Winning: UA ordered to surrender emails to skeptics of human-caused climate change

The famous NOAA Climate station at the University of Arizona, Tucson, measuring the temperature of a parking lot.

PHOENIX — The University of Arizona has been ordered to surrender emails by two UA scientists that a group claims will help prove that theories about human-caused climate change are false and part of a conspiracy.

Pima County Superior Court Judge James Marner rejected arguments by the Board of Regents that disclosure of the documents would be “contrary to the best interests of the state.”

Marner said it may be true that some of the documents sought by Energy & Environment Legal Institute might be classified as unpublished research, manuscripts, preliminary analyses, drafts of scientific papers and plans for future research.

But the judge said the subject matter of the documents has become available to the general public. And that, Marner said, does not allow the university to withhold disclosure under a separate section of the law governing university records.

There was no immediate response from the university.

The ruling is a turnabout for Marner, who had previously ruled that some emails were properly withheld because they contained things like confidential information or attorney work product. He said at the time that the university did not act arbitrarily or capriciously in withholding other documents, including unpublished data, research, drafts and commentary.

But last year the state Court of Appeals told Marner to take another look.

Appellate Judge Joseph Howard, writing for the unanimous court, said it’s legally irrelevant what university officials thought was appropriate to disclose.

more here


 

In other news, perhaps seeing the writing on the wall earlier in the summer (since his emails are sought), Dr. Jonathan Overpeck announced his retirement from UA and has left for the University of Michigan.

 

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Earthling2
December 8, 2017 10:28 am

The tide is slowly turning. But it is turning, one small step at a time.

MikeSYR
Reply to  Earthling2
December 8, 2017 10:36 am

Yes, but the lingering effects of “a big lie” like CAGW remain for a long time. People will be referring to this issue as a cause of all earthly problems for years.

ShrNfr
Reply to  MikeSYR
December 8, 2017 11:38 am

I blame global warming for that.

Pat McAdoo
Reply to  MikeSYR
December 8, 2017 1:03 pm

The lingering will not last long, just look at the ice age predictions of the 70’s.

I predict it will be the asteroid!!!!! And we have one coming close tonight.

Problem is we cannot do much here on Earth yet to detect and deflect the killer chunk of rock or ice. So the threat for the Earth has to be something that we lowly humans can do something about. Hmmm…

If only something like carbon dioxide’s emission and absorption characteristics could have an effect on climate. Hmmmm….

Oh well, just some thots as we get snow flurries here on the Gulf coast.

Gums….

HotScot
Reply to  MikeSYR
December 8, 2017 1:07 pm

MikeSYR

I don’t agree. It’ll fall down the agenda gradually, just as global cooling did in the 70’s/80’s. The media stops obsessing about it as it becomes ‘unfashionable’ and it doesn’t sell papers. Scientists will stop obsessing about it because the cash dries up. The internet in general will switch off to AGW and the alarmists will become more and more marginalised.

It’s beginning to happen, possibly with Trumps kickstart, but the man in the street is getting fed up with it anyway.

Perhaps in ten years time we’ll al be saying, whatever happened to WUWT? Which would be a good thing.

Perhaps we ought to start considering a reunion sometime in the future. There’s a nice pub in Meopham, Kent, overlooking a cricket pitch that serves wonderful food and cold beer. On a nice English summers day, there’s nothing more relaxing than watching a match for a few hours whilst socialising, eating, having a few drinks, and reminiscing, with the occasional HOWZAT! from the crease.

And if you imagine for a moment that cricket isn’t competitive, you are very much mistaken. It’s the chess of fieldsports (along with Rugby) with the underlying passion to win only barely disguised, by gentlemanly conduct on field.

Writing Observer
Reply to  MikeSYR
December 8, 2017 1:29 pm

@HotScot – I, for one, certainly hope that we aren’t wondering “what happened to Watt’s Up With That.”

Now, Anthony may decide to retire, or move on at least, once the stake has been driven firmly into the Green Blob. He will certainly have made a positive difference for the welfare of the world. But there will still be a need for a place where real science concerning climate, ecology, etc. is reported and made available for analysis.

(If continued, it will still most likely be called “Watt’s,” even in Anthony’s permanent absence. Sorry, Anthony, but you have become a brand name…)

Hmm. I am so tempted to put “Watt’s” into my far future science fiction scenario, when humans are running around with implanted AIs…

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  MikeSYR
December 8, 2017 1:34 pm

Yes, an asteroid is coming, if not now, then sometime. And only Marxism can save humanity from an asteroid. We must abandon capitalism and unite under the red banner! Humanity’s great leap forward, the anti-asteroid undertaking, is a fitting metaphor for class struggle, as called for by the scientific principles of dialectic materialism. Let us be clear, comrades, that Marxism alone may not be able to prevent an asteroid impact. Communism can, and will, however, make it seem like a blessing.

Reply to  MikeSYR
December 8, 2017 1:35 pm

It’s impossible to prove a prediction of the future climate wrong,
without waiting 50 to 100 years,
although after 30 years of warnings and wrong predictions,
only a fool would believe the global warmunists’ predictions.

I have difficulty calling the global warming hoax a “conspiracy”,
any more than I could call people who believe in heaven and hell a “conspiracy”.

