Senior Aussie Politician: “Climate deniers are like anti-vaxxers”

Aussie politician Tony Burke. By JasabellaOwn work, CC BY-SA 2.5, Link

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

The virulent climate rhetoric in Australia just stepped up a notch, with senior opposition MP Tony Burke comparing “climate deniers” to people who dispute the value of medical vaccines.

Climate deniers like anti-vaxxers: Labor

Rebecca Gredley

Opposition environment spokesman Tony Burke has likened climate change deniers to anti-vaxxers.

Arguing against the science of climate change is similar to not accepting the merit of vaccinations, a senior federal Labor MP says.

Tony Burke, a former sustainability and environment minister, says the Morrison government’s climate policies continue to be watered down by a handful of MPs who don’t believe in climate change.

“Their arguments are not that different to the anti-vaxxers, in terms of saying: ‘I don’t care what the science says, I have this particular view and I’m just going to say we shouldn’t adopt a policy’,” Mr Burke told Sky News on Thursday.

Mr Burke says he recited some of the warnings to parliament in 2008, but it was labelled as a scare campaign.

Former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull, who was rolled from the top job due to internal disputes in the coalition party room over climate change, has again entered the debate and stirred the pot.

Writing for US publication Time Magazine, Mr Turnbull says the “wicked self-destructive idiocy of climate denialism must stop”.

Read more:

For all his vicious rhetoric, Tony Burke seems more interested in scoring points than actually reducing CO2 emissions. Burke led Labor’s knee-jerk rejection of affordable zero carbon nuclear power when it was briefly tabled as a possibility by Prime Minister Scott Morrison.

Australia has around 23% of the world’s known Uranium reserves.

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Joel O'Bryan
January 16, 2020 10:17 pm

Burke is just projecting his utter ignorance … just like Naomi Oreskes. She an anti-GMO, and anti-vaxxers. That goes along with the belief in the fake science of climate change alarmism.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 17, 2020 1:02 am

Exactly. Every climate alarmist I know is also anti GM foods. Obviously The Science® only applies to the weather as far as they are concerned. Pitiful really.

Also this chop seems to hate “deniers” that only exist in his fevered imagination.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 17, 2020 3:42 am

My problem is not vaccination perse it is when BIG government and Big pharma are controlled by the same people. The same people who control the man made climate hoax and promote the overpopulation dogma. The same people who control the education/indoctrination system etc. There is my problem because these people are not We The People.

Reply to  Robertvd
January 17, 2020 7:16 am

Big pharma isn’t controlled by anyone, and the only people who control big government are the weenies who actually believe that free stuff is possible.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 9:03 am

Big pharma is controlled by unbridled greed and its incestuous, revolving door relationship with government regulatory agencies (regulatory capture) ensures it gets what it wants.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  icisil
January 17, 2020 9:27 am


I think the worst example is “Big Clothing”.

I mean, unless you’re wearing animals skin…STFU.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 17, 2020 5:09 am

Is she really anti-vaccine? She is anti-GMO and anti-nuclear but a quick search indicates that she generally supports the use of vaccines for disease prevention.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 17, 2020 7:46 am

Well, I guess its a bit better than being called a “climate denier” (which doesn’t even make sense), with its totally deliberate attempt to smear by evoking Holocaust denying.

Of course, twits like this will ignore the fact that there is an almost 100% overlap between True Climate Catastrophe Believers and any sort of New Age nonsense.

I mean, its hilarious in my local Facebook neighbourhood group: long discussions about How We Need To Face Climate Change NOW because: SCIENCE!…following by a thread from the new Reiki practitioner (for pets!), or the woman who provides ACCURATE Tarot readings…who is the best local homeopathic shop…etc.

And its all the SAME posters.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
January 17, 2020 2:00 pm

Tony Burke is short on morals. A proven spiv. He has ripped off the taxpayer on many occasions. Australia’s “pencil neck” should not be tell anyone how to run anything.

January 16, 2020 10:28 pm

Readers may have already deduced that senior opposition MP Tony Burke is yet another of the scientifically uniformed members of the Labour Party who goes head-to-head with the Liberal Party in the contest for premier sheltered workshop for ignoramuses.

Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
January 17, 2020 12:05 am

Nothing like insulting a lot of his own voters and next he will expect them to vote for Labor 🙂

Melvyn Dackombe
Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
January 17, 2020 3:40 am

‘ uniformed ‘ ?

Greg Cavanagh
Reply to  Melvyn Dackombe
January 18, 2020 12:36 pm

An abbreviation of “onion formed”. Pretty accurate description actuality 🙂

Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
January 17, 2020 3:41 am

burke by name,
Berk by nature

for the non aussies a berk is a fool idiot clown etc

as to the vax claim
I was laughing today as they announced as if it was actually new info
that the pertussis virus has mutated and the present vax isnt working so well
for those of us who DO take notice follow the pharmas and other that news is over 5 yrs out of date, closer to 10 maybe?the swedish authorities had treated outbreaks in vaxxed kids and given triple doses and STILL had outbreaks, and pretty much decided it was a dud.

the new shingles vax has given toddlers shingles, without them having had chickenpox first.
measles vax is going the same with vaxed kids still getting measles from the vax or from muated versions
ditto Polio giving kids the disease(india, canadian events) renaming it to hide the issue was pretty dirty

so all this is verboten to mention as its “awkward”
talking about GMO lousy trials of 30days or less animals dying in trials and being replaced(trial of 6 calves isnt much of a trial anyway)
never a human trial done using gmo foods for humans in the same means as animal tests are done
we just get increasing incremental doses and they hope the side effects(if any- but without proof? who knows what?) sure is a rise in gut issues and obesity isnt there…

95% of your home use chemicals NOT tested alone or in combo on people, GRAS but not proven so
especially the damned airfreshener items so prevalent as asthma rises???

and never a head on facts and data discussion on the warmists lil bandwagon allowed either

gee I wonder why I see similarities?
ALL the subjects are disallowed for open debate or query and datas private in confidence commercial interest hidden

IF youre skeptical on warming it behooves you to be skeptical of a damn sight more things the PTB want to shut down talk on too!!

Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 17, 2020 3:59 am

Just to clarify. Berk is rhyming slang for Berkeley Hunt. I’ll leave you to work out the rest but he seems aptly named.

Reply to  JeffC
January 17, 2020 5:02 pm

Is that Mike’s brother?

Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 17, 2020 5:16 am

Most issues are so complex that it’s not possible to design experiments to cover all possible factors and combinations. One should be skeptical and realize that truth probably lies between the extremes.

A skeptical mind is less likely to be fooled, and when debate is suppressed then one’s suspicion should be raised to a high level.

Dan Clauser
Reply to  Scissor
January 17, 2020 10:59 am

There’s a really simple vaccination study design that no one will do. Study those vaccinated vs those not vaccinated and see who is healthier. As it stands, vaccines are tested against placebos with all the same adjuvants (aluminum, fetal DNA) which make the vaccine deadly. So, there’s that.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 17, 2020 11:47 am

Right…vaccines are “deadly”.
How do you feel about uncontrolled diseases?

Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 18, 2020 6:02 pm

Typical fact free, low level, silly answer.

Which diseases are uncontrolled and usually deadly?

Do you have EVIDENCE that one vaccine is USEFUL?


Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 18, 2020 6:06 pm

Un-vaccinated people (zero vaccines, or very few) are un-vaccinated for a reason. There are extremely few.

Either they are Amish and they have a totally different lifestyle, which is known to produce less diseases in general. But at least for babies, you should be able to do some comparisons, as babies don’t eat double BigMacs and don’t work in the fields.

Either they are extremely weak in the first place.

So not a possible comparison in most cases. But in a few, yes.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 21, 2020 4:16 pm

So, Dan, you are suggesting they take a bunch of people and give them a placebo instead of a vaccination, then see how many of them get a disease?
Test all vaccines like this?
How often?
Every year or two, take a group of people and withhold an efficacious treatment so we can prove once again that vaccines are the most effective measure against infectious diseases in existence?
They have a name for this sort of thing…it is called unethical.
During clinical trials for a new drug, once it is clear that the drug is effective, it is unethical to continue the study.

Yes, it would be simple to prove that vaccines work…just let a bunch of people get sick and possibly die when a treatment known to be effective is available…because some people have psychotically decided to ignore the history of infectious disease treatment.

Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 17, 2020 11:01 am

Pertussis is caused by the bacterium Bordetella pertussis not a virus. If you can’t get the causative agent correct why should we believe what you say.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 17, 2020 11:45 am

The shingles vaccines are only recommended for people 50 and older, never children.
In the US it is recommended for people older than 60.
Kids do not get shingles, they get chickenpox.
Kids are recommended to get the chickenpox vaccine.
No one claims that kids cannot still get chickenpox after being vaccinated.
Just that70-90% of kids who are vaccinated will not get it, and of those that do get it, over 95% will not get a severe case of it.
Since many vaccines are grown in embryo fibroblast cells, of course there may be DNA present.
Vaccines are grown, not cooked up using chemicals.
Anyone worried about aluminum should check out how much aluminum is in the environment, in all water, all food, everything and everywhere.
It is the third largest constituent of the crust of the Earth.

