By Freeman Dyson
My first heresy says that all the fuss about global warming is grossly exaggerated. Here I am opposing the holy brotherhood of climate model experts and the crowd of deluded citizens who believe the numbers predicted by the computer models. Of course, they say, I have no degree in meteorology and I am therefore not qualified to speak.
But I have studied the climate models and I know what they can do. The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields and farms and forests. They do not begin to describe the real world that we live in.
The real world is muddy and messy and full of things that we do not yet understand. It is much easier for a scientist to sit in an air-conditioned building and run computer models, than to put on winter clothes and measure what is really happening outside in the swamps and the clouds. That is why the climate model experts end up believing their own models.
1. The Need for Heretics
In the modern world, science and society often interact in a perverse way. We live in a technological society, and technology causes political problems. The politicians and the public expect science to provide answers to the problems. Scientific experts are paid and encouraged to provide answers. The public does not have much use for a scientist who says, “Sorry, but we don’t know”. The public prefers to listen to scientists who give confident answers to questions and make confident predictions of what will happen as a result of human activities. So it happens that the experts who talk publicly about politically contentious questions tend to speak more clearly than they think. They make confident predictions about the future, and end up believing their own predictions. Their predictions become dogmas which they do not question. The public is led to believe that the fashionable scientific dogmas are true, and it may sometimes happen that they are wrong. That is why heretics who question the dogmas are needed.
As a scientist I do not have much faith in predictions. Science is organized unpredictability. The best scientists like to arrange things in an experiment to be as unpredictable as possible, and then they do the experiment to see what will happen. You might say that if something is predictable then it is not science. When I make predictions, I am not speaking as a scientist. I am speaking as a story-teller, and my predictions are science-fiction rather than science. The predictions of science-fiction writers are notoriously inaccurate. Their purpose is to imagine what might happen rather than to describe what will happen. I will be telling stories that challenge the prevailing dogmas of today. The prevailing dogmas may be right, but they still need to be challenged. I am proud to be a heretic. The world always needs heretics to challenge the prevailing orthodoxies. Since I am heretic, I am accustomed to being in the minority. If I could persuade everyone to agree with me, I would not be a heretic.
We are lucky that we can be heretics today without any danger of being burned at the stake. But unfortunately I am an old heretic. Old heretics do not cut much ice. When you hear an old heretic talking, you can always say, “Too bad he has lost his marbles”, and pass on. What the world needs is young heretics. I am hoping that one or two of the people who read this piece may fill that role.
Two years ago, I was at Cornell University celebrating the life of Tommy Gold, a famous astronomer who died at a ripe old age. He was famous as a heretic, promoting unpopular ideas that usually turned out to be right. Long ago I was a guinea-pig in Tommy’s experiments on human hearing. He had a heretical idea that the human ear discriminates pitch by means of a set of tuned resonators with active electromechanical feedback. He published a paper explaining how the ear must work, [Gold, 1948]. He described how the vibrations of the inner ear must be converted into electrical signals which feed back into the mechanical motion, reinforcing the vibrations and increasing the sharpness of the resonance. The experts in auditory physiology ignored his work because he did not have a degree in physiology. Many years later, the experts discovered the two kinds of hair-cells in the inner ear that actually do the feedback as Tommy had predicted, one kind of hair-cell acting as electrical sensors and the other kind acting as mechanical drivers. It took the experts forty years to admit that he was right. Of course, I knew that he was right, because I had helped him do the experiments.
Later in his life, Tommy Gold promoted another heretical idea, that the oil and natural gas in the ground come up from deep in the mantle of the earth and have nothing to do with biology. Again the experts are sure that he is wrong, and he did not live long enough to change their minds. Just a few weeks before he died, some chemists at the Carnegie Institution in Washington did a beautiful experiment in a diamond anvil cell, [Scott et al., 2004]. They mixed together tiny quantities of three things that we know exist in the mantle of the earth, and observed them at the pressure and temperature appropriate to the mantle about two hundred kilometers down. The three things were calcium carbonate which is sedimentary rock, iron oxide which is a component of igneous rock, and water. These three things are certainly present when a slab of subducted ocean floor descends from a deep ocean trench into the mantle. The experiment showed that they react quickly to produce lots of methane, which is natural gas. Knowing the result of the experiment, we can be sure that big quantities of natural gas exist in the mantle two hundred kilometers down. We do not know how much of this natural gas pushes its way up through cracks and channels in the overlying rock to form the shallow reservoirs of natural gas that we are now burning. If the gas moves up rapidly enough, it will arrive intact in the cooler regions where the reservoirs are found. If it moves too slowly through the hot region, the methane may be reconverted to carbonate rock and water. The Carnegie Institute experiment shows that there is at least a possibility that Tommy Gold was right and the natural gas reservoirs are fed from deep below. The chemists sent an E-mail to Tommy Gold to tell him their result, and got back a message that he had died three days earlier. Now that he is dead, we need more heretics to take his place.
