Very Inconvenient Alps Glacier History…Top Glaciologists: Alps Were Ice-Free 6000 Years Ago

Reposted from The No Tricks Zone

By P Gosselin on 6. January 2021

Alps ice-free…6000 years ago, when CO2 was much lower than today’s levels.

Dr. Sebastian Lüning earlier today released his latest Klimaschau report, No. 6. In the first part he looks at glaciers in the Alps over the course of much the Holocene.

It turns out that Most of the Alps were ice-free 6000 years ago, glaciologists have discovered.

In his video, the German geologist presents a new paper authored by glaciologists Bohleber et al, 2020 of the Austrian Academy of Science. The Austrian-Swiss team discovered from ice cores that the 3500-meter high Weißseespitze summit was ice free 5900 years ago.

Much warmer in the early Holocene

Lüning next shows why the Alps were ice-free 6000 years ago by using a chart by Heiri et al 2015, which shows it was some 2°C warmer than today.

Beginning some 10,000 years ago, after the Ice Age ended, all glaciers below 4000 meters elevation in the East Alps melted away over the years that followed. Then beginning 6000 years ago, cooling started again and the glaciers returned (neoglaciation). Today temperatures in the Alps are still well below early Holocene levels.

Today’s glacial retreat very much in debate

5300 years ago, Ötzi succumbed to injuries just a few kilometers from the Weißseespitze, says Lüning. “The historical glacier melt show that today’s glacier retreat is not a new phenomenon. Whether or not there will be another complete melting of the East Alps glaciers remains a scientific debate.”

Also, you’ll find many more non-alarmist articles on glaciers here.

All images cropped from Klimaschau, Ausgabe 6

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beng135
January 7, 2021 6:20 am

Many regional areas were ice-free during the early parts of the Holocene that aren’t now. Even the eco-loons should acknowledge this well-established fact.

Robertvd
Reply to  beng135
January 7, 2021 4:32 pm
nyolci
January 7, 2021 6:26 am

Hey, Charlie, a bit of confusion and misrepresentation…

  1. He’s talking about the Eastern Alps. The glaciation of Western Alps is explicitly stated. So no, The Alps as such weren’t ice free.
  2. Like it or not, this is in line with scientific evidence. It’s not something earth shattering. Globally that period was warm but not as warm as today. Certain places were warmer for a short time (but it’s gettin’ fcukin’ tiring explainin’ this to this kindergarten set again and again and again and agan…).
  3. When Ötzi died, glaciation was well under way for like 600-800 years. His body froze immediately. He was killed outside his normal habitat, very likely during a pursuit. His body was not looted, a fact that bears witness to the unusual circumstances (and very likely remoteness from normal habitat) of his death. He had an extremely valuable copper axe and various tools, some of which needed months of work so there were quite a few things to loot.
Last edited 6 months ago by nyolci
Bryan A
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:16 am

I hear your pain…
It is extremely difficult for a woke 2 year old to try “fcukin explainin” anything to one’s much older and wiser like the “kindergarten set”

nyolci
Reply to  Bryan A
January 9, 2021 6:22 am

I hear your pain…

And you will feel it too, watch your back for maoist communist guerillas in your backyard! 😉

Last edited 6 months ago by nyolci
Graemethecat
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:18 am

If the Eastern Alps were ice-free 7000 years ago, and are glaciated today, how is it possible temperatures are higher today than then?

MarkW
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 7, 2021 7:28 am

Why do you keep relying on science. The Holy Models have spoken, that should be enough to silence all doubt.

Notanacademic
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 7, 2021 10:10 am

Because it’s unprecedented haven’t you heard, besides this was before records began so it doesn’t count. Sarc.

Antonym
Reply to  Notanacademic
January 7, 2021 4:32 pm

Highest temperatures since records we have selected began.

nyolci
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 9, 2021 6:21 am

If the Eastern Alps were ice-free 7000 years ago, and are glaciated today, how is it possible temperatures are higher today than then?

See? This is what I’m talking about when I say you are the kindergarten set.

Graemethecat
Reply to  nyolci
January 9, 2021 8:06 am

Kindly explain how higher temperatures lead to more glaciation.

nyolci
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 9, 2021 10:05 am

Kindly explain how higher temperatures lead to more glaciation.

“Globally that period was warm but not as warm as today. Certain places were warmer for a short time.” And then comes the “again and again and again and again…” part.

Graemethecat
Reply to  nyolci
January 9, 2021 8:22 am

Actually, you are absolutely correct to class me as one of the kindergarten set. Even kindergartners like me understand that lower temperatures mean more ice. Well done A-holist!

nyolci
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 9, 2021 10:06 am

Even kindergartners like me understand that lower temperatures mean more ice.

See above.

philincalifornia
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:20 am

Globally that period was warm but not as warm as today. Certain places were warmer for a short time”

I must’ve missed your explanation(s), sorry. Could you summon up the energy to explain it one more time please?

MarkW
Reply to  philincalifornia
January 7, 2021 7:29 am

He gave you the explanation yesterday.
The climate “science” insiders have spoken.
Outsiders and amateur’s have no right to an opinion.

