Hopeful: Summary of Wuhan #Coronavirus Therapies and Potential Cures

Guest post by Rud Istvan,

In the 3/19 Wuhan virus briefing with the FDA, team Trump made much of the possibilities for two therapeutic candidates, chloroquine and remdesivir. Having now done informed basic research on both, I found their stories intrinsically interesting, while enabling an early assessment of their chances of success. Hence this hopeful guest post.

Background

Wuhan coronavirus is an enveloped positive sense single strand RNA virus, meaning its core genetic RNA code is just one long chain coding directly for several proteins, surrounded first by a protective viral protein capsid coat, and then a lipid membrane ‘envelope’ from which project so called “E” (for envelope) and “S” (for spike) proteins. The S protein is what the virus uses to bind to and then invade the lung’s epithelial cells in order to hijack those cell’s reproductive machinery to make copies of itself using its RNA polymerase, itself encoded in about 2/3 of the core viral genetics. The newly assembled virions that then bud out to infect new cells also eventually kill the infected epithelial cell. Covid 19 disease is caused both by the death of those cells and the immune system’s eventual response to the infection.

The S spikes are also the reason this virus class is named corona, because the spikes make it look under SEM like the virus is wearing a crown.

Chloroquine

These are actually two closely related anti-malarials, hydroxychloroquine (the small French trial) and chloroquine phosphate (the larger Chinese trial). Both were developed in the 1950’s, and interestingly the main use now is to treat rheumatoid arthritis rather than malaria (which evolved resistance).

The discovery that certain classes of anti-malarials also affect rheumatoid arthritis (RA) was made quite by accident in 1951 by an asute doctor treating malaria in an RA patient. The problem then was the side effects of chronic RA use made them unacceptable for RA. The chloroquines were developed expressly as ‘milder’ side effect anti-malarials, and in the mid to late 1950’s there were a number of papers (I reviewed several for this post) reporting good RA safety and efficacy leading to global approvals for that indication.

The mechanism of chloroquine action on RA has long been well known. It increases a cell’s lysosomal pH. (Lysosomes are membrane bound cellular organelles [think tiny balloons inside the cell floating at a lower pH in the higher pH cytosol] containing about 50 enzymes, discovered and named in 1955.) This in turn changes their ‘leaked’ enzyme balance into the cytosol, which then inhibits the cell’s RA tissue antigen signaling, which in turn reduces the immune system’s attack on the RA tissue, slowing (but usually not stopping) progression of RA tissue damage.

The reason the Chinese and then the French thought to use chloroquine against Wuhan coronavirus is this same mechanism of action, albeit with different sequelae. The viral S protein binds to the epithelial cell wall’s angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor. Raising lysosomal pH changes (via indirect enzymatic action) the ‘shape’ of ACE2 enough that the S protein cannot bind to it, thus preventing cell infection. Chloroquine changes the cell ‘lock’ so the viral ‘key’ doesn’t work. Does not undo damage from infected cells, nor prevent an infected person from shedding existing viable virus, but does stop the spread in an infected person’s body—a promising therapeutic for those testing positive.

Since safety is well known (the main side affect is retinopathy [vision problems] in 25% of patients over 50 that resolves [slowly] after discontinuation), the main FDA legal issue (FDCA Act of 1906 as amended) issue is to determine dosing and duration for this new indication. But for starters, the standard RA 250mg once a day generic cheap pill should suffice for emergency use authorization (EUA). As a ‘Big Pharma’ goodwill gesture, today (3/19) Bayer announced it donated 3 million 250mg chloroquine phosphate pills to the US to get started.

Remdesivir

This is a novel antiviral from Gilead that has a somewhat checkered past. It was originally developed for Ebola, where in African trials a few years ago it was shown reasonably safe but not very effective. It did, however, show efficacy against SARS and MERS in vitro. And, importantly, the NEJM reported a positive case outcome in Seattle patient zero under a compassionate use exception. The patient had visited Wuhan, returned to Seattle, began displaying symptoms, and was hospitalized on symptom day 3. By symptom day 8 X-ray showed clear lower respiratory tract viral pneumonia (diagnostic ‘ground glass’) and supplemental oxygen was started. Patient worsened, and intravenous antibiotics were started day 9. Patient worsened (proving viral pneumonia), so attending physicians consulted with FDA then had Gilead rush the experimental drug by air, with intravenous treatment starting day 10. Patient improved in 24 hours, was saved, and has since been discharged. For those interested, there is this NEJM case report providing a very hopeful proof of principle.

The reason Gilead tested it against SARS and MERS even though those two episodes died out naturally has to do with Remdesivir’s novel mechanism of action. The ‘drug’ is just an analog of the amino acid adenosine, one of the 20 amino acid (only, in all life on Earth, proving a common genetic ancestor) building blocks the viral polymerase uses to ‘assemble’ new copies of the viral RNA genetic code. The polymerase does not recognize the small difference between adenosine and the analog. Flood an infected cell with enough remdesivir molecules, and the polymerase will eventually grab one and add it to the ‘building’ RNA copy. Remdesivir is enough different that the polymerase is then blocked from adding any more amino acids to the RNA chain, so viral replication halts. Neat very basic molecular genetics provided at a basic science 101 level.

