“Trouble at mill.
One-arm flay rod gone askew on treadle”
?

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Mr.
August 21, 2021 6:37 pm

“One o’ the cross beams gone out o’ skew on treadle.”

is the correct line 😉

Mr.
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
August 21, 2021 7:33 pm

Slight variations from performance to performance.

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
August 22, 2021 12:33 am

“Nobody expects the brigadas de bomberos!”

August 21, 2021 2:30 pm

Wouldn’t it be fun if EVs and grid scale batteries all got safety regulated out of economic existence like they did to nuclear power.

Spetzer86
Reply to  David Wojick
August 21, 2021 2:38 pm

Since one recommendation for old EV batteries was to use them to build grid power reserves, kill the first and get the second as well.

Thomas E.
August 21, 2021 2:31 pm

What I missed what the part where they have recycling programs set up for the batteries they are pulling out of the cars.

bill Johnston
Reply to  Thomas E.
August 21, 2021 4:21 pm

Probably right next to the blades from those end-of-life wind mill blades.

Lrp
Reply to  bill Johnston
August 22, 2021 1:09 am

Which is just a few steps away from solar panels recycling station

Richard Page
Reply to  bill Johnston
August 22, 2021 9:11 am

I think I saw an article somewhere that seriously suggested carbon fibre turbine blades should be ‘recycled’ into wakeboards or snowboards. I want to know who these idiots are that think we are just crying out for more wakeboards.

Gunga Din
Reply to  Thomas E.
August 22, 2021 5:22 am

Maybe they should build a battery-burning power plants as backups for wind and solar?

August 21, 2021 2:36 pm

Imagine an EV battery fire at 2am in the crowded basement parking garage of an apartment building with the fire surrounded by full gas tanks and no one around. That scenario should drive the safety regs.

Very funny that the chemical hating greens should be pushing chemical energy really hard. Nasty stuff.

Reply to  David Wojick
August 21, 2021 2:47 pm

In the fiture the one or the other hydrogen car around……

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Krishna Gans
August 21, 2021 3:25 pm

Fun to watch!

RickWill
Reply to  jorgekafkazar
August 21, 2021 4:43 pm

From a good distance.

MAL
Reply to  Krishna Gans
August 21, 2021 3:41 pm

Outdoors a hydrogen fire is most harmless(hydrogen floats up) indoors a mess.

RickWill
Reply to  MAL
August 21, 2021 4:46 pm

Mess – probably understates the devastation. The mess might look more like a chain reaction that gathers pace.

It has been a long road to develop fuel tanks for ICE vehicles that rarely explode on impact.

betapug
Reply to  David Wojick
August 21, 2021 2:54 pm

The Tesla owners manual instructions for crash first responders to “cut the 450volt cable”….in two places makes fun reading as does fire fighting instructions to submerge the entire vehicle in water or otherwise call hazmat team, cordon of the area, allow it to burn out (may reignite several times). No wonder Teslas target flashing lights on emergency vehicles when in robot driven mode. People want to hurt them. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/18/thirty-tesla-crashes-linked-to-assisted-driving-system-under-investigation-in-us

wadesworld
Reply to  betapug
August 21, 2021 9:52 pm

Fire departments are going to have to start including a utility company lineman in their crews.

TonyG
Reply to  betapug
August 22, 2021 9:23 am

Yeah, I’m not getting anywhere near that cable.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  David Wojick
August 21, 2021 3:32 pm

I had a green tell me salt wasn’t a chemical. I had another tell me that rattlesnakes never bite people. They’re not anti-chemical; they’re anti-fact.

MAL
Reply to  jorgekafkazar
August 21, 2021 3:45 pm

I had a green tell me a snake had a right to life as much as I do. That occurred when I told him any rattlesnake snake in my yard is a dead snake. I also told him rattlesnakes in the wild I leave alone(from someone how almost stepped on a Mohave in the wild.)

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  MAL
August 21, 2021 5:22 pm

I also told him rattlesnakes in the wild I leave

It’s a good idea to leave pretty much everything alone in the wild, but especially dangerous things. In Australia they are not only in the wild, but in our gardens and houses quite often. In my house I’ll kill it. In my garden and the wikd (same thing really) I have a pretty strict rule: if it’s running/slithering/crawling/swimming/flying away from me, leave it alone. If it’s coming towards me, kill it.