Notanacademic
Reply to  MarkW
January 7, 2021 7:43 am

If the outsiders are not to be included in the debate why is he always on wuwt trying to debate with outsiders

MarkW
Reply to  Notanacademic
January 7, 2021 9:46 am

Nobody said he was smart. Just that he had an impenetrable sense of superiority.

fred250
Reply to  MarkW
January 7, 2021 4:56 pm

And absolutely NOTHING to back it up with.

A massive INFERIORITY COMPLEX struggling to escape through mindless bluster.

nyolci
Reply to  MarkW
January 9, 2021 6:27 am

Nobody said he was smart.

I say now! 😉

Just that he had an impenetrable sense of superiority.

I do sense my superiority!

Ab Mix-O'Lydian
Reply to  nyolci
January 9, 2021 2:28 pm

“Women sense my power, Mandrake.”

nyolci
Reply to  MarkW
January 9, 2021 6:25 am

Outsiders and amateur’s have no right to an opinion.

Exactly! You’re showing progress, MarkW, you’ve started to catch up!

Loydo
Reply to  philincalifornia
January 8, 2021 1:28 am

 “Could you summon up the energy to explain it one more time please?”

Allow me. It is pretty simple, are you sitting comfortably? Then I’ll begin.

Once, it was teenie weenie bit warm for a very, very long time, so long that some ice veeerrry slowly melted. It was so slow it took way, way longer than five years, yes it did! After that it got cooler, slowly, slowly, cooler and cooler so that some of the ice came back. That also took waaay longer than five years, yep.

But then one day, it just got warm all of a sudden, just like that! Even warmer than it was before, but it happened so quick, the ice didn’t get a chance to melt yet, well, not very much.

But in a very long time, far off in the future, maybe when you’re all grown up, it’ll disappear like before.

And here’s a picture:
comment image

Now off to bed with you.

A

Last edited 6 months ago by Loydo
Bill Toland
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 2:25 am

Here’s another picture.

comment image&f=1&nofb=1

Loydo
Reply to  Bill Toland
January 8, 2021 3:38 am

That stops in 1950.

Bill Toland
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 4:02 am

So what, it doesn’t change the shape of the graph at all. Today’s temperature is still below all of the other peaks.

TheFinalNail
Reply to  Bill Toland
January 8, 2021 5:25 am

That chart doesn’t show “today’s temperature”. It shows GISP2 data from Alley, 2004. He used the conventional 1950 as ‘today’ and if you look closely at the chart you will see that the data doesn’t even reach that point. In fact the latest point in the series ends in late 1854. It misses out all the warming between 1854 and today.

The source of the chart as depicted here, Olle Humlum’s Climate4you site, even explicitly states this: “The GISP2 record ends around 1854, and the … graph[s] therefore ends here.”

https://www.climate4you.com/GlobalTemperatures.htm#An%20overview%20to%20get%20things%20into%20perspective

fred250
Reply to  TheFinalNail
January 8, 2021 8:06 pm

“It misses out all the warming between 1854 and today.”

TOTAL BS, of course, as rusty STUFFS UP yet again, ignorant putz that it is.

Pages 2K, Giss et all ALL show the warming at the end of the LIA starting in about 1900+/- a bit

comment image

That makes the slight up tick ending at 1950 +/-

So same temperature in the Arctic as now.

Poor rusty…no wonder a mindless muppet like you gets confused by all the inconsistent crap coming from the AGW apostles.

nyolci
Reply to  TheFinalNail
January 9, 2021 6:31 am

It misses out all the warming between 1854 and today.

Oops 🙂 This happens when science deniers try to use science to disprove the very same science. Thx for your correction.

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 4:06 am

SO WHAT !

1940s were the same temperature as now.

Or were you IGNORANT of that as well !

Again , another TOTALLY IRRELEVANT nonsense statement form loy-dumb !

TheFinalNail
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 5:02 am

Zero on that scale is 1950. The data (blue line) stops in 1854 actually. Doesn’t stop that image being posted here again and again and again….

fred250
Reply to  TheFinalNail
January 8, 2021 12:45 pm

Your continued ignorance is astounding , rusty

Grow a brain

The end of the graph is 1950, In the NH the current temperature is similar to 1940.

You LOSE as always.

Does stop you making dumb ignorant comments again, and again, and again

TheFinalNail
Reply to  fred250
January 8, 2021 4:50 pm

The end of the ‘graph’ is 1950, yes. But the end of the ‘data’ (blue line) is 1854. Even the source of the chart, climate4you, explicitly states that the data stops in 1854.

How many times does this have to be repeated before people stop posting that chart? It’s been going on for years on this site. That’s hardly ‘skepticism’.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  TheFinalNail
January 8, 2021 6:51 pm

“How many times does this have to be repeated before people stop posting that chart?”

What difference does it make, when all the previous high temperatures of the past are still higher than current temperatures, which is the point of posting such a chart?

fred250
Reply to  TheFinalNail
January 8, 2021 8:23 pm

“That’s hardly ‘skepticism’.”

Nobody can help if you WRONGLY interpret a graph because of basic ignorance.

nyolci
Reply to  TheFinalNail
January 9, 2021 6:34 am

How many times does this have to be repeated

This is it. These guys are hopeless.

