Washington Post: “A Biden victory positions America for a 180-degree turn on climate change”

US Federal Debt
US Federal Debt Historical and Projected. Source Congressional Budget Office

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

“You look at where California is now going, the federal government needs to get there.” – radical greens are rushing to offer their guidance to Joe Biden on climate policy. But the immediate risk facing the US people is not climate change. The greatest near term risk is an abrupt structural economic adjustment, in which even people who keep their jobs lose an estimated 30% or more of their spending power.

A Biden victory positions America for a 180-degree turn on climate change

New administration will seek to shift U.S. off fossil fuels and expand public lands protections, but face serious opposition from Senate GOP.

By Juliet EilperinDino Grandoni and Darryl Fears
November 8, 2020 at 3:22 a.m. GMT+10

Joe Biden, the projected winner of the presidency, will move to restore dozens of environmental safeguards President Trump abolished and launch the boldest climate change plan of any president in history. While some of Biden’s most sweeping programs will encounter stiff resistance from Senate Republicans and conservative attorneys general, the United States is poised to make a 180-degree turn on climate change and conservation policy.

Biden has vowed to eliminate carbon emissions from the electric sector by 2035 and spend $2 trillion on investments ranging from weatherizing homes to developing a nationwide network of charging stations for electric vehicles. That massive investment plan stands a chance only if his party wins two Senate runoff races in Georgia in January; otherwise, he would have to rely on a combination of executive actions and more-modest congressional deals to advance his agenda.

League of Conservation Voters President Gene Karpinski pointed to California — which has already adopted a low-carbon fuels standard and requirement that half its electricity come from carbon-free sources within five years — as a model. “You look at where California is now going, the federal government needs to get there.

“It’s really important to remember that personnel is policy,” said Tom Steyer, a billionaire environmentalist who ran against Biden during the primary but who then raised money for him. “And every Cabinet position has to be staffed by somebody who has an awareness about climate.”

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/11/07/biden-climate-change-monuments/

The Congressional Budget Office estimates national debt will hit 98.2% GDP this year, and will blow through 100% next year. On its current trajectory, the CBO estimates national debt will hit $25.657 trillion by 2024, 107% of GDP.

100% GDP debt is bad. The European experience suggests 130% gets really bad. Greece entered the 2009 Global Financial Crisis with 130% debt, a debt which rapidly ballooned. Since then, although Greece has enjoyed a few years of anaemic growth, investors have shied away from Greece, because of a persistent credit shortage caused by investor concern over high public debt.

How close is the USA to 130% debt to GDP? The answer is too close for comfort. After deducting borrowing which will occur anyway, to service baked in government deficits, the next US President has room to borrow around $5 trillion, before US national debt hits 130% of GDP.

Biden seems to be well aware of the $5 trillion limitBiden claims his green revolution will cost $5 trillion. If Biden had costed his plan at more than $5 trillion, his plan to push US national debt beyond 130% of GDP would have attracted a lot of negative comments from US economists.

How does the USA solve its debt problem? Cheap energy and a return of manufacturing to the USA could have cut the baked in deficit, by stemming the ongoing haemorrhage of cash to foreign trading partners.

President Trump’s support for the shale revolution cut the US trade deficit to two thirds of what it would have been without shale. Returning manufacturing jobs to the USA could finish the job, by reversing the structural trade deficit, eliminating a significant underlying reason US public debt keeps rising.

The other option is for the USA to become a leader in a valuable new technology. The post WW2 US public debt crisis was resolved by the post war manufacturing boom; the USA leveraged new technology, the USA’s newly developed manufacturing skills, to grow the economy out of the wartime debt trap.

If the USA found a way to say make renewable energy work, and created an energy system which was cheaper than existing technology, the world would flock to buy a piece of US knowhow.

But there are good reasons to think this isn’t possible. Solar panels and wind are already close to theoretical efficiency. Squeezing a few percent additional efficiency is not going to significantly tip the balance in favour of renewables.

And nothing can solve the horrendous capital cost of collecting diffuse, low density renewable energy.

The Limits of Clean Energy
If the world isn’t careful, renewable energy could become as destructive as fossil fuels.


We need a rapid transition to renewables, yes—but scientists warn that we can’t keep growing energy use at existing rates. No energy is innocent. The only truly clean energy is less energy.

In 2017, the World Bank released a little-noticed report that offered the first comprehensive look at this question. It models the increase in material extraction that would be required to build enough solar and wind utilities to produce an annual output of about 7 terawatts of electricity by 2050. That’s enough to power roughly half of the global economy. By doubling the World Bank figures, we can estimate what it will take to get all the way to zero emissions—and the results are staggering: 34 million metric tons of copper, 40 million tons of lead, 50 million tons of zinc, 162 million tons of aluminum, and no less than 4.8 billion tons of iron.

In some cases, the transition to renewables will require a massive increase over existing levels of extraction. For neodymium — an essential element in wind turbines — extraction will need to rise by nearly 35 percent over current levels. Higher-end estimates reported by the World Bank suggest it could double.

The same is true of silver, which is critical to solar panels. Silver extraction will go up 38 percent and perhaps as much as 105 percent. Demand for indium, also essential to solar technology, will more than triple and could end up skyrocketing by 920 percent.

And then there are all the batteries we’re going to need for power storage. To keep energy flowing when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing will require enormous batteries at the grid level. This means 40 million tons of lithium—an eye-watering 2,700 percent increase over current levels of extraction.

Read more: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/06/the-path-to-clean-energy-will-be-very-dirty-climate-change-renewables/

The USA can survive four years of Biden. Even a USA at 130% of debt to GDP can recover, if the President you elect in 2024 is an economic literate. But the opportunity to address deep structural US economic problems without severe economic hardship for ordinary people is closing fast.

A continuance of Trump’s cheap energy manufacturing boom might have worked, though even this was not a guaranteed escape from the looming US debt trap.

The alternative, if the US government fails to address underlying economic problems, is the US government could lose control of the situation. If the USA runs out of money and creditors pull out, a painful structural economic adjustment could occur, in which ordinary people abruptly lose an estimated 30% or more of their spending power.

