Surface Response to Increased Forcing

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach [See update at the end]

Thanks to the excellent comments by folks here on my post “A Request for Peer Preview“, I thought I’d go down the rabbit hole of the surface response to increased downwelling surface radiation, AKA “radiative forcing” or just “forcing”.

Surface radiation includes the net solar or “shortwave” forcing plus the downwelling “longwave” infrared thermal radiation from the atmosphere. On a global 24/7 basis, the sum of these two averages about half a kilowatt per square metre.

(Please don’t bother me with claims that downwelling longwave radiation from the atmosphere doesn’t exist. It has been measured, not estimated or modeled but measured, thousands of times by scientists all around the planet for over a century. If you don’t think it’s real, you need to do your homework … and in any case, this is not the place to debate it. I never delete comments on other peoples’ threads, and I almost never delete comments on my own threads, but in this case, I’ll make the exception. Please just take up the debate elsewhere, thanks.)

Now, the most direct way to see how variations in total forcing affect the temperature is to use actual data. So on a gridcell-by-gridcell basis, I took a direct look at how the surface temperature is affected by the variations in forcing. For the surface temperature, I used the Berkeley Earth gridded temperature; and for the radiative forcing, I used the CERES data. I first removed the seasonal variations from both datasets, then used standard linear regression to calculate how much the temperature changed when the forcing changed by one watt per square metre (W/m2) in each gridcell. Then I multiplied that by 3.7, since in theory the forcing increases by 3.7 W/m2 when the level of atmospheric CO2 doubles.

Here’s the result of that analysis:

Figure 1. Change over a 20-year period in the temperature due to the change in downwelling longwave (LW) plus shortwave (SW) at the surface.

Note that this gives us 0.15°C per each additional 3.7 W/m2. As expected, the ocean changes less than the land, because of its greater thermal mass, and again as expected, the poles change more than the tropics. Note that there are large areas of the tropical ocean where the surface temperatures are negatively correlated with forcing. This means that in those areas, when the temperature rises, the clouds rearrange to cut down incoming radiation.

However, there’s a huge problem with this method—it doesn’t give the surface time to equilibrate and adjust to the changes in forcing, because the changes are occurring on a monthly basis. So this is just a short-term response to changing forcing. But what we want to know is, what is the long-term response to such a change?

In my last post, I pointed to a novel way to calculate this. I took the average of each of the Berkeley Earth and the CERES 20-year 1° latitude by 1° longitude datasets I’d used to calculate Figure 1 above. Then I made a scatterplot where each dot is one gridcell. I calculated a LOWESS smooth of the data to show the average trend. Here’s that graph from my last post.

Figure 2. Scatterplot of surface temperature versus downwelling surface radiation. The slope of the LOWESS curve is the change in temperature resulting from a 1 W/m2 change in downwelling radiation.

Upon further consideration, I realized that I could get a more accurate answer by dividing the two datasets up into land and ocean. Here are those results.

Figure 3. As in Figure 2, but for the land only.

Figure 4. As in Figs. 2 and 3, but for the ocean only.

Now, these are interesting in their own right. As we saw in Figure 1, the response of the surface to increased forcing goes negative at high ocean temperatures, but not for high land temperatures. In addition, the data is more tightly clustered around the LOWESS smooth when divided in this manner.

These two graphs lead to the following relationships:

Figure 5. Change in land temperature in °C corresponding to a 3.7 W/m2 change in surface forcing at various temperatures/forcing levels.

Figure 6. Change in ocean temperature in °C corresponding to a 3.7 W/m2 change in surface forcing at various temperatures/forcing levels.

Note that as expected, the change in ocean temperature is smaller than the change in land temperature at a given level of surface forcing.

Finally, I took the LOWESS smooths for the ocean and the land, and I used them as lookup tables to let me know the average temperature response for any given level of downwelling surface radiation. I used those temperature responses to calculate the expected temperature change for a global 3.7 W/m2 increase in downwelling surface forcing for each gridcell on the globe. Figure 5 shows the end result of that calculation.

