A Red Team to end the climate wars: fun but likely to fail.

A Red Team to end the climate wars: fun but likely to fail.

By Larry Kummer. From the Fabius Maximus website.

Summary: Team Trump has proposed a Red Team project to resolve the climate debates. It’s an exciting promise of an easy solution to the public policy gridlock. It will make the situation worse.

 

The climate debate has — like so many other policy debates — become dominated by a proposal by Team Trump. They suggest some kind of “Red Team vs. Blue Team” debate about climate change. These articles show there is little agreement about the structure or goals of the project.

What is “Red Teaming”?

To understand these proposals, first turn to the Red Team Journal (founded 1997). Start with “A Balanced View” of Red Teaming.

“Defined loosely, red teaming is the practice of viewing a problem from an adversary or competitor’s perspective. The goal of most red teams is to enhance decision making, either by specifying the adversary’s preferences and strategies or by simply acting as a devil’s advocate. Red teaming may be more or less structured, and a wide range of approaches exists. In the past several years, red teaming has been applied increasingly to issues of security, although the practice is potentially much broader. Business strategists, for example, can benefit from weighing possible courses of action from a competitor’s point of view. …

“Despite the many advantages of candid red teaming, the practice is subject to various limitations and constraints. A red team cannot predict with certainty what an adversary will do, nor can it uncover all possible weaknesses in a concept, plan, or system. Red teams that claim these abilities overstate the benefits of red teaming and invariably mislead their clients. Decision makers who attempt to use a red team to divine specific events risk doing worse than nothing.”

Red Teams work well to analyze an organization’s positioning and actions vs. an adversary or competitor. It is a natural tool for the military and security fields, and works well for business strategy. A Red Team artificially creates divisions within an organization, breaking consensus thinking and facilitating growth of new perspectives. No matter what the outcome, there is little risk to the organization or its staff from these projects. For example, Army officers gaming the Opposing Force in a war game will not be seen as the real enemy (Nazis, Russians, etc).

But there is no enemy organization in the climate debates, no OpFor. The existing divisions in our climate science institutions are part of the problem. Climate science today has broken into two tribes (of unequal size). Worse, their work has become politicized and tied to the polarized politics of America. Now some advocate pouring kerosene on these flames by pitting the two sides in a head to head confrontation, like a World Series of Climate Science — with the crowds cheering “their” team. It would take divine intervention for this to produce anything useful — for either climate science or the public policy debate.

A Red Team is not a relevant tool to help resolve the climate debates. It is the opposite of what we need today.

Alternative Analysis

Red Teams are one form of Alternative Analysis (A. A.). From the Red Team Journal.

“Alternative analysis is the superclass of techniques of which red teaming may be considered a member. As with red teaming, these techniques are designed to help debias thinking, enhance decision making, and avoid surprise.

“According to Fishbein and Treverton, ‘alternative analysis seeks to help analysts and policy-makers stretch their thinking through structured techniques that challenge underlying assumptions and broaden the range of possible outcomes considered.’ They further clarify the term by specifying that ‘Alternative analysis includes techniques to challenge analytic assumptions (e.g. devil’s advocacy), and those to expand the range of possible outcomes considered (e.g. what-if analysis, and alternative scenarios).'”

I doubt any A.A. tool will advance the state of climate science. I have seen no historical examples of this, let alone successful examples. But some forms of A. A. are appropriate tools to break the public policy paralysis.

 

Call in experts to answer a question

How can A.A. methods be used in the climate wars? First, what is the key question to answer? The answer should make a difference in the debate. It should be doable with the time and funds available. Many of the proposals flunk one or both of these, such as calls to review the IPCC’s Working Group I report — the physical science. The time and money required to this adequately would be immense.

Since 2009 I have had recommendations to re-start the public policy engines. Especially this, which fits these criteria. Others have made similar proposals.

  1. A review of the climate forecasting models by a multidisciplinary team of relevant experts who have not been central players in this debate. Include a broader pool than those who have dominated the field, such as geologists, chemists, statisticians and software engineers.

Models are the fulcrum in the climate policy debate, turning theory and data into forecasts that are the primary input to the climate policy debate. There has been little work done to validate them (see this list of the literature and this example). Model validation is a well-established field. With money and time a group could investigate and evaluate one or more of the major modeling systems. Whatever the result, we would know more than we know today.

It is an operationally simple proposal, using people uninvolved in the climate wars, likely to produce useful results. So neither side will like it. That’s today’s America!

 

It’s not a silver bullet

Experts in alternative analysis warn that these are tools, not miracles. The success rate of these projects is unknown, but there are a lot of failures. Even simple projects often result in organizational discord or even chaos, as with the 2016 Red Team examination of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) Clinical Center.