Bryan A
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 8:33 am

Which is the extent you can go to when comparing apples to apples. Low resolution Proxy Data Apples when compared to high resolution thermometer Oranges indicate different temperature data. The low resolution apples can’t show the high resolution temperature spikes

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 9:51 am

So what, add another tenth of a degree to the end point.

David
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 1:29 pm

So it has warmed a little since the Little Ice Age, that is kind of a good thing!

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 2:49 am

ROFLMAO

The Marcott fabrication

You know his REAL graphs did not include the mathematical FALLACY of adding high resolution data onto low resolution data don’t you

Even Marcott himself ADMITTED that the up-tick at the end was based on non-robust data.

https://notrickszone.com/2018/12/13/a-fabricated-uptick-marcotts-2013-hockey-stick-graph-debunked-by-marcotts-own-2011-ph-d-thesis/

In an interview with Marcott published by RealClimate.org, it was acknowledged that the “uptick” does not represent a global-scale reconstruction, as it is based on only a few proxy records and lacks statistical significance.

You have FAILED YET AGAIN, ignorant little muppet. !!

Do proper research next time, you pathetic idiot !

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 2:51 am

comment image

So…..MORE COMPLETE GARBAGE from the DUMBEST AGW shill on the block !!

Last edited 6 months ago by fred250
Graemethecat
Reply to  fred250
January 8, 2021 3:37 am

Fred always comes up with the goods to squash resident troll Loydo!

Bill Toland
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 2:57 am

Here’s another picture showing that sea level in the Holocene Climate Optimum was much higher than today, proving that temperatures were higher then.

comment image

Loydo
Reply to  Bill Toland
January 8, 2021 3:40 am

Patience grass hopper, it took 3000 years to get to that level.

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 3:57 am

What a totally IGNORANT and irrelevant comment, loy-dumb !!

Are you still SO GULLIBLE and SO IGNORANT that you PANIC like a little girl over a 2mm/year sea level rise ?

Last edited 6 months ago by fred250
Bryan A
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 8:38 am

And 3000 years is more than long enough to allow and prepare for it

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 9:50 am

Ah yes, relying on the many times disproven hockey stick to support your lies again.
How typical.

David
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 1:26 pm

.27C over 4 years is not very frightening. Considering most of the Northern Hemisphere is freezing cold in January, dare we say no warming by the end of the month?

fred250
Reply to  David
January 8, 2021 8:25 pm

It wouldn’t surprise me to see UAH come in near ZERO for January.

nyolci
Reply to  Loydo
January 9, 2021 2:16 pm

+100

nyolci
Reply to  philincalifornia
January 9, 2021 6:25 am

Could you summon up the energy to explain it one more time please?

You don’t deserve that 🙂

MarkW
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:27 am

No matter how many studies refute your beliefs, you continue to cling to your religious convictions.

nyolci
Reply to  MarkW
January 9, 2021 10:25 am

No matter how many studies refute your beliefs

None so far.

beng135
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:47 am

nihilist, it was markedly warmer during the early Holocene than now. Get over it.

Loydo
Reply to  beng135
January 8, 2021 1:39 am

Nope, get over it. Oh sorry, you were about to provide some evidence to support your claim, please, do go ahead.

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 3:00 am

ROFLMAO.

Loy-satte , asking for evidence

— that is RIPE !!

DENIAL of the many THOUSANDS of papers showing that to be the case, really makes you look like the most DELIBERATELY IGNORANT FOOL in existence.

comment image

comment image

Loydo
Reply to  fred250
January 8, 2021 3:42 am

What year do your graphs stop?

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 4:03 am

What a DUMB comment

You KNOW that it is currently COOLER than the MWP and certainly COOLER than nearly all the last 10,000 years

Don’t tell me you are still playing chicken little over a tiny highly beneficial warming out of the COLDEST period in 10,000 years

And you KNOW that the highly beneficial warming has ABSOLUTELY NO HUMAN CAUSATION

Prove me wrong, empty sock….

1… Do you have any empirical scientific evidence for warming by atmospheric CO2?

2… In what ways has the global climate changed in the last 50 years , that can be scientifically proven to be of human released CO2 causation?

Or just keep running away, you poor little chicken

Loydo
Reply to  fred250
January 8, 2021 3:18 pm

Yeah but what year does the data stop? 1950? 1850?

fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 8:30 pm

In case you are as ignorant as rusty, (its a real battle of dim-wits)

The up-tick starts in 1900, so the top is around 1950, and current NH temperatures are around the same as 1940.

Current temperatures are BELOW those of the MWP, and FAR BELOW most of the last 10,000 years

Try to pass kindy grade comprehension at some stage, Loy-satte.

Last edited 6 months ago by fred250
fred250
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 4:43 am

No warming in NH since 1940s Loy., so your comment is, yet again.. totally irrelevant.

MarkW
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 9:58 am

Every time Loydo is given a new toy by his masters, he uses it over and over and over again.

beng135
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 9:28 am

Lame-mo, go back into your hidey-hole. Mommy will take care of it all.

fred250
Reply to  beng135
January 8, 2021 1:25 pm

Especially once he knows the toy is broken.

He/she/it seems to have only broken toys, to go with the broken mind.

Mentally handicapped people are often like that.

nyolci
Reply to  beng135
January 9, 2021 10:26 am

Is this supposed to be the evidence? Just askin’…

David Kamakaris
Reply to  Loydo
January 8, 2021 1:18 pm

Here’s some evidence for you.

tree-stump-climate.jpg
nyolci
Reply to  David Kamakaris
January 9, 2021 10:30 am

Here’s some evidence for you.

We are devastated… 🙂 Again, slowly: during the Holocene Climatic Optimum there were regions that were warmer than today for a certain time. Some regions showed persistently higher temperatures. But the overall (global) temperature (as per reconstructions) were lower than what we have today globally. Polar regions were especially warm so no wonder you find an old tree trunk there. This is completely in line with our scientific knowledge.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 10, 2021 2:30 pm

“Holocene Climatic Optimum there were regions that were warmer than today for a certain time.”

Yep..

EVERYWHERE.

Mr. Lee
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:47 am

(but it’s gettin’ fcukin’ tiring explainin’ this to this kindergarten set again and again and again and agan…)

All the glacial melt must be going to the oceans. Now show me a tidal gauge graph, any one of the hundreds, I should be worried about. NOT an “average”. No. No. An actual gauge reading graph. Half of which should be “even worse” than the “average.”

Go for it. School this kindergartner.

MarkW
Reply to  Mr. Lee
January 7, 2021 11:09 am

It never ceases to amaze me how progressives actually believe that they are superior to everyone else.

Melissa
Reply to  MarkW
January 7, 2021 5:31 pm

I prefer to call them by their real name-”Regressives”, because if we were to follow their “science” they would have us all huddling in frozen tepees.

Hugs
Reply to  Melissa
January 8, 2021 3:24 am

Moving steel production to China by climate policy is regressive at least. Or pretty much any production.

Matthew Schilling
Reply to  Hugs
January 8, 2021 8:15 am

The quickest, most effective way to improve manufacturing – the relative cleanliness of it and the treatment of its workers – is to move it to the USA. So… people spent a generation moving as much of it out of the USA as possible.

fred250
Reply to  Matthew Schilling
January 8, 2021 1:29 pm

Without help from the greenies in once-developed countries, China would have much less CO2 emissions

All the alarmist clap-trap in places like Germany and the UK has MASSIVELY INCREASED global CO2 emissions.

Been amusing to watch, as EVERYTHING they do makes life worse for humans and better for plant life.

Matthew Schilling
Reply to  MarkW
January 8, 2021 8:13 am

These are the same people who mocked Trump during a recent debate because they “thought” he claimed children from Central America were riding into the US on the backs of wild dogs.
Arrogance and ignorance combine to make a very toxic brew. Yet, progressives are drunk on it.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Matthew Schilling
January 8, 2021 6:57 pm

There’s more than one meaning for Coyote.

nyolci
Reply to  Mr. Lee
January 9, 2021 10:39 am

All the glacial melt must be going to the oceans. Now show me a tidal gauge graph

We only have tidal gauge data cc 200 years back, so sorry, I can’t show holocene wide graphs.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 10, 2021 2:31 pm

showing ignorance, as always.

This time its of Geology…. to add to the HUGE and ever growing list

Poor dumb nyholist.

Bill Toland
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 7:56 am

Nyolci, sea level was much higher 6000 years ago, showing that the Holocene Climate Optimum was much warmer than today.

https://notrickszone.com/2017/05/08/10-new-papers-sea-levels-1-6-meters-higher-4000-6000-years-ago/

nyolci
Reply to  Bill Toland
January 9, 2021 10:45 am

sea level was much higher 6000 years ago, showing that the Holocene Climate Optimum was much warmer than today.

Unfortunately this inference is false. Sea levels could be higher even when global temperature was lower. The current warming is extremely fast, sea level has to “catch up”.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 10, 2021 2:32 pm

Wrong and ignorant , yet again. The nye way.

Meab
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 8:37 am

“Globally that period was warm but not as warm as today. Certain places were warmer for a short time”,

The Holocene interglacial was less than half as old at that time yet, somehow, all the glaciers had already melted when now, with the interglacial warm period having persisted for over twice as long, the ice is still there? The great quantity of ice following the last glaciation all melted in a very short time but it wasn’t warmer than today? You’re beclowing yourself, Nyolci.

fred250
Reply to  Meab
January 8, 2021 1:34 pm

“You’re beclowning yourself, Nyolci”

Its ability for rational thought, is basically non-existent.

nyolci
Reply to  Meab
January 9, 2021 10:56 am

The Holocene interglacial was less than half as old at that time yet, somehow, all the glaciers had already melted when

  1. No, not all glaciers
  2. It took 3 thousand years of warming and generally high temperature. In the last few thousand years global temperature was lower except for an extremely fast upshot in the last cc. 100 years.
  3. This has been explained numberless times.
fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 10, 2021 2:33 pm

YAWN….. another science-free rant from nye.