Vaccines are not perfect…just incredibly better than diseases.
Diseases that people used to die of by the millions in every country, for all of history…until we had vaccines.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 17, 2020 4:42 pm

CAUGHT ON CAMERA: W.H.O Scientists Question Safety Of Vaccines

I do not have anything agains vaccination if necessary.
But when and how.
I do not like multiple mix cocktails vaccine.
Some diseases where deadly before 1900 are not that deadly any more.
Before children where getting 4-5 different vaccine how many now.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  max
January 21, 2020 4:24 pm

Oh…you do not LIKE them!
Why did you not say so.
That clears it up…you just do not like them, so therefore you see no reason not to quote psychotic conspiracy propaganda about vaccines on a public forum.
There did not used to be as many vaccines, so therefore something is amiss.

Your contention that some deadly diseases are not deadly anymore sounds like irrational lunacy to most people…what is your evidence?
What diseases?
The ones that we do not see much of anymore…because of vaccines and other treatments like immunoglobulins?
When are vaccines “not necessary”?
When you do not like them…we got that, or when there are too many of them, check.
And for all the diseases which are no longer deadly…right.
But other than that you have no problem with them, and you are a rational person, eh?

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 17, 2020 6:50 pm

Our 11-yr old (at the time) had shingles; fortunately relatively mildly. No immunisation at that time.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  Annie
January 21, 2020 4:27 pm
Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 18, 2020 6:00 pm

“Vaccines are grown, not cooked up using chemicals.”

Nope. You fail.

“vaccines are” (general truth re: vaccines) is the telltale sign of the provax crank.

You have to specify which variant of a vaccine against what.

Please stop babbling about a subject matter you know nothing about, except for a few mantras, the symptom of your willful brainwashing.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 17, 2020 11:52 am

Personally, unhinged rants about “household chemicals” and the danger of “deadly vaccines” and the conspiracy to poison us all with them, while apparently having nothing bad to say about diseases and what life was like before we had chemicals and vaccines…sounds an awful lot like the unhinged rants of the people who see a climate catastrophe all around us.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 18, 2020 5:56 pm

What life was before what exactly?

When measles was still considered a mild childhood disease (which is almost always is)?

Before the crazy vaccine schedule, autism, MS, and childhood serious allergies and diabetes were rare or unheard of (40 years ago, nobody outside the medical world even knew the words “MS”).

Because a single victim of the hep B vaccine who got MS received 3 millions euros, a quick estimation shows that to indemnify all victim of just that vaccine you would nearly double French state debt.

Who told you there is a conspiracy to poison? The conspiracy to sell stuff doesn’t care about poison. That’s the idea.

It’s the most serious civilization issue today. Nobody is willing to even mention vaccines as a subject of legitimate criticism on US TV except Tucker Carlson just once.

Your fake history of abject misery and deadly plagues before vaccines is an invention, a con, a hoax, a stupid story that no person (who doesn’t have many shrapnels or a huge tumor) in his head has any excuse to believe.

You are the absolute 100% warmistas of the diseases. You take proxies for real things and you dismiss past changes. You are all phony climate skeptics if you accept the climate science of medicine (medicine is mostly a con exactly like 3 centuries ago but with a few good bits in between).

You exhibit provax derangement syndrome.

Dan Clauser
Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 22, 2020 10:19 am

It would certainly be unethical if vaccines were either safe or effective, and provably so. But since they’re not, and they don’t have to be as extensively studied as any other drug before release, and since (in America) no one is allowed to sue the manufacturer for harm or death, and since any monetary consequences (in America) are paid by the taxpayer and the drug company cannot be found to be at fault, and since (even with all these provisions in place) we’ve paid out over $4 Billion in vaccine injury/death claims, and since the same government and non-government bodies that police the vaccines have patented monetary interest in having vaccines be mandatory, then no, it’s not unethical at all to demand a study be done between vaxxed and unvaxxed populations.

And if you’re so concerned with the control group, why not just gather the data from the voluntarily unvaxxed already in the community. I have 8 children who could supply data of the unvaxxed community currently. Seems to me it shouldn’t be too difficult to find hoards of people like me with kids whose health records could be studied against the chronically ill children of the largest drug experiment known to man.

Steve Keppel-Jones
Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 22, 2020 12:13 pm

For extra fun, ask your pediatrician for some evidence of the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines she’s planning to inject your kids with, and watch her squirm. “But, but, we just *know* they’re safe. Trust us!” That isn’t science, people…

Apparently there was an attempt to do a long-term safety and effectiveness trial with a proper control group, a while ago, in California I believe. They had to shut it down after a couple of years because the vaccinated group was SO sickly compared to the control group. That didn’t make front-page news though…

Yes, vaccines are at least as politically biased (and evidence-free) as CAGW. And no, believing the medical profession’s platitudes is not a substitute for doing your own research.

Bob in Castlemaine
Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 18, 2020 5:24 pm
Caligula Jones
Reply to  nicholas tesdorf
January 17, 2020 7:58 am

Speaking of the scientifically informed:

With the recent Prince Harry kerfuffle, I’ve tried to ascertain the current level of republicanism in Australia (I mean, with the fires and heat and all, I know you have other things to worry about I know).

Would the “under/over” of Australia leaving a Commonwealth led by King Charles be measured in weeks or months?

January 16, 2020 10:38 pm

There appears to be no practical understanding of real science in the academically bereft Labor Party, long may they stay in miserable opposition – blind fools all of them

Reply to  Technetium99
January 16, 2020 11:25 pm

Thanks for getting the name correct. It’s LABOR people. Not ‘Labour’. And I couldn’t agree more. The whole lot of them are ex union thugs and/or lawyers. It’s no wonder they depend on preferences from the greens. They haven’t won an election in their own right or on their own merits in the last 50 years. Every time they have got in to power it’s because of the greens preferences and some other left leaning minorities. When you take your scientific advice from the greens you be assured it will be total nonsense for the most part.

Martin A
Reply to  Pete
January 17, 2020 1:09 am

Pete January 16, 2020 at 11:25 pm
In Britain we spell it ‘labour’. As in ‘colour, ‘ardour’, etc.

Reply to  Martin A
January 17, 2020 1:20 am

Martin we spell it the same way here in Australia too if we are describing work such as labour hire or going in to labour when about to give birth. It’s quite a mystery to me as to why the ALP which is the Australian Labor Party spelled their name the way they did. Maybe they weren’t too bright that day in the heat at Barcaldine where the party was formed. I do know that the founders of the party would be rolling in their graves if they knew what their party has become. They are truly lost and have succumbed to the leftist ideology. Interestingly as well, here our current Government is arguably conservative but they are known as the Liberal party although it is a coalition government with the National party which is also conservative. It’s all a bit back to front but that’s how it is!

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Pete
January 17, 2020 2:09 am

IIRC, it was spelled “Labour” before but changed for some reason around Federation, 1910-ish.

Bryan A
Reply to  Martin A
January 17, 2020 10:05 am

O U Brits.

January 16, 2020 10:53 pm

It could be said that Climate Alarmists are just like the people, scientists and lay persons alike, who followed the so called science of avoiding dietary cholesterol for decade after decade only to have that recently overturned. Science makes mistakes, huge mistakes

Reply to  MrZee
January 17, 2020 1:09 am

The saturated fat, dietary cholesterol scam was an exact parallel with AGW. It started when poor to non-existent science was exaggerated in the popular press. The reputedly rational medical community was swept along on the popular wave of hysteria. When data was finally collected as early as the 1980s and found to be contradictory to the mainstream party line, it was ignored for decades and even now, large portions of the population still believe the bad cholesterol fantasy. Correcting a full on MSM fear campaign is not an easy undertaking. The threads of rationality are easily broken and hard to mend.

Dan Clauser
Reply to  BCBill
January 17, 2020 11:01 am

now do vaccines

Peter D
Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 17, 2020 3:00 pm

Vaccines effects are well studied. The WHO has a great website. Sources quoted, data published. Vaccines work, they save lives, and people live longer.
Vaccines are not perfect for multiple reasons, most of which can be managed. The hardest is the prevelence of conciencious objectors.
Before I retired, it was eerie going to a third world country, and just not seeing vaccine preventable diseases. Then I came back to Australia and had to counsel parents who were vaccine objectors, watching there kids fighting for life from a vaccine preventable illness.

Dan Clauser
Reply to  Peter D
January 20, 2020 9:14 am

Vaccines are well studied? In 1986 a law in America mandated safety studies every three years. A recent lawsuit uncovered none have been done. No double blind placebo studies have been done vaccine vs no vaccine. No study has been done of vaxxed vs unvaxxed populations.

Reply to  Peter D
January 20, 2020 9:29 am

Vaccines are supposed to protect for life. How do you study that?

Even a child would see the crackpotism in what you just wrote.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  Peter D
January 20, 2020 8:54 pm

Nice Guy: ‘“vaccines are” (general truth re: vaccines) is the telltale sign of the provax crank.’
Also Nice Guy: “Vaccines are supposed to protect for life.”