Figure 7. Expected change in surface temperature in the long term for a change of 3.7 W/m2

Some things of note. First, despite this being the result of an entirely different calculation method from that used in Figure 1, the main features are the same. The ocean still warms less than the land. But since this is long term, the ocean has had plenty of time to equilibrate, so the ratio of the two is not as large (Figure 1, ocean 0.08°C, land 0.31°C per 3.7 Wm2. Figure 7 above, ocean 0.39°C, land 0.71°C per 3.7 W/m2 of TOA forcing). We also see that as in Figure 1, the poles warm more than the tropics.

Finally, we see much the same general areas of the ocean cooling while radiation is increasing as we saw in Figure 1.

How well does this represent the long-term response of the surface to changes in radiation? I’d say quite well. Suppose we have two adjacent 1°x1° gridcells of the surface. One is a bit warmer than the other because it has greater downwelling radiation, and the difference between the two temperatures divided by the difference in the two radiation levels is a valid measure of how much the additional radiation heats the planet.

Two key points about this situation. First, the average temperature in those two locations is the result of centuries of them having approximately the same average radiation. We’re talking about variations of a few W/m2 over time, and total downwelling radiation averages about half a kilowatt per square metre.

Second, if over that time the global downwelling radiation has slowly increased due to changes in greenhouse gases, the temperature of both locations will have increased, and that will just shift the points a bit up and to the right in the scatterplots above. But it won’t change the underlying relationship of the temperature differences divided by the radiation differences.

So I’d say that this is a very valid way to accurately measure the long-term real-world surface temperature changes from changes in downwelling surface radiation.

And the bottom line of the analysis? An increase of 3.7 W/m2 in downwelling surface radiation, which is the theoretical increase from a doubling of CO2, will only increase the surface temperature by something on the order of a half of a degree C.

Hmmm …

[UPDATE] An alert commenter has noted that the nominal 3.7 W/m2 per doubling of CO2 is measured at the top of the atmosphere (TOA) and not at the surface. It turns out that for each additional W/m2 of forcing at the TOA, the surface forcing increases by about 1.3 W/m2. This increases my estimate of the temperature change from the 3.7 W/m2 from 0.36 °C to 0.47°C, or from about a third of a degree per doubling to about half a degree per doubling. I’ve swapped out the graphics in Figure 7 for the correct values, and fixed the references in the text.


Here on our dry California forested hillside, the State has officially declared our county a drought area. I went out yesterday to take a look at the two water tanks that together supply both our house and the rental house on our property. Instead of containing 5,000 gallons or so between the two tanks as usual, they had about 1,500 gallons … as you might imagine, I said bad words. Possibilities regarding our two-well water system:

  • Float switches in the tanks are bad.
  • One or both of the submersible pumps are bad.
  • One or both wells silting in.
  • One or both wells w/plugged screens on the submersibles.
  • The wells need plunging or acid-washing or ??.
  • Leakage in the distribution system.
  • It’s just the !@#$%^ drought.

Gotta love owning land, you’ll never get bored. For those aware of my checkered past, it’ll be no surprise that I used to drill water wells and install and service pumps for money, but I’m retired, so the guy from the company who drilled our well is coming out on Friday to take a look.

Best to all, stay well, hug your family, glory in the day, because as the song says, “You don’t miss your water ’til your well runs dry” …

w.

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May 5, 2021 5:59 pm

Figure 6 does not really convey the significance of the drop after 24C. Almost 50% of the ocean surface that is not sea ice is 24C or above 24C.

Oceans regulate to a maximum of 30C. It a thermostatic control. There is no need for a “Greenhouse Effect” and there is no “Greenhouse Effect”. Clouds buzz away at 255K as does most of the land ice. Nothing CO2 does will change that. The clouds reflect more insolation than they reduce in OLR by their absorption and re-emission. Albedo trumps absorption and re-emission at lower temperature to regulate the temperature of the warm pools.

Land is a net loser of energy so can have no impact on the long term temperature trend.