Last edited 1 month ago by Zig Zag Wanderer
Clyde Spencer
Reply to  MAL
August 21, 2021 6:49 pm

I have a different approach. If they rattle, I leave them alone. If I spot them and they don’t rattle, I dispatch them and then cook them like fried chicken.

There seems to be some thought that most people will terminate a rattlesnake if they are aware of its presence, usually from rattling. Thus, there is evolutionary pressure weeding out the ones prone to rattle. I’m trying to reverse the evolutionary pressure by only weeding out the ones that don’t warn of their presence. Although, I certainly wouldn’t want them hanging around my house!

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  jorgekafkazar
August 21, 2021 6:41 pm

Like lightning, a rattlesnake never bites the same spot twice — if you hang around, they will work their way up your leg.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
August 22, 2021 8:49 pm

Dogs who can bite higher than my knee are not welcome to stay.

niceguy
Reply to  David Wojick
August 21, 2021 9:53 pm

Tech hating greens prevented the building of a Starlink ground station in Saint-Senier-de-Beuvron: they (allegedly, the town habitants, but really, François Dufour and Benoît Hamard the greens) want a moratorium, a radio wave study, a ground study (whatever that is)!
“(Starlink radome building in my village) is a violence against inhabitants and democracy”

So building 5 small radomes is treated like an American agression (Musk is a billionaire so… I don’t see the relevance but the factoid is mentioned in each and every article) but huge wind turbines and electric cars are 100% fine…

PCman999
Reply to  niceguy
August 21, 2021 10:34 pm

Greens, environmentalists, socialists, etc., depend on feeding people’s natural tendencies toward jealousy and envy.

niceguy
Reply to  PCman999
August 22, 2021 6:27 am

In that case, not just envy. Pure indifference for others.

One opponent had that killer argument (rephrased, exact meaning kept, no reinterpretation):

We already have good Internet connectivity here so we don’t need the teleport.

EDIT:
The other argument (that I almost forgot):

They want to put the Earth in a fishnet stockings.

Last edited 1 month ago by niceguy
Mr.
August 21, 2021 2:40 pm

They could replace the batteries with WW2 era coal burners.

At least that way nobody is going to be alarmed at the first signs of smoke and flames emanating from their conveyance.

Mr.
Reply to  Mr.
August 21, 2021 2:43 pm

Neat, hey?

coal burner.jpg
Notanacademic
Reply to  Mr.
August 21, 2021 4:36 pm

Very neat but does it have cup holders 🤪

Mr.
Reply to  Notanacademic
August 21, 2021 5:49 pm

D cup holders I believe.
(aka warm hands)

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Mr.
August 21, 2021 6:51 pm

Does it come with ABS brakes and GPS?

Mr.
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
August 21, 2021 7:34 pm

No, but you can have any color.
(as long it is black)

LdB
Reply to  Mr.
August 21, 2021 7:42 pm

Eco chick magnet 🙂

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Mr.
August 22, 2021 12:04 am

Gas bag cars. Despite top heavy appearance a full bag doesn’t weigh a lot. With a home methane plant who needs gasoline?

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/11/gas-bag-vehicles.html

Disputin
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
August 22, 2021 2:23 am

With a home methane plant who needs gasoline?

You could even have a mobile methane plant. Just eat plenty of beans…

August 21, 2021 2:43 pm

Everyone putting a lot of money on the table for an electric car and is now victim of a recall like these doesn’t deserve better.
The complete systems of batteries isn’t technically mature and only pushed, by gouvernements and car constructors, to follow an insane green agenda without any value.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Krishna Gans
August 21, 2021 2:54 pm

There isn’t enough global lithium resource at even double present prices, nor cobalt resource at any price, to enable the enfeebled Biden goals just for the US. And Biden just lost Afghanistan’s lithium resource (pegmatite spodumene) to the Taliban, who for sure aren’t green.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 2:59 pm

The use of pocket-calculators is absolutely overwightetd.

Larry in Texas
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 3:16 pm

I will NEVER buy an all-electric vehicle, at least not while they have these low-range, highly dangerous lithium-ion batteries. Joe Biden will have to pry my current vehicle, a 2016 Ford Fusion hybrid, from my cold dead hands.

