The danger of making #coronavirus decisions without reliable data

From STAT

A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data

By John P.A. Ioannidis

March 17, 2020

The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic. But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco.

At a time when everyone needs better information, from disease modelers and governments to people quarantined or just social distancing, we lack reliable evidence on how many people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 or who continue to become infected. Better information is needed to guide decisions and actions of monumental significance and to monitor their impact.

Draconian countermeasures have been adopted in many countries. If the pandemic dissipates — either on its own or because of these measures — short-term extreme social distancing and lockdowns may be bearable. How long, though, should measures like these be continued if the pandemic churns across the globe unabated? How can policymakers tell if they are doing more good than harm?

Vaccines or affordable treatments take many months (or even years) to develop and test properly. Given such timelines, the consequences of long-term lockdowns are entirely unknown.

Related:

We know enough now to act decisively against Covid-19. Social distancing is a good place to start

The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.

This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty, reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%.

Related:

Coronavirus model shows individual hospitals what to expect in the coming weeks

That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.

Could the Covid-19 case fatality rate be that low? No, some say, pointing to the high rate in elderly people. However, even some so-called mild or common-cold-type coronaviruses that have been known for decades can have case fatality rates as high as 8% when they infect elderly people in nursing homes. In fact, such “mild” coronaviruses infect tens of millions of people every year, and account for 3% to 11% of those hospitalized in the U.S. with lower respiratory infections each winter.

These “mild” coronaviruses may be implicated in several thousands of deaths every year worldwide, though the vast majority of them are not documented with precise testing. Instead, they are lost as noise among 60 million deaths from various causes every year.

Although successful surveillance systems have long existed for influenza, the disease is confirmed by a laboratory in a tiny minority of cases. In the U.S., for example, so far this season 1,073,976 specimens have been tested and 222,552 (20.7%) have tested positive for influenza. In the same period, the estimated number of influenza-like illnesses is between 36,000,000 and 51,000,000, with an estimated 22,000 to 55,000 flu deaths.

Note the uncertainty about influenza-like illness deaths: a 2.5-fold range, corresponding to tens of thousands of deaths. Every year, some of these deaths are due to influenza and some to other viruses, like common-cold coronaviruses.

In an autopsy series that tested for respiratory viruses in specimens from 57 elderly persons who died during the 2016 to 2017 influenza season, influenza viruses were detected in 18% of the specimens, while any kind of respiratory virus was found in 47%. In some people who die from viral respiratory pathogens, more than one virus is found upon autopsy and bacteria are often superimposed. A positive test for coronavirus does not mean necessarily that this virus is always primarily responsible for a patient’s demise.

If we assume that case fatality rate among individuals infected by SARS-CoV-2 is 0.3% in the general population — a mid-range guess from my Diamond Princess analysis — and that 1% of the U.S. population gets infected (about 3.3 million people), this would translate to about 10,000 deaths. This sounds like a huge number, but it is buried within the noise of the estimate of deaths from “influenza-like illness.” If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to “influenza-like illness” would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average. The media coverage would have been less than for an NBA game between the two most indifferent teams.

Full article here.

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Phil
March 18, 2020 10:19 pm

Cut the governments a little slack. Only time will tell who second guessed correctly.

With all due respect, a chain reaction has been started that will consume us. it is time for insertion of control rods to prevent this reaction from going out of control. For example, a travel ban is appropriate as a temporary measure. However, with the advent of testing kits that can give results in hours, less costly measures become possible. You could require every traveler coming to the US to go to the airport (or some other suitable facility) the day before a flight and get tested. If they test negative, they should be allowed to fly. In press conferences, the government has stated that 99% of tests come back negative. Why continue such draconian measures for a 1% problem? And so on. You could allow the Olympics to take place by instituting a similar policy of testing all athletes and fans. The cost of testing is probably a lot less than the cost of cancellation.

Governments around the world need to find a less costly way to deal with this situation than blanket prohibitions.

Steven Mosher
Reply to  Phil
March 19, 2020 12:26 am

” You could require every traveler coming to the US to go to the airport (or some other suitable facility) the day before a flight and get tested. If they test negative, they should be allowed to fly. In press conferences, the government has stated that 99% of tests come back negative. Why continue such draconian measures for a 1% problem? And so on. You could allow the Olympics to take place by instituting a similar policy of testing all athletes and fans. The cost of testing is probably a lot less than the cost of cancellation.”

if you fly into Beijing you will be swabbed
Korean is rushing its 20 minute test into production.