2. Climate and Land Management
The main subject of this piece is the problem of climate change. This is a contentious subject, involving politics and economics as well as science. The science is inextricably mixed up with politics. Everyone agrees that the climate is changing, but there are violently diverging opinions about the causes of change, about the consequences of change, and about possible remedies. I am promoting a heretical opinion, the first of three heresies that I will discuss in this piece.
My first heresy says that all the fuss about global warming is grossly exaggerated. Here I am opposing the holy brotherhood of climate model experts and the crowd of deluded citizens who believe the numbers predicted by the computer models. Of course, they say, I have no degree in meteorology and I am therefore not qualified to speak. But I have studied the climate models and I know what they can do. The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields and farms and forests. They do not begin to describe the real world that we live in. The real world is muddy and messy and full of things that we do not yet understand. It is much easier for a scientist to sit in an air-conditioned building and run computer models, than to put on winter clothes and measure what is really happening outside in the swamps and the clouds. That is why the climate model experts end up believing their own models.
There is no doubt that parts of the world are getting warmer, but the warming is not global. I am not saying that the warming does not cause problems. Obviously it does. Obviously we should be trying to understand it better. I am saying that the problems are grossly exaggerated. They take away money and attention from other problems that are more urgent and more important, such as poverty and infectious disease and public education and public health, and the preservation of living creatures on land and in the oceans, not to mention easy problems such as the timely construction of adequate dikes around the city of New Orleans.
I will discuss the global warming problem in detail because it is interesting, even though its importance is exaggerated. One of the main causes of warming is the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere resulting from our burning of fossil fuels such as oil and coal and natural gas. To understand the movement of carbon through the atmosphere and biosphere, we need to measure a lot of numbers. I do not want to confuse you with a lot of numbers, so I will ask you to remember just one number. The number that I ask you to remember is one hundredth of an inch per year. Now I will explain what this number means. Consider the half of the land area of the earth that is not desert or ice-cap or city or road or parking-lot. This is the half of the land that is covered with soil and supports vegetation of one kind or another. Every year, it absorbs and converts into biomass a certain fraction of the carbon dioxide that we emit into the atmosphere. Biomass means living creatures, plants and microbes and animals, and the organic materials that are left behind when the creatures die and decay. We don’t know how big a fraction of our emissions is absorbed by the land, since we have not measured the increase or decrease of the biomass. The number that I ask you to remember is the increase in thickness, averaged over one half of the land area of the planet, of the biomass that would result if all the carbon that we are emitting by burning fossil fuels were absorbed. The average increase in thickness is one hundredth of an inch per year.
The point of this calculation is the very favorable rate of exchange between carbon in the atmosphere and carbon in the soil. To stop the carbon in the atmosphere from increasing, we only need to grow the biomass in the soil by a hundredth of an inch per year. Good topsoil contains about ten percent biomass, [Schlesinger, 1977], so a hundredth of an inch of biomass growth means about a tenth of an inch of topsoil. Changes in farming practices such as no-till farming, avoiding the use of the plow, cause biomass to grow at least as fast as this. If we plant crops without plowing the soil, more of the biomass goes into roots which stay in the soil, and less returns to the atmosphere. If we use genetic engineering to put more biomass into roots, we can probably achieve much more rapid growth of topsoil. I conclude from this calculation that the problem of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is a problem of land management, not a problem of meteorology. No computer model of atmosphere and ocean can hope to predict the way we shall manage our land.
Here is another heretical thought. Instead of calculating world-wide averages of biomass growth, we may prefer to look at the problem locally. Consider a possible future, with China continuing to develop an industrial economy based largely on the burning of coal, and the United States deciding to absorb the resulting carbon dioxide by increasing the biomass in our topsoil. The quantity of biomass that can be accumulated in living plants and trees is limited, but there is no limit to the quantity that can be stored in topsoil. To grow topsoil on a massive scale may or may not be practical, depending on the economics of farming and forestry. It is at least a possibility to be seriously considered, that China could become rich by burning coal, while the United States could become environmentally virtuous by accumulating topsoil, with transport of carbon from mine in China to soil in America provided free of charge by the atmosphere, and the inventory of carbon in the atmosphere remaining constant. We should take such possibilities into account when we listen to predictions about climate change and fossil fuels. If biotechnology takes over the planet in the next fifty years, as computer technology has taken it over in the last fifty years, the rules of the climate game will be radically changed.
