Guest essay by Eric Worrall
Green plan to make natural gas from US fracking operations really expensive and dangerous.
Reenvisioning The Role For Natural Gas In A Clean Energy Future
Clean” gas, or hydrogen sourced from natural gas, represents an alternative that has been receiving increased attention.
If the process of converting natural gas into hydrogen is combined with CO2 capture and storage, the bulk of the associated emissions can be avoided.
By Dolf Gielen, Morgan D. Bazilian, and Kenneth B. Medlock III
To meet climate goals, enormous changes to the world’s energy systems are required. The impacts will no doubt be significant for fossil fuels ranging from coal, to oil, to natural gas. With regard to natural gas, various regional and national pipeline systems represent important and large infrastructures with long life spans. Additionally, natural gas resources—proven, probable, and possible—represent an enormous asset. So, strategies that avoid stranded costs along the natural gas value chain while being aligned to climate objectives are attractive. “Clean” gas, or hydrogen sourced from natural gas, represents an alternative that has been receiving increased attention.
…
If the process of converting natural gas into hydrogen is combined with CO2 capture and storage, the bulk of the associated emissions can be avoided. Still, worldwide just three plants for hydrogen production are employing CCS (Air products, Quest, and ACTL Sturgeon). One plant has dedicated storage while the others use the CO2for enhanced oil recovery, but quantities are modest, each at around 1 Mt per year.
…
How much energy do you discard if you convert methane to hydrogen?
According to World Nuclear Association:
| Hydrogen | 120-142 MJ/kg |
| Methane (CH4) | 50-55 MJ/kg |
HOWEVER the molecular weight of methane is carbon (12) + Hydrogen (1) x 4 = 16.
The molecular weight of Hydrogen (H2) = 2
If you start with 1kg of methane and discard the carbon (12 of 16, 3/4 of the mass of the methane molecule), you only end up with a quarter of a kilo of hydrogen.
So even assuming a perfect zero cost conversion, 1kg of Methane (50 MJ) gets converted to 0.25Kg of Hydrogen (30MJ) – an immediate loss 2/5 of the original energy.
When you add the cost of building and maintaining the conversion plant, you have at least doubled the cost of gas.
Add to this the difficulties of handling hydrogen – hydrogen leaks prolifically (small H2 molecules find every crack), it can burn in air with a flame so hot it radiates ultraviolet (like a welding torch), and it ignites, often explosively, at a very wide range of hydrogen concentrations in air; in my opinion a hydrogen economy would be an economy which kills people.
The following is a video of some explosive hydrogen experiments performed by the University of Nottingham.
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I really DO want my stove to turn into the Hindenburg when I’m trying to cook.
Seriously, when is the Good Idea Fairy planning to stop visiting these people?
The GIF…priceless.
When they have total control and the green politburo can decide your energy future for you (and themselves).
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/04/08/this-new-battery-is-a-game-changer/#comment-1752281
Meanderings about electric cars, and grid-scale storage to mitigate the intermittency of renewable energy:
Remember all the hype circa 2000 about automobiles powered by hydrogen fuel cells? I dismissed that notion in an article written in 2002, because hydrogen is a very low-energy-density, hard-to-store fuel that does not exist in nature and must be manufactured from a primary energy source. I claim success on that prediction, because hydrogen fuel-cell autos have not come to the mass market. [Bing#1]
I also wrote in 2002 that battery-powered electric cars would find a place in the market, and now there are several models in mass production. [Bing#2]
I expect future improvements in batteries and fuel cells that will improve the performance of electric cars – recognizing that the majority of car travel is short urban commutes, not long-distance driving.
I do not believe that dedicated battery technology will soon solve the huge problem of intermittency of grid-connected wind or solar power at the grid level – there may be battery solutions at the household level, but they will tend to be expensive and short-lived, especially when compared with a simple fossil-fueled standby generator.
Many years ago I suggested that when electric cars become commonplace, a distributed “super-battery” for the electric grid could be utilized consisting of many electric cars, plugged in when not in use – in effect the super-battery company would “rent” your car battery when your electric car is parked and return it to you charged at a programmed time of your choosing. The virtue of this approach is that the super-battery is already paid-for by the car owners, and the super-battery use is secondary.