Psychological projection and irrational argumentation…the hallmarks of the deluded.

Reply to  Peter D
January 21, 2020 12:55 am

Absolute pure garbage from you.

You can’t parse English and can’t follow a discussion. You have no basic knowledge, no understanding of discourse, nothing. Your replies are empty and filthy, like Bug Pharma propaganda. They are targeted at the people with a hole in their head.

You are polluting the discussion. You are lame, boring, silly, annoying, and also, illiterate. Your mere attempt at entering the debate is a pollution.

Don’t bother me ever again. You are unworthy.

January 16, 2020 11:00 pm

Why must anybody believe these lies? The u.n has been lying since at least 1966, not one of their predictions has come true, The ice hasn’t melted, polar bears are healthy and their number are growing, florida isn’t under water…

I feel as though the greens are the new communists or new nazi party, either follow the leader or labeled a fool

Reply to  Sunny
January 17, 2020 2:09 am

And just to remind, it was the Nazi party that paid a pivotal role in the design of party values and recommendations on how to push this ideology to people. In fact, if you read Mein Kampf, you’ll find lots of Green “politics” in it.

Reply to  Harry
January 20, 2020 9:31 am

“it was the Nazi party that paid a pivotal role …”

And the same focus on the diseases the vaxxers have.

January 16, 2020 11:03 pm

‘uniformed members’ should be ‘uninformed members’

Alan the Brit
Reply to  Owen_in_NZ
January 17, 2020 12:05 am

In light of Sunny’s comment above, “I feel as though the greens are the new communists or new nazi party, either follow the leader or labeled a fool”, uniformed members seems fairly appropriate! I wonder, when the Greens finally come for the likes of me, to silence me permanently, de ja vu, will they go for fracked natural gas to do so, or good old Xylon-B, mind you natural gas would probably be cheaper re Carbon Emission!!!!! 😉

George Lawson
Reply to  Alan the Brit
January 17, 2020 3:35 am

” I wonder, when the Greens finally come for the likes of me, to silence me permanently, de ja vu,”

They have already succeeded through the good offices of the BBC, who have the temerity to ban all opposing views on the phoney subject of global warming. We must realise that the BBC is the biggest distributer of news across the world, and in refusing to recognise their responsibility in ensuring balanced reporting by letting their worldwide television and radio audiences hear the views of scientists and the general public who do not agree with their one-sided views, they are hugely distorting the worldwide view on the subject. They ban opposing views on such an inconclusive subject for the only reason that the dogma has been predetermined by the Green bosses of the BBC who have set their own agenda and for which they find it convenient to use this previously respected PUBLIC service for which they are responsible. They promote their one-sided Green madness without the risk of being challenged with logical argument. I am quite convinced that without the massive support of the one-sided BBC, the argument would be nothing like as supportive of the GW dogma as it is at the moment. I even believe that the BBC directors are now, more than ever, determined to push their distorted views harder and to a greater level of scaremongering, since in the last few weeks there has hardly been a news bulletin in the UK when global warming has not been covered on television or radio, with numerous, often ridiculous, one-sided programmes broadcasting impending doom. The British Parliament should have the courage to sack the whole of the BBC management from the director general down for mis-using the hitherto respected worldwide service, for promoting their own agenda and as such bringing the service into disrepute: that way we might quieten down from the global warming hysteria that these disgraceful people are falsely generating.

Reply to  George Lawson
January 17, 2020 7:51 pm

We must realise that the BBC is the biggest distributer of news across the world, and in refusing to recognise their responsibility in ensuring balanced reporting by letting their worldwide television and radio audiences hear the views of scientists and the general public who do not agree with their one-sided views, they are hugely distorting the worldwide view on the subject.

When finished scanning for stations, delete ABC, BBC and SBS, and you’re good to go.

Then ask your Brit PM why the BBC still exists, and what is he going to do about it?

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Alan the Brit
January 17, 2020 8:59 am

“or good old Xylon-B”

Never heard of that one. Maybe it’s a new wonder drug?

Zyklon-B, on the other hand, is bad.

J Mac
January 16, 2020 11:21 pm

Tony Burke, like Malcolm Turnbull, exemplifies the aphorism
“Politicians are like diapers, they need to be changed often, and for the same reasons.”
Time for another ‘change’, Australia….

Bill Powers
Reply to  J Mac
January 17, 2020 12:52 pm

Point well made J Mac, And just like a diaper is rarely confused for a handkerchief, so Tony Burke will never be confused with a Climate Expert but then I have been asking for years what qualifies one as a Climate Expert and more importantly why can’t they explain the difference between Man Made warming and that natural variability kind of Global Warm…Ahhh Climate Change because it seems to me if they can’t control the latter, then all this talk about fossil fuel is for naught. Anyway, we can clean up a scientist just like a handkerchief but we need to limit them to their designed purpose, sciency stuff and stay out of policy making. As for these smelly politicians, they need to be deposited in the trash.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  J Mac
January 17, 2020 6:29 pm

They are all cut from the same cloth so would make little difference at this time. However, with the demographics changing in Australia quite rapidly this will change. More and more voters are turning away from the traditional, predominantly while male, two party system (ALP and the LNP), in favour of smaller, more representative parties.

Tom Bostock
January 16, 2020 11:28 pm

A perceptive comment , Nicholas, although I think you meant uninformed.

January 16, 2020 11:30 pm

We the voters just love to vote for imbeciles and morons.

Reply to  Karabar
January 17, 2020 9:45 am

For those who promise FREE stuff.

So they have to raise taxes and make the printing press work like crazy devaluing the fiat money we use making your savings disappear like snow in global warming. And for all Americans who still think they live in a free country Form 1040 tells you you are less than a slave (like in every direct tax system)

January 16, 2020 11:54 pm

To quote Billy Hughes, Australian PM a century ago, and one time leader of Tony Burke’s Labor Party,
“If he paved the road from Brisbane to Birdsville with Bibles and swore an oath on each one of them, I wouldn’t believe a bloody word he said”.
(Probably apocryphal but on the money).

Patrick MJD
January 16, 2020 11:59 pm

Burke is an opposition MP and Turnbull is no longer in Govn’t. Their opinions don’t matter.

January 17, 2020 12:08 am

I have a problem. Can someone help?
I am a climate sceptic ( I am actually not concerned if you call me a denier).
I know it’s near impossible to discuss climate change with a Marxist / greenie.
But how do I approach a friend, work colleague or relative or even a self serving politician who “believes “ in climate change.
It normally goes like this.
A work colleague ask “Do you believe in climate change.”
I say “No I understand it”
I then have to go on explaining things like IPCC, CMIPs emissions scenarios, sea level rise.
They don’t know any of this and just say stuff like I must be reading conspiracy blogs.
The average believer including these politicians don’t actually know any of the science the are arguing I don,t believe in. It’s very frustrating.
I am now wondering if I am the idiot for not just challenging them and get them to explain everything. Does anyone have a good tactic for explaining the sceptics position to “believer” friends( who you want to keep)
Thanks in advance.

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 1:05 am

Wax’s it’s possibly better just to answer something like “yes, I believe the climate is changing. Always has and always will. “ If they then start haranguing you about rising temperatures and CO2, just politely ask them to please explain what the optimum temperature is and how that would relate to every part of the globe – assuming they understand that it’s hotter close to the equator and colder close to the poles. Next ask them what the optimum CO2 level should be. Then ask them Why all of the proposed solutions to climate change involve socialism and economic destruction when it’s an atmospheric problem.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Pete
January 17, 2020 2:32 am

“Pete January 17, 2020 at 1:05 am

Next ask them what the optimum CO2 level should be.”

I have done that and their answer is pre-IR levels, or around 280ppm/v (As estimated). Some consider 280ppm/v some sort of baseline for global temperature and climate. I have no idea how they determined that and when asked how they arrived at that number no answer was given.

Reply to  Patrick MJD
January 17, 2020 7:24 am

When they tell you pre_IR, ask which pre-IR and point out that over the last 100 million years or so, CO2 levels have varied from 280ppm to around 7000ppm.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 7:55 pm

The start of what most consider to be the IR was in 1750-1760, so I will go with that. Even so, how many thermometers were there and what was the actual CO2 concentration? And yet, these factors are considered to be perfect, a baseline, for global temperature and climate.


Reply to  Patrick MJD
January 17, 2020 7:24 am

Greens tend to assume that any change caused by man is evil.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 7:54 am

Greens tend to be low information people who may have taken a math class sometime in the last few decades and received an inflated grade of “C” just to move them on.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 9:06 am

“Greens tend to assume that any change caused by man is evil.”

I’ll change that just a bit.

They assume all change is evil and caused by man.

Bill Powers
Reply to  Pete
January 17, 2020 1:04 pm

Good answer Pete and the key is to have them explain to you what dynamics are at work and how Governments intend to control them.

But I would stay away from asking about CO2 but rather what is the optimum global surface temperature. The friend or work associate cannot possible explain what the IPCC cannot in laymans terms.

Waza needs to challenge them to find out since the Government intends to implement un-connectable policies that will simultaneously drive up their cost of living while driving down the quality of life and those things Waza can quantify and explain at much more frightening personal level than the nebulous hobgoblin of Global warm…ah we really meant climate change all along.