Also note that this is not the first A.A. project in the climate wars. The Berkeley Earth project raised $2.5 million (including $150,000 from the Koch Foundation) to fund a group of scientists who reanalyzed the Earth’s surface temperature record. They published their initial findings in 2012, with no visible effect on either the debate among scientists or the public policy debate. See Wikipedia for details.

 

An ominous example of A.A. failure

An extreme example of a failure of A.A. is the 1976 “Team B” project. A group of hawks accused the CIA of underestimating Soviet military capability. They were given free reign to produce an analysis more acceptable to the GOP’s hawks. They did so, producing what became politically useful justifications for Reagan’s massive military buildup. The CIA later concluded

“In retrospect, and with the Team B report and records now largely declassified, it is possible to see that virtually all of Team B’s criticisms of the NIE proved to be wrong. …While Team B was estimating a relentless, continuing buildup at a growing pace, it was later learned that, in fact, Soviet leaders had just cut back the rate of spending on their military effort and would not increase it for the next nine years {in response to the Reagan buildup}. “

The USSR never built directed energy weapons, mobile ABM systems, and anti-satellite systems. The Soviet Empire collapsed in 1989 and it died in 1991. In fact, the Team B conclusions were backwards, as later analysis with data from Soviet records found that US intelligence exaggerated Soviet aggressiveness and military capabilities. See the details here.

The members were selected for their politically useful views. Most were later rewarded for their false analysis by promotion to high offices.

This is what many scientists and politicians fear will happen with any “Red Team” project conducted by the Trump Administration. They will stack the Team B with people who will produce the desired conclusions, then use the report to drive new public policy measures. But this is not 1976, nor is Team Trump the hawk neocons at the peak of their cunning. In today’s politically polarized America, a stacked Red Team will be seen as illegitimate by most climate scientists and much of the public. It will further the politicization of science, resolve nothing, and accomplish nothing.

We can do better. But we probably won’t.

A a proposal for a “Team B” project

Dr. Roy Spencer (meteorologist, principal research scientist at U AL-Huntsville) proposes a “Team B” project for climate science in “A Global Warming Red Team Warning: Do NOT Strive for Consensus with the Blue Team” at his website. It’s designed to document the skeptic position on a broad array of climate-related questions.

His proposal has two potential problems. First, I doubt there is a consistent skeptic paradigm to contrast with that expressed in the IPCC’s WGI report of AR5. The skeptics’ have a wide range of beliefs, which will add up to a grab-bag of ideas. Second, this probably will polarize the climate science field into opposition to their work (that would be my reaction if I were a climate scientist). Also, it is unlikely to have the political effect he desires. I doubt politicians will stake their careers on theories which most climate scientists loudly oppose.

For More Information

Climate scientists Judith Curry has some valuable insights about this proposal at Climate Etc.

For more information about this vital issue see the posts about the RCPs, about the keys to understanding climate change and these posts about the politics of climate change…

  1. Important: climate scientists can restart the climate change debate – & win.
  2. We can end the climate policy wars: demand a test of the models.
  3. How we broke the climate change debates. Lessons learned for the future.
  4. A story of the climate change debate. How it ran; why it failed.
0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

294 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Engineer_1
July 8, 2017 5:05 pm

Stunning amount of energy being consumed around this strawman. The “Red Team” or “Team B” is not seen as the solution, but a tool to help shift perspectives that are entrenched, so that another look may provide information not seen before to help with the solution. It is a perfectly valid approach, but will be resisted due to the Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

Reply to  Engineer_1
July 8, 2017 7:34 pm

Engineer,
“but a tool to help shift perspectives that are entrenched, so that another look may provide information not seen before to help with the solution.”
There are scores of different versions of this idea floating about. There are probably a dozen on just this thread alone. What makes your view definitive over all the others?

Engineer_1
Reply to  Editor of the Fabius Maximus website
July 8, 2017 9:48 pm

Editor of the Fabius Maximus website,
Did I say my view was definitive? Perhaps it is, or perhaps it isn’t. It is another component in the tool kit. Usually, no one demands a definitive proof that I have chosen the correct tool, although I have had this happen from time to time by managers who have distinguished themselves by their actions to be high priests of the Peter Principle. Your mileage may vary, or perspective, depending on the circumstances. But I have yet seen no reason to exclude this tool. It is, as I pointed out before, not the solution, but a possible way to illuminate the path to a solution. Good hearing from you in any case.