It will take a remarkable improvement in battery technology before a dedicated grid-scale super-battery is an affordable and effective solution for the intermittency of wind or solar power.
Best to all, Allan
I’m starting to think that this prediction thing is easy – all you need is a good engineering education and a good night’s sleep. I’ve got two good engineering degrees, but don’t sleep all that well. 🙂
Article in Friday’s paper about “new” cars and trucks included a hydrogen cell-fueled Big Rig (tractor for 31T gross load trailers) Kenworth manufactured by Toyota. It is part of a project with an $82 million grant from the California Air Resources Board, meant to put fuel-cell tractors, hydrogen fueling infrastructure and zero-emissions cargo-handling equipment into operation at the Port of Los Angeles.
So far, Kenworth and Toyota are planning to build 10 zero-emissions Kenworth T680 tractors with this system installed in them.
Sounds similar to the AU$90 million grant given to Toyota in about 2008-ish by Kevin Rudd to make an Australian made hybrid car. Toyota never made it but posted a profit that year of about AU$90 million.
Hi Sara,
Your hydrogen big rigs are being built as “part of a project with an $82 million grant from the California Air Resources Board”. Say no more… …$82 million!
Hydrogen buses were built for the Vancouver Olympics – they have now been retired. Wonder Why? I understand the Hydrogen was transported from Quebec. How grossly inefficient! Looks like more Green virtue signalling.
Allan, I can think of a few minor glitches in the plan to use idle electric car’s batteries as grid storage.
One being the additional charge/discharge cycling imposed upon car owners. This is not without reduced lifecycle/performance costs. Another would be the readiness state of any vehicle when the owner intends to use it.
Now if these were public vehicles such as buses, trams, trolleys, etc. then there would be so good merit to using idle assets.
I suppose my concerns are more on the economic utility and mis-application of ‘common goods’ which are private.
Notwithstanding energy losses upon each conversion step.
Apparently company called Fermata Energy is trying to launch the concept of using electric car batteries as a super-battery. I agree that there are technical and efficiency challenges.
Also, where is all that additional electricity going to come from and who is going to pay for the capital for generation, transmission and distribution?
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/14/fall-leaf-sales-fall-nissan-leaf-sales-collapse-in-ontario-after-incentive-axed/#comment-2590153
re: https://www.fermataenergy.com/
When did this idea originate? I wrote about it in 2009 but do not know when it started or if I originated it.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/10/polar-sea-ice-changes-are-having-a-net-cooling-effect-on-the-climate/#comment-63388
[excerpt]
Storage of electricity is much easier said than done.
One interesting idea for electricity storage is a “super battery”, consisting of many plugged-in electric cars. This should be possible in a decade or two.
Wind power is supposed to work well in conjunction with (excess) hydro power, but I have not seen this clearly demonstrated.
I have studied this subject and in conclusion I am yet not a fan of wind power.
Regards, Allan
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/14/fall-leaf-sales-fall-nissan-leaf-sales-collapse-in-ontario-after-incentive-axed/#comment-2589691
Under current conditions, EV’s will work as long as there are relatively few of them, and huge government subsidies are in place to cushion the high purchase price.
However, I suggest that few places in the world have an electric grid that can sustain many more EV’s. Where is all this new electricity going to come from? How many more power plants will be needed? Will power transmission systems (high voltage) and local distribution systems (low voltage) need to be increased, or even completely rebuilt? I think the answer is yes.
Most people think that electricity comes from a plug in the wall – it’s actually more complicated than that. There are generation, transmission, and distribution systems before the power gets to your house.
Politicians and green activists cannot just wave their magic wands and create energy out of thin air – that only happens in their overheated imaginations.
“Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.”
Alan Macrae- good thinking there. We are at least two orders of magnitude off the pace in using batteries for grid-scale storage but Vehicle to Grid (2G) storage has a role to play in stabilising the grid if the powers that be continue to insist on these silly windmills.
More cheaply, it would be helpful (and already technically possible with most charging protocols without modification of cars) to dial EV chargers up and down remotely to help stabilise the grid without going full V2G. There would be a lot to accomplish at the customer-contract level, but it could be done as most cars spend most of their time parked and on average in the UK only do 24 miles a day.