What Gilead scientists recognized was that the RNA code for Ebola RNA polymerase was very similar to SARS and MERS RNA polymerase, hence the in vitro testing. And when the Chinese first published the roughly 30,000 base RNA code for Wuhan coronavirus in January, it was evident immediately that it was another good RNA polymerase match, so they started immediate in vitro testing once viral samples were in hand.

Aside from price (Gilead is infamous for its Hep C cure that ‘only’ costs about $100,000 per treated patient), and scaled up availability (none yet, same issue that killed my 3 of 4 EUA for a persistent hand sanitizer in the 2009 swine flu pandemic), there are questions about dosing and treatment timing. There is some thought that remdesivir may not be useful past symptom day 10 or 11, typically when a patient worsens to need an ICU ventilator. The concern logic is simple. Remdesivir blocks virion replication in an infected cell, but not its spread to newly infected cells by virions from previously infected cells. So basically a quantity/quality argument saying eventually blocking further spread when you already need a ventilator for viral pneumonia is futile. Those clinical questions are why China is conducting a double blind (drug/placebo) trial on ~790 patients in Beijing and Gilead is conducting an unblinded smaller trial in the US, starting in Nebraska with Diamond Princess patients. The first results from both will be available sometime in April.

Further observations

Neither chloroquine nor remdesivir are just luck. The rapidity of their development against Wuhan virus reflects the enormously powerful insights that molecular genetics and molecular biology and their associated tools (sequencing, PCR, oligomer synthesis, protein structure) now bring to science and medicine. To echo the contrasts to climate science in my first post on Wuhan, this is as if we actually had now the computational power to avoid parameterization in climate models. Climatologists do not, but virologists do.

Chloroquine probably works, as AW previously posted. It would solve this pandemic’s key issue, progression to viral pneumonia requiring ICU ventilation. New York’s Governor Cuomo said yesterday that he has been told that without ‘bending the curve’ based on Italy, New York will require 27000 ventilators in a few weeks when the state only has 3000. Invoking the Defense Procurement Act cannot solve that mismatch in time without a ‘bent curve’ achieved via social distancing, frequent hand washing, and avoiding touching the mouth, nose, and eyes. All three are difficult but not impossible. Ambassador Dr. Birx is pretty clear about the dire consequences of Millennials ignoring these basic common sense recommendations during Spring Break this week in Florida. Here in ground zero Fort Lauderdale, our public beaches are closed, and the closure is policed.

But chloroquine still has the same Wuhan issue illustrated by its previous use for malaria–evolving resistance. RNA viruses like Wuhan coronavirus mutate rapidly (explained in my first post on this topic). The most conserved protein is necessarily the RNA polymerase. We know this from influenza, where it is the hemagglutinin and neuraminidase envelope proteins (equivalent to Wuhan S) that mutate so the annual vaccine is never ‘right’. Chloroquine may well be effective now, but if Wuhan coronavirus becomes endemic (now likely given its spread in Africa and Southeast Asia), then it is not a long-term solution like a vaccine. But it will probably buy the precious time to get a vaccine.

Remdesivir may be a longer-term therapeutic solution, because it tricks the conserved RNA polymerase. But its cost and efficacy remain to be determined.

0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

507 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Ron Richey
March 21, 2020 8:36 am

Rud,
Thanks.
I didn’t get most of the words.
But I got the picture.
Ron Richey

mutt
March 21, 2020 8:46 am

Virologist Tells World Leaders to Calm Unnecessary Panic over ‘Exaggerated’ Coronavirus
http://www.yourdestinationnow.com/2020/03/most-of-those-infected-wont-even-know.html?m=1

Roger Welsh
March 21, 2020 12:04 pm

A can anyone explain the difference between this Whuhan corona virus and other corona viruses, all of which have been around a long time?

John Tillman
Reply to  Roger Welsh
March 21, 2020 1:33 pm

This differences might not be exclusive, but is important in Wuhan’s infectiousness. As you may know, coronaviruses are spherical, with knobby spikes which give the group its name.

Wuhan (SARS-CoV-2) is closely related to the virus that caused the South China outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in 2002-03.

In Wuhan virus, the “hook” part of the spike has evolved to target a receptor on the outside of human cells called ACE2, which is involved in blood pressure regulation. This makes the spike proteins effective at attaching to human cells.

John Tillman
Reply to  Roger Welsh
March 21, 2020 1:41 pm

Although some believe that Wuhan virus was engineered in the bioweapons lab there, rather than evolving naturally via bats and pangolins or other intermediary mammal.

