Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
One of the enduring questions in climate involves what is usually called “cloud feedback”. When the earth warms up a bit, the clouds change in response. The question is the direction of that response. Does the change in clouds amplify a warming, or does it reduce a warming? Here’s Dr. Roy Spencer on the subject:
The total amount of CO2 humans have added to the atmosphere in the last 100 years has upset the radiative energy budget of the Earth by only 1%. How the climate system responds to that small “poke” is very uncertain.
The IPCC says there will be strong warming, with cloud changes making the warming worse. I claim there will be weak warming, with cloud changes acting to reduce the influence of that 1% change.
The difference between these two outcomes is whether cloud feedbacks are positive (the IPCC view), or negative (the view I and a minority of others have).
So far, neither side has been able to prove their case. That uncertainty even exists on this core issue is not appreciated by many scientists!
After some shenanigans, I’ve beaten my computer back into shape, and I’ve found the time to download the latest version of the CERES satellite radiation datasets. This version is called “Edition 4”. “CERES” is an acronym for Clouds and the Earth’s Radiant Energy System. The CERES project is collecting radiation data from three different satellites. The CERES project is online here.
There are two groups of CERES files—the top-of-atmosphere (TOA) datasets and the derived surface datasets. See the “DATA” note at the end of the post for information on where to get the two datasets.
The CERES TOA datasets are the actual measurements of the upwelling and downwelling shortwave (solar) radiation and longwave (thermal infrared) radiation.
The surface datasets, on the other hand, are derived from the TOA datasets along with a variety of other both satellite and surface data.
In previous Editions of the CERES data there have been TOA datasets for what is called the “cloud radiative effect”, or “CRE”. Figure 1, for example, shows the net effect of clouds on TOA radiation. This is at the inherent resolution of the CERES data, which is given on a one-degree latitude by one-degree longitude basis.

Figure 1. TOA net cloud radiative effect. Negative values show net cloud cooling; positive values show net cloud warming.
Note that overall, the effect of the clouds is to cool the system by about -18 W/m2 (negative values show cooling).
Now, clouds have two opposing effects on the radiation in the Earth’s climate system. The first of these effects is that clouds cool the surface by reflecting sunlight back into space. We experience this cooling effect when a cloud covers the sun on a hot afternoon.
The second effect is more subtle. Clouds increase the thermal radiation coming down from above us. We can experience this as well, but usually only on clear winter nights. On those nights, when a low-lying cloud comes over, it instantly replaces our view of outer space with a relatively warm cloud.
Warm relative to what, you might ask? Relative to the infinite heat sink of outer space. From outer space, we get on the order of 3 W/m2 of what is called “cosmic background radiation”. From a low-lying cloud, on the other hand, which is at say a temperature of about freezing, we get on the order of three hundred W/m2 of thermal radiation … and as a result, when clouds come over on a clear winter night you can feel the temperature difference. On such nights, you can feel how the advent of the clouds leaves the surface warmer than it was without the clouds.
So clouds have two opposite effects—less sunshine due to cloud reflections cools the surface, but more downwelling thermal radiation warms the surface. These opposing cloud radiative effects are referred to as the “shortwave” (solar) CRE and the “longwave” (thermal infrared) CRE. The difference between radiation gains and losses is referred to as the “net” CRE.
And the question, as Dr. Roy pointed out above, is this: what happens to the net CRE when the surface warms?
I bring all of this up because there are some new datasets in CERES Edition 4. In the CERES TOA group, there are now measurements of cloud area, cloud pressure, cloud temperature, and cloud optical depth. These are quite interesting in themselves, but that’s another story for another day.
More to the current point, in the derived CERES Surface datasets, there are now datasets for surface cloud radiative effect. In past CERES Editions, there have been TOA cloud radiative effect datasets (shortwave, longwave, and net). But this is the first Edition with surface cloud radiative effect datasets. Here’s the net effect of clouds at the surface.

Figure 2. Surface net cloud radiative effect. Negative values show net cloud cooling, positive values show net cloud warming.
The difference between looking at the net CRE from the top (Fig. 1) and from the bottom (Fig. 2) of the atmosphere is instructive. From the surface, the changes due to the clouds along the intertropical conversion zone (ITCZ, blue line above the Equator) are much larger than from the top of the atmosphere.
