Ooops, looks like those “saving the planet” Tesla snobs just got their eco-ride de-pimped
From NyTeknik: h/t to Don Shaw (translated)
Huge hopes have been tied to electric cars as the solution to automotive CO2 climate problem. But it turns out the the electric car batteries are eco-villains in the production process of creating them. Several tons of carbon dioxide has been emitted, even before the batteries leave the factory.
IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute was commissioned by the Swedish Transport Administration and the Swedish Energy Agency to investigate litium-ion batteries climate impact from a life cycle perspective. There are batteries designed for electric vehicles included in the study. The two authors Lisbeth Dahllöf and Mia Romare has done a meta-study that is reviewed and compiled existing studies.
The report shows that the battery manufacturing leads to high emissions. For every kilowatt hour of storage capacity in the battery generated emissions of 150 to 200 kilos of carbon dioxide already in the factory. The researchers did not study individual brand batteries, how these were produced, or the electricity mix they use. But if we understand the great importance of the battery here is an example: Two common electric cars on the market, the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla Model S, the batteries about 30 kWh and 100 kWh.
Even before buying the car emissions occurred, corresponding to approximately 5.3 tons and 17.5 tons of Carbon Dioxide. The numbers can be difficult to relate to. As a comparison, a trip for one person round trip from Stockholm to New York by air causes the release of more than 600 kilograms of carbon dioxide, according to the UN organization ICAO calculation.
Another conclusion of the study is that about half the emissions arising from the production of raw materials and half the production of the battery factory. The mining accounts for only a small proportion of between 10-20 percent.
The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used in the battery factory consists of more than half of the fossil fuels. In Sweden, the power production is mainly of fossil-nuclear and hydropower why lower emissions had been achieved.
The study also concluded that emissions grow almost linearly with the size of the battery, even if it is pinched by the data in that field. It means that a battery of the Tesla-size contributes more than three times as much emissions as the Nissan Leaf size. It is a result that surprised Mia Romare.
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Is there a second hand market for EVs that are 5 … 6years old? The soon to be need of an extremely expensive battery should make an used EV essentially worthless. The only solution would be EVs where you lease the battery.
There is a used market and yes because of lots of mis-information there are some screaming deals.
The Leaf had some range degradation issues in hotter climates because they use an air-cooled battery. However GM over engineered the Volt battery with liquid cooling and have not had a single warranty claim for battery range degradation. People with 150k miles are still claiming the same battery range as when new.
Most people however assume that the battery in their iPhone is the same as the battery in the car. While it is similar, GM uses sophisticated battery management to keep it in the right temp and charge range. If you keep a LiOn battery between 20%-80% charge it will last much longer than when it is constantly fully depleted and fully charged as we do with our phones.
There is no motivation for Apply to implement battery management either because of planned obsolescence. Apply wants to sell you a new phone every couple years. Unfortunately that is most peoples experience with Lithium batteries and they assume the same.
In autos they have an 8 year 100k miles warranty to worry about so they make sure it lasts at least that. Real world data is showing even more.
I am a full on skeptic/denier/heathen whatever denigrating name the liberals attach, but I like technology. It is unfortunate that battery technology has received so many subsidies at the cost of the tax payer. But it has and we can’t put that genie back in the bottle. The upside is that those advances have enabled some cool products.
I say have an open mind and go test drive an EV just for fun. I think you’ll be surprised.
This article just got mentioned on Rush Limbaugh.
This story, and mentioning WUWT just occurred on Rush …
Anyone else bother to read the report? It’s 150-200 kilograms per kw/hr, not kilos. Author’s math is off a few decimal places.
Would you cite the reference, please?
I am waiting to replace my 1999 Subaru Outback with a dual powered (solar/wind) car. Meanwhile, I am going to trade in the 2007 Subaru Forester on a new car (lease) for my wife so I can take over the 2011 Toyota Highlander (with less than 50k miles).
Electric cars are a bigger scam than AGW.
At least the CO@ur momisugly is generated in the factory only, so schemes to capture the CO2 from a single source can be developed.
Alas, man-made CO2 is not the culprit of Global Warming.
I can’t find the transcript but this story and “Watts Up With That” were mentioned on the Russ Limbaugh show today.
It would be nice if they compared the CO2 emissions in the production of typical cars. That is the only way to make a fair comparison.
So after 8 years then it is more efficient than a gasoline vehicle..I drive a Prius, this same illogical analysis was once used by Hummer comparing battery pollution when being Mfg. 12 years later my Prius is still going on the same batteries…Based on this can I now say I drive a near zero emission car and a gasoline vehicle 12 years old is just that, a polluting, gas guzzling vehicle..
It’s only near zero emissions if the electricity you charge it with is near zero emissions. 8 year battery life is quite impressive though. Do you still get the same performance from them?
1500 miles of driving a 21 mpg car results in 9.9 tons of emissions. This means that in 2 months of 1500 mile driving, 19.8 tons are produced. Author says it takes not more than 17.5 tons to manufacture the batteries and maybe the car too. It wasn’t clear. That means in just over 2 months, the car has nearly covered the co2 needed to produce it. If you only drive 12,000 miles per year, figure 4-5 months. No big deal. Simple math. Google it with a co2 calculator to double check my math. Easy. But, Co2 emissions don’t hurt the environment. Diesel and coal do. If solar or hydro powered the factory, there would be no co2 emissions anyway.