Charts_SST.png
Geoff Sherrington
May 5, 2021 6:02 pm

Some comments above are about lateral or horizontal transfer of air masses and their effect on temperatures allocated to a grid cell.
Eastern Australia provides one example of this, with heat waves. Brisbane is some 3000 km south of the Equator, Sydney 3,750 and Melbourne 4,200. Roughly, their annual maximum temperatures are Brisbane 25⁰C, Sydney 23⁰C and Melbourne 29⁰C, a trend expected from latitude. However, the average maximum temperature of the 40 hottest 5-day historic heat waves each year at each city is Brisbane 32⁰C, Sydney 33⁰C, Melbourne 39⁰C, the reverse of latitude effects. 
Melbourne has hotter heat waves because of the transport of air masses S-E from central Australia under some weather conditions. Alice Springs, in the centre, is some 1,700 km N-W of Melbourne, indicating that reasonably large distance and temperature differences are involved, some 15 grid cells of 1⁰. This does not happen all year round as heat waves are once a year and are usually less than 10 days long, but this extreme factor alone could nudge uncertainty into some assumptions about grid cell temperatures. Reality might not match theory. Geoff S

Ferdberple
May 5, 2021 6:04 pm

Willis, the findings in this article will go nicely at the end of your peer reviewed paper.

Too bad this thread got hijacked early on.

Figures 5 and 6 in this post are especially interesting. Both as a validation of your results and an explanation of where theory and observation differ.

Not just the high enery response over water but the low energy response over land.

What might not be clear to some readers is that the downwelling radiation includes solar (sw+lw) plus back radiation (lw) + feedback (lw) – albedo (sw + lw).

And the reader interested in the “wat” and the fixed speed of light is anticipating a problem in physics solved around 1905. How to increase the energy of a photon if the speed is fixed.

Reply to  Ferdberple
May 5, 2021 7:25 pm

Too bad this thread got hijacked early on.”

Hijacked? Rubbish. If there are questions to be answered, let them be asked!

Ferdberple
Reply to  Mike
May 6, 2021 10:36 am

Anyone that wants to sabotage meaningful discussion at WUWT need only drag a truly smelly red herring across the path.

You dont even need a person. It is simple enough to create a bot to monitor WUWT to inject random questions whenever a new topic opens.

John
May 5, 2021 6:13 pm

Thanks for the new version. I like the order of presentation very much now, and especially the land versus ocean plots. It is interesting to see that the S-B prediction mostly follows the ocean data, which I would expect for a more uniform system, with an offset that makes sense given the complexity of the system. It is also nice that your final average of 1/3 C makes sense from “averaging by eye” the data (especially the ocean). So this seems quite persuasive now.

For a scientific paper, it seems that you have to make contact with prior work to explain what is new here.

It is wonderful how well the peer review system worked here.

Walter Sobchak
May 5, 2021 9:10 pm

“And the bottom line of the analysis? An increase of 3.7 W/m2 in downwelling surface radiation, which is the theoretical increase from a doubling of CO2, will only increase the surface temperature by something on the order of a third of a degree C.”

So the ECS is not 3°C per doubling of CO as hypothesised by Charney and by Hansen, an it is not 1.6° per Stokes and Curry. It is 0.34°.

Ok. Problem solved. As you were, gentlemen. Smoke ’em if you got ’em.

Pablo
May 5, 2021 11:16 pm

“….measurements from satellites, show clearly that the stratosphere actually cools when it’s C02 content is increased,….this has the effect of raising the height of the tropopause without increasing the surface temperature, and so it tends to reduce the surface warming calculated..”

p.114 Elementary Climate Physics by F.W. Taylor

donald penman
May 5, 2021 11:55 pm

I would just like to make a comment about downwelling radiation and hope it is not deleted. Some energy circulates within the Earths atmosphere and gives the Earth a temperature it is not new energy like solar radiation. The Earth is not a cold and lifeless planet so it is obvious that it maintains a temperature because of intermittent solar radiation falling on the surface.

Gary Ashe
Reply to  donald penman
May 6, 2021 1:52 am

It isn’t intermittent solar flux is nearly 1400 joules per square meter at the TOA per second every second of every minute of every day.

Every joule emitted by the earths surface every second of every day, 2 joules are being absorbed per square meter over half the earths surface.

Of those 2 joules absorbed per second on is re-emitted instantly and one is stored to be emitted when on the darkside.

Willis was being abit of a sophist with his back radiation denial guff, nobody denies a downward flux of longwave radiation, what willis couldn’t prove if his life depended on it is that the backwelling longwave radiation is a ”forcing”.