People have all sorts of beliefs based on faith,
— that seems too common to be a conspiracy.

Traditional religious beliefs and CAGW secular religious beliefs
are all nonsense, to this long-time atheist.

At least many of the religious people have the 10 Commandments,
most of which are great wisdom for a peaceful society.

The Coming CO2-Caused climate change Catastrophe Cult
has nothing of value to offer.

The classic UA temperature station photo reminds me to
keep mentioning that Mr. Watt’s weather station study
was one of the most important documents / photos
in the history of climate science skepticism.

When I think of my climate science skepticism heroes,
the first three names are:

Richard Lindzen,

Anthony Watts, and
.
Patrick Moore

My free no-ads climate blog
for non-scientists:
http://www.elOnionBloggle.Blogspot.com

Auto
Reply to  MikeSYR
December 9, 2017 12:40 pm

jorge
December 8, 2017 at 1:34 pm

Magnificent!
The last sentence almost cost me a glass of red wine! Huge guffaw.
Much appreciated!

Auto

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  MikeSYR
December 9, 2017 1:53 pm

Thanks, Auto.

Wayne
Reply to  Earthling2
December 8, 2017 1:05 pm

Does that mean my electricity bill will start going down? Or that I can get the cheap lightbulbs again? Or my tax dollars won’t subsidize electric vehicles or food for fuel or ‘renewable resources’? Etc., etc., etc…

HotScot
Reply to  Wayne
December 8, 2017 1:09 pm

Wayne

With some luck and a following wind, yes.

ghl
Reply to  Wayne
December 8, 2017 3:33 pm

Wayne
Your electricity bill will go down as soon as someone refunds the cost of wind farms and solar arrays. Most are built with borrowed money which must be repaid and have contracts for compulsory sales.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Wayne
December 8, 2017 11:06 pm

I kinda like LED bulbs. I wouldn’t go back to incandescent bulbs.

nankerphelge
Reply to  Earthling2
December 8, 2017 1:50 pm

Problem is the generations that have been brainwashed and look at us like silly old fools!!
There will be no “gee you were right Dad/Mum”.

Anthony Byrd
Reply to  nankerphelge
December 8, 2017 2:34 pm

8 inches of snow at my house in South Mississippi today.
Thanks, Al Gore!

Rhoda R
Reply to  nankerphelge
December 8, 2017 6:28 pm

“Gee, you were right Dad/Mum” usually comes when the kids hit around thirty. Or start having kids of their own.

Reply to  Earthling2
December 9, 2017 12:35 pm

Funding. As funding dries up, so will the cagc movement.

December 8, 2017 10:42 am

There must be some damaging substance in those emails. Else UA would not have fought so hard to conceal them despite no argument about their being public records under Arizona law.

AndyG55
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 11:18 am

I wonder how many have been “erased” !

Tom in Florida
Reply to  AndyG55
December 8, 2017 11:29 am

Don’t you mean wiped with a cloth.

Bryan A
Reply to  AndyG55
December 8, 2017 12:11 pm

Is that redacted sanitized

Ted Midd
Reply to  AndyG55
December 8, 2017 12:48 pm

Try deleted.

RAH
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 12:29 pm

“Tom in Florida December 8, 2017 at 11:29 am
Don’t you mean wiped with a cloth.”

No he doesn’t. He’s not “the most qualified woman ever to run for president” you know.

Latitude
Reply to  RAH
December 8, 2017 12:46 pm

it’s so tempting to put the bobble head gif here…..

HotScot
Reply to  RAH
December 8, 2017 1:10 pm

Latitude

Dare you.

🙂

icisil
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 1:23 pm

Roll Tide!

icisil
Reply to  icisil
December 8, 2017 1:35 pm

Oh… AZ not AL

Reply to  icisil
December 9, 2017 3:39 am

We know it’s Az. Yelling “Roll Tide” is a reflex. Like when you see a gorgeous woman you have certain uncontrollable physical reactions. It’s not right or wrong, it just is.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 2:55 pm

That’s one interpretation. Another is simply the University tries to protect its faculty from disclosures under the broadest claim possible. Sometimes they win, sometimes not. If they lose, there’s really no penalty. In this case they won, but then got reversed on the not-at-all-instant replay.

In any case, speculation is pointless here. Absent further appeals E&ELI will get the emails and then we’ll know exactly how damaging they are. It’s hard to imagine there could be anything worse for the AGW cause than the ClimateGate emails, and those had nowhere near the impact it should have.

December 8, 2017 10:44 am

I wonder if the University of Michigan knows about this controversy?

Mark from the Midwest
Reply to  mikelowe2013
December 8, 2017 11:10 am

Yes, they are, and it shouldn’t make any difference. Michigan law is pretty clear. The Michigan FOIA broadly defines a public record as a

“writing prepared, owned, used, in the possession of, or retained by a public body in the performance of an official function, from the time it is created”

the only statutory exemptions are data from human subjects in order to protect privacy, proprietary data shared by a 3rd party for a narrowly defined purpose, certain legal documents in order to protect privilege, and student records.

HotScot
Reply to  Mark from the Midwest
December 8, 2017 1:40 pm

Mark from the Midwest

Interesting comment. I always imagined, in my naivety, that US Universities were all private concerns with students paying fees for the privilege of higher education.