So boringly EMPTY of science.

tonyb
Editor
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 9:06 am

I suggest you might like to read ‘Times of Feast Times of Famine’ where E Roy Ladurie traced the movements of glaciers from a huge variety of records. The Glaciers were much smaller 5000 years ago, grew considerably in the Little Ice Age and are currently melting from that high point

tonyb

mikebartnz
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 9:28 am

You are like a bad smell as you just won’t go away.
You have no credibility so just give up.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 9:35 am

During the Little Ice Age Alpine Glaciers were advancing so rapidly that priests were called on to offer prayers and perform religious ceremonies to stop and reverse the advance. This worked so well that now the same process is being used to stop the retreat.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/8/120810-glaciers-vatican-prayer-alps-science-gobal-warming/

Melissa
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
January 7, 2021 5:33 pm

Fitting, as “Pope” Francis is a communist.

Jackie Pratt
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
January 7, 2021 7:12 pm

Hahaha …….. I don’t get it

Redge
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
January 7, 2021 11:57 pm

From your link:

The glaciers began receding in the 1860s, and they continue to shrink today.

ThinkingScientist
Reply to  Redge
January 8, 2021 3:17 am

Agreed. Possibly even as early as 1840 – 1850. This is confirmed by both global glacier data and sea level data. It precedes the warming depcited in temperature and CMIP model forcings by some 50+ years as they only show warming from around 1900-1910. The discrepancy is significant.

A further point is that the linked paper in the head post (Bohleber et al 2020) specifically notes that even in the Western Alps:

“For glaciers above 4000 m, maximum age constraints were obtained from ice cores drilled at Colle Gnifetti (4450 m, Monte Rosa massif) and Col du Dôme (4300 m, Mont Blanc massif). Both glaciers are in the highest region of the glacier’s accumulation zone and feature a saddle-shaped geometry. As opposed to the ice dome at WSS, the saddle geometry affects the interpretation of the ice core dating in relation to glacier maximum age constraints. At Colle Gnifetti, for two ice cores drilled close to the saddle point, radiocarbon dates from the deepest layers point to ice older than 11.5 ka cal.

In contrast, in an ice core drilled at a flank position, a basal age of only (4.1 ± 0.2) ka cal was obtained. Likewise, for an ice core drilled at a flank position at Col du Dôme, the basal age was constrained recently to about (5.0 ± 0.6) ka cal” (my bold)

So while the Western Alps glaciers at very high altitudes have persisted for at least 11,500 years, the flanks of these areas are about 4 – 5,000 yrs old and were not ice covered like they are now. Note the Romans hardly mention glaciers in the alps and it is highly likely most of the high passes were not ice covered in Roman times.

fred250
Reply to  Redge
January 8, 2021 12:02 pm

comment image

ferdberple
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 10:43 am

Certain places were warmer for a short time”,
======================
The Northern regions were warmer for half the year, the southern regions were warmer for the other half. 6 months is after all a short time..

nyolci
Reply to  ferdberple
January 9, 2021 10:58 am

The Northern regions were warmer for half the year, the southern regions were warmer for the other half.

No, the other way around… Just kidding 😉

Scissor
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 10:47 am

Possibly Ötzi took an arrow from a thieving leftist.

MarkW
Reply to  Scissor
January 7, 2021 11:10 am

Thieving leftists don’t do their own stealing. They hire others to do it for them.

Melissa
Reply to  Scissor
January 7, 2021 5:35 pm

LOL! And after watching Otzi fall hundreds of meters, they were too lazy to loot him of his possessions as that would have required sweating.

Redge
Reply to  Melissa
January 7, 2021 11:58 pm

They would have had useful idiots to do that for them

Willem post
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 12:02 pm

Nyolci,

You have any proof western Alps were covered with snow and glaciers, but eastern Alps were not, AT THAT TIME?

nyolci
Reply to  Willem post
January 9, 2021 10:59 am

You have any proof western Alps were covered with snow and glaciers

See the source referenced in the article above.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 10, 2021 2:33 pm

So, that is a , “no”… no evidence.

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 12:30 pm

No, nyloci, you have, as usual, missed the point. The East Alps has few locations above 4,000 meters and were almost entirely ice free. The West Alps were ice free below 4,000 meters, ice surviving only above that point.

nyolci
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
January 9, 2021 11:00 am

The West Alps were ice free below 4,000 meters, ice surviving only above that point.

So the Alps as such weren’t ice free. Thanks for your confirmation!

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 10, 2021 2:34 pm

lack of comprehension is your “thing” isn’t it , nye.

fred250
Reply to  David Middleton
January 7, 2021 3:23 pm

comment image

Swiss Alps considerable COOLER now than for most of the last 10,000 years

FACTS mean nothing to AGW cultists.

fred250
Reply to  fred250
January 7, 2021 3:25 pm

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https://www.geo.uzh.ch/microsite/alpecole/static/course/lessons/30/30i.htm

Oh dear SCIENCE slaps the nyholist around the ears , YET AGAIN.

fred250
Reply to  David Middleton
January 7, 2021 3:32 pm

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Time the nyholist started listening to REAL scientists and not AGW hacks.