Cost of tests range from 25 bucks to 130 bucks.

here is something to Ponder

There are 30 flights that landed at Beijing yesterday.

21 of the people from other countries tested positive.

Beijing now IMPORTS more cases than are locally “sourced”

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 19, 2020 1:14 am

Contagion spreads in confined spaces, like busses and aircraft, so what is your point?

Steven Mosher
Reply to  Patrick MJD
March 19, 2020 2:45 am

“Contagion spreads in confined spaces, like busses and aircraft, so what is your point?

read harder

Not talking about spreading on the Airplane

Think

There are 30 flights that landed at Beijing yesterday.

21 of the people from other countries tested positive.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 19, 2020 6:31 pm

Ho do you know they were from other countries? China could easily be the country of origin for some, probably most. Not many people are leaving home to travel abroad right now. But plenty are coming back home.

Steven Mosher
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 19, 2020 11:53 pm

“Ho do you know they were from other countries? China could easily be the country of origin for some, probably most. Not many people are leaving home to travel abroad right now. But plenty are coming back home.”

because they have been listing the citizenship of the imports
because there are different rules for citizens on arrival and foreigners
because my administrative assistant tracks the daily data so my return can be scheduled
Basically, if you are a citizen and arrive from Italy you get to report to your
local building administration (party cadres) and they will manage and monitor
your quarentine and if you are a foreigner you go to a government facility and
have to pay room and board

We do a similar thing in Korea. Citizens that are imports from another country are counted as citizens and Foreigners are tracked as well. So the 80 koreans that landed
from Iran would not be counted as IMPORTS.

in fact in Korea you will recieve a wage while you are in quarentine
whereas in China you will have to Pay for your quarantine

any more silly questions

Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 20, 2020 9:25 am

any more silly questions

Are you simply incapable of answering a question without being a condescending jerk?

Thanks for the answer regardless, that was informative. Not sure I trust any numbers being reported by the Chinese government, but informative regardless.

Phil
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 19, 2020 2:32 pm

Thanks for the data.

Amazed
March 18, 2020 10:53 pm

Apparently, suggested cures for Covid-19 infections take one to two weeks to effect a cure.

Non-treated patients take about 7 to 14 days to recover.

Alex
March 18, 2020 11:24 pm

Tell this crap Italians in Bergamo.
500 dead in the small town in two weeks.
No available ICUs anymore.
Doctors have to decide who lives and who dies immediately.
Pictures from China with beds in Stadions already forgotten?
“A century Pandemie”?
Is the Wuhan Institute for Virology already shut?
Or do they continue the virus engineering?

Sunny
Reply to  Alex
March 19, 2020 12:44 am

Alex

The italians have been tending to patients and not treating, it was on the 11-13 during a phone conference that they decided to use drugs like chloroquine, that the Koreans are using, the Italians waited far to long… Korea’s death rate have dropped, while Italians keep on dying…

Also a second clinical trial of chloroquine have again shown a 100% cure rate, the second trial is peer reviewed…

World governments are taking of printing money, businesses are suffering and the fix is likely to be a course of chloroquine, a 5p pill..

Wim Röst
Reply to  Alex
March 19, 2020 1:50 am

Yesterday’s death toll for Italy (just one day): 475
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

For the Netherlands I calculated when we will run out of IC beds that are available (746). That will be next week, March 25. On basis of the numbers of already confirmed cases the week after there will be no place at the IC for some thousands of people. And when the virus keeps spreading as it did, the following week ten thousand or more people will not get the IC care they need.

In case of being short of IC beds people older than 65 are refused and the same for younger people with other medical problems. Perhaps this partly explains why in France half of coronavirus cases in intensive care are below the age of 60:
https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-outbreak-03-16-20-intl-hnk/h_91b13ce4323d365087bad47c5c9a8c39

Alex
Reply to  Wim Röst
March 19, 2020 3:40 am

Right.
A simple math. Let us suppose, our stupid politicians want to establish “herd immunity” by infecting 70% of population.
Let us take Germany.
It has a population of 80 mil.
70% of it is 56 mil
To infect them this within a year (to stop the quarantine), we need 56 mil/365 = 150k infections per day!
20% of them need ICU for 2 weeks at least.
This means, Germany alone needs 150k*0.2*14 = 500k ICUs.
This is assuming the full year we will be in the quarantine. Not working. Nothing.
This is a revolutionary situation.