There’s an ongoing debate in the UK right now. The Vice Chancellor of Bath University was being paid nearly half a million UKBP per year, I believe, and resigned from her post under scrutiny for it, with a nearly £1M pay off, including a loss of earnings sum.

Nor is it what could be described as a ‘red brick’ University like Oxford or Cambridge. It was a Teacher Training College before Tony Blair’s reforms of the higher education system and is far from forming the core of research and educational institutions in the UK. A bums on seats University.

However, criticism has been stifled because of it’s, almost, private funding status, from students paying £9,000 a year for tuition alone, never mind accommodation.

The government seems to be saying the University can do what it likes, and I wonder if that will go as far as FOI requests in the future.

AJB
Reply to  Mark from the Midwest
December 8, 2017 4:32 pm

HotScot, you may be unaware of the following:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42268306

Roger Knights
Reply to  Mark from the Midwest
December 8, 2017 10:51 pm

“Nor is it what could be described as a ‘red brick’ University like Oxford or Cambridge.”

But Wikipedia says: “Red brick university (or redbrick university) is a term originally used to refer to nine civic universities founded in the major industrial cities of England in the 19th century,”

Reply to  mikelowe2013
December 8, 2017 1:42 pm

When i read the following, I got nauseous:

“Dr. Jonathan Overpeck announced his retirement from UA
and has left for the University of Michigan.”

Another loser for UofM ?

I live 45 minutes from UofM Ann Arbor,
our Moscow in Michigan

Gary Pearse.
Reply to  mikelowe2013
December 8, 2017 3:10 pm

It’ll be – 20C when Overperk gets to his new digs. Frozen ears and nose helps you to focus on climate for sure. The timing of his departure is an admission of guilt basically. He got an offer he couldn’t turn down, apparently. Cash is the thing these days with these guys. Michigan U probably thinks they’ve got a big grants magnetic, having not let the end of daze message through thick skulls.

ATheoK
Reply to  Gary Pearse.
December 9, 2017 3:19 pm

Gary:
20C? Or a 20°F high?

Gabro
December 8, 2017 10:50 am

Great!

Might be a back door to Mann’s wrongly protected conspiratorial emails from UVA.

HotScot
Reply to  Gabro
December 8, 2017 1:43 pm

Gabro

Isn’t he already in contempt of a Canadian court over his refusal to reveal his data when he sued Tim Ball?

Gabro
Reply to  HotScot
December 8, 2017 2:02 pm

The emails are a separate issue. The VA Supreme Court ruled that Mann’s UVA emails were private, so the then VA attorney general couldn’t have them to make his fr@ud case against Mann. But Steyn said Mann dare not destroy them because of his counter suit against Mickey.

HotScot
Reply to  HotScot
December 8, 2017 5:05 pm

Gabro

In court, credibility is everything.

McLovin'
Reply to  HotScot
December 8, 2017 5:33 pm

Whatever became of that? Can you simply be and remain, indefinitely, in contempt of court in Canada?

kramer
Reply to  Gabro
December 9, 2017 3:33 pm

I really hope somebody hacks the server that contains his emails and sends them to wikileaks.

RWturner
December 8, 2017 10:52 am

What triggered the Energy & Environment Legal Institute to ask for these emails from this specific university in the first place? And why can’t the same be done with NOAA’s emails — why hasn’t Karl been found in contempt of Congress?

Reply to  RWturner
December 8, 2017 11:07 am

Yeah, knowing whom to sue for records is interesting. This could be like the old cliche that lawyers should not ask a question they do not already know the answer to.

Reply to  Tom Halla
December 8, 2017 11:25 am

TH, your intuition serves you well. See comment just below.

Reply to  RWturner
December 8, 2017 11:21 am

RWT, good question so I looked it up. EELI originally went after Mann in Virginia over the hockey stick, and got rebuffed under Virginia law (lost atnthe Virginia Supreme Court on appeal). Malcolm Hughes at UA was part of Mann’s original hockey stick team. Overpeck was not only key to AR4, but also closely linked to UA Colleague Hughes by the original Climategate disclosure ccs. EELI is trying to show via Hughes and Overpeck (since they failed in Virginia with Mann) that the hockey stick was knowingly broken at the time it was produced. And under Arizona law (finally, the initial FOIA was in 2011) they just succeeded after six years of trying. There must be a there, there, as Mann and Virginia and then Hughes and UA have fought this so hard for so long.

RWturner
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 12:28 pm

Very interesting, thanks.

Notanist
December 8, 2017 11:03 am

“…it’s legally irrelevant what university officials thought was appropriate to disclose.”

If a tax paid for its creation, tax-payers have a right to examine it unless national security is at stake.

RAH
Reply to  Notanist
December 8, 2017 12:39 pm

Exactly. And if it was produced,typed on a computer, or archived at tax payer expense then it is a public record and the property of the people.

bitchilly
Reply to  Notanist
December 8, 2017 9:44 pm

i will second that .public servants need to remember that is exactly what they are,servants of the public. not deities creating untouchable empires.

John Haddock
December 8, 2017 11:07 am

SAY not the struggle naught availeth,
The labour and the wounds are vain,
The enemy faints not, nor faileth,
And as things have been they remain.