MAL
Reply to  Larry in Texas
August 21, 2021 3:47 pm

Ford Fusion hybrid, from my cold dead hands.” does not that vehicle have lithium batteries also? Just asking?

CD in Wisconsin
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 4:38 pm

“And Biden just lost Afghanistan’s lithium resource (pegmatite spodumene) to the Taliban, who for sure aren’t green.”

Don’t look now Rud, but China already has it’s eyes on Afghanistan’s lithium and other rare earth deposits….

https://tinyurl.com/wxuh4b92

China is already working to build a cozy relationship with the Taliban. Mining all those REEs could put a lot of money into the Taliban’s hands, just what the West does not need.

Janice Moore
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
August 21, 2021 6:02 pm

And who is China’s buddy? “The Big Guy.” **

** Hunter Biden email refers to Biden as “the big guy” who is to get a % from Chinese company. ([Edit: scroll down in this article for that fact: ]https://www.westernjournal.com/fact-check-biden-unleashes-whopper-covid-vaccinations-cnn-town-hall/ )

Last edited 1 month ago by Janice Moore
Clyde Spencer
Reply to  CD in Wisconsin
August 21, 2021 6:54 pm

Are you suggesting that the Taliban are tolerant of Confucians and Buddhists?
Aren’t they infidels too?

hiskorr
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
August 21, 2021 7:23 pm

Every bit as tolerant of infidels as the Chinese are of Uighurs. A match made in he!!.

mike macray
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
August 22, 2021 8:57 am

….Are you suggesting that the Taliban are tolerant of Confucians and Buddhists?
Aren’t they infidels too?

My enemy’s enemy is my friend…. even Joseph Stalin was “Good ole Joe” from June 1941 to late 1945! Having defeated every Imperial power from Alexander the Great to Uncle Sam, it will be interesting to see how China fares…. I suspect they won’t try to beat them into submission, rather they will let them remain a bunch of warring tribes separated by a common religeon while they plunder the country with a smile…kind of like they are reclaiming eastern Siberia.. Sun Su style you might say.
Cheers
Mike

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
August 22, 2021 5:40 pm

Not only does it not bother the Taliban that the Chicoms are infidels, the Taliban have actually signed off on the Chicom torture and k!lling of Muslim minorities in China. Pakistan has also signed off on the Chicom atrocities.

Apparently, if you are a Chinese Muslim, you don’t count in the Middle East.

AndyHce
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 21, 2021 8:17 pm

But if they can make enough profit, who know what may be revolutionized.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 23, 2021 2:18 pm

Lots of Li Rud. The Manono and Kitolo pegmaties in SE DR Congo are each up to 500m across and 5km long. A couple of recent drill holes across bands of mineralized pegmatite exposed at surfaceup to 300m across, gave a geological estimate of a billion tonnes grading~2% Li2O which is about
10,000,000MT of Li. This project makes the sum total from all presently operating projects only a rounding error.

In 2000, there were only half a dozen producers. In 2017, there were 400 projects being evaluated.

I visited the small operations in Portugal and Brazil 2017 and 2018 and found that despite a century of mining, they were only pitting the surface (ceramic companies). Recent drilling has multiplied resources more than 100-fold in Portugal and will be doing the same in Brazil. Also I worked on a plan for an EU Li-integrated mine to batteries using recently discovered deposits in Sweden, Finland, Portugal and Austria.

I am a consultant to competitors in DR Congo who own a prospective 40sqkm of land around and on strike with Manono and Kitolo (look for elephants in elephant country).

They also secured ~80millionMT of Li bearing tailings from 60yrs of mining Manono-Kitolo pematites only for tin, discarding the spodumene – Li. The chain of piles is a 10km long topographic high in the region.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Krishna Gans
August 21, 2021 3:38 pm

I don’t care about stupid people victimizing themselves with green pipe-dreams. What I resent is being held at gunpoint to take subsidies from my pockets.

Michael Jankowski
August 21, 2021 2:50 pm

TWO defects that could cause fires? Lol.

Good deal financially for owners of older models…provided they don’t DIAF first.