US government borrowing has held back the looming structural adjustment for at least 20 years, but the US government cannot defy the laws of market economics forever. There is a narrow window of opportunity to fix the problem without severe economic pain. Renewable energy is unlikely to be part of the solution.

History teaches us that even the world’s great powers eventually hit their credit limit. The road to ruin is paved with seductive but ultimately unsustainable opportunities for short term relief, like the US government’s frantic government borrowing to hold back a painful economic contraction. The other old standby is running the printing presses, to try to fill a growing hole in public finances and inflate away the debt, but we all know how that ends. Collapse is not inevitable, but if a collapse occurs it will be sudden.

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November 7, 2020 6:06 pm

The US seems to have swapped one di1khead for another….was it worth all that pain ?

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  saveenergy
November 7, 2020 8:21 pm

You’re describing pretty much all politicians. So what choice is there?

Bryan A
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
November 7, 2020 9:16 pm

Good Lord…How long does it take to count a few hundred thousand votes?
Arizona and
North Carolina
Are all still only at 95% – 98% counted
And with the exception of North Carolina where Trump is leading, Biden’s leads are between 9,000 and 37,000 votes, last minute counted votes.
When was the last time it took soooo long for people to count a few more votes?
These absentee/mail in ballots should have been tabulated as they arrived with the totals stored digitally until the poles closed then dumped into state totals as their poles closed

Reply to  Bryan A
November 8, 2020 12:38 pm

It’s not the counting that’s taking so long, it’s the manufacturing of enough ballots for Biden to refute the actual votes.

Reply to  Bryan A
November 8, 2020 6:26 pm

There are some states where absentee / mail-in ballots cannot, by law, be counted until election day. This is not an excuse, however, Florida got their counting done on election day, so everyone else can, too, IF the will exists. Make of that what you wish.

Reply to  Jeff Alberts
November 9, 2020 1:05 am

None, after looking at this….we were well warned…

Reply to  saveenergy
November 7, 2020 8:40 pm

The pain is yet to come, when the courts declare that Trump is still President and large numbers of Democrats are going to jail for election fraud.

The shrieking will become the stuff of legends, and the burning Democrat cities will truly be a sight to behold.

Larry in Texas
Reply to  MarkG
November 7, 2020 9:50 pm

I hope you are right about the courts declaring that Trump will be deemed the re-elected President, and that indictments ensue. Trump’s lawyers had better be good, and they better have good, clear and compelling evidence in support of knocking enough votes off of Biden’s totals in about five states. Because the case does not yet look compelling enough. Belief is not evidence.

Reply to  MarkG
November 8, 2020 12:21 am

There are serious levels of vote abnormality that needs to be looked at in court. For example, Arizona voted for one Democrat president in the last 60 years, and now they chose a thinly veiled BLM supporting socialist? In Georgia Obama lost with 1,800,000 votes. Today we are to believe this senile front for Marxist destruction gets 2.460,000 votes? How does any party suddenly find 36% more voters?

willem post
Reply to  MatthewSykes
November 8, 2020 1:40 pm



In Vermont, a blank ballot was mailed to each active registered voter, dead or alive, moved away or not.
Registered voters 506,312
Votes cast 372,366,

Those who received a ballot, but lost it, could obtain a new one on Election Day by signing an affidavit at their polling place.
When I arrived, early morning, on Election Day, there already were boxes with signed affidavits.

Spare Ballots: That means an extra quantity of blank ballots were printed, and available at each polling station.
Some of these ballots could be used by polling station insiders to tip close races one way or another.
It is likely, an extra quantity of blank ballots likely were kept “in reserve” elsewhere.
They likely were already filled out, to be distributed, as needed, to tip close races one way or another.

Swing States: This would especially be the case in swing states, in, such as in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Georgia, North Carolina, Nevada and Arizona.
Various irregularities have been reported in five Democrat-Big-Machine cities, such as Detroit, Mich.; Philadelphia, Pa.; Atlanta, Ga.; Milwaukee, Wis.; and Las Vegas, Nev.

The Coup d’Etat: As if orchestrated, ballot counting was halted or slowed down, about the same time, in a number of key states, starting late Tuesday, November 3, and early Wednesday, November 4.
Panic! Trump was too far ahead! Biden votes were needed to be distributed to polling centers for counting on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

A few hours later, starting about 4 am, there were steady influxes of Biden votes in Michigan, Wisconsin, etc.
Trump saw what was happening, and wanted to stop the counting. All to no avail.
Poll station monitors were not allowed to watch. Windows were being boarded up.
Call the FBI to investigate?
The FBI would be of no help, because it has been actively undermining Trump, with help of the Media, which is 93% anti-Trump.

The allegations are:

1) Mysterious ballot drops that seem to show tens of thousands of votes for Joe Biden and zero votes for President Trump,
2) Inexplicable record turnouts in late-counting counties (all Democrat-dominated) that far surpass turnouts in counties in other states where the votes were counted on a timely basis; and
3) The illegal banning of election observers in those very counties where the most outrageous anomalies were reported.

In all these states, Trump was ahead, then using the mantra “all votes must be counted”, Biden votes were appearing from various places.
Counting went on for days after the election, until Trump ended up behind, and was not elected.

Reply to  MarkG
November 8, 2020 6:44 am

Mark G
How about providing a list of Obama administration deep state leaders who went to prison for trying to prevent Trump from winning in 2016, and trying to oust him in early 2017.
I’m waiting patiently for such a list. Even a list of one person.

Bill Barr was a smooth talking fraud.

Trump fought the deep state of Democrats working in the government, and leftist bias in the mass media/social media, and the deep state and mass media/social media won.

Some of the people Trump appointed were deep state people too, such as Christopher Wray (FBI), who sat on the Hunter Biden computer hard drive contents since September 2019, and Gina Haspel (CIA) who stonewalled the Senate investigation into the origins of the Trump Russian Collusion, unjustified by any evidence, investigation (Hillary Clinton invented the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax, and John Brennan promoted it to the FBI).