If hopes were dupes, fears may be liars;
It may be, in yon smoke conceal’d,
Your comrades chase e’en now the fliers,
And, but for you, possess the field.

For while the tired waves, vainly breaking,
Seem here no painful inch to gain,
Far back, through creeks and inlets making,
Comes silent, flooding in, the main.

And not by eastern windows only,
When daylight comes, comes in the light;
In front the sun climbs slow, how slowly!
But westward, look, the land is bright!

Arthur Hugh Clough 1819–1861
Famously quoted by Churchill in a speech in April 1941 encouraging America to join the war.

knr
December 8, 2017 11:11 am

Odd how in that which is so ‘settled’ there is such a need for industrial levels of smoke and mirrors rather honesty and good science.

Hador NYC
Reply to  knr
December 8, 2017 11:19 am

Thats the part that gets me. Why is it bad that I question it, or even aspects of it? Dogma is strange to me.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Hador NYC
December 8, 2017 11:32 am

It’s what I learned as a young Catholic. Questioning your religion is blasphemy.

HotScot
Reply to  Hador NYC
December 8, 2017 2:32 pm

Tom in Florida

And yet encouraging the questioning of faith, is it’s very source of a future.

I found the Catholic faith very strange. As a Policeman in 1970’s Glasgow, one of the seats of Catholic/Protestant sectarianism, and as a protestant, I was invited to join robed priests while they drank, smoked and caroused to excess.

I once asked why they invited me (and other cops of course) and not their parishioners to join them. I was told they couldn’t let their “sheep” know what they do but Protestants were unworthy anyway so it didn’t matter if they knew………..????????????????????

Interestingly, from early in my Police service I understood the Police to be a bastion of Protestants, members of the Masons, and resentful of the Catholic Church.

As an incredibly naive recruit I asked my Sergeant why the Masons hated the Catholic Church. He told me they didn’t, it was the Pope many generations ago that threatened to excommunicate any Catholic who joined the masons following a spat.

I then asked him what the Masons actually were, where did they originate from. He told me that, true to their name, in the middle ages (and coincidentally the Medieval Warm Period) stonemasonry was a highly regarded trade thanks to the proliferation of Cathedrals and Churches being built (thanks to warmer climes and consequent abundant food which allowed people to engage in gainful employment rather than grubbing around for food) and they were a feature of almost every town and city.

They had a unique network of communications, including markings on their stonework which conveyed messages as well as identities, and they prided themselves in being hard working, law abiding citizens. It was, in effect, the first Police force.

I also met a number of Catholic Masons who valued the Masons principles and risked their own faith.

I didn’t join despite a number of invitations. My Dad was a senior Mason of some description although he never once mentioned it, as was his brother, and my Grandfather. But none of us are/were club kind of people, and I suspect the 70’s and 80’s Masons were not what they joined in their youth, and a generation earlier.

I eventually realised, the fairest, most ethical, least judgemental, welcoming, and honest cops I worked with, were Masons.

Reply to  Hador NYC
December 8, 2017 4:02 pm

Tom in Florida,

We have a joke in Germany,

A man comes to hell and finds it very confortable and relaxing. After looking around, he finds a wall in a corner with a gap to look through. There the real thing goes on. Fire of sulphur, endless pain and so on.

Asking a bystander, he asks what this is.

Answer: Oh, these are the Cathoholics, they like it that way.

sy computing
December 8, 2017 11:18 am

Emails from two scientists at the University of Arizona are going to “prove” the theory of CAGW is actually “CACA”?

No.

Reply to  sy computing
December 8, 2017 11:24 am

Not the objective here. The EELI target was always ‘just’ Mann’s hockey stick. See more specific comment upthread.

sy computing
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 11:31 am

ty

Hugs
Reply to  sy computing
December 8, 2017 11:41 am

Of course not. What they could prove that some people were doing a misconduct related to the original hockey stick. I find it probable that this is the result, as ristvan pointed out, they fought hard not to give up the records.

The news item our host quoted is silly in its wording. But the stuff itself is dynamite.

Javert Chip
Reply to  Hugs
December 8, 2017 12:57 pm

Hugs

Huh? What “…silly wording…”? What am I missing here?

Javert Chip
Reply to  Hugs
December 8, 2017 12:59 pm

Hugs

Oooops – never mind – I reread 1st paragraph about the group’s claim.

Reply to  sy computing
December 8, 2017 1:44 pm

What’s CACA?

Reply to  Richard Greene
December 8, 2017 1:45 pm

never mind I think I figured CACA out on my own

Reply to  sy computing
December 8, 2017 2:44 pm

Caca verte and not caca jaune?

TerryS
December 8, 2017 11:26 am

The University of Arizona has been ordered to surrender emails by two UA scientists that a group claims will help prove that theories about human-caused climate change are false and part of a conspiracy.

(my bold)

I think the author of the of the press report has been reading to much lewandinsky

Rob Dawg
December 8, 2017 11:26 am

> “Pima County Superior Court Judge James Marner rejected arguments by the Board of Regents that disclosure of the documents would be “contrary to the best interests of the state.””

I would characterize this as more:

Pima County Superior Court Judge James Marner was directed by the Courts of Appeals to reject the arguments by the Board of Regents that disclosure of the documents would be “contrary to the best interests of the state.