If it evolved without human intervention, then it remains to be seen whether the hook mutation occurred in the presumed pangolin or other mammalian intemediate host, or in a human.

ferdberple
Reply to  John Tillman
March 21, 2020 4:19 pm

From my limited investigation, the “hook” in SARS2 is not found in coronaviruses but is known to make other families of viruses more pathogenic.

John Tillman
Reply to  ferdberple
March 21, 2020 4:47 pm

It’s a newly observed mutation in the SARS group, but frequent mutation is SOP for RNA viruses. I don’t know whether the same or similar mutations have occurred in other coronaviruses, but given the vastness of time and frequency of mutations in such a small genome, I’d be surprised if it hadn’t happened before.

I can’t rule out its having been engineered in a lab, but IMO odds are against it. The suggestion that it was transferred from another group of viruses, such as HIV retroviruses, IMO doesn’t hold water, since they don’t have spikes. More like bumps. And are retroviruses, which coronas aren’t, albeit RNA.

ren
March 21, 2020 1:12 pm

You have to tell the truth. We don’t have a medicine that destroys the Covid-19 virus. You can only count on your antibodies. Take care of your immunity.

Reply to  ren
March 21, 2020 1:57 pm

They may not destroy, but stops their replication and so tp spread.
So why are you lying ?

Reply to  Krishna Gans
March 21, 2020 3:12 pm

Ren is one of those people who say things because they do not understand slightly complex concepts.

Ren: The drug enables Zn to enter cells, which drastically interrupts the virus RNA process, which drastically slows and stops new growth.

This is not in contrast to the other thing called immune response, which is needed to combat the virus. Or to make it simple for you. That a drug can harm the virus in no way implies there is no need for an immune response.

In conclusion: Your claim of a lie reveals your complete misunderstanding of simple things laid out for you. Further, when dumb people call smart people dumb, it’s actually quite revealing.

Charles Higley
Reply to  Krishna Gans
March 21, 2020 3:38 pm

We know that there are antiviral drugs now, particularly for RNA viruses as they have to have enzymes that we lack and we can interfere with those enzymes. Also, we know how to interfere with the proteins that viruses use to bind to cells. This was the strategy for cleaning out HIV. Flood the body with chemicals that occupy the virus binding sites and they simply cannot reproduce and then be eliminated. It works quite well.

Chloroquine, an antimalarial used for years, has been known to be effective against coronaviruses since 2005. We just have been unimaginative in applying it as a prophylactic or as a treatment.

Do not be myopic. There is a lot out there you do not know. I am indeed learning every day.

Reply to  Charles Higley
March 22, 2020 6:02 pm

“Chloroquine, an antimalarial used for years, has been known to be effective against coronaviruses since 2005.”

If by “known to be”, you mean “thought by some researchers to possibly be”, I agree with you

Of course, other researchers have shown that in animal models, the drug may help but only for the effect of acting as an anti inflammatory, and that it does not inhibit viral reproduction.
Large numbers of people used the drug over many decades, all over the world.
Many of those places have viral disease that are severe and endemic.
Almost everyplace has occasional outbreaks of viral disease.
Does it not seem odd that no one has ever shown that when people take chloroquine, they are immune to certain viral infections, or are cured of if they already have one?
I find that odd.
I am agnostic on whether and how much it will be shown to help, and when, and by how much, and if it is superior to other things that perform the various functions…inhibiting viral replication, modulating down immune response, acting as an anti-inflammatory, halting cytokine storm…even better that either chloroquine or hydroxychoroquine.

Also this thought: There are closely related compounds for treating malaria that are preferred in most cases over chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine. Has anyone tried any of them?
If they are better at treating malaria, and some are safer, might it not also be the case that they are better antivirals or anti-inflammatory drugs?

Study data that contradicts an antiviral effect in animals for chloroquine:

https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/020620/could-an-old-malaria-drug-help-fight-the-new-coron
Many more confirm this finding. Known? Not really.
Suspected at best.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
March 22, 2020 6:04 pm

Sorry, here is the one I meant to link to:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095632020601700505

Chad W Jessup
March 21, 2020 2:13 pm

“It was a Chinese study published on March 9 [2020] that first put the spotlight on this anti-malaria drug [[hydroxychloroquine] in the context of the current pandemic. Researchers at the University of Beijing demonstrated its effectiveness in an in vitro trial – that is to say, an experiment on cells in a laboratory.

‘Difficult’ to interpret results

But when it comes to human trials, the picture is foggier. “Tests on human patients [except for malaria] have so far produced contrasting results that are difficult to interpret,” D’Alessandro observed.

Hence the interest in Didier Raoult’s work in Marseille: he is the first scientist to have carried out trials with human patients that seem to have produced conclusive results. But there are still doubts: the precise data from the clinical trial have not yet been published in a scientific journal, and so have not yet been subject to peer review, noted MedScape, a specialist publication for healthcare professionals.