Reply to  MarkG
November 8, 2020 9:54 am

Get real, GMark….it was a tight race and Biden won….get over it and get onto pointing out flaws in the logic of governance where they exist….congressional and senate near stalemates will still dictate that the federal government can actually accomplish little that is divisive. The voting public is split so close to 50/50 that whoever wears the frock of leadership must tread very lightly and close to the line of only doing what is publicly popular. A government that has to please the voters is probably a good thing, except in Democrats case, higher taxes…..As far as climate change, Biden will immediately shut down the KeystoneXL pipeline construction, since it allows Canadian Oil to compete with US oil, and let all other climate issues simmer and bubble once in a while as campaign material for the next election…..

Reply to  MarkG
November 9, 2020 1:06 am

Fuelled by this…

Reply to  saveenergy
November 8, 2020 12:18 am

330 million Americans and all you can come up with is Biden or Trump?

Reply to  AngryScotonFraggleRock
November 8, 2020 6:50 am

In just 14 words you summarized what many Americans think, but are afraid to say because people on both sides would go berserk after hearing that logical conclusion.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 8, 2020 8:21 am

I’d like to say I’m happy I’m Canadian today.
Then I look at the preening idiot we have as Prime Minister, and I will quietly defer from comment

Reply to  Pat from kerbob
November 8, 2020 1:10 pm


Reply to  AngryScotonFraggleRock
November 10, 2020 3:11 am

That’s exactly what I am asking myself for a long time.

Reply to  saveenergy
November 8, 2020 12:42 am

Actually we had a 4-year break from the last duckhead while the current President cleaned up his mess.

very old white guy
Reply to  stinkerp
November 8, 2020 5:49 am

The only positive that I can see with Biden et al in charge is that when the country collapses so will WAPO.

Steven Miller
Reply to  saveenergy
November 8, 2020 7:48 am

Last night there was the big fireworks party, etc… There is a contested election with obvious fraud seen at every level and several states with less than 1% separating the candidates… there will be lawsuits, manual recounts, and auditing of both the ballots and the envelopes. And the Democrats and media are declaring victory and putting on a huge party with fireworks and making speeches. It reaks with awkwardness and desperation. They are trying to get it all in before the hammer falls, because they know it will fall.

This is actually a blatant effort to weaken the coming 2nd term of President Trump not to win the election. To any rational person the theatrics we are witnessing only make sense if you look at it that way. They know that they can’t actually get away with dumping hundreds of thousands of faked ballots trucked in from unknown locations with no known chain of custody in the middle of the night all with only one candidate marked. That is ridiculous. They know that they can’t get away with preventing anyone who is not a Democrat activist from entering the “counting rooms”. They know that they can’t get away using a compromised computer tabulation program to shift thousands of votes from one candidate to another and call it a “glitch”. They know that their “big win”, their “mandate” is not going to come close to holding up when the ballots are recounted manually and the envelopes and ballots are subjected to scrutiny. None of that currently matters to them. This is all show and they know it. It is a huge comedy routine. It is all BS meant to weaken the President’s second term. They are not trying to beat him, they are trying to put him in his place.

Bryan A
Reply to  Steven Miller
November 8, 2020 8:28 am

The battleground states have fewer than 100,000 votes separation combined, Ga has only 9,000. The WAPO had an article Two days ago talking about how 150,000 mail in ballots were suddenly “found” undelivered sitting on various Post Office floors.
Something is screwy for sure

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  Bryan A
November 8, 2020 10:45 am

Screwy indeed…Biden just happened to win all of those nail-biters. Where he was way-behind at 2am on election night, he came back to barely win. Where he was well-ahead, he just barely held-on.

Amazing that “Russian interference” didn’t work its magic with so few votes needed to sway the election in those states.

Reply to  Steven Miller
November 8, 2020 9:27 am

@ Steven Miller I wish you were right–but Bill Barr couldn’t seem seem to hold anyone accountable for the fraud with the FBI and the Russian collusion thing–what makes you think anyone will be held accountable with this election fraud. I seems that law and order, following the rules, and clean elections are a thing of the past–and republicans LET IT HAPPEN.

Reply to  Shelly
November 8, 2020 6:43 pm

@ Shelley You may be right about Barr, but I am far from convinced, personally. The rot runs all through the upper echelons of both the civil service and the Democratic Party, with particular emphasis on the national security community. There is a very great deal to investigate, there is a distinct shortage of trustworthy investigators, there is a complex web of interconnections between individual cases, creating a need to go slow on some cases to avoid blowing others, and most of all, the fact that one political party has instigated investigations against its main rival means that any cases it does bring to trial MUST be as airtight as possible. All of these factors require that any investigations will proceed at a very deliberate pace.

Paul of Alexandria
Reply to  saveenergy
November 8, 2020 9:16 am

Trump is at least trying to stimulate the economy to catch up by reducing regulation and taxes. He can only do so much with an uncooperative House.

November 7, 2020 6:14 pm

The Huns are in the palace.

They will trash our economy and our history of individual freedom and jurisprudence.

I’d recommend holding gold, but they’ll probably confiscate that again.

Be careful who you tell the truth to.

Reply to  DocSiders
November 8, 2020 12:08 am

True. That comment by Steyer is an eye opener, I have never heard it before: “personell is policy”. You don’t need to go through the process of changing policy, all you need to do is change the people who work there.

This explains a few puzzling things where I work.

Reply to  Klem
November 8, 2020 7:18 am

It appears the Republicans will still hold the Senate. McConnell has played hardball since blocking Merrick Garland when nominated by Obama. The Senate has “advise and consent” on executive appointees. Harry Reid stated to W that he needed to talk to Harry BEFORE nominating judges. That did not really happen, but like busting the 60 vote necessity to end debate on appointments, it did set what McConnell should do: Refuse a vote on ANY leftist appointment by Biden. Require only moderates. Any comment supporting BLM should be disqualifying.

I don’t think TRUMP! did enough to clean out the swamp, but he did some, and has 2 months to try to burn out the leftists still in high places in the bureaucracy.