And because it measured by joules per meter per second and every second is the same, that is your average.
For every 2 sqaure meters of the surface one is receiving no solar energy per second and is cooling and the other receiving 480 joules per second driving the temperature upto what we see in the real world, because thats what is really happening.

donald penman
Reply to  Gary Ashe
May 6, 2021 3:01 am

The temperature is determined by the solar radiation entering the Earth and its atmosphere minus the long wave radiation leaving, the temperature is given at any point by this and is why we have seasons. Less solar radiation at the surface means lower temperatures in winter and higher temperatures in summer altered by advective mixing. Back radiation does not drive warming it is not a variable unlike the things I have mentioned above.

Bob Wentworth
Reply to  donald penman
May 8, 2021 1:54 pm

The temperature is determined by the solar radiation entering the Earth and its atmosphere minus the long wave radiation leaving, 

No, that doesn’t determine temperature, although it relates to changes in temperature.

On average, there is zero difference between the energy in solar radiating entering the Earth and longwave radiation leaving. Yet, this doesn’t mean the temperature of the Earth is 0 K.

For a good analogy, consider a lake that is fed by one river. At the output of the river is a dam with a V-shaped slot in it, so that the higher the water level, the faster water will flow out. In steady state, the water level of the lake will always adjust so that the rate of water flowing in matches the rate of water flowing out.

In this analogy, the river flowing in corresponds to the flow of radiation. The water flowing out of the dam corresponds to upwelling longwave radiation. And, the water level corresponds to the surface temperature of the planet.

In this example, there are two things that determine water level: (1) the rate of water flowing in, and (2) the flow-rate-vs-height characteristics of the dam.

Solar radiation relates to #1, but it is not the only factor influencing temperature, since #2 is also important.

Back radiation does not drive warming it is not a variable unlike the things I have mentioned above.

Longwave-absorbing gases in the atmosphere “constrict the channel” for radiant energy trying to leave. In the lake analogy, it’s as if they narrow the exit V-notch in the dam, thereby raising the water level needed to equalize in-flow and out-flow.

Chris G
May 6, 2021 1:21 am

I tried a simple calculation of the climate sensitivity to CO2 as follows:

I estimated the area under the outgoing infrared graph for the Earth, the portion relating to CO2 frequencies was about 16%. From temperatures associated with that range of frequencies we can estimate the altitude that CO2 radiates to space.

As the effective radiating level is about 5km we therefore have 16% at 11.8km and 84% at 3.64km.

It would seem sensible to assume that the effective radiating level is proportional to pressure, double the pressure means double the CO2 in any unit volume. So if CO2 concentration is doubled the the effective radiating level will rise to an altitude where pressure is halved.

Taking the relationship between altitude and pressure we then get that 16% of outgoing radiation being finally released to space at 16.3km.

So the average radiating level has increased from 5.00km to 5.75km

Given a lapse rate of 6C/km this give a sensitivity of 4.5C per doubling.

Obviously this is a high number so I tried another approach comparing Earth to Venus

Earth’s CO2 radiates at circa 0.2 bar, Venus’s at circa 0.01 bar. So we can infer that if we increased Earth’s CO2 to 96% we’d get a rise in ERL that corresponds to 3.4C per doubling.

Both values are on the high side so there would appear to be a negative feedback somewhere that links to CO2 somehow……

GregK
May 6, 2021 1:41 am

Re : It’s just the !#$%^ drought.

Tim Flannery [at one time probably the most popular go to doomist in Australia ] on drought in Eastern Oz in 2007
https://www.abc.net.au/local/archives/landline/content/2006/s1844398.htm

and now

Worst floods for 60 or 100 or some number of years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Eastern_Australia_floods

So I think you’ll be ok in the long run Willis but there’s always…https://www.kqed.org/science/1962273/megadrought-conditions-not-seen-for-400-years-have-returned-to-the-west-scientists-say

Bob Wentworth
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 8, 2021 2:20 pm

my calculation of ∆T/∆F, the temperature response to increased radiation, includes all of the feedbacks.

It’s true that your calculation includes some of the feedbacks, but it doesn’t follow that it incorporates all of the feedbacks in a way that couldn’t change in response to global forcing.

The temperature in most locations is strongly influenced by global circulation patterns within the oceans and atmosphere.

Global forcings could stimulate changes in those circulation patterns. If that happened, then I don’t think we can know, a priori, whether or not the scatter plots you base your analysis on would shift. If those scatter plots and the associated curve fits shifted, then your analysis would not be predicting the correct results.

* * *

Another significant issue with your analysis is that it assumes an unrealistic non-physical distribution for the forcing, ∆F. While an increase in CO₂ concentration might be distributed uniformly over the globe, that will definitely not lead to a uniform increase in downwelling radiation. (I discussed this more in another comment.)

Gary Ashe
May 6, 2021 2:44 am

There are not many places that the back welling longwave infrared can act as ‘heat’ to the surface on this planet, parts of antarctica maybe that get below minus 83c.

The longwave also aids all surface evaporation of water day and night greatly.
But that is not ”warming” it is a cooling mechanism.

Considering 74% of the earths surface is covered by water fresh or salty, thats a coolng mechanism for 3 quarters of the earths surface.

A cooling mechanism everybody knows this to be correct, yet ignores it or worse calls it a warming.
There are not many places that the back welling longwave infrared can act as ‘heat’ to the surface on this planet, parts of antarctica maybe that get below minus 83c.

The longwave also aids all surface evaporation of water day and night greatly.
But that is not ”warming” it is a cooling mechanism.

Considering 74% of the earths surface is covered by water fresh or salty, thats a coolng mechanism for 3 quarters of the earths surface.

A cooling mechanism everybody knows this to be correct, yet ignores it or worse calls it a warming.
There are not many places that the back welling longwave infrared can act as ‘heat’ to the surface on this planet, parts of antarctica maybe that get below minus 83c.

The longwave also aids all surface evaporation of water day and night greatly.
But that is not ”warming” it is a cooling mechanism.

Considering 74% of the earths surface is covered by water fresh or salty, thats a coolng mechanism for 3 quarters of the earths surface.

A cooling mechanism everybody knows this to be correct, yet ignores it or worse calls it a warming even though evaporation is removing heat from the surface.

David L. Hagen
Reply to  Gary Ashe
May 6, 2021 5:52 am

Need to clarify “longwave radiation” by discussing the temperature of the greenhouse gas (H2O CO2 etc.) or cloud that is radiating up and down (& all directions).

Bob Wentworth
Reply to  Gary Ashe
May 8, 2021 2:26 pm

There are not many places that the back welling longwave infrared can act as ‘heat’ to the surface on this planet, parts of antarctica maybe that get below minus 83c.

It sounds like you’re believing the false narrative that radiation from CO₂ can’t warm anything beyond -80℃.

Martin Mason
May 6, 2021 2:47 am

I’m sorry but I’m not sure that the aggressive moderating is always appropriate. I learned a lot from G.Wood’s comment on California and the responses rubbishing it, very good learning experience for me. Surely threads are just that, they go where they will and perhaps not always glued to the OT? Surely we benefit from other views?

Mike Haseler (aka Scottish Sceptic)
May 6, 2021 5:09 am

I’ve tried contacting Willis, to talk about this subject but without success. So I will not add any comments on the substance, instead I will confine myself to: “Please don’t bother me with claims that downwelling longwave radiation from the atmosphere doesn’t exist

The real question is not whether it exists, but whether it is radiation or heat. This is a very important distinction, and the reason the diagrams are so confusing is because those drawing them do not understand the difference. And so the fact it clearly wasn’t understood by those producing the heat flow diagrams, show that they do not understand this important distinction.

And it is very important because it is the same distinction between whether a trend “exists” or whether it is just natural variation: the most important question of all.

David L. Hagen
Reply to  Mike Haseler (aka Scottish Sceptic)
May 6, 2021 5:54 am

 radiation or heat” is confusing. Thermal energy (aka “heat”) is transferred by radiation, conduction and convection.

David L. Hagen
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 6, 2021 11:16 am

“Heat” depends on the definition. The hotter and cooler sun example shows energy transferred from one body to another by radiation. e.g. See:
“This book is concerned primarily with energy exchange by the mechanism of thermal radiation.” Radiation Heat Transfer, E.M. Sparrow & R.D. Cess 2018 ISBN 1351420119
“Energy that is transferred from one system to another by virtue of a temperature difference is called “heat”. Sect 2.4 The First Law of Thermodynamics p66
Physical Chemistry, William F. Sheehan, 2nd Ed.

leitmotif
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 6, 2021 2:28 pm

OMG, you are so out of touch Willis. You are just spouting hypotheses with no evidence to support them. You’ll be quoting Eunice Foote, John Tyndall and Svante Arrhenius next like rockyrex at the Guardian.