And to return to the main question, I thought I’d look at the changes in surface CRE with respect to changes in surface temperature. To do that, on a 1° latitude x 1° longitude gridcell basis I first removed the month-by-month seasonal variations in both the local cloud radiative effect and the local temperatures. Then, again on a 1°x1° gridcell basis, I calculated the trend of the local net CRE with respect to the local changes in temperature. Figure 3 shows that result:

Figure 3. Change in surface net cloud radiative effect for a 1°C increase in surface temperatures. Negative values show increased cooling in response to surface warming.
Now, this is a most fascinating result for a variety of reasons. First, note that the global average change of CRE with temperature is 0.0 W/m2 per degree C. This might explain why there is so much debate even as to the sign of the change in cloud radiative effect with increasing temperature.
Next, I have argued for a long time that the effect of clouds and thunderstorms in the tropics is to regulate the temperature. I have provided a variety of evidence showing that on a daily basis, when the tropical ocean is cool, clouds form later in the day and in fewer numbers. This allows the sun in to heat up the ocean. On the other hand, when the tropical ocean is warm, clouds and thunderstorms form earlier in the day and in greater numbers. This both cuts down on incoming sunshine and cools the surface directly in a variety of ways. See “Air Conditioning Nairobi, Refrigerating The Planet” for a discussion of surface cooling.
Figure 3 clearly shows that my hypothesis is correct. In the tropics, as the surface warms, the clouds act to increase their cooling effect. Not only that but in some areas, the effect is very strong. Over the “Pacific Warm Pool”, the warmest part of the world’s oceans shown in blue in Figure 3, there is a very strong cap on further warming. For each degree of warming, the clouds cool the surface by up to -20 W/m2.
Next, Figure 3 shows the problem with global averages. As a global average, the change in the surface net CRE per degree of surface warming is zero … but in the all-important tropics, the change in the CRE is strongly cooling.
Next, Figure 3 shows an additional reason why it has been hard to determine even the sign of the change in the CRE with changes in temperature—it’s negative over the ocean and positive over the land.
In assessing all of this, note that these month-long averages obscure what is actually happening on the ground. The temperature regulation actually occurs on a minute-by-minute basis, and only where and when the surface temperature exceeds or drops below a critical local temperature threshold. So when the cumulus cloud formation temperature is exceeded at say eleven AM in the tropics, the emerging clouds immediately reflect hundreds of watts per square metre of solar energy back to space. The cooling and warming occur as needed, when needed, where needed in order to maintain the temperature within a narrow range. The figures above show the month-long averages of these very precise, threshold-based, and discrete interventions in the evolution of the temperatures.
Anyhow, I think that’s all the scientific fun I’m allowed to have in a twenty-four-hour period … here, it’s been raining off and on all week. I’ve been marveling at the plants growing up between the bricks on the patio.

The surprising part about those plants is that after the rain, they’ve captured an amazing amount of water on their leaves.

Here’s a closeup:

Almost every leaf has managed to intercept and hold some water. I rate that as an amazing trick, a solar collector that doubles as a water catcher … note how the leaves are arranged so that the upper surfaces are flat and level, which keeps the drops from rolling off.
One last fun fact to make it all even stranger. The flat and level arrangement of the leaves shown above is not permanent, far from it. At night, this same plant folds its leaves up. The three two-lobed leaves of each head fold inwards, and the lobes fold back outwards so that what is the upper surface in the picture above becomes the inner surface. This cuts the surface exposed to the outer air in half, thus conserving both heat and internal water throughout the night.
Then the three-leaved head folds over so that the leaves hang down vertically. This reduces the profile of the plant and buries the heads down among the lower stems and foliage, which cuts down on wind-chill and thus also reduces overnight heat loss.
Astounding.
My best to you all on this amazing planet, where even the commonplace is extraordinary,
w.
My Usual Request: When you comment, please quote the exact words you are discussing. I can and am happy to defend my own words. I cannot defend you attacking something you think I said.
DATA: The CERES TOA dataset is available here and the surface dataset is available here I simply downloaded everything, which is about three-quarters of a gigabyte for the TOA dataset and about 0.9 gigabytes for the surface dataset. However, each individual dataset is only about 50 Mbytes, and you can download just what you wish.