Reply to  Engineer_1
July 8, 2017 7:50 pm

You wrote “another look may provide information not seen before to help with the solution. It is a perfectly valid approach but will be resisted due to the Iron Law of Bureaucracy”
Which is why the model that I have been touting in my Post “Climate Change Deciphered”.needs to be seriously considered. It is a completely different paradigm, supported by empirical data that the Bureaucracy cannot refute.

Robert B
July 8, 2017 5:07 pm

“But there is no enemy organization in the climate debates”
The climategate emails showed that there are- journal gate keepers and “those in the pay of big oil”. If anything, this stupidity gets reinforced with a red team but policy makers need a team that would find flaws with the consensus. Your analogy fails because the red team is to support the null hypothesis ie nothing that needs immediate intervention is happening.

Catcracking
July 8, 2017 5:52 pm

Robert
Can you clarify where you found in the climate gate emails showed who is in the pay of big oil (I read a lot of them and all I saw was conniving, distorting the facts and blackballing anyone who did not support their agenda.
Even if BIG Oil is involved, there is nothing illegal or unprofessional about any company financing climate research to protect their stockholders interests.

Roger Knights
Reply to  Catcracking
July 8, 2017 8:19 pm

I suspect Robert B was alluding to the fact that CRU got some funding from Shell Oil.

Robert B
Reply to  Roger Knights
July 9, 2017 5:10 am

They highlighted the gate keeping to stop publications from those with a supposedly nefarious intent. Its in quotation marks because its the opinions of others not myself.

Robert B
Reply to  Catcracking
July 9, 2017 5:12 am

Surely its obvious that “gate keeper” is the slur.

Suma
July 8, 2017 6:00 pm

I think Trump needs to run a TV documentary about his climate issue.
He is under severe criticism for his policy on climate change. He must defend his standpoint and explain to the world why he decided to stay away from Paris agreement. That documentary should be widely publicised all over the media in a way that most people around the world become aware what is happening with the Climate Science related research and its economic implications. In that documentary, Donald Trump would present some video clips and interviews from renowned well-reputed scientists, in support. Those clips/ interviews will definitely strengthen his standpoints on climate issues. It will also address common questions as often used to promote AGWC propaganda. Those are:
1. 97% consensus.
2. Future of our children and grandchildren.
3. Global extremes.
4. Can we explain natural variation part in climate? Can model capture those?
5. If we can not explain what is the role of the sun and volcano upto present day then how can the model predict the future without knowing the influence of natural factor?
Those will be prepared in a very clear and concise way thinking in mind about general public. I strongly urge Donald Trump to prepare and run that documentary to stop negative promotion against him. That documentary where Trump will be explaining his policy on climate with supporting evidences could be a step forward to climate science (which is misrepresented to general public for so long).

richard verney
July 8, 2017 6:47 pm

We know that the US has not warmed since the 1930s. The US has the best sampling and best temperature data of any continent, so the first questions I would ask are:
Whilst the US is only a relatively small percentage of the land mass/area of the Northern Hemisphere, can anyone detail valid reasons as to why the behavoir of the US would not be representative of the land mass/area of the Northern Hemisphere?
The US has mountain ranges, valleys, rivers, lakes, deserts, coastal regions, forests, plains, agriculture etc. Its geographical and topographical features are not in any way unusual or unique, and would appear typical of the land making up the Northern Hemisphere.
Is there any valid reason why the US should be an outlier in its behavoir? If there is a valid reason, what is the reason?
What is the reason why the US has not warmed, but the rest of the Northern Hemisphere has warmed (if indeed the NH has truly warmed)?

Luis Anastasia
Reply to  richard verney
July 8, 2017 6:53 pm

You cannot compare the USA of the 1930’s with the USA of today. In 1959 the composition of the USA was drastically altered by the addition of Alaska and Hawaii as states. Because of Alaska’s size and it’s high latitude position, the “average” temperature of the USA changes.

Roger Knights
Reply to  Luis Anastasia
July 8, 2017 8:36 pm

It’s standard practice in this field to ensure apples-to-apples comparisons by comparing the “contiguous” United States — i.e., the lower 48.