Really? Trying to store hydrogen is a bitch, to put it mildly. Aside from the embrittlement issues and leaks, it is just not dense enough to be really practical.
I have worked with Hydrogen from cryogenic to 600 oC and pressures from atmospheric to 35 bar, never experienced problems
http://slideplayer.com/slide/9407665/28/images/37/HYDROGEN+CYLINDER+BURSTS+INTERGRANULAR+CRACK.jpg
Look up Hydrogen Embrittlement of metals
And what does it cost to refrigerate and pressurize H2? A lot. Poof – another negative energy solution.
You are likely in laboratory or controlled industrial situation. Put hydrogen
In houses for heat and fuel for cars and the result will be many problems. Industrial sites with high pressure hydrogen have to do a lot of awareness training for their employees and still eventually end up with someone getting “blowtorched” from a invisible blue flame ignited by static.
Usually it’s Class 1 Division II Group B & C, as I recall.
It was industrial application, the first time a coke oven plant, the second time was a fertilizer plant to produce ammonia. The third time a petrochemical plant, several applications. I made a design for a cleanup unit to produce 99% H2. More interesting was the design (modifications/debottlenecking) for a hydrodealkylation plant. The hydrogen used in the fertilizer plant came partially from a cokeoven plant and was originally used for household warming and cooking until it was replaced by natural gas. The fertilizer plant had a coal gasification unit and was later replaced by an oil gasification. This all I did 30 to 60 years ago, it should nowadays with all the modern tools available a much easier job.
Under what conditions?
Remember these systems have to work in the real world, without maintenance for decades at a time.
I expect a tank of liquid hydrogen will have a pressure well in excess of 35 bar once it warms to room temperature unless vented to the air.
I expect an alloy scuba tank rated at 200 bar / 3000 psi is going to explode if filled with liquid hydrogen and allowed to come up to room temperature.
Wow, a refrigeration system in your car big enough to keep a tank filled with hydrogen stable. Where would ya put the kids and dog? The more I read about all these “green” innovations the more I want gasoline.
I worked as a firefighter and leader on a Hazmat team for many years. As JJM mentions, hydrogen is not particularly dangerous to work with or around. Although it has a wide flammability range it dissipates very quickly because it is 14 times lighter than air at room temperature. Even when the Hindenburg exploded the people who were burned, were mostly burned by debris not radiant heat from the hydrogen fireball which quickly rose into the sky.
The problem here is the amount of energy that is needlessly wasted converting natural gas to hydrogen which makes absolutely no sense in most applications.
JJM Gommers, you are among the rare and very lucky.
Now take those tanks and dewars and put them in a vehicle, expecting them to 1) hold securely for a week or three without leaking, 2) handle routine vehicle vibration and shock, 3) handle crashes and accidents.
Personally, I’m not too keen about driving around with a cryogenic tank in the summertime.
My Dad used to do exactly that.
He was a well trained specialist in cryogenics, particularly handling liquid helium.
(Ex Rutherford Lab, where they had both hydrogen bubble chambers and liquid helium super cooled magnets and targets).
For a while it was more economic to fetch liquid helium in dewars from London than make them in the rather old lab machine.
The car that carried all this stuff had to go quite a few miles, and also carried dewars of liquid nitrogen.
It was real fun and games to get the stuff to transfer from one container to another, taking many happy hours.
It was kind of de-rigeur never to have a serious crash in the van, because the remains of the driver would have been removed as a pile of frozen bones if the worst of the worst scenario happened.
Back in Rutherford they had “frangible walls” around the bubble chamber just in case, because the result of a monster explosion would not have been contained.
The over-pressure if solid walls were in place (would kill people) was the theory, which luckily was never tested.
The idea we should be handling a high pressure (liquified?) gas which explodes from anything between 4% and 98% strikes me as one of the most monumentally stupid ideas proposed in a long time.
Hey what do I know, why not use deuterium too?
That must be greener, cos it’s extracted from sea water.