DATA INFO: The CERES TOA datasets are as follows:
toa_sw_all
toa_lw_all
toa_net_all
toa_sw_clr
toa_lw_clr
toa_net_clr
toa_cre_sw
toa_cre_lw
toa_cre_net
solar
cldarea_total_daynight
cldpress_total_daynight
cldtemp_total_daynight
cldtau_total_day
The CERES surface datasets are as follows
srf_sw_down_all
srf_sw_down_clr
srf_sw_up_all
srf_sw_up_clr
srf_lw_down_all
srf_lw_down_clr
srf_lw_up_all
srf_lw_up_clr
srf_net_sw_all
srf_net_sw_clr
srf_net_lw_all
srf_net_lw_clr
srf_net_tot_all
srf_net_tot_clr
srf_cre_net_sw
srf_cre_net_lw
srf_cre_net_tot
There is no CERES surface temperature dataset. In lieu of that, I use a direct conversion of the CERES surface longwave upwelling all-sky radiation dataset to temperature by means of the Stefan-Boltzmann equation. I have checked this converted temperature dataset against various other temperature datasets (HadCRUT, Reynolds SST, UAH MSU, TAO buoys) and found it to be in very good agreement.
Abbreviations: sw – shortwave; lw – longwave; clr – clear sky conditions; all – all sky conditions; cldarea – cloud area; cldpress – cloud pressure; cldtemp – cloud temperature; cldtau – cloud optical depth; cre – cloud radiative effect; up – upwelling; down – downwelling; tot – total lw + sw
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w. ==> If you patio weed flowers yellow butter-cups, is is probably Oxalis pes-caprae and invasive species from South Africa.
It is a sorrel, but what sorrel? The wood sorrel is, by the way, about the only plant besides moss and blue anemone that survives here under a thick spruce forest. It is a dark, acidic place which may be humid, but, never gets a drop of lightest rains.
Hugs ==> The commonly named sorrel (wood sorrel) is an Oxalis (Yellow Wood Sorrel – Oxalis stricta).
I guessed it a Oxalis pes-caprae as it is the most common found particularly in coastal California. The shape and color of the flowers will be the easiest identifying feature.
That would explain the water efficiency. In RSA the night dew total can be five times the annual rainfall. Many plants can harvest the dew and get along fine with only that.
Agreed. Definitely an oxalis.
The original plant source of Ireland’s famed “shamrock”.
Willis: Oxalis, aka sorrel, are named for their oxalic acid content.
If you love plants along your brick joints, consider planting other creepers; e.g. thyme, or violets; that you can use for cooking. Johnny jump-ups, (small violets) are almost as durable and flower from the most unlikeliest places.
You could also plant catnip along the borders, but cats can destroy a catnip patch very quickly.
The most persistent invasive weed in my orchids and potted plants are oxalis plants. Oxalis will sprout from minute sections of remaining roots.
That said, I do keep a large purple leafed flowering oxalis for color and near constant flowers. But, all of those invasive oxalis weeds are not it’s offspring.
Excellent CERES article.
One notices that some of those 0/W/pm gray areas appear to be low humidity areas.
Willis – Do the rather unique thermodynamic properties of water (heat of vaporization, freezing, and heat capacity per unit of mass, etc) have anything to do with the observed critical and narrow temperature threshold observed? How does that relationship work? Is there a change in how this behavior affects temperature as the pressure is reduced – ie as altitude increases?
The observed change of sign in the CRE as one goes from ocean to land is fascinating and may also be explained by the thermodynamic properties of the water (vapor and droplets) and air.
Excellent article
Clouds rule not only in the tropics, Willis. Here on the great plains, warm summer days cause the clear morning sky to be populated by gigantic thunderheads by 2PM, and thunderstorms or hailstorms shortly thereafter. A 20 degree F or more temp drop within a few minutes is common.
Doug MacKenzie January 18, 2018 at 6:04 pm
True, Doug. It’s only in the tropics that the cooling outweighs the warming on average … but it can outweigh the warming at any given instant.
w.
Willis, can you dig out monthly or hourly graphs so we’d see how the radiative effect behaves during the year? Also, can you make another set of graphs that don’t center to the lovely Solomon Islands. Thanks. I wonder those sorrels, do they get sunburnt when they have those lenses of water on them?
