From the Calgary Herald and the “waiting of the government cash cow” department:
Oldest commercial wind farm in Canada headed for scrapyard after 23 years
By: DAN HEALING, CALGARY HERALD
The oldest commercial wind power facility in Canada has been shut down and faces demolition after 23 years of transforming brisk southern Alberta breezes into electricity — and its owner says building a replacement depends on the next moves of the provincial NDP government.
TransAlta Corp. said Tuesday the blades on 57 turbines at its Cowley Ridge facility near Pincher Creek have already been halted and the towers are to be toppled and recycled for scrap metal this spring. The company inherited the now-obsolete facility, built between 1993 and 1994, as part of its $1.6-billion hostile takeover of Calgary-based Canadian Hydro Developers Inc. in 2009.
“TransAlta is very interested in repowering this site. Unfortunately, right now, it’s not economically feasible,” Wayne Oliver, operations supervisor for TransAlta’s wind operations in Pincher Creek and Fort Macleod, said in an interview.
“We’re anxiously waiting to see what incentives might come from our new government. . . . Alberta is an open market and the wholesale price when it’s windy is quite low, so there’s just not the return on investment in today’s situation. So, if there is an incentive, we’d jump all over that.”
I’ll bet they would. Does anyone need any more proof that wind power just isn’t economically feasible on large scales without subsidies?
Coal and nuclear plants last longer and provide far more power…and production isn’t tied to the vagaries of wind and weather.
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Wind is subsidy farming, not power production.
+1
It is really sad when the governments preferred source of power can’t produce a ROI that pays for itself but rather requires vasts sums of Tax $$$ to even operate at a loss
Alberta has over 100 billion barrels of oil as well as gas and high quality coal. They let a bunch of “Griffs” work out how to screw that up!
Extending Bryan A’s comment …
The energy burden required to construct and then dismantle these turbines falls squarely on existing ‘traditional’ energy sources. This should reinforce the notion that dismantling existing power plants should not be the first step towards anything. We need to leverage the current energy supply to power through any future transition deemed worthy.
Well as usual everyone will be ranting their own preconceived option on wind power and ignoring the rest of the article.
This article and the source report lacks any useful information except that it is closing. NO DATA at all .
Apparently they are being decommissioned because it is getting hard to find parts for these old model of turbine, despite the maintenance crews just having got several back on line. This would have been a good point to get some data on total production over the 20 odd years, mean load factor achieved and then look at ROI instead of just ranting that it was not economic in a fact-free void.
Note that this was part of a predatory take over. Such operations are usually followed by asses stripping and job losses. They seem more interested in the real estate and scrap value of 680,000 tons of steel; or demolishing in order to such up some more grant money than limited income from the existing site.
This has little to do with whether the site has given a ROI since its constructions, it is an asset stripping manoeuvre. No more.
“This has little to do with whether the site has given a ROI since its constructions, it is an asset stripping manoeuvre. No more.”
Still though, it would appear that the installation must have a scrap value higher than it’s value as an operating electricity generator. It appears that no one wants to step up and buy the facility at what would presumably be a bargain basement price. (Actually, this looks more like extortion than looting — nice wind farm your province used to have there, be a shame if something happened to it).
Greg
Not a single wind farm would have been built in the UK in the last few years without massive subsidies, that’s why they had to be given.
As I repeatedly point out, I have no objection to any technology. I just don’t want to subsidise it
The article does have more information than just that the site is closing. It states that the company kept the site going for three years past the initial lifespan, so it wasn’t purely asset stripping.
As for data analysis, there is this:
“TransAlta is very interested in repowering this site. Unfortunately, right now, it’s not economically feasible,”
It wasn’t the people pointing out the shortcomings of wind power that ignored the article in favor of stating preconceived notions of what happened.
TransAlta also operates a large IWT project at Wolfe Island, which is near Kingston, Ontario
Ontario has high feed-in-tariffs for wind & solar projects with 20 year power purchase agreements.
More money to be made from IWT projects in Ontario.
IWT power purchase agreements lower in Alberta?
Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, Ottawa, Oct.9, 2012
Joint Review Panel: Jackpine Mine Expansion Project
“Re: Earthjustice and ecojustice written submission to the Jackpine Mine Expansion Project”
Earthjustice HQ is in San Francisco, Calif. EcoJustice HQ is in Vancouver, B.C.
Last I checked, these two organizations have interlocking Boards.
Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency is now disbanded according to internet information.
Alberta has had its share of outsiders coming into the province.
http://www.ceaa.gc.ca/050/documents/p59540/83149E.pdf
Also internet search: Earthjustice + Canada
Greg
Wow. So you’ve read minds and determined there’s bad faith about the de-commissioning.
Assuming you actually believe that, why don’t you and your friends buy the place and run it as a show-piece if renewable technology? You could even post “the number” here every now and then just to impress us.
Greg,
Asses stripping? Not sure why this would be par of a predatory take over, but I’m all for it. Might even donate a dollar or two.
[The mods recommend leaving all donkeys to stripe in pieces and quiet. .mod]
Dang blockquotes. Would be nice to have a preview/edit.
Total ROI.
Why haven’t you wondered why the ROI has not already been tallied and published?
How does a relic wind farm show a positive ROI?
Total construction costs.
Total maintenance costs.
Total workhorse required to maintain.
Total costs for support vehicles.
Total costs for energy conversