Global warming on trial and the elementary error of physics that caused the global warming scare

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

This will be a long posting, but it will not be found uninteresting.

Global warming on trial: Global warming goes on trial at 8.00 am this Wednesday, 21 March 2018, in Court 8 on the 19th floor of the Federal Building at 450 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco. Court 8 is the largest of the courtrooms in the Federal District Court of Northern California. They’re clearly expecting a crowd. The 8 am start, rather than the usual 10 am, is because the judge in the case is an early bird.

The judge: His Honor Judge William Haskell Alsup, who will preside over the coyly-titled “People of California” v. British Petroleum plc et al., is not to be underestimated. Judge Alsup, as the senior member of the Northern California Bench (he has been there for almost two decades), gets to pick the cases he likes the look of. He is no ordinary, custard-faced law graduate. Before he descended to the law (he wanted to help the civil rights movement), he earned a B.S. in engineering at Mississippi State University.

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Don’t mess with me: His Honor Judge Alsup flourishing a tract by his mentor, the Supreme Court justice whom he once served as Clerk.

Six years ago, in an acrimonious hearing between Oracle and Google, the two Silicon-Valley giants were arguing about nine lines of computer code, which Oracle said Google had filched for its Android cellphone system. In preparation for the case, Oracle had tested 15 million lines of Android code, and had found that just nine lines – a subroutine known as rangeCheck – had been copied keystroke for keystroke. Oracle’s case was that these nine lines of code, though representing only 0.00006% of the Android software, were a crucial element in the system. Judge Alsup did not buy that argument.

Rumors gather about great men. In hushed tones, those who talk of Judge Alsup say he taught himself the Java programming language so that he could decide the rangeCheck case. In fact, he is not familiar with Java, but he does write computer code using qBasic, which used to be bundled free with MS-DOS. On the vast desk in his book-lined office sits a 2011-vintage Dell laptop, the only one he has that will still run qBasic. He has written programs for his ham-radio hobby, for the Mastermind board game, and for his wife’s bridge game.

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The 18-year-old Bill Alsup at his ham radio console in Mississippi.

This, then, is that rarest of creatures, a tech-savvy judge. And he has taken the very rare but commendable step of ordering both parties to answer nine scientific questions about climate change in preparation for what he has called a “tutorial” on the subject next Wednesday.

Hearing of this case, and of Bill Alsup’s starring role, I wondered what line of argument might convince a scientifically literate judge that the plaintiffs, two Californian cities who want the world’s five biggest oil corporations to pay them to adapt to rising sea level, that there is no cause for alarm about manmade global warming.

Judge Alsup might well be moved to dismiss the plaintiffs’ case provided that the defendants were able to establish definitively that fears of global warming had been very greatly exaggerated.

Two propositions: If the following two propositions were demonstrated, His Honor might decide – and all but a few irredentists would be compelled to agree – that global warming was not a problem and that the scare was over.

1. It can be proven that an elementary error of physics is the sole cause of alarm about global warming – elementary because otherwise non-climatologists might not grasp it.

2. It can be proven that, owing to that elementary error, current official mid-range estimates of equilibrium sensitivity to anthropogenic activity are at least twice what they should be.

Regular readers will know that my contributions here have been infrequent in the past year. The reason is that I have had the honor to lead a team of eminent climatological researchers who have been quietly but very busily investigating how much global warming we may cause, known as the “equilibrium-sensitivity” question.

We can now prove both points itemized above, and we have gone to more than customary lengths to confirm by multiple empirical methods what we originally demonstrated by a theoretical method. The half-dozen methods all cohere in the same ballpark.

Three days before His Honor posted up his list of questions on climate science, my team had submitted a paper on our result to a leading climatological journal (by convention, I am bound not to say which until publication).

The judge’s question: When I saw His Honor’s eighth question, “What are the main sources of heat that account for the incremental rise in temperature on Earth?”, I contacted my eight co-authors, who all agreed to submit an amicus curiae or “friend-of-the-court” brief.

Our reply: Our amicus brief, lodged for us by a good friend of the ever-valuable Heartland Institute, concludes with a respectful recommendation that the court should reject the plaintiffs’ case and that it should also order the oil corporations to meet their own costs in the cause because their me-too public statements to the effect that global warming is a “problem” that requires to be addressed are based on the same elementary error as the plaintiffs’ case.

In effect, the oil corporations have invited legal actions such as this, wherefore they should pay the cost of their folly in accordance with the ancient legal principle volenti non fit injuria – if you stick your chin out and invite someone to hit it, don’t blub if someone hits it.

The judge has the right to accept or reject the brief, so we accompanied our brief with the usual short application requesting the court to accept it for filing. Since the rules of court require the brief to be lodged as an exhibit to the application, the brief stands part of the court papers in any event, has been sent to all parties, and is now publicly available on PACER, the Federal judiciary’s public-access database.

Therefore, I am at last free to reveal what we have discovered. There is indeed an elementary error of physics right at the heart of the models’ calculations of equilibrium sensitivity. After correcting that error, and on the generous assumption that official climatology has made no error other than that which we have exposed, global warming will not be 3.3 ± 1.2 K: it will be only 1.2 ± 0.15 K. We say we can prove it.

The proof: I shall now outline our proof. Let us begin with the abstract of the underlying paper. It is just 70 words long, for the error (though it has taken me a dozen years to run it to earth) really is stupendously elementary:

Abstract: In a dynamical system, even an unamplified input signal induces a response to any feedback. Hitherto, however, the large feedback response to emission temperature has been misattributed to warming from the naturally-occurring, non-condensing greenhouse gases. After correction, the theoretically-derived pre-industrial feedback fraction is demonstrated to cohere with the empirically-derived industrial-era value an order of magnitude below previous estimates, mandating reduction of projected Charney sensitivity from clip_image006 to clip_image008.

Equations: To understand the argument that follows, we shall need three equations.

The zero-dimensional-model equation (1) says that equilibrium sensitivity or final warming ΔTeq is the ratio of reference sensitivity or initial warming ΔTref to (1 – f ), where f is the feedback fraction, i.e., the fraction of ΔTeq represented by the feedback response ΔT(ref) to ΔTref. The entire difference between reference and equilibrium sensitivity is accounted for by the feedback response ΔT(ref) (the bracketed subscript indicates a feedback response).

ΔTeq = ΔTref / (1 – f ). (1)

The zero-dimensional model is not explicitly used in general-circulation models. However, it is the simplest expression of the difference between reference sensitivity before accounting for feedback and equilibrium sensitivity after accounting for feedback. Eq. (1), a simplified form of the feedback-amplification equation that originated in electronic network analysis, is of general application when deriving the feedback responses in all dynamical systems upon which feedbacks bear. The models must necessarily reflect it.

Eq. (1) is used diagnostically not only to derive equilibrium sensitivity (i.e. final warming) from official inputs but also to derive the equilibrium sensitivity that the models would be expected to predict if the inputs (such as the feedback fraction f ) were varied. We conducted a careful calibration exercise to confirm that the official reference sensitivity and the official interval of the feedback fraction, when input to Eq. (1), indeed yield the official interval of equilibrium sensitivity.

The feedback-fraction equation (2): If the reference sensitivity ΔTref and the equilibrium sensitivity ΔTeq are specified, the feedback fraction f is found by rearranging (1) as (2):

f = 1 – ΔTref / ΔTeq. (2)

The reference-sensitivity equation (3): Reference sensitivity ΔTref is the product of a radiative forcing ΔQ0, in Watts per square meter, and the Planck reference-sensitivity parameter λ0, in Kelvin per Watt per square meter.

ΔTref = λ0 ΔQ0. (3)

The Planck parameter λ0 is currently estimated at about 0.3125, or 3.2–1 K W–1 m2 (Soden & Held 2006; Bony 2006, Appendix A; IPCC 2007, p. 631 fn.). The CO2 radiative forcing ΔQ0 is 3.5 W m–2 (Andrews 2012). Therefore, from Eq. (3), reference sensitivity ΔTref to doubled CO2 concentration is about 1.1 K.

The “natural greenhouse effect” is not 32 K: The difference of 32 K between natural temperature TN (= 287.6 K) in 1850 and emission temperature TE (= 255.4 K) without greenhouse gases or temperature feedbacks was hitherto imagined to comprise 8 K (25%) base warming ΔTB directly forced by the naturally-occurring, non-condensing greenhouse gases and a 24 K (75%) feedback response ΔT(B) to ΔTB, implying a pre-industrial feedback fraction f ≈ 24 / 32 = 0.75 (Lacis et al., 2010).

Similarly, the CMIP3/5 models’ mid-range reference sensitivity ΔTS (= 3.5 x 0.3125 = 1.1 K) and Charney sensitivity ΔT (= 3.3 K) (Charney sensitivity is equilibrium sensitivity to doubled CO2), imply a feedback fraction f = 1 – 1.1 / 3.3 = 0.67 (Eq. 2) in the industrial era.

The error: However, climatologists had made the grave error of not realizing that emission temperature TE (= 255 K) itself induces a substantial feedback. To correct that long-standing error, we illustratively assumed that the feedback fractions f in response to TE and to ΔTB were identical. Then we derived f simply by replacing the delta values ΔTref, ΔTeq in (2) with the underlying entire quantities Tref, Teq, setting Tref = TE + ΔTB, and Teq = TN (Eq. 4),

f = 1 –Tref / Teq = 1 – (TE + ΔTB) / TN

= 1 – (255.4 + 8) / 287.6 = 0.08. (4)

Contrast this true pre-industrial value f = 0.08 with the CMIP5 models’ current mid-range estimate f = 1 – 1.1 / 3.3 = 0.67 (Eq. 2), and with the f = 0.75 applied by Lacis et al. (2010) not only to the 32 K “entire natural greenhouse effect” but also to “current climate”.

Verification: We took no small trouble to verify by multiple empirical methods the result derived by the theoretical method in Eq. (4).

Test 1: IPCC’s best estimate (IPCC, 2013, fig. SPM.5) is that some 2.29 W m–2 of net anthropogenic forcing arose in the industrial era to 2011. The product of that value and the Planck parameter is the 0.72 K reference warming (Eq. 3).

However, 0.76 K warming was observed (taken as the linear trend on the HadCRUT4 monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies, 1850-2011).

Therefore, the industrial-era feedback fraction f is equal to 1 – 0.72 / 0.76. or 0.05 (Eq. 2). That is close to the pre-industrial value f = 0.08: but it is an order of magnitude (i.e., approximately tenfold) below the models’ 0.67 or Lacis’ 0.75.

There is little change that some feedbacks had not fully acted. The feedbacks listed in IPCC (2013, p. 818, table 9.5) as being relevant to the derivation of equilibrium sensitivity are described by IPCC (2013, p. 128, Fig. 1.2) as having the following durations: Water vapor and lapse-rate feedback hours; Cloud feedback days; Surface albedo feedback years.

The new headline Charney sensitivity: Thus, Charney sensitivity is not 1.1 / (1 – 0.67) = 3.3 K (Eq. 1), the CMIP5 models’ imagined mid-range estimate (Andrews 2012). Instead, whether f = 0.05 or 0.08, Charney sensitivity ΔTeq = 1.1 / (1 – f ) is 1.2 K (Eq. 1). That new headline value is far too small to worry about.

Test 2: We sourced mainstream estimates of net anthropogenic forcing over ten different periods in the industrial era, converting each to reference sensitivity using Eq. (3) and then finding the feedback fraction f for each period using Eq. (2).

The mean of the ten values of f was 0.12, somewhat higher than the value 0.05 based on IPCC’s mid-range estimate of 2.29 W m–2 net anthropogenic forcing in the industrial era. The difference was driven by three high-end outliers in our table of ten results. Be that as it may, Charney sensitivity for f = 0.12 is only 1.25 K.

Test 3: We checked how much global warming had occurred since 1950, when IPCC says our influence on climate became detectable. The CMIP5 mid-range prediction of Charney sensitivity, at 3.3 K, is about equal to the original mid-range prediction of 21st-century global warming derivable from IPCC (1990, p. xiv), where 1.8 K warming compared with the pre-industrial era [equivalent to 1.35 K warming compared with 1990] is predicted for the 40-year period 1991-2030, giving a centennial warming rate of 1.35 / (40 / 100) = 3.3 K.

This coincidence of values allowed us to compare the 1.2 K Charney sensitivity derived from f on [0.05, 0.12] in Eq. (4) with the least-squares linear-regression trend on the HadCRUT4 monthly global mean surface temperature anomalies over the 68 years 1950-2017. Sure enough, the centennial-equivalent warming was 1.2 K/century:

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The centennial-equivalent warming rate from 1950-2017 was 1.2 K/century

Test 4: We verified that the centennial-equivalent warming rate in the first 17 years (one-sixth) of the 21st century was not significantly greater than the rate since 1950. We averaged the monthly global mean surface and lower-troposphere temperature anomalies from the HadCRUT4 terrestrial and UAH satellite datasets and derived the least-squares linear-regression trend (the bright blue line on the graph below).

The satellite data were included because they cover a five-mile-high slab of the atmosphere immediately above the surface, and have a coverage greater than the terrestrial measurements. The trend was found to be clip_image012, equivalent to clip_image014/century:

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Test 5: To confirm that we had understood feedback theory correctly, one of my distinguished co-authors, a hands-on electronics engineer, heard of our result and built a test rig in which we were able to specify the input signal (i.e., emission temperature TE) as a voltage, and also the direct-gain factor μ to allow for direct natural or anthropogenic forcings, and the feedback fraction β (we were using the more precise form of Eq. 1 that is usual in electronic network analysis). Then it was a simple matter directly to measure the output signal (i.e. equilibrium sensitivity ΔTeq).

The most crucial of the many experiments we ran on this rig was to set μ to unity, implying no greenhouse forcing at all. We set the feedback fraction β to a non-zero value and then verified that the output signal exceeded the input signal by the expected margin. Not at all to our surprise, it did. This experiment proved that emission temperature, on its own, induced a feedback response that climatology had hitherto overlooked.

This is where the elementary error made by climatologists for half a century has had its devastating effect. Look again at Eq. (1). The input signal is altogether absent. Although it is acceptable to use Eq. (1) to derive equilibrium sensitivities from reference sensitivities, the mistake made by the modelers was to assume, as Lacis et al. (2010) and many others had assumed, that the entire difference of 32 K between the natural temperature TN in 1850 and the emission temperature TE was accounted for by the natural greenhouse effect, comprising a direct greenhouse warming ΔTB = 8 K and a very large feedback reponse ΔT(B) = 24 K to ΔTB.

However, in truth – this is the crucial point – the emission temperature TE (= 255 K), even in the absence of any greenhouse gases, induces a large feedback response ΔTE. This feedback response to the input signal is entirely uncontroversial in electronic network analysis and in control theory generally, but we have not been able to find any acknowledgement in climatology that it exists.

Just as Lacis (2010) did, the modelers assumed that the industrial-era feedback fraction must be every bit as large as the pre-industrial feedback fraction that they had erroneously inflated by adding the large feedback response induced by emission temperature to the small feedback response induced by the presence of the naturally-occurring greenhouse gases.

It was that assumption that led the modelers to assume that there must be some very strongly positive feedbacks, chief among which was the water-vapor feedback. However, although the Clausius-Clapeyron relation indicates that the space occupied by the atmosphere can carry near-exponentially more water vapor as it warms, there is nothing to say that it must.

Suppose there were a water-vapor feedback anything like as large as that which the models have assumed (and they have assumed a very large feedback only because they are trying to explain the large but fictitious feedback fraction consequent upon their erroneous assumption that emission temperature of 255 K somehow induces no feedback response at all, while the next 8 K of warming magically induces a 24 K feedback response). In that event, atmospheric dynamics requires that there must be a tropical mid-troposphere “hot spot” [I had the honor to name it], where the warming rate should be twice or thrice that at the tropical surface. However, the “hot spot” is not observed in reality (see below), except in one suspect dataset that Dr Fred Singer scrutinized some years ago and determined to be defective.

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Models predict the tropical mid-troposphere “hot spot” (top, IPCC 2007, citing Santer 2003; above left, Lee et al. 2008; above right, Karl et al., 2006).

However, the “hot spot” is not observed in reality (see below). Our result shows why not. The “hot spot” is an artefact of the modelers’ error in misallocating the substantial feedback response induced by emission temperature by adding it to the very small feedback response induced by the naturally-occurring greenhouse gases.

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The model-predicted “hot spot” is not observed in reality (Karl et al. 2006).

Test 6: Even after we had built and operated our own test rig – as far as we know, this is the first time anyone has tried to test climatological feedback theory empirically rather than simply modeling it – we were not satisfied that anything other than tests performed under rigorous conditions at a government laboratory would be found widely acceptable.

Accordingly, based on the results of our in-house test rig, we drew up a more sophisticated specification for a new rig, together with four test groups comprising 23 sets of three quantities – the input signal, the direct-gain factor and the feedback fraction. Armed with the specification, I commissioned a government laboratory to carry out the experiments.