Wim Röst
Reply to  Alex
March 19, 2020 3:59 am

Germany has ordered only 10.000 ventilators, Italy 5000.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-51886497/page/2
Ventilator production stepped up in Europe

icisil
Reply to  Alex
March 19, 2020 4:56 am

The Dutch have adopted the herd immunity approach. Isolate and take care of the weak and vulnerable, and let the rest of the population (80%) who won’t need hospital care develop herd immunity to protect the the weak and vulnerable. I think they will be successful.

Wim Röst
Reply to  icisil
March 19, 2020 7:51 am

icisil: “The Dutch have adopted the herd immunity approach”

WR: The Dutch were not having the right answer to stop the entrance and spread of the virus. Even before starting a real fight they had left the battle field, hiding the effect of ‘immunity approach’ for everyone’s eyes. Yesterday the ‘Immunity approach’ was highly questioned in the Parliament. The government even couldn’t / wouldn’t tell the moment the Netherlands would run out of IC places: to sensible for the public. Next week they will run out of [regular] IC places. The Minister of Health collapsed during the debate, hit by being tired and ‘stress’. The message the government is telling is not accepted by the Parliament and still hidden for the big public. The Prime Minister in second instance: Immunity is not the goal but could be the consequence”.

Yesterday’s official number of cases was 2051: 0.01% of total population and we are already running out of IC beds next week, while the use of IC beds lags 10 days the moment of the first symptoms. Even when the present number of infected people is tenfold or more than the official one, than the goal of 70% or 80% infected (needed for Herd Immunity) is endlessly far away and in between there is a very very long time period with a huge disruption of society. If the goal ever can be reached, because epidemics can end up earlier than expected as well, at least for some time.

On basis of present official numbers in two weeks there will be no place on the IC for thousands of heavily sick people, that number multiplied in the week after. Situations for individuals thar are not acceptable for the Dutch people will emerge by the hundreds and will be shared by modern media. Herd Immunity might be a hidden goal by the government but surely the consequences of that goal will not be acceptable for the Dutch people. In the past no population ever has CHOSEN for such a solution.

Until ‘Herd Immunity’ would be reached the frontiers of all surrounding countries will be closed for Dutch people: that situation could take years. In the same time the Dutch Prime Minister says that the Netherlands have an ‘open economy’ as an argument to quickly reach Herd Immunity. With all other surrounding countries taking heavy measures against the virus a ‘one man laissez faire road’ is not realistic. It has been a theoretical solution by the advising institute RIVM, not realising the practical consequences and not realising the reactions by the public. The ‘economy should be continued but even before one tenth of a percent of total people became infected all airplanes already were grounded, all communal activities and holdidays were cancelled etc.. The public reacted far before the government started to move. Unfortunately the government not even now knows to explain the importance of ‘social distancing’ – or does not want to do so because it is against the principle of ‘Reaching Herd Immunity’ at all cost.

There is always a big difference between theory and practice. Trying to get ‘Herd Immunity’ is a ‘Sleeping Room Theory’. Not fitting to the real modern world. The people never shared such a goal and people will never support governments that are trying to reach such a goal at the expense of the people themselves and their loved ones.

Besides: Except for the import of cases from Europe and elsewhere China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea already [nearly] had won the fight against the virus. They know how to do. That we in the West don’t know how to do so is a sign of weakness of our societies, a sign of weakness that cannot be hidden by a weird theory that is heavily critisized by the WHO and others.

Boris Johnson who recently was realizing the consequences of the Herd Immunity Approach made a 180 degree turn. Late, but hopefully not too late.

icisil
Reply to  Alex
March 19, 2020 3:31 am

The Italian Minister of Health just announced that of about 100 hospital records examined, the average age of death is 80 years, 75% were male, and all but 2 had serious chronic diseases. So for the 98% the virus was simply the last straw.

icisil
Reply to  icisil
March 19, 2020 4:35 am

Something we need to be asking ourselves is whether those elderly, 75% males were (lifetime) smokers, and if they had a history of using ibuprofen (frequently used for arthritis). Both increase ACE2 expression in the lungs, which is the enzyme that the virus attaches to. So maybe what we’re seeing is the result of lifestyle/health choices.

icisil
Reply to  icisil
March 19, 2020 4:49 am

Sorry, it wasn’t the Italian Minister of Health, but the president of the Italian National Institute of Health.

eo
March 19, 2020 12:07 am

For comparison with flu based on CDC estimates shown in this link https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

For a US population of 330 million 36 to 51 million got the flu virus from 1 October 2019 to March 7,2020 or a span of approximately 160 days. Some 370 to 670 k needs hospitalization and there was 22,000 to 55000 deaths mostly from complications. This translates to roughly 2000 to 4000 cases of hospitalization per day and 138 to 418 deaths per day.