Scroll down this page to the 52L, 700 bar hydrogen tank:
http://www.mahytec.com/en/products/compressed-hydrogen-storage/
Then think about that tank. With a full load of hydrogen, it weighs less than 50 kg. And it has ~132 kWh of energy – twice a normal Tesla model 3. Tiny, high energy density, not heavy – which makes it easier to restrain/secure (weight is your enemy here).
50 kg for a short range car’s fuel tank, compared to a normal petrol car’s fuel tank (with fuel) that would weigh less than that and travel at least three times the range?
JIM Gommers, in your opinion, can hydrogen be dummy proofed as have gasoline and methane?
Paul, Dave, In terms of practical ‘dummy proofing’, yes, Hydrogen fueled cars have been proven by the ‘Hydrogen Highway’ demonstrator in Norway. In that case H2 was reformed from natural gas, sourced as an industrial byproduct (from chlorine production) or on-site electrolysis at a hand full of service stations (one in Stavanger, a couple in Oslo and about three for refill en-route).
As Eric mentioned in the article, leak proofing was a principal concern, particulary when refueling but this was overcome by using suitable elastomer seals. There were three make/models involved that I recall seeing on the road; the Toyota Pious, a Mercedes (F-class if I recall, a fuel cell derivative of the B class compact) and the Mazda RX8. What was telling was the rated power of the RX8 (whose wankel engine needed minimal modification to suit H2 fuel) was cut by about a third and that all three were so expensive to buy and service that participants were only able to lease the cars for their corporate fleet’s virtue signalling.
The main objection to H2 is the insane waste of energy (and in addition to doubling gas demand to meet a given energy requirement as noted in the article, parasitic carbon capture adds about 15-20% to the energy cost of a host industrial process).
As I mentioned in a post to another WUWT article, the reason H2 is starting to get attention now is that it’s seen by the sort of evil big oil who feel greenwashing is good for business as being a way of perpetuating their gas businesses beyond it’s tenure as a ‘bridging fuel’ (that is once the green blob is done eviscerating coal, has oil under seige and is starting to aim at gas). More over, most of them have followed the green gold rush and are thus in the business of subsidy mining by way of unreliables like wind, Hydrogen is seen as a direct competitor and has been kept low key until now.
Watch for H2 to make its explosive debut on something large scale rather than more expensive corporate fleet cars, e.g.an application that’s far too big for anyone with a working brain to imagine that batteries are up to the job; ships, trucks or reticulated town gas.
And surprisingly, there is more hydrogen in a litre of gasoline or diesel than there is in a liter of liquid hydrogen.
The advantage of hydrogen is weight, which justifies its use in spacecraft. When GM releases a Chevy that can actually drive to the moon and back, the flex fuel sticker may well include hydrogen.
Hydrogen is not used in spacecraft because of the low weight. That’s actually a disadvantage. When the Apollo missions launched, the Saturn-5 rocket engines were fueled by methane because it has a much higher energy density. Later rockets (such as the now defunct Space Shuttle) used hydrogen because it has a much higher burning temperature to increase the exhaust speed.
Hivemind, you are incorrect on several accounts:
1) Saturn V first stage rocket engines (five F-1s) used RP-1, a refined kerosene, but the second stage rocket engines (five J-2s) and the third stage (one J-2) used liquid hydrogen. Methane was never used on any rocket, including attitude control rockets, on any Saturn V launch vehicle stage. (Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V )
2) Achieving higher flame temperature is not the primary reason hydrogen is sometimes used as a rocket fuel . . . instead, it is because it very effectively lowers the average molecular weight of the combustion exhaust gases. Specific impulse (basically, how many seconds in duration one pound of combined propellant mass can produce one pound of thrust force) is the key measure of propellant use efficiency for rocket engines. Specific impulse varies as (absolute combustion temperature/combustion gas molecular weight)^0.5. And the molecular weight difference between hydrogen and RP-1 combustion gases, both burned with pure oxygen, far overwhelms any possible difference in absolute temperatures of the associated combustion gas, on percentage bases.
Interestingly, at optimum oxidizer-to-fuel mass flowrate ratios (O/F) giving highest deliverable specific impulse, LOX/LH2 at O/F=6.0 delivers about 450 sec vacuum specific impulse* at a combustion gas temperature of about 3000 K, whereas LOX/RP-1 at O/F = 2.56 delivers only about Isp 350 seconds vacuum specific impulse*, despite it having a combustion gas temperature of about 3700 K (700 K hotter than the LOX/LH2 design point!).