However, a problem at once arose – indeed, it was a problem with which our own engineer had wrestled. So very small were the feedback responses predicted by long-established control theory that even the presence of the operator in the same room as the test rig tended to bias the results.

Accordingly, I worked for months with a patient and amiable scientist at the government laboratory. Eventually, by somewhat altering the initial-state values specified for the 23 tests, I was able to give the scientist values that would yield results to the required precision but without loss of experimental integrity.

In due course the laboratory reported, and the results of all 23 tests – to within one-tenth of a Kelvin – were exactly as we had been able to predict theoretically. Again, the most important results were for the group of tests in which the direct-gain factor was set to unity, so that we could reassure ourselves that control theory was correct in predicting that, in the presence of a non-zero feedback fraction, even an unamplified input signal would induce a feedback response that would either amplify or attenuate it.

Another snag arose. When I had originally approached the laboratory, I had not mentioned that the research had anything to do with climate change, because all I wanted to do was to establish that we had understood the relevant control theory correctly.

When the laboratory reported, I sent it a copy of our draft paper, in which the lab results were mentioned. The laboratory panicked and said we were not allowed to use its report.

However, I had written into the contract a term to the effect that we intended to include the laboratory’s results, and a discussion of them, in an academic paper. A compromise was reached, by which we are free to include the laboratory’s results in our paper, as long as we do not mention either the name of the laboratory or the name of the scientist there who built and ran the high-specification rig for us.

The laboratory also kindly confirmed that we had represented its results fairly in our paper and had drawn justifiable conclusions from them. Furthermore, much to our pleasure, it promoted the scientist who had assisted us. He wrote us a charming letter to say that he had not allowed, and would not allow, politics to intrude into the work he had carried out for us.

With these results from a national laboratory (we cannot even mention which country it was in) we were at last content that we had established our conclusion with sufficient rigor.

The true picture: How should the 32 K difference between emission temperature and natural temperature be apportioned? Approximately 23.4 K of the 32 K is the feedback response to emission temperature; 8 K is the directly-forced warming from the presence of the natural greenhouse gases; and just 0.7 K is feedback response to that 8 K warming (panel b):

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(a) Erroneous apportionment of the 32 K difference between natural temperature in 1850 and emission temperature in the absence of any greenhouse gases, given in Lacis et al. (2010).

(b) Corrected apportionment of the 32 K, allowing for the feedback response (blue) to emission temperature; the directly-forced warming from the naturally-occurring, non-condensing greenhouse gases (yellow); and the feedback response to that greenhouse warming (red).

Looking at it the other way about, if the feedback fraction were really as large as the 0.75 imagined by Lacis et al. (2010), then the Earth’s emission temperature of 255.4 K would induce a feedback response of 766.2 K, and the 8 K greenhouse warming would induce a feedback response of 24 K, so that the pre-industrial or natural temperature in 1850 would be 255.4 + 766.2 + 8 + 24 ≈ 1054 K, about three and a half times the true value of 287.6 K.

We also considered whether non-linearities in individual feedbacks might vitiate our result. However, to obtain even the 1.5 K minimum Charney sensitivity predicted by IPCC one would need to multiply at least fivefold the empirically-derived industrial-era feefdback fraction f = 0.05.

The reason why even a very large nonlinearity in the feedback sum and consequently in the feedback fraction makes little difference to equilibrium sensitivities is that the curve of equilibrium sensitivities in the presence of various feedback factors is a rectangular hyperbola (see below). Our result shows that the sensitivity calculation is not done, as now, rather close to the singularity at f = 1 (note in passing that for f > 1 Eq. (1) predicts cooling); instead, it is done at the left-hand end of the curve, where the sensitivity increases very slowly with f:

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The rectangular-hyperbolic curve of Charney sensitivities in response to feedback fractions f, showing current predictions compared with the corrected result.

The outcome of the case: What will His Honor make of all this? My guess is that he will allow our amicus brief to be filed. With his engineering background, he will have no difficulty in understanding why we say that the notion of catastrophic rather than moderate global warming is rooted in the elementary physical error we have discovered.

Therefore, we hope His Honor will ask all parties to provide formal responses to our brief. On any view, it plainly raises a serious question about whether global warming matters at all – a question that strikes right to the heart not only of the case before him but of numerous other such cases now arising in several jurisdictions – and showing some evidence of careful co-ordination.

The parties will not be able to dismiss our result lightly. To refute it, they would have to show that our pre-industrial feedback fraction f = 0.08, obtained by theoretical means rooted in mainstream control theory, is incorrect; that our industrial-era value f = 0.05, obtained empirically from IPCC’s estimate of the net anthropogenic forcing to date and from the HadCRUT4 temperature record, is also incorrect; that our campaign of ten empirical calculations giving a mean feedback fraction f = 0.12, is incorrect; that the rate of observed warming over the past 68 years is either incorrect or irrelevant; that the rate of observed warming this century to date is also either incorrect or irrelevant; that the results from our test rig are inapplicable; that the results from a government laboratory are likewise inapplicable; and, above all, that it is justifiable to assume that control theory is wrong and that, per impossibile. 255.4 K of emission temperature generates no feedback at all, while the next 8 K of warming suddenly causes 24 K of feedback, as if by magic.

We do not believe in magic.

Conclusion: The anthropogenic global warming we can now expect will be small, slow, harmless, and even net-beneficial. It is only going to be about 1.2 K this century, or 1.2 K per CO2 doubling. If the parties are not able to demonstrate that we are wrong, and if His Honor accepts that we have proven the result set out publicly and in detail here for the first time, then the global warming scare was indeed based on a strikingly elementary error of physics.

The avowedly alarmist position too hastily adopted by governments and international bureaucratic entities has caused the most egregious misallocation of resources in history.

Ladies and gentlemen, we call time on a 50-year-old scam, in which a small number of corrupt and politicized scientists, paid for by scientifically-illiterate governments panicked by questionable lobby-groups funded by dubious billionaires and foreign governments intent on doing down the West, and egged on by the inept and increasingly totalitarian news media, have conspired to perpetrate a single falsehood: that the science was settled.

Well, it wasn’t.

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Pierre DM
March 21, 2018 10:28 pm

Wow, over 700 responses with only a handful of replies addressing Monckton of Brenchley’s real question. The argument is ingeniously framed to accept all the junk science the warmest have to offer with the disagreement coming down to one assumption that introduces a large irreconcilable error. By accepting all junk science there is little wiggle room for the warmest’s obfuscating the argument other than addressing the central question of feedback assumption. The end game is a political win to a political argument and not a science argument as the rest of the junk science is accepted for the sake of focusing the argument.
I don’t think in the end a checkmate will be that easy because there is a lot of careers and money riding on this. Even in this tread, I clearly see a lot of bait and switch to anything other than the elephant in the room (the feedback error) by many of the 700 posters.

Reply to  Pierre DM
March 22, 2018 4:36 am

Pierre DM sums up my own feelings exactly. The responses there fall into a number of categories. There are the few who have addressed the argument directly, though not one of them has faced the central question of how feedbacks such as water-vapor feedback or albedo feedbacks know that they should not respond to the first 255 K of temperature but should by some magic suddenly decide to respond to any temperature change above that value. There are the paid trolls for the scamsters, whose intent is to disrupt the thread with diversionary tactics. There are those who have their own pet theories and want to air them, even though those theories are usually off the current topic. There are the haters, who simply want to vent their spleen with ad-hom attacks (all of us who have dared to question the Party Line get that). There are those who say that nonlinearities vitiate our result, but without providing any quantitative analysis and without taking account of the fact that even if one uses the explicitly linear zero-dimensional model with the official inputs one obtains the official outputs, because the effect being measured is so small that nonlinearities simply don’t make much difference. And, gloriously, there are those who, like you and me, are – in al-Haytham’s immortal words – “seekers after truth”.
The virtue of our discovery (after years of seaching) is that at root it is very simple. The only reason why the head posting is as long as it is is to nail shut the rat-holes by which the usual suspects would otherwise gallop away and escape. Because I have adopted the approach of holding my nose and accepting for the sake of argument various elements in the official climate-change case, several of the trolls have begun attacking that case because it seems to be the only way to avoid having to deal with the argument in front of them. To them I have replied that the concept of accepting many – if not most – of the other side’s premises for the sake of argument (albeit without warranty) is a long-established method in disputation.
Finally, perhaps the dopiest of all the arguments against what we have discovered is that it is simple. One of the many problems arising from the abandonment of universal Classical education is that most people no longer know any of the philosophy of thought. Occam’s Razor says “essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem” – there’s no need to bolt on complexities unless they are really necessary. The truth is that the error we have discovered right at the heart of climatological physics, which arose because feedback math had been borrowed from control theory but without understanding it, is a simple error. And therein lies not its defect but its merit. A far larger number of the commenters here than I expected have grasped the nature of the error. They have understood it. More than this: they have recognized the not always honest attempts of certain parties here to derail it by frankly unscientific methods as the flannel they are.
Does this mean we are right for certain? Well, science does not often allow its practitioners to declare that they are right beyond all doubt. All that can be said at this stage is that we think we are right and that nothing in this thread has led us to think otherwise. But my mind remains open, and we shall see what the formal peer reviews have to say.

Pierre DM
Reply to  Pierre DM
March 22, 2018 11:19 pm

symbolism over substance.

Me
March 22, 2018 1:25 am

As I thought, Lord Monckton’s opponents are not arguing against his maths, they simply deny that an electrical rig can be used to model the Earth’s temperature and temperature feedbacks. They do not accept that the Earth’s emission temperature is analogous to the input into the experimental rig and that therefore it cannot be claimed that the Earth’s emission temperature generates a feedback. An impasse.
Lives and billions of dollars are at stake, could a rig or physical model, using heat rather than electricity, prove that emission temperature on an Earth-like black body generates a feedback?

Peter Langlee
Reply to  Me
March 22, 2018 3:01 am

Spot on, the electrical experiment will never be accepted. However, an experiment with a small scale earth should be possible, which would prove that emission temperature will cause water vapour feedback without non-condensing GHGs.

Me
Reply to  Peter Langlee
March 22, 2018 3:52 am

Perhaps it is not possible. What would you need? Perhaps an iron ball, with fissures and pits to hold water, enclosed in glass, with a point source of heat, all enclosed in an opaque box? then what? Launch it into space and keep it shaded from the sun?
If that were possible it’s difficult to believe there would not be temperature increase from the action of the water vapour.

Reply to  Me
March 24, 2018 11:24 am

In response to those who, like Mr Langlee, think that “an electrical experiment would never be accepted” as a confirmation of our theoretical result, they should perhaps address themselves not to me but to climatology generally, which, in paper after paper after paper, have expressly stated that they have taken their feedback theory from network analysis in electronic feedback-amplifier design. They cannot logically say that they may use electronic circuitry but we may not. What they could perhaps do is to try to say that we are wrong in our contention that emission temperature itself induces a feedback response.
However, if they say we are wrong in that contention, they must find a convincing answer to the question why – since the equations they use, derived from electronic network analysis, demonstrate that emission temperature does induce a feedback response – the feedback processes in the climate will not respond to 255 K of emission temperature but will suddenly, as if by magic, respond massively to the mere 8 K of directly-forced warming once the non-condensing greenhouse gases are added to the atmosphere.

Dr. Strangelove
March 22, 2018 3:33 am

Lord Monckton
As I said in previous post, if you want to use the feedback equation for amplifier circuit, you should not use temperature. If you substitute temperature for voltage, you cannot get the correct feedback factor because the relationship between voltage and temperature is non-linear and quite complicated. This is how to convert voltage to temperature in amplifier circuit.
Heat inflow rate from Joule heating:
Q1/t = (Va – Vb)^2 /R
Where: Q1/t is heat flow rate, (Va – Vb) is voltage drop across points a and b along the wire, R is ohmic resistance of wire between points a and b
Heat inflow rate from radiative heat transfer (Stefan-Boltzmann law):
Q2/t = o Ta^4 A
Where: o is Stefan-Boltzmann constant, Ta is initial temperature of wire, A is surface area of wire between points a and b
Heat outflow rate from radiative heat transfer (Stefan-Boltzmann law):
Q3/t = e o Tb^4 A
Where: e is emissivity of wire, Tb is final temperature of wire
Heat outflow rate from convection (Newton’s law of cooling):
Q4/t = h (Tb – T) A
Where: h is coefficient of convective heat transfer, T is ambient air temperature
Calculating the net heat flow:
Q = (Q1/t + Q2/t – Q3/t – Q4/t) t
Where: Q is net heat flow, t is time interval between measurements
Calculating the final temperature:
Q = C m (Tb – Ta)
Tb = Ta + Q/(C m)
Where: C is specific heat of wire, m is mass of wire between points a and b
So you see the relationship between voltage (Va) and final temperature (Tb) is quite complicated as you have to solve the above equations to convert it. And you have to solve the equations twice, first for input wire, second for output wire. You cannot just substitute temperature for voltage in the feedback equation because they are not interchangeable. This is just for a copper wire. Earth’s climate system is much more complicated than a copper wire. A proper computation requires solving the unsolvable Navier-Stokes equations. So you cannot just substitute temperature for energy flux when applying the amplifier feedback equation to the climate system.

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 22, 2018 4:17 am

“Dr Strangelove” provides an interesting but not necessarily relevant discussion of the mathematics involved in determining the temperature in an electronic circuit. Like others here, he may not be aware that feedback mathematics is of universal application in those dynamical systems (i.e. those that change their state over time) on which feedbacks operate.
We were not interested in measuring any temperature from the circuit. We were only interested in the very careful temperature regulation of the ambient air so as not to cause irregularities in the performance of the circuit. We lacked the equipment to do that ourselves, so we went to a government laboratory, which did it for us.
We simply used centivolts as an analog for Kelvin. This is a well understood and quite normal approach. The test rigs delivered precisely the theoretically-expected outputs, confirming that we had properly understood the underlying theory.
The central point we wanted confirmed was whether, even in the absence of any direct gain owing to the presence of greenhouse gases, the input voltage (in this instance 2.554 V) would induce a feedback response where the feedback fraction was set to a nonzero value. The answer, of course, was Yes. But, as you will see in this thread, climatologists on all sides of the debate simply don’t believe this, because – just like me until I did a series of calculations that produced daft results that required explanation – they had been misled into thinking that the zero-dimensional-model equation only allowed for changes in temperature rather than for entire temperatures as the input and output signals.
In the end, we shall need to get our result sanctified by peer review at a credible journal of climatology. That will not prove easy, but we are trying. The process of peer review that we face will be far more rigorous than that which the true-believers must face, because everyone in climatology, even including the skeptical scientists, is making money out of this scam, and no one wants the gravy-train to hit the buffers. But we are interested in the objective, scientific truth, whatever it may be.
In the end, the central question for climatology that arises from our result is this: By what process, mechanism or magic do the temperature feedbacks in the climate system know that they should not operate in the presence of the Earth’s emission temperature but that they should operate the moment that temperature grows a little owing to the presence of greenhouse gases?
So far, nobody in this thread has answered that question. It has been circumvented and ducked, time and again. Our result is correct according to long-established feedback theory; it is correct according to the test rigs we had built; it is correct when compared with the empirical evidence from anthropogenic forcing and warming to date; it is correct when compared with the observed rate of warming. In the end, therefore, it will take more than a little effort for climatology to demonstrate that we are incorrect. We think it unlikely that we are incorrect.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 22, 2018 10:13 am

Someone once said a picture is worth 1000 words. Where is the circuit for the “in home” test rig? Why not humor us EEs.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 22, 2018 3:14 pm

In the end, the central question for climatology that arises from our result is this: By what process, mechanism or magic do the temperature feedbacks in the climate system know that they should not operate in the presence of the Earth’s emission temperature but that they should operate the moment that temperature grows a little owing to the presence of greenhouse gases?
So far, nobody in this thread has answered that question.

Allow me to venture a prelude to a final answer (by someone more brilliant than me) to the question posed.
Here goes:
Any process or mechanism that acted in such a way that allowed the climate system to “know” anything would, indeed, be magic. (^_^)
Seriously though, what I take issue with is the manner of speaking about emission temperature as a causative agent or an “inducer” of effects. Emission temperature is a RESULT of the surface-atmosphere aggregate system’s being heated by many causes. This temperature is NOT a single cause, in and of itself, as I have understood the concept. To think of it as a cause or “inducer” at all seems fatally flawed. To do so leads to circular thinking going ’round and ’round the truth that CO2 has had no discernible, heretofore measured effect from its proposed, vehemently preached cause of increasing global temperature.
If no effect can be measured from a proposed cause, then the proposed cause has NOT been determined to exist. It seems that simple.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 22, 2018 3:59 pm

Mr Hutchins asks for a picture of the circuits for the test rigs made by one of us and by a government laboratory. He will have to wait for the peer-reviewed paper.

Dr. Strangelove
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 23, 2018 3:25 am

My Lord, you did not answer my main critique. Why do you use temperature in the amplifier feedback equation when amplifier circuits use voltage or current or power but not temperature? You also used voltage in your own tests. You can only substitute temperature for voltage in the amplifier circuit if heat transfer by radiation and convection is negligible. But this assumption is not true for the climate system. The correct substitute for voltage is energy flux (W/m^2) in the climate system. They are both flow of particles: electrons in electronic circuits; photons for radiation and gas molecules for convection in climate system. Why are you averse in using energy flux?
As for peer review, I suggest you send your paper to Prof. Lindzen and ask him if using absolute temperature in the feedback equation is correct physics. He is an atmospheric physicist and knows the subject very well. I would be glad to hear his feedback (pun intended)

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 11:07 am

In response to “Dr Strangelove”, one can denominate one’s circuit in various units, and even in mixtures of units, as Schlesinger (1985) does. We have denominated our circuits in centivolts (to represent Kelvin) because temperature feedbacks are responses not to radiative flux densities in Watts per square meter but to temperatures in Kelvin, which is why temperature feedbacks are denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin.
To ensure that our feedback theory was correct, we recruited two hands-on electronic engineers with a good working knowledge of feedback theory, and also a professor of applied control theory, whose distinguished contributions have helped us to represent the feedback theory correctly.
Professor Lindzen is an atmospheric physicist – arguably the greatest on the planet. But temperature feedback math is not his specialism, and those who would not wish to accept our result unless they were left with no choice would not have accepted him as an authority on feedback theory. Therefore, during the early stages, we consulted a professor who specializes in the application of feedback theory to climate, who considered that we were on to something. Then we recruited the control-theorists I have mentioned, and now the paper has been submitted for peer review, and it will be up to the editor-in-chief of the leading climatological journal in question, who is handling our paper personally, to choose whom he considers to be the relevant experts to examine our result and to make recommendations.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 11:11 am

In response to Mr Kernodle, in science, as in formal logic, a cause (such as insolation and albedo) may be responsible for an effect – such as the Earth’s emission temperature of 255 K. In science, as in logic, an effect may also itself be a cause. Since feedback processes are present in the climate system, the presence of the emission temperature induces a feedback response in the form of an additional temperature.

Dr. Strangelove
Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 22, 2018 5:20 am

Correction: Q3/t must be in integral form
Q3/t = e o A/(Tb – Ta) int dT^4 from Ta to Tb
And Q4/t must be average temperature
Q4/t = h A ((Ta+Tb)/2 – T)

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 22, 2018 3:59 pm

Mr Kernodle suffers from the same difficulty as many others on both sides of the debate. He cannot understand how an entire temperature such as the Earth’s 255 K emission temperature, can induce a feedback response. So let me explain, yet again, that a temperature feedback, denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of the temperature that induced it, is a feedback to a temperature. That temperature may be either an entire temperature or a temperature change, or a sum of the two. The feedback mechanisms cannot distinguish between the two. They cannot jbow that the must not react to the first 255 K of temperature but must then react violently to the next 8 K of temperature.
The effect of the temperature feedbacks can of course be measured. We know that natural tempeature in 1850 was 32 K greater than the emission temperature. Climatology (e.g. Lacis 2010) estimates that about 8 K of this is directly-forced warming from greenhouse gases. The remainder of that measured difference is feedback. At present, climatology falsely imagines that all of that feedback originates as a result of just 8 K warming. In fact, it originates as a result of (255 + 8) = 263 K temperature. It really is as simple as that.

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 22, 2018 7:35 pm

Mr Kernodle suffers from the same difficulty as many others on both sides of the debate.
This must be a new definition of “suffering”, because I feel no pain. Perhaps it is not suffering at all, but rather comfort in greater insight than Lord Monckton has yet acquired.
He [“Mr. Kernodle”] cannot understand how an entire temperature such as the Earth’s 255 K emission temperature, can induce a feedback response..
More precisely, “he” [I, “Mr. Kernodle”] cannot understand how Lord Monckton can posit causative force to an effective measure like emission temperature.
Emission temperature IS itself. It cannot further cause itself to be more. Other factors cause what it is. It is what it is because of all those factors. CO2 partly causes it, but, not in ways or to an extent that popular explanations pose that it does, given its 1/2500 proportion of atmospheric volume.
So let me explain, yet again, that a temperature feedback, denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of the temperature that induced it, is a feedback to a temperature.
Okay, look at this sentence written as follows: So, let me explain, yet again, that a temperature feedback, … , is a feedback to a temperature. [You see, I omitted the qualifying phrase, denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of the temperature that induce it].
A wedding gift is a gift to a wedding. What really is being said in such a sentence? It seems to be saying the same thing twice in different words, like 1 = 0 – (-1). … a tautology or an identity. It gets us nowhere new.
That temperature may be either an entire temperature or a temperature change, or a sum of the two. The feedback mechanisms cannot distinguish between the two. They cannot jbow that the must not react to the first 255 K of temperature but must then react violently to the next 8 K of temperature.
The phrase, “feedback mechanisms” seems elusive to me. Stuff happens — okay, what stuff? — what mechanisms? [okay, we don’t really know] … And mechanisms have no cognitive ability to distinguish anything. This manner of speaking attributes human traits to inanimate entities, and so it seems like the wrong manner in which to be speaking. Climate does not “know” the way humans know, and humans certainly do not know in the way that climate “knows” — we don’t think like climate “thinks” — why pretend we can? (^_^)
That 255 K is a MEASURE of the mechanisms, NOT a cause that induces further actions of those mechanisms (whatever they might be) — any inducing is already done in that measure. The 255 K is a description of effect, NOT a cause itself. To suggest that 255 K is a cause of its own enhancement is both thermodynamically suspect as well as categorically confused, where the use of language is concerned.
The effect of the temperature feedbacks can of course be measured. We know that natural temperature in 1850 was 32 K greater than the emission temperature.
“Natural temperature” here I assume is what we might call “global average temperature”. This is a measure of near-surface temperature within a very restricted range of Earth’s surface. Emission temperature, on the other hand, is a measure of an aggregate temperature, in effect, averaged throughout all depths of Earth’s atmosphere from surface on upwards to multiple kilometers in altitude, and its “location” [if we must choose one] is much higher up in the atmosphere, ABOVE the surface to which this analysis tries to compare it.
Why, then, is it logical to compare a near-surface average to what is, in essence, a high-in-the-atmosphere “average”? THIS is my gripe. Using this comparison to say ANYTHING, thus, is nonsense, as I currently see it.
Climatology (e.g. Lacis 2010) estimates that about 8 K of this is directly-forced warming from greenhouse gases. The remainder of that measured difference is feedback. At present, climatology falsely imagines that all of that feedback originates as a result of just 8 K warming. In fact, it originates as a result of (255 + 8) = 263 K temperature. It really is as simple as that.
8K of a nonsensical mathematical difference is also nonsensical. Nonsense is not a basis for a scientific proof. Climatology, thus, is doing far-more-deeply-flawed manipulations than even Lord Monckton tries to expose.
The argument in the amicus seems to be that 255.4 K can feedback on itself to become 287.6 K … In other words, 255 K causes itself to become 288 K, but ignore the fact that 255 K and 288 K are incomparable measures, to begin with.
As I have said elsewhere, if nonsense can form the basis of an even better form of nonsense to do away with the nonsense that inspired it, then poetic justice could not get any better than this.

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 22, 2018 7:51 pm

Mr Bradley appears to be entirely unfamiliar with climatological physics. He sneers, in his characteristically petulant fashiion, at the notion that the temperature change arising from the directly-forced warming from the presence of the non-condensing greenhouse gases induces a feedback forcing that in turn causes an amplification of the original temperature change. Let him read Bode (1945, ch. 3) before coming back here.

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 22, 2018 8:04 pm

Mr Kernodle may like to read some of the early papers on the application of feedback theory to climate, such as Hansen (1981, 1984), or Schlesinger (1985), where he will find it explained that temperature feedbacks in climatology are feedbacks to surface temperature. If he disagrees with that convention, he should take the matter up with me but with climatology generally.
Mr Kernodle seems to believe that the amicus curiae brief says that the Earth’s emission temperature “feeds back on itself” and becomes 287 K. This appears to be wilful misdirectionj on his part. It is made quite plain in the head posting how the 32 K difference between emission temperature and temperature in 1850 is apportioned, and none of the apportionment constitutes any quantity feeding back upon itself.
The conditions precedent to the operation of feedbacks are (1) the presence of a temperature and (2) the presence of feedback mechanisms, such as the water vapor feedback, the surface albedo feedback and the cloud feedbacks. Note that the presence of a greenhouse-gas forcing is not necessary to the operation of feedbacks. Therefore, the 255 K emission temperature that would obtain at the surface in the absence of greenhouse gases itself induces a feedback response.
One does appreciate that this result seems surprising to those who had long assumed that emission temperature could not induce a feedback response. Well, it can and does. One consequence, as explained in the head posting, is that the true feedback fraction is likely to be an order of magnitude below current estimates.
Mr Kernodle takes me to task by describing the 32 K difference between emission temperature and surface temperature in 1850 as “a nonsensical difference”, though he does not say why. Throughout the peer-reviewed literature on climate sensitivity, the 33 K difference between emission temperature and today’s surface temperature is referred to over and over and over again. If, therefore, Mr Kernodle thinks that difference is nonsensical, then he should take the matter up not with me but with climatology generally. He is, in effect, saying that climatology is nonsense. He is entitled to his view: but, as I have repeatedly stated, my approach is to accept ad argumentum all propositions that I cannot demonstrate to be incorrect, so as to minimize the disagreement space and focus on the main point, which is climatology’s error in assuming that, in the presence of feedback mechanisms, the emission temperature will somehow not be able to induce a feedback response.

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 23, 2018 5:22 am

If Mr Bradley does not think that a temperature feedback enables a temperature to induce a change in temperature, let him take the matter up with climatology generally. If a temperature feedback cannot induce a feedback response, then there is no global warming problem, by definition. Problem solved.

Eric Barnes
March 22, 2018 11:39 am

Many kudos to Lord Monckton and his associates. It appears that climate scientists didn’t understand feedback in the first place and have greatly overstated any effects from anthropogenic CO2.
Your tenacity is much appreciated.

Reply to  Eric Barnes
March 22, 2018 2:14 pm

Barnes
The government bureaucrats
with science degrees
DID “understand” feedback.
CO2 warming alone
could not scare anyone,
but triple the worst case +1 degree C.
warming, with a invented out of
thin air water vapor positive feedback theory,
and only then can they scare people,
and have permanent job security!
The positive feedback is political,
not scientific, considering our planet
has had more CO2 in the air than now
for most of it’s 4.5 billion years,
with no evidence of
any positive feedback
runaway warming before.
The government bureaucrats
must know that,
but when the political goal is
to scare and control people
by claiming growing the government
and new taxes on private sector energy use
are the “only” answer — real science
no longer matters.
http://www.elOnionBloggle.Blogspot.com

Reply to  Eric Barnes
March 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Many thanks to Mr Barnes for his kind words for our team. It has been a long haul, and we are expecting quite a struggle to get through peer review, because our result is bound to be unpopular. But it does appear to be correct; and, now that the news of this grave error lurking at the heart of climatology is available, it will slowly but surely spread.
Once we have discovered whether anyone can find a material error in our result, we shall be informing the relevant public authorities (the British Prime Minister is already aware), and, in due course, we shall also be notifying the investigating and proecuting authorities with whom we have been working on certain specific instances of deception in climate science, so that if the necessary very large correction to official estimates of equilibrium sensitivity is not properly and fully made the authorities will be prepared so that they can intervene.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 23, 2018 4:13 pm

“What’s next, ringing the Queen “
“The King told the Queen, and the Queen told the Dairymaid…
The Dairymaid said, “There, there!””

March 22, 2018 2:16 pm

I think this article
and the huge numbers
of comments
proves ONLY one thing:
Climate science is NOT settled.
And perhaps that is the best reason
to stop the unjustified war on fossil fuels
based mainly on junk science ?

Chimp
March 22, 2018 4:14 pm

Interestingly, the Carbonari also like Alsup’s STEM background, homework preparation record and judicial history. Should he call BS on CACA, this will make it harder for Alarmunistas to trash talk him.
https://grist.org/briefly/4-surprising-facts-about-the-judge-behind-californias-climate-change-trial/
Doesn’t hurt that he also swatted Trump down over DACA (legislation about “Dreamers”, ie the minor children of illegal immigrants to the US, who grew up here).

Chimp
March 22, 2018 4:21 pm

Chris Monckton,
Rest assured that, should your team’s finding be supported upon rigorous review, the Carbonari will revert to form and attack you as a batty, bug-eyed Old, Soon to be Dead, Heterosexual, Upper Class, White Male, consignable to the trash heap of history on identity basis, ie ad hominem, grounds alone.
If you don’t have the facts, argue the law. If you don’t have the law, attack the person.
No doubt you’re prepared, having been down that muddy, bloody road before.

Reply to  Chimp
March 22, 2018 6:49 pm

In response to Chimp, the communist cities suing the oil corporations have just issued a brief that attacks me personally, but they have not yet prepared any brief attacking the science in our amicus brief. But, as you say, we are well used to being vilified. It won’t make any difference, though. If we are right about this error, it is so elementary that eventually everyone who wants to understand it will be able to do so. And that will be game over.

Stephanie Hawking
March 22, 2018 5:17 pm

I offer this for consideration.
Without an atmosphere the planet surface reaches equilibrium; there is a mean global surface temperature. A change in the energy received or retained by the planet will cause a change in that temperature.
If the forcing providing that energy is dependent on and follows another forcing it is called a feedback.
So adding an atmosphere with a non-condensing greenhouse gas results in a forcing; the temperature rises. Adding water vapour which is water vapour only as a result of the presence of the non-condensing gas is a feedback even though the temperature rises.
A temperature per se is not a forcing or a feedback.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 22, 2018 6:47 pm

In response to Stephanie Hawking, a temperature feedback is by definition a feedback induced by a temperature, not – repeat not – by a forcing (except to the extent that temperature changes are induced by forcings).
We realized, by sweating the math, that the emission temperature must induce a feedback response (an enhancement of the original temperature). Indeed, the version of the feedback loop used in all sciences other than climatology explicitly includes the input signal as part of the calculation.
But we knew that climatologists, misled by the form of the feedback-loop equation that they have always used, would think that the input signal (emission temperature) could not induce a feedback response.
So we went to a government laboratory and said, “Build us a feedback-loop circuit and feed in an input signal of 255 K, a direct-gain factor of unity (meaning no non-condensing greenhouse gases), and a feedback fraction of 0.1.” Now, climatology would say that, because there are no non-condensing greenhouse gases, and because emission temperature on its own can’t induce a feedback response, there will be no feedback response, so that the output signal (equilibrium temperature) will be the same as the input temperature: i.e., 255 K. But we say it will be 283 K.”
They built the rig, fed in the numbers, and the output signal, or equilibrium temperature, was 283 K.
Why is this so? Because the feedbacks are themselves forcings, denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of the temperature or temperature change that induced them. There is no magical process by which the feedbacks can tell whether the Kelvin that induces the feedback response is the original solar-driven temperature or whether it is an enhancement thereof owing to the directly-forced warming from the greenhouse gases. To the feedbacks, a temperature is a temperature, and they will respond to it, regardless of what caused it.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 22, 2018 11:11 pm

a temperature feedback is by definition a feedback induced by a temperature

I cannot see how a temperature per se is a feedback or a forcing. In a gas it’s just an indication of how fast the molecules are moving. As such it cannot cause anything to change within the system.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 23, 2018 5:04 am

Ms Hawking is correct that a temperature [which is denominated in Kelvin] is neither a forcing [denominated in Watts per square meter] nor a feedback [a consequential forcing denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of the temperature that induced it. If Ms Hawking does not believe that temperatures have consequences, she should take that matter up with climatology generally, not with me.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 23, 2018 5:23 am

We realized, by sweating the math, that the emission temperature must induce a feedback response (an enhancement of the original temperature).

So in a system, just the temperature causes the temperature to rise. Where does the energy come from?

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 10:56 am

I do urge Ms Hawking to read ch. 3 of Bode (1945), the textbook that numerous climatological authorities cite when considering the applicability of feedback theory to climate. If she will do as I did, and work carefully through the equations until she understands the derivation of the zero-dimensional model, she will appreciate more easily that a temperature is neither a feedback nor a forcing.
One should start by considering the units in which these phenomena are counted. Temperature is in Kelvin, because (among other things) the fundamental equation of radiative transfer does not work correctly unless units of absolute temperature are used. Radiative forcings, such as the insolation from the Sun or variations therein, or the forcing from the presence of non-condensing greenhouse gases, are radiative flux densities denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin. To convert a forcing to a reference temperature or temperature change before accounting for feedback, one takes the product of the radiative forcing and the Planck sensitivity parameter (the latter being denominated in Kelvin per Watt per square meter: see e.g. Roe, 2009; Bony et al., 2006, appendix A).
What, then, is a feedback, and how is it denominated? A temperature feedback, denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of the feedback-inducing temperature, is a knock-on or additional forcing that arises simply because a temperature and one or more feedback mechanisms are present
Therefore, if Ms Hawking would prefer not to denominate temperature feedbacks as everyone in climatology denominates them, she may care to take the matter up with the IPCC or with the authors of the numerous papers in which it is made explicit that a temperature feedback is a feedback that arises in response to a temperature.