When the higher court remands it isn’t often for reaffirmation of the previous ruling.

ResourceGuy
December 8, 2017 11:27 am

Academic freedom does not include the freedom to distort climate policy on a global scale with impunity. Thanks judge and no thanks UA legal staff and administration.

Pop Piasa
Reply to  ResourceGuy
December 9, 2017 1:30 pm

…And Jonathan Overpeck becomes another J.O. headed back east to try his dogma there…

HankHenry
December 8, 2017 11:41 am

Overpeck looks a bit overinflated to me, but what do I know? He tells the University of Arizona to build him a slot canyon complete with stairs and they do it. That’s BIg Science straight out of Laurie Anderson’s BIG SCIENCE album. I have to wonder if CO2 is really the big theory of everything that modern environmentalists hope that it is. I think nature lovers have caught the disease that they claim society suffers from.

Reply to  HankHenry
December 8, 2017 2:37 pm

No, he is actually one of the big warmunist high priests. A big fish no different than Mann or Hughes. Sure, he thinks highly of himself because of this, and gets what he wants from UA and now UM because of the grant potential. ( Which potential may be starting a rapid decline.)

HankHenry
Reply to  ristvan
December 9, 2017 7:44 am

I like your statement “starting a rapid decline.” Won’t it be nice to see the air come out of some of these overinflated gas bags. Most of earth’s heat received from the sun resides in the oceans – not the atmosphere. Trenberth finally realized this when he scratched his head and exclaimed ” hey guys the missing heat is in the ocean” …. HELLO were you sick when your eighth grade teacher taught you that pumps don’t work at any depth you might wish because 15 pounds per square inch of atmospheric pressure amounts to a depth of a measly 33 feet of water ?!? You know – water – that stuff that covers 71% of the earth’s surface.

R.S. Brown
Reply to  HankHenry
December 8, 2017 5:14 pm

The satellites are out tonight…

December 8, 2017 12:44 pm

I’m not yet tired of winning.

TA
Reply to  daveburton
December 8, 2017 2:12 pm

Nor am I. I don’t think I will ever get tired of winning.

December 8, 2017 1:50 pm

if your comment doesn’t appear right away,
please have patience while our moderation team examines it.

My Translation (and moderator bait):
— If you send a comment including curse words,
a loud bell will ring near “moderator headquarters”,
and the first moderator,
who falls off his bar stool,
will be allowed 20 minutes to sober up,
and will then examine your comment.

Is that how it really works?

(Sorry,only drink Apple cider) MOD

HotScot
Reply to  Richard Greene
December 8, 2017 2:38 pm

Richard Greene

(Sorry,only drink Apple cider) MOD

Aw shi….err poo…. Scrumpy! we’re all doomed.

HotScot
Reply to  Richard Greene
December 8, 2017 2:44 pm

Richard Greene

BTW Mod, mix half and half scrumpy and a good lager, and after a few pints, tomorrow doesn’t matter.

In fact, visit Devon or Cornwall and they won’t serve strangers with the stuff.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  HotScot
December 8, 2017 8:02 pm

Usually called a snakebite where I am from. But anyone interested in cider, and I used to drink it, google Devonshire colic.

Twobob
Reply to  HotScot
December 9, 2017 4:20 am

The true mixed Apple cider drink, is cider and Guinness.
Black velvet, LUVERLY!
I only made 120 litres of cider this year,
So cutting it with Guinness it should just last me the year.

HotScot
Reply to  HotScot
December 9, 2017 11:03 am

Patrick MJD

I think it’s a snakebite wherever you are. My drink of choice as a 20 something in the Elphistone Hotel in Biggar. It was served cloudy, with a unique hangover experience.

HotScot
Reply to  HotScot
December 9, 2017 11:07 am

Twobob

I understood a black velvet to be Guinness and Champagne.

We live and learn.

Auto
Reply to  HotScot
December 9, 2017 1:03 pm

Many years ago I visited the Codrington Arms – now in BS 37.
Mistake – I drank their home-refined cider.
The good stuff is usually characterised as having dead rats in the vats.

I think this probably had dead badgers (no wild bears in England then) in the vat.
What happened to the bears, you ask . . . . . . .

Were I a cat, I would probably have lost a majority of my lives on the long – 50 yard/metre – journey home.
It certainly was long, though, as the universe seemed determined to do figure-of-eights around me, as I travelled, and I needed about four points of contact with the planet Earth. Some were not my face.

Never – ever – again did I touch West Country Scrumpy.
Utter blasted – on about three and a half pints (ish) . . . .

Auto – without an unblemished past.

HotScot
Reply to  Auto
December 9, 2017 5:10 pm

Auto

Your youth was thus not misspent. It was a learning experience.

The Reverend Badhger, hic!
Reply to  Richard Greene
December 8, 2017 3:04 pm

Yes, the only true cider is apple, anything else does not deserve to be called cider. Mine this evening was a particularly strong 7.8%, local Herefordshire tipple.

nankerphelge
December 8, 2017 1:53 pm

You would think they would be beaming with pride to prove their point!

Gabro
December 8, 2017 2:17 pm

Hope the email dump includes Overpeck’s notorious “We need to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period”.