Your math is off. About 20lb of CO2 are emitted for a gallon of gasoline. It would take about 71 gal of gasoline for a car to travel 1500 miles @ur momisugly 21 mpg.
On another web site I found this link to the original study.
http://www.ivl.se/download/18.5922281715bdaebede95a9/1496136143435/C243.pdf
The study and all the articles about it are completely different. In the original study they looked at multiple studies to involving Battery CO2 emissions and used that information to calculate likely ranges for manufacturing, charging, recycling and other batter related CO2 emission. The study never compared their calculated CO2 emissions to cars and never mentioned Diesel, gas, bio fuels or fuel efficiency.
I think someone wrote an article listing their negative opinion of batteries and then referenced to an obscure hard to find study to make their claims look legitimate. In short face news.
Looking at the ranges of CO2 emissions the report lists the CO2 emissions are likely less than 800Kg CO2 per Kilowatt of battery capacity. Much less than what a Diesel or gas car will produce in less than 1 year of operation. The study appears to conclude the opposite of what all the articles claim.
“The calculation is based on the assumption….”
Sounds scientific to me.
17.5 tons of CO2 before you even start the electric motor LOL Enough of Tesla bullshit! Eat this Elon. 386 MPH, 3.58 sec. quarter mile, hydrogen peroxide rocket car! Oh yeah and zero CO2 emission
http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/POD-0702/sammym~3.jpg
If my logic is correct, you have to compare the CO2 released from the production of the combustion engine and related parts of a car of certain horse power to the amount of CO2 released from the production of a battery of similar horsepower and related parts. If they are the same, then the combustion car would then still have to burn gasoline as fuel, while the battery would not.
Compare:
manufacture of combustion engine vs. electric motor
energy in gasoline/diesel vs. energy in battery
manufacture of gas tank vs. Li-ion battery
CO2 emission of gasoline/diesel burning vs. grid electricity (partly coal burning)
coal emits 50% more CO2 than diesel
diesel car win
Electric car is heavier (more material) than gasoline car. The body of Lotus Exige and Tesla Roadster are the same but Tesla is 400 kg heavier due to its battery. Lotus = 900 kg. Tesla = 1300 kg
Wondering how much CO2 a standard car battery production would release… but the way… according to the site bellow, a vehicle last an average of 11+ years in USA…
https://blog.nationwide.com/how-long-cars-last-infographic/
“It posits that production of a 100 kWh battery—Tesla’s biggest—produces 17.5 tons of carbon dioxide.”.
The Tesla has 9,600 batteries. So this hit piece of pure BS states every Li cell required 4lbs of CO2 to make it. That’s a crap load of energy just for a roll of Al, Cu with a C layer, P.E.T foils and a minuscule wetting of a Lithium salted solvent.
In fact its complete BS. This blog should be ashamed by feeding trolls. Every one of them have to drive 500+ miles continuously and only need to stop for a 2 minute fill up while pissing on the side of their car. While imagining car engines, fuel and oil come like rain. And Oil refineries do not have to be built next to power stations because they consume so much energy.
The writing is on the wall for steam carriages.
NIO EP9 Electric Supercar Breaks Nurburgring Lap Record – Full Onboard – 06:45:90
“That’s a crap load of energy just for a roll of Al, Cu with a C layer, P.E.T foils and a minuscule wetting of a Lithium salted solvent.”
That Al, Cu and Li come with a ton of rock in the mines to be blasted with explosives, shoveled by heavy eqpt, transported by huge dump truck, crushed in milling plant, then you separate and melt the metals.
“NIO EP9 Electric Supercar Breaks Nurburgring Lap Record”
LOL That electric supercar can’t even finish the Indy 500. Its battery will conk out after 265 miles. It can’t even beat this old 1927 Sunbeam car that exceeded 200 mph. The electric supercar’s top speed is 194 mph
http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Cars/Sunbeam/1000hp.jpg
EVs have advantages over ICE cars that can’t be denied. They are quieter (inside and out), smoother, quicker on average, roomier than equivalent external dimension ICE car, emission free at usage point, regen braking makes them easier to drive once you get the hang of it (you can one pedal drive), low center of gravity makes them more stable/better handling, more convenient if you can charge overnight, and less maintenance. If you can fit within the range and charge criteria and afford them they are a superior mode of transportation to an ICE car. Meeting that criteria makes them a niche vehicle though and until we run out of oil ICE will remain king as they have fewer drawbacks for more people. In some cases EVs will never fit in unless the current top range can be tripled and charge time reduced many, many times over. Think of just the noise and emission reduction in New York City or Tokyo if only EVs were allowed. Then think of the charging nightmare for all those vehicles if that actually ever happened.
@Jon Camp
“TL;DW —
Manufacturing an EV including batteries – 25 tons CO2, Manufacturing an ICEV – 16 tons CO2”
Wrong. Those who watched the video both hear Lomborg say “25,000 lbs / 16,000 lbs CO2” and saw it on the screen. 1000 lbs is NOT equal to 1 ton.