How does the COVID19 panicmic compares? Did the Chinese experience where the infection was practically ignored till a few months after it started really compared to the seasonal flu ? Was there a global panic and draconian measures to combat the seasonal flu epidemic.
The problem is the media and the subsequent political pressure it impose on the leaderships of countries who would like to act rationally and avoid the panic and subsequent chaos. Trump, UK, Switzerland, Australia, and other leadership are pushed by the media and public clamor for to panic and are now even trying to outdo each other in imposing draconian measures.

Steven Mosher
Reply to  eo
March 19, 2020 2:41 am
Patrick MJD
March 19, 2020 12:28 am

This who thing reminds me of this BBC TV show from the 70’s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivors_(1975_TV_series)

I missed the last two or three episodes, so I never knew how it ended.

Nick Graves
Reply to  Patrick MJD
March 20, 2020 9:03 am

A long time ago now, but IIRC it was a bit of a non-ending.

I had the feeling they were aiming for a second series, but it died out…

ACParker
March 19, 2020 12:28 am

Lest we forget, there are still flu, other coronaviruses, as well as myriad pathogens spreading about and killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, each year.

Quarantine is the epidemiologist’s best tool. If it does not halt the spread outright, it gives precious time, something that cannot be bought, to develop treatments and vaccines. Since the politicization of AIDS, that tool has been suppressed in favor of removing any chance of stigmatizing anyone. Concern over the economic and political impact of epidemics also hamstrings efforts to control them. Both of these have played a significant role in the uncontrolled spread of the Wuhan Virus.

This not a run-of-the-mill virus. The overwhelming of medical facilities is a nightmare scenario now being played out in Italy and elsewhere. It is not a scare tactic. Even if the final numbers are not overly impressive, the way in which it gets there is troubling, at least.

That being said, once efficacious treatments and vaccines are developed, the Wuhan Virus will likely soon join H1N1 in the white noise of epidemiology; still killing tens of thousands each year but with little fanfare.

An aside, to remove any stigma being suffered by the Chinese people, I suggest we call this the Chairman Xi Virus, or perhaps the CCP Virus.

P.S. As if the worry and hysteria generated by this virus were not enough, this blasted earthquake has got people here in a major frazzle. Worse, is the smuggness of those with garages full of bottled water.

Sunny
March 19, 2020 12:46 am

Chloroquine has been shown to work, 100% success rate…

https://www.covidtrial.io/

Tom Barr
March 19, 2020 12:57 am

Agreed that lethality may be overstated but the authors, in pointing to unknown numbers, ignore the overwhelming of healthcare systems in outbreak areas. I am not saying the response is proportionate but it’s a fact.

March 19, 2020 1:00 am

You can not compare it to flu. It is roughly 10 times more dangerous. Just look on hospitals in Italy, flu is not overcrowding ICU.
Draconian measures? Ask on Taiwan and in China, they got it under control. If they are satisfied with their result.
Simply think what is better, stay 2-4 weeks at home, stop economics, or let 1% of your population die, spread havoc, ruin economic for few months?

eo
Reply to  Peter
March 19, 2020 3:06 am

Risk is the chance of getting it and then dying once a persons get it. If there is 2000 time more chances of getting disease A than B, but the risk of dying from A after getting it is 100 times lower than B, the disease A is still more risky.

eo
Reply to  Peter
March 19, 2020 3:36 am

looking at the mortality statistics the mortality from flu is very much higher than COVID 19 but the ICU were not as full and the other health services were not overloaded. Does this meant the flu virus is much more deadly– the patient died before getting the benefit of the ICU and other hospital facility Or is the overload part of the panic– cases that should not have required the ICU and other facilities are being provided just because the patient is positive for COVID-19?