Reply to  Gabro
December 8, 2017 2:43 pm

It should, because email is always a two way correspondence when properly archived. Now, whether UA has properly done so is an open question. But if this damning email with UEA does not appear, then we have a clear smoking gun about impropriety and probable UA unlawful conduct.
You have a good memory of Climategate, Gabro. I read a lot about it in 2011 when my personal climate Damascus moment arrived, but had totally forgotten this. Excellent point.

HotScot
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 2:47 pm

ristvan

It’s another storm in a teacup. For all the hopes sceptics have in this ‘revelation’. it’ll go the same way as climategate.

Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 3:33 pm

You may be right, but the climate (pun intended) has definitely changed in the US after Deplorables elected Trump. So I (a certified but non conforming at all to Hillary’s definition Deplorable) hope for more impact.

Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 3:33 pm

“But if this damning email with UEA”
There is no evidence that Overpeck ever made such a statement, let alone in an email, let alone with UEA.

Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 3:57 pm

Ah, Nick, as usual you are wrong, but nuanced wrong. For those that want to see how wrong you are, please see WUWT 12/8/2013 for a full discussion. Nick, you really need to up your game since your previous utterances and their refutations are internet indelible.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 4:06 pm

The email was from 1995. I doubt emails that old will be part of the FOIA.

Steve McIntyre summarized it pretty well https://climateaudit.org/2010/04/08/dealing-a-mortal-blow-to-the-mwp/

Overpeck doesn’t think he made the statement, but he’s caught making some very similar statements a decade or more later.

Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 4:09 pm

ristvan
No, you are wrong. There is no statement there by Overpeck that “We have to get rid of the medieval warm period”. He did say, in an email to Briffa
“I get the sense that I’m not the only one who would like to deal a mortal blow to the misuse of supposed warm period terms and myths in the literature.”
That is not a proposal to get rid of any period; it is a proposal to get rid of misuse of terms and myths. Anyone supporting misuse?

And that email need not be sought in a trove from UA. It has been available for years.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 8, 2017 5:45 pm

How do the two versions of Overpeck’s comment differ in meaning, Nick?

Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 4:21 pm

BTW, Nick, it took less than one minute to google the archived reference just cited that calls you out.. And anyone here could do the same on your nuanced pronouncements. Hope some do. (Nuanced means maybe literally true out of context, but surely not true in context. Not an admirable debating tactic on your part, alrhough oft seen. And I was once a national champion debater so know your obfuscating tactic well.)

Roger Knights
Reply to  ristvan
December 8, 2017 11:07 pm

“And I was once a national champion debater so know your obfuscating tactic well.”

Come back off that ledge, HotScot!

HotScot
Reply to  ristvan
December 9, 2017 11:13 am

Roger Knights

My thought as I finished ristvans paragraph, before I read yours.

You pulled me back from the edge Roger, thank you.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  ristvan
December 9, 2017 11:15 am

“…Deming said someone had said that to him in an email, but he never said who (or produced the email), so it can’t be checked. This alone should caused it to be dismissed by any real skeptic…”

So are you claiming that everyone should assume Deming made the whole thing up because he doesn’t have an email saved from 1995? Or that people should dismiss the possibility that Overpeck said it and assume it must have been some other prominent climate scientist?

Reply to  ristvan
December 9, 2017 12:09 pm

“Or that people should dismiss the possibility that Overpeck said it”
It’s pure speculation, which seems to have started with David Holland. Deming didn’t name a sender. But in any other context you’d dismiss the story entirely. Someone who won’t name the other party and won’t produce the email is clearly trying to ensure that no checking is possible.

Reply to  Gabro
December 8, 2017 6:34 pm

“How do the two versions of Overpeck’s comment differ in meaning, Nick?”

Again, there is no evidence that the original quote came from Overpeck. Deming said someone had said that to him in an email, but he never said who (or produced the email), so it can’t be checked. This alone should caused it to be dismissed by any real skeptic.

The second statement is certainly not saying that the MWP should be got rid of. He says that people are misusing talk of warm periods; claiming them to be other than what he thinks it is. And even if you disagree, it’s certainly a view that he is entitled to take. It is in no way “damning”, as ristvan would have it. And it has been public for years.

In fact, no-one was getting rid of the MWP. The text he was talking about in the email ended up a sa spwcial box, 6.4 in AR4, titled “Medieval Warm Period”. It concluded:
“The evidence currently available indicates that NH mean temperatures during medieval times (950–1100) were indeed warm in a 2-kyr context and even warmer in relation to the less sparse but still limited evidence of widespread average cool conditions in the 17th century (Osborn and Briff a, 2006). However, the evidence is not suffi cient to support a conclusion that hemispheric mean temperatures were as warm, or the extent of warm regions as expansive, as those in the 20th century as a whole, during any period in medieval times (Jones et al., 2001; Bradley et al., 2003a,b; Osborn and Briff a, 2006).”

Now I know there are folks here who just know that it was warmer, and that to suggest otherwise is “damning”. But scientists it differently. They lay out the evidence.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 8, 2017 11:19 pm

“Now I know there are folks here who just know that it was warmer, and that to suggest otherwise is “damning”. But scientists it differently. They lay out the evidence.”

Actually no one “knows” either way, since the error bars for proxies are just way too large. But, evidence suggests “it” (whatever “it” is) was warmer. But, since there’s no global temperature, it’s kind of a moot point.