Iain Russell
August 21, 2021 2:55 pm

You’ve gotta laugh, because it makes you laugh!

gringojay
Reply to  Iain Russell
August 21, 2021 3:05 pm

Buyers remorse insurance.

3DE8A515-997C-4D88-A69D-22EBB0D78652.jpeg
Streetcred
Reply to  gringojay
August 21, 2021 4:11 pm

On the back of a diesel truck 🙂

RickWill
Reply to  gringojay
August 21, 2021 4:53 pm

Now that is really funny.

The new opportunity in roadside service is charging capability. I think that is already happening in the UK. Cheaper than getting transported to the charging station.

August 21, 2021 2:59 pm

Weakest link to EV growth is the material supply chain. There may not be enough minerals and metals in the world to achieve the planned EV growth.
With less than 8 million EV’s (of the 2 BILLION vehicles in the world) currently operating on the world’s highways, a Cambridge University study showed that replacing all the United Kingdom’s 32 million light duty vehicles with next-generation EVs would require huge quantities of materials to manufacture 32 million EV batteries. It is becoming more and more obvious as States and Countries jump onto the EV train, that there may be insufficient materials in the world to complete those EV dreams.

https://www.cfact.org/2021/02/15/weakest-link-to-ev-growth-is-the-material-supply-chain/

Reply to  Ronald Stein
August 21, 2021 3:08 pm

Peak EV car materials in sight 😀

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Krishna Gans
August 21, 2021 3:39 pm

We passed peak intelligence a decade or two back.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Krishna Gans
August 21, 2021 7:01 pm

The lesson of Peak Anything is that long before it is essentially exhausted, it will become so expensive as to be uneconomical for the application(s) that drove it to peak production.

Personally, I don’t think that it will be lithium that becomes critical, but rather, cobalt.

Joel Patterson
Reply to  Ronald Stein
August 21, 2021 5:08 pm

There’s enough for it, but we’ll have to really tear up the earth to pieces to get it.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Joel Patterson
August 23, 2021 9:58 am

And we will “tear the earth to pieces” with a little battery-powered this and a little windpowered that. LOL.

Lorne WHITE
Reply to  Ronald Stein
August 22, 2021 6:07 am

Canada has been the world’s miner, and has many of the minerals needed for an “all electricity” era: lithium, cobalt, nickel, copper, iron, vanadium, oil.

However, we’re in process of reconciliation: our First Nation ancestors signed majestic Crown treaties with our Settler ancestors and … were cheated.

Our First Nations hold the spiritual principle of preserving Mother Earth for 7 future generations. Already, one First Nation in Québec, north of the Ottawa River and upstream of our capital Ottawa, has started a Change.org petition to prevent a lithium mine from opening.

Unless Canada can quickly develop
NetZeroPollution of air, water & soil for mining -at much higher cost- don’t expect us to supply many minerals.

jorgekafkazar
August 21, 2021 3:19 pm

I’m not an EV fan, but I regret this loss. A primary objective of society is the creation of wealth, not the confiscation of it, nor the useless frittering away of capital and resources and labor. The latter of which is what has happened here. What’s bad for GM is not good for us as a nation. That money could have been spent to build Hondas or other useful things.

Thomas Gasloli
August 21, 2021 3:20 pm

Oh, the Biden admin will just toss another couple billion into the “infrastructure” bill to bail out GM, America’s biggest welfare queen.

Rich Davis
Reply to  Thomas Gasloli
August 21, 2021 3:45 pm

Yes, I am certain that we are paying this bill at some point, probably sooner than later.

bill Johnston
Reply to  Rich Davis
August 21, 2021 4:31 pm

among many others!

MAL
Reply to  Thomas Gasloli
August 21, 2021 3:48 pm

Likely to happen.

PaulH
August 21, 2021 3:42 pm

Back the 1980’s, my first car was a used Chevy Monza. I’ve avoided GM products ever since.