Read his entire essay here It is well worth your time.
Here is a video of his presentation:
FREEMAN DYSON is professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton. His professional interests are in mathematics and astronomy. Among his many books are Disturbing the Universe, Infinite in All Directions Origins of Life, From Eros to Gaia, Imagined Worlds, and The Sun, the Genome, and the Internet. His most recent book, Many Colored Glass: Reflections on the Place of Life in the Universe (Page Barbour Lectures), is being published this month by University of Virginia Press.
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I think Dr. Dyson should read and follow Dr. Richard Feynman’s comments on ‘cargo cult’ and scientific integrity. A scientist should present both sides and clearly recognize one might be wrong – low probability/high consequence risk. http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm
The famous fat tail. The worse model, the fatter tail. How do you know the tail is real and not just shadow of your imagination assisted by some unbased calculations called a model run?
Well generally I do agree with you. Don’t take sides, consider all evidence. But the politicized climate topic makes it impossible to look at the pure evidence as we all are part of the politics.
Dyson and Feynman were good friends even taking cross coutry road trips tigether as young men. Dyson describes this in one of his books.
Dyson knew Feynman well. Here’s an interesting article discussing some aspects of their thinking. https://nige.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/freeman-dyson-on-richard-feynmans-path-integral-quantum-field-theory/ Here’s a quote from Dyson’s book “Disturbing the Universe.”
Scientists who can explain others’ obtuse work are essential. Think of Lyell explaining Hutton.
Wonderful, Wonderful, Wonderful article……….and I have been an operational meteorologist for 35 years.
Like the idea of growing the quality of the top soils using the booming biosphere’s contribution to organic matter in the soil after it dies.
Actually, that’s already happening on a massive scale with no additional intervention from humans……..other than feeding the biosphere with more CO2.
It’s happening very slowly but as measured by the massive greening of our planet it’s happening indisputably.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth
In the mid/high latitudes that have well defined growing seasons for plants, the increase in biomass from the previous growing season is often discarded(leaves of deciduous trees or the entire annual plant or the top part of non woody stemmed perennials) and is left behind.
http://co2science.org/data/plant_growth/plantgrowth.php
Root mass below ground in many plants is increasing even more than vegetative growth above ground because of the increase in CO2. Woody stemmed plants(trees) and perennials have increasing/expanding root systems that would remain alive for decades.
Didn’t know much about Freeman Dyson before reading this article. It’s clear that the man is brilliant.
Mike Maguire
With the inherent lag between CO2 fertilisation, and man’s alleged uncontrolled CO2 emissions. We may indeed be up the creek without a paddle.
The next Guardian/BBC headline:
“Man’s extinction by vegetation strangulation!”
Simply excellent.. thx.
Good news. Farmers already are (and have been for decades) increasing biomass plowed back into topsoil. Thirty years ago common practice was to shoot for 20,000 plants per acre of corn, and today on good ground it’s approaching 40,000. Improvements in corn yields have been tremendous over the past decades and are predicted to continue. Also, there has been a move away from planting soybeans which also improves things because beans produce so little stover when compared with corn. Soybeans wouldn’t be planted at all but for the protein they produce. Corn’s drawback is that it overproduces carbohydrate and underproduces protein. Ethanol production eases this problem to a degree since producing ethanol consumes the carbohydrates but leaves the protein in the residue – which is still fed as dried distillers’ grains DDG.
Soybeans have been used as a break crop between continuous corn crops as the bean is a legume and fixes nitrogen in the soil .
Ethanol production from corn makes no economic sense and can only be viable with subsidies which distort economics .
It is very hard to manage no till with the corn stalks on the surface after harvest and plowing buries the stover and nitrogen is applied to help bacteria in the soil break down the fibrous stalks as the soil warms up .
I don’t see how ethanol works economically either. Since you have to use water to ferment corn it seems any energy produced would get used up drying the mash. I’ve heard the subsidy is 51 cents per gallon. I’m guessing that’s in the form of a tax credit.
Younger farmers are moving to strip till rather than no till, but most ground is still chisel plowed. Chisel plowing buries most of the stover – but less so than mouldboard plowing. It’s a regulated matter in the USA and it HAS improved soil runoff. I think Freeman Dyson’s understanding of agronomy could be improved but the larger point regarding topsoil as a carbon sink is a wonderful point to be made. It’s a flow of carbon that is already under management by farmers and their regulators.