Another reason for caution is that the trial was “only carried out on a few patients”, D’Alessandro emphasised. The Chinese study on March 9 was criticised by many in the scientific community because it was carried out on a group of “only” 100 patients – four times more than the experiment conducted in Marseille. The French government’s spokesperson highlighted this point, stressing the importance of carrying out trials on a larger scale before trying to reach conclusions on hydroxychloroquine’s effectiveness.”

Just saying – in vitro tests and small sample sizes.

Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 3:32 pm

Good grief! If we did not have a test for this specific virus, all of this illness and death would not even be a blip in the flu statistics and the same types of people, immunocompromised, hidden conditions, and elderly with complications, would be dying. The flu season is a salad of viruses moving around the world and we are probably not immunized against most of them at any given time, they are just not largely deadly viruses. We also cannot assume that a person does not have more than one virus at a time.

Just because we can identify one virus, we are laser focused on it, while 100s of thousands (800+k worldwide) will die of other viruses this flu season. It makes no sense.

If we panic about a single virus like this, why do we not panic about the flu season which takes more than 100-400 times more people very year? It makes no sense.

If we lose 30–60k Americans every year and many of the serious victims are elderly and infirm and many of these end up on respirators near their end, why would we suddenly be short of respirators? Do not forget that respirators are freed up everyday as people either die or recover; there is turn over—the machines are not gone and are reassigned. Again, it makes not sense.

Here in W. Virginia, it seems that we have already had this virus come through here, as in January and February quite a number of people had symptoms the same as this virus, but, as no one was testing for the virus at all here, it was just another flu episode. Since we do not have a test for antibodies against this virus, which would indicate if someone had it in the past, we have no way of detecting such people. We can only tell who has it now or not. We are basically looking through a pinhole at the world. An entire country does not have the virus, until you start testing for it and, even then, you only detect those who have it now and not those who did have it in the past. Wow. Myopic.

Epidemiology is a great and useful study, but not when your tools are lacking or inadequate.

Italy has an average flu death rate of 23k per year, compared to 30-60k in the US. However, Italy has 1/5th the population, which means their normal flu in the US would be 115k on average! If our average is 45k, this equivalent would be 225k a year in the US. Italy’s problem is not this virus, it is systemic to the country—lousy healthcare system, old population, lots of smokers, and gregarious social life. Italy is not an example of how virulent this little virus is, but it illuminates Italy itself.

Our current lockdown strategy is great. Normal “flu” and this virus move in exactly the same manner and sequestering is a great way to stop this, along with good anti-flu habits. The virus, if it was an altered virus, might bind to cells more strongly, but then it progresses the same way it would without the binding alteration. Largely, it is simply easier to catch once it enters the body, all other things are normal.

Sequestration has an added benefit. It will break the flu season if we do it right. As all flu-type viruses have a limited time course, something around a month should do it. We beat the Hong Kong flu in 1968 by suspending college for a month. It worked perfectly.

Michael
Reply to  Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 4:08 pm

Chzrles Higley
The best comment I have read in the last three months The link below is informative

https://syndromictrends.com/metric/panel/rp/percent_positivity/organism/main

it doesn’t include the specific current COVID rna. it is instructive.

MarkW
Reply to  Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 4:10 pm

Not all viruses are created equal.

Bindidon
Reply to  Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 4:18 pm

Charles Higley

What a lengthy comment! What nice theories!

1. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

2. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Four weeks ago, less than 60 countries were affected; now there are little 185.
And you really want to tell us here about Hong Kong flu?

Are you serious? Good grief.

We will see how the ratio: new cases / total cases develops everywhere.

Rgds from Germany
J.-P. Dehottay

Bindidon
Reply to  Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 4:32 pm

Charles Highley

“Italy has an average flu death rate of 23k per year, compared to 30-60k in the US. ”

Wrong, Sir. I don’t know about how Italy works, but it is known that US and Canada put pneumonia and flu in one and the same stat bag.

In Germany this is not done; so flu stat is way lower.

J.-P. D.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Bindidon
March 22, 2020 12:23 pm

Bindidon
You have touched on an important point. Not all countries use the same definitions for cause of death. That probably is a reason that Germany has such an apparent low rate from COVID-19. If someone is in ill health for one or more reasons, and succumbs after catching COVID-19, I have read that the German coroner is likely to attribute the death to the chronic condition rather than the immediate acute condition. Consider the situation where someone is terminally ill, as with cancer, and is only expected to live another month or two at most. If their partner actively intervenes to prevent further suffering, even to assist with suicide, in the US they will be charged with homicide. Thus, the legal system views the circumstances that immediately led to death, and not the comorbidities that contributed and would have led to the same result.

I would be surprised to see evidence supporting your claim that the US considers bacterial pneumonia and viral flu to be equivalent for cause of death.