H B
August 21, 2021 3:44 pm

At what point does GM pull the plug on electric vehicles (pun intended)

MarkW
Reply to  H B
August 22, 2021 7:44 am

When the subsidies run out.

joe
August 21, 2021 3:44 pm

I was actually happy after I saw this report on another site…Does that make me a bad person? LOL

August 21, 2021 4:50 pm

A back of the envelope analysis of the bolt battery follows:

Bolt Capacity 65 kWh
2 gallons of gasoline 66 kWh.
1000 recharge lifetime = 2000 gallons of gasoline
2000 gallons of gas = $6000.
Bolt battery $15000

65 kWh = $6.50 @ 10 cents kwh
1000 charges = $6500

Conclusion. The bolt battery costs more than double the value of all the energy it can store in its lifetime.

Forget about using EVs as grid storage. The reduction in battery life is greater cost than value of electricity.

Reply to  Ferdberple
August 21, 2021 5:02 pm

The bolt EV works out about the same as an ICE bolt with a 4 gallon gas tank spayed with $10k of gold leaf that slowly peels off each time you drive the car.

mobihci
Reply to  Ferdberple
August 21, 2021 5:14 pm

yep, and the fuel inlet is a tiny straw that forces you to drip the fuel into the tank when refilling.

Nick B
Reply to  Ferdberple
August 21, 2021 6:05 pm

That is very easy to fix, just increase electricity price.

AndyHce
Reply to  Ferdberple
August 21, 2021 8:22 pm

So what does THAT matter in the Green Dream.

Dennis
August 21, 2021 4:51 pm

Henry Ford would be amused.

George Daddis
Reply to  Dennis
August 22, 2021 7:59 am

Henry and Tom Edison were EV fans.
Of course the battery was the sticking point and Edison’s battery venture was a huge economic failure.

August 21, 2021 5:23 pm

The bolt battery is 65 kWh. Your standard househould plug is about 1.8 kW max. So you are looking at 1.5 days min to fully charge on your heavy duty extension cord run outside.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Ferdberple
August 22, 2021 12:31 am

In the UK normal socket rated at 13A and ~240V giving approximately 3kW. So 20% to80% charge would take 17 hours. Effectively all day Sunday for a 15-20 mile commute to work with nothing spare.

Probably OK for most areas in England but anywhere rural in UK or outside big cities in Europe it means at least one midweek charge.

My work commute was 25 imperial miles a day. My diesel Citroën Xantia, the most comfortable car I’ve ever driven and had 4 over the years, could do that on a full tank a month, with some to spare.

When I’m out on my bike in the morning before the local commute gets underway I pass a number of Teslas on drives most are being charged. I cycle a scenic route to a local shop for croissants and bread for breakfast and lunch. A habit from living in France where a baguette lasted about 6 hours. The UK croissants are fine but baguettes not so much.

Rasa
August 21, 2021 5:41 pm

A battery is just a very expensive and complicated and inefficient alternative to a gas/diesel tank. The battery cannot store as much energy as a gas tank. It is not as safe as a gas tank and takes a lot longer to fill. I mean after the third click at the bowser your tank is full and good for hundreds or thousands of miles. Depending on how big/how many tanks you have and how many Jerry cans you want to carry.
A battery seems an expensive and dumb arse replacement for a steel gas tank?

Gary Pearse
August 21, 2021 5:43 pm

After the laptop that caught fire on board an aircraft a number of years ago, Li battery chemicals’ specifications (Li2 CO3 and LiOH•H2O – the latter now preferred) from manufacturers drastically reduced impurities including Fe2O3 and other transition elements (middle block of metals in the central part of Mendeleev Table of Elements) as well as sulphur, chlorine, sodium, Boron, etc.

I was engaged as a mineral processing and extractive metallurgy consultant by a large Li mining and chemical company and developed a patented process for low-cost ultra-pure Li -chemicals (4-9s, i.e 99.99+ pure – old specs were 95+% pure with limits on specific elemental impurities).

I visited Li- chemical plants in China and wasn’t impressed by the processing, chemical extraction or industrial ‘hygiene’ I saw. I hope they upgraded the process!

I’m not sure that Tesla, and other auto companies analyze to ensure specs are met. I hope so.

August 21, 2021 5:47 pm

yep, and the fuel inlet is a tiny straw
======
A standard gas pump is rated 10 gal/min or 600 gal/hr. That is 19800 kW. A standard 100 A/240V household supply is max 24 kW.

So your average gas pump delivers the same amount of energy as about 800 houses at maximum draw. But there is no way the power company could supply everyone at maximum draw.