Oh look, there’s the MWP .. yet again

So sad for nye.

Last edited 6 months ago by fred250
ATheoK
Reply to  David Middleton
January 7, 2021 5:51 pm

Data’s short video, of his gift from Q, is very apt!

Hilarious laughter that is all about nothing at all, nyolci’s nothing.

Reply to  ATheoK
January 7, 2021 6:03 pm

“Data laughing at you” is how I employ the GIF… Although, the Q scene is one of the best of STTNG… 👍👍

nyolci
Reply to  David Middleton
January 9, 2021 11:01 am

Have you checked the map you inserted?

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 3:20 pm

ROFLMAO

nyholist can’t argue using real science

tries a mis-direction => FAILS

tries peurile, mindless ranting => FAILS

tries another misdirection => not only FAILS but reinforces the point being made

Hilarious.

Its ranting and mindless technicolor-spew carrying-on here,

… is obviously some sort of psycho-compensation for being a complete and utter FAILURE all its life.

sky king
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 3:55 pm

Since griff could not answer my question, maybe you can as you seem to be superior the kindergarten set in your own mind. What is the mechanism whereby temperatures sustained hippos in the Eemian Thames at 280ppm CO2? Why is that mechanism not working at 410ppm?

Jean Parisot
Reply to  sky king
January 7, 2021 5:33 pm

Hippo sweaters

anthropic
Reply to  sky king
January 8, 2021 12:28 am

CAGW folks are fond of hippo-crypts.

Doonman
Reply to  nyolci
January 7, 2021 8:41 pm

It is truly amazing that Otzi the ice man crawled under the ice sheets in the western alps to die after being shot with an arrow, but he did. It is also amazing that other western european cultures decided to crawl under ice sheets and leave art and pottery artifacts, but they did too. Of course, we know this only because they were exposed during the recent melting that occurred during unprecedented warming that was caused by burning fossil fuels.

fred250
Reply to  Doonman
January 7, 2021 11:39 pm

Let’s not forget that miraculous species of trees that actually GROWS under glaciers. ! 🙂

nyolci
Reply to  Doonman
January 9, 2021 11:05 am

It is truly amazing that Otzi the ice man crawled under the ice sheets in the western alps to die after being shot with an arrow, but he did

A few corrections: he was shot above (and not “crawled under”) the ice sheets in the eastern (not “western”) alps.

It is also amazing that other western european cultures decided to crawl under ice sheets

Correction (if you meant the Norwegian study): artifact deposition was above ice.

fred250
Reply to  nyolci
January 10, 2021 2:35 pm

WRONG again, nye

Reply to  nyolci
January 8, 2021 5:07 am

OK, the earth is catastrophically warming. Unfortunatelty ‘you’ have no viable solution.

fretslider
January 7, 2021 6:45 am

“Then beginning 6000 years ago, cooling started again and the glaciers returned…”

It’s a pity that the neolithic people who built Stonehenge – and chums – didn’t keep accurate records for the weather or climate 

Interestingly, their focus was on Sol

Last edited 6 months ago by fretslider
bonbon
Reply to  fretslider
January 7, 2021 7:29 am

Actually, chums did. Sol was known as Bel, also known as Apollo – the same.
They noted with panic the lush forests of the Holocene rebound, slowly turning to peat as it got wetter and wetter.
Under that turf one finds large hewn tree stumps that today could not grow.
Not sure what the Atlantic weather did, as these boat people were more at home out there.
Looking at the stormy weather around Brittany today, where the megalithic revolution took root, makes one wonder if that cooling change forced an inland agricultural shift.

Last edited 6 months ago by bonbon
Joel O'Bryan
January 7, 2021 7:53 am

This ties back to the Omani mangrove WUWT article a few days ago. In that article, the researchers were focused on the mangroves disappearance in coastal areas of Oman, which were tied to the ITCZ shifting southward and ending a pattern of rainfall that greened lots of Arabia and brought lots more rainfall fresh water there. This mangrove disappearance also happened around 6,000 years ago, similar to the timing of the Alps glaical return.

The ITCZ shifted southward and a cooling of the Northern Hemisphere brought back the glaciers and the return of arid conditions across the Sahara Desert and Arabian peninsula. The grasslands of the Sahara disappeared and nomadic tribes were forced to resettle along the fertile Nile River for survival which allowed them to be controlled like sheep for labor by a central governance (the pharaohs and their armies).

The Northern Hemisphere ITCZ shifting is likely a consequence of NH insolation changes under Malinkovitch cycles that alters Hadley cell location and hemisphere wide pressure patterns. Nothing to do with CO2. The term “climate change” morphs like a chameleon to suite the needs of The Cause.

Last edited 6 months ago by joelobryan
ResourceGuy
January 7, 2021 7:54 am

That can get you fired at this stage of the Intolerant Climate Crusades.

MR166
January 7, 2021 8:02 am

“It’s a pity that the neolithic people who built Stonehenge – and chums – didn’t keep accurate records for the weather or climate ”

Just look at the revisions of the modern temperature records.

We are living in an age where history, climate or otherwise, is edited to suit the agenda. True history is a thing of the past.