*Note: rocket nozzle expansion ratios assumed to be equal at about 40:1.
The biggest problem to converting nat gas to hydrogen is, why bother? You create several levels of difficulty that way when all you have to do is combust the nat gas directly, and you get all the energy you want. Capture the emissions if you’re really scared about CO2. (which I am not)
Compared to a battery, hydrogen is a black hole! Per kg, hydrogen has around 142 MJ of energy, and a LiPo battery is around 1.8 MJ – about 1.2% of the hydrogen gas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energy_densities_of_common_energy_storage_materials
Hydrogen gas also enables pretty quick refills, and the energy per volume is also very much in favor of compressed hydrogen gas.
I think using hydrogen IS a bad move – but it’s better than batteries, especially for cars (where weight is the big driver of road damage, damage going as the 4th power of weight).
Who’da thunk it? Scientists haven’t completely worked out what’s happening in a simple hydrogen balloon explosion. But the tremendously complex questions of earth weather and climate are understood well enough to know with certainty the average temperature of earth in the year 2100. Give me a fricken break.
That’s different, Mike. Three are two kinds of ‘settled science’. One kind involves countless experiments and observations that support the scientific explanation every single time, without exception. The other kind of settled science is ‘proclamation from authority’. The former is tedious, difficult and has almost no political value. The ladder is quick, easy and worth a fortune in money, power and prestige.
Therefore, is it a scam to proclaim that climate science is settled science? Absolutely! The proclamation is a lie. The motivation for lying is to manipulate people to get something from them or to protect yourself from them. Both apply in the case of the ‘climate-science-is-settled’ lie. The liars seek to get power and money from the masses, while simultaneously protecting themselves from public ridicule and career suicide.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!”
The kind based on experiments can still be “unsettled” at any time when a new experiment finds something unexpected.
Certainly! There is no such thing as ‘settled science’ when we get right down to it. Still, decisions have to be made. Science tested by a myriad of experiments and observations will enhance good decision making much, much better than science that is proclaimed by authority. Using Newton’s laws of motion to land a ship on the moon is a reliable decision because the laws have been born out through uncounted experiments and observations. Sacrificing the global economy and the modern standard of living on the untested and unobserved ‘proclaimed’ catastrophic climate change theory would be a insane.
There is always a nefarious motive behind proclaimed science.
It is not different.
The goofball professor above followed exactly the same steps that climate science follows.
He was happy blowing up balloons, and to defend his fun, he invented assumptions.
Assumptions that almost any kid who popped or had their balloons popped could have corrected.
The first reaction of a balloon in reaction to damage caused by a pin, thorn, nail, knife, cigarette, scissors, match or burning tissue is the rubber ruptures with the rupture continuing depending on stress. A rip continues until the rubber returns to relaxed flaccid state.
This happens whether the balloon holds air, water, oil, acetylene, oxygen or hydrogen.
One can also observe rip propagation if one cuts rubber balloons into strips and then stretches the rubber to translucent thinness. Simple cuts, pin pricks, burns, etc.
Meaning that ripping rubber pulls away from the rupture site, quickly.
The burn/explosion process comes down to how fast a substance burns or explodes. Most substances burn, not explode.
Substances that must first mix with reactants, burn at a rate governed by the mixing rate.
No real research.
No research or testing designs.
Gross assumptions and conclusions.
One does get curious just how long this entertainment continued?
Where the professor differs, is he is willing to listen to constructive criticisms.
@ATheoK
Have another look at the “electric light bulb” effect at 3:58
The Nottingham Uni experiment is nothing new, apart from the high-speed camera bit. My chemistry teacher “Bim” Wright did exactly the same demonstration back in about 1959? 1960?
Bim had a particular interest in the properties of hydrogen mixtures, because he had witnessed the shooting down of the Schütte-Lanz SL 11 over London in 1916. Bim and his mates had pedalled their bikes to Cuffley to see what was left of it.