“Somebody told me it was frightening how much topsoil we are losing each year, but I told that story around the campfire and nobody got scared.”
―Jack Handey
It has been calculated by the Cornell University that it takes 131000 BTU to produce 1 gallon of ethanol and that a gallon of ethanol produces 77000 BTU a deficit of 54ooo BTU for every gallon produced
HankHenry
“Corn’s drawback is that it overproduces carbohydrate and under produces protein.”
Sorry, but I’ll take issue with that statement.
Corn is corn, it has been so, I guess, before man inhabited the planet.
It’s man’s inappropriate use of cheap foodstuffs (corn) that’s damaging, not the crop itself.
I left out a phrase or two hoping readers wouldn’t need them. I meant “corn’s drawback AS A FEEDSTUFF FOR FARM ANIMALS is that it overproduces…BECAUSE FEED RATIONS OF CORN NEED TO BE BALANCED WITH INGREDIENTS CONTAINING HIGHER PERCENTAGES OF PROTEIN”
I also think that corn is a highly domesticated plant unrecognizable from the wild type, and I also don’t exactly get where your coming from with your objection.
HankHenry
Pretty significant oversight there Hank. Nor is there any need to shout.
Corn was created by Mexican Indians about 5000 years ago.
Its wild ancestor, teosinte, could hardly be more different, yet in terms of genes, ie protein-coding sequences, they’re identical. The ancient breeders managed the control segments of the plant’s genome, rather than changing its genes.
I wish I had a degree in railway engineering like Rajendra Pachauri and could chair the IPCC. But I’d keep my hands myself
“Here I am opposing the holy brotherhood of climate model experts and the crowd of deluded citizens who believe the numbers predicted by the computer models.”
Never mind the models…
Just look at the last 30 years worth of observed and recorded data. Don’t forget to include arctic sea ice.
The recent past record clearly shows it has warmed, doesn’t it?
So you somehow know that this won’t continue?
Cherry picking! The past thirty years might sorta badly fit the models, but the whole historic and plaleo records do not with the “CO2 is the major effect on climate” theme.
Tom,
Alarmists can tell the future as well as sceptics………..Ahem.
The difference is, sceptics admit they are fallible and can’t tell the future.
Griff’s statement “So you somehow know that this won’t continue?” is ridiculous as alarmists like him can’t prove that anything will happen in the future. Nor can we sceptics.
But we recognise our fallibility. I believe, the sign of a humble man.
Griffy ,
You must be a slow learner as you are on this site regularly why have you not learn’ t any thing? .
You are always\ around here and you should have seen the satellite and balloon records that show two tenths of a degree Celsius warming that is .2 degree Celsius increase in temperature since the satellites were launched in 1979 . The arctic sea ice has been fluctuating and the world has been recovering from the little ice age .’
How do you explain that the two longest running temperature records in the world from 1880 till present show no warming whatsoever and that it was warmer in the 1930 s than now .
I am happy to accept its warmed but
(a) I don’t accept the planet is going to drop dead because of it
(b) Emission control is the slowest least effective way to deal with the problem and I have no faith it will work
(c) Effective emission controls like Nuclear Power are off the table based on Ecocrazy criteria
On (c) you just bang on about renewables but at the end of the day mate it’s not up to you, if someone wants to put a nuclear power plant in you should be cheering them because they controlling emissions.
So given you Climate Activists want to go down path (b) and object to (c) it’s pretty obvious even you don’t believe (a).
This garbage will bubble on for years and eventually the real hard scientists will get called in to come and fix it. You may care to take a read of some history of ye olde British history
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/
Griff
“So you somehow know that this won’t continue?”
So you somehow know it will?
“Just look at the last 30 years worth of observed and recorded data. Don’t forget to include arctic sea ice.”
Satellite data shows NO WARMING apart from El Nino effects
Arctic sea ice is above what it has been for 90-95% of the Holocene, and is following almost exactly as would be dictated by the AMO. Thankfully it dropped from the huge extremes of the late 1970s to a level where travel and commerce is at least viable for a short period each year.
There is absolutely no sign of any real anthropocentric warming
And the slight warming we have had in the last 30 or so years is certainly NOT global.
Griff: “The recent past record clearly shows it has warmed, doesn’t it?”
It depends on where you begin. The Earth had a cooling trend from the 1940’s to the late 1970’s. This while CO2 emissions were increasing all during that time period. How does the CAGW speculation explain that? The CAGW speculation says the more CO2 in the atmosphere, the hotter it is supposed to get, yet here is a direct contradiction of that speculation.