Jean Parisot
Reply to  MR166
January 7, 2021 5:35 pm

I dont think we can complain, as our records are suspect and we don’t have the excuse of illiteracy.

Peta of Newark
January 7, 2021 8:21 am

Could I flag a coupla oddities here….

1) How can sinking an ice-core tell you that there was no ice.
No ice surely means= No Ice Core. ##

2) There’s mention of Oozle, hapless and misunderstood chap that he was and still is.
In order to have been preserved, he must have fallen onto ice or into snow
But looking at the tempeture graph we’re shown, eyeballing it roughly shows that temps rose after Oozle’s demise. So why is he still ‘here’, there wherever?

Probably gets around more now than his wildest dreams 5,000 years ago.
Phew, maybe even more than Saint Greta does!

## Maybe they sunk their core in the wrong place.
Is it beyond the bounds that a super-massive unprecedented record-breaking since sometime last week but as projecticated by The Computer Model, maybe An Earthquake, shook the mountain up a bit and all the snow fell off.
Right where they sank their core. Worse things happen at sea.
Apparently

If they’d have drilled baby drilled another hill they’d have found some ancient ice.

jus’ wonderin’

Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 7, 2021 9:06 am

If you drill for a ice core, you come to an end, so, the core you drilled can be dated layer by layer.
The last layer you drilled is the oldest, ~6000 years old, below you are on the rock, is not soooo difficult to realise, isn’t it ?

Taylor Pohlman
Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 7, 2021 9:41 am

”and if we had some ham we could have some ham and eggs, if we had some eggs”. To many ifs and maybes in your speculation, ‘pets’. Apply Occam’s Razor.

Mike Dubrasich
Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 7, 2021 9:50 am

Dear jus’ wonderin’:

Another method of dating glaciers — without drilling at all — is to carbon date the organic debris in the melt water that drains out.

This has been done for glaciers along the Inland Passage (BC, Alaska, you know Sport, where Glacier Bay is), and it was discovered that the debris is 7500 years old. What this means is that 7500 years ago there weren’t glaciers there. The valleys filled with ice today were ice-free, green and growing 7500 years ago.

Does that rock your world or what, Dude? OMG. Better roll another one.

Donald C. Armstrong
January 7, 2021 9:26 am

What does anybody know about “sudden stratospheric warming (SSW)”?

https://www.studyfinds.org/extreme-winter-weather-stratospheric-warning/

fred250
Reply to  Donald C. Armstrong
January 7, 2021 3:36 pm

SSW will seep down as a strong cooling trend.

Hubert
January 7, 2021 9:33 am

something strange : which place the temperature refers to ? Between 16 and 20°C the ice is melting ( above 0° C) , so we shouldn’t find any ice in the Alps right now !?

TonyG
January 7, 2021 11:09 am

I’m finding it interesting how we seem to be seeing more papers along these lines – essentially “warmer than we thought in the past”, or “not as much of a problem as we thought” for recent events.

HenryP
January 7, 2021 1:06 pm

More proof that the CO2 is not warming the earth.

fred250
Reply to  HenryP
January 7, 2021 3:35 pm

And as they keep showing us.. (or should I say, by NOT showing us)

No evidence that CO2 does warm the Earth.

Mike
Reply to  HenryP
January 7, 2021 5:53 pm

And more here…

The Himalayan glaciers are not moving…
(a decade starting 2000)….

Two thousand and eighteen glaciers representing climatically diverse terrains in the Himalaya were mapped and monitored. It includes glaciers of Karakoram, Himachal, Zanskar, Uttarakhand, Nepal and Sikkim regions. Among these, 1752 glaciers (86.8%) were observed having stable fronts (no change in the snout position and area of ablation zone), 248 (12.3%) exhibited retreat and 18 (0.9%) of them exhibited advancement of snout

….because the temps are not moving..
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Last edited 6 months ago by Mike
fred250
Reply to  Mike
January 7, 2021 6:26 pm

That cooling trend from the mid 1900s is also evident in this scientific study.

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Tedz
January 7, 2021 3:21 pm

“Although it is unlikely that the European Alps were completely ice-free in the early Holocene, the evidence for generally lower glaciation as compared to the second half of the Holocene is mounting”

Glacier fluctuations in the western Alps during the Neoglacial, as indicated by the Miage morainic amphitheatre 2005

Reply to  Tedz
January 7, 2021 6:00 pm

The same is true for almost all alpine/valley glaciers. The vast majority formed over the past 6,000 years, reaching their maximum Holocene extent in the mid-1800’s.

Al Miller
January 7, 2021 7:44 pm

Weird, but then it never was about climate was it. The lies just keep piling up and the restrictions on personal freedoms keep tightening.

Matthew Sykes
January 7, 2021 10:59 pm

Another nail in the coffin of CAGW. Multiple lines of evidence clearly show that the well known Holocene Climate Optimum was a few degrees warner than today in the northern hemisphere.