Mumbles McGuirck
Reply to  Drake
November 8, 2020 7:50 am

To be fair, Trump tried to drain the Swamp. But the Deep State was deep and midlevel bureaucrats slow walked a lot of his orders. FBI had tons of documents related to Russian Collusion Hoax. Trump ordered them declassified, but FBI only did 500 documents every six months or so. It’s going to take til way after the election to release them all. No doubt. Harris Administration will end this pronto before everything is out.

November 7, 2020 6:20 pm

“Solar panels and wind are already close to theoretical efficiency. Squeezing a few percent additional efficiency is not going to significantly tip the balance in favour of renewables.”

No, what it would take is a considerable improvement on battery technology, which is definitely theoretically possible. A 10x energy density improvement with 10x longevity improvement would be a game changer.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 7, 2020 6:54 pm

Won’t it be fun to have all that energy stored in local batteries. 😉

Farmer Ch retired
Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 7, 2020 8:51 pm

At Battelle one of my research projects utilized a suit-case sized capacitor to produce an electric discharge between electrodes in the soil. The system was capable of producing a pretty impressive discharge.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 7, 2020 9:16 pm

The energy storage density of supercapacitors is much lower than that of lithium batteries, though they have the virtue of being instantly responsive to charge/discharge cycling at very high power levels. They have applications, though with their low power density, those applications are quite limited.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
November 7, 2020 7:44 pm

The best battery ever developed is a nuclear fuel pellet. High energy density, safe and produces more energy than used to create it.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
November 7, 2020 8:39 pm

a10x improvement in energy density is theoretically impossible

Reply to  Leo Smith
November 7, 2020 9:41 pm

Do you have anything to back up this statement?

I wasn’t expecting room temperature superconductivity either until a month ago and we have it now. My opinion is there’s no way we’re anywhere near maximum energy density for storage. Not even close.

Dan Davis
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
November 8, 2020 10:31 am

“the superconducting compound — created by a team led by Ranga Dias of the University of Rochester — will >never< find its way into lossless power lines, frictionless high-speed trains, or any of the revolutionary technologies that could become ubiquitous if the fragile quantum effect underlying superconductivity could be maintained in truly ambient conditions.
That’s because the substance superconducts at room temperature only while being crushed between a pair of diamonds to pressures roughly 75% as extreme as those found in the Earth’s core."
OK, then…

Reply to  Dan Davis
November 8, 2020 11:33 am

The point being there was no example of it until recently. The next step is to find an example that works at much lower pressures. Never say never unless it breaks the laws of physics and even then….

Reply to  Dan Davis
November 8, 2020 5:45 pm


November 7, 2020 6:27 pm

Nothing of consequence will change.
Your money will just go to a different group of interests https://www.usdebtclock.org/

Reply to  Warren
November 8, 2020 10:49 am

Have you got a big surprise coming. Have you already forgotten the Dem debates? Have you already forgotten 4 years of attempting to get rid of Trump – nonstop? And do you think these people don’t have it in for the American countryside aka Trump Country?

I suspect you’re simply in denial.

Let me suggest that if the Dems have their way, many Americans will (eventually) end up like the Anglo Saxons after 1066 or the Irish after Cromwell’s invasion. These things happen.

J Mac
Reply to  Warren
November 8, 2020 12:43 pm

Fighting ‘Climate Change’ will devastate rural economies, dependent on fuel intensive agriculture and transportation. Fighting natural ‘Climate Change’ wastes precious resources on a non-solution to a non-problem.

November 7, 2020 6:32 pm

I hope that when Roger Pielke, Jr’s Iron Law of Climate, “while people are often willing to pay some price for achieving environmental objectives, that willingness has its limits”, kicks in people will catch on and vote the politicians supporting this virtue-signaling nonsense out. Don’t be surprised if the Democrats lose the House of Representatives if the activists get their way to implement all the climate reduction targets as soon as possible. The 2035 goal for a zero-emission electric system certainly fits that bill.

Paul Rossiter
November 7, 2020 6:32 pm

Go for it!! Double up on the Green New Deal and maybe when it all falls in a stinking heap people will finally realize that it is a pipe dream. Unfortunately, by then there will be untold misery, though that will be worst felt by the “Deplorables” so that doesn’t matter too much. The elite will be happy reveling in their green billions, with the media tightly under control feeding the masses b..l s..t.

It’s a pity that logical argument has never, through the whole passage of history, been effective in averting inevitable disaster. I guess that is what happens when you stop teaching history and clear thinking, and replace them with flower arranging studies.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Paul Rossiter
November 7, 2020 7:40 pm

Rise of the Watermelons – green on the outside, red on the inside.

Gunga Din
November 7, 2020 6:49 pm

Things won’t get better “economist” such as AOC’s answer is, “Just pay for it!”

Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 7, 2020 8:59 pm

At least we won’t need wheel barrels, as a debit card could be loaded with millions.

Gunga Din
Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 8, 2020 2:08 pm

Just stick a solar cell on it strong enough to power the ATM or cash register!
If that’s not enough, put a little windmill in it that the consumer only needs to blow on the part sticking out.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 8, 2020 2:48 pm

So with MMT, why tax anyone at all ? Just have the government print new money for ALL gov’t spending. ANSWER: because what the government prints dilutes the value of whatever was in circulation previously, and in the no-tax case the results would become obvious in year 2…..

Gunga Din
Reply to  DMacKenzie
November 8, 2020 4:34 pm

I have a legal tender $20,000,000,000 bill from Zimbabwe that is, literally, not worth the paper it was printed on.

November 7, 2020 6:51 pm

If Harris really has been elected……

Welcome, USzuela !

November 7, 2020 6:57 pm

More economic nonsense from Worfall … Debt as 100 or 130 percent of GDP is a meaningless warning sign. In general, nations with higher debt as a percentage of GDP have a slower real GDP growth rate than nations with a lower percentage. There are no other conclusions possible. You preoccupation with debt ignores the cost of that debt (average interest rate, relative to the inflation rate) and what the money is spent on.

I wouldn’t care if my government borrowed 100% of it’s revenues by selling 10 year Treasury bonds with an 0.8 percent interest rate … if the total level of government spending was a lot lower than today. With fewer regulations too.

This is a rare time in history when it is wise for governments to borrow money at historically low interest rates. What they do with the money is another story.