I read recently that Moscow had only 6 minutes of sunshine in all of December. High latitude- short days and a lot of cloudy weather, I suppose.
Now Siberia is having extreme cold temperatures. That made me wonder about the high open water extent in the Arctic and whether that might create extra cloudy conditions that would impair the rate of heat loss in the long Arctic night, making the open water and reduced heat loss somewhat self reinforcing.
Just a thought.
Ceres data should take this into account, but something bothers me about the fact that smaller cumulus thunderclouds clouds can be 30,000 feet tall, reflecting much more solar radiation into space than the cloud area (only a mile or two across) projected onto the surface would lead one to believe. Just a thought for Willis to ponder.
John H
That Siberian air has wandered down to Ulaanbaatar and tonight the windchill it will be -59 C. I plan to stay in tomorrow as a result and wait until Monday before even trying to get outside. The rest of the week looks awful.
Hi re-CERES Edition 4 and the Cloud Radiative Effect.
I believe this has a lot to do with the Walker Circulation (Walker Cell),Although the latitudinal circulations (i.e. Hadley, Ferrel, and Polar) are the major global circulations, thermal energy can also be transported longitudinally. The
longitudinal circulation across the equatorial Pacific is known as the Walker cell or Walker circulation (as you know), The Walker cell is also driven by temperature and pressure gradients. Areas of high pressure form over the cooler eastern Pacific waters (remember, cool air means slower moving particles, means more densely packed particles, means higher pressure) and areas of low pressure form over the warmer eastern Pacific (warm air means faster moving particles, means more widely spaced particles as they bounce off each other, means lower pressure). Again, winds like to flow from areas of high pressure to low pressure and so the winds cross the Pacific moving from east to west. These also form the trade winds. These trade winds push the cooler water from the eastern Pacific all the way across the equator to the west Pacific, warming as it goes. The warm air over the warmer west Pacific waters rises, losing its moisture as precipitation. The dryer air then travels back towards the eastern Pacific, creating a loop. This cool Pacific air then converges with cool continental air and sinks along the eastern Pacific coast. Because the air is cool and dry, there are fewer rainstorm events in this high pressure region. The Walker cell also drives longitudinal air flow over the Indian Ocean and equatorial Atlantic Ocean. During the Neutral phase of ENSO the WC creates huge cloud modulation thus we see a decline in outgoing LWR over indonesia and SW Pacific.
Cool pics nature sure does adapt.
Cloud cover in the tropics has declined.
http://www.climate4you.com/images/HadCRUT3%20and%20TropicalCloudCoverISCCP.gif
From that graph you cannot make that statement
Yogi – where is 2010 to 2017. Seems like a lot of missing relevant info. Although I could cherry pick the GAS from 97 to know and say it has declined at the same time a cloud cover increased – based on what I see on your graph. Correlation? Note the 2007 increase in clouds and the decrease in temperature.
“I’ve looked a clouds from both sides now …” Joni Mitchell.
Exactly
The project was cancelled in 2011.
Or year before or something, for not providing alarmist enough data.
Wayne – Tropical cloud cover looks essentially flat since 1997 on that chart, and cherry picking you want to see doesn’t actually make the longer term trends disappear.
Yogi – Cool chart showing that tropical cloud cover cools global temperature. Looks like a 5% increase in clouds causes a 3 degree reduction in temperature.
R
Support for your 5 vs 3 figures: Svensmark says a 2.5% increase in clouds (or the opposite) explains the natural temperature changes for the 21th Century.
Prof Lu in Waterloo holds that the CR influence on ozone over Antarctica explains all temperature changes since 1950.
If they are both half right, there is no AG signal to find.
“Cloud cover in the tropics has declined.”
As to be expected, as that graph basically covers the “hiatus” when a -ve PDO/ENSO regime dominated in the Pacific. Cooler SST’s and therefor less convection/cloud.
I wonder what up to date data shows.