TA
Reply to  Luis Anastasia
July 8, 2017 9:24 pm

What is the average temperature of the United States?

gbaikie
Reply to  Luis Anastasia
July 8, 2017 11:44 pm

–What is the average temperature of the United States?–
Apparently:
“For the entire United States, excluding Hawaii and Alaska, the year averages 52.7 °F (11.5 °C).”
https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/average-annual-state-temperatures.php

gbaikie
Reply to  Luis Anastasia
July 8, 2017 11:49 pm

Were global average temperature 20 C instead of about 15 C, what would US average temperature be?

gbaikie
Reply to  Luis Anastasia
July 9, 2017 12:26 am

If cities in warmer southern regions of US, have Urban Heat Island Effect which increase the average temperature by 10 C, is this a problem?
“Roads, rooftops and parking lots are heating Dallas up almost 20 degrees hotter than land outside of the city says a new study by the Texas Trees Foundation.”
http://www.greensourcedfw.org/articles/Dallas-urban-heat-island-texas-trees-symposium
[I assume 20 F warmer which is 11 C ]
Could be a more important problem as compared to 2 C global warming in a century?
[Urban heat island effect is not caused by CO2 levels]

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  gbaikie
July 9, 2017 7:57 am

gbaike,
UHI comes under the description of land-use changes, which rarely gets mentioned by the most rabid CO2 extremists.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  richard verney
July 8, 2017 9:19 pm

Richard,
I suggest that you look at the climate zone animation recently provided by David Middleton. Unless the US has the same climate zones, and in the same areal proportion as the rest of the northern hemisphere, the US would not be a representative sample.

TA
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
July 8, 2017 9:35 pm

“Unless the US has the same climate zones, and in the same areal proportion as the rest of the northern hemisphere, the US would not be a representative sample.”
Yeah, but the U.S. temperature profile resembles temperature profiles from around the northern hemisphere, so the U.S. surface temperature profile *does* represent the rest of the northern hemisphere.
Here’s an example of the 1999 Hansen U.S. surface temperature chart:comment image
And a surface temperature chart from Finland, almost half-way around the world from the U.S.:comment image
Do you see the similarities?
There are lots of other charts of countries in both hemispheres that have this same profile: the 1930’s being as hot or hotter than subsequent years. None of these charts resembles the Global Hockey Stick surface temperature chart.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  TA
July 8, 2017 9:47 pm

TA,
Yes, I see the similarities. However, they are NOT the same. Unless you are begging to be criticized by the alarmists for poor sampling protocol, I suggest that the US NOT be used as a proxy for the entire northern hemisphere.

richard verney
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
July 9, 2017 4:56 am

Of course, Climate is regional, not global, and of course, the impact of Climate change is regional, not global, such that there has never been GLOBAL warming this past 70 years or so, but my point is that the (contiguous) US covers a wide latitude band (or at any rate a sufficiently wide latitude band to be representative of the latitudes at which most Northern Hemisphere people live) and has a wide variety of geographical and topographical features, and a range of climatic zones.
The US is a very divers country and not like say Luxembourg or Denmark, not a small island such as Iceland, not a country like the UK which is heavily influenced by one particular sea and the Gulf Stream etc.
Whilst I am only interested in the Northern Hemisphere, because the Southern Hemisphere is largely ocean and without good data (spatial and historic), the US is a very diverse country unlike say Australia.
CO2 is (at high altitude) a well mixed gas, and its effect (subject feedbacks) should be the same across the entirety of the Northern Hemisphere (at any rate in the populated areas of the Northern Hemisphere). If a significant land mass fairly typical of the Northern Hemisphere and over which we have the best data is not warming, this seriously calls into question whether other areas of the Northern Hemisphere are truly warming or whether it is perceived that those areas are warming only because of poor data.
TA has pointed out Finland, but the same is so in Iceland and Greenland which both show their warmest era to be the late 1930s/1940s, and Russia has noted that their high latitude stations are gradually dropping out of the data sets, and these stations show no warming since the 1940s.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  richard verney
July 9, 2017 8:25 am

Richard,
There is no doubt that there are problems with a changing meteorological network in the northern hemisphere, and a scarcity of good stations in the southern hemisphere. But, a proposal to use the US as a proxy for the northern hemisphere is fraught with problems greater than changing station siting or density.
For starters, the topography of the US is unique, with major NS mountain chains, the California-Oregon Coast Range, the Rocky Mountains, and the Appalachian Mountains intercepting the prevailing west to east winds and storm systems. That creates rain shadows that impact humidity and temperature. The US is on the east side of the very wide Pacific ocean, while Europe is on the east side of a narrower Atlantic. Much of Western Europe is, however, moderated in temperature by the tropical Gulf Stream. The European-Asia land mass is larger than North America, leading to Winter temperatures in Nova Sibersk that make Minnesotans envious.
The bottom line is that the meteorological monitoring system was never intended for climatological studies and attempting to press it into service for such is a classic case of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, Mosher’s self-congratulatory remarks not withstanding.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  richard verney
July 9, 2017 8:33 am