This sort of lukewarmism gives credibility to the warmists they don’t deserve.

leitmotif
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 7, 2021 10:06 am

DELETED

As I said in the head post:

(Please don’t bother me with claims that downwelling longwave radiation from the atmosphere doesn’t exist. It has been measured, not estimated or modeled but measured, thousands of times by scientists all around the planet for over a century. If you don’t think it’s real, you need to do your homework … and in any case, this is not the place to debate it. I never delete comments on other peoples’ threads, and I almost never delete comments on my own threads, but in this case, I’ll make the exception. Please just take up the debate elsewhere, thanks.)

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 7, 2021 11:56 am

DELETED. It appears you are a slow learner. This is NOT a post to argue about the existence of downwelling longwave radiation.

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 8, 2021 4:12 pm

DELETED

leitmotif
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 8, 2021 4:23 pm

DELETED. Give it up. Take it elsewhere, as I politely requested.

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 9, 2021 11:55 am

Willis Eschenbach. The Cancellation Police Officer.

You’re a disgrace, Willis.

Hang your head in shame.

Paul Bahlin
Reply to  leitmotif
May 7, 2021 1:59 pm

Unknown to many people, our bodies don’t sense temperature. They sense energy flow. Feel cold? It is your body’s sensors detecting energy flow out of your 98.6 F body’s skin. Feel warm? It is your body feeling energy flow into that same skin. There are many simple experiments you can perform in your own kitchen to verify this. GOOGLE it.

There’s an interesting thing we can do with this knowledge to demonstrate a feature of radiation.

We’ve adapted ourselves such that when we are sitting in our living room bathed in IR emitted by our 70 F stuff. Our out flowing radiation from our 98,6 degree bodies is a net flow from hot to cold that we sense as neutral, and comfortable.

Now go stand near a window in winter. Your window side is no longer bathed in IR from 70 degree stuff. It feels cold because now that side is bathed in radiation from the frigid stuff outside.

When I was a kid I would say that cold is pouring through the window. I was wrong. The problem was that I was no longer being ‘heated’ by that IR that was cooler than my body. The snow and ice didnt radiate enough to keep my skin sensors neutral. Hmmmmm

leitmotif
Reply to  Paul Bahlin
May 7, 2021 2:26 pm

DELETED. Are you really this stupid, or is it just arrogance? Stop with the attacks on back radiation

Next, you say:

Willis is still smarting from the mauling he took from Joseph Postma several years ago on back radiation.

And as to me “smarting” from some defeat by some guy called Joseph Postma, I have no memory of that at all. I also have no memory of who Joe is.

Sorry, I’m sure it looms large in your mind, but on my side of the screen it doesn’t exist.

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 8, 2021 2:27 pm

You know full well who Joseph Postma is, Climate of Sophistry. If you don’t you have been living on the moon. He kicked your ass out of the stadium on back radiation. I’ve seen your blogs before when Joseph Postma was cited and you didn’t pretend to not know him then.

leitmotif
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 9, 2021 1:10 pm

900 x 100 is not 900,000

And you would remember it because Joseph Postma wrote an article about you. Btw I didn’t say Joe Postma, you did.

Willis Eschenbach’s Greenhouse Shell Game
Climate of Sophistry. Well named for debunking people like you.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 8, 2021 4:14 pm

I attack back radiation; you attack me.

Sound familiar?

leitmotif
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 9, 2021 12:07 pm

DELETED

Bob Wentworth
Reply to  Mike Haseler (aka Scottish Sceptic)
May 8, 2021 2:51 pm

The real question is not whether [downwelling longwave radiation from the atmosphere] exists, but whether it is radiation or heat.

There are two equally valid ways of representing what is going on. There is an “energy flow” perspective and a “heat flow perspective.”

In the “energy flow” perspective, energy flows in two directions. Longwave radiant energy from the surface flows upward to the atmosphere, and longwave radiant energy from the atmosphere flows downward to the surface.

In the “heat flow” perspective, radiant heat flows in only one direction (upward from the surface), and the magnitude of that heat flow is given by the difference of the two radiant energy flows. In other words, to get radiant heat flow upward, you subtract the downwelling longwave radiation flux from the flux of longwave radiation emitted by the surface.