Yogi et al: There is some evidence that some or even most the variance in the cloud record is due to artifacts:
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/10.1175/JTECH-D-14-00058.1
“Observational systems designed for monitoring weather are the only source of cloud records spanning multiple decades. These lack long-term stability needed for monitoring climate; new instruments, calibration drifts, orbital changes, and other factors have introduced spurious variability that usually overwhelms any real long-term signal in surface and satellite cloud records (e.g., Norris 1999, 2000; Campbell 2004; Evan et al. 2007; Norris and Slingo 2009; Foster and Heidinger 2013; Free and Sun 2013). Although the presence of large systematic artifacts currently prevents the use of satellite cloud data in studies of long-term cloud variability, the fact that the artifacts are systematic provides the opportunity to characterize and empirically remove them. If similar cloud variability is found in multiple independent satellite datasets after removal of artifacts, then it will increase our confidence that the reported cloud changes are real.”
For disagreements between three records, see Figure 1a)
“This study described and applied a method for removing spurious variability in total cloud fraction from two commonly used multidecadal satellite cloud records, ISCCP and PATMOS-x. One cause of spurious variability is systematic changes in the satellite zenith angle of geostationary satellites contributing to the ISCCP dataset. We characterized the effect of change in the satellite zenith angle on reported cloud fraction through linear regression and obtained corrected cloud anomalies by taking residuals from the best-fit line at each grid box. Another cause of spurious variability is systematic drifts through equatorial crossing time, represented by the solar zenith angle, of polar-orbiting satellites contributing to the PATMOS-x dataset. We characterized the effect of change in the solar zenith angle on reported cloud fraction through linear regression and again obtained corrected cloud anomalies by taking residuals from the best-fit line at each grid box. A third cause of spurious variability are known and unknown changes in effective calibration, ancillary data, and volcanic aerosols that create spatially coherent anomalies in cloud fraction at very large scales in the ISCCP and PATMOS-x datasets. We characterized this effect by creating a time series of normalized cloud anomalies spatially averaged over every grid box viewed by a satellite, calculating the best-fit line between this time series and cloud anomalies at each grid box, and taking residuals to obtain corrected cloud anomalies.”
In general, I’m dubious about homogenization procedures like the one’s in this paper. However, it is worth knowing that some scientists are extremely skeptical that weather satellites provided an appropriate platform for properly monitoring changes in clouds.
Hey it is California, Willis you could show pictures of your special “herb” garden.
Thanks, Joel. My wife is the gardener, not me, and neither of us has an herb garden. Strongest stuff to come out of our garden is the !@ur momisugly#$%^&* kale … how did I make it through my youth without kale? And why can’t I get through adulthood without it?
w.
Just say “no”!
You might find this amusing, then: http://babylonbee.com/news/satan-claims-responsibility-kale/
Yes, the true devil weed…
Willis –
I admire your ability to identify, address, and discuss core issues in a lucid manner Your tropical ‘heat pump’ hypothesis looks very feasible to me.
Regards
Michael C
Thanks for the kind words, Michael. I do strive for lucidity.
w.
Isn’t the ‘tropical heat pump’ Dr Lindzen’s or is that the ‘Iris effect’?
“So clouds have two opposite effects—less sunshine due to cloud reflections cools the surface, but more downwelling thermal radiation warms the surface.”
No, the cloud is more likely to be colder than the surface and thus cannot warm the surface. Remember, on a cold winter night, the clouds, if there are any, are also going to have been emitting their IR to space just like the surface. In such cases, the cloud is likely to be colder and thus cannot warm the surface.
All the cloud does is to slow down the loss of energy from the surface by radiating IR, only up to its temperature, back to the surface. This is not a warming just a decreased cooling.
In the balance, during the day, the solar energy blocked by the cloud, outweighs the slowing down of upward IR from the surface and the decreased convection from the surface.
Good point higley7
A nightime cloud will also result in
…..” and the decreased convection from the surface.”
The decreased convection element may be larger than the radiative component in this heat transfer situation
Higley7
The insulation in the walls of my house is much colder than the rooms inside. Yet we still insulate our houses and derive benefit therefrom.
Clouds insulate the ground by intercepting IR from the ground and re-radiating it in all directions.
‘being colder’ is for talking about heat conduction. It is re-radiating and it does that whatever the temperature. It is radiation, not conduction and clouds definitely keep the surface warmer on cold nights than it would otherwise be.
Just like my house.