What that means is we are going to need a whole lot of EV charge points and generating capacity to replace each gas pump.

August 21, 2021 5:54 pm

A standard gas pump is rated 10 gal/min or 600 gal/hr. That is 19800 kW. A standard 100 A/240V household supply is max 24 kW.
=====
Pls check my math. If correct we don’t have a snowballs chance in hell of replacing fossil fuels with electricity.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Ferdberple
August 21, 2021 7:15 pm

Don’t tell Biden! He might get depressed (until he forgets) and go out and buy another ice cream cone.

I wonder if the MSM will ever realize what they have done to the country, and to themselves!

Richard Page
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
August 22, 2021 9:21 am

I wonder if the MSM actually cares what they’ve done.

Disputin
Reply to  Ferdberple
August 22, 2021 2:39 am

A standard gas pump is rated 10 gal/min or 600 gal/hr

Are you sure? That seems very low. It sounds as if that is the pump in the car, i.e. from the tank to the injectors. I’m sure the pumps into the car are much faster.

Reply to  Disputin
August 22, 2021 9:12 am

My research said the pumps can do more but are rated 10 g/m. Commercial pumps are 4x faster.

Our motor home holds 80 gals and 8 mins is probably a bit long. Hard to tell because the credit card has to be run thru 2x or more due to $$ limits. 500 mile range with 4wd truck in tow. Try that on batteries. the battery would weigh more than the 4wd truck and cost more than the MH..

In any case the gas pump absolutely dwarfs the maximum power you can draw via your 100A main breaker to the house.

Even in 200A rated monster houses.

Tim F Hackett
August 21, 2021 7:03 pm

Would it kill them to go back to building actual CARS, instead of Woke Showboats?

H.R.
August 21, 2021 8:09 pm

$1.8 billion, eh? In layman terms… oops.

Patrick MJD
August 21, 2021 11:04 pm

The Bolt is not a great example of an EV by design. The chassis was “re-tooled” to accept a battery and motor. It was not a ground-up design. When I read about it a few of years ago my thoughts were “This will fail!”

michel
August 22, 2021 1:07 am

Much as I would love to see ICE engines got out of cities, and much as I would like to see the streets returned to people to walk and bike in, I am coming to the conclusion that wholesale conversion to electric probably is not going to work.

You have the obvious aspects, the cost, the difficulty of recycling batteries, even getting enough batteries to start with, the shortage of generating capacity to recharge them.

But a much more serious problem that is only now starting to emerge is the side-effect of having huge numbers of highly charged batteries on the streets and in garages all over the country. Gasoline is intrinsically dangerous and explosive, but we have found procedures to handle it safely. Spontaneous combustion from either parked cars or cars being refuelled is vanishingly rare.

It is turning out that lithium batteries are a whole different story. Either while being charged or when being driven or when simply parked there are disturbingly many instances of combustion. And these are not just fires like any other, they seem to be extremely hot and extremely difficult to put out.

The number of cases in relation to the current tiny installed base is quite alarming. You have to imagine there to be as many electric vehicles as there are now ICE ones, and then extrapolate the number of such serious and unquenchable fires.

This is not going to work the way everyone thinks. Of course its not going to have any effect on global CO2 emissions or on global warming either. But that may be the least of our worried when we really get started on the progam.

August 22, 2021 2:18 am

Western democracies appear to be gung-ho about using their populations as testers (victims) for each government (and their crony capitalist mates), who wish to foist on their gullible (and often innocent) populous whatever ‘white-heat of technology’ is currently in fashion.
So why have cost-benefit assessments? — they’re unnecessary when there are so many gullibles willing to be testers by uncritically swallowing the government’s & manufacture’s line? 
Are the privileged top echelon groups partaking in such dangerous experiments?

Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 22, 2021 2:27 am

I hope this is not a stupid question, but what other uses do we have for lithium apart from EV batteries and other kinds of batteries? Cobalt is used to make a beautiful blue (called cobalt blue) in ceramic glazes. Pretty much every blue patterned plate, cup, or gravy boat in existence owes its pretty colour to cobalt. The cost of cobalt has always been high but the price has gone up considerably recently.

Is lithium useful for anything else? If so, are there any alternatives to lithium that serve as well?