Japan’s debt as a percentage of GDP was 214 percent as of the quarter ended June 2020. They seem to be surviving at WAY OVER 130 percent of GDP, even with the population declining … and sales of adult diapers exceeding sales of children’s diapers.

“Trump” cut taxes a lot, and spent money like a drunken sailor on shore leave — it’s hard to imagine another president expanding the US debt even faster. Trump would have “spent” a lot more if nasty Nancy Pelosi wanted more COVID welfare before the election. Congress approves the spending, of course, but I didn’t see Trump vetoing spending bills to control government spending.

George W. Bush approved medicare Part D, which was about 85% government subsidized the last time I looked.

Obama added ObamaCare subsidized medical insurance.

It seems that EVERY president adds more, or expands existing, transfer programs, whether Democrat or Republican. Democrat Billy Clinton did try to reduce welfare spending when he wasn’t chasing young female interns. But then O’Bummer managed to reverse that effort. Trump gave us COVID welfare — the biggest welfare program of them all.

Bryan A
Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 7, 2020 10:34 pm

I wonder if Richard accepted his CoVid Welfare payment or if he returned it to government coffers

Reply to  Bryan A
November 8, 2020 6:59 am

Brain A:
I accepted our $2,400 of COVID payments, although we didn’t need them, or want them, but did spent them, on office supplies (gin, vermouth, olives and a serving wench). My mother taught me to always accept free money, because children were starving in Europe. She said that about eating Brussel’s sprouts too.

Bryan A
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 7, 2020 10:32 pm

Would you rather President Trump had NOT allowed the Government to help out it’s citizens and simply allowed them all to go broke? Or perhaps you would have preferred that no CoVid lockdowns had happened in the first place, perhaps at the cost of additional hundreds of thousands of lives.
I know, I know they’re all old and weak people anyway, just sponges on society right??

Reply to  Bryan A
November 8, 2020 2:21 am

Do you have any evidence the lockdowns have worked? Or have they merely delayed the deaths? I strongly suspect the latter.

Reply to  Graemethecat
November 8, 2020 3:05 am

well Victoria in Aus is now 9 days deats free and no new cases
so unless our quarantine screwa up again we seem to be doing ok
keeping bans on international travel and not importing foriegn students and workers would keep it tidy

Bryan A
Reply to  ozspeaksup
November 8, 2020 8:14 am

I applaud your States efforts and hope you do manage to kick it’s butt

Reply to  Bryan A
November 8, 2020 7:11 am

Many of the younger working people faced a disease, that for them, was no more dangerous than a typical seasonal influenza. Older retired people like me and the wife were most at risk. Many nations handled the pandemic much better than us. Sweden is not one of them.

There are still 22 million Americans collecting state or federal unemployment insurance, with “throwing money” at the problem still the only government “solution”. The economic and health damage from the mandated partial lockdowns has not been accurately reported — it certainly prevented Trump’s reelection. Rich people, unaffected companies, and fake companies who got “free COVID money or loans”, if known to he general public, would have shocked them.

Bryan A
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 8, 2020 8:23 am

My 60 year old Brother faced the disease and it put him in the hospital for 3 weeks. His whole house (3 others were also sick and tightly quarantined) He lost his fight but his housemates recovered.
A 38 year old coworker of mine was also diagnosed 2 weeks ago and hospitalized. He leaves behind a Wife, 2 young children and 1 on the way.
Trump (keep fighting for this election) like you likely had the less destructive version (there are multiple variations) and recovered quickly.

HD Hoese
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 8, 2020 8:56 am

Obamacare also had a not so hidden‘Eugenics’ policy, not the genetic science application to humans still medically in use, but its politicization. Learned about Eugenics in freshman biology long ago, lot worse outcome than Piltdown. It gave rise to the Tea Parties, check out the “Complete Lives System.” Age, youngest and oldest, not covered as “pre-existing” conditions.

“Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions, The Lancet, 373,[2009]:423-431.” In their “Department of Ethics” section. Also borrowing with low interest rates produce outcomes (structures and programs)that require considerably more expense than interest. Where I live one such with that excuse was just shot down, required a petition, politicians [R after their names] told us basically that we didn’t understand. Similar thing to University grant money.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 8, 2020 10:49 am

“…I wouldn’t care if my government borrowed 100% of it’s revenues…”

The countries loaning us the money do.

Erast Van Doren
Reply to  Richard Greene
November 8, 2020 11:42 am

“Democrat Billy Clinton did try to reduce welfare spending when he wasn’t chasing young female interns.”

That was Gingrich, not Clinton.

Reply to  Erast Van Doren
November 8, 2020 3:16 pm

EraseVanDoofus: Clinton signed the law, which was very unusual for a Democrat. That was the surprise. Any other Democrat would have zapped it with a veto. Rrepublicabs trying to reduce welfare spending is not news.

November 7, 2020 7:05 pm

“ if the President you elect in 2024.. “
It’s not up to us anymore, I don’t think. If we make the wrong choice, they’re ready to fix it for us.

[awesome disposable VALID email btw -mod]

William deLorimier
November 7, 2020 7:33 pm

Nuclear all the way! Solar and wing are totally inefficient and not financially feasible.

November 7, 2020 8:02 pm

I doubt any changes to our/US current living will be felt by a GND despite all the hype otherwise. If the GND survives past 4 years without being watered down I’d be surprised. Once business and the unions realize how much it will hurt their bottom line they’ll complain and get their way. Right now it’s all virtue signaling. Wait until the removal of fossil fuel income from the economy is felt in dollars and employment.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 8, 2020 7:42 am

Okay Wormall — now you did it. You made sense. Make American like the current California seems to be the leftist goal. And not the old California where a Republican could become the governor.

I have proposed selling California to Australia for $24.
We’ll pay them $24 to take it.

We’ll cut if off the rest of the 48 states, and haul it to Australia with tugboats. I’m working on a plan. Most of my family moved from New York to California in the 1990s and now even they have moved out to other states.