“Never mind the models…Just look at the last 30 years worth of observed and recorded data. Don’t forget to include arctic sea ice. The recent past record clearly shows it has warmed, doesn’t it?”
Taking your suggestion Griff:
As an operational meteorologist during those entire 30 years, I agree that it has warmed…………beneficially.
Those 30 years have also featured the best weather and climate and especially best CO2 levels for most life on this planet in at least the last 1,000 years, when the planet was last this warm during the Medieval Warm Period.
You said to never mind the models…….but that’s the only way to create catastrophic, man made climate change from dangerous warming.
Give me some examples of recent catastrophe’s caused by the increase in CO2? OK, how about just some bad stuff that it may have played a role in(increase in heavy rains and heat waves in some places). I can show you massive benefits that outweigh those by a huge margin.
Since you specifically mentioned Arctic sea ice already and we know that polar bears are doing great what really bad things have happened because of this so far?
Again, like you said “Never mind the models” just comment on the last 30 years of observations and recorded data please, like you suggested”
After you list the bad stuff. I’ll tell you the good stuff that can be directly attributed to the increase in CO2 and the changes in the atmosphere, using the scientific principles of meteorology and my observations over the past 35 years as an operational meteorologist that predicts crop conditions and energy use from the effects of global weather.
Thanks in advance
Griff must have been busy to respond by listing all the bad things that have happened to life during the past 30 years because of the warming during that period………looking at just the observations and data.
Griff,
The planet has been warming for 300 years, but is still in a long-term cooling trend, as it has been for the past 3000 years or longer, since the Minoan Warm Period and prior Holocene Climatic Optimum.
Earth warmed from c. 1918 to 1945. Then, despite rising CO2, it cooled dramatically until 1977, when the PDO flipped. Then it warmed again for about 20 years, since when it has stayed flat, despite continued CO2 increases. Warming and cooling are natural cycles. If there is an effect from CO2, it’s negligible at best.
However, rising CO2 has helped to green the planet, so it’s a good thing. If it warms a little, that’s all the better. There is zero evidence for catastrophic effects from the CO2 increase.
“Just look at the last 30 years worth of observed and recorded data. Don’t forget to include arctic sea ice.”
No Griff, look at 30,000 years of data, then you’ll get an inkling of how the system works.
looking at 30 years is the equivalent of judging a persons health from a single heartbeat.
Griff,
Arctic sea ice has been growing since 2012. I know you are aware of this fact because of your public humiliation over being wrong about its extent this year, as your betters told you would be the case.
Arctic sea ice extent fell from a near-century high in 1979 to a record low for the satellite era in 2012. Since then, it has not made a new lower, low. No five year period in the satellite record had ever passed before without a new record low. The five year average for 2008-12 is lower than for 2013-17. By any measure, extent is growing.
Please quit citing Arctic sea ice as an indicator of global cooling, since in fact it has been growing for five years now.
[Rather, “Please quit citing Arctic sea ice as an indicator of global warming, since in fact it has been growing for five years now.” ? .mod]
Mod,
Yes. That’s what I meant to say. Please do cite it as an example of global cooling.
My bad. Glad you’re on the case.
30 years, good god fool, the earth is 4.3 billion years olde, and 30 years is tic. Now go take a math course, and see why your comment is foolish. There is NO such thing as a stable climate, so yes, things will change, they always have, and will keep doing so.
IPCC uses the 1961 – 1990 30yr average of weather for “climate” so what is your point? Use a made up number?
Just to be clear, and I recall the NYT’s expose on him years back (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html?_r=1&hp), the video above is from 2005, and the essay is from 2007. Is that correct?
garyh845
Your NYT article is nothing but complementary of Dyson, other than the last paragraph which is a bit of journalistic whizz bang to discredit the man and leave the audience with a final negative thought.
Miserable, partisan AGW reporting, with a veneer of gushing compliments, to disguise the treacherous stiletto of clumsy critique.
Curious – did you believe that I had a different view? I did not. I concur.
garyh845
Perhaps my misinterpretation of your post. I apologise if so.
I’m surprised the New York Times printed such a balanced article about a prominent climate skeptic.
Something from his linked essay that I think is very important is as follows:
“The warming is real, but it is mostly making cold places warmer rather than making hot places hotter. To represent this local warming by a global average is misleading.”
+1
This scientist is a heretic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
He is not however in any way right. Heretics are most often wrong.
And you, griff, are INVARIABLY WRONG !!
As in Star Trek, Dr. Soong is always wrong.
Griff
We have progressed from the rabid left wing Guardian, to the rabid left wing Wikipedia have we?