Bernie Hutchins
March 22, 2018 7:27 pm

Monckton of Brenchley said March 22, 2018 at 3:59 pm
“Mr Hutchins asks for a picture of the circuits for the test rigs made by one of us and by a government laboratory. He will have to wait for the peer-reviewed paper.”
No, I asked ONLY for the one you did “in house”. I remind Mr. Monckton that I, and a half-dozen other engineers pointed out to him that he did not understand the “f” feedback variable in his “Feet of Clay” postings from a year and a half ago.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/08/27/feet-of-clay-the-official-errors-that-exaggerated-global-warming/
which included a trivial diagram of mine (a test-rig)
http://electronotes.netfirms.com/EN219Fig6.bmp
showing he was wrong about f having to be less that about 1/10. (In fact, f can approach +1; it is 2/3 in Fig. 6.) This is rather trivial. Monckton, having intruded into an arena (EE circuit design) where he had no training, insisted that we were wrong – – and that we should wait for him to comment on feedback before criticizing him (he already had commented, extensively, and was totally WRONG). Two more episodes of Feet of Clay followed and still only further (frankly rude) admonishments to wait for Parts 4 and 5. That was Sept of 2016 and no more was posted. I assumed that he had been more privately told he was wrong and just never got around to apologizing.
So I have no confidence in getting anywhere. I shall be happy, however, to look at the circuit, and reply ONLY to him, if he sends the diagram to Hutchins [at] ece.cornell.edu.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 22, 2018 7:45 pm

As I have said, Mr Hutchins will have to wait for the peer-reviewed paper, especially as he has seen fit to sneer at our supposed lack of evidence of approved Socialist training in network analysis and feedback amplifier design, Our circuit was drawn up and built by an electronics engineer who knew what he was doing, and the circuit eventually constructed for us by a government laboratory was along similar lines. The circuits seemed to us and to our pre-submission reviewers, one of whom is the world’s ranking expert on the application of feedback mathematics to climate, to be efficacious.
Also, we have to be careful how much of our hand we reveal before publication.
As to the “feet of clay” series, owing to the sneering tone of too many of the comments I set it aside once the error of feedback method had been identified and demonstrated both theoretically, empirically and experimentally. And I recruited not one but two practising electronic engineers as well as a professor of applied control theory, to say nothing of the government laboratory, to ensure that we had not misunderstood the relevant feedback mathematics.
If the paper passes peer review, the supplementary matter will contain the circuit diagram for the circuit designed and constructed by the government laboratory.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 22, 2018 7:54 pm

Wow – just saw Monckton of Brenchley March 22, 2018 at 6:47 pm
In response to Stephanie Hawking,….in the comment above mine.
He remarks there that a gain of 1 with a positive feedback of 0.1 amplifies 255 to 283 according to his govt. lab. Of course it does! Take my Fig. 6 circuit and make the (3/2)R resistor 10R and that’s what you get. Parts cost: under $1 total. Time, probably 15 minutes. I wonder how much he paid the government lab.
What am I missing?

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 22, 2018 8:21 pm

What Mr Hutchins is missing is the fact that in climatology it has hitherto been universally believed that in the absence of a direct gain and even in the presence of a feedback fraction, an input signal would not be amplified but would be equal to the output signal.
Our chief purpose in building a test rig and then in getting a government laboratory to do the same was to reveal to climatologists that the emission temperature, the input signal in the climate, induces a feedback response.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 22, 2018 8:51 pm

Did you really ask: “Build us a feedback-loop circuit and feed in an input signal of 255 K, a direct-gain factor of unity….., and a feedback fraction of 0.1.” …… ….. They built the rig, fed in the numbers, and the output signal, or equilibrium temperature, was 283 K.
That’s what you said.
That is: 283 = 255/(1-0.1) —your eqn (1), or my $0.81
Unremarkable. If you mean more than this, supply a flow-graph/circuit. You already published a DISCUSSION here on WUWT.
By the way, do you still believe f can’t approach +1?

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 23, 2018 3:47 am

Monckton of Brenchley March 22, 2018 at 8:21 pm
What Mr Hutchins is missing is the fact that in climatology it has hitherto been universally believed that in the absence of a direct gain and even in the presence of a feedback fraction, an input signal would not be amplified but would be equal to the output signal.

Try running your circuit when the power supply voltage equals your input voltage what happens then? I note that you’ve been avoiding addressing this point so far.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 23, 2018 4:55 am

In response to “Phil.”, the circuit was run to obtain the answers that were relevant to our research. If he wishes to commission his own government la to carry out experiments of this kind, he can no doubt lecture them on how they should do their job. If he wants to construct a circuit that does things his way, he can do so.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 23, 2018 5:00 am

In response to Mr Hutchins, we specified what the circuit should be able to do, we specified 23 sets of three inputs, and the laboratory in due course reported. Yes, the circuit was simple, since the zero-dimensional model that it was representing is simple. Yes, the answers were foreseeable, and in each instance foreseen, to the nearest tenth of a Kelvin. No, it was not strictly necessary to do the experiments, because the feedback theory is entirely clear: an input signal, eve if unamplified, will induce a feedback response in the presence of a non-zero feedback fraction. We did the experiments because we knew that most climatologists would be utterly baffled by the notion that an unamplified input signal, such as emission temperature, is capable of inducing a feedback response.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 23, 2018 10:01 am

Monckton of Brenchley March 23, 2018 at 4:55 am
In response to “Phil.”, the circuit was run to obtain the answers that were relevant to our research. If he wishes to commission his own government la to carry out experiments of this kind, he can no doubt lecture them on how they should do their job. If he wants to construct a circuit that does things his way, he can do so.

I’ve done it it’s no problem. The problem is your inadequate description of the circuit, as several others have asked for. As I asked you before, what voltage did you use to power the circuit, because that will determine whether there is gain? Since you’re trying to model a real phenomenon the power source has significance too, what parameter in the real world does it model? Keeping your model secret is not science (it may have been in the middle ages, but not now).

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 23, 2018 1:18 pm

Thanks Phil at 10:01 AM
I think that you and I are (grudgingly!) familiar with the terms “open-loop gain”, “closed loop gain”, “feedback gain”, and “loop gain”. [ I am unfamiliar with what Mr. Monckton means by “direct gain”. Is this the open-loop gain usually denoted A? If so, does the “absence of a direct gain” mean A=1? Like a gain of 1 is not a gain! I guess that’s what he means. A picture would serve well here as you say. ]
If you are at all like me, I AVOID using all these terms, (let alone, their relationships), and instead just work out the input/output relationship starting with a flow-graph diagram or actual circuit. This is how we avoid errors. To not start with a proper flow graph is a discourtesy at best and an invitation to excuse any resulting confusion.
Bernie

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 24, 2018 10:47 am

In response to those who want us to publish our circuit diagrams, we shall publish them when they have been peer reviewed. We are fully aware of the shock that our result will cause if it be found to be in substance correct (and, from the sheer number of comments here, both sides are beginning to apprehend that it may be correct). that is why we decided to verify the traditional feedback theory on which we had relied by building some circuits (simple, but not as simple as some might imagine) to verify that – for instance – in a dynamical system in which feedback processes are present any signal, including the input signal, will induce a feedback even if the direct amplifier gain factor is set to unity (i.e., no amplifier gain, because no non-condensing greenhouse gases).
Neither we nor the government laboratory were at all surprised when the lab confirmed our theoretically-derived values of the output signal (i.e., equilibrium temperature) to the nearest tenth of a Kelvin. But climatologists are astonished. They can’t believe it. And they are trying to state, contrary to a large and well established body of climatological literature, that the feedback math originally developed for electronic circuits is somehow inapplicable to the climate after all. But, in that event, there is no theoretical basis for assuming or deriving any feedback response in the climate object.

blueice2hotsea
March 22, 2018 8:04 pm

Solar irradiance is a radiative energy input which yields temperature (kinetic energy) as output. Temperature feedback is the rerouting of that KE output back into the surface as input, e.g. back-conduction of atmospheric kinetic energy to the surface it originally conducted from, analogous to back-radiation.
Qualitatively this makes sense to me and I do not understand the objections. What am I missing?

Reply to  blueice2hotsea
March 22, 2018 8:26 pm

I think that whgat bklueice is missing is the shock that climatology is undergoing as it begins to grasp how strikingly elementary is the error it has made. Of course emission temperature induces a feedback response, but climatologists on all sides of the debate simply can’t believe they’ve all been so wrong for so long.
The conditions precedent to the operation of temperature feedback are the presence of feedback mechanisms (e.g. water vapor feedback, albedo feedback, cloud feedback, lapse-rate feedback) and the presence of a temperature. That is why emission temperature induces a large feedback.

pwl
March 22, 2018 8:33 pm

“In the end, the central question for climatology that arises from our result is this: By what process, mechanism or magic do the temperature feedbacks in the climate system know that they should not operate in the presence of the Earth’s emission temperature but that they should operate the moment that temperature grows a little owing to the presence of greenhouse gases?” – Monckton of Brenchley, https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/03/19/global-warming-on-trial-and-the-elementary-error-of-physics-that-caused-the-global-warming-scare/#comment-2771565.
Playing the devils advocate Christopher it’s easy to see someone respond to the above by saying:
1) The Earth’s emission temperature along assumes no atmosphere so what feedbacks would there be when it’s a black body in space? What temperature feedbacks if any are present without an atmosphere?
2) When you add an atmosphere then new feedbacks related to the existence of the atmosphere begin to impact the temperature and cause it to increase. Why would this not eliminate the need to include the Earth’s emission temperatures in the AGW feed back equations?
Related to other comments above:
3) Responding to a comment above, what prevents the feedbacks from becoming an infinite progression of out of control feedbacks? Please explain your understanding and where that possibility (and an Ig Nobel Prize as the commentor suggested) of runaway feedbacks is eliminated by the math? How many times do these feedbacks loop causing additional increases, does it diminish and if so by how much each time?
An unrelated but required question that seems to be ignored most of the time:
4) There is hard science that can’t be ignored yet is by almost everyone, it’s like they want to turn Gravity off. The Ideal Gas Law shows that as the pressure of a column of gas increases with the lowering altitude the temperature goes up. This effect causes most of the warming on Venus and Jupiter (which emits more heat than energy it gets from the sun apparently) yet the composition of these two atmospheres is quite different. Venus has a thick atmosphere of ~95% co2 and is hot while Mars has a thin atmosphere yet has a similar amount of co2 as well but it’s not hot. The reason: the ideal gas law, the atmospheric pressure determines the temperature of the planet’s atmosphere not the atmospheric composition. Jupiter is hot because of high pressure, as is Venus, but why not Earth? Mars is of course cold because of low pressure even though it has a similar amount of co2 as Venus percentage wise. At the sea level pressure of Earth which is high up in Venus’s atmosphere it’s the same temperature as Earth at sea level or close enough. Why is the ideal gas law ignored, it can’t just be turned off by climate scientists, just like they can’t turn off Gravity.

Reply to  pwl
March 23, 2018 5:14 am

In response to “PWL”:
1. It is not correct to state that the emission temperature implies no atmosphere. It implies an atmosphere, but with no non-condensing geenhouse gases. The feedback mechanisms, therefore, are present, and will operate in the presence of the emission temperature.
2. This point needs no answer, since it is founded upon the error in 1.
3. The curve of equuilibrium sensitivities in response to various feedback values is shown in the head posting. The feedback response only causes runaway feedback where the feedback fraction approaches unity, at the singularity in the rectangular-hyperboic response curve. Given our result, however, there is no danger that feedback fractions in the climate will come anywhere close to unity.
4. The notion that one may derive the surface temperature of a planetary body solely from the atmospheric pressure and density says nothing more than that the ideal-gas law works. However, the pressure and density are to some extent functions of the atmospheric burden of greenhouse gases. Alter that burden and you alter the pressure and density, not least by varying the mean atmospheric temperature. One cannot, therefore, assume that the greenhouse effect does not exist. it does, because it can be measured both in the laboratory and in the astmosphere, though it is difficult to quantify the extent to which it will warm the atmosphere.
None of these four points, therefore, vitiates our result.

Michael Gronemeyer
Reply to  pwl
March 23, 2018 8:20 am

Pressure and temperature in a gas increase when a gas is compressed with work (air pump). When no further work or energy is plugged into the gas, it cools through heat flow or radiant flux into the environment until equilibrium with the environment is achieved. Without internal energy sources and solar radiation, Jupiter would cool down to 0K due to radiation regardless of the pressure.

Reply to  Michael Gronemeyer
March 23, 2018 9:08 am

In the equation PV=nRT, pressure is a major input; it’s not there simply to make the gas laws valid. We can see how pressure affects temperature through the dry lapse rate. Climate scientists seem to claim that we count down from the emissions height to get the surface temperature, and if we have a higher emissions height then we have a higher surface temperature because we count down from higher up. I’m sorry, but this looks a heck of a lot like hand-waving. I wonder if emissions height matters much at all: let 255K radiate from wherever it wants to. Near the surface the atmosphere is heated primarily by conduction and to find out how the atmosphere cools as it rises we use the lapse rate, which has no term for any greenhouse effect, and using the lapse rate we see how the atmosphere cools according to pressure, not according to GHG content. The wet lapse rate takes account of the unique properties of water but still there is no term for “back-radiation.”
I find the whole idea of “counting down” confusing. Doesn’t this count-down happen because there’s a distortion of the atmospheric temperature profile that raises the emissions height? And where has this been measured? Or is this counting down due solely to CO2 content? If so, then have we just thrown the idea of back-radiation out, and we depend instead on emissions height?
Where on earth has anyone measured the greenhouse effect in the laboratory? They have not. They’ve measured absorption and emission of LWIR, but they have not measured how said absorption and emission causes a heating of the atmosphere below it. Nahle has demonstrated that this supposed, assumed, and conjectured mechanism does not exist. I would think that the first thing anyone would do is replicate the experiment and prove that it does.

March 23, 2018 12:48 pm

Congratulations to everyone on this excellent thread. For those who find 800+ comments a bit much to plough through I’ve made a “best of” compilation of what I think is the essential argument and added comments at
https://cliscep.com/2018/03/23/climate-debate-begins-sceptic-v-sceptic/

Reply to  Geoff Chambers
March 24, 2018 10:40 am

I am most grateful to Mr Chambers for having taken an interest in our research. Of course, there is nothing new in skeptics debating skeptics. That’s what skeptics do: for, as al-Haytham said, one should be no less skeptical of one’s own result – and, for that matter, of one’s own team’s result – than of the results of others.
We were very much expecting that skeptics would, at first, be among our critics: for the error we say we have exposed has been around for a long time, and no one (including us) will be at all happy that it was not noticed long before now.