I frequently write about California and Governor Gruesome in my climate science blog. Not to complement him, or the state. Two friends still living there (we don’t know why) keep us up to date on what else has gone downhill lately.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 8, 2020 8:26 am

I’m all for making the US like California if it includes coastal California’s sunny, warm climate. Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. I hope Biden isn’t so senile as to believe that solar will work in northerly areas where it’s cloudy for much of the winter, the sun is at a low angle, and there is only four hours of productive sunlight during a winter day.

Bryan A
Reply to  markl
November 7, 2020 10:40 pm

Wait until everyone will be required to buy EV’s and dispose of their ICE cars. Even Hybrids will be a foolish investment. Once Fossil Fuels are eliminated as an energy option, plug-in hybrids will simply be super expensive vehicles with ultra limited ranges (+/- 35 miles round trip)

Izaak Walton
November 7, 2020 8:41 pm

It is nice to see republicans returned to beat a broken drum. All we ever heard
when Obama was President was “debt, debt, debt” and the need for a balanced
budget. But when Trump was President and cut taxes while simultaneously massively increasing the military budget there was not a wimper. Now all of a sudden Eric is back with three posts in two days warning about the dangers of debt.

Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 8, 2020 8:03 am

More Worfall economic nonsense:
“Trump” ran up the federal debt faster than any president after World War Ii, starting BEFORE the pandemic, and would have added another $2 trillion of debt for COVID welfare if Nasty Nancy Pelosi had agreed to that before the 2020 election.

Lowering corporate taxes increased deficit spending in the long run.

I don’t see how Trump kept oil prices low — they were in the $50 to $75 range from January 2017 through January 2020 — the first three Trump years.

How is $50 to $75 “low” ?

Oil prices were LOWER (under $50) from September 2015 to August 2016, when O’Bummer was president.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
November 8, 2020 7:27 am

Izaaaaaak. this libertarian sees exactly what you described in your 8:41 pm
Deficits are bad only when the President is from the other party.

November 7, 2020 8:53 pm

“You look at where California is now going, the Federal Government needs to get there.“ Californians are now moving to Texas and elsewhere. Where will all those American head to?

Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
November 7, 2020 9:24 pm

And after the folks moving to Texas from California, Oregon and Washington “fix” it so it is more like the states they’ve left, then where will they move? Not one of them has done a causal analysis on why they left California/Oregon/Washington, else they wouldn’t be trying to make over Texas.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
November 7, 2020 10:01 pm

I guess I’d better turn my 2.5 acres into a farm and become more self-sufficient.

Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
November 7, 2020 11:17 pm

Poor Texas… Is it next to the turned into a socialist junk heap ?

November 7, 2020 9:49 pm

Manufacturers vote much better than people.
They vote with returns on investment, which is why they don’t want to invest in energy rich, unstable, Russia, but are more than happy to relocate in Shenzhen or Mumbai.

Best to look at the economy of Italy.
Debt is the No 1 reason why Italy is bankrupt, has lost most of its manufacturing and why most of its “glamour” culture is actually based in lower tax Switzerland.
High costs & high tax go with higher debt, as France has proven time and time again.

Once the message has passed to those that matter, people only buy a uber-high German cost car made there because of image,- otherwise dead happy to get a Lexus.

Soon Jaguar won’t even have an office in the former car centres of the midlands, and Aston will be another “has been” Mercedes with a funny badge.
Most of the UK is now foreign owned.
Industry is leaving Germany in droves because of the price of electricity, (eg. to nearby Poland etc).

Driving away incentives and pushing up costs simply exports US & EU jobs to PRC and India.

Reply to  pigs_in_space
November 8, 2020 12:06 am

you are aware JLR is 100% renewable powered, right?


and that isn’t just some woolly ‘purchase’ agreement – their factories have huge solar panel installations – e.g. this one.

Most UK car factories have extensive solar.

If JLR move, it will be Brexit tariffs, not renewable energy, which moves them

Bryan A
Reply to  Eric Worrall
November 8, 2020 8:44 am

As long as they’re still connected to the multi-sourced grid, they won’t be 100% renewable, their electrons are coming from every possible grid source, including coal, gas and nuclear. The 100% is only on paper.

Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 1:39 am

“100% renewable powered”


They use STEEL, PLASTIC, ALUMINIUM….. you name it ,


Solar NON-power.. are you daft !!!

Are you saying hey stop production on cloudy days, and only work 4-5 hours a day in winter, even on sunny days?? !!

Seems you have been either GULLIBLY IGNORANT, yet again

or you are LYING through your teeth ,, yet again !!

Reply to  fred250
November 8, 2020 8:17 am

Another Griff “comment”, obviously written by our beloved Moderator Charles Rotten, has its intended effect on FRED 250.5. Mr. Rotten was laughing so hard he fell off his “office” bar stool. His able-bodied “secretary”, Bambi Galore, got a few wolf whistles when she bent over to pick him up off the floor. Just like the day before.

There is an office building in Southfield, Michigan, three miles from where I live, that has small “wind turbines” on the roof, or maybe they are just blades that give the illusion of being small wind turbines. They obviously could not supply much electricity because they are usually not moving. But they are the ultimate virtue signal. I believe the building is mainly law offices.

Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 2:25 am

Jaguar factory on NIGHT TIME solar power…


You are such a GULLIBLE little chimp, griff. !!

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 8:35 am

Siemens is planning to move motor production out of Germany, closing the Berlin plant that opened in the 1850s I think.

Intermittent power is so awesome

Bryan A
Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 8:37 am

I can Guarantee you that Jaguar and Land Rover are still dependant on Coal to produce their products. They still produce Steel sided vehicles on steel frames and Steel requires Coal for its production. Without coal, steel is simply the far weaker Iron (wrought or cast). Even EVs require steel manufactured with Coal for their major components.

Reply to  Bryan A
November 8, 2020 4:08 pm

“Without coal, steel is simply the far weaker Iron (wrought or cast).”

Cast iron contains more carbon than does steel(circa double or three times), but the amount in both is way less than the amount of carbon needed to reduce the iron oxide ore to elemental iron. I suppose that hydrogen could be used as the reducing agent but the cost would be way higher than carbon use. It’s not going to happen.