Reply to  Bill Powers
January 17, 2020 4:26 pm

Thanks for all the good advice

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 1:10 am

You don’t have to become an expert on all aspects of climate science. You can become an expert on the misrepresentation of climate science to service an agenda. Time after time I, along with the rest of the public, have been assailed with tales of the fast-approaching climate apocalypse, yet every piece of scientific “evidence” that was ever used to prop up this fantasy has been found to either be non-existent or a gross distortion of the facts or an just a pathetic barefaced lie.

Has mankind changed the climate? No.
Will humans ever change the climate even a little bit? Short of engaging in a nuclear war, no, never, and it does not matter how much fossil fuel we use (in fact, this holds true even if we used up all the fossil fuels instantly today) because it can never be enough to alter the climate on way or the other. This is because carbon dioxide is heavier than air and it will remain heavier than air for ever. All the carbon dioxide whether created by man or nature is not up in the sky-it is down around your ankles where it turns into plant food.

Whatever you have done, or will do, your carbon footprint is 0.

Reply to  Sasha
January 17, 2020 6:00 am

Its sometimes better to say nothing than reveal your total lack of knowledge about mixing of gases………

Do you think the atmosphere is made up of layers of gases? That you cannot lie down or you will be in mortal danger because your nose is out of the oxygen layer?

We changed the climate a little with particulate pollution, we might have a tiny impact with CO2.

Reply to  Sasha
January 17, 2020 7:26 am

If it were true that all the CO2 is down around the ground, then anyone who goes into a basement would quickly suffocate.

Reply to  Sasha
January 17, 2020 8:15 pm

Yes, exactly like the tale of the pandemic flu made up from thin air by WHO, by changing the definition, which the MSM denied and called a conspiracy theory, by which they mean “well known, officially documented decision” by WHO.

Then the same stalino-hitlerist journos called any attempt to hold the fraudsters accountable a conspiracy theory.

It’s simply a crisis of civilization. And the most taboo subject on the MSM.

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 1:15 am

If you want to just walk away – leave them with the thought that the word “believe” belongs in religion not science. In science, it’s what the data says.

Sorry but this won’t help you much.

Henry Galt
Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 1:19 am

Hi Waza. Sorry to tell you but ….

The only cycle that recurs consistently;state (your position), inform (using authoritative citations), defend (from the insulting, belief driven diatribe that ensues [this may just be reaction to *my* demeanor your mileage may vary]) and retreat (if you want to keep your friends before they ‘block’ you, pillory, insult further and threaten in a lot the majority of cases).

You can quote NASA, the IPCC, any .gov or .edu resource. Doesn’t make any difference usually. Folk choose their ‘side’ out of fear, laziness, spite, deference to their own ignorance in the face of the propaganda from the powerful and innumerable vested interests and once respected institutions. The defense of that chosen belief then takes control of their cognition and frontal lobe. The lights are on but there’s nobody home.

Disabuse folk of their cherished, possibly entrenched, positions and you get what you get.

Alan Chappell
Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 1:42 am

Just read history, that iis very very hard to change.

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 2:52 am

Well, if you live in the UK then you are wasting your breath. There is absolutely no media platform for climate change scepticism.

All alarmists need to do is quote David Attenborough and the argument is over.

I am still waiting for some brave soul to stand up in parliament and say the climate emergency is a load of b0ll0x.

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 3:18 am

Really simple answer is: I respectfully decline to answer. Your mother told you that it was bad manners to discuss politics or religion in public or with good friends. Say: To me, this “climate change” is the worst mixture of these topics that is being used to divide people and separate healthy friendships. And there are so many other such divisive topics that we don’t talk about now for this same reason. Can you think of some?

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 4:05 am

smile at them when they admit to NO actual reading or fact finding themselves
and ask WHY? do you take a talking head on TV or radios word for something so supposedly crucial to your life..
and suggest they take a month or two to start getting educated enough to HAVE a viable opinion

it might alienate some, hopefully it makes em niggly enough to try n learn to prove you wrong;-)
but if they dont care enough to have an informed opinion then their opinions worth jackschitt anyway

Ian W
Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 4:44 am

Say: we are in the Quaternary ice age, in an interglacial we call the Holocene. Most of Earth’s geologic history the poles have been clear of ice. We are at the cold end of the Holocene inter glacial which started with rapid changes of temperature called the Younger Dryas far faster changes than temperature changes now. The Holocene Optimum (called that because life flourished) was warmer than the Minoan optimum which was warmer than the Roman optimum which was warmer than the Medieval Warm period and our current warm period is cooler than the Medieval warm period. At the end of the Medieval Warm Period was the Little Ice Age which we are just finishing warming out of. So yes I completely agree with Climate Change – but not that Carbon Dioxide has anything to do with it.
The temperature changes with height in the atmosphere (wet and dry adiabatic lapse rates) can be calculated from the gas laws with no regard to presence of CO2. The temperature of the surface of planets can be calculated accurately with no reference to ‘green house gases’. The temperatures in geologic time compared to levels of CO2 show no correlation except that changes in CO2 levels seem to lag changes in temperature as would be expected by outgassing from the oceans in line with Henry’s Law.
So yes I agree with Climate Change. However, humanity and levels of CO2 have nothing to do with it and there is no observational evidence that they do, but lots of observational evidence that they do not.

Reply to  Ian W
January 17, 2020 5:57 am

I typically ask people two questions. First, are we currently living in an ice age. I’ve yet to get a single “yes” answer to this one. Second, I ask what “record” the media is referring to when they state that some recent year was “the hottest year on record”. The typical answer is the “forever” record. After telling them its the modern thermometer era from the mid 1880s they look surprised. After a quick mention of the MWP and the Little Ice Age I advise them to do a bit of research on the topic.

Reply to  Marc
January 17, 2020 7:32 am

You can also tell them that back in the 1880’s, the earth temperature was being measured using a few hundred thermometer, mostly in Europe and N. America. You can also mention that until recently, thermometers were read by eye, and the result recorded only to the nearest degree, but that might be eye glazing over kill for some.
It wasn’t until 1979 that we had the first, nearly global temperature measurements. (Nearly global because the poles still aren’t covered.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 7:33 am

egad, I used the ‘K’ word and got set to moderation. Sheesh, can’t we get an intelligent filter?

Caligula Jones
Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 10:08 am

….and you might want to (gently so you don’t scare them) start in on what a “proxy” is, and how, for instance using tree rings as an example – as most of us are familiar with them – (as opposed to, say, exotic snail shells or sand in a lake in Finland) they are “accurate” to about 4 degrees…

(I know, my high school English teacher is rolling over in his grave but its Friday…)

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 6:16 am

Sometimes, the best response to a question like that is something simple, such as this: “Sure. The climate changes on a recurring basis. Over the past 3.5 billion years, it has changed repeatedly. It shows up in the geological records. Don’t you know that?”

There are other items, as well, such as when they fret about CO2 levels in the atmosphere is less than 4% overall and the oxygen level is where it should be at 20%. Any higher than that, and we’d die of hyperoxemia (oxygen poisoning). Tell them to look that up.

Just simple stuff like that can deflate an argument before it starts. Keeping it simple and making them do their own look-ups might help.

J Mac
Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 9:21 am

I think you missed a decimal point or 2. CO2 in the atmosphere is 0.04% by volume, or 414 ppm (parts per million). That’s why it is called a ‘trace’ gas. Water vapor in the atmosphere varies from 0% – 4%, depending on local saturation. Oxygen is 21%. Nitrogen is 78%.

Reply to  J Mac
January 17, 2020 12:18 pm

Sorry. You’re right. I made a typo. My bad!! Thanks for the tip!

J Mac
Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 1:10 pm

No problem…. My ham hands sometimes don’t follow my commands either! };>)

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 6:36 am

You have to stun em by declaring CC to be Bullschist from first mention. Then whilst their software is resetting you might make some inroads, but the window is small. 🙂

As with everything, confidence is the route to success, and its worth remembering that as a reader of WUWT you will be in possession of more data regarding CC than 99% of people you meet. They will by and large, and like the proverbial pillow, merely carry the impression of the last ‘Shock’ headline the Blob have put out.

Reply to  Waza
January 17, 2020 5:48 pm

Waza, Pete’s answer is a good one but it’s tricky. Most artists seem to have leftist values, though I am an artist, I am a climate skeptic and no lefty either. For years I avoided discussions with my friends, some of them long term, about politics or CC.

I moved to the country in May of last year and had reason to research solar farms, discovered that 300 hectares worth was being built a few kilometers from our house. Anyway my learning curve regarding CC has gone up like Michael Mann’s hockey stick!

My situation is a little different to yours, I have geographical distance from my friends now. As I’d had almost no contact from them I decided I had nothing to lose, so about four months ago I emailed off information that I’d gathered regarding CC along with news about life in general. Most didn’t bother to respond, of the twenty people I contacted one remains a friend.

CC is pretty much a religion, the saying goes “don’t discuss religion or politics”, it can get heated. Religion is based on a belief system, science on facts.