Reply to  Geoff Chambers
March 25, 2018 10:23 am

Chambers
I think your summary suffers from confirmation bias.
Monckton has presented an interesting theory.
Whether it is true, or not, remains to be seen —
— we have not seen the full, final white paper
with all the data and details.
It would be unusual for one person
to discover the “truth” about climate change,
or any other scientific subject,
but that has happened in the past.
In his favor, Monckton seems to have
good intentions, is not biased by the
consensus, weathers their
character attacks well,
and presents a conclusion
that seems reasonable.
It’s actually hard to believe no one
had previously said the same thing.
The IPCC’s never-changing, since 1979,
+3 degrees C. +/- 1.5 degrees C.
was never based on real science —
just a bizarre wild guess water vapor
positive feedback theory … that apparently
never applied during the billions of years
when Earth had more CO2 in the air than today !
I hope Monckton is right.
I hope the California judge understands him.
I hope Monckton is able to present his material
in a way that a California judge will understand !
The opening sentence of this article,
with a double negative,
makes me worry about
the quality of communication skills:
“This will be a long posting,
but it will not be found uninteresting.”
When the article here becomes mainly math,
rather than prose, there ought to be a simple
explanation (no numbers) first, followed
by the math.
Just because the judge got an engineering
degree a long time ago, DOES NOT MEAN
he will be able to breeze through the math quickly,
and understand everything.
A good theory can be explained in simple
language, by a person who understands it well
— the actual math / equations can follow,
in an appendix or two.
The global warmunists keep their message
very simple, choosing their words very carefully,
because they are expert communicators,
who know next to nothing about real science
— so don’t knock the importance of simple,
straightforward communication, especially
of complex subjects.
I believe a better summary of the many comments
would be: Monckton has presented an interesting theory
that makes more sense than what the IPCC
has been saying since 1979:
“Since the 8 K warming from the presence of greenhouse gases
induces a feedback response, so does the 255 K emission
temperature that prevailed (assuming today’s albedo)
even before there were any greenhouse gases.”
.
.
.
Modern climate “science”
that make me laugh:
— Natural climate change suddenly
ended in 1940;
— Aerosols suddenly took over
in 1940, as “climate controller”,
then suddenly fell out of the air in 1975.
— The 60+ “explanations” for the
2000 to 2015 flat average temperature trend
(the hiatus).
— And now the water vapor positive feedback
theory — invented out of thin air — that
apparently did not exist for 4.5 billion years,
then suddenly came to life
when humans began adding
CO2 to the atmosphere.
In today’s world,
“climate science” is an oxymoron.
Brave men like Monckton take a lot of flak,
simply because they are close to the target
— the truth about climate change
… which I still believe is “We don’t know”
… but we do know, probably with 95% confidence,
that the IPCC consensus theory is
a big pile of steaming farm animal
digestive waste products.
My climate change blog
for people with common sense,
meaning leftists must stay away:
http://www.elOnionBloggle.Blogspot.com

March 23, 2018 3:25 pm

So many nay sayers!
It seems so simple to me now it has been pointed out:
To argue that there is no temperature feedback is to argue with the authors of IPCC reports and ‘tipping points’.
To argue that ‘it can work this way, whats powering your circuit’ – well
The sun powers the complete system, sw coming in lw going out.
Assuming lukewarming’ism is correct, we can experimentally think of changing the suns output, changing the CO2 concentration or changing water vapor concentration.
I think most lukewarmers will agree that changing the concentration of CO2 will change the earths surface temperature.
The same happen if the suns output changed.
Christopher Moncktons work in the head post shows that as the temperature changes, from what ever reason, CO2 or sun, it will have an effect on the resultant overall temperature.
I do not understand how people can deny the last paragraph.
Therefore if the sun or CO2 level was reduced, the temperature will fall, which leads on to CBs conclusions.
To those who say how can you power the ‘amplifier’ providing the feedback if you only have a temperature of 255.4 input to the amplifier!!!!
Sorry, this is a simulation of what happens.
The sun powers the ‘amplifier’. The sun powers the climate.
A vast amount of energy streams from the sun every day.
After a variety of atmospheric reactions, we are left with energy in, energy out, and a surface temperature.
Why do people fight the obvious?
I can understand and have sympathy for those who have been wedded to an in correct idea for decades, but eventually, simple logic will win out.
I am sorry if peoples power of explanation can not reach everyone now, but eventually they will.
Increasing CO2, increases theoretical temperature.
Increasing the suns output, increases the temperature.
Removing the CO2, reduces the temperature but leaves the suns effect on water vapor intact.
Here lies the issue.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Steve Richards
March 23, 2018 3:59 pm

It seems from the admission of Monckton of Brenchley March 23, 2018 at 5:00 am, and the suspicions of some of us here, that Monckton’s “test rig” is not a simulation, or anything but an “analog computer” that is asTRIVIAL as the arithmetic it does. The one I used (from 2016) did this and cost $0.83 for two op-amps and five resistors.
http://electronotes.netfirms.com/EN219Fig6.bmp
He has refused to provide the circuit he used “in house” or that was used in the “government lab.” I’ll bet a government lab charges an arm and a leg. No wonder he does not want to show it.
Oh – I could be wrong. He could easily just post the diagram.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 23, 2018 4:05 pm

“It seems from the admission of Monckton of Brenchley March 23, 2018 at 5:00 am, and the suspicions of some of us here, that Monckton’s “test rig” is not a simulation, or anything but an “analog computer” that is as TRIVIAL as the arithmetic it does”
Indeed so, and the simulation can’t make the arithmetic right. The maths is wrong. Building a circuit is pointless. It can only verify that the circuit works as planned. Circuit analysis is a mature science – we don’t need that demonstration. It isn’t telling us anything about the atmosphere.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 24, 2018 10:34 am

Mr Stokes and Mr Hutchins will have to wait for publication of our paper before we release the circuit diagrams. They are under peer review at present. As to whether the test circuits were necessary, they would not have been necessary if we had thought that climatologists would accept the fact, from mainstream feedback theory, that even an unamplified input signal induces a feedback response, provided that feedback processes are present in the dynamical system under study.
And, if Mr Stokes thinks that the mathematics of feedback in electronic circuits is materially different, mutatis mutandis, than the mathematics of feedback in the climate, he should perhaps write to NASA to ask them to correct James Hansen’s 1984 paper, and invite the dozens of others who have cited Bode and who have used the zero-dimensional model to mend their ways. But don’t take it out on me. All of this, save only for the error we have identified, is as much mainstream climate science as it is mainstream feedback theory.

Reply to  Steve Richards
March 24, 2018 10:37 am

I am most grateful to Steve Richards for his admirably clear presentation of the case we are making in the head posting. Removing the non-condensing greenhouse gases, including CO2, reduces the temperature to the emission value, but the feedback mechanisms, such as the water vapor feedback, are still present: and, since a feedback is denominated in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of any temperature that is present, the emission temperature will induce a feedback response.

March 23, 2018 4:06 pm

Mr Monckton seems confused.
The 255K is derived by assuming NO atmosphere whatsoever. It is the avg. surface temperature of a green-blue (“grey”) body at a given distance from the sun.
288K is the average surface temperature that includes ALL atmospheric gases.
It is illegitimate to claim that 255K would be our temperature without GHGs but with the rest of our atmospheric gases.
You can’t just arbitrarily plug the gap between an apple (no atmosphere) and an orange (10km thick atmosphere with 99% non-GHG, 1% GHG) and claim GHGs did it because they are IR absorbing gases. Maxwell would rollover in his grave. He didn’t neglect the pressure forcing and convection mediated conduction – which explains the majority of our atmospheric temperature gradient.
Mr Monckton, refering to cranks who don’t know what they’re talking about does not lend a theory credibility.
I hope you can stop neglecting the available science that was around before climate cranks sabotaged it.
But please continue on your legal campaign.
All the best. -Zoe P

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 23, 2018 6:16 pm

I think we’ve heard the GHG paradigm for so long that we’ve become hypnotized by it. I also think that since we walk around all the time with 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure around us, it seems that we can brush it off as trivial. But 14.7 psi can crush a railroad tanker car with a partial vacuum inside; it’s not at all trivial. This pressure is ultimately due to gravity.
The GHG paradigm is blinding us to the obvious.

Frank
Reply to  Don132
March 23, 2018 10:11 pm

Don132: Temperature is internal energy, but pressure (Force/area) is not energy. You need to multiply pressure times volume change (area*distance moved for a cylinder with a piston, PdV) to get energy/work (Force*distance). So it is blindingly obvious that pressure alone doesn’t create temperature. Hope this helps. Paying attention to units used with quantities (dimensional analysis) can be extremely useful.
4.5 billion years ago, as the Earth formed as gases and other material “fell” to make our planet, there was heating – enough to melt everything an produce a oblate sphere. However, that heat was radiated away long ago since the sun didn’t provide as much energy as was being lost. Most likely our original atmosphere was blown away when fusion began on the sun, and the present atmosphere was produced by volcanic eruptions (and then photosynthetic bacteria to converted carbon dioxide to oxygen). In that case, our current atmosphere didn’t fall (converting potential energy to kinetic energy). It rose, expanded under greatly reduced pressure, and cooled.

Reply to  Don132
March 24, 2018 4:37 am

No one claims that pressure by itself creates temperature.
The temperature of an individual molecule is its internal energy. By contrast, the temperature of a parcel of gas, speaking broadly, is internal energy (of the molecules) x density. The air at the surface is warmer than the air at 10 hPa largely because the air is much denser at the surface; this would be true even if the individual molecules of N and O at 10 hPa had the very same internal energy as they did at the surface. The density at the surface is caused by pressure.
Pressure matters.

Reply to  Don132
March 25, 2018 5:06 am

In answer to Don132, the difficulty inherent in the Nikolov/Zeller approach is that it constitutes an instance of the ancient logical fallacy of petitio principii, or circular reasoning. The ideal-gas law allows us to determine the surface temperature of a planetary body provided that we know the density and pressure of the atmospheric medium. However, the density and pressure of that medium are affected by its temperature, which is in turn affected by various factors, including the extent to which greenhouse gases are present. Nikolov and Zeller’s result, therefore, tells us no more than that the ideal-gas law works. It tells us nothing at all about the extent to which CO2 and other greenhouse gases do or do not warm the atmosphere.

Reply to  Don132
March 25, 2018 7:05 am

Monckton of Brenchley March 25, 2018 at 5:06 am
You are correct regarding circular reasoning of Nikolov/Zeller– or it might only appear to be circular reasoning. I say this because I think we automatically discount Nikolov/Zeller because what they say depends upon adiabatic auto-compression, and we all know this is fool’s gold.
Or is it? Might I suggest that “adiabatic auto-compression” is a somewhat misleading term for what happens when a parcel of atmosphere is made denser (contracts) by pressure, and being made denser therefore contains more molecules that have translational kinetic energy per set volume of atmosphere (say one cubic meter) which, when averaged together for that volume, constitutes what we measure as “temperature”?
One cubic meter of atmosphere at 1000 hPa must be denser than one at 900 hPa. The “parcel” (which in this case refers to a set volume of one cubic meter) at 1000 hPa must contain more molecules than a parcel at 900 hPa, and each molecule we assume has essentially the same translational energy as it did at 900 hPa (why/how would it change? And would this change be significant?) The average translational energy of the parcel must go up if it contains more molecules with the same translational energy as before; the amount of translational energy is what our thermometer measures. Therefore, atmospheric pressure induces a temperature change in the gas, but not because any work was done. Hence, “adiabatic auto-compression.”
So it seems that N/K are proposing a mechanism that has some gravity. In fact this compression of the atmosphere could very well account for a large part of the “greenhouse effect.” The molecules do not heat up; the atmosphere warms up by virtue of having more molecules per volume. And once again I’ll point out that the pressure (compression) at earth’s surface is not trivial.
But aside from that, the actual alleged warming caused by back-radiation has never been measured. Those who hold that back-radiation warms the atmosphere need to pony-up an experiment to prove it. Not a model, not a theory, not a measurement of radiation, but an actual measurement of the alleged temperature change. I have a very hard time believing that this experiment can’t be done or isn’t needed.
So I think we need to sort N/Z out and not be so dismissive. We could start by testing our own assumption of the back-radiation effect; if this does indeed turn out to be a phantom, then I think we can say that N/Z aren’t so prone to circular reasoning after all.

Reply to  Don132
March 25, 2018 10:17 am

In reply to Don132, in the head posting I have adopted the simplifying assumption, for the sake of argument, that all of official climatology is correct except where I can prove that it is incorrect. The head posting deals with a single error of feedback method. If our result is correct – and nothing in this thread so far has legitimately suggested otherwise – then one need not enquire further whether Nikolov and Zeller are right.
However, my reading of their papers is that they present the ideal-gas law as though it were what they call a “new paradigm”, when all that they are really demonstrating with their planetary-body comparisons is that it works.
This is where a Classical education is helpful. We are taught to try to avoid circular reasoning. Since it is a matter of fact that the density and pressure of the atmospheric medium are dependent upon – inter alia – the presence and concentration of greenhouse gases, the fact that one can derive the surface temperature of a planetary body from density and pressure alone cannot tell us anything about the extent to which the presence of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has or has not influenced that temperature.
It is really as simple as that.

Reply to  Don132
March 25, 2018 11:46 am

Monckton of Brenchley March 25, 2018 at 10:17 am
In reply to Lord Monckton– I’m assuming that it’s legitimate to address you as such even though there are legal squabbles over the title– you’re to be commended for your extensive replies to nearly everyone. Thank you for that! And you’re absolutely right that this side argument over GHGs is just that in the context of your post. I wish you success.
Nevertheless, you say, “Since it is a matter of fact that the density and pressure of the atmospheric medium are dependent upon – inter alia – the presence and concentration of greenhouse gases… . ” But might I point out that this itself is a form of circular reasoning? It has not been established that greenhouse gases do anything to the temperature of an atmosphere and we seem to be assuming that this is true in order to prove that those who disagree with the GHG theory are wrong, and this is why I keep circling around to what I supposed was the foundation of science: do an experiment to test the hypothesis. I know what the physics predicts. What I don’t know is that this has actually been tested; I find that astonishing.
Connolly and Connolly have demonstrated that the atmospheric temperature profile isn’t distorted according to what infrared cooling models predict. Someone should take the same balloon data the Connollys used– data that is freely available as I understand– and show that the atmospheric profile is indeed distorted as predicted. That is one way to test/prove the GHG proposition. Carefully replicating the Wood/Pratt/Nahle/Spencer experiment would be another, and no doubt creative minds can come up with other experiments.
Stop assuming and start proving is what I say to the GHG proponents. It really is as simple as that.

Reply to  Don132
March 25, 2018 12:05 pm

Lord Monckton,
Luckily density and pressure can be measured independantly.
We can also use simultaneous equations for dependant variables.
I don’t know why you bought into the false “circular reasoning” argument.
Don’t you know that Temperature of gases only exists because of Kinetic Theory?
Nay, the Ideal Gas Law works frontwards and backwards. Every variable can be computed by knowing the rest. And the rest are independantly measured. -Z

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 24, 2018 10:28 am

Zoe Phin is confused. She imagines that with an atmosphere but without non-condensing greenhouse gases the Earth’s surface temperature would be something other than 255 K, but she is careful not to say what.
So let us suppose, first, that she imagines that with an atmosphere but without non-condensing greenhouse gases the Earth’s surface temperature would be less than 255 K. In that event, a negative feedback would be in operation, and there would be little reason to suppose that the negative feedback would become positive solely because of the introduction of the non-condensing greenhouse gases. On this scenario, therefore, the feedback fraction is negative, making equilibrium sensitivity smaller than reference sensitivity and making our case for us a fortiori.
Then let us suppose that she imagines that with an atmosphere but without non-condensing greenhouse gases the Earth’s surface temperature would be more than 255 K. In that event, a positive feedback response to emission temperature would be present, exactly as the head posting suggests.
Anyway, let her say what she thinks the surface temperature would be if today’s insolation and albedo were to be retained but all the non-condensing greenhouse gases were removed.
One question we examined was whether, in the absence of non-condensing greenhouse gases or of feedbacks, the emission temperature would be greater than 255 K owing to the non-uniform latitudinal distribution of insolation and consequently of surface temperature. Using the little-known but useful fact of spherical-surface geometry that equialtitudinal spherical frusta are zonally equiareal, we were able to derive the mean expected dayside temperature. We are still working on the nightside temperature, which is more complex. Preliminary indications, however, are that after allowing for latitudinal non-uniformity the actual emission temperature is somewhere between 263 and 274 K, again with the effect of greatly reducing the difference between emission temperature and natural temperature in 1850 and, therefore, reducing pre-industrial equilibrium sensitivities.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 11:51 am

Are you saying that Earth without an atmosphere and an Earth with a 10km atmosphere but no GHGs would both be 255K? You saying atmosphere thickness doesn’t matter?
Are you saying meat can’t be cooked without spices? You think it’s the spices that makes the meat hotter? Wow.
Seems like Lord Monckton doesn’t understand convection mediated conduction.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 12:01 pm

I’m not interested in lowered albedo due to lack of atmosphere. That is a legitimate but side issue. I’m interested in adiabatic auto-compression.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 4:43 am

In response to Ms Phin, I am allowing her to have her cake and eat it. As I have demonstrated in my earlier reply to her, it matters not whether the actual emission temperature in the presence of a thermally-transparent atmosphere is warmer or colder than 255 K: either way, the implication is that equilibrium sensitivity will be less than is currently imagined. Perhaps she would be kind enough to let me know what the emission temperature would be in the absence of any greenhouse gases but in the presence of an atmosphere, and why. Then I can refine my answer.
However, official climatology assumes, rightly or wrongly, that the diatomic nitrogen and oxygen that constitute nearly all of the atmosphere even in the presence of greenhouse gases possess no dipole moment and cannot, therefore, interact with either incoming or outgoing radiation in such a way as to generate heat by the kinetic energy of oscillation in any of the vibration modes. If Ms Phin’s knowledge of quantum physics leads her to suspect that official climatology is wrong in this, she should let the world of climatology and of optical physics know in the usual way by writing a learned paper about it. But don’t hold it against me.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 12:10 pm

Lord Monckton again forgets that the majority of warming in the troposphere results from solar-to-SURFACE gravity-aided driven convection/conduction.
The sun is a grill and gravity is a spatula.
I like my meat medium rare.

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 25, 2018 10:29 am

Zoe Phin sez:
“Mr Monckton, refering to cranks who don’t know what they’re talking about does not lend a theory credibility.”
My comment:
If they ARE cranks, who don’t know what they’re talking about,
then criticizing them increases Mr. Monckton’s credibility !