Brett Keane
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 10, 2017 11:23 am

Nick Stokes
December 8, 2017 at 6:34 pm: My NZ University and others have our data on MWP Pollen and vulcanism dating deposits. Thw worldwide nature of MWP has long been proven, In spite of li@rs’ efforts again and again. Give it up Nick, it is sickening.

David S
December 8, 2017 2:17 pm

“Dr. Jonathan Overpeck announced his retirement from UA and has left for the University of Michigan” So now he’s coming here? … Swell 🙁

Gunga Din
Reply to  David S
December 8, 2017 3:44 pm

You even Penn State didn’t want him?

Louis
Reply to  David S
December 9, 2017 12:11 am

I didn’t know the University of Michigan was a good place for climate researchers to go to “retire.”

Gary Pearse.
December 8, 2017 2:51 pm

O sinner man where you gonna run to
O sinner man “” ” ” “” ” ”
All on that day.

Surely you can’t just flee across state lines like in the Bonnie and Clyde times. These are all little signs showing Trump has, indeed, shut down CAGW. Even a judge changing his mind. Also such precedents will loosen up the other neo-left log jams on FOI with Obama judges working on their new resumes to hang in N there. I’m waiting for Lamar Smith to get going on palooka Shukla and the Virginia 20, and the Pause busters at NOAA.

Roger Knights
Reply to  Gary Pearse.
December 8, 2017 11:09 pm

“I’m waiting for Lamar Smith to get going on palooka Shukla and the Virginia 20, and the Pause busters at NOAA.”

IIRC, he’s announced he’s retiring.

Extreme Hiatus
December 8, 2017 2:56 pm
Doug
December 8, 2017 3:20 pm

U of A has been horrible. They actually blocked the computer of Steve McKintyre, just his, from some archived data. As an alumni of the Arizona system I helped get it unblocked. They of course denied it.

Hugs
Reply to  Doug
December 9, 2017 2:26 am

So they are afraid, good.

Reply to  Doug
December 9, 2017 4:14 am

U of A IS horrible (fixed that for ya)! LOL. I suspect the blocking was run by the campus police and parking assigner. 🙂 (for those of you that have never attended an AZ University, you won’t get the joke. Suffice to say that unless you are willing to give up your first born and all your bloodkin–you get to park in BFE–but only until they erect NO Parking signs while you are on campus so they can issue you a ticket.–TRUE STORY).

Mack
December 8, 2017 3:29 pm

“Winning!” Well done Anthony, the prima donnas of climate hypochondria, who regularly check in to this blog to keep up to date with what the annoying heretics are up to, will be foaming at the mouth at that headline. They called for ‘trench warfare’ but, it seems, to coin a phrase from the old British comedy, Dad’s Army, when the bayonets are fixed they really don’t “like it up ’em”. Well, keep up the good work. I feel some kind of ‘tipping point’ is not far away, and it isn’t the kind of tipping point that Al Gore’s been dreaming of. It might just be a bit of cold steel to pop the baloon of the puffed up global warming narrative. Onwards and upwards!

AndyG55
Reply to  Mack
December 8, 2017 4:03 pm

“They called for ‘trench warfare’ ”

Yep, but as they dig themselves deeper and deeper, it keeps collapsing in on them. 🙂

Maybe a good idea for them would be to stop digging.

bitchilly
Reply to  AndyG55
December 8, 2017 9:56 pm

fantastic comment as usual andyg55 ,i like that .

Gunga Din
Reply to  AndyG55
December 9, 2017 6:30 am

If by “trench warfare” they mean writing crappy “hit” papers that miss the their target by a mile, let ’em keep digging.

Gunga din
Reply to  AndyG55
December 9, 2017 1:53 pm

It seems all they have to throw at their targets are boomerangs.

HotScot
Reply to  Mack
December 9, 2017 2:27 pm

Mack

“Don’t tell him Pike!”

🙂

HotScot
Reply to  Mack
December 9, 2017 2:39 pm

Mack

We went to see the play of Dad’s Army in the Orchard Theatre in Dartford, about ten years ago.

It was amusing, until the interlude, then I think they ran a couple of sketches before launching into that one.

The excitement in the audience was palpable, and when the line was delivered, it was with a chorus from the whole audience, at which point the play stopped while we all recovered. I had tears of mirth streaming down my face, as did the rest of the audience.

One of the funniest moments of my life.

barryjo
December 8, 2017 4:10 pm

Maybe I missed it but I saw no mention of the UA-run Biosphere2. Where they use a real greenhouse to replicate our atmosphere. A real life hotbed of CAGW information.

December 8, 2017 6:42 pm

It has been become a universal assumption among advocates of human-caused global warming that its cause is the greenhouse effect of atmospheric carbon dioxide in the air which we humans, have put there. There is no experimental proof of this. If they had it you can rest assured that it would be spread out all over the world by their huge public relations machine and trotted out during lawsuits such as the present one. This being the case let us consider the possibility that the automatic assumption of carbon dioxide as cause of warming is false. What it means us that all measures of emission control are worthless as a means of stopping or slowing global warming are worthless. This worthless category includes moneys spent to satisfy demands of Kyoto Protocol, Copenhagen global climate meeting, the Paris agreement that swindled 200 independent states into signing it and the last agreement at Bonn

LittleOil
December 8, 2017 9:48 pm

Richard Greene posted his blog above. Well worth a look. A useful resource.

http://elonionbloggle.blogspot.com.au/

Warren Blair
December 8, 2017 10:01 pm

The UN isn’t happy with this decision as AGW is key to their strategy . . .
Also unhappy with this Trump spanner-in-the-works:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/08/trump-touts-rejection-of-u-n-plan-to-force-mass-third-world-immigration/
World Government by unelected UN officials experiencing a few set-backs of late.
May there be more!