Richard,
You said, “CO2 is (at high altitude) a well mixed gas, and its effect (subject feedbacks) should be the same across the entirety of the Northern Hemisphere (at any rate in the populated areas of the Northern Hemisphere).”
Apparently you have not seen the 2 1/2D animation of CO2 derived from the OCO-2 satellite. It is obvious from the animation and other maps that there are measurable variations and generally the CO2 concentrations seem to be lower at higher elevations. You do not provide a definition of “well mixed.” However, CO2 is anything but uniform across “the entirety of the Northern Hemisphere.”

richard verney
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
July 9, 2017 11:34 am

Of course I have seen the OCO-2 data, and commented a number of times on it. Everything is relative and what is sufficient for practical purposes.
Essentially at high altitude, CO2 varies between about 385 ppm to about 405 ppm. Say as a ball park figure, about 395 +/- 10 ppm.
Is that well mixed? I would say yes for practical purposes, since there is relatively little forcing over a +/- 10 ppm range.
At low altitude CO2 can vary by about 350 ppm (or even more). So for example one can see ranges of CO2 varying between say about 300ppm and 650 ppm. That I would not say is well mixed.
So for example, see CO2 data from Giessen from samples taken at low altitude. This example is not the most extreme variation that I have seen.
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/giessen_background.jpg
It is because the high variability of Co2 at low altitude that the IPCC dismisses the Beck historical chemical reconstruction of CO2 levels as not being representative of CO2 levels at any given time.

richard verney
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
July 9, 2017 12:00 pm

Clyde
You state:

The bottom line is that the meteorological monitoring system was never intended for climatological studies and attempting to press it into service for such is a classic case of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear</blockquote.
I fully concur with that observation, and that is the root of the issue; the data we posses is not fit for scientific purpose, and that is why so many are sceptical about the claims underlying AGW.
You state:

But, a proposal to use the US as a proxy for the northern hemisphere is fraught with problems greater than changing station siting or density.

I am not going as far as saying that the US is a proxy, still less a good proxy for all the Northern Hemisphere. What I saying is that we have the best and most complete data on the US, and this data suggests that there is no warming since the highs of the 1930s, and may be even slight cooling, and that there is no obvious reason why the US, which is not an insignificant land mass and fairly typical of land masses in the Northern Hemisphere, should be an outlier such that it calls into question the claim that the rest of the Northern Hemisphere is truly warming, and calls into question whether there is simply a perception of warming due to poor quality and inadequate data and/or the manner in which that data is presented (by which I include all adjustments, homenisation, siting issues, UHI, station drop outs, the change to more airport stations and less rural station data etc).
I consider there needs to be strong evidence as to why the US should be an outlier, and I have seen none produced.

Matt G
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
July 9, 2017 5:28 pm

I am afraid you are wrong because the US chart was very similar to the NH.
http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy8/SciMattG/NH%20temperatures%201982_zpsplh6gz9e.png

Matt G
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
July 9, 2017 6:01 pm

Monthly weather review provided trend data around selected world cities and the northern hemisphere all had similar trends. Even southern hemisphere cities had similar trends, but less pronounced.
http://www.odlt.org/dcd/docs/kincer-061-09-0251.pdf

Reply to  Matt G
July 9, 2017 7:38 pm

Richard V, just follow the url in my name. 3 pages with various averages of the air force’s surface data set, plus even deeper reports at SourceForge. I do A lot of reporting at the continent and larger scales, as well as lat bands, and boxes. Get the beta reports, and I will answer any question you have.
There is warming, but it is almost all natural, min T just follows dew point temps, and moving the warm pools in the ocean around changes the distribution over land, and that changes the land average temp, and gat.

gbaikie
Reply to  richard verney
July 9, 2017 2:19 pm

–Clyde Spencer
July 9, 2017 at 7:57 am
gbaike,
UHI comes under the description of land-use changes, which rarely gets mentioned by the most rabid CO2 extremists.–
Land use generally related to land use which increases CO2. UHI effect doesn’t cause a global increase in temperature. For couple reason, one human live in small area of the world- a small part of the land area. And Earth is mostly covered by oceans- or land area temperature is insignificant in terms of global temperature. Or global land area temperature average temperature isn’t 15 C. Or reason Earth average temperature is 15 C, is due to the high average temperature of the vast tropical ocean region.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  gbaikie
July 9, 2017 3:05 pm