Reply to  Richard Greene
March 25, 2018 12:13 pm

Richard, but Monckton has accidently bought into some of their wrong arguments, and now using them against those who understand physics.

Stephanie Hawking
March 23, 2018 4:40 pm
Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 23, 2018 8:53 pm

Why does that surprise you?
Big Oil has given way more money to alarmists and it costs nothing for oil companies to agree . It’s simple economic cartel theory. If all yhe oil companies go along, the cost gets pushed to consumers – but only if all companies go along with regulation. Hence the Paris Climate Agreement is an Oil Cartel Agreement. Duh!
– Zoe P

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 10:16 am

Ms Hawking says the oil companies accept the IPCC “consensus”. The IPCC “consensus” proposition says nothing more than that recent warming is mostly manmade. However, Cook et al., 2013, demonstrated that only 64 papers out of 11,944 published in the 21 years 1991-2011, i.e. 0.3%, had explicitly stated in their abstracts that recent warming was mostly manmade. IPCC is supposed to reflect the scientific literature. In this respect, plainly, it does not.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 11:08 am

If you believe an IPCC report is not a review of the literature, the consensus of tens of thousands of climate scientists, endorsed by the Royal Society, National Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Physical Society, American Chemical Society, American Statistical Association etc etc etc, then you won’t be bothered by the fact the oil companies accept the IPCC reports. After all, they don’t differ from the conclusions of oil company scientists, who were well aware by the 70s that CO2 was going to be a problem. Indeed, that the companies knew yet financed campaigns of misinformation, is what this court case is about.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 4:59 am

What a true-believing totalitarian is Ms Hawking! How faithfully and unswervingly and unthinkingly she adheres to the Party Line! But let us be clear. The official “consensus” proposition, as defined by the Intergovernmental panel on climate change, is to the effect that more than 50% of the warming observed since approximately 1950 is manmade. That proposition is silent on whether global warming will be dangerous. And Cook et al. (2013) read the abstracts of 11,944 papers on climate and related topics published in the peer-reviewed learned journals of science over the 21 years 1991-2011 and listed every single paper in a datafile that became available online after several of us had badgered Cook to make it available. The comma-delimited file, at the end of each physical line (with one paper per line), ends with a comma followed by a number from 1 to 7 followed by a carriage return and a linefeed. I wrote a program to read down the entire file, byte by byte, and to identify how many data lines ended with “,1” followed by a carriage return and a linefeed. Why 1? Because that was the designation given by Cook et al. to every single paper that stated in its abstract that recent global warming was mostly manmade, or words to that effect.
When I ran the program I thought I had made a mistake in coding (even Homer nods). For the result was that Coke et al. had themselves marked only 64 papers, or 0.5% of the sample, as having stated explicitly that recent global warming was mostly manmade. Then I read all 64 of those papers. Only 41 of them, or 0.3% of the sample, actually said that recent global warming was mostly manmade.
So I don’t care how many scientific societies or IPCCs or suchlike totalitarian entities state that black is whit. I check. And I find that IPCC, although its duty is to reflect the scientific literature, has in this important respect flouted that obligation by stating that it is near-certain that recent warming was mostly manmade. The literature, as Cook et al.’s datafile makes quite explicit, simply does not support that contention. You can download the file yourself and write your own program to check that Coke et al. were not telling the truth when they reported that 0.3% consensus as 97.1%.
Besides, the Royal Society – to name but one – has a rule that it does not take a science or policy stance on any scientific question. You may wonder, therefore, whether an institution that thus breaks its own rule retains any credibility at all. If it wanted to break the rule because it genuinely regarded global warming as a threat to the planet, it would have solemnly gathered its Fellows, held a meeting to revise the rule and then issued a sober and accurate statement of the science. Instead, it flouted its own rule and made a statement that did not reflect the true scientific position.
What, then, is the difference between the totalitarian and the scientific approach? The totalitarian starts with a preconceived Party Line and, once the Party Line has been handed down to her, she ceases altogether to think or to check or to verify or to scrutinize. But I take the scientific approach. I check. And I find that in this as in many other matters the Party Line is demonstrably and objectively erroneous. I am not a totalitarian, so I have the freedom to think for myself. I once went along with the Party Line on climate, but then I checked, and then I changed my mind. As John Maynard Keynes used to say, “When the facts change, I change my opinions. What do you do, sir?”

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 10:40 am

“Stephanie Hawking”.
The 30 years of wrong average temperature predictions,
not one GCM model expecting a flat trend from
2000 to 2015, before the EL Nino began,
is strong evidence that the IPCC consensus
is wrong.
Wrong predictions = wrong climate change physics
used as a foundation for the models
— it’s that simple — but apparently over your head !
Science is not what is said or believed —
real science is about “proving theories”
with data … and even then the “proven theories”,
in time, may turn out to be
partly or completely wrong
because of the data quality,
or confusing correlation with causation,
or for many other reasons.
The history of science is one consensus
after another now in the dust bin of science
history.
After reading many of your comments here,
Ms (won’t use her real name) Hawking,
I am trying to decide whether you are
annoying, a nit-wit, or an annoying nit-wit.
(nit-wit is spelled with an apostrophe
only to avoid certain moderation)
I’ll get back to you when I decide.
You posts are generally
“The consensus is right”,
while the main purpose of this website
is to challenge the climate change consensus,
making me wonder what you think you are
adding here with your comments?

March 23, 2018 4:42 pm

Quite so Nick. As you recall, I only posted that in Sept of 2016 to show that, contrary to Monckton’s claims, that the positive feedback could be greater than 0.1 (It’s 2/3 in Fig. 6).

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 23, 2018 7:58 pm

A magician performing on a cruise ship is becoming more and more frustrated with a parrot which keeps giving the game away by squawking, “He’s hidden it behind …” etc etc.
One day the ship hits an iceberg, and as luck would have it the magician and the parrot end up on the same piece of flotsam. The parrot eyes the magician suspiciously, then demands angrily, “Okay, I give up, where have you hidden the ship.”
Will the day come when Lord Monckton’s flock realise the ship is long gone?

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 5:05 am

Referring to Icebergs is not helpful to your argument.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 10:13 am

No discernible scientific point is made in Ms Hawking’s comment. One appreciates that the devotees of the global-warming cargo cult are upset to find that the supposedly “settled” science in which they had too credulously put their faith was embarrassingly and materially in error: but they will not convince anyone that we are wrong by continuing to recite their mantras.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 12:35 pm

No discernible scientific point is made in Ms Hawking’s comment. One appreciates that the devotees of the global-warming cargo cult are upset to find that the supposedly “settled” science in which they had too credulously put their faith was embarrassingly and materially in error: but they will not convince anyone that we are wrong by continuing to recite their mantras.

At least my comment was original and funny and made a point about your fysiks. Yours is just a repeat of the same old tired nonsense about cargo cults, credulity, faith, mantras etc etc, with nary a point in sight, scientific or otherwise.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 5:02 am

Perhaps Ms Hawking would be better of sticking to the invective she incorporates into just about every comment. She is better at that than at science. Meanwhile, she has yet to rpovide an answer to the simple question I have addressed to her and to many other commenters here: given that modeling shows there is a feedback response to emission temperature, given that theory requires it, given that test rigs built to test that theory demonstrate it, on what rational basis – if any – does she reject the scientific fact that the conditions precedent to a feedback response are the presence of a temperature and the presence of at least one feedback mechanism, and that those conditions subsist in a climate without non-condensing greenhouse gases?

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 10:43 am

“Hawking”
Let me add really bad comedian
as a good description,
of you.

Dr. Strangelove
March 23, 2018 7:29 pm

Dr. Roy Spencer has peer reviewed “The Magic of the 24K Temperature Feedback” by The Lord (Monckton) of the (Brenchley) Rings
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2018/03/climate-f-words/#commentscomment image

Reply to  Dr. Strangelove
March 25, 2018 1:37 pm

+10

BobG
March 23, 2018 11:26 pm

It is interesting to read the comments on Dr. Spencer’s blog about Monckton’s paper. Most of those who are commenting still are unable to understand the paper! Frank writes, ‘Lord Monckton arrives at a very low feedback (f) ONLY by considering the warming of a planet without GHGs (at around 255 K) to a pre-industrial planet (287). The assuming that emission of radiation is linear over this wide a range of temperature is invalid. Feedback of the first kind (lambda_0) and feedback of the second kind (lambda_1) are not constants over this period, so the feedback factor f can not be constant either.”
The misunderstandings seem to be about whether feedback is linear within a wide range of temperatures and if that makes a difference.
Consider a system with positive feedback
The input is the emissions temperature TE (255.4K)
The output is the natural temperature TN (= 287.6 K) in 1850
Climate scientists determined that non-condensing Greenhouse gases (CO2, Methane and the like) in 1850 caused about 8K of warming.
The remaining 24 K to get to 287.6K were believed to be caused by condensing greenhouse gas (water vapor).
Feedback circuit 1:
(1) Input is (255.4K + 8K) 263.4K —> (X) ——–> OUTPUT TN = 287.6K Output
+/|\ |
| \|/
< —-Feedback factor (f) (X) ——–> OUTPUT TN = 32K -> (Add 32K to 255K TE) = 287.6K
+/|\ |
| \|/
< —-Feedback factor (f) <—–
In the second feedback circuit, the resultant feedback factor is 1 – (8K/32K) = 0.75
In feedback circuit 1, if additional greenhouse gas (GHG) is added to the atmosphere, the warming from them is added to the total input of 263.4K (255.4K + 8K).
In (2), if additional GHG is added to the atmosphere, it gets added to the 8K only.
The physics of the atmosphere (Within current climate paradigm) creates the feedback factor (f). It is naturally occurring. By climate paradigm, it is the current general conditions of the earth. Warmth of oceans, configuration of continents and mountains and general amount of ice in polar regions.
How is it physically possible for the atmosphere to determine that only 8K is the input that is feeding back? In fact, it is not possible for the atmosphere to determine this. There is no mechanism to separate temperatures into different categories.
The non-linear argument is that there was a different climate paradigm – such as no non-condensing GHG, then the the atmosphere would get to 255K. So, there is in effect a different a different feedback circuit that arrives at 255. It is somehow separate. And that is why the 8K input in (2) does not include the 255K TE.
But for our purposes we only need to consider the conditions that exist now on earth. In other words, what will happen in current conditions if the amount of CO2 increases. Not what would happen if TE were 200K and CO2 emissions increased or what would happen if the physical properties of the climate changed enough to change the physical meaning of (f) so that it is different.
Another argument – if the atmosphere were very cold, feedback would act differently. Thus, that is why the 8K is separate in (2).
None of those is valid IMO. The physical characteristics of the atmosphere are what set the feedback factor (f). The physical characteristics of the atmosphere have been found to change little as CO2 increases. Especially those dealing with water vapor feedback which is the majority of the feedback factor (f). In other words, we don't need to consider how the atmosphere would act if TE were different – for example 200K and GHG was thought to be 30K. We only need to consider the current conditions.

Reply to  BobG
March 24, 2018 10:07 am

Bob G has absolutely gotten the point. Since the 8 K warming from the presence of greenhouse gases induces a feedback response, so does the 255 K emission temperature that prevailed (assuming today’s albedo) even before there were any greenhouse gases.
As to the nonlinearity in feedbacks to which our detractors rather desperately cling, we had allowed for it in several ways. First, we found that, even on a snowball Earth with albedo twice today’s the feedback fraction would only be 0.2, or about a quarter of the current official mid-range estimates. Secondly, we calibrated the explicitly linear zero-dimensional model by informing it with official values of the reference sensitivity and the feedback fraction, and even though the equation is linear it reproduced exactly the official interval of Charney sensitivities in the CMIP5 models: namely, 3.3 [2.0, 4.5] K. Not much sign of nonlinearity there, then. Thirdly, we took what seems to have been the unique step of deriving the pre-industrial feedback fraction 0.08 theoretically, and the industrial-era feedback fraction 0.05 (plus a bit to allow for heat-sink delay in the oceans) empirically, whereupon the two values cohered an order of magnitude below the official feedback fraction 0.67. Fourthly, we performed a sensitivity analysis to see how much greater than 0.05 the feedback fraction would have to be to produce even the 1.5 K minimum IPCC Charney sensitivity. It would have to be five times the value we had determined empirically. Sixthly, we make the obvious point that, where the feedback fraction is as low as 0.05 to 0.1, nonlinearities don’t make a lot difference. Seventhly, we showed that, given the absence of the model-predicted tropical mid-troposphere hot spot that was supposed to arise owing to the water vapor feedback, that feedback may well be a whole lot less non-linear than had been imagined. Eighthly, it should be clear to all that if the 255 K emission temperature induces a feedback response the feedback response to the 8 K direct warming from the presence of the greenhouse gases must be commensurately diminished, from which our low-sensitivity conclusion follows.

March 24, 2018 8:38 am

http://i66.tinypic.com/ixziuh.jpg
In the above image I try to show the earths climate as a feedback system to match the head post.
It may look strange at first glance, but shows the suns energy flowing in from the left, through the atmosphere, warming the surface. The Long wave IR exists through the atmosphere to the right, towards space.
Both incoming and outgoing energy flows are affected by the nature and content of the atmosphere.
Of course the incoming atmospheric volume and outgoing atmospheric volume are one and the same.
What can change the balance of energy flow?
Sun energy stream,
Anything in the atmosphere to influence the incoming flow.
Anything in the atmosphere to influence the outgoing flow.
Some things we think we know, some we know we do not know IE particles and clouds respectively.
I have shown the feedback loop, negative of course.
Some will say this feedback loop can not exist as drawn, I suggest it does.
It is clear that if the ground absorbs more radiation (for any reason) its temperature will rise, therefore the energy flowing to space will increase. Calculations in the head post and those in the following posts try to illustrate by how much the resulting temperature rise will be to a change in CO2 level.
If we reduce the level of CO2 in the atmosphere the temperature will fall.
If we reduce the level of H2O in the atmosphere the temperature will fall.
If we keep reducing the level of these to IR active substances the temperature will fall.
The Greenhouse Enhancement effect is the feedback shown above.
Change any part of the feedback loop (solar in, IR out, gas concentration) will effect every part of the loop and the output of the system will change.
In our case the output of the system is the average surface temperature.
It matters not if we replicate the system with an amplifier, the concept remains intact.
We routinely get microvolts from antennas, feed it into amplifiers that have power gain indicated in dB’s, string them together. It matters not as long as you use the correct units for your calculations.
I am content with Christopher Moncktons current methods.
We should not get hung up on word play using random (climate) meanings for feedback and forcing.
Feedback has a firm definition, forcing is just a change.

Reply to  Steve Richards
March 24, 2018 9:21 am

Steve – you said
“…..It matters not if we replicate the system with an amplifier, the concept remains intact. …..”
Are you sure Monckton is “replicating” any system? Isn’t his “electronics” just doing calculations (just arithmetic!) that is more easily done on paper (even by a Jr. High student) or with a pocket calculator?
Did you not get around to reading the Monckton of Brenchley March 23, 2018 at 5:00 am that I suggested to you above?