Reply to  eo
March 19, 2020 4:58 am

The occupancy of the ICUs from seasonable flu was in the normal range, the problem arises when you add something like COVID19 on top of that, then the system becomes overloaded as has happened in Italy.

icisil
Reply to  Phil.
March 19, 2020 7:02 am

And those increased cases may be due to an increased risk of infection intensity caused by higher ACE2 expression in patients’ lungs, due to smoking and ibuprofen use, that this particular virus specifically targets.

Another worrisome possibility is that this virus might activate latent TB, a co-infection that is 5 times more fatal than either alone. TB has the same symptoms as this illness, and can’t be diagnosed without a TB test. Accurate diagnosis is sometimes difficult; skin and sputum smear tests are fast, but don’t always work; definitive diagnoses can take weeks. I have contacted several hospitals in Europe with young patients in ICU to try to find out if they test them for TB. I have received no responses, and don’t expect to. Perhaps someone in Europe closer to the scene, or with personal contacts, can pursue that line of inquiry.

icisil
Reply to  icisil
March 19, 2020 7:34 am

Some diabetes and hypertension meds increase ACE2 expression in the lungs. Remember, those are 2 risk groups for this illness.

The expression of ACE2 is substantially increased in patients with type 1 or type 2 diabetes, who are treated with ACE inhibitors and angiotensin II type-I receptor blockers (ARBs). Hypertension is also treated with ACE inhibitors and ARBs, which results in an upregulation of ACE2.

https://conciergemedicinetoday.org/2020/03/16/lancet-covid-19-are-patients-with-hypertension-and-diabetes-mellitus-at-increased-risk-for-covid-19-infection/

Andy Espersen
Reply to  Peter
March 19, 2020 4:03 am

But it is not as simple as that, Peter. Fact is, this virus cannot be contained by everybody just “staying 2-4 weeks at home”. It is unstoppable – it must run its course, like all pandemics must. And while it is going, many people will die – but so what?? We do, however, have one trump-card up our sleeve that no previous victims of pandemics ever had, namely that we can come up with an antidote or a vaccine. And we very likely will soon. The prize for making an effective vaccine is enormous – all drug companies are working flat out.

So your troubles may be over sooner than you think. But the real reason for the present panic is that our generation is hysterically scared about their own death and their own possible suffering. People never used to be so anxious and worried about things. Humankind has never before lived in such super-abundance of material goods and personal protection in every aspect of life. And it seems that our human psyche just can’t cope with that. I am generalising, of course. There are plenty of courageous, thinking people who remain calm and collected no matter what life throws at them. Such attitude to life used to be dominant in humankind – that was why we up until now have been so successful as a species. Sadly, that is no longer the case.

Am I right?

Reply to  Andy Espersen
March 20, 2020 1:15 am

Andy, I disagree. Just look on China or Taiwan, it seems they made it already. 0 new cases. They are far from whole 1.3 billion population contracting virus.
Same happened with SARS, if we would say that everybody will contract it, many of us wouldn’t be here. But SARS 1 was contained and it was good.
Think about vaccination, how many outbreaks it stopped?
It is our duty as humanity to fight virus spread.
Examples shows that it can be contained and stopped, so we are obliged to do so.
There will be of course progress in testing, from 48h test currently to 4h in China, heard about 20m tests. This will help with containing.
Money is currently only excuse to not do so.
I just read that California applied curfew. Quite late. After 3 weeks. If it would happen 3 weeks ago in whole country at once, in one week it should be already OK. Now it is only in worse situation.
Btw. I lived in California 4 years, 10% of my life and I would say it is my second home.

Charlie
Reply to  Peter
March 19, 2020 4:15 pm

There have been serious flu epidemics in 1957 and 1968. How does the Corona virus compare to the various flu epidemics since 1945 ? What are the factors which increase the lethality of Corona virus and how do they compare with flu ?

Vincent Causey
March 19, 2020 1:28 am

A better way to get a handle on the medical impact is to look at what is happening in Italy. Medical staff are telling the world some important things. Firstly, their hospitals cannot cope with the number of cases and perhaps even more sad, they no longer have the facilities to save peoples lives. “We are too exhausted to cry at work” one medic tweeted, “but I cry when I get home”. She referred to the fact that patients are being left to die who could otherwise be saved. I don’t know about your country, but I’ve never heard anything like that happening during seasonal flu.