gbaikie,
While land clearing for agriculture alters the local carbon cycle by substituting fast-growing cultivars, which use CO2 differently than trees, plowing and tilling also change the surface reflectivity by exposing bare soil. Soils can vary from light tan (relatively high reflectivity), to black (very low reflectivity). If crop residue is burned, which used to be common for rice in northern California, then the ash also makes for low reflectivity for a period of time, increasing the absorption of sunlight. The bottom line is that the reflectivity (and heating)is probably more variable than prior to cultivation, particularly if grasslands or evergreens were converted to agricultural fields.
The impact of UHI is still out to jury, at least in my mind. If one looks at major metropolitan areas in the US, such as Los Angeles or Silicon Valley, areas that were formerly either natural, or wheat and fruit orchards, are now covered in concrete and asphalt. That is, hundreds of square miles have been converted to dark, heat-retaining surface covers with little transpiration compared to the past. While BEST denies having found an influence of UHI beyond the built up areas, I find it improbable that the heated air doesn’t warm rural areas downwind. NASA studies have confirmed alteration of the microclimate downwind for tens of miles from Atlanta (GA).

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  richard verney
July 9, 2017 3:17 pm

Richard Verney,
You said, “I consider there needs to be strong evidence as to why the US should be an outlier, and I have seen none produced.”
For what it is worth, three or four years ago I attended a local panel discussion on ‘climate change.’ One of the panel members was the meteorologist for Wright-Patterson AFB (Dayton, OH). He showed a slide of the high and low temperatures for the base for the last 50 years. There was no discernable trend for either series. Being a military installation, there has been no encroachment by urbanization. The officers would frown on losing their golf course! So, the UHI effect may be stronger than usually acknowledged because civilian airports are rarely protected in the same manner from development. It is only anecdotal, but it is something someone should probably explore.

Dr. Strangelove
July 8, 2017 8:40 pm

Red Girl vs. Team Alarmists, let’s ‘debate’ in the library

willhaas
July 8, 2017 10:54 pm

The debate has been going on for decades and lately has become more of a religious debate then a science debate. Religious debates have no end. The problem with the science is that one cannot perform definitive experiments with global climate. We cannot run decades of climate progression over again with variables set differently so as to ascertain their effect.

3x2
July 9, 2017 1:35 am

The red/blue team will not work because ‘global warming’ has become a political issue. That means that the findings of one ‘team’ or the other will be dismissed depending upon ones political outlook.
It’s a typical scientific solution to problem that scientists don’t understand.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  3x2
July 9, 2017 8:03 am

3×2,
If the Red Team won the debate, then it would at least give us the satisfaction of being able to call the other political side “deniers.” Currently, they are being insufferably pretentious because they claim support from the infamous 97%. Pull that rug out from under them, and then they would have to resort to being honest — they have an unprovable belief system that freedom of religion allows them to enjoy.

Reply to  Clyde Spencer
July 10, 2017 4:10 pm

Blue Team: 100 years from now the oceans will turn red.
okay, Red Team, now prove us wrong.
How does one debate predictions of the future?
Why should one debate predictions?

Keith
July 9, 2017 1:36 am

Above, there are comments to the effect that modeling and its critical evaluation would be key to the red team blue team approach. Fair enough, but another key issue IMO, is a proper historical perspective. There are excellent oxygen isotope data to show that natural variability between glacial and interglacial periods may be 10 deg C. On a shorter timeframe, Andy May reviewed the data to show how the Holocene maximum was warmer than the present. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/08/a-holocene-temperature-reconstruction-part-3-the-nh-and-arctic/ This display of natural variability is key to demonstrate that present models with only minor natural variability programmed in are erroneous. It is also the case that in some periods, there is evidence for fast changes over short time periods. http://notrickszone.com/2017/07/03/already-285-scientific-papers-published-in-2017-support-a-skeptical-position-on-climate-alarm/#sthash.Y6ZMUf1J.dpbs

Yogi Bear
July 9, 2017 4:38 am

“But there is no enemy organization in the climate debates, no OpFor.”
According to the Blue Team, the enemy is of our own making, global warming. An effective Red Team would analyse the benefits of warming, and analyse the risks of abrupt natural cooling events that the Blue Team overlook. The latter could easily be the real threat to humanity through the next 250 years.
“How can A.A. methods be used in the climate wars? First, what is the key question to answer?”
Are the major ocean modes of ENSO and the AMO strongly solar driven?

lloydr56
July 9, 2017 5:25 am

Intellectually the great challenge is to realize that where we are presented with certainty, there is actually great uncertainty. Eventually one comes to the conclusion that the models, borrowed from the world of fluid dynamics where they have been extremely successful, are not fit for purpose when it comes to understanding the climate of the world. This obviously challenges the careers of many people, who claim to be the specialists who have arrived at general knowledge of a big complex subject. It probably pleases many people in the public to think that now we have computers, we can do wonderful things like model the climate of the world. As for downstream effects like polar bears, it is going to be tough to grapple with boomer environmentalism, sometimes based on good evidence, sometimes not. There’s a lot to be said for sticking with Holocene proxies. What are the major natural factors influencing global temperature? What is the sequence of events in big changes like glaciation and de-glaciation? Where are we today in terms of these big natural factors? Who knows, there might be some room in there for man-made CO2 to explain something.