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 24, 2018 9:52 am

Mr Hutchins continues to avoid the main point, which is that feedback theory mandates that a temperature feedback will induce a feedback response to any temperature acting on the system, including the emission temperature, in which event the feedback fraction will be approximately an order of magnitude below current estimates. We built test rigs to make sure that this was the case. Just as well that we did: for a large number of comments here are by people (on both sides of the climate debate) who did not realize that even an unamplified input signal is capable of inducing a feedback response, provided that there are feedback mechanisms present.
There are those who sneer at simplicity, but I am Classically trained: essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 24, 2018 11:11 am

Mr. Monckton said March 24, 2018 at 9:52 am in part:
“Just as well that we did: for a large number of comments here are by people (on both sides of the climate debate) who did not realize that even an unamplified input signal is capable of inducing a feedback response, provided that there are feedback mechanisms present.”
Isn’t this just what my example:
http://electronotes.netfirms.com/EN219Fig6.bmp
shows – an open-loop gain of 1 amplified to a closed loop gain of 3 by a feedback of +2/3. (Assuming what you have been calling “direct gain” is what the rest of us call ”open-loop gain”. If you HAD provided a diagram we might well demonstrate agreement.) My figure dates back to a tutorial of mine from 2013:
http://electronotes.netfirms.com/EN219.pdf
offered in a modern context (indeed – a context of GW), although the theory is older than either of us! So how am I currently “AVOIDING” something I have been claiming for five years?
It is because you, in your (abandoned) “feet of clay” series from Sept. 2016, clearly showed you did NOT understand positive feedback, and never acknowledged your error (that I can find – or is that the Latin at the end?), that we need to be clear what you are now claiming.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 24, 2018 1:56 pm

Mr Hutchins, who continues to adopt his usual hectoring, condescending tone, does himself no favors.
I stopped the Feet of Clay series, as already explained upthread, because the experiment in getting readers here to comment sensibly had been hijacked by the likes of Mr Hutchins, whose shrieking tone put people off. So I recruited a team of well-qualified scientists and we put our heads together in a constructive and collegial atmosphere.
Let me clear up one point. When I talk of “direct gain”, I am talking of what, in electronic circuits, would be the amplifier gain delivered by the gain block. If one opens the feedback loop, then the direct gain is what one adds to the input signal to obtain the output signal.
If Mr Hutchins agrees that if the direct-gain factor in the gain block is set to unity the output signal will differ from the input signal if a nonzero feedback fraction is present, then we are in agreement, but we are at odds with official climatology, which considers that the emission temperature cannot induce a feedback response.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 24, 2018 3:13 pm

I am uncertain why the learning curve is so steep here. But I taught long enough to have infinite patience. In my circuit, Fig. 6, there are four resistors R, giving an open-loop gain (direct gain I guess? – we still need his diagram) of +1. The (3/2)R resistor offers a feedback of f =+2/3. The closed loop gain is thus 1/(1-2/3) = 3, which is greater than 1. The measured voltages concur. This example, and many others, have been available for 5 years, and also posted on Mr. Monckton’s “feet of clay” as an example of f greater than 0.1 being perfectly stable. So – YES, we agree. I didn’t realize he was so unknowledgeable of electronics, or would not even take the trouble to consult his “experts”.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 25, 2018 3:28 am

Mr Hutchins says he taught long enough to have infinite patience. If he had taught at all, even for a single lesson, he would have learned that sneering at his students and treating them with disrespect and contempt would not endear him to them. He regurgitates the equation used in the head posting and showing that official climatology, with its feedback fraction 0.67, triples the reference sensitivity to achieve equilibrium sensitivity. He then makes the point – as though it were somehow astonishing – that a feedback fraction 0.67 exceeds a feedback fraction of 0.1. However, as the head posting demonstrates, the feedback fraction is probably somewhat less than 0.1.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 25, 2018 11:01 am

As for teaching, with no more than a BS in Engineering Physics (Cornell 67), and my own professional reputation, I taught at “top-10” Cornell EE for some 35 years, principally as a Lecturer, and taught senior and first-year-graduate courses, as well as always having an office door open and having students show up who usually, at my insistence, addressed me as “Bernie”. So I guess Monkton is right that they all treated me with disdain! But they did come to learn, not to posture.
Monckton accepts no suggestions or even recognizes a “lifeline” thrown him. I suspect that the reason he abandoned the “feet of clay” is that he did come to see he had made a blunder with respect to positive feedback stability and could no longer argue his case. Nowhere does he simply say he was WRONG. Even just above when I said we likely AGREE that anything designated as an “input” is modified by feedback, he switches tracks and says the feedback is less than 0.1.
And we still need his diagram to see what he is talking about. Just above, I learn that a “feedback fraction” is a feedback gain (which if negative need not be a fraction). Above that he said:
“… then the direct gain is what one adds to the input signal to obtain the output signal. If Mr Hutchins agrees that if the direct-gain factor…”. I was guessing he meant open-loop gain, but this is a “multiply-by” not an “adds”. A proper diagram provides clarity and compensates for differing as well as sloppy notation.

Reply to  Steve Richards
March 24, 2018 9:55 am

Steve Richards has very much grasped the fact and importance of our result. However, we should define our terms carefully. A radiative forcing, expressed in Watts per square meter, is a change in the down-minus-up mean emission-altitude radiative flux density. A temperature feedback, expressed in Watts per square meter per Kelvin of the temperature that induced it, is also a forcing, whose magnitude has a dependence upon the magnitude of the inducing temperature. Thus, both forcing and feedback have specific definitions. And these are definitions from mainstream climate science. Our approach has been to accept ad argumentum everything except the error we have exposed, thereby reducing the scope for disagreement.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 12:23 pm

This is my understanding. Feel free to correct me, I am not a climate scientist.
In the atmosphere CO2 is considered a forcing because CO2 is a non-condensing gas. Water vapour is considered a feedback, because it condenses out when the temperature drops. But both act the same way, both absorb and radiate long wave radiation (but not short wave). That is, both are forcings, just that one necessarily follows the other. [CO2 is also considered a feedback when out-gassed from the oceans following warming from (say) orbital changes.]
You have presented definitions that make no sense to me.
Perhaps you might try to explain exactly what you mean by a “temperature feedback”. (March 22 at 6:47 pm)

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 1:50 pm

Ms Hawking is correct that a feedback is a forcing, but a feedback forcing is proportional to the temperature that induced it. If the definitions I have given do not make sense, take the matter up with official climatology. They are not my definitions. I have merely adopted them ad argumentum.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 3:01 pm

I want you to tell me exactly what you mean by “temperature feedback”. You are claiming to have discovered a fatal flaw in climate science yet seem unwilling to explain what you are talking about in a simple straight-forward way.
I suspect the reason is quite simple: you don’t know what you’re talking about.
You have concocted a “story in numbers” that has no explanatory value and bears no resemblance to reality. It’s not the first time you have crafted mumbo jumbo in order to bamboozle the punters.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 3:33 pm

Stephanie –
The thing to keep in mind is that the variables in the feedback equations are initially JUST NUMBERS. Solving the equations is little more than trivial arithmetic. No one can dispute the way the numbers come out.
It is when we ascribe meanings to these numbers (temperatures, voltages, blood sugar) that things get interesting. When I, as an EE, assign the numbers to be voltages I am on very solid ground, and I know the feedback parameters to be SET to certain values (ratios of resistors for example) and the sign of the feedback is clear. Only when we EEs blunder in an embarrassing way (and probably immediately see the error and slap ourselves) is there any error beyond small component tolerance variation. Electronically things are so reliable we can use circuits to “compute” (as in the ancient analog computers) .
Such sciences as math, physics, and engineering are quite solidly anchored in this respect. By the time you get to biology, medicine and psychology, “political science” (!), etc., things are quite slippery. With the earth sciences (e.g., climate) things are already going bad. We barely know (we don’t know) how to realistically measure something like global temperature. Beyond speculation, we don’t know any (likely multiple) feedback mechanisms or the corresponding parameters. We can only “model” and estimate. Any errors are not so much in the wrong feedbacks as in supposing that feedbacks are realistic at all.
Electronics = apples, climate = oranges, when it comes to feedback. But from the EE’s point of view, the electronics at least is trivial.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 24, 2018 3:37 pm

Stephanie,
You forgot co2 EMISSION. Your narrative only sounds plausible because you neglect physics. You arbitrarily eliminated half the equation. co2 absorbs and re-emits IR femtoseconds later. You turned a gain and loss into only a gain.
“Fools can’t believe they can be fooled”

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 3:24 am

Ms Hawking presumes to be gratuitously offensive and yet wants me to tell her what is meant by “temperature feedback”. A temperature feedback, denominated in Watts per square meter of per Kelvin of the temperature that induced the feedback, is a radiative forcing that arises when the preconditions for a feedback response are present. Those preconditions are that a temperature should be present, and that at least one feedback process should be present. The effect of the forcing, like that of any forcing, is to drive a change in the original temperature. If the feedback forcing is positive, the temperature will be amplified. If the feedback forcing is negative the temperature will be diminished.
Mr Hutchins attempts to suggest that the feedback mathematics originally derived for electronic circuitry is inapplicable to the climate. In that event he should address his generally venomous and arrogant opinions not to me but to official climatology, which makes it repeatedly plain that the basis on which it considers feedbacks is precisely the electronic network analysis that Mr Hutchins now finds it expedient to pretend to consider inapplicable. The very textbook that I have cited, Bode 1945, is repeatedly cited in paper after paper in official climatology. If all these papers were as wrong as Mr Hutchins suggests, let him take the matter up with their authors or try to write a paper of his own.
Ms Phin appears unaware of the laboratory experiments that show the influence of CO2 in modifying the flux of near-infrared radiation in the principal absorption band of CO2 centered on 14.99 microns.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 9:25 am

Zoe Phin March 24, 2018 at 3:37 pm
Stephanie,
You forgot co2 EMISSION. Your narrative only sounds plausible because you neglect physics. You arbitrarily eliminated half the equation. co2 absorbs and re-emits IR femtoseconds later. You turned a gain and loss into only a gain.

No the re-emission occurs milliseconds later, however during that time it endure collisions with its neighbors about 10 times per nanosecond. Consequently in the lower atmosphere much of the absorbed light is thermalized to the surrounding O2 and N2.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 10:51 am

“…..that Mr Hutchins now finds it expedient to pretend to consider inapplicable. ….”
STRAW MAN – I said the opposite.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 12:35 pm

Phil, where did you get milliseconds from? It’s wrong.
And how hot does co2 have to be to thermalize itself and the surrounding 2499 non-co2 molecules to raise overall temperature by 1 deg. K?
The answer to that question demonstrates the absurdity of alarmists’ position.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 12:40 pm

Lord Monckton says:
“Ms Phin appears unaware of the laboratory experiments that show the influence of CO2 in modifying the flux of near-infrared radiation in the principal absorption band of CO2 centered on 14.99 microns.”
Yeah, I must be stupid. You figured it out.
Absorption of 15 micron radiation is equivalent to ~-80C blackbody by Wien’s Law. Gases absorb weaker than a blackbody, so it’s way less than -80C.
What can <~-80C warm?
Do you know?
Hint: Nothing above -80C, that's for sure.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 1:17 pm

Phil,
Sun rays strike the ground and warm it. The ground transfers heat to the gases above via convection mediated conduction. Which molecules cool faster? The highly emissive ones: GHGs. Since the overwhelming majority of heat in the troposphere is a result of convection mediated conduction, GHGs will shed this energy faster, and result in cooling. Meanwhile non-GHGs will have a hard time sheding this energy. Non-GHGs will bump into GHGs and they will radiate this energy. Hence it is the non-GHGs that are the major “heat trapping” gases.

Reply to  Steve Richards
March 24, 2018 4:02 pm

How does adding a highly emissive gas like co2 cause the planet to warm up? co2 can shed its adiabatically induced temperature faster than o2 and n2. co2 LEAKS heat more effectively than non-GHGs.

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 25, 2018 3:31 am

In reply to Ms Phin, as I have repeatedly pointed out, I have accepted ad argumentum the whole of climate science, except where we have identified an error. If Ms Phin wishes to say that CO2 does not exercise in the real world the influence on a passing radiative flux that it can be shown to exercise in the laboratory, she should not take me to task, but should address her no doubt valuable opinions to official climatology. The usual method is to write a scientific paper and send it out for peer review.

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 25, 2018 1:23 pm

M,
Climate science has become pathological. The conclusion is already known in advance, and the assumptions and intermediate steps are falsely labeled “science”. By accepting some of these things you accidently give them credibility, meanwhile their whole structure is wrong. I hope you know what you’re doing.
Best regards -Zoe

Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 11:35 am

why Monckton never seems to learn from overconfidently stating something untrue

If the people like him – who reject climate science – believe it, then for him it is true.
Roy Spencer believes the conclusion but not the argument.
So who does believe Christopher Monckton’s new physics/maths? Not Bernie Hutchins, an electronics engineer at Cornell. Not Nick Stokes, an applied mathematician who writes regularly about climate science.
I don’t claim to know much, but the proposition that a temperature per se is a feedback, which is after all just a forcing that follows another forcing, smacks of perpetual motion to me.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 3:47 am

Ms Hawking, with her characteristic blend of malevolence and ignorance, says that I “reject climate science”. Yet I have stated over and over again, in reply to her comments as well as to those of many others, that – for the sake of argument – I accept all of climate science except the error that my team has identified. We have explained our hypothesis in duly quantitative terms: we have exposed our argument to public scrutiny, and the underlying paper is now out for peer review. Whatever else this is, it cannot legitimately be characterized by the childish, totalitarian slogan “reject climate science”.
Ms Hawking thrice uses the word “believe”. This, too, is a hallmark of the totalitarian approach to climate science. If she were to do a little reading in the philosophy of science, she would discover that science is not about believing a thing to be so but about investigating whether a thing is so, using the formal process known as the “scientific method”. Belief does not come into it. If I advance a hypothesis, it is not the least valuable for me to invite acceptance of it because I “believe” it. I advance it because I am able to provide some evidence that it is true. For the same reason, argument from “consensus” has no place in science, for the “consensus” (even if there be one, which in climate science there is not) may be ignorant, corrupt or simply erroneous. In science, an argument stands or falls on its own merits, and it matters not to any genuine scientist whether anyone “believes”.
Next, Ms Hawking perpetrates the shopworn and elementary logical fallacy of the argumentum ad verecundiam. And she again reveals her prejudice by saying that one engineer known to be an adherent of the totalitarian Party Line on climate and one applied mathematician ditto say they disagree with our result, and yet she makes no mention of the fact that our result was arrived at with the assistance of three engineers, one of whom is a professor, or of the fact that I have made a fortune out of applied mathematics and several papers every year by mathematicians appear in the learned journals to discuss my discoveries. But the central point is that it is totalitarianism, not science, that proceeds by way of the argument from reputation. Science is not concerned with reputations: it is concerned with seeking the objective truth.
Ms Hawking, as a totalitarian, puts the Party Line before all else. Anyone in that ultimately damned frame of mind is incapable of reason, and incapable of being reasoned with.
Finally, Ms Hawking, having been repeatedly told that I have not, repeat not, repeat not asserted that a temperature is a feedback, continues futilely and malevolently to recite that that is what I have said. And if she does not agree that a feedback is a forcing proportional to the temperature that induced it, she shouold not whine to me about it: she should address her silly complaint to official climatology. One consequence of her belief is that no feedbacks operate in the climate, in which event her belief in “climate science” is misplaced, because without feedbacks CO2 on its own cannot cause enough warming to be worth worrying about.
Ms Hawking needs to raise her game. I have been very patient with her, but she does not reflect any glory on the totalitarian cause she so unthinkingly espouses by writing malevolent nonsense here.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 10:58 am

Hawking
“Climate science” is the “religion” that YOU believe in,
not me, or anyone else with sense.
Here’s what you believe,
which you probably didn’t even realize:
Adding man made CO2 to the atmosphere
will result in runaway warming, that will
eventually end all life on Earth.
And proof of that is .. well there is no proof …
but there was + 1 degree C. warming since 1880,
probably +/- 1 degree C.
or even larger margin of error,
based on data free numbers,
compiled by biased government bureaucrats
who happen to have science degrees,
but mistake wild guess predictions
of the future average temperature,
using computer games,
for real science !
Over 50% of surface “temperature” numbers
are wild guessed infilling, that can
NEVER be verified or falsified
= not real science !
And under 50% of surface numbers
are “adjusted”, often more than once,
raw data from measurement instruments,
not regularly checked in the field for accuracy.
The results do not correlate
with weather satellite
or weather balloon radiosonde data,
which do correlate with each other
Those surface “measurements”
are the foundation of YOUR climate “religion”.
Congratulations, I have decided:
– You are an annoying nit-wit whose
only skill is parroting the official leftist
government bureaucrat nonsense
that CO2 is evil … when in fact, CO2
is the staff of life,
and adding more CO2 to the air
is greening the planet
with NO harmful side effects.
If the CO2 is causing any nighttime
warming, in cold dry latitudes,
that is good news too.
Have a nice day, Ms. “wit”

March 24, 2018 3:37 pm

Stephanie Hawking, in terms of ” you don’t know what you’re talking about” I feel that your beef should be with ‘team climate’. They are the ones whose models are grossly in error, they are the ones who write papers full of suspect stats and maths.
Christopher Monckton, a polarizing figure is attempting to describe an error he and his team have found, using terms common amongst ‘team climate’.
I am sorry if ‘team climate’ terminology is confusing, irrational and mis describes common engineering terms.
It is almost as though ‘team climate’ want to confuse people!
Team Monckton have happened upon an inconsistency. Trying to describe this and bring it to life, this inconsistency is what this, and many other threads are about.
Simply put, all degrees K of temperature have an effect on the GHE, to say otherwise is bizarre.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Steve Richards
March 24, 2018 6:45 pm

What is a “temperature feedback”?
Until I see a definition or explanation I will assume it’s gobbledygook.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 7:30 pm

Would this article from the American Metorological Society help?
Isolating the Temperature Feedback Loop and Its Effects on Surface Temperature
https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/JAS-D-15-0287.1
Climate feedback processes are known to substantially amplify the surface warming response to an increase of greenhouse gases. When the forcing and feedbacks modify the temperature response, they trigger “temperature feedback loops” that amplify the direct temperature changes due to the forcing and nontemperature feedbacks through the thermal–radiative coupling between the atmosphere and surface. This study introduces a new feedback-response analysis method that can isolate and quantify the effects of the temperature feedback loops of individual processes on surface temperature from their corresponding direct surface temperature responses.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 8:02 pm

Stephanie –
A “temperature feedback” is simple enough. The thermostat in your house is one. It is designed by someone. If you didn’t have one, you could do it by hand – switching on the heater when it got cold. Also requires a person (you). Does Nature Herself provide any thermostatting? Likely so. You just don’t get any user’s manual and are left to speculate on how it works. For example, perhaps a pool of water is evaporating in the hot sun beating down. The water vapor forms a cloud reducing the sun. The “how” of such things is not quite obvious and the “why” seems a philosophical question at best. What is essential is a natural sensing means (like heating water) and a natural feedback means (like a cloud). I doubt anyone can explain why the feedback response is negative for us. Except we ARE here. And it seems robust. But DO worry about anyone who supposes Nature’s thermostat are as simple as the ones people make with bimetallic springs and magnets flipping switches.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 24, 2018 10:11 pm

(Monckton of Brenchley, March 24 at 1:50 pm) Ms Hawking is correct that a feedback is a forcing

Entry for radiative forcing in the glossary of Global Warming the complete briefing, John Houghton, Cambridge University Press:

The change in average net radiation at the top of the troposphere (the lower atmosphere) which occurs because of a change in the concentration of a greenhouse gas or because of a change in the overall climate system.Cloud radiative forcing is the change in the net radiation at the top of the troposphere due to the presence of cloud.