Green dreams and energy schemes are all based on the huge lie that “CO2 is bad”, and all, if implemented, would have disasterous consequences on economies, making energy costs skyrocket and disrupting electric grids. Converting NG to H2, and employing stupid, and costly CCS technology is just more insanity on the part of delusional Greentards.
Bruce, yes but not green dreams if implemented would, but as implemented have. The world economy has wasted at least a $trillion on wind, solar and bio-fuels, and surely at least another $trillion will be wasted before this insanity ends.
Pay me a few million dollars and I think that even I could come up with some ideas that wouldn’t work.
Not only does hydrogen leak through every invisible crack and microscopic hole, it also diffuses through intact materials with no defects.IN addition, have any of the geniuses promoting the use of H2 as fuel given any thought to the production of the powerful greenhouse gas H2O as the product of hydrogen combustion? The idea should be DOA, but the forces of hatred of the coal/oil/gas industry will prevail in the media and public mind, I fear.
And, the conversion will not be 0-cost.
The 2nd law of Thermodynamics: TANSTAFL
Wait a second, if CO2’s effect is supposed to be massively amplified by the much stronger “greenhouse” gas water vapor, how does that make burning lots of hydrogen a “green” idea?
Because it’s not carbon. The only thing greenies know is carbon=bad. Whatever else happens on the planet they have no idea and don’t care.
Willis E. wrote a very informative article on hydrogen as a “fuel” right here on WUWT. Worth revisiting as more and more unhinged green schemes come flying out of the belfry.
This is almost a bad as importing wood chips across the Atlantic Ocean.
To be burnt in a converted coal burning power station.
That is Built on top of a coal field.
Yes you have really have got to give that some thought.
And if I could fly, I wouldn’t need to use any fossil fuels at all.
Ferrybridge in Yorkshire is the power station. It counts as “renewable”, so all good.
and drax
Every idea these folks come up with reminds me of why it’s not a good idea to play chess with pigeons. They only know how to find fault with refined, workable, albeit imperfect, systems and make a mess of everything while claiming moral victory.
Eureka!
I have discovered it.
My new idea will surely be covered in the next EurekAlerts!
The Hindenburg was doomed because it was filled with a flammable gas.
All you need to do is fill an airship with a non-flammable gas. And what is the best one we could use, you ask. Simple, Carbon Dioxide!
If you really want to go all hi-tech, you can use argon, neon, xenon and others.
{Before anybody jumps on my brilliant idea, consider the quality of all the other EurekAlerts! bright ideas we have been subjected to recently.}
All aboard the CO2 balloon for those attending the next UN Climate Change Conference of Parties. Would passengers please retain their tickets for carbon credit purposes.
You want some fun, try this (originally it was a thought experiment in the basic physics course in college I tutored and graded papers for – physics for people too stupid to realize they should be taking biology for their basic science required course).
Imagine a sphere, like a balloon, but it’s extremely thin, infinitely rigid, so unlike a balloon it won’t deflate if it’s empty, and it’s so light it’s almost weightless. Which will float better in the air, if you fill it with helium, or make it a total vacuum inside.
The answers and the “reasoning” behind them were comical, and illustrated the complete incapability of most people to do anything resembling abstract thought. Always, without fail, they answered the helium filled one would float better, and even if you explained till you were blue in the face, they never really got it or believed you.
A vacuum ways nothing, and nothing weighs less than nothing.
Ask the same idiots why balloons don’t float into outer space.
BTW nothing ‘floats’ in outer space. There is no buoyancy in ‘nothing’. There is no ‘up’.
However no object is stationary either.
Aerogel, aerographite or aerographene inside the rigid balloon, the balloon evacuated to a high vacuum.
Aerogel’s dendritic microstructure is strong enough to withstand the vacuum, and aerogel is nearly as light as air (it is, in fact, so porous that it is 99.8% air), so pulling a vacuum should give buoyancy. The balloon can then be made of regular balloon material, rather than some hypothetical rigid-yet-ultralight material.
Aerographite and aerographene are even lighter than aerogel, but can’t be produced in large quantities. They have even less density than helium.