High Treason
January 17, 2020 12:24 am

Confirms my suspicions that vaccinations are tainted. Mind you, it is only a matter of time before “climate deniers” are jailed or executed. At least we won’t be burned at the stake.

Henry Galt
Reply to  High Treason
January 17, 2020 1:25 am

Deep down they would like nothing more than to burn us but, it would release filthy CO2 dontcha know.

Forgive me if you missed the /sarc tag after ‘stake’. An edit function should be along anytime.

Roger Smith
January 17, 2020 12:29 am

I wonder how he would have proposed vaccinating the Assyrian Empire against climate change at the time. Is it a lefty thing they believe they can create Utopia with man made intervention and control over everything? If at first you don’t succeed locally aspire globally with the hubris.

January 17, 2020 12:49 am

That’s funny, because I keep thinking that climate alarmists are like anti-vaxxers!
Manipulation of data and facts so they fit the hypothesis. Tick.
Anecdotal evidence. Tick.
Frequent references to “a growing body of evidence” supporting the hypothesis, with references to things like newspaper articles.
The idea that their Google searches are more relevant than (e.g.) my PhD.
I could go on.

Reply to  AD
January 17, 2020 1:23 am

Same with the word Luddite. These paradigmatic Luddites calling other, normal people Luddites first is their MO. Easily explained by the fact that if you’re a parasite of humanity, you have to be the aggressor. Normal people don’t have time for it as they’re just trying to enjoy getting on with it, and being positive about their lives.

Reply to  AD
January 17, 2020 4:00 am

hmm so you reckon a fluvax thats around 29 to 30% at best effective for anyone over 50, is a good idea to pump into everyone yearly?
in Aus our authorities over rode manufacturers advice to NOT give the flu and pnumovax within a month of each other(they both appear to reduce each others effectiveness) yes i DID read the makers trials and other data ..I always do
and continuing to promote a vax thats close to useless cos they bought millions of doses so might as well use it?
last 3 yrs thats been the result.

Im NOT entirely anti vax, but am disgusted with the amount age and frequency as well as multiple virus assaults on immune system methods being used .
I am considering the pnumovax as I age but as an arthritic the immune response deters me, its a fine line between some protection or a reaction and pain I dont need more of.

Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 17, 2020 6:30 am

29 to 30%, at best, effective for preventing a mild sickness while receiving the chance of getting Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) and being debilitated for life. What a deal! btw the preponderance of vaccine injury awards in the US are granted for flu-vaccine-caused GBS. Anyone who says flu shots can’t cause GBS are just ignorant; it’s listed as a side effect on the vaccine packaging.

Reply to  ozspeaksup
January 17, 2020 6:58 am

Most anti-vaxxers are not against vaccines at all. They want safe vaccines without all of the toxic additives and aborted human fetal cell lines.

Reply to  icisil
January 17, 2020 7:37 am

There are no toxic additives and human fetal cell lines is just another myth.

Lots of people die from the flu, even more did so before vaccines became common.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 8:52 am

You sure have a bad habit of making easily falsifiable assertions that make you look foolish.

Reply to  MarkW
January 18, 2020 8:38 am

Merck’s MMR II vaccine (as well as the chickenpox, Pentacel, and all Hep-A containing vaccines) is manufactured using human fetal cell lines and is heavily contaminated with human fetal DNA from the production process. Levels in our children can reach up to 5 ng/ml after vaccination, depending on the age, weight and blood volume of the child. That level is known to activate Toll-like receptor 9 (TLR9), which can cause autoimmune attacks.

Open Letter: Fetal DNA in Vaccines

Reply to  icisil
January 17, 2020 10:59 am


One of the major issues appears to be than any form of adjuaent that stimulates the immune system (unnaturally) the way they do will potentially risk auto-immunity, as appears to be fairly well accepted as happening in dogs. So…the issue in not just the nature of the adjuvant, but the action it creates. This risk appears to be greater in people with intestinal permeability. AI conditions are in many cases far worse than what the vaccine is trying to protect against.

Reply to  icisil
January 18, 2020 4:54 am

If top health professionals are questioning the safety of vaccines, why aren’t you?

Reply to  icisil
January 18, 2020 12:53 pm

I disagree. The flu and hep B cause immunological problems. Many death of the flu aren’t pneumonia but immune reaction issues, and influenza is accused of causing narcolepsy (doubtful though) and Guillain-Barré. Hep B rarely causes acute syndromes that may be auto immune disorders, but these rare cases are the very reason the vaccine was promoted.

Either way, I don’t want a vaccine that tries to be the best mimicry of a virus known to cause immune issues.

For measles and other childhood diseases, they caused very few death in first world countries before mass vaccination and there is no evidence vaccination is beneficial and a lot of elements suggesting that even discounting the SE of vaccines, mass vaccination is a bad idea, as previously protected population (protected by the lack of mass vaccination) are now in the reach of the virus.

Reply to  AD
January 17, 2020 5:30 am

Your PhD? Lofl!
I am continually amazed by such intelligent people being so unintelligent when outside their area of understanding.
I can tell you, sir, with 100% confidence, you have no idea what you’re talking about with vaccines. You have no evidence to support your position. Not one vaccine has ever prevented or eliminated one infectious disease. Every single disease for which there is a vaccine was almost gone before the vaccine. Not ONE double blind inert placebo study has ever been done for one vaccine. Never one. Yet you believe they are safe and effective?? That’s hilarious. I guess you’ve never heard of the vaccine court, which has paid out over 4 BILLION in damages to those injured or KILLED by vaccines, and it is estimated only 1% of adverse reactions are reported, much less make it to the court.
Have you ever even read the vaccine inserts? That’s a rhetorical question!!
Not a single one of you doctors, scientists or PhD’s can support vaccines with evidence. Like the climate change bullcrap, the data used by the establishment is all corrupted, manipulated or made up. Take that to the bank!
I give Anthony permission to share my email with you if you’d care to carry the discussion further.

Reply to  Matt
January 17, 2020 6:21 am

Oh, golly, gee whiz – I guess you’re never seen what damage smallpox can do, have you, Matt? Or polio – that’s just a hoot, right?
I hope some day your mind opens up to alternative points of view.

Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 6:56 am

Not all vaccines are equal in effectiveness or composition.

Some have toxic adjuvants (aluminum) and preservatives (thimerisol, i.e., mercury). It makes no sense to inject developing infants younger than a year old with such neurotoxins, especially in their mandated quantities (something like 15 in year 1; 26 by year 2). It’s insane and inhumane.

Some are made from aborted human fetal cell lines. Autism change points (marked increases in autism) correlate well with approvals of aborted human fetal cell lines for use in various vaccines. Autistic children have antibodies to human DNA; non-autistic children do not.

Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 8:10 am

I understand your point of view, but polio, which is also called infantile paralysis, can and does strike unvaccinated INFANTS, icisil.

Not all vaccines are equally effective, no. In fact, the current flu vaccine is less effective than it should be, so what’s the point of getting it, right?

BUT – measles can kill a non-vaccinated adult, as happened in Australia a few years back when it “jumped the fence” from a race track to a nearby farm and infected and killed some of the workers there.

Nothing is perfect, but vaccines do have some benefit.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 10:14 am

Anti-vaxxers: “My neighbour’s house was broken into despite them having a lock on their door. I’m not going to chance putting a lock on my door, its a waste of money.

Also anti-vaxxer: “Waaaahhh…the same thieves broke into my house and stole everything…

Or…give’em all a free ticket to the Congo:

or Samoa:

Seriously, unless they’re nudists or wear clothing they’ve made themselves out of cotton they grew, or a bear they killed (so that they aren’t in the pay of “Big Clothing”, perhaps they should stop relying on aging Playboy centerfolds for scientific advice.

Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 10:53 am

Measles is essentially harmless. More people die from the MMR vaccine than from the disease. Look it up; here, I’ll get you started

ZERO U.S. Measles Deaths in 10 Years, but Over 100 Measles Vaccine Deaths Reported

For a little perspective… before the fear mongering…

Caligula Jones
Reply to  icisil
January 17, 2020 11:10 am

I’m not even going to click on yet another fact-free website.

I can tell everything I need to know FROM THE FREAKING URL.


Math not your strong suit, is it?

A C Osborn
Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 12:59 pm

So let me rewrite that for you.
Due the the Vaccination program reducing the effects of Measles there are no longer deaths & crippling side affects like there used to be when thousands of kids suffered from the full blown affects.
Of course the the price of thousands being better off every year may be some deaths caused by the vaccination process.
How about some real world results.
World wide Measles mortality rates dropped 73% between 2000 and 2018, but it is still at 14,000/year.

Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 7:09 pm

No, measles was considered a joke for healthy children in the 60ties. Except in very few cases.

That measles was terrifying and horrific is a modern invention, pretty much like flat Earth. And the same brainwashed people fell for both.

Now the vaccine prevents natural circulation of the germs, so children aren’t naturally immunized, which is used by totalitarian vaxxers to justify vaccination, pretty much like the failure of green energy is used to justify more green energy.