Doc Chuck
November 7, 2020 11:09 pm

Has anyone else noticed the astonishing similarity of the Gross Domestic Product percentage graph to the Global Average temperature graph over the 20th century and beyond — even to the terminating projected ‘hockey stick’ soaring heavenward? Just what have so many economists been missing about the applications of meteorology to their area of pecuniary interest all this time to account for the likes of this?!!

Reply to  Doc Chuck
November 8, 2020 4:30 am

I noticed. Then moved on.

Shame about all those 3rd generation nuclear power stations that did not get built because activism.

Bryan A
Reply to  Doc Chuck
November 8, 2020 8:48 am

The blade is obviously projecting Biden induced GND debt

November 8, 2020 12:23 am

Or it is just lip service. We will see. DOnt forget, Trump took the uncomfortable, but financially wise decisions. Why would they not prevaricate and dither about undoing them? They will try to rejoin the Paris accord, it costs nothing, it hasnt got any teeth and is pure virtue signalling. But are they really going to stop fracking and lose their oil independence?

November 8, 2020 1:51 am

If I was a US citizen I would pray that the mediocre Biden (mentally & physically) lasts his full four year term, but that might be in vain. Meanwhile the afro-indian tiger Harris is waiting on her chance to pounce.

Reply to  Vuk
November 8, 2020 3:02 am

yeah you could hope
I suspect bidet wont last a year before she takes over

Mumbles McGuirck
Reply to  ozspeaksup
November 8, 2020 8:00 am

I have 3 months in the pool. Just long enough to not be unseemly, but short enough that Biden doesn’t get comfortable in his Oval Office chair.

Reply to  Vuk
November 8, 2020 3:30 am

Not to mention that according to NY times, the AOC and “the squad” are back. Watch out, ‘you ain’t seen nothing yet’
You’ve gotta devil women
They gona take your rights away
They said you had it coming to you
But did you wanted it that way ?

elisa berg
Reply to  Vuk
November 8, 2020 6:36 am

Biden won’t make it as president until next summer. He’ll be shuffled off to somewhere, maybe Boca Raton, either by acquiescence or the 25th amendment. The Dems had better and more attractive candidates—that guy from Indiana whose name I can’t spell and Andrew Yang, for examples. Biden was always a proxy. He wasn’t presidential material in his hayday and was always kind of a nasty piece of work.

Reply to  elisa berg
November 8, 2020 4:20 pm

He wasn’t presidential material in his hayday and was always kind of a nasty piece of work.

Biden never had a hayday in his life; hay making is hard work(well it was when we hand loaded the bales on to trucks and trailers). Biden has never done a day’s work in his life. Like Jacinda Ardern he has been a lifetime leech.

Reply to  Vuk
November 8, 2020 8:08 am

I’m not so sure about Harris making the decisions when Biden’s dementia becomes so bad he can’t do it. When Woodrow Wilson had his stroke it was his wife who signed all the bills and made the decisions.

Reply to  Michael
November 8, 2020 4:24 pm

“When Woodrow Wilson had his stroke it was his wife who signed all the bills and made the decisions.”

Yup, and for Reagan it was his wife’s astrologer(but Reagan still did the signing).

I expect Biden to be gone in a few months.

November 8, 2020 2:05 am

Leftist didn’t take control of the Senate, so Biden’s level of fiscal harm he can cause from wasteful spending on CAGW has been limited (providing he is even declared the winner).

He also won’t be able to do much of anything, except pass some meaningless Executive Orders, which will be rescinded in 2024…

Leftist pollsters (aka propagandists) were predicting Leftists would gain a Super Majority (60 seats) in the Senate, and greatly increase the number House seats, but, alas, their predictions had no semblance of reality with the GOP keeping their Senate majority and gaining around 14 seats in the House (number to be confirmed in runoff elections).

Reply to  SAMURAI
November 8, 2020 8:27 am

Leftists could have 50 Senators after the Georgia runoff elections. 50 Democrat Senators plus a Democrat Vice president can be a majority. I expect billions of dollars to be “invested” in that runoff election — Democrats will be handing out $100 bills 100 feet from the voting machines

Reply to  SAMURAI
November 8, 2020 10:55 am

You’re making the same kinds of arguments that German pols made after Hitler became Chancellor. Oh, we have more seats in the cabinet than the Nazis, etc. etc. We all know how that worked out.

Erast Van Doren
Reply to  SAMURAI
November 8, 2020 11:45 am

Collins, Murkowski and Romney are not really republican.

November 8, 2020 2:33 am

“You look at where California is now going, the federal government needs to get there.”

Could you be more stupid? I dont think so

Joseph Zorzin
November 8, 2020 3:07 am

“And nothing can solve the horrendous capital cost of collecting diffuse, low density renewable energy. ”

Not just capital cost- we continually fail to account for the loss of ecosystem values. Here in Mass., several thousand acres of prime forest land has been utterly destroyed in the past 5 years to install solar “farms”. The resulting loss of ecosystem values is never counted. If those value were counted- the true cost of these “farms” could be determined. The greens say we must stop carbon emissions to save the planet, to save the species, to save mankind. But paving over vast acreages of forest with solar “farms” is exactly the damage they claim they want to prevent. This hypocrisy isn’t mentioned often enough by conservatives. I mention it here in Massachusetts every day to politicians, state officials, enviro groups, etc. but of course my comments are ignored because Massachusetts is the most politically correct state in the nation- even beyond CA. Of course, when I ask which of the folks who love solar energy want a solar “farm” next to their home- I get no responses.

November 8, 2020 3:12 am

activist posts been knocked off by paypal
with bidet in the censorship of sites like this, and many others who question and want free discussion..
are at increased risk
because zuck IS fervently pro dem donated millions and was censoring along with the twits etc before the elections
its NOT going to improve
as for the media…being the ones to announce the supposed bidet win before votes are all counted AND while legal challenges are underway???
wtf moments
whats the obscene rush for?
as swear in and takeover isn till january is it?