It’s time to return to the time of the zeppelins and do away with all airplanes. It’s for The Good Of The Planet ™. Who doesn’t want to cross the Atlantic at 85 MPH, after all? /sarc
“It’s time to return to the time of the zeppelins”
Haven’t you heard of the “Flying Bum*”?
https://www.thisisinsider.com/airlander-flying-bum-could-take-to-the-skies-in-2020-2019-1
*Bum being the British equivalent of the American word “Butt”…
I’ll see that and raise you one Skywhale-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCpD5BUreW8
The taxeaters in Canberra actually paid stupid money for that thing to frighten children and celebrate a bloated public sector presumably.
North Eastern Gas Networks in the UK are promoting a £23 billion scheme to pump pure hydrogen into 3.8 million homes which contain 15% of the poorest people in the UK. Right now they are ripping out all of the old metal pipes and replacing those with new plastic pipe. If they get approval for the scheme they will then rip out all of the new plastic pipe and replace it with high tensile steel piping able to withstand metal fatigue caused by hydrogen. I think it is all a plot designed to euthanize humans to stop climate change. Fit deliberately faulty appliances and bang Co2 mitigated. Cost is never an issue when it comes to saving the planet. £8.6 billion a year in turbine subsidies having spent £400 billion already. Global Co2 mitigated 0.0000037586%. Lord Deben says 7% of all UK emissions come from livestock farming so the cows have to die. Methane mitigated 2 millionths of global annual emissions. Nonsense.
Prior to 1970 they pumped hydrogen into all those houses without any problem and millions of people cooked and heated with it. There were no problems with the pipes until they started using natural gas, when they did that they encountered leakages and explosions and so undertook a nationwide pipe replacement program.
I think you are mistaken. Towngas (a mixture of H2, CO and CH4) produced from coal was indeed used earlier before switching to safer natural gas. The problem was not flammability, but rather the toxicity of CO.
Town gas to natural … correct. The problem with natural gas was the absence of smell, so you wouldn’t notice a leak until you struck a match. So a bit of stink was added.
The explosion hazard associated with natural gas was due to leakage from the old pipelines which had no such problems with town gas. Led to a nationwide replacement of the pipeline system. Similar problems with natural gas explosions are being encountered in Massachusetts. Hydrogen when it leaks diffuses very rapidly so that it is too lean a mixture to ignite methane diffuses much more slowly and tends to stay as a flammable mixture for much longer.
Prior to the expanded availability of natural gas natural gas as the result of pipeline expansion, manfactured “coal gas” was in common use for lighting and cooking in high density metro areas. While manufactued gas did contain hydrogen, most heating value came from methane, not to mention that before the introduction of the incandescent mantel, you wouldn’t get much light from a hydrogen “flame.”
Big drawback of manufactured gas was the carbon monoxide. Methane kills by displacing air while CO is toxic in its own right.
In other words, I wonder where in the world “they pumped hydrogen into all those homes?”
What I do remember is folks being happy to switch from #2 fuel oil to natural gas for home heating in the 1950s when new supplies became available in a nearby suburban area . . . even though it meant tearing up their streets and yards to put in the pipes.
“Lord Deben says 7% of all UK emissions come from livestock farming so the cows have to die”
Ah, the great Lord Deben:
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2019/02/03/gummer-in-600k-conflict-of-interest-claim/
Fuel cells convert as needed, you would not store H in mass quantities. The kargest souce of H is from crackinng oil so not sure you can hace a H economy without fossil fuels.
I really like the scientist in the video. He says “it is always good for a scientist to be proved wrong.” We need more people like him, not just scientists
“We need more people like him, not just scientists”
Indeed we do – but he wouldn’t last long in the Climate Science field with opinions like that. Clearly one of the 3%…
All this nonsense is being proposed because they (liberal elites) don’t want a methane based economy, which is entirely achievable in our generation. A methane based economy is one where heating, transportation and utilities are all run primarily on methane (and propane a byproduct). That means no room for graft and rent seeking by the elites who fund political campaigns to manipulate politicians. It’s all about power, its not about saving anything other that their grip on power.
IF they were truly interested in a “carbon free” energy, then they would be advocating nuclear power. They are not, energy efficiency, pollution is all a ruse for the self serving elites who enrich themselves on the backs of the taxpayers. And unfortunately, our enemies are also benefited by these schemes.