And then, where did the author get the figure of 1% of Americans becoming infected? He didn’t say, but it does not seem like anything remotely realistic. You will probably see 70% infected, according to epidemiological projections, because it spreads so rapidly. No doubt, as the deaths surpass the numbers killed by flu, people will make ever more meaningless comparisons. “More people die of heart disease” they will shout, and so on. I just wonder how long it will take before it becomes self evident to everybody?

Charlie
Reply to  Vincent Causey
March 19, 2020 4:40 pm

In Italy there are 5000 sweat shops using Chinese labour who will live and work in bad conditions: the population is old; people greet each other with kisses: take Holy Communion; are heavy smokers and 30% do not respond to anti biotics because they ahve taken too many;many people live in villages/town with narrow winding streets.

What is needed is comprehensive data on the conditions people live in, their medical health and social habits. We are dealing with geometric/exponential growth with factors controlling growth we appear to have little knowledge of, let alone can quantify.Are some groups more prone to lung infections? Historically dairy maids due to Cowpox were less prone to Smallpox and people with no immunity who came into contact with westerners were very prone to dying from this disease. If one used the death rate of milk maids to predict that of native North americans or vice versa one would be wrong.

Dodgy Geezer
March 19, 2020 1:35 am

ANY comment by Prof Ioannidis is well worth reading…..

Gerald the Mole
March 19, 2020 2:54 am

Having failed to scare us about the dangers of global warming I suspect that “they” are trying a new tack.

brent
March 19, 2020 4:06 am

Aggressive testing helps Italian town cut new coronavirus cases to zero
Expert urges all countries to ramp up the numbers of people being screened
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/aggressive-testing-helps-italian-town-cut-new-coronavirus-cases-to-zero-1.4205354

Sheri
Reply to  brent
March 19, 2020 7:01 am

How can testing kill all the viruses???? They do NOT. TESTS DETECT. IF they are accurate, and at this point I doubt it (we have many different tests all with no actual verification of accuracy–we’re only four months into this, not nearly long enough to find the errors and percentages of false positives and negatives), the only thing tests do is tell us how many people got sick and possibly who to avoid, if we tag the ones with the virus very clearly so people can run away from them.

The same nonsense is preached with cancers. NO TEST EVER cures cancer, only detects it.

Phil
Reply to  Sheri
March 19, 2020 12:56 pm

Sheri, please read the article. It states:

The first testing round, carried out on the town’s entire population in late February, found 3 per cent of the population infected, though half of the carriers had no symptoms. After isolating all those infected, the second testing round about 10 days later showed the infection rate had dropped to 0.3 per cent.

Importantly, however, this second round identified at least six individuals who had the virus but no symptoms, meaning they could be quarantined. “If they hadn’t been identified, the infection would have resumed,” explained Prof Crisanti. …..

“In the UK, there are a whole lot of infections that are completely ignored,” Prof Crisanti said. “We were able to contain the outbreak here because we identified and eliminated the ‘submerged’ infections and isolated them,” he said of the Vò approach. “That is what makes the difference.”

Isolation in combination with contact tracing cannot be done without testing of all people, including those who are not symptomatic. Outbreaks are often uncontrollable if you don’t identify and isolate the “Typhoid Marys.” Or rather, the cost of controlling the outbreak is ruinous. We have a “not invented here” mentality. Massive testing permits identification of symptomless carriers, which, when combined with isolation and contact tracing, stops the outbreak immediately. Nothing else is as effective.

Sheri
Reply to  Phil
March 19, 2020 3:48 pm

So why didn’t we isolate HIV/AIDS patients? Why not test all people for flu weekly and we can refuse to let sick kids go to school, people go to work, etc. People had Hep C for decades and no one tested till a drug came along. If we are going to test, let’s test for all those things that routinely kill thousands per year and spread like wildfire. I would think those diseases would be equally important to control. Or are people who die from the flu they contracted from a sick coworker less valuable than one who dies of Covid 19?

MarkG
Reply to  Sheri
March 20, 2020 8:02 pm

“So why didn’t we isolate HIV/AIDS patients?”

Because the mass media still controlled The Narrative back then, and had a vested interest in preventing us from doing so.