Bindidon
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 22, 2020 2:04 pm

Clyde Spencer

I searched weeks ago for such info and found it in CDC documents.
Sorry: I won’t do the job again.

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
March 22, 2020 3:40 pm

There are broad classifications of how mortality stats are reported.
This does not mean that there are not separate stats on known cases of one or another particular cause of death.
Mortality charts would be unreadable if every different disease had a line item.
So mortality charts list “pneumonia and Influenza” as one stat.
But look elsewhere, and you will find breakdowns of separate specific causes of such.
Also, some stats listed by the CDC are estimates.
The numbers of total annual flu deaths are estimated.
A separate stat of confirmed flu deaths is far smaller…but they know that the confirmed numbers are only a fraction of the actual numbers, because some deaths are not confirmed by autopsy or post mortem testing.
Many who die of flu do so at home and never see a doctor…they are people who are bedridden in nursing homes or in their own bed.

Finally, “equivalent” is not the same thing as “lumped together on annual mortality charts”.

Steven Mosher
Reply to  Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 9:27 pm

“If we panic about a single virus like this, why do we not panic about the flu season which takes more than 100-400 times more people very year? It makes no sense.”

its not about the deaths over a year.
currently 1 person is dying per hour in NY
currently 1 person is dying per every 2 minutes in Italy

Its the “Acceleration” not the rate over a long time.
That acceleration will/has swamped hospitals.

So rule number 1.

Ignore anyone who talks about a yearly death rate of anything.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 22, 2020 3:33 pm

Exactly.

Reply to  Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 10:19 pm

Charles,
Do yourself a solid and do some reading before putting your reputation as a Thinker on the line by saying stuff like this:
“The virus, if it was an altered virus, might bind to cells more strongly, but then it progresses the same way it would without the binding alteration. Largely, it is simply easier to catch once it enters the body, all other things are normal.”
Along with what else you wrote, it seems you are out of your depth on this subject, and also that you are not keeping up with current events.
Spain was mocking this virus too, just a little under two weeks ago.
They are on a clear path to having the third largest amount of victims of any country in the world, and it seems it is due in large measure to their failure to recognize something never seen in our lifetime…but familiar to students of history.
The pandemic is real, and it is not a particularly horrific one as merging infectious diseases go, but it is not just another cold or seasonal flu.
If we had not taken the steps we did, our hospitals from coast to coast would be overstuffed with hordes of viral pneumonia patients left to die alone on cots in the hallways and basements, just like ones in some other places were, or are, or will be.
And it is not for sure yet if we will have dodged such a bullet.
After that part…people dying in hospital hallways alone due to an unprecedented influx of gravely ill people who require urgent supportive care, arriving so suddenly that their are simply no beds for them all, and not enough people to care for them all…after that comes the part we really want to avoid…dead people stacked up like cord wood outside the hospitals in all of our towns and cities.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
March 21, 2020 11:07 pm

Nicholas: I have been rethinking that this might have been an overreaction based on how it passed through me. When I was younger I ate a ton of candy (worked since I was 12 so could buy what I wanted)… and I had asthma allergies and got tonsillitis or strep throat, sinus infections, colds more than twice per year. I was most of my life. It would always lead to my lungs. I remember many times before I ever bought myself Primatene tablets, how often I was about to suffocate but did not want to complain any more about it at 10 years old and through my teens. I’d just try not to panic and breathe short shallow breaths and concentrated on not suffocating.

Given that, when I recently got this virus, I had to use Alberterol up to a pair of puffs an hour for several hours and then every 2 to 3 to 4 hours for about 3 of the 5 days. I was almost ready to go to the clinic to get onto a nebulizer and ask for steroids to reduce swelling in my lungs. Anyway I made it through and it was not as bad as many other times for me.

When at the clinic, I asked for a rescue inhaler because my back up supply was running low. The clinic had not thought to ask if I needed something to help me breathe.

Do you think doctors are not offering rescue inhalers to get people through this virus? That would make a world of difference I think. The stuff is magic if you know when and how to use it.

Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 4:05 pm

We also have the problem that the new “tests” for Covid-19 have never been tested for actually properly discriminating for the virus, which means either false positives or false negatives. And the results from different tests cannot be compared as a result.

The original test version was a PCR test that is quite complex and conditional, which is why it took so much time to gain an answer. New tests have been popping up and some hospitals have claimed to have created their own tests. None of these tests, including the original, have been properly vetted and approved by the WHO for accuracy. We are designing local, state, and country policies on this?

We need to step back and look at this. No tests in a country does not mean it has no cases–politically this translates in the claim of no cases, when not admitting to little or no testing. A lousy test used in a country, still not meaningful conclusion. And the world is assuming every country has these tests available for use and have been using them. No way. The lack of data from many countries probably came from them having no test kits to use. Instead of admitting to no testing, they just say no cases.