But here’s the dirty secret…the West has been under attack via disinformation campaigns since the days of the Soviet Union. The point of all of these various campaigns, e.g. fracking, nuclear power, fuel switching, is to hold back the continual advance of technology and standard of living in the West which leaves the real dictators and their captive populations further and further behind. Hobbling the fuel switching to methane by promoting hydrogen holds back the West and gives dictators like Putin and Xi time to continue being in power. Their hold on power only exists in the vacuum of their captive population’s understanding of how far behind they are which is a lesson of East Germany and Eastern Europe. Time can only be on their side IF the West stays stagnant or collapses under the weight of their own decadence.
Hydrogen is hard to store. Ammonia is easier to store. People are saying that ammonia could be the fuel of the future for the transportation industry.
For some reason, deep sea ships seem to be an attractive application for ammonia fuel. Here’s an article describing work on fueling large marine engines with ammonia.
When I first saw stories about ammonia fuel for marine applications, it was easy to dismiss them as somebody’s pipe dream. There is a steady drum beat of such stories and a variety of companies and institutions working on the problem. I’m beginning to think they’re serious.
As someone who responded to many ammonia leaks during my Hazmat career… I am not very fond of the idea of ammonia gas being used in anything but large scale refrigeration units. Even the leaks from them which is what we most often responded to could be very unpleasant and disruptive.
If you google on ammonia disaster, you get lots of hits.
Anhydrous ammonia is some nasty stuff. I am an industrial refrigeration tech and I know what I am talking about. Using it for fuel is insane. The liquid is deadly and so are the fumes. If you get even a small amount on you you must immediately flush the area with copious amounts of water. This would be a tough thing to do in a truck. And a wreck with a spill would be a disaster.
As I recall. those uses of hydrogen as a fuel always involved conversion at or near the source and then creating electricity, which was sent to the end user. Hydrogen was never envisioned as a substitute for natural gas.
This is a relatively straightforward flowsheet that could be modeled using a good process simulator. These programs actually are reliable since the chemical and energy industries actually spend their own money to build the process after engineering it. The reactions are well-known – this being one of the two most common ways of making hydrogen. The other starts with coal. I would love to see the economics of the process once it is properly simulated with the scrubbing system and CO2 pipeline and re-injection. As you lose 40% of the energy immediately, without considering the efficiency of the conversion process, and then add on the energy required to operate the CCS system, it’s likely to be a net consumer of energy, rather than producing energy. For comparison, a modern natural-gas powered furnace is about 90% efficient, so much more efficient than this idiocy.
The scientist in the video said it was good to be proven wrong; I wonder if climate “scientists” are paying attention? His statement was at about 2:20 in the video.
The cost of infrastructure change is probably staggering. What will they add to the hydrogen to let your nose detect a leak? H2S maybe.
No, for fuel cell applications, H2S is very damaging. Probably sensors can be used instead of odorants, which are used in natural gas, and LPGs.
T’was sarcasm t’was
There is just no getting around the fact that combustion is essential to life. And combustive fuels are essential to industial, AKA civilized, life. Whatever the green ideologues chose to believe.
Now, in the future, we may get nuclear fusion going and there is nuclear fission, but of coure the ideologues are opposed t that too.
And before my statement about combustive fuels is disputed, it was the harnessing of fire by ancient man that enabled us to make better use of food and grow a brain. Life was tough surviving on roots and carrion.
“To meet climate goals, enormous changes to the world’s energy systems are required.”
Translation: “We’re here to make you poor, miserable and dead because we believe failed computer models. Are you in?”
Translation: We k now what’s good for you and the planet. You will be serfs to serve your transnational master class.
The flame of hydrogen burning in air is not especially hot as far as gas flames go and does not produce any hazardous amount of any kind of ultraviolet. The flame temperature is comparable to that of propylene. Torch kits similar to propane torch kits but with propylene (which burns a little hotter than propane) are commonly sold in hardware stores and home centers. For that matter, acetylene burns with a hotter flame than hydrogen does, and acetylene burning with air (as opposed to pure oxygen) does not have an ultraviolet hazard.
He didn’t say the amount was a hazard.