Zigmaster
March 19, 2020 4:46 am

People who have been suggesting that this is similar to the flu are considered some sort of denier. The scientists who are advising have used massive extrapolations using these too high death rates to terrify governments and people into incredibly draconian measures. One wonders how many middle aged career businessmen will commit suicide due to the economic destruction inflicted on their companies. This sacrifice is to ensure that the elderly , most of whom have preexisting medical issues can live for an extra years or two.
The economic carnage is so severe that one wonders whether the business as usual herd immunity strategy which plays on the fact that most people under 50 have mild symptoms and rarely die would’ve been the least damaging strategy overall leaving precious resources to attend to the needs of the most vulnerable group, the seniors.
The scientists have after years of practicing alarmism with global warming are just as alarmist with this pandemic with projections based on doubtful data being used to freak people out. A few weeks ago I saw an article that 60 million people would die based on certain modelling which unfortunately doesn’t help in making people to stay calm.

Ian Hawthorn
March 19, 2020 5:07 am

If we had not known coronavirus was out there, I think we would have figured it out around about the time we ran out of respirators, our hospitals were overloaded, and hundreds or thousands of people were dying each day who could have been saved with better care. Look at what is happening in Italy right now. This kind of thing simply doesn’t happen in a typical influenza season. .

Lacbob
March 19, 2020 6:09 am

It is the number of deaths that is important in the end whatever the infection rate actually is. Deaths have reached about 1000 in a day worldwide and are increasing at 10% or more the last few days. 1000 does seem puny but if they carry on increasing at 10% or more the totals will not look so insignificant as time passes. There is also evidence that the death rate increases significantly once medical services are fully extended.
As for the Diamond Princess the seniors on board were not bed bound in a nursing home but active enough to take the cruise. Any who got sick were quickly taken onshore and given treatment by facilities not under pressure. Yet 7 died. It is too early to know what the final outcome will be or if this is the first of many waves or if a mutation happens etc..

Eyes Wide Open
March 19, 2020 6:36 am

One only has to look at Italy to see this is not just like influenza!

Justin Burch
March 19, 2020 7:13 am

Nice analysis but… I keep seeing people saying “It’s just like flu.” Yeah, well maybe but there is a natural base immunity to flu in the population so you simply don’t get the entire herd getting sick at once. What we need to be thinking about is not how many old people will die compared to flu. What we need to think about is this is hitting the healthcare system all at once and it being overwhelmed and medical staff deciding who they can save and who they have to let die. That is not just like flu.

March 19, 2020 7:53 am

Yes, Maybe, No.

“The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.”

Using a non-random group of people; e.g. that tend to be elderly.
Generating any statistics from that population are invalid. e.g. elderly patients are at much greater danger.

There is a flyer published by China/’Hong Kong’, “Coronavirus: the new
disease Covid-19 explained”
, that describes COVID-19 and includes some rough data.
e.g.: Deaths by age ranges

comment image?dl=0
Fatality rates:
Age —- Fatality
Bracket — Rate
0 to 9 — 0%
10 to 19 – 0.2%
20 to 29 – 0.2%
30 to 39 – 0.2%
40 to 49 – 0.4%
50 to 59 – 1.3%
60 to 69 – 3.6%
70 to 79 – 8.0%
80 to 89 – 14.8%

What is unanswered, except for Italy that admits ceasing/lessening ICU/respiratory aid efforts for elderly patients or patients with other serious morbidities, is whether medical treatments were denied to more elderly COVID-19 patients?
A choice that seriously skews data results.

Nor can one consider the “Diamond Princess” a “closed population” as COVID-19 patients and those exposed passengers were offloaded to various countries, including a group to the USA.

Joe Crawford
March 19, 2020 9:56 am

Quoting from the reference provided by Sunny (i.e., https://www.covidtrial.io/):

“A recent well controlled clinical study conducted by Didier Raoult​ M.D/Ph.D, et. al in France has shown that 100% of patients that received a combination of HCQ and Azithromycin tested negative and were virologically cured within 6 days of treatment. “

If that is the case and proves out with a couple of more trials we should be able to shut down all this commotion about COVID-19 and return to normal political infighting and indoctrinating the masses.

Charlie
Reply to  Joe Crawford
March 19, 2020 4:19 pm

Governments do not appear to be supporting this approach, why?

Reply to  Charlie
March 19, 2020 4:35 pm

I think the US is on a fast track to release Hydroxychloroquine… We’ll see soon enough. This seems to have been shown to be quite a miracle substance!

The clinic offered me non-descript antibiotics after 4 days of fever with my recent case of Covid 19. Azithromycin happens to be an antibiotic.