In the “energy flow” perspective, downwelling LW radiation increases the internal energy of the surface while upwelling LW radiation from the surface decreases that internal energy.

In the “heat flow” perspective, there is a net radiative heat flow away from the surface and the rate of heat flow away from the surface is reduced because of the presence of downwelling radiation.

Analyzing the problem within either perspective yields identical predictions about what happens to the temperature of the surface. Using either perspective, the presence of downwelling radiation leads to a higher predicted surface temperature.

So, there is no question about whether what is happening is radiation or heat, it’s just a question of which perspective one wants to use to analyze the situation.

the reason the diagrams are so confusing is because those drawing them do not understand the difference.

If you’re confused by the diagrams, it may be because you expect them to be heat flow diagrams when they’re typically not—and are not intended to be.

You can draw an “energy flow” diagram, a “heat flow” diagram, or a “mixed” diagram which includes heat flows for non-radiative processes, and energy flows for radiative processes.

Most “global energy balance” diagrams are of the “mixed” type. It’s possible to translate such a “mixed” diagram into a pure “heat flow” diagram, if one is more comfortable with that. (I demonstrate such translations in my energy recycling blog post and in another essay.)

Any of these types of diagram offer a valid way of analyzing a situation, provided you understand the meaning of what you’re looking at.

Martin Mason
May 6, 2021 6:24 am

Willis, as always the article is exceptional. Many thanks.

Peter Ibach
May 6, 2021 7:25 am

Great analysis.
I see two potential gaps in this approach. First, it assumes homogeneous 3.7W/m² CO2-forcing, which in reality differs significantly over the globe. Could you include that in your calculation?

Second, some possible feedbacks might not be included, as they don’t show up in the 20-year time series. I would consider local feedback as covered, i.e., latent heat, evaporation, amount of water vapor, and clouds. That all happens within the diurnal and seasonal dynamics. What it does not necessarily include is long-term feedback, such as the relocation of the ITCZ, the Hadley cell, or the meridional heat transfer. Wich might play a role over longer warming period.

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 6, 2021 6:18 pm

W. ==> There you again see the “strange attractor” non-liner phenomenon in the blue scatter chart.

Any ideas on that?

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 7, 2021 5:28 am

w. ==> Sticking with that, huh?

menace
May 6, 2021 9:10 am

Willis

Interesting that in polar regions (<240 W/m^2) OVER LAND there is a strong postive warming response as indicated by the large peak in figure 5.

I’m not sure if anyone has ever explained or theorized as to how it is that polar regions over land have such an extreme response compared to other land areas.

May be a good topic for future

lgl
May 6, 2021 9:22 am

3.7 is at ToA, not surface.

lgl
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 6, 2021 11:32 pm

That’s only the initial value. Then surface heats > atmosphere heats > more LW to the surface > surface heats …

lgl
Reply to  lgl
May 7, 2021 12:00 am

Correction. It’s not even the inital value. Wonder what you are showing. EBAF 4.1 web tool gives outgoing LW at 20 km.

lgl
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 7, 2021 9:39 am

Thanks, strange though since there is no downwelling LW at ToA (or 10 watts at 20 km according to MODTRAN).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_sensitivity

“The radiative forcing caused by a doubling of atmospheric CO
2 levels (from the preindustrial 280 ppm) is approximately 3.7 watts per square meter (W/m2). In the absence of feedbacks, this energy imbalance would eventually result in roughly 1 °C (1.8 °F) of global warming. This figure is straightforward to calculate using the Stefan-Boltzmann law and is undisputed.”

and the calc is shown under Notes.

So, I still don’t understand your “expected per Stefan-Boltzmann”

lgl
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 7, 2021 12:43 pm

“is the calculation of dTdW using total surface downwelling LW + SW applied to the derivative of SB equation, times 3.7.”

I have to ask, what would your calcs look like for a rock planet without GHE? I don’t understand why they have mixed effective temp and surface temp. Seems like some assumption(s) missing.

For me to make any progress I need to know:

  1. Is the 1 deg with or w/o fast WV feedback?
  2. Is WV feedback included in Modtran calcs?

At present I’m guessing yes to both.

lgl
Reply to  lgl
May 7, 2021 1:45 pm

You don’t have to point out yes to w or w/o 🙂

lgl
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 7, 2021 9:49 am

I ment the initial LW before it is amplified by the greenhouse loop like I tried to indicate. Using Modtran you have to offset temperature 1 degree to restore LW out at ToA, after a CO2 doubling, and the LW down at surface has then increased 8 watts. So I doubt “The downwelling surface LW is the net of all of that.”

