Evidence of RWP In Florida

From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT

By Paul Homewood

I recently came across this paper from 2012:

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https://www.academia.edu/19377134/Seasonal_climate_change_across_the_Roman_Warm_Period_Vandal_Minimum_transition_using_isotope_sclerochronology_in_archaeological_shells_and_otoliths_southwest_Florida_USA?email_work_card=view-paper

It suggests that both winters and summers were warmer than now in Florida at certain periods during the RWP.

But what is really interesting is their comment about a falling sea level at the Vandal Minimum transition.

HH Lamb strongly believed that sea levels fell during that period, the Dark Ages, following maybe a metre of rise during the RWP, a rate of rise similar to that of today. Following the fall, seas began to rise again during the MWP.

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HH Lamb: Climate, History & The Modern World

Some modern studies, such as this one which I debunked last month, claim that these variations did not exist and simply assume that the rate of rise prior to the 20thC was unchanged. These are usually based on extremely limited data. The evidence from glaciers alone of colder epochs, such as the Dark Ages and Little Ice Age show such conclusions are worthless.

The work of experts such as Sylvia Hallam has been ignored in favour of computer models and global warming theory. It is good to see another study that prefers real hard data.

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Pamela Matlack-Klein
July 23, 2021 6:11 am

The evidence of former high stands of sea level are everywhere around the world if only one chooses to look.

Mark D
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
July 23, 2021 7:57 am

What is Florida? Geologically, Florida perches on top of what geologists call the “Florida Platform,” a plateau that is mostly underwater. Due to sea-level fluctuations through geologic time, the Florida Platform has both been entirely underwater (during interglacial periods) and entirely above sea-level (during glacial periods). Today, only about one-third of the Florida Platform is above sea-level (Figure 1, top). The current shape of Florida’s coastline is merely a snapshot in geologic time because sea-level is constantly fluctuating with our planet’s climate cycles.”

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/UW208

Last edited 2 months ago by Mark D
Steve Z
Reply to  Mark D
July 23, 2021 10:34 am

An extremely interesting article posted by Mark D above.

If sea levels were much lower during a glacial period, and the Florida peninsula was a few hundred miles wider, it would have been a very attractive place to live for people fleeing glaciated areas of North America (a prehistoric version of today’s snowbirds). There may have been a land bridge between the south end of the current peninsula and Cuba, which may not have been an island.

If sea levels rose above current sea levels during more recent warm periods, and part of Florida was flooded, could this be the origin of some of the Atlantis legends from the time of the ancient Greek civilization?

Despite the recent rise in sea levels (at about 2 to 3 mm per year), considering the price of beach-front real estate in south Florida, there are lots of people who aren’t worried about future sea level rise!

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Z
July 23, 2021 10:57 am

There is no way the ancient Greeks had any knowledge of Florida.

John Tillman
Reply to  Steve Z
July 23, 2021 1:25 pm

No place in the Florida Staits is shallow enough to connect the peninsula with Cuba in the past 2.6 million years, or ever.

http://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.com/i-boating-fishing-web-app/fishing-marine-charts-navigation.html?title=STRAITS+OF+FLORIDA+AND+APPROACHES+boating+app#8/23.512/-80.543

Duane
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
July 23, 2021 8:28 am

Florida, which seems to be one of those places that warmunistas love to point to and shout that we’re all going to be underwater someday, is obvious evidence of that.

The geologic history of Florida shows that we have limestone and “petrified” sand dunes along the top of the Florida Central Ridge, elevation of approx. 200 above current sea level, and the entire peninsula is underlain by a shallow formation of limestone filled with large numbers of sea creatures including shells, showing that the entire peninsula was underwater not that long ago

Similarly, the geologic history of Florida shows that sea levels were once far lower than today’s (by as much as 300+ meters lower), such that the Florida peninsula, now about 100-130 miles wide, was once nearly three times as wide as it is today, extending west nearly to the continental shelf in the Gulf of Mexico.

Indeed, it is for that reason that there are practically no archaeological artifacts found in Florida more than about 5 thousand years old, even though we know that humans occupied virtually the entire American continents as early as 16 to 18 thousand years ago. But prehistoric Floridan aborigines lived mostly along the coastlines, living mainly on seafood (as existing artifacts 5 thousand years old and less indicate, and as verified by early Spanish explorers). The problem is those coastlines were as much as 200 miles west of where they are today back during the last glaciation period. So all those early artifacts more than 5 thousand years BP are now all underwater.

Nottoobrite
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
July 23, 2021 9:15 am

Ignorance rules.u

Mark D
Reply to  Nottoobrite
July 23, 2021 10:54 am

What does this add to the discussion?

John Tillman
Reply to  Nottoobrite
July 23, 2021 1:27 pm

She’s right. You’re not too well informed.

David Kamakaris
Reply to  Nottoobrite
July 23, 2021 2:37 pm

Take a look at a geologic map of the coastal plain of the eastern USA. Let me know what you see and then we’ll talk further.

ATheoK
Reply to  Nottoobrite
July 23, 2021 7:07 pm

No, Pamela is spot on target.