Note the word “change”. Where is the word “change” here:

(Monckton of Brenchley March 22 at 6:47 pm) We realized, by sweating the math, that the emission temperature must induce a feedback response (an enhancement of the original temperature). Indeed, the version of the feedback loop used in all sciences other than climatology explicitly includes the input signal as part of the calculation.

So explain to me how an emission temperature per se acts as a forcing.

But we knew that climatologists, misled by the form of the feedback-loop equation that they have always used, would think that the input signal (emission temperature) could not induce a feedback response.

There is a good reason no climatologist will accept this rigmarole. The Viscount Monckton just made it up. To produce the answer he wanted. Motivated reasoning.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 4:27 am

Mr Hutchins continues to have difficulty with the notion, stated repeatedly in the peer-reviewed papers on climate sensitivity, that the feedback mathematics used in climatology is derived from the feedback theory first elaborated by Harold S. Black at Bell Labs, then in New York, in the 1920s and 1930s and codified in the best-selling textbook by Bode (1945). If Mr Hutchins does not like this fact and thinks official climatology is wrong, he should not sneer at me. He should take the matter up with official climatology, perhaps by attempting a learned paper. I do not know what his track record of publication in the learned journals is. It is perhaps more extensive than mine. But he will need to be a great deal more civilized, open-minded and better-informed than he has proven to be in this thread.
Ms Hawking continues to be puzzled by the fact that emission temperature can and does induce a feedback response. She says – and, to be fair, Roy Spencer is with her on this – that official climatology defines a feedback as a response to a perturbation or change, rather than to a pre-existing temperature. But this is exactly the error that official climatology makes. Let me prove it by using an atmosphere-ocean general-circulation model.
Lacis et al. (2010) ran such a model to try to work out what the Earth’s surface temperature would be today in the absence of non-condensing greenhouse gases. They found that most of the ocean would be covered in ice, so that the albedo, currently 0.293, would rise to 0.418. And, they said, that after the climate had settled to equilibrium 50 years following the removal of the non-condensing greenhouse gases, the surface temperature would be 252 K.
So let’s do the math. If the albedo is 0.418, and the insolation is 1364.625 Watts per square meter, then the Earth’s emission temperature at that albedo will be [1364.625(1 – 0.418)/(4 x 0.000000056704)]^0.25 = 243 K. The very small number is called the “Stefan-Boltzmann constant”, and the equation is the fundamental equation of radiative transfer.
But notice that the temperature imagined by Lacis et al. is not 243 K but 252 K, some 9 K greater than the emission temperature. The question is this: where did the extra 9 K come from? Lacis et al. admit that there would be some open water at the equator [implying a surface-albedo feedback] and that about a tenth of today’s water vapor would remain in the atmosphere [ implying a water-vapor feedback].
Here is the first of two $64,000 questions. If the 9 K difference between emission temperature and the temperature imagined by Lacis et al. to prevail in the absence of non-condensing greenhouse gases is not a feedback response to emission temperature, what on Earth is it?
But there is a further inconsistency in Lacis’ storyline. The difference between the 252 K temperature Lacis says would obtain at the surface in the absence of the non-condensing greenhouse gases and the 287 K pre-industrial temperature in 1850 is 35 K. According to Lacis, a quarter of this, or 9 K, is the directly-forced warming from the presence of the non-condensing greenhouse gases, and the remaining three-quarters, or 26 K, is the feedback response to that 9 K warming.
So to the second of two $64,000 questions. If the emission temperature of 243 K induces only 9 K of feedback response, how come that the 9 K of directly-forced warming from the presence of the non-condensing greenhouse gases induces as much as 26 K of feedback response?
Bottom line: the emission temperature is capable of inducing a feedback response, and Lacis’ model shows that that is indeed the case.

March 24, 2018 3:53 pm

Is Lord Monckton claiming that temperature in it of itself can be the cause of further temperature change?
Look, co2 is 1/2500 of the atmosphere.
However co2 is heavier than o2 by 12/32,
and heavier than n2 by 16/28.
Atmo is ~78% n2, and 21% o2
12/32*.21+16/28*.78=0.52
0.52*2500=1311
A co2 molecule would have to be excited to 1311K for it to transfer enough energy to the other 2499 molecules to raise the overall temperature by 1K.
1311K for 1K!
This is so obvious. I think Lord Monckton is being hoaxed by alarmist cranks who will never accept science but will enjoy getting others to partially bend to their will. You can negotiate with terrorists. Just sayin’
Peace,
Zoe P

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 24, 2018 3:55 pm

* You CAN’T negotiate with terrorists (alarmists).

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 25, 2018 3:10 am

In response to Zoe Phin, I have repeatedly made it clear that I have accepted – albeit holding my nose and for the sake of argument only – that everything proposed by official climatology is true, except where I can prove that there is an error.
In any event, since two-thirds of the warming predicted by official climatology arises not from direct forcings such as the CO2 forcings but from consequential feedbacks, in addressing the question of feedback I am eliminating two-thirds of the imagined warming it causes. After eliminating nearly all of this feedback-induced warming, there is no need to worry about CO2, because the warming it causes is too small to worry about.

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 25, 2018 12:22 pm

M,
Fair enough. I hope you’re doing the right thing.
Best regards -Zoe

Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 25, 2018 1:08 pm

M,
You can reduce the warming by at least 100x if you used the right physics. I guess you need to assume their fake reality or else they won’t talk to you?

March 24, 2018 11:04 pm

Monckton of Brenchley,
You have a classical education. You do not have an engineering education. Here is the thing: You have put a lot of time and energy into disproving something that was wrong in the first place.
First Principles: In the engineering world, we do not write down a number we cannot support from first principles, which, by the way, are also known as the Laws of Physics.
You are trying to prove that the wrong thing Trenberth and his cohorts did is false because they made a mistake involving Automatic Control. Automatic Control is how we engineers run feedback.
Feedback is what happens when an amplifier is wrongly coupled to the primary signal in such a way that the amplified signal can be detected by the sensor detecting the Primary Signal, screech in an auditorium.
If there is feedback in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, it will mean that more CO2 produces more water vapor, and more warming due to more water vapor.
Evidence proves otherwise, There is no more water vapor in the atmosphere.
Please, look at the evidence, prove me wrong.
Regards,
Moon

Reply to  Michael Moon
March 25, 2018 3:07 am

Mr Moon, in pointing out that I have little education in engineering, perpetrates the classical logical fallacy of the argumentum ad verecundiam, the argument from reputation. However, in the head posting I have presented an argument, developed in conjunction with eight experts three of whom are engineers, one of them a Professor, that stands or falls on its own merits.
If Mr Moon imagines that feedback only happens by inadvertence, he needs a better education in engineering. The theory of feedback – which is, of course, of universal application in dynamical systems where feedbacks operate – was first derived to stabilize telephone circuits. The work was done by Harold S. Black of Bell Labs, then in New York, in the 1920s and 1930s, culminating in an important paper by him. Feedback was deliberately built into amplifier circuits to stabilize them.
The relevant mathematics and physics were codified in a famous textbook by Black’s junior colleague, Hendrik Wade Bode, first published in 1945. Mr Moon may care to read ch. 3, where the elementary principles of feedback are set forth.
The error that we have exposed, namely the failure of official climatology to take account of the fact that the Earth’s emission temperature induces a large feedback, is precisely the reason why the predicted increase in the atmospheric burden of water vapor appears not to have occurred. For, after correcting the error, the feedback fraction is approximately one-tenth of current official estimates.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 1:26 pm

Lord Monckton,
You’re doing science by analogy. Feedback theory does not apply to Temperature, an intensive property. No substance can raise its own temperature because it has a temperature.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Michael Moon
March 25, 2018 9:45 am

Hi Michael –
Good for you. If you, like myself, had the good fortune of evading a “classical education” you have probably learned and practiced logic by THINKING; instead of listing fallacies and blundering into them personally! Monckton is a master at ad verecundiam (his unnamed experts – government labs, engineer with 3 PhDs), or texts he is clearly not capable of reading, and is a habitual builder of straw men.
Bernie

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 25, 2018 10:09 am

Mr Hutchins has descended to mere spite. We approached a government lab because we knew that it would be hard for most climatologists to accept that emission temperature induces a feedback even if it is unamplified by the direct warming forced by the presence of the naturally-occurring, non-condensing greenhouse gases, and because I myself wanted to be sure that a nonzero feedback would modify even an unamplified input signal, such as emission temperature in the climate.
There was a reason for my curiosity. As another commenter on this thread has pointed out, he has never seen a feedback-amplifier circuit with no amplifier. Nor had I. So I wanted to be quite sure that my understanding of the zero-dimensional model equation was correct. It seemed to me to imply that there would indeed be a feedback response to emission temperature on its own. The government laboratory confirmed that this is the case.
And we recruited two engineers and a professor of applied control theory to make sure that we were correct in our presentation of feedback theory. Even if I had personally been correct about every detail – unlikely, since I am a layman – it was necessary to check and check and check again. When Mr Hutchins learns of the scientific method, he will come to understand that repeated checking is essential to the process. Read al-Haytham.
Mr Hutchins will perhaps also learn one day that science does not depend upon personalities. It depends upon an unprejudiced and honest approach, and a genuine desire to find the truth, wherever it may be. He has uncritically and unthinkingly swallowed the ruthlessly-enforced, narrow-minded, totalitarian Party Line insisted upon by official climatology. I have dared to ask questions. Even if it turns out that I was wrong, at least I tried, which is more than can be said for Mr Hutchins.

Bernie Hutchins
Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 25, 2018 11:50 am

GOOD GRIEF! There IS always an amplifier (true) usually denoted “A” and A is a “variable” which can be, and often is, 1. (You need better experts!) The A=1 case also obtains when we take the output to be that from the “error amp” (summation). A can be any value, even a fraction.

Reply to  Bernie Hutchins
March 25, 2018 3:13 pm

Mr Hutchins is now at odds with the commenter who said he had not seen a feedback amplifier with no amplifier. That’s not quite the same as building a feedback amplifier with a gain block whose gain factor can be set to unity.
But if Mr Hutchins is so familiar with the position when an unamplified input signal is modified by a nonzero feedback fraction, then he is in effect agreeing with the head posting and disagreeing with official climate science, which says that the unamplified emission temperature (the input signal in the climate) is incapable of inducing a feedback response even though feedback processes are present in the climate system.

Chimp
March 25, 2018 10:31 am

IPCC still uses the 1979 Charney estimate of Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity (ECS, a dubious concept), ie 1.5 to 4.5 degrees C warming per doubling of CO2. Charney derived this range by accepting the then two WAGs on offer of 2.0 and 4.0 degrees C, and applying an arbitrary 0.5 degree margin of error. The higher WAG was by Hansen, completely lacking in any observed physical basis. The lower WAG came from modeling.
IPCC imagines with no physical basis that feedbacks will be net positive, mainly due to the radiative forcing of more water vapor. It downplays or ignores negative feedbacks such as convective cooling and clouds.
The laboratory, no-feedback CO2 ECS is about 1.2 degrees C per doubling. Recent observations support ECS well below 2.0. On a self-regulating water world, it’s likely that net feedbacks are negative, such that real ECS, if there be such a thing, will be found around 1.0 degree C or less. IOW, nothing to worry about and something to be welcomed, with the big plus of more plant food in the air.

Chimp
Reply to  Chimp
March 25, 2018 10:49 am

Maybe I should have said evaporative cooling, which in the actual complex climate system is a much bigger deal than the short shrift it’s given in IPCC reports.

Chimp
Reply to  Chimp
March 25, 2018 11:54 am

I note too that the CACA powers which be have tried to raise Charney’s estimate range to 2.1 to 4.5 degrees C, again without any sound scientific basis, but out of political expediency.

Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 10:40 am

(Monckton of Brenchley March 25 at 3:47 am) Ms Hawking, with her characteristic blend of malevolence and ignorance, says that I “reject climate science”. Yet I have stated over and over again, in reply to her comments as well as to those of many others, that – for the sake of argument – I accept all of climate science except the error that my team has identified.

Okay, so you accept climate science. Then say:

(Monckton of Brenchley March 25 at 3:10 am) After eliminating nearly all of this feedback-induced warming, there is no need to worry about CO2, because the warming it causes is too small to worry about.

But climate science is telling us human activity is causing Earth to retain more energy and we must reduce emissions of CO2 (and other GHGs) as soon as possible to avoid climate disruption.
I accept arithmetic but when I add or put 2 and 2 together I get 22.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 11:19 am

Ms. Stephanie “wit” Hawking:
“Science tells us many things that are wrong.
“Science” told us global warming would be triple
what actually happened in the past 40 years.
“Science” told us every decade would get warmer,
and then that didn’t happen from the early 2000’s
until the 2015 El Nino began.
“Science told us CO2 warming would be global,
especially strong around the poles … but
Antarctica has remained cold since the 1970s,
and most of the warming was in the northern
half of the northern hemisphere =
reality was far from being “global warming”.
“Science” (climate computer games)
told us about the tropical hot spot,
about six miles up in the troposphere,
caused by an alleged water vapor
positive feedback … that does not exist.
“Science” told us 4.5 billion years
of natural climate change suddenly stopped
in 1940, and with no explanation of why
or how it could happen, man made CO2 took
over as “climate controller”
… except from 1940 to 1975
when aerosols were the
“temporary climate controller”
… then the aerosols apparently
fell out of the air in 1975
and never affected the climate again !
You parrot all the junk climate science
perpetuated by your fellow leftists !
Because you are a “wit”.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Richard Greene
March 25, 2018 11:39 am

Science also sent a man to the moon, whereas you only bark at it.

Reply to  Richard Greene
March 25, 2018 12:18 pm

Stephie,
You are a lame sophist.
Science is not a monolith.
SOME scientists sent a man to the moon, and OTHER scientists are wrong about climate.
Your logical fallacy is “all or nothing”.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 11:22 am

In reply to Ms Hawking, climate science is only telling us we must reduce our sins of emission because it has made the error identified in the head posting. Once the error is corrected, the warming that remains is too little to worry about.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 12:14 pm

Reading comments from Steve Richards, Richard Greene, Chimp, Michael Moon, Zoe Phin and others, I do think you are in the right place here. You are getting all the support you need to continue believing you are correct.
I think the indoctrinated or informed people commenting here have threshed your paper: separated the wheat from the chaff.
I look forward to your next paper finding climate scientists are conspiring against you: refusing to acknowledge your brilliance and accept your latest scientific discovery.

Chimp
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
March 25, 2018 2:25 pm

Stephanie,
It seems to me that what Chris wants is no holds barred review of his team’s work. Like a real scientist, he wants people to try to find things wrong with it, unlike so-called “climate scientists”.

Reply to  Stephanie Hawking
March 25, 2018 1:35 pm

Stephie,
You are following charlatans who don’t know what their talking about.
We are burning oxygen and fusing a carbon atom to it, yes?
o2 has a HIGHER HEAT CAPACITY than co2.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-capacity-gases-d_159.html
What happens when you replace a substance (o2) with higher heat capacity with a substance (co2) with lower heat capacity?
Use your brain!
It’s certainly incompatible with
“human activity is causing Earth to retain more energy”
So how does climate “science” get away with such stupidity?
They simply recycle the history of people who were wrong, but claim they’re right!
It’s an echo chamber of false rhetoric, and you fell for it.

Stephanie Hawking
Reply to  Zoe Phin
March 25, 2018 4:32 pm

You are following charlatans who don’t know what their talking about.

Not “their”, they’re – short for they are. If the Royal Society, National Academy of Scientists, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Physical Society, American Chemical Society, American Statistical Association etc etc etc are charlatans I’m the Queen of Sheba.

We are burning oxygen and fusing a carbon atom to it, yes?

No. Oxygen doesn’t burn.

o2 has a HIGHER HEAT CAPACITY than co2.

If so so what? Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, oxygen isn’t. CO2 absorbs and radiates longwave radiation but not sunlight (shortwave).
First three lines wrong – I didn’t read any more.