Phil Salmon
November 8, 2020 4:13 am

If the USA was only going to sabotage its own economy by Khmer Vert green extremism that would be one thing. But of course it won’t stop there, that will only be the start. The US will now become the “First Order” of a new global green imperialism. Already they are talking about punishing Australia for being too pale green in their politics, and that’s the model. Worldwide, Pompeo-like thuggery and mafia intimidation will become the norm, nations insufficiently sincere in their praise of the new green deal Nero violin-playing will be crucified for all the world to see. The age of green imperialism has been launched by the election of the Biden-puppet and the eco fascist juggernaut for which he is merely the bumper teddy.


Reply to  Phil Salmon
November 8, 2020 4:14 pm

The new way to improve your economy is by economically punishing others countries using phoney green holier-than-thou regulations…standard greenmunist strategy to impose their will on others.

Coach Springer
November 8, 2020 6:53 am

Remember, there is more than one way to turn energy policy in the opposite direction. Most of the commenters are on the subject of competing superiority or what will prove best production wise and economically.

That is not what we are poised for. All they have to do is wreck fossil fuels ( and nuclear). We will be forced to the Green New Deal regardless of any pros or cons or of all pros or cons. Fracking is way more than just jobs. And the Obama-ites are kicking themselves and promising they won’t let that happen this time.

November 8, 2020 7:08 am

Totally wrong. https://stopthesethings.com/2020/10/11/impossible-dream-why-promise-of-all-wind-sun-powered-future-is-complete-nonsense/ Can’t work. Future problems. .https://stopthesethings.com/2020/09/15/grinding-halt-germanys-wind-industry-faces-armageddon-as-turbine-running-costs-escalate/ Never mind all the waste of said policies. https://stopthesethings.com/2020/09/12/how-green-is-this-millions-of-toxic-solar-panels-wind-turbine-blades-destined-for-landfill/ The total restructuring of the US would cost 29 Trillion!!. And that’s for starters. Never mind the complete takeover of the US energy generation, distribution grid. Restructuring of ~ 4 million buildings for super energy efficiency. Smart meters to turn you off when they don’t have enough power. What a glorious future.

Reply to  RT
November 8, 2020 8:26 am

And yet Germany manages to get 50% of its electricity from renewables and Spain well over 40% and so on.

John Garrett
Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 9:46 am

Unreliably and at 3× the cost, dummkopf.

Phil Salmon
Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 10:35 am

Both Germany and California have gigantic wealth from export to monopolised markets. They can afford self-righteous eco-playthings.

Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 11:46 am

is Spain still getting solar energy at night ?

Wind and solar only provided 6.4% of their primary energy in 2019

comment image?itok=rikANQTY

73% of Spain’s primary energy in 2019 was from Fossil Fuels


Bryan A
Reply to  griff
November 8, 2020 7:59 pm

Well fortunately for Germany they still get 50% of their electricity from reliables

Not Chicken Little
November 8, 2020 8:43 am

One thing’s for sure – we have not yet reached “peak stupidity” but will surely advance a long long way in that direction under Slow Joe!

Teddy Lee
November 8, 2020 11:57 am

Well worth seeing! Vote rigging ,how to spot telltale signs. From the bbc !!!!!!!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-Africa 37243190 dated 2sept 2016.
It’s the US a election to a tee.

November 8, 2020 12:39 pm

Tell me, are they still cutting down trees to print that rag?

November 8, 2020 1:43 pm

The problem is the climate does not care who is President of the US. The Climate is influenced by the President exactly as much as it is influenced by me. Not measurable.

Gunga Din
November 8, 2020 2:09 pm

Just stick a solar cell on it strong enough to power the ATM or cash register!
If that’s not enough, put a little windmill in it that the consumer only needs to blow on the part sticking out.

Gunga Din
Reply to  Gunga Din
November 8, 2020 2:40 pm
November 8, 2020 2:11 pm

100% GDP debt is bad. The European experience suggests 130% gets really bad. Greece entered the 2009 Global Financial Crisis with 130% debt, a debt which rapidly ballooned.

The reason Greece was in strife is because they gave away their authority to issue money. Government debt in the currency they issue is not a problem. It just means there is a lot of money held privately or by other countries.

When interest rates go negative, debt becomes a money earner. Denmark already has negative interests rates. Banks are willing to pay people interest if they take their money for a house mortgage. Japan has negative interest rates but I do not know if banks are offering money for people to take out loans.

Interest is simply a measure of people’s propensity to spend. Old people do not spend much. Most old people have savings that they rely on for living expenses. Negative interest rates are a fact of life for ageing populations.

Basically people are willing to pay banks to look after their wealth rather than keeping it in their mattress or in a hole in the back yard.

I had a friend who could not grasp the concept of negative interest rates until I pointed out his exposure if he backed his Beemer up to the local bank and started stuffing millions into the trunk. For a starter he would have to arrange the bank to have that much cash available. Then the authorities would be awfully suspicious of what he planned to do with the cash. He would need to be very careful that no one saw what he was doing because he would be a soft target. He eventually agreed that he would be prepared to pay the bank a small fee to keep account of his wealth and keep it safe.

November 8, 2020 5:43 pm

“Cheap energy and a return of manufacturing to the USA could have cut the baked in deficit, by stemming the ongoing haemorrhage of cash to foreign trading partners.”

No. There is no trade deficit. Dollars out have to equal dollars in unless someone is burning dollar bills. There is no hemorrhage of cash to foreign trading partners. This is one of the most basic Econ 101 principles. Read Henry Hazlitt’s “Economics in One Lesson”.

Killer Marmot
November 8, 2020 8:58 pm

“You look at where California is now going, the federal government needs to get there.”

Ominous words indeed.

November 9, 2020 4:48 am

Only in the USA would you find people who would vote for some doddery old chap who has TWICE had brain surgery. America soiled itself today

November 9, 2020 9:09 am

Can someone point me to the unbiased details about the Paris Global warming agreement. How much will it cost the US? Who will get the money. What will the US have to really do? What will China have to do and by what year?
Will fracking be effected? Will our Nat Gas production be effected? Will the US be more dependent on other countries for key raw materials? What will be the cost of recycling used renewable energy sources?
Is it possible to get all the FACTS published so the people can make good Lomg term decisions?

I appreciate further info on the above. Ultimately I think it would be useful for discussion to have the pros and cons in some concise but factual articles


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