Yes, radiation is proportional to the fourth power of absolute temperature, and radiant energy goes from colder to hotter surfaces as well as from hotter to colder. Cloudy nights are generally warmer than clear ones.
douglas cooper:
Essentially your comments are correct; except the radiation you refer to is the NET radiation not just as from one of the elements. Otherwise this is contrary to the second thermodynamic law, where an outside source of energy is required to move energy from a low energy system to a higher one.
Also the radiation temperature equation assumes there is no phase change taking place which occurs at constant temperature such as in the evaporation of water.
Energy transfer and radiation are two different animals, albeit linked.
Cloud cover merely reduces the rate of surface cooling; but adds no energy to the combined systems.
“Astounding.
My best to you all on this amazing planet, where even the commonplace is extraordinary,
w.”
———————–
Yes, isn’t that so. Thank you for the view and the point.
All of the stardust and energy of the universe that reaches us, turns to wondrous life.
Is it any wonder that we find ourselves here at WUWT, standing against those who would stand in the way of life, by fomenting their Malthusian doctrines, which only lead to darkness and death for man, the magnificent being who can contemplate and appreciate the wonder of it all.
The fact that the wet lapse rate is significantly less than the dry lapse rate is evidence that more H2O in the atmosphere has a net cooling effect allowing more heat energy to rise higher in the atmosphere to be radiated out to space. Clouds are also radiators to space at higher altitudes than the Earth’s surface. In terms of LWIR radiation clouds cannot cause warming of the Earth’s surface but they can act of reduce LWIR realted radiative cooling.
Simple, Objective and Inexpensive Approach to Exposing the CAGW Hoax; Live By The Computer, Die By The Computer
This is a very very very easy to expose the fraud that CAGW truly is, and it would be done objectively and removed from political and personal bias. President Trump should demand that “Stepwise” be run on all Tax-Payer Funded climate models, and the results of the “Stepwise” model should be compared to the results of the existing model. If the R-Square, or explanatory power, of the “Stepwise” model, is greater than the existing climate model, then you have the case for possible scientific fraud. It will at least force the slimate clientists to acknowledge that there are factors far far far more important to the climate than CO2. Slimate clientists have chosen the computer as their weapon in this war, so President Trump should fight back using the computer. Like the Frankenstein Monster, the creation can be used to turn on its creators. Computers won’t lie, slimate climatists will and do, and “Stepwise” can prove it. The very computer models the IPCC created to manufacture the CAGW Myth can be used to destroy it.
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2018/01/19/simple-objective-and-inexpensive-approach-to-exposing-the-cagw-hoax-live-by-the-computer-die-by-the-computer/
Great article Willis. It is indeed a wonderfully complicated world.
About this:
“I’ve been marveling at the plants growing up between the bricks on the patio.”
Based on my experience, your delight in this will only be temporary as the marvels of plant power moving and lifting your beautifully placed bricks will soon be evident.
Extreme Hiatus January 18, 2018 at 7:15 pm
Yeah, next sunny day I’ve got to get out my weed whacker and give the joint a haircut …
w.
Nothing a few squirts of roundup couldn’t handle!
Great post Willis.
A placement of landscape fabric under the patio bricks would have helped.
Perhaps next time.
Agree on the article, very interesting. I’ve long suspected that clouds are the biggest uncertainty in the whole green house effect argument. They slow cooling at night and reduce warming during the day. Net positive, net negative or a wash? I don’t think anyone knows.
As for the plants – Glyphosate! 😉
Glyphosate? Not on clover.
Actually, that’s redwood sorrel …
w.
The weed in question is indeed yellow oxalis, a very vigorous exotic perennial. Since this plant possesses bulbs, it will readily resprout if whacked, and will continue to spread year by year. Only by waging a diligent war of attrition, by a combination of whacking and bulb extirpation, will the tide eventually be turned.
On brick walkways I use a propane burner to ‘lightly cook’ (not burn to a crisp) the leaves. This causes the cell walls to break and the plant dries out in a short time.
Willis
In Figure 3 just wondering why the ave. globe is zero when southern hemisphere and tropics are negative. Only northern hemisphere is positive but tropics is 8 times larger negative (-1.6 vs. 0.2) I suppose the ave. globe is weighted average based on area. NH must be 8 times larger in area than tropics to get zero average. But tropics and NH are almost equal in area?