We are looking at a completely inadequate situation for assessing the virus in any country. Just the rate of testing is an issue. Only the presenting? Only the sick? Only those critical? Random testing? All produce different results and all but the last produce horribly skewed results.

Reply to  Charles Higley
March 21, 2020 4:57 pm

Charles

Here’s a counter-argument from E.M. Smith – please read carefully:

This Is NOT The Flu, Comparison To Flu Is Stupid

We are only at the start of this pandemic. There is no immunity. We do not have proven vaccines available. It is rising exponentially. The death rate in actual practice in places with enough resolved cases for valid data is about 3.4% with good medical care, and up to 12% once the medical system is overwhelmed. Those not dead are often hospitalized for weeks to months and have significant lung damage.

The Flu is at the end of season. We have many immune to flu, and we have vaccines for flu. The death rate is about 0.1%. Recovery generally does not require weeks on respirators nor result in permanent disability.

Anyone attempting to equate the two is ignoring the time axis, the exponential math, the death rate differential, the damage, and more. They are not thinking.

https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2020/03/20/20-march-2020-covid-19-usa-16000-cases-italy-4000-dead/

I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.

Oliver Cromwell, 1650.

Bindidon
Reply to  Phil Salmon
March 21, 2020 5:54 pm

Oh!

Smith seems to just have discovered the page we’re using in Germoney since January 21…
Great.

J.-P. D.

Reply to  Phil Salmon
March 21, 2020 7:41 pm

And you copied it from the Chinese Ja!?

Bindidon
Reply to  Phil Salmon
March 22, 2020 3:00 am

No.

The page’s discoverer was Wim Röst.

Michael
March 21, 2020 4:28 pm

Charles your logic is solid. We’re destroying the globale conomy for a minor and I do mean minor change in normal winter death rates. Less than 1 %

Scissor
March 21, 2020 4:33 pm

Medical workers that come out of retirement to help, should reconsider, or at the very least not be placed at the front lines. Many of the medical workers who succumbed in Italy were in high risk groups.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8129499/More-2-600-medical-workers-infected-coronavirus-Italy.html

Joe G
March 21, 2020 5:03 pm

This is great news. But I will always maintain that keeping our personal immune systems in top shape should be a priority. A big issue is the lack of vitamin D in the winter. That alone weakens the immune system. We don’t get enough sunlight in the winter and we don’t supplement to make up the difference. Most of us, anyway. So that is the place to start.

Talk to your physician to get the proper amount. Too much is bad for you. Then look into anti-oxidants and the bacteria-killing ability of zinc. All strengthen your immune system.

Reply to  Joe G
March 22, 2020 3:31 pm

True.
A, D, E, and K, vitamin groups are fat soluble, meaning excess will not be excreted but stored, and as a consequence these are very dangerous to take in excessive dosages.
Max safe dosage for a normal adult is about 4,000 units/day.
Those with a deficiency may need injections of as much as 60,000 units, often repeatedly.
But this sort of amount for a person who is not deficient can be extremely hazardous, as it is well over the limit of toxicity.
Also those large doses are delivered by intramuscular injection, while an oral dose of the same size can be absorbed into the blood over a short span of time…minutes to an hour, IIRC.
Having a hundred times what your body needs will not help many people.
It will not help anyone if one ignores other nutritional requirements.

March 21, 2020 5:10 pm

Covid19 is a chimera betacoronavirus.
Half from the bat Rhinolophus.
This is the pneumonia part.
Half from the Malaysian pangolin Manis.
This is the key to enter human cells part.

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-origins-genome-analysis-suggests-two-viruses-may-have-combined-134059

John Tillman
Reply to  Phil Salmon
March 22, 2020 4:37 am

The originally French article contains some errors. The estimate of 30,000 human genes is outdated. The best guess now for protein-coding sequences is 19,000 and could fall further.

Also, while civets belong to Order Carnivora, they are omnivores or herbivores in diet. That’s why they eat coffee beans, which makes their scat so valuable.

Reply to  John Tillman
March 23, 2020 3:37 pm

The genetic data I have seen (Figure 1 in: Andersen et al. 2020. The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2. Nature Medicine preprint: 20 March 2020. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9) seems to indicate transferred to humans from bats via pangolin.

March 21, 2020 5:43 pm

I see a number of people talking of boosting immunity. They should all read up on the 1918 flu. The 20 to 40 age group was hit hard. The cause is believed to be too robust immune response termed a cytokine storm.

Reply to  MIKE MCHENRY
March 21, 2020 9:32 pm

There are at least three ideas regarding why that particular flu ant that particular time did what it did.
Cytokine storm is one of them, and the one most are familiar with that know anything about it.
But it is not the only theory, and there is no way to prove anything one way or the other.
Having said that, it is the one that seems the most plausible to me….at least until one takes a deep dive into other ideas, and to criticisms of the CRS theory.

ren
Reply to  MIKE MCHENRY
March 21, 2020 11:13 pm

Because the virus is new, some people will experience a cytokine storm.
Lower the pressure with fresh garlic. Suck zinc, take high doses of vitamin C and avoid infection.