Unfortunately, idiocy and ignorance rule you.

Graemethecat
Reply to  Nottoobrite
July 24, 2021 2:28 pm

You’re well named.

Scissor
July 23, 2021 6:12 am

Apparently, the sun stopped transitioning.

Ron Long
July 23, 2021 6:23 am

The world-wide raising and lowering of sea level is the basis for the part of geology known as “Sequence Stratigraphy”, discovered by EXXON geophysicists and geologists during the early 1970´s. The level of the sea is an excellent marker for the changing climate causing changes in the physical state of water, at least for the liquid versus solid state. It is important to note that these sea level changes have local variations, due to several potential factors, but coordinate at high confidence levels world-wide. So, 50 meters higher and 150 meters lower sea level is the normal range. Try to imagine these changes on coastal areas (at 50 meters lower the Obama’s would sell their beach house?).

Reply to  Ron Long
July 23, 2021 6:47 am

I have a copy of this on my desk…

AAPG Memoir 26, 1977… Close to half of the book consists of papers by Mitchum & Vail.

We’ve been concealing our secret climate science for over 50 years! Exxon knew! Hell, anyone with a geology degree knew… Climate changes… A LOT. As does sea level.

n.n
Reply to  David Middleton
July 23, 2021 12:47 pm

Ah, hydrocarbons. To remember the good old days when scientists would speak clearly and to the point, without the sociopolitical loads common in the modern climate.

Ron Long
Reply to  David Middleton
July 23, 2021 1:36 pm

I have a great idea for you, David. Why don’t you present a synopsis of Sequence Stratigraphy as it relates to sea level? You’re welcome.

John Tillman
Reply to  Ron Long
July 23, 2021 4:42 pm

Ron, who could make that contribution better than thee?

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  Ron Long
July 23, 2021 7:26 am

One thing for sure, their walk to the water or boat dock would be a whole long longer!

Steve Z
Reply to  Ron Long
July 23, 2021 10:40 am

At 50 meters lower, the Obamas would probably buy up the new land and move the house closer to the beach. But for a few meters higher, they would have to hire John Kerry’s Windsurfer and sail to mainland Massachusetts, and the house would be a total loss. The Obamas don’t seem to be terribly worried about it now, since he already stopped the seas from rising (or so he said in 2008).

Richard Page
July 23, 2021 6:41 am

I was just reading a book on the Viking age which quite openly discusses the warmer temperatures, sea level changes and the climate, linking the natural changes to the migrations and colonisation by Scandinavians on other parts of the world. When did we become afraid of discussing this openly? When did the scientific study of the Dark Ages, the RWP and MWP become verboten? And how did scientific discoveries by first rate scientists get overturned by a bunch of 3rd rate failures that couldn’t hack a real degree course but could swing a bit of political clout by screaming “the sky is falling”?

fretslider
Reply to  Richard Page
July 23, 2021 8:01 am

When did the scientific study of the Dark Ages, the RWP and MWP become verboten? 

Around 1999 or thereabouts.

“I received an astonishing email from a major researcher in the area of climate change. He said, ‘We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period!…In 1999, Michael Mann and his colleagues published a reconstruction of past temperatures in which the MWP simply vanished…”  —Dr. David Deming, testimony before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, Dec. 6, 2006

July 23, 2021 6:50 am

It is true.
https://breadonthewater.co.za/2021/03/04/the-1000-year-eddy-cycle/

But it appears that particular efforts have been made to make Eddy disappear…..

Reply to  HenryP
July 23, 2021 9:36 am

If you look at the picture, at the beginning of the article, and accepting there is no AGW, then it looks like Bray/ Hallstatt and Eddy cycles coming to a maximum…..just about…..now?

Redge
July 23, 2021 7:00 am

Nothing new under the sun

CO2 Science

fretslider
July 23, 2021 7:41 am

…suggests that both winters and summers were warmer than now in Florida at certain periods during the RWP.

No, no, no. It’s worse now than we ever thought and worse than its ever been. Don’t believe me?

Just ask Griff. He’ll lay it out.

Last edited 2 months ago by fretslider
Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  fretslider
July 23, 2021 9:54 am

He’ll read the headline, miss the point completely and tell us that it’s all lies, the Romans never made it to Florida.

Last edited 2 months ago by Right-Handed Shark
John Tillman
July 23, 2021 8:02 am

“Vandal” is a misnomer for a solar minimum beginning in AD 550. The Vandal kingdom in North Africa was conquered by the Byzantine Empire in 534. The Visigoth kingdom in the Iberian Peninsula was not conquered by Arabic and Berber Muslims until 711, so those Germanic “barbarians’”name would be more applicable.

Duane
July 23, 2021 8:21 am

Well, of course. Water expands and contracts as its temperature changes, pretty much everybody understands that. A warming planet means warming ocean which means higher sea levels. Congruent with higher sea levels is also higher atmospheric CO2, in part because the warmer ocean has a higher vapor pressure meaning more water vapor leaves the ocean to transfer to the atmosphere. Warmer oceans emit more water vapor and CO2, and colder oceans emit less CO2 and water vapor

All of this looks pretty obvious to any students of archaeology studying the ancient artifacts, where sea levels were obviously higher or lower than today depending upon the date range.