There is no evidence what so ever of the benefits of almost all vaccines and wide spread denial of their harms that even a 12 years old would see. In fact 12 years old (or 10 years old? I fear schooling as its brainwashing effect on teens) are probably better naturally prepared to see the harms as most adults have had their brains destroyed by decades of brainwashing and systemic destruction of common sense by “adults” who are mostly behaving like people escaped from the asylum. Denial of the immediate, obvious contradictions and transparent lies of vaxxers is the most common unnamed mental illness.

Children are being groomed into behaving more like “adults” aka insane people. The discourse of “adults” is transparent craziness, from “don’t jump from a bridge etc.” (which is a particularly inept advice) to “respect your teachers” (aka repeat their mantras) “follow the consensus” “we must implement that policy because most other 1st world countries do”.

Next to a vaxxer, a never-trumper could look almost sane, realistic, and intellectually functional. Vaxxism is the ultimate religious cult, and its protected by Tweeter, Facebook, etc. For that reason alone they must absolutely lose their protection as neutral conduits.

Reply to  Sara
January 17, 2020 11:49 pm

Call us back when a lock caused autism, diabetes, narcolepsy and MS.

You really have a very neg-understanding of science and medicine. It means you know a lot less than children you know nothing. You have absolute negative understanding.

Reply to  Sara
January 18, 2020 4:46 am

If medical health professionals themselves are questioning vaccine safety, why aren’t you?

Reply to  Matt
January 17, 2020 7:38 am

Wow, so much mis-information, and so much confidence that his sources can’t be wrong while everyone who says otherwise is lying.

There is not a single thing that you wrote that comes even close to being accurate.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 9:20 am

Not a single thing? You make so many confident assertions that are so obviously wrong.

$4 Billion and Growing: U.S. Payouts for Vaccine Injuries and Deaths Keep Climbing

The Health Resources & Services Administration just released new dollar figures reflecting payouts from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. The payouts for vaccine injuries just went past the whopping $4 billion mark. Using the government’s own conclusion that only 1% of all vaccine injuries are reported, the $4 billion is just the tip of the iceberg.

Reply to  Matt
January 17, 2020 10:39 am

I saw one of the last smallpox epidemics in India when I was 16. I will never forget the 11-year old girl dying on a string bed in a dark little room in a mud hut. When the vaxinator came to the village, grandma had said, ‘Keep her back so she can look after her two little sibs when they get sick from the vaccination’. Also saw a kid I played with dead from cerebral measles in a little coffin made out of packing cases.

I do not talk to antivaccers. I am surprised at the correlation between being a bit skeptical about CO2 and CC and skepticism about proven public health measures. Tells me there are a lot of cranks who do not read the literature in the areas they pontificate in, and just read Wattsup because it is contrary to the mainstream media. Its a shame when you do not even have to have access to a University library – Google Scholar gives everyone a taste of real science.

A C Osborn
Reply to  FranBC
January 17, 2020 12:47 pm

I am also shocked.
I don’t know how old these antivaxers are but anyone over 70 remembers how bad things used to be.
Vaccinations practically eradicated the full blown illnesses and saved millions of lives.
Chicken Pox
Small Pox
The problem is that 3rd world countreis still has them and immigrants are bringing them back.

Reply to  A C Osborn
January 17, 2020 11:54 pm

You have just proven that you are a science-free person repeating mantras and you know nothing about vaccination.

Thank you.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  A C Osborn
January 20, 2020 3:54 am

I would rather talk to chemtrail full-retards than these anti vaccine cretins.
This has to be the not only the stupidest person I have encountered in years, but also one of biggest asswipes ever too.
How many people can one irresponsible antivaxxer kill with their mindless insanity?
Could be many if he manages to infect other uneducated fools with his jackass notions.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 20, 2020 8:46 am

Yeah, you really have to divide the exceedingly stupid into a) harmless and b) potentially harmful.

Chemtrailers, flat-earthers, “didn’t actually land on the mooners”, etc., are in Column A. Irritating, occasionally fun to eff with, but boring as hell and ultimately a waste of time.

I mean, unless I’m hiring your to captain my ship around the world, I don’t care if you think the earth is flat. If you’re a geography professor I might not want you fired for this belief…but I’d want to fire those who hired you.

But anti-vaxxers are a different breed. I’m not responding to either of the two trolls infesting this thread, as one does nothing but post links for typically badly written blogs put out by the usual suspects, and the other doesn’t even do that, just asserts its opinion that reflects a world only a few actually live in.

I mean, either of them could go to the Congo or Samoa and help those suffering there from the latest outbreaks, but somehow I doubt their “your daughter didn’t actually die of a disease” might not fly too well…

Reply to  A C Osborn
January 20, 2020 8:26 am

Who would be killed? Where? How?

You don’t know. You have nothing.

Polio was an ill defined syndrome, the kind of paralysis that exploded due to mass vaccination in India. And polio style paralysis still occurs in the US.

And the polio vaccine contributed to the spread of polio, something anything with a passable understanding of vaccines (not a brainwashed bigot like the vaxxers on this site) would know.

Measles was essentially a joke in the 60ties. Only victims of the MSM who love being brainwashed think otherwise.

You are an insulting crank insisting on fascistic policies, the kind of Adolf would have loved, with Adolf hygiene obsession.

You are rooting for the most crooked industry ever. You are fake skeptic. You are a bigot.

You are as consistent as Bart Sibrel, Bill Kaysing and the rest of the “NASA faked the Apollo missions” people. They are all over the place like vaxxers. They have an opinion and then they have the opposite opinion. They are lazy buffoons but not really out of the ordinary of the MSM and provax “conservative” sites in term of stupidity and inconsistency.

Vaxxers say “you can’t use that kind of argument, it’s unscientific” then use it, then repeat “you can’t use that kind of argument, it’s unscientific”. It’s the most common unlisted mental derangement. (At least TDS has a name, although it will be long before TDS enters the officially sanctioned list.)

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  A C Osborn
January 20, 2020 9:45 pm

Keep talking jackass.
Why be so candy-assed about what you think?
A real man would talk frankly about what he believes.

Reply to  A C Osborn
January 21, 2020 12:48 am

As usual, vaxxers speak from the gutter.

Absolute filth from the ignorant brainwashed crowd.

Disgusting and predictable.

January 17, 2020 1:09 am

All true except the climate deniers are in fact the likes of Extinction Rebellion

“Give us back our 11 days”

Old Woman of the North
January 17, 2020 1:13 am

I heard a good question the other day.

When people complain that things are bad – weather, climate, economy, life-style etc – the question is “Compared to what?’ Since poverty is down across the world, people live longer. etc etc. What are they complaining about?

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Old Woman of the North
January 17, 2020 9:43 am

Misery loves company. People want to think they’re special, that the times they live in are special.

Caligula Jones
Reply to  Jeff Alberts
January 17, 2020 10:16 am

Well, the questions I ask are:

1) what should the climate be?
2) what should the population be?
3) what era would you consider better

January 17, 2020 1:42 am

Then he won’t mind if I liken him to a dose of the crabs or gonorrhea.

January 17, 2020 1:44 am

The real scientific debate, conducted by real scientists (whether they carry the seal of “climate scientist” or not), needs to be brought into the public arena. The public need to listen to and read all opinions of climate science, freely and uncensored. This would destroy the catastrophe narrative in short order, which is why it will probably never happen.

Michael F
January 17, 2020 1:47 am

It’s great that Tony Burke keeps persuing the “climate change” issue. Of the last three elections, every party banging on about “climate change” has lost. Malcolm Turnbull has twice lost the leadership of the Liberal (that’s a right-wing party in Australia but not far right) party and Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd have both lost government on climate issues. A next election win for Scott Morrison if Tony Burke keeps up his current rethoric. Keep going Tony you’re doing a fine job

Reply to  Michael F
January 17, 2020 3:52 am

blathering bill nd now the albatross albanese did/are presently doing a great job of pandering to the vocal few while losing their majority of voters every time they keep the warmist guff going
self inflicted loss just like daft hillarious klingons

January 17, 2020 2:02 am

So, is denial a risk management protocol or a Choice for social progress? Perhaps clinical cannibalism for medical progress. Conflation of logical domains is, apparently, a politically congruent apology.

Robert B
January 17, 2020 2:05 am

Kind of as stupid as anti-vaccination numbers are the greatest by a long shot in hippie areas of the north coast of NSW. Even if it wasn’t, there is nothing more anti science than harassment by authority, using slander, if you don’t toe the line.

Reply to  Robert B
January 17, 2020 11:52 pm

No, actually the most anti flu vaccine crowd is the medical community. Doctors prescribe shots and avoid these. (They are absolutely evil.)

You have been manipulated by the enemies of the people and the CDC (but I repeat myself).

January 17, 2020 2:06 am

“The virulent climate rhetoric in Australia just stepped up a notch, with senior opposition MP Tony Burke comparing “climate deniers” to people who dispute the value of medical vaccines”

It doesn’t matter whether deniers are like anti vaxxers or not like anti vaxxers. The only issue here is whether their arguments against agw have merit.

Reply to  Chaamjamal
January 17, 2020 7:41 am

They do.