March 22, 2020 4:26 am

This headline post must have a warning hence I have repeated this post in a number of places:::

“”The drug touted by the U.S. President Donald Trump as a possible line of treatment against the coronavirus comes with severe warnings in China and can kill in dosages as little as two grams,” the story began.
“A Wuhan Institute of Virology study found that the drug can kill an adult just dosed at twice the daily amount recommended for treatment, which is one gram,” the story later noted.”

Read the side effects here and be warned!!
Side-effects
Rare or very rare
Cardiomyopathy; hallucination; hepatitis
Frequency not known
Abdominal pain; agranulocytosis; alopecia; anxiety; atrioventricular block; bone marrow disorders; confusion; corneal deposits; depression; diarrhoea; eye disorders; gastrointestinal disorder; headache; hearing impairment; hypoglycaemia; hypotension; insomnia; interstitial lung disease; movement disorders; myopathy; nausea; neuromyopathy; neutropenia; personality change; photosensitivity reaction; psychotic disorder; QT interval prolongation; seizure; severe cutaneous adverse reactions (SCARs); skin reactions; thrombocytopenia; tinnitus; tongue protrusion; vision disorders; vomiting
Side-effects, further information
Side-effects which occur at doses used in the prophylaxis or treatment of malaria are generally not serious.
Overdose
Chloroquine is very toxic in overdosage; overdosage is extremely hazardous and difficult to treat. Urgent advice from the National Poisons Information Service is essential. Life-threatening features include arrhythmias (which can have a very rapid onset) and convulsions (which can be intractable).
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/chloroquine.html#sideEffects

March 22, 2020 6:56 am

I tried posting this a couple of times in this thread but it seems to have triggered a spam detector! So here it is just once:

chloroquine is a safe drug if taken as directed but an overdose of 2x is deadly! It also has some pretty dire side effects:
Chloroquine
Side-effects
Rare or very rare
Cardiomyopathy; hallucination; hepatitis
Frequency not known
Abdominal pain; agranulocytosis; alopecia; anxiety; atrioventricular block; bone marrow disorders; confusion; corneal deposits; depression; diarrhoea; eye disorders; gastrointestinal disorder; headache; hearing impairment; hypoglycaemia; hypotension; insomnia; interstitial lung disease; movement disorders; myopathy; nausea; neuromyopathy; neutropenia; personality change; photosensitivity reaction; psychotic disorder; QT interval prolongation; seizure; severe cutaneous adverse reactions (SCARs); skin reactions; thrombocytopenia; tinnitus; tongue protrusion; vision disorders; vomiting
Side-effects, further information
Side-effects which occur at doses used in the prophylaxis or treatment of malaria are generally not serious.
Overdose
Chloroquine is very toxic in overdosage; overdosage is extremely hazardous and difficult to treat. Urgent advice from the National Poisons Information Service is essential. Life-threatening features include arrhythmias (which can have a very rapid onset) and convulsions (which can be intractable).
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/interaction/chloroquine-2.html

The antimalarial drug chloroquine is the most severe and frequent cause of poisoning in Africa’,2 and the Far East.3 The mortality rate in the published studies ranges between 10 and 30% and is amongst the highest in clinical toxi- c~logy.~ The high mortality rate in chloroquine poisoning is related to close dose-dependent toxicity and to rapid onset of severe cardiac symptoms.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2044.1990.tb14629.x

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  ghalfrunt
March 22, 2020 12:37 pm

ghalfrunt
From my personal experience, I think that we can add elevation of systolic blood pressure, almost immediately, to the long list. My rheumatologist said that I was atypical. However, that doesn’t mean that there won’t be others with the same sensitivity. That could be a concern to those who are already experiencing hypertension.

Bindidon
Reply to  ghalfrunt
March 22, 2020 1:56 pm

Thanks ghalfrunt

Rgds
J.-P. Dehottay

Reply to  ghalfrunt
March 22, 2020 3:24 pm

With a few exceptions, Notably from Clyde, I got zero traction and was even criticized for pointing this out last week.
Right now at least one country has ER wards clogged with chloroquine overdose patients.
I expect this to be more frequent over time at least for a while.
Likely store shelves will be emptied of the drug and people who need it for RA, lupus, or malaria, will not be able to get it, and many will take it who do not need it, while many who need it will not have any.
Safe is a very relative concept in medicine.
Generally safe can also mean “fatal for some, dangerous for others, not dangerous when used exactly as directed for most”.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
March 23, 2020 4:17 am

Nicholas McGinley
this is why I tried posting throughout this thread but hit a spam filter!