Are we on a path that will take away a lot of useful items and our blue ceramics just to make silly EV cars?

Gunga Din
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
August 22, 2021 6:00 am

Here are some from this site: https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/3/lithium

Uses
The most important use of lithium is in rechargeable batteries for mobile phones, laptops, digital cameras and electric vehicles. Lithium is also used in some non-rechargeable batteries for things like heart pacemakers, toys and clocks.

Lithium metal is made into alloys with aluminium and magnesium, improving their strength and making them lighter. A magnesium-lithium alloy is used for armour plating. Aluminium-lithium alloys are used in aircraft, bicycle frames and high-speed trains.

Lithium oxide is used in special glasses and glass ceramics. Lithium chloride is one of the most hygroscopic materials known, and is used in air conditioning and industrial drying systems (as is lithium bromide). Lithium stearate is used as an all-purpose and high-temperature lubricant. Lithium carbonate is used in drugs to treat manic depression, although its action on the brain is still not fully understood. Lithium hydride is used as a means of storing hydrogen for use as a fuel.

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  Gunga Din
August 22, 2021 6:20 am

Thank you! In other words, there are probably a lot better uses for our lithium than wasting it in EV batteries. You can make a lot if tiny batteries for mobiles, laptops, and cameras with the lithium in a single EV battery and a lot less chance of it catching fire.

Sara
August 22, 2021 5:19 am

I stopped letting a car own me a while back and just rent one as my personal servant. Much more satisfying and I get to “test drive” all sorts of wickerbill vehicles this way.

While I’m impressed with the improved MPG I get from these newer vehicles and their “engines”, I’m not impressed by the squidgy, teensy-weensy fuel tank. The trade-off is that at $3.439/gallon for low-level gas (octane 84 or “regular”), it costs about the same to fill the peenchy-weenchy tank as it did 20 years ago when gas at the pump was $0.749/gallon. Means there is no savings at all in this nonsense.

However, I’ll stay away from the electric cars until they ALL stop having fires.

Ryan
August 22, 2021 5:48 am

I test drove one of those Bolts. They are really, really quiet. Those would be great if you can drive to work and back on one charge to recharge over night. For me, my job is 5 miles away, 10 mile round trip. With working from home and only needing to go into work once every week or so, my tank of gas is lasting me like 3 months. My 14 year old car is rusting out before wearing out.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Ryan
August 22, 2021 6:00 pm

You could do 10 miles a day using lead-acid batteries. I think they are good for about 50 to 100 miles of range, depending on how many are used.

Your situation would be perfect for what I considered doing at one time, which was to convert an older pickup truck to an electric vehicle using lead-acid batteries.

I saw a design where the bed of a pickup truck was configured so it could be raised up like a dump truck does, to about a 45 degree angle, which would give access to a battery pack located between the frame rails of the pickup. You lower the bed back down, and noone would ever know you had batteries underneath the pickup truck bed.

Both Ford and Chevrolet are now offering electric motor swaps for internal combustion engine cars.

So swap in an electric motor, and get an array of lead-acid batteries, and you would have a pretty good short-distance commuter vehicle.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Ryan
August 23, 2021 11:52 am

If the Bolt burns your house down, you may have to live at the office.

willem post
August 22, 2021 7:42 am

THETFORD; July 2, 2021 — A fire destroyed a 2019 Chevy Bolt, 66 kWh battery, EPA range 238 miles, owned by state Rep. Tim Briglin, D-Thetford, Chairman of the House Committee on Energy and Technology.

He had been driving back and forth from Thetford, VT, to Montpelier, VT, with his EV, about 100 miles via I-89
He had parked his 2019 Chevy Bolt on the driveway, throughout the winter, per GM recall of Chevy Bolts
He had plugged his EV into a 240-volt charger.
The battery was at about 10% charge at start of charging, at 8 PM, and he had charged it to 100% charge at 4 AM; 8 hours of charging. See Note

Li-ions (pos.) would plate out on the cathode (neg) each time when charging from 80 to 100%.
Li-ions would plate out on the anode (pos) each time when charging from 10% to 20%, especially when such charging occurred at battery temperatures of 32F or less.