I think it is not only averaged by area but also by time period.
So…what you are saying is …effectively there is no greenhouse effect because a doubling of co2 would have a zero multiplier and would only create 1 degree of warming which is so inconsequential it would be a very large net benefit to our environment!
This is wot I call Science.
How similar is “Mother Earth” to a living/biological organism!! Just as our skin accumulates Melanin platelets with sunshine (Tanning) or liquid when we are hot (Perspiration) or…… so does the planet produce Clouds as (just one small) part of its harmonious “biological symphony”….
The illustration makes sense to me. It shows that in the arctic and antarctic the net effect of clouds is warming. Right at the poles, there is no sun for nearly half the year so the only effect the clouds can have then, with almost no solar radiation, is warming.
It should also be noted that the arctic is a net radiator. Heat transported into the arctic by the atmosphere and ocean exceeds the heat gained from the sun. link Again, it makes sense to me that the net effect of arctic clouds would be warming.
Willis, what effect does your Feline Overlord have on climate change?
{THe mods require catastrophic questions to be cataloged and handled in unique categories. .mod]
Willis
Let us ask the question then. If, on a “clear day” at some arbitrary hour-of-the-day, 62% of the TOA radiation transmits the atmosphere to hit the ground, and 38% is absorbed in various dusts and gasses; what percent of the same sunlight at TOA penetrates to hit the ground if it is cloudy?
“Average” (cloudy planet) albedo is 0.31
Does that mean that only 62% of (1-0.31 = 0.69) of the original TOA sunlight gets to the ground on that particular hour-of-the-day? (On generic average of course.) Or is it some other percent of the “clear day” absorbed radiation?
Yes, nights with cloud cover tend to be warmer than those without clouds, as the Earth’s radiation is going to a thermal blanket much warmer than deep space, which is why desert nights get cold quickly. Days with cloud cover are cooler as the Sun is attenuated and is not beating down on the ground. Somewhat greater heating (due to more CO2) will evaporate more moisture and produce more clouds. These clouds will narrow the range of daily temperatures, making the days less warm than otherwise and the nights warmer. On net, one expects the reflection of direct sunlight from more clouds to allow less heat to reach the Earth.
TOA net effect of clouds: -18 W/m2.
Seventy km altitude net effect 280 to 400ppm CO2: +3.36 W/m2 (tropical clear sky).
Seventy km altitude net effect 280 to 400ppm CO2: +1.19 W/m2 (tropical cumulus cloud base).
I’m going with Dr. Roy.
OT, Due to shut-down of some old coal power stations., basically all Eastern Australia is on a knife-edge for electricity.
No decent RELIABLE upgrades to the system in MANY years (except in Queensland)
This really has got to the FARCE stage.
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/01/peak-heat-electricity-prices-lifting-off-industry-shutting-off-in-australia/
And this w/e is looking to be hottest evah!
Willis I don’t agree with you assessment and there are far more effects than two with clouds and you are falling for the what is happening to me trick. Lets stay with hard physics science and away from the climate science soft science.
You have a Mass attenuation coefficient (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_attenuation_coefficient) for both the incoming and leaving radiation. The cloud puts a barrier condition in the vertical absorption cross section. Now that barrier has two totally independent features a reflective profile and an absorption profile.
So lets deal with your 2 claims
1.) That cloud cools:
So on your hot day the cloud comes over and yes you feel cool because it the incoming profile reflects energy. However the cloud is made of water and it is also absorbing long wave radiation and getting hotter and that energy isn’t going out to space. So just because you feel cooler doesn’t mean the effect on PLANET EARTH is cooler you are neglecting the cloud which is building up heat and there are tons of water in one of those. I don’t know what the proportions are and at a guess it varies with cloud thickness and droplet size and I would assume an actual scientist in the climate field might have actually tried to measure it. The reflection will be massive but much of that energy might ultimately have been reflected or work back up in long wave so I can’t even hazard a guess as to which effect is greater I need data.
So on that claim I am unconvinced “In God I trust everyone else bring data”, please show me data.
2.) Clouds increase the thermal radiation coming down from above us
Well yes in some frequencies, but they also have an absorption profile which again you are neglecting.
So in some frequencies they will actually be taking heat away from you as in long wave radiation.