Auto
Reply to  Warren Blair
December 9, 2017 1:12 pm

Warren
+ quite a shed load!

Auto

martino
December 8, 2017 10:29 pm

When does the institute actually get to see the emails

Coeur de Lion
December 9, 2017 1:41 am

Overpeck is the Climategate conspirator who wanted to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period, the exact text of his email is on record. So that the Hockey Stick would stand up. I note inter alia in the university’s parting eulogy that he studied sea level rise due to AGW and polar ice cap melting. Eh?

Mike Sherman
December 9, 2017 12:48 pm

By line used Phoenix as a location but both U of A and the Pima County Superior Court are in Tucson not Phoenix. Just for future reference.

Stu
December 9, 2017 1:32 pm

They will appeal the decision, and then appeal it again, and then again…. using taxpayer money every step of the way.

greymouser70
Reply to  Stu
December 9, 2017 3:56 pm

Stu: I don’t think they can appeal this. The original appeal was sent back to the lower court by a higher court. They cannot appeal using the original argument since that has been rejected by the courts already. Unless they have a new “compelling” argument they are dead in the water. Rud maybe able to shed some light on this thought.

greyalien
December 10, 2017 9:09 am

This will continue one slow drip at a time, like a melting glacier or as I suspect as one deluge when the sun cycles down to a point where climate on earth will dive down to a decisive deep freeze and catch most of humanity off guard because of all the false dogma. We should be taking names of all those to burn at the stake for all the lives that will be lost.

greyalien
December 10, 2017 9:16 am

There should be severe Federal penalties for falsifying scientific data including jail time and monetary penalties, especially when Federal money is involved. Additionally, any scientific research that has Federal or State money involved should accessible at any time to review by for accuracy and compliance.

JCalvertN(UK)
December 10, 2017 10:44 am

RE: “skeptics of human-caused climate change”. That’s not me. (There’s bound to be some human-caused climate change – e,g, Urban Heat Islands just for a start!) I’m more of a sceptic of global warming ALARMISM, and the gross exaggerations, bad statistics, bad reasoning and bad science that go with it.

Ian H
December 10, 2017 11:44 am

The University of Arizona has been ordered to surrender emails by two UA scientists that a group claims will help prove that theories about human-caused climate change are false and part of a conspiracy.

The emails might indeed prove that there is a conspiracy. But you can’t prove that a scientific theory is false using emails. That is a scientific question and you need data for that.

Amber
December 10, 2017 11:40 pm

Look all this wasted energy on FOI requests . Forget it . All they have to do is create a fake dossier , take it to the FBI claiming something about Russia and Trump then fake an authorization on a FISA warrant and all the correspondence , E mails, phone calls will come spewing out . The Clinton caper is tried and true and I bet you can even do it for less than $12 million too .

tadchem
December 11, 2017 2:28 am

The entire ‘scientific’ premise of ‘global warming’ is based on the erroneous concept of ‘greenhouse gases’.
If CO2 in the atmosphere absorbs infrared energy from the sun and heats the atmosphere, what would happen to an atmosphere without CO2? The infrared energy it would have absorbed would pass through the atmosphere and strike the surface, where it would be absorbed and converted into heat.
Where would this heat go? It would heat the air that is in contact with the warmed surface.
Either way, the infrared energy ends up *heating the atmosphere*. The presence or absence of a gas that absorbs infrared energy does not affect the total amount of energy transferred to the atmosphere. The source of all that infrared energy is the sun. The gas may, at best, provide a secondary path for some of the energy to get absorbed by the atmosphere.
It is the adiabatic lapse rate (ADL) that governs the distribution of heat energy throughout the atmosphere. The ADL is easily derived by anybody who has taken Physical Chemistry or a second year physics course that includes thermodynamics.
dT/dh = – g/Cp (which is about – 2° C per thousand feet)
The only variable related to the *composition* of the atmosphere is the Heat Capacity at Constant Pressure (Cp), to which CO2 makes a very minor contribution.

Reply to  tadchem
December 11, 2017 9:26 am

tadchem December 11, 2017 at 2:28 am
The entire ‘scientific’ premise of ‘global warming’ is based on the erroneous concept of ‘greenhouse gases’.
If CO2 in the atmosphere absorbs infrared energy from the sun and heats the atmosphere, what would happen to an atmosphere without CO2? The infrared energy it would have absorbed would pass through the atmosphere and strike the surface, where it would be absorbed and converted into heat.

You have this backwards, it is the IR emitted from the earth which is absorbed by the CO2 in the atmosphere. ‘What would happen to an atmosphere without CO2?’ The IR would be directly lost to space and the earth would be colder.

bill
December 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Is that a temperature station fenced off in the parking lot ?????

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