It’s the arguments for doing anything about CO2 that have been proven to be without merit.

January 17, 2020 2:54 am

We had the climate election last year and he lost .

January 17, 2020 3:05 am

Thanks for the great replies.
Since the recent Australian bushfires and the endless BS blaming it on climate change I have decided to ramp up personal efforts to fight this fake alarmism ( the are clearly so many more important issues in the world today).
I have never been Vaclav Havel’s greengrocer, I have always been Havel’s Brewer.
Havel tells the story about the old Brewer upset that the quality of beer is no good because of management practices. He continually complains to management.
Eventually he is demoted. All he wanted to do is make good beer. I suspect many WUWT readers are like Havel’s Brewer – they know something is wrong and need to speak up.
But getting sacked doesn’t help.
We and I specifically need to be more clever how I complain – “climate change is BS” is not good enough

Greg K
January 17, 2020 4:33 am

a right berk

January 17, 2020 4:59 am

It’s just the opposite, silly man! Climate alarmists tend to be anti-vaxxers based on fear and flawed science!

Loren Wilson
January 17, 2020 5:05 am

At least vaccines are shown to work. None of the prescribed remedies by the CAGW crowd pass that test.

Reply to  Loren Wilson
January 17, 2020 3:20 pm

Actually many vaccines were proved to be useless after years of use.

But you feel better by despising “antivaxxers” (which almost don’t exist) and repeating the vaxxer’s mantra. Vaxxer chief priests often have medical degrees and extreme negative knowledge of medical science.

January 17, 2020 5:22 am


January 17, 2020 5:25 am

Tony Burke is a typical low life Labor piece of Sh!t, a complete scumbag. I look forward to the day when filth like him will rot in prison.

Dan Clauser
January 17, 2020 5:26 am

Well, since it’s the FORMER-vaxxers (most every anti-vaxxer used to vax until one of their children was injured/killed) who are informed, I’m perfectly willing to take his observation as truth. Both climate deniers and anti-vaxxers understand that the commonly held, “accepted science” is bunk and the reality we live in does not support the rubbish put forth as fact.

Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 17, 2020 7:45 am

The problem with most anti-vaxxers is that they don’t understand science or statistics.

My kid was given a vaccine. Some time later my kid got sick. Therefore the vaccine made him sick.
CO2 levels rose. Temperature levels rose. Therefore CO2 caused the temperature rise.

If you can spot the common fallacy, you are doing better than your average anti-vaxxer.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 9:10 am

The sword cuts both ways

“My kid was given a vaccine. Some time later my kid got sick. Vaccines cannot make people sick. Therefore the vaccine did not make him sick.”

Dan Clauser
Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 10:53 am

You write as someone who hasn’t done a whole lot of research on the matter. How about, my kid was ahead on development, given a vaccine, that night went into encephalitic shock, screamed for four days, passed out, and when she woke up could no longer walk, say the 40+ words she used to know, and the doctors insist it has nothing to do with the jab she had 8 hours before. O, and encephalitis is one of the listed side effects of vaccines. And the VAERS system has paid out four billion dollars to the injured/killed children from vaccines in a system with 1/1000 reporting injuries.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 3:25 pm

Actually vaccines are known to cause many diseases.

The flu vaccine gives the “flu”.

The hep B vaccine causes all sorts of debilitating illnesses.

There are reasons to suspect the ROR vaccine causes “regressive autism”.

None of that is accepted or even possibly discussed by the vaxxer sect, the most powerful sect on Earth.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 3:29 pm

“If you can spot the common fallacy, you are doing better than your average anti-vaxxer.”

The fallacy is used by 99% of vaxxers to justify vaccines. Even on this very page. I don’t see you reacting to the fallacy which makes you an iso-leftist.

January 17, 2020 5:43 am

I’m up to date but I know a lot of young liberal people who quietly object.

January 17, 2020 6:35 am

The effectiveness of vaccines is verifiable without any models or statistics. It’s what we used to call “real” science. In the imaginary world of GMOs, organic foods, nutrition, climate, etc, there is no reality and statistical analysis (read “slant data to desired end”) is very wrongly considered proof of various realities, depending on what one wants to be true. Since living in unicorn land is the new norm, it’s not surprising a politician has zero understanding of hard science versus fictional science. Fantasyland, here we come.

Dan Clauser
Reply to  Sheri
January 17, 2020 10:55 am

How would you go about proving the effectiveness of vaccines? If you did it (scientifically) you’d be the first.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 17, 2020 1:38 pm

Got polio?

Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 17, 2020 3:09 pm

OK so you admit you have zero evidence of the benefit of any vaccine?

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  niceguy
January 17, 2020 11:05 pm

How can you argue that almost complete, and actual complete, eradication of several contagious diseases is not proof that vaccination works? The only alternative hypothesis could be that something else eradicated these diseases.

Am I missing some kind of clever humour in this?

Reply to  niceguy
January 17, 2020 11:47 pm

“proof that vaccination works?”

is an idiotic, unscientific phrase. It proves that you are antiscience.

Do you have any evidence that a vaccine is useful for some people somewhere?

Then post it.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  niceguy
January 20, 2020 4:02 am

There is ample proof you are a psychotic fool.
Why don’t you shut up and go away?
No one here want to talk to you.

Reply to  niceguy
January 20, 2020 9:25 am

Spoken like a troskist-adolfist.

You have nothing. I have humiliated you. You may hide under a rock.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  niceguy
January 20, 2020 9:55 pm

I demand to be knowing who informing you of my trotskist-adolfist obsession?
This is big time secret, no one is knowing.
How you have hacked my secret accounts and find this informations?
I demand at once you delete these comments and stop embarrassing me.
I demands you are not release any further confidential informations on my secret life.

Reply to  Dan Clauser
January 17, 2020 3:17 pm

In France, the measles vaccine is certainly effective in term of a dramatic reduction of measles cases. Of course that was never the goal. The reduction of serious measles cases is simply not measured. In fact the mass vaccination program just caused a dramatic rise of serious cases, and measles of babies that were almost never seen. It’s the archetypal “crazy scientist” experiment. And stupid people are complaining about the risks of “GMO” food!

Many vaccination programs are uncontrolled, dangerous experiments that dramatically wreck the ecology of viruses, but ecologists are nowhere to be seen about these issues.

Reply to  Sheri
January 17, 2020 3:34 pm

“The effectiveness of vaccines is verifiable without any models or statistics”

Absolute 100% pure BS.

January 17, 2020 6:57 am


“Burke led Labor’s knee-jerk rejection of affordable zero carbon nuclear power when it was briefly tabled as a possibility by Prime Minister Scott Morrison.”

Has contrary meanings.

In America, “Tabled” is when a proposal/idea is considered and then returned to the table; i.e. returned to the stack.
“In the United States, a bill is tabled when a legislative body adopts a motion to suspend consideration of a bill indefinitely.”
Anything “tabled” has to be reintroduced and accepted for discussion by a majority present to reach discussion level again. Which is why so many suggestions/proposals/ideas fade away once they are “tabled”

In the UK the meaning is somewhat different.
“table verb [ T ]
UK /ˈteɪ.bəl/ US /ˈteɪ.bəl/
to suggest something for discussion:

That doesn’t make one version accurate or the other version wrong; just that use of the word means completely opposite things to different people.

Reply to  ATheoK
January 17, 2020 10:41 am

Even married to an Australian for 29 years, I did not know that. Thanks.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  JonasM
January 17, 2020 7:42 pm

Every year, fewer and fewer Australian born Australians exist being replaced by migrants. Heck, even I am a migrant form New Zealand. Can I claim I am a “climate refugee” because Sydney is much nicer than Wellington (Meaning it is warmer)?

January 17, 2020 7:39 am

I knew this article would bring the anti-vaxx nutjobs out of the wood work.

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 8:58 am

Your arguments are so compelling. Similar tactic used by climate alarmists…

Reply to  MarkW
January 17, 2020 7:37 pm

Typical answer from a vaxxer that never could make any argument for any vaccine, ever.

You assume, like catastropho-warmistas. You repeat slogans you barely understand. You mention vague correlations that are largely made up and dismiss strong undeniable correlations of (MS, neurological diseases in general, allergies, diabetes, immunological problems in general, autism, etc.) with crazy vaccination schedule, and arguments from the CDC that even a child who find inane.

Why are babies vaccinated against an STD? Why are phonies enraged about gay marriage and silent about mandatory STD vaccination for babies? Because they are useless bigots.

Where are the so called, phony, no good “conservatives”? There is no conservative party anywhere to be seen. All conservative parties are actually pro big business pro pharma sell outs. (Only trumpism is authentic. And the GOP isn’t trumpist, it’s pro rich people.)

It isn’t possible to find pro vaccine argument convincing with a functional mind, period.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  niceguy
January 17, 2020 11:10 pm

Eradication of diseases is not a reasonable argument for the effectiveness of vaccines to you? I would argue that it is to all functioning minds.

Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 17, 2020 11:44 pm

What disease? What vaccine?

Can you make an argument for one vaccine, once in your life?