However, I refused the antibiotics because I felt I had no bacterial infection along with the virus. Perhaps the antibiotics were prescribed to alleviate potential bacterial pneumonia which would be a secondary infection to the virus. But my phlegm was and stayed clear and was not that abundant like when I get a bad cold. I only had severe lung gurgles and breathing obstruction that a rescue inhaler made manageable. Anyway fever dropped and most symptoms alleviated after a total of 5 days.

I won’t take antibiotics unless I actually need the help. The literal hangover from broad spectrum antibiotics is not good for overall health.

Joe Crawford
Reply to  mario lento
March 20, 2020 7:20 am

” The literal hangover from broad spectrum antibiotics is not good for overall health.”
My better half was (serially) on practically every antibiotic know to man for 18 months with Lyme disease. The last combination, X-Pack (Azithromycin) and Flagyl, finally got it. But, two months after that she is still feeling the effects of the drugs.

James F. Evans
March 19, 2020 11:07 am

S. I. Hayakawa, wrote, “the map is not the territory.”

What does that mean?

One man’s data & interpretation of that data is not the territory, it’s the map that man has in his hand.

Example: the death rate in China; calculated from who went to the hospital, but many didn’t, they weren’t counted, so that raises the reported death rate. possibly much higher than reality for the overall population who had the virus, but never got sick at all, or not enough, to cause them hospitalization.

Yet, our impression (my impression to) was that the Chinese were under reporting deaths and covering up, but maybe the big scam is that the death rate was actually much lower per people who had the virus.

Map versus territory.

March 19, 2020 11:21 am

Steven Mosher says ‘But in a situation like the USA where there was no plan, no war gaming, no simulation
you get

A) Denial.
B) Panic’
Not exactly true:

October 18, Event 201. Baltimore. Coronavirus nCoV-2019 Simulation and Emergency Preparedness Task Force, John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Health Security.

Big Pharma-Big Money Simulation Exercise sponsored by WEF and Gates Foundation

Simulation Exercise of a coronavirus epidemic which results in 65 million dead. Supported by the World Economic Forum (WEF) representing the interests of Financial institutions, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation representing Big Pharma:

In October 2019, the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security hosted a pandemic tabletop exercise called Event 201 with partners, the World Economic Forum and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. … For the scenario, we modeled a fictional coronavirus pandemic, but we explicitly stated that it was not a prediction.

Instead, the exercise served to highlight preparedness and response challenges that would likely arise in a very severe pandemic. We are not now predicting that the nCoV-2019 outbreak will kill 65 million people.

Although our tabletop exercise included a mock novel coronavirus, the inputs we used for modeling the potential impact of that fictional virus are not similar to nCoV-2019.“We are not now predicting that the nCoV-2019 [which was also used as the name of the simulation] outbreak will kill 65 million people.

.Although our tabletop exercise included a mock novel coronavirus, the inputs we used for modeling the potential impact of that fictional virus are not similar to nCoV-2019.”

Unfortunately, no Government departments attended, hence the denial and panic.

Reply to  Finn McCool
March 19, 2020 3:54 pm

Mosher makes the common error of assuming that because he wasn’t involved, nobody did any simulations or planning. There are more think tanks on Washington’s payroll than anywhere in the world.

Steven Mosher
Reply to  DMacKenzie
March 19, 2020 11:43 pm

“Unfortunately, no Government departments attended, hence the denial and panic.”

john cooknell
March 19, 2020 3:03 pm

But what would you do if you were in the Chief Medical Officers chair, lack of reliable information to build your model.

But you are made responsible for doing something, this is your responsibility and if you get it wrong it is your accountability.

Whatever you do it will be wrong, too many restrictions trash the economy, no restrictions equals health system failure, so you decide to try to protect the effectiveness of the health system by behaviour restrictions.

I would not like to be the ones making such decisions, in UK it highlights the folly of running a health system with no spare capacity which costs less in the short term but costs far more in the long term.

An economic lesson, but will anyone listen?

James F. Evans
March 19, 2020 4:03 pm

“no restrictions equals health system failure”

We don’t know that… however, in an abundance of caution it’s reasonable to try and not catch a bad cold going round.

Rick W Kargaard
March 19, 2020 5:06 pm

How do you avoid the common cold? Simple, avoid contact, avoid probable vectors, avoid close contact, Sometimes I am happy to be a lonely introvert.