Luis
July 9, 2017 6:55 am

This debate has gone on for more than 20 years, will another 20 settle this? We should hope so!
Don’t screw with temperature records past, present and future. Stop with the fake news and don’t hide the real news. Not sure who to trust when money is involved.

July 9, 2017 7:06 am

I see the two comment threads as an insight into the locker room talk of two opposing teams, speculating about a possible upcoming match. On the one side is the World Champion, internationally favored, heavily sponsored and funded Consensus Team. Their talk, naturally is about all their winning (having never played away from home), how they have all the superstars and the other side are just hacks.
On the other side is the Outcast Team with a small but vocal fanbase, no acknowledged funding or sponsorship, and full of internal discord and disorganization. They are united mainly in their opposition to the consensus. Yet, in a surprising recent twist, they have a chance to form the home side. So they talk of all the sneaky tricks and cheating done by the other side, and the unseemly behavior of consensus leaders.
Both sides speak of attacking the credibility of the other team, and this is the discouraging part. To me, the exercise is intended to take a widely supported plan of action, poke holes to see if it holds water, and severely kick the tires to see if it goes anywhere without breaking down.
The simplest summary of the consensus is:
Humans are making the planet warmer.
The warming is dangerous.
Government can stop it.
The Red team is to go on offense, attacking and attempting to score against the consensus position. The Blue team is to go on defence, presenting data, facts and information to resist the assertions from the other side. Both sides should play the ball, not the man. The purpose is to reach a more complete and solid understanding of what is known and unknown about the functioning of our complex climate system. And from there what can be expected in the future.I see the two comment threads as an insight into the locker room talk of two opposing teams, speculating about a possible upcoming match. On the one side is the World Champion, internationally favored, heavily sponsored and funded Consensus Team. Their talk, naturally is about all their winning (having never played away from home), how they have all the superstars and the other side are just hacks.
On the other side is the Outcast Team with a small but vocal fanbase, no acknowledged funding or sponsorship, and full of internal discord and disorganization. They are united mainly in their opposition to the consensus. Yet, in a surprising recent twist, they have a chance to form the home side. So they talk of all the sneaky tricks and cheating done by the other side, and the unseemly behavior of consensus leaders.
Both sides speak of attacking the credibility of the other team, and this is the discouraging part. To me, the exercise is intended to take a widely supported plan of action, poke holes to see if it holds water, and severely kick the tires to see if it goes anywhere without breaking down.
The simplest summary of the consensus is:
Humans are making the planet warmer.
The warming is dangerous.
Government can stop it.
The Red team is to go on offense, attacking and attempting to score against the consensus position. The Blue team is to go on defence, presenting data, facts and information to resist the assertions from the other side. Both sides should play the ball, not the man. The purpose is to reach a more complete and solid understanding of what is known and unknown about the functioning of our complex climate system. And from there what can be expected in the future.

Reply to  Ron Clutz
July 9, 2017 7:09 am

Whoops, somehow the text got posted twice. Sorry.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Ron Clutz
July 9, 2017 8:40 am

Ron,
While I’m not personally a spectator-sports fan, I think that your summary is a good analogy that many can relate to.

Dr Deanster
July 9, 2017 7:28 am

I did not read all 236 post before mine so apologies if this has already been stated….. but ….. IMO, a red team exercise for climate would be fruitless because the two would be arguing different points. CAGW makes an emotional argument. It’s not fair, unequality, we use to much of the earths resources, we are destroying the planet. The red team would be arguing with logic and data that the premise of the CAGW emotionalism is flawed. Unfortunately, no amount of logic or rational discussion can change an emotional perspective, because emotion is purely subjective.
I would see this playing out just like the abortion debate, with one side arguing the right of the fetus to live and the other arguing the right of women to choose about their bodies. They speak right past each other. So it will be with a red team approach to climate science.

Bob Hoye
July 9, 2017 3:46 pm

Larry needs to read more about science.
“skeptics have their beliefs”
Good grief!
Skeptics ask questions until the theory is discarded or becomes a law.

gnomish
July 9, 2017 3:50 pm

don’t need no steenkin teams.
unleash weaponized autism.
it friggin works.
reeeeeeeeeeeeee!