So again on that claim I am unconvinced “In God I trust everyone else bring data”, please show me data.
This area of radiosity is extremely tricky and because it doesn’t behave in the standard classical physics way it is easy to fool yourself. The easiest way to keep checks and balances is use the equation for radiative transfer
LdB
LdB, come back when you are willing to follow a polite request and to actually QUOTE WHATEVER IT IS YOU ARE BABBLING ABOUT! I have no clue what you think I said, but it sure doesn’t sound like anything I actually said.
w.
W, quite uncalled-for reply to LdB.
Brett, I can’t tell you how tired I am of folks like LdB who want to rave about something they believe I said, AFTER I’ve asked them to quote exactly what they are referring to. So yes, I snapped at LdB, and I’d do it again, pour encourager les autres if for nothing else.
Regards,
w.
I second Willis’ snap back. Clarity in complaining is of utmost importance.
LdB
The cooling effect of clouds is due to reflection of incoming sunlight
Reflectivity varies from 0.5 to 0.8 and ave. solar insolation is 340 W/m^2 so you expect -170 W/m^2 for areas covered by clouds
The warming effect is due to emission of longwave IR by clouds. This is a function of temperature in the SB equation. Since dry air is already emitting IR, you get more IR if clouds are warmer than dry air. If dry air is 0 C and cloud is 5 C warmer, you expect +24 W/m^2
That’s the theory but climate is more complicated than physics
I forgot to say clouds have 100% relative humidity so they have more water vapor which is a greenhouse gas, more greenhouse effect
Dr. S wrote:
The warming effect is due to emission of longwave IR by clouds. This is a function of temperature in the SB equation. Since dry air is already emitting IR, you get more IR if clouds are warmer than dry air.
I’m not convinced of this as the mechanism for warming by clouds. I’m thinking it might have more to do with thermal capacity of clouds, as well as how the extent of cloud mass affects movement of warmer air masses below it.
I’m one of those heathens who does not buy into the surface-heating effect of IR coming from cooler areas of the atmosphere — a fan and friend of WUWT, for sure, but, alas, not on this point.
Thermal capacity of clouds – that would be latent heat of vaporization. It’s an exothermic process and a possible mechanism why clouds would be warmer than dry air. Since air density is a function of temperature, it could also retard rising warm air, which cools the ground. Phase change, convection, radiation, they are all happening in the atmosphere.
Dont you mean gains energy by absorption and loses energy by emission?
It was established unequivocally in this very blog 3.5 years ago in the follow in link:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/06/16/nature-abhors-a-positive-feedback/
That clouds cool the atmosphere. In the link check out figures 5, 6 and 7 with accompanying explanation.
I dont see how CO2 can produce water vapour. The water vapour is already in the air via evaporation. Warm air holds more water vapour than cool air. The key is that water on the earth is neither created nor destroyed. It just recirculates. The temperature of the air determines the amount of evaporation Evaporation takes the heat from the ocean and transfers it to the atmosphere which makes the humidity higher. This goes on and on on a regional and local basis, till the air becomes saturated, When the local atmosphere is overlysaturated with water vapour it then causes dew drops on the earths surface or otherwise rains to establish an equilibrium. So this means that there is always a limit on the amount of water vapour in the air to absorb the LWIR. When it rains the heat is transferred in 2 directions. 1)back to the surface and 2) also outward to the upper atmoshere and on to space. Heat doesnt get created nor destroyed, only transferred. So since there is only a finite amount of water vapour in the atmosphere that also absorbs the LWIR , the air gets warmer only up to a point. All precipitation; dew, rain, sleet, snow causes the air to cool. Since there is an overwhelmingly amount of water vapour in the air compared to CO2, it is the water vapour that is the forcing factor on temperature NOT CO2.
Excellent work, Willis. When you say “As a global average, the change in the surface net CRE per degree of surface warming is zero … but in the all-important tropics, the change in the CRE is strongly cooling” I think this is consistent with Svensmark’s theory because of the arrangement of the Northern Hemisphere continents. With sunspots currently averaging only 10 per day compared to 50 per day at previous equivalent periods in the sun’s 11 year cycle, this is almost certainly a factor in the current very cold N. American winter. This arrangement on continents then produces ice-albedo feedback from cold winters. Do you agree?.