[edit.
Modtran: relative humidity fixed, 1976 std atmosphere, NOAA cirrus model]

lgl
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 7, 2021 1:36 pm

I haven’t come to your reality yet. Can we stick to theory for now?

I guess your Modtran runs are with water vapor pressure fixed.
Isn’t it commonly believed that relative humidity will remain constant?

Ferdberple
May 6, 2021 10:11 am

Sorry, Ferd, but that dog won’t hunt …

w.
==========
Willis, I should have added a /sarc tag. I was replying to Nic.

As I understand your paper, you are starting with the consensus position in climate science that increased CO2 causes warming and answering the queation “how much”.

Maybe i misunderstood Nic’s objection, but from what I read he appeared to be arguing that you had not proven that CO2 causes warming. Only that there is a correlation.

I was pointing out that correlation exist all over the place and can “prove” anything you want. It seemed obvious to me that you were not trying to prove that CO2 causes warming. Or that warming causes CO2.

Rather you were trying to answer this question “GIVEN that increase CO2 will lead to increased radiative forcing what is the Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity to this forcing”.

As I read Nic, I understood him to be arguing that since you have not proven the “given” your results for ECS cannot be correct.

I was rejecting Nic’s argument. A “given” is established by citation. Otherwise you would have to go back to ultimately proving that 1+1=2.

leitmotif
May 6, 2021 10:26 am

More back radiation nonsense from a lukewarmer.

Lowell
May 6, 2021 2:04 pm

It might take awhile to fully digest this post. My brain doesent work as fast as it did at one time. It seems other factors might also be relevant. Such as time of year and latitude. Or it could be that I am over complicating things.

May 6, 2021 3:08 pm

The Antarctic has cooled since 1995, and the AMO and Arctic warming since then is a response to a net decline in climate forcing. The polar see-saw. Ocean phases respond inversely to net changes in climate forcing, the warm AMO is driving most of the Arctic warming.
If rising CO2 forcing projects onto the natural variability of atmospheric teleconnections, it should not be increasing heat transport to the Arctic by increasing positive AO/NAO conditions.

https://archive.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch10s10-3-5-6.html

Eben
May 7, 2021 1:47 am

DELETED

As I said in the head post:

(Please don’t bother me with claims that downwelling longwave radiation from the atmosphere doesn’t exist. It has been measured, not estimated or modeled but measured, thousands of times by scientists all around the planet for over a century. If you don’t think it’s real, you need to do your homework … and in any case, this is not the place to debate it. I never delete comments on other peoples’ threads, and I almost never delete comments on my own threads, but in this case, I’ll make the exception. Please just take up the debate elsewhere, thanks.)

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  Eben
May 7, 2021 10:12 am

You sound like the Back Radiation Police, Willis. Eben has been cancelled.

leitmotif
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
May 7, 2021 4:44 pm

DELETED. Go whine elsewhere about how you’re being treated so krool.

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 8, 2021 2:16 pm

DELETED. How about you discuss the topic of the post, instead of endlessly acting like a six-year-old?

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 8, 2021 4:19 pm

DELETED. You really are a slow learner. I am NOT going to debate the existence of downwelling longwave on this thread. I said that at the start, I said it in the middle, I say it again. Not gonna happen.

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 9, 2021 12:10 pm

DELETED

leitmotif
May 7, 2021 4:08 pm

DELETED. I simply asked people to not try to sidetrack this post into an endless discussion of whether downwelling radiation exists. I pointed out that there are lots of places to make that case, but this isn’t one of them.

But nooo, such polite requests are not for you. You’re above it all, you want to lay down, beat your fists on the floor, and have a tantrum instead of just making your argument on any of a thousand other threads on the web.

Take it elsewhere. This is NOT the post for that.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? I’m not “censoring” you. I’m trying to prevent you from spinning this thread into a meaningless argument. Lots of places you can do that. Not here.

w.

leitmotif
Reply to  leitmotif
May 8, 2021 2:18 pm

DELETED