Fire: Firefighters were called to Briglin’s Tucker Hill Road home around 9 AM Thursday. 
Investigators from the Vermont Department of Public Safety Fire and Explosion Investigation Unit determined: 

1) The fire started in a compartment in the back of the passenger’s side of the vehicle
2) It was likely due to an “electrical failure”.

https://www.vnews.com/Firefighters-put-out-blaze-in-car-of-Vt-State-Representative-41272606
https://www.engadget.com/gm-chevy-bolt-fire-warning-215322969.html
https://electrek.co/2020/11/13/gm-recall-chevy-bolt-evs-potential-fire-risk/

GM Recall of Chevy Bolts: In 2020, GM issued a worldwide recall of 68,667 Chevy Bolts, all 2017, 2018 and 2019 models, plus, in 2021, a recall for another 70,000 Bolts, all 2020, 2021, and 2022 models. 
GM set aside $1.8 BILLION to replace battery modules, or 1.8 BILLION/(68,667 + 70,000) = $12,980/EV.

https://insideevs.com/news/524712/chevrolet-bolt-battery-recall-cost/
https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/568817-gm-expands-bolt-ev-recall-to-include-73000-more-vehicles

Owners were advised not to charge them in a garage, and not to leave them unattended while charging, which may take up to 8 hours; what a nuisance! 
Rep. Briglin heeded the GM recall by not charging in his garage.
                                          
NOTE
– Cost of replacing the battery packs of 80,000 Hyundai Konas was estimated at $900 million, about $11,000 per vehicle 
https://insideevs.com/news/492167/reports-lg-chem-cost-hyundai-battery-recall/
– EV batteries should be charged from 20 to 80%, to achieve minimal degradation and long life, plus the charging loss is minimal in that range 
– Charging EVs from 0 to 20% charge, and from 80 to 100% charge, 1) uses more kWh AC from the wall outlet per kWh DC charged into the battery, and 2) is detrimental to the battery. Also, it requires additional kWh for cooling the battery while charging. 
– EV batteries must never be charged, when the battery temperature is less than 32F; if charged anyway, the plating out of Li-ions on the anode would permanently damage the battery. 
https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-does-lithium-ion-battery-work

See section Charging Electric Vehicles During Freezing Conditions in URL
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/some-ne-state-governments-play-deceptive-games-with-co2-emissions

George Daddis
August 22, 2021 7:45 am

Biden’s “..broader effort to fight climate change”
Switching from ICEs to EVs in the US will be as effective in “fighting climate change” as the woke generals were in preventing a Taliban takeover.
At best it is a symbolic gesture and a huge waste of resources.

2hotel9
August 22, 2021 7:48 am

And now Ford has come out with a DIY EV kit. The hits, they just keep coming.

Richard Page
Reply to  2hotel9
August 22, 2021 9:26 am

Does the DIY EV kit come with a container of thermite and a road flare? Or are you expected to wait for it to burn at some random time?

2hotel9
Reply to  Richard Page
August 23, 2021 4:14 am

Oh, it will be so much more fun for them to randomly combust, don’t ya know.

Rich Lambert
Reply to  Richard Page
August 23, 2021 3:05 pm

It comes with a fire alarm.

August 22, 2021 9:27 am

Or motorhome holds 80 gals of gas. The same energy as 40 bolt batteries. Allowing for 2x efficiency (doubtful) at 960 lbs per, that is 19,200 lbs of batteries. At $15k per, that is $300 k worth of batteries.

The MH is 22,000 lbs GVW. 16000 pounds empty. 6000 pounds capacity for fuel, water, supplies., spares, etc.

The maximum rated tow for the MH is 5000 lbs. So I can’t carry the battery nor can I tow it. Which is lucky because the MH retails for less than 1/2 the cost of the batteries.

Last edited 1 month ago by ferdberple
David Stone CEng
August 23, 2021 6:55 am

The overall problem is trying to charge batteries at a very high rate, but the customer wants short charge times! Oh dear, what can we do? Well battery efficiency is the key but we have nothing over about 90%. So chatge at 100kW, waste at 10 kW, very difficult to loose this much so battery gets very hot. Life low, and fires likely! All alternatives to ICE vehicles are doomed, but they won’t listen to the Real Engineers!

ResourceGuy
August 23, 2021 11:46 am

Will cost who $1.8B?

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