Last month the new study fro Iceland, the exposing of long dead forests from retreating glaciers in Sweden, Greenland, Alaska, etc

And then their is Manns hockey stick…… What a joke

Pat from Kerbob
Reply to  Matthew Sykes
January 8, 2021 11:38 am

Yes, their argument remains that THIS warming today is different but that remains conjecture, unproven and in their hearts they know it hence the need to try and perpetrate the hockey stick fraud to try and eliminate past warming.
The graph above shows what we all here know, that it was much warmer in human time frame past and it has been cooling ever since with periodic upticks.
Human history shows that the warming periods correspond with good times, cooling with famine, upheaval, migration and of course, death.
Why would anyone wish to force us back into a cooling trend, assuming this is even possible?

Clinincally insane

Redge
January 8, 2021 12:05 am

I spy the MWP and LIA in that temperature graph

huls
January 8, 2021 4:50 am

It is the speed at which the Alps got their ice cover. That is unprecedented and an absolute danger for womankind.
Snowball earth is coming if we don’t act now!

January 8, 2021 7:20 am

Here are several posts by Pierre Gosselin at NoTricksZone all reporting multiple publications showing less glaciation in the early Holocene optimum than now.

If this were not the case, then the scientific name “Holocene optimum” would seem a mystery indeed.

Modern Iceland’s Climate Is Colder With More Ice Than Any Other Time In The Last 8000 Years Except The 1800s (notrickszone.com)

2 More Studies Affirm Nothing Unusual Or Unprecedented Is Occurring In Polar Climates Today (notrickszone.com)

Warmth-Demanding Species, Glacier Melt Measurements Affirm Early Holocene Svalbard Was 7°C Warmer Than Now (notrickszone.com)

For Most Of The Last 10,000 Years, Greenland Ice Sheet and Glacier Volume Was Smaller Than Today (notrickszone.com)

That’s just a sample, there are many more.

All interglacials have an optimum about a third way in, before which they warm, after which they cool. The Holocene is no different. It’s nnot even different for having a warming spike at the end-interglacial. The Eemian had that too.

Reply to  Phil Salmon
January 8, 2021 7:32 am

Here’s a try to post the paper Hearty et al 2007 showing the high sea level spike at the end of the Eemian (link doesn’t always work)…

GlobalSeauow045009.pdf (350.me.uk)

David
January 8, 2021 1:24 pm

How did Hannibal get African elephants over a glaciated ALPs? He didn’t have to.

Willem post
January 8, 2021 1:41 pm

The graph of temperature should include a graph of CO2, which might show it either leading and lagging the temperatures

Wally
January 8, 2021 4:26 pm

But, but, but….

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/rs-interview-climate-scientist-michael-180058650.html

This.

Demi-God courtesy of rolling stone.

“Proved”

fred250
Reply to  Wally
January 8, 2021 10:21 pm

Ahhh Rolling Stone Magazine

The pinnacle of AGW “scienceᴸᴼᴸ”

Jeff Reppun
January 9, 2021 7:42 am

The study of glaciers is one of the areas of science that undermines the notion of unprecedented warming and discredits those that promote “getting rid of the Medieval Warming Period”. Living in the northwest corner of Washington State I am close to proof of prior warming with evidence of an ancient forest, approximately 1,000 years old, exposed as the Deming Glacier is in retreat. This is documented in A Walk Through Geologic Time from Mt. Baker to Bellingham Bay 2nd edition 2, Easterbrook, Don – Amazon.com. Don Easterbrook also penned this post Mt. Baker glaciers disappearing? A response to the Seattle Times – Watts Up With That? pointing out how some of our area glacier retreat still falls short of the earlier 20th century retreats.
In studies of Alaskan glaciers, scientists regularly align glacier
history with MWP and Little Ice Age with evidence that includes ancient forest
being exposed.
Holocene glacier fluctuations in Alaska
It should be noted that currently these forests have not been replaced. Whether that happens in this current warming cycle remains to be seen.

Ab Mix-O'Lydian
January 9, 2021 2:23 pm

We are today in the Quaternary Ice Age. How could “the Ice Age” have ended 10,000 years ago? Any ice prevalent on Earth means it is an ice age.

Paul Silvan
January 11, 2021 11:24 am

Why has no one discussed isostatic rebound and subsidence when discussing sea levels? I have read that northern Canada will actually have a net drop in sea level due to isostatic rebound while Florida will be pretty much swamped. Is this true? Does data exist as to the effects of underwater volcanoes on the production of methane and sulfur dioxide in the oceans and its possible escape into the atmosphere? Should there be a discussion here about the Earth’s precession, the change in the angle of the Earth’s axis, its eliptical orbit, and the sun’s changing intensity and its slow but steady expansion in diameter? Do fluctuations in the Earth’s magnetic field have any impact on the forces driving weather and climate? And what of the flows of magma under the crust? It seems to me that focusing on CO2 alone is like making a mistake early in a sudoku puzzle and discovering in the last few boxes that one now has two numbers that are alike and that finding the mistake can only be accomplished by starting over. What impact did the flooding of the Black sea and the Mediterranean sea have in the Holocene concerning climate and weather? Not to mention the Bering strait allowing currents to run into and out of the Arctic Ocean. Have weather and climate-driving Ocean currents changed? This debate see far more complex than CO2. Just saying.

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