You are aware that you could become a Wikipedia ‘star’ by writing up your own climate change theories, don’t you? For what they’re worth.
I, Galileo, son of the late Vincenzo Galilei of Florence, being 70 years old… swear that I have always believed, believe now and, with God’s help, will in the future believe …
In 2005, Barry Marshall and Robin Warren were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their discovery that peptic ulcer disease (PUD) was primarily caused by Helicobacter pylori, a bacterium with affinity for acidic environments, such as the stomach.
21 years later.
Wegener was belittled from 1912 to 1965. Marshall and Warren were laughed at for more than 10 years. I wouldn’t be too quick to judge anyone’s ideas.
Griff now when you say it, the CACA models seem to tap into past consensus. A firmament above the flat Earth, trapping heat in a ethereal phlogiston-like gas, would explain the hockey-stick projections.
Why are my fellow skeptics so gullible when we are dealing with alternative theories? I expect the same rigour, or could the motive be political?
Every alternative I have ever seen involves applying defunct and dead classical physics to a problem you can’t use classical physics on. Given QM is the most tested and only theory in science that doesn’t have any alternative theory, it would be appreciated if your alternate theory didn’t violate it. Either that of please first give me an alternate theory to the whole of QM.
That was one incredibly credible dissertation!
In his essay, Freeman asks a prescient question: “if we could choose between the climate of today with a dry Sahara and the climate of six thousand years ago with a wet Sahara, should we prefer the climate of today?” His answer is “No.”
However, more importantly, I have never seen anyone try to make a case for what the optimum climate should be for Earth. The alarmists implicitly are making the case that we are currently experiencing the optimum and it should be preserved at all costs. What are the chances that after 4.5 billion years of changing climate, we just happened to have arrived at the optimum immediately prior to the Industrial Age? I think that the chances are slim! Then, the alarmists are advocating to maintain a climate for which they have no rational argument that it is optimal, and little probability that it is optimal! Who are the science D-Nye-ers? Those who want to maintain the status quo without justification, other than change is implicitly bad?
But there is no real evidence that CO2 has any effect on climate. There is plenty of scientific reasoning to support the idea that the climate sensivity of CO2 is zero. The AGW conjecture depends upon the existance of a radiant greenhouse effect caused by trace gases with LWIR absorption bands. But no such greenhouse effect has been observed anywhere in the solar system including the Earth. The radiant greenhouse effect is science fiction. Hence the AGW conjecture is science fiction.
There is no science reasoning that says that and Freeman Dyson being from a QM background will happily explain the greenhouse effect to you, he just doesn’t like the models.
There is every scientific reason to say what Will has said.
It called physics. The greenhouse conjecture is NOT physics, it is unproven assumption based nonsense.
There is a radiative process characterized in isolation, but, in the wild, convection precludes a statistically significant “greenhouse effect”.
You sound like all the normal Anti-QM and Anti GR crazies Andy, Science doesn’t takes votes or care what you think 🙂
Good thing science doesn’t take your vote, LdB.
You have proven yourself to not know what science actually is.
Produce a paper proving empirically that CO2 causes warming in our convectively controlled atmosphere.
Waiting !!
“Science doesn’t takes votes”
So you agree the consensus is NONSENSE.
Now perhaps you can get to the actual science…. or not.
I agree willhaus, Obviously Freeman is right, the AGW conjecture can only be science fiction.
But so what? Like any religion, belief in man made global warming offers damnation or salvation, but only in the future and without supporting evidence.
Like any religion, the CAGW narrative also depends both on authority of those that a lay public accedes to and the peer pressure from a popular consensus.
To me it seems rather apparent this issue is one of optics where perception trumps reality. I think the academic climate community with their decision to use evidence absent assessments in the form of peer-reviewed research have thoroughly convinced our educated and political elites….clearly they are winning.
And these people (our educated and political elites) will die before admitting they are wrong.
“But no such greenhouse effect has been observed anywhere in the solar system including the Earth.”
Do
you
com-
pre-
hend
LdB
Or is actual science too much for you.
QM says no …. prove it wrong or keep crying 🙂
Perhaps you don’t understand science you don’t believe the theory that covers radiative transfer you have to overturn it …. Science and I don’t have to do a thing 🙂
LdB. You are free to upscale your beliefs to celestial proportions if you like, but freedom of religion and conscience limits the adherence expectations you seem to impose on others.
I impose nothing on you, you can believe whatever you like. Science on the other hand has very specific rules that accepts no authority from anyone. Perhaps you may care to review how science works.