A warning needs to be in all headlines advocating this drug. Without knowledge it is not safe. What is the dosage rate for covid-19? is it the same as for malaria – weekly 2 tablets – or is it 2 tablets per day?
and even what is the tablet active ingredient weight – it seems to vary?.
Without knowledge this is potentially incurably fatal

Reply to  ghalfrunt
March 23, 2020 4:40 am

I think it is safe when used by doctors in a hospital, but probably will be misused by at least some people in an emergency when people are irrationally panicked. The difference between the proper amount and an overdose is much more narrow than for most drugs.
I have a hard time thinking of any where one pill is medicine, but two or three might be poison.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
March 24, 2020 2:54 am

“Safe”, as I have said in numerous instances, should be understood to have shades of meaning that are quite different when something is being used to save the life of a person who is gravely ill and possibly about to die, than when used, for example, to describe a brand new car.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
March 24, 2020 9:56 am
Reply to  ghalfrunt
March 23, 2020 3:25 pm

Hydrochloroquine is as effective as Chloroquine when used against malaria with lower side effects so I suspect if effective then it will be what will be used.

John Tillman
March 22, 2020 8:42 am

A promising approach: look for existing approved drugs which bind to proteins attacked by the Wuhan virus.

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2020/03/21/a_covid-19_treatment_might_already_exist_in_old_drugs_111330.html 

John Tillman
March 22, 2020 10:02 am

No new cases or deaths yesterday in Italy. No new cases but eleven in the UK. New cases and deaths in the US 2944 and 47, vs. 3,076 and 372 in Spain.

Current deaths per million:

Italy 79.8
Spain 37.9
UK 3.65
RoK 2.03
US 1.05

John Tillman
Reply to  John Tillman
March 22, 2020 10:13 am

New deaths in UK 11.

Bindidon
Reply to  John Tillman
March 22, 2020 1:54 pm

John Tillman

“No new cases or deaths yesterday in Italy.”

Is it so difficult to look at the right source on the right moment?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Click on ‘Yesterday’, and sort the table by ‘New cases’ (two clicks on the column’s header):

21.03.2020

1. Italy: cases 53,578; new cases 6,557; deaths 4,825; new deaths 793
2. USA: 24,207; 4,824; 302; 46

and so on…

Click on ‘Now’ (the best is around 0:00 GMT+0)

22.03.2020

1. USA: 32,356; 8,149; 414; 112
2. Italy: 59,138; 5,560; 5,476; 651

and so on…

Death toll and especially cases per million are here secondary, because the major problem is not ‘How many will die?’.

The major problem is ‘How quick will the hospitals in all smaller towns across the US become totally submerged by severe new cases?’, what is a much more relevant cause for… more and more deaths.

You have ZERO idea of what happens in the hospitals in Italy, Spain, France… Medical staff there must decide whom they help and whom they can’t because there is not enough personnel for keeping them alive. A terrifying issue.

I guess you won’t (want to) understand, because you usually know everything better. But… maybe others will.

J.-P. D.

John Tillman
Reply to  Bindidon
March 22, 2020 5:38 pm

The data update daily. Day before yesterday there were in fact no new cases. Yesterday, there were.

That site allows you to look at prior days. I suggest you do so before rather than after posting.

John Tillman
Reply to  Bindidon
March 22, 2020 5:49 pm

Go to the update for March 21. You’ll see no new cases or deaths in Italy for the prior day, the 20th.

Maybe you didn’t look at the time of my comment, or perhaps you simply didn’t want to check. The site updates at midnight GMT daily.

John Tillman
March 22, 2020 10:11 am

Three most recent polls on Trump’s handling of Wuhan virus pandemic:

Poll Date Sample Approve Disapprove Spread

Emerson 3/18 – 3/19 1100 RV 49 41 +8
ABC/Ipsos 3/18 – 3/19 512 A 55 43 +12
Axios-Harris 3/17 – 3/18 2019 A 56 44 +12

RV: Registered Voters
A: All Adults

Average: +10.7

Had been slightly negative before March 17.

Reply to  John Tillman
March 22, 2020 3:17 pm

Those numbers are not what is reported on the RCP site.
I am not saying they are not as you say John.
But this is not the numbers most are seeing reported.
RCP, I have often noted, are very dishonest about what the report, although they claim to be and make it appear that they are objective.

See here:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

John Tillman
Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
March 22, 2020 5:42 pm

As my first sentence clearly says, those are the numbers posted for Wuhan virus job approval, not for overall job approval.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/public_approval_of_president_trumps_handling_of_the_coronavirus-7088.html

Reply to  John Tillman
March 23, 2020 1:41 am

Sorry, I overlooked that part of what you wrote.
I always click the polls tab every day as one of the first things I check every day in the news.
I had not seen that poll page before.
In any case, the RCP site erases the most favorable Trump polls and keeps the ones that hate him most up forever.

John Tillman
Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
March 23, 2020 10:33 am

Of course.

As the old saw goes, the only poll that matters is the one with the largest sample in November.

March 24, 2020 8:58 pm

Corona is very dangerous