July 10, 2017 1:46 am

‘But there is no enemy organization in the climate debates’
The ‘enemy’ is the climate establishment. And I’d particularly focus on enabling research that they currently block as a risk to the ‘climate consensus’.
I’ll give you an example, although there are many more.
The effect of aerosol and particulate pollution (including cloud seeding effects) on temperature. This should be an easy subject to study as aerosol and particulate levels vary greatly over time and distance. Yet, very few studies have been done, and those that have been published, ALL just refer to diurnal temperature range. Not a single published study states the effect of aerosols and particulates (and cloud related effects) on actual recorded temperatures.
This is scandalous, as there is good evidence that much of the claimed warming is due to earlier minimum temperatures resulting from reduced aerosol seeded low-level clouds over urban and nearby areas.

Reply to  Philip Bradley
July 10, 2017 5:01 am

Philip Bradley:
You are correct that aerosol emissions can have a profound effect on average global temperatures.
In particular, I have found that the control knob for Earth’s climate is actually the amount of Sulfur Dioxide aerosol emissions in the troposphere, and not the accumulation of “greenhouse gasses”
This information is as yet unpublished, since it is flatly rejected by Journal editors acting as gate-keepers for the status quo. .
It is, however, available in my on-line post “Climate Change Deciphered”, which has never been rebutted.

Henry Bauer
July 10, 2017 8:35 am

The Red Team approach was conceived as a way of furthering the Blue Team’s agenda. But policy makers faced with technical issues over which expert interpretations and judgments differ would benefit most from an independent unbiased assessment of the relative merits of what the Blue and Red Teams assert.
An approach to providing such an independent assessment was proposed half a century ago by Arthur Kantrowitz when experts were disagreeing publicly over the potential safety of nuclear power — “Proposal for an Institution for Scientific Judgment”, Science, 156 (1967) 763-4.
This was much discussed for a time under the rubric of a possible “Science Court”. A few informal trials were made, a symposium was held in the early 1990s, but no such Court was actually established. More recently, some legal scholars have revisited the concept as a way of assisting the legal system as it needs increasingly to deal with cases where intricate technical issues play a central role and are presented in opposing directions by the expert witnesses called by plaintiff and defendant.
A Science Court would have subpoena powers and the authority to force proponents of the range of interpretations to present their cases and to respond to cross-examination. The purpose of proceedings would not be to assist a Blue or a Red Team to a better winning strategy but that independent judges or assessors would be able to offer the best possible advice to policy makers; that would typically be a statement of the nature and degree of technical uncertainties and the likelihood of benefit or harm from possible actions.
A just-published discussion of the Science Court concept forms chapter 12 in Science Is Not What You Think (McFarland 2017) http://www.mcfarlandbooks.com/book-2.php?id=978-1-4766-6910-6

David Cage
July 10, 2017 10:53 am

What it really needs is for the scientists to be tried for overselling with predictions like the hundred months to climate doomsday as the insurance industry here was for personal insurance.
We invested billions based on needing to solve the emissions problems in a short period, with neither wind nor solar a viable replacement for fossil fuels, when clearly there was no problem with climate change or at best no deadline.

Allan M R MacRae
Reply to  David Cage
July 11, 2017 9:38 am

Focus on the falsehoods and the fr@ud:
ECS wildly exaggerated by false positive feedbacks;
Fabricated aerosol data to force-hindcast the cooling of ~1940-1975;
Intimidation by warmists of journals, institutions and academics – see the Climategate emails;
Adjustments to historic and current temperature data;
Follow the money – this is in dollar terms the most costly sc@m in history – trillions of dollars have been misappropriated and millions of lives have been wasted.

Allan M R MacRae
Reply to  Allan M R MacRae
July 11, 2017 10:20 am

Feel free to add to this list of fr@uds:
The MBH98 etc hokey stick, Hide the Decline, Mike’s Nature trick, etc.;
The doctored SPM reports of the IPCC;
Eliminating the MWP and LIA from the climate record;
The BEST temperature studies;
Grid-connected wind and solar power;
Forcing intermittent non-dispatchable “green power” into the grid ahead of much cheaper dispatchable power;
Destabilization of power grids by “green energy” schemes;
Corn ethanol and other subsidized food-for-fuels;
Carbon taxes, carbon trading, etc.;
Brainwashing of children and adults and the spreading of false fears;
Vilification of fossil fuels, which provide 86% of global primary energy;
Spreading fear of warmer weather when cool temperatures are by far the greatest killer of mankind;
Increasing energy costs driving up excess winter deaths;
“Heat or Eat”;
… and the list goes on …

Verified by MonsterInsights