Ed Zuiderwijk
July 23, 2021 8:36 am

The gatekeepers must have missed it.

July 23, 2021 9:56 am

Sadly, anything that does not fit the narrative tends to go unfunded and unpublished. Much interesting work has been done that you have to look very hard to find.

Despite the fact that melting glaciers raised the sea levels hundreds of feet, there are some places where Isostatic rebound raise the shoreline even faster than the seas rose. These raised beaches are fascinating places to study. But they don’t fit the narrative because they show that an ice-free Arctic Sea was not the end of the world. Therefore, though the raised beaches hold evidence of a very ancient society of beachcombers, no one seems in a hurry to fund archeological expeditions up there. This demonstrates how the growth of science is stunted by the political narrative.

walt
July 23, 2021 10:37 am

Those computer models work so well no one should be confused by observations and direct measurement.

Javier
July 23, 2021 10:40 am

The Vandal Minimum is usually known as the LALIA, Late Antiquity Little Ice Age.

The key of this study is the last phrase of the article:

Reduced solar radiation may have triggered a change in atmospheric circulation patterns that precipitated the observed climate transition.

As many researchers have observed the climate patterns of the past fit well solar variations in activity as per cosmogenic isotopes.

Wang et al. 2013 keenly observe that the most likely explanation lies in altered atmospheric circulation.

Wang et al. have a similar paper published in 2012 studying the Neoglacial and Roman Warm Period in Scotland:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031018211006080

Reply to  Javier
July 23, 2021 11:02 am

Javier

Good to hear from you again.
I always wondered if that graph that I picked from the internet, (look for my comment earlier on the thread), originated from you?

cycles.png
Javier
Reply to  HenryP
July 23, 2021 11:30 am

Hi Henry.

Yes, I made that graph a long time ago (2016) It was originally published here:
https://euanmearns.com/periodicities-in-solar-variability-and-climate-change-a-simple-model/
You can find the reconstruction for the past 3000 years. It is part of a three panel figure.

Reply to  Javier
July 23, 2021 11:59 am

Thanks. Great show. Well done@!! So. If I look at that graph, it seems to me that current or modern warming is due to both Eddy and Bray / Hallstatt moving to a max.
https://breadonthewater.co.za/2021/03/04/the-1000-year-eddy-cycle/

And nobody noticed that?

Reply to  Javier
July 23, 2021 12:15 pm

Javier
Must say: I like this:

https://euanmearns.com/periodicities-in-solar-variability-and-climate-change-a-simple-model/

I also write on a Dutch blog. Would it be all right for me to translate this, showing your name as the author and everything?

Javier
Reply to  HenryP
July 23, 2021 3:44 pm

Of course. No problem at all.

Please note the following in my 2016 article:

The Gleissberg cycle is reported to affect the hydroclimate as this periodicity is frequently found in lacustrine varved sediments and flood records (Czymzik, et al. 2016). In Central Europe, flooding events appear to increase at the lows of the Gleissberg cycle.

Exactly when we are right now, at the low of the centennial solar cycle due to the low solar activity of solar cycles 24 and 25. Too bad the German authorities don’t learn the right climate lessons.

John Tillman
Reply to  Javier
July 23, 2021 4:52 pm

Or that they even just looked at the weather forecasts for the next week, rather than fixating on GIGO computer games out to 2100.

John Tillman
Reply to  Javier
July 23, 2021 1:20 pm

It goes by other names as well, ie the Dark Ages Cool Period, Migrations or Volkswanderungen CP.

It also is usually dated to the mid fifth century rather than sixth, ie about the time of the fall of Rome to Odoacer, probably an Ostrogoth, in AD 476.

Last edited 2 months ago by John Tillman
ATheoK
Reply to  Javier
July 23, 2021 7:40 pm

Good to read you here again, Javier!

July 23, 2021 12:04 pm

I love it that the authors tag the Solar radiation changes as a possible culprit. It certainly wasn’t fossil fuel.

But the modern day Church of Climate Change priests will still hold up the CO2 molecule as their evil doer. But only those CO2 molecules released by human activity, CO2 is tricky that way.

Herbert
July 24, 2021 12:46 am

AR5 – (2013)-WG1 -13.1.3 – Processes affecting Sea Level-
….“There are other processes that affect sea level but are not associated with contemporary climate change.
Some of these result in changes that are large enough to influence the interpretation of observational records and sea level projections at regional and global scales….”
Hmm.
Did Wang et al 2012 make it to the papers cited in WG1 of AR5?
Can’t find it but I may have overlooked it and will keep looking.
Perhaps it missed the deadline and will appear in AR 6 next year.

July 24, 2021 6:15 pm

And after 800AD came the Medieval Warm Period, when Vikings farmed Southwest Greenland.

observa
July 24, 2021 9:37 pm

You’d think we’d learn building on the seafront with our esplanades-
Ancient Roman Road Discovered Under The Waves of Venice (msn.com)

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