Patrick MJD
Reply to  niceguy
January 18, 2020 2:32 am

How about BCG, Polio, Rubella just the ones I can remember. Didn’t have much choice in the 1960’s and 1970’s and I am ok now.

Reply to  niceguy
January 18, 2020 4:33 am

Polio vaccination prevented spread of polio?

You have facts backward.

Polio vaccination was the driving force spreading polio.

How the hell could a polio vaccine eradicate polio? Magic?

Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 18, 2020 5:24 am

Zig, incidence of most, if not all, diseases had already plummeted before their vaccines were introduced.

Andy Pattullo
January 17, 2020 7:45 am

Generally I agree. People who deny there is a climate or that it changes are indeed ignoring the scientific evidence just as those who preach against use of vaccines deny the huge positive impact vaccines have on human health and longevity. I haven’t so far met or read the words of anyone claiming to deny either the existence of climate or that it changes.

As for the science, I tend to let my understanding be guided by that very same science. This is why I am quite comfortable that there is NO OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that:

1. The biosphere is undergoing dangerous, unprecedented warming/climate change/climate disruption or a climate emergency that exceed known natural variation in the long history of the planet.
2. CO2 emissions from human activity (roughly 5% of the CO2 entering the atmosphere annually) has magically become the single primary driver of surface or trophospheric temperatures, rather than the very modest influencer science predicts it to be.
3. Disrupting the energy foundation of our industrial society will bring anything other than massive human misery and the decimation of the natural environment when 7.7 billion people try to feed themselves, shelter themselves and survive once those foundations are gone.
4. Disrupting that foundation will have any significant impact on the temperature of the globe in the year 2100.

Reply to  Andy Pattullo
January 17, 2020 3:09 pm

The “successes” of vaccines are largely made up, like “polio” which changed name to make up imaginary benefits of the dangerous vaccine, a vaccine that probably had about as much victims as natural polio itself.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  niceguy
January 17, 2020 11:14 pm

Polio changed name? So there are plenty of people in the developed world crippled by a disease that used to be called Polio, but now has a different name?

Where are they? The people before the vaccine were very evident, and some still are.

BTW, did the disease change its own name? That’s what you seem to imply. It sounds as rational as your other arguments.

Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 17, 2020 11:43 pm

“So there are plenty of people in the developed world crippled by a disease that used to be called Polio, but now has a different name?”

There are, but not that much. Again, you have no argument for any vaccine. You just have arrogance and dismissal.

“The people before the vaccine were very evident, and some still are.”

Do you deny the explosion of polio syndromes in India following mass vaccination?

“That’s what you seem to imply. It sounds as rational as your other arguments.”

My arguments are perfect. You have nothing but your arrogance.

Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 18, 2020 5:30 am

“Polio changed name? So there are plenty of people in the developed world crippled by a disease that used to be called Polio, but now has a different name?”

Acute flaccid myelitis. Same symptoms, different name.

Joel Snider
January 17, 2020 7:51 am

The blind arrogance of these guys.

Bill Taylor
January 17, 2020 8:49 am

i challenge all people here to cite just ONE insulator that adds heat to any system? the point is no insulator does that and the greenhouse effect in no way ADDS heat to the earth.

Mark Broderick
Reply to  Bill Taylor
January 17, 2020 9:53 am

The idea is that the “insulator” slows heat energy from escaping the earth like a blanket slows heat energy from escaping The Human body (see Mosher )…BUT ! A blanket that only covers 4% of your body is pretty well useless ! : )

Reply to  Bill Taylor
January 17, 2020 11:33 am

Greenhouse effect does not add heat, it slows down the cooling rate, similar to the effect a winter coat has on a person. Earth’s temp is the rate of received energy minus the cooling rate.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  beng135
January 17, 2020 7:49 pm

The current alarmist view is that GHG’s, CH4, CO2 and WV etc, “AMPLIFY” warming/heating. You are correct in your post that they slow down the cooling rate.

January 17, 2020 10:55 am

Senior Aussie Politician: “Climate deniers are like anti-vaxxers”

Senior Aussie politicians are like Heaven’s Gate cultists. Back at ya.

David Blenkinsop
January 17, 2020 11:11 am

Maybe some of these Aussie politicians would benefit by taking a look at how this looks to any Canadians who happen to be paying attention at the moment,

Nicholas McGinley
January 17, 2020 11:59 am

In my experience, there are a few issues which cut across the usual political dividing lines that most people line up on one side or the other of.
And vaccines, GMO foods, and to a lesser extent global warming alarmism, are among them.
Add the “Roundup is a deadly conspiracy to kill us all with cancer” to the list.
We see it proved right here whenever one of these issues comes up.
Many people are able to sort out the facts from internet scare mongering BS, use a knowledge of history or medicine or agriculture to inform them.
Some are not.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 17, 2020 8:17 pm

Nothing could be further from the truth.

You just despise people who call the truth about vaccines. You are a mirror image of the warmunists.

January 17, 2020 12:20 pm

You will have to forgive Tony he is a bit “special” and the Labor Party’s professional whiner. You should see him go when he is in election mode. He hasnt noticed that vaccination is a measurable success and the climate change alarmism is a measurable failure getting pretty much everything wrong for the last 30 years or so.

Reply to  yarpos
January 17, 2020 3:06 pm

Which vaccination had “measurable success”?

Are you confused?

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  niceguy
January 17, 2020 11:19 pm

Polio, Smallpox, etc.

What is it about simple logic that is so hard to grasp?

You are an insult to the great medical researchers who have struggled to improve our lives with great success.

Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 17, 2020 11:40 pm

Just throwing around the name of an undefined disease is not an argument.

What improvement? Where? How?

You fail as usual, because you are informed and are repeating mantras.

January 17, 2020 12:31 pm

True-blue Conservatives might raise the tone of the GWPF by transporting convicted perpetrators of the “Wicked and self-destructive idiocy of climate denial ” to penal servitude in the coal mines of Australia.

No, wait a minute– isn’t that how Eric Worrall got there in the first place?

January 17, 2020 1:55 pm

If you don’t really have any policy ideas that work, then you blame the opposition. That is all that’s going on.

January 17, 2020 5:24 pm

The LNP ‘Science Minister’ is no better…equally ignorant.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Fred
January 17, 2020 7:34 pm

The current LNP science minister is about the most qualified minister that has held that portfolio in the last 10 – 15 years of various Govn’ts.

January 17, 2020 7:30 pm

The future effect of IA on science will be to replace biased “experts” and to measure objectively the amount of evidence that some vaccine is the source of increase of some illnesses (those that exploded together with the insane vaccine schedule, that is, the most debilitating and most expensive ones).

Imagine what will happen next. The remedies for the people alleging to be victims of vaccines will be in the order of trillions of dollars. Because vaxxism was official states policies, it will be a state debt, probably doubling the debt of some countries. What will happen for the other owners of debt? What debt will be prioritized?

Common sense says that indemnification has priority. What will happen to banks?

It could be a financial meltdown. Of course any Pharma that produced vaccine will be bankrupted and so will be any entity that colluded with them, that is, all of the MSM, all major Internet/Web corps, etc.

That’s the next Revolution.

Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  niceguy
January 17, 2020 11:20 pm

Get help

Reply to  Zig Zag Wanderer
January 17, 2020 11:38 pm

No refutation.
No counter argument.
No nothing.
The usual insulting answer from the brainwashed people.

Nicholas McGinley
Reply to  niceguy
January 20, 2020 4:05 am

You complain about being insulted?
Add total lack of self awareness to your list of mental conditions.

Reply to  Nicholas McGinley
January 20, 2020 9:23 am

So, where are your arguments?

So far you have provided none. You support the most fascistic policies in the West and most corrupt industry. That makes you a… (fill in the blanks).

John Endicott
Reply to  niceguy
January 20, 2020 5:53 am

The usual insulting answer from the brainwashed people.

…and the award for most self-unaware hypocrite goes to the misnamed “niceguy”.

January 18, 2020 6:32 pm

Don’t get too far out there Tony and listen to your boss as he knows if you shoot your mouth off about targets and the unlimited sacrifices everybody has to make you’re committing political suicide-

Just pay ‘climate change’ and aspirational targets lip service like mandatory world peace and fluffy kittens and dole out some free LED lights and water saving shower heads or rooftop solar subsidies but whatever you do don’t start talking about carbon taxes and hiking costs onto the punters because that’s not what virtue signalling and feelgood is all about stoopid. It’s what we do Tony until everyone gets bored with the whole meme and the climate racketeers and move on to the next big thing.

Trust me by next winter if rains return to normal presaged by the flooding at present the bushfires will be yesterdays news like the NZ volcano although clearly not so for those intimately affected. Oh and it will only take a few years with the fire grounds recovered for plenty to forget the nature lesson and buy and build among the trees again as these things always happen to others and not ourselves. It’s the way we’re wired or we wouldn’t get out of bed with all the possible dooming.

Itz Me
January 19, 2020 5:14 am

One of the worst politicians we have in this country is Tony Bourke who single handedly nearly destroyed the beef industry in Australia in the Gillard era by banning our live trade export to Indonesia. This guy is a real grub.

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