Total combined temperature rise over the last 16 hottest ever years is just 0.33 °C, an average of 0.035 °C for each hottest year (there were a number of tied years) based on NOAA data at https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201613
This is far less than daily temperature variations or temperature variation by travelling a few miles distance.
Freeman Dyson’s mention of subduction indicates that he’s yet to learn of the geologic heresy named “The Expanding Earth” by geologist Julius Maxlow. His work is readily accessible in book, kindle and YouTube formats.
By “work”, I assume you mean, “lunatic ravings”. The flat earth and geocentric theories have more going for them than the expanding earth fantasy.
That subduction occurs is an observation, ie a scientific fact. There is zero evidence in favor of an expanding earth, and all the evidence in the world against it.
The movement of continental plates has been measured. That tectonics occur is a fact.
Apparently, Australia is moving towards New Guinea at some 7cm/year !!
Australia and New Guinea are on the same plate, and that plate is moving towards Indonesia.
The tectonic speed record was set by the Indian Plate in racing across the Indian Ocean from Australia to its collision with Asia, which is thrusting up the Himalayas. In so doing, it passed over the Reunion Island hotspot, causing the Decca Trap flood basalt eruptions at the end of the Cretaceous Period.
But the Indian Plate has now been slowed down due to its running into the Eurasian Plate. Meanwhile, the Australian Plate continues to collide with the Eurasian Plate at about 5.6 cm (2.2 in) per year.
Until fairly recently in geologic time, the Indian and Indo-Australian Plates were conjoined.
Thanks for the fix-up.
Plate tectonics… hmmm. not something I have looked at much.
I’ll be long gone before any major collision happens !!!,
Gabro, I must say that you impress me beyond measure: not only have you completely missed the gist of Freeman Dyson’s note, you have also made up your mind about something that you have not read, let alone thought about. You have honored me by branding me a heretic! Awesome.
“They take away money and attention from other problems that are more urgent and more important, such as poverty and infectious disease and public education and public health..”
Yeah, but………These are real problems that require real problem solving and require politicians and “scientists” to take a stand on solutions that may not be popular. What better way to feed at the public trough and get reelected than screaming about a problem whose solution is far into the future, or isn’t really a problem; long after the politicians and scientists are dead. I weep for my family, I weep for my country, I weep
for my civilization when I see where these pathetic morons and power hungry people are taking us. Think of all the good that the trillions of dollars wasted on AGW and all the hours of problem solving wasted gaming this system. The situation is like the Catholic Church just before the Reformation. Hopefully we will have a Luther who will reveal all the machinations of the AGW crowd. Unfortunately, if we follow history after the Reformation, hundreds of thousands of people will be murdered, tortured, and imprisoned for their heretical thoughts and actions.
If you do not have any scientific proposals, what is wrong in the warming model of the IPCC, it has about no value. IPCC’s model is based on the positive water feedback and the equation of Myhre et al. for calcualting RF value of CO2. This simple model is applicable for calculating warming by CO2 during this century. If you cannot prove that this model is wrong, you have just an opinion but no scientific facts.
Of course the model is wrong. It cannot possibly be a complete model of earth’s climate system.
There is a Typo in the title: Warmimg
Freeman Dyson on ‘heretical’ thoughts about global warmimg
99% of scientists vs Freeman Dyson, glad I know where I stand
No one knows what percentage of scientists, however defined, supports the hypothesis that humans are mostly responsible for “climate change” and that this change is dangerous. The 97% figure comes from the Doran/Zimmerman survey of ~3000 government and academic “Earth scientists”, published in Eos in Jan 2009.
Here’s what Doran and his grad student Zimmerman actually reported:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2009EO030002/epdf
“An invitation to participate in the survey was sent to 10,257 Earth scientists. The database was built from Keane and Martinez [2007], which lists all geosciences faculty at reporting academic institutions, along with researchers at state geologic surveys associated with local universities, and researchers at U.S. federal research facilities (e.g., U.S. Geological Survey, NASA, and NOAA (U.S. National Oceanic and Atmo-spheric Administration) facilities; U.S. Department of Energy national laboratories; and so forth). To maximize the response rate, the survey was designed to take less than 2 minutes to complete, and it was administered by a professional online survey site ( http:// www . questionpro . com) that allowed one-time participation by those who received the invitation.
“This brief report addresses the two primary questions of the survey, which contained up to nine questions (the full study is given by Kendall Zimmerman [2008]):
1. When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?
2. Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?
“With 3146 individuals completing the survey, the participant response rate for the survey was 30.7%. This is a typical response rate for Web-based surveys [Cook etal., 2000; Kaplowitz etal., 2004]. Of our survey participants, 90% were from U.S. institutions and 6% were from Canadian institutions; the remaining 4% were from institutions in 21 other nations. More than 90% of participants had Ph.D.s, and 7% had master’s degrees. With survey participants asked to select a single category, the most common areas of expertise reported were geochemistry (15.5%), geo-physics (12%), and oceanography (10.5%). General geology, hydrology/ hydrogeology, and paleontology each accounted for 5–7% of the total respondents. Approximately 5% of the respondents were climate scientists, and 8.5% of the respondents indicated that more than 50% of their peer-reviewed publications in the past 5 years have been on the subject of climate change. While respondents’ names are kept private, the authors noted that the survey included participants with well-documented dissenting opinions on global warming theory.
“Results show that overall, 90% of participants answered “risen” to question1 and 82% answered yes to question 2.In general, as the level of active research and specialization in climate science increases, so does agreement with the two primary questions (Figure1). In our survey, the most specialized and knowledgeable respondents (with regard to climate change) are those who listed climate science as their area of expertise and who also have published more than 50% of their recent peer-reviewed papers on the subject of climate change (79individuals in total). Of these specialists, 96.2% (76 of 79) answered “risen” to question 1 and 97.4% (75 of 77) answered yes to question 2. This is in contrast to results of a recent Gallup poll (see http:// www . gallup . com/ poll/ 1615/ Environment . aspx) that suggests that only 58% of the general pub-lic would answer yes to our question2. The two areas of expertise in the survey with the smallest percentage of participants answering yes to question 2 were economic geology with 47% (48 of 103) and meteorology with 64% (23 of 36).
“It seems that the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long- term climate processes. The challenge, rather, appears to be how to effectively communicate this fact to policy makers and to a public that continues to mistakenly perceive debate among scientists.”
That is, among those whose careers depend upon keeping up the scare. Of course, as the authors intended, the media picked up on the bogus “97%” story, without pointing out that the sample was 75 out of 77 out of cherry=picked 79 out of 3146 respondents to a survey sent to more than 10,000 of the millions (at least) of scientists in the world, with none at all from the private sector represented.
Note also that “significant” isn’t defined in Question 2, and further that no Question 3 was asked, ie whether warming and more CO2 are “dangerous”.
99% is nothing, Saddam Hussein went for the full 100 percent in 2002.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/02/13/the-dictators-dilemma-to-win-with-95-percent-or-99/
Climate Science research proves the Sumerians didn’t invent the wheel. Doing research on the Wet Sahara mentioned in this article I stumbled upon evidence that the Sumerians didn’t invent the wheel.
Sumerians Didn’t Invent the Wheel
https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/11/11/sumarians-didnt-invent-the-wheel/
That particular painting is almost certainly not from 12,000 BC. The art of the Acacus Mountains in Libya date from 12,000 BC to AD 100.
Not so fast, here is another link
Many of these prehistoric chariots preserved in cave art are much older than literary sources of recorded history and therefore the statements of Herodotus and others must have been based on popular culture current at the time
https://www.temehu.com/chariots.htm
Sorry, but a Libyan site which imagines alien space farers is not a credible source.
Saharan rock art with chariots is from the “Horse Period”, 3200 to c. 1000 BP, ie 1250 BC to AD 950.
http://africanrockart.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Coulson-article-A10-proof.pdf
Reblogged this on gottadobetterthanthis and commented:
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Comments from the smartest man alive. Take the time to listen to his speech. His definition of “green technology” is wonderful. I suspect his vision here is closer than anyone can guess, but probably not close enough. “Prediction is hard, especially about the future.”
Still, this was a wonderful talk. Quite worth listening to.
Good to hear this again; it’s been a while – thanks for posting!
“Heretics” may be useful for coming up with unorthodox ideas that are occasionally correct, but they are certainly not reliable. Look up how Thomas Gold once decided that solar sails could not work based on a misunderstanding of physics that a smart high school student could see through. (He forgot about Doppler shift)
Pretty easy to say “Look up how…..” but more courteous to actually supply the reference – if you actually have one. Thanks for YOUR effort saving ALL the rest of us the trouble. You could well be right.
I would question Freeman Dyson’s belief that the underlying models work well for ocean circulation as a book written by a former UN employee working on pollution spills that I read a while back said otherwise. It was an honest look at global warming by at least a lukewarmer who found the evidence unconvincing and disputed the certainty the IPCC ascribed to their predictions.
Thanks for reprinting this, Anthony. Always a pleasure to reread the crystal-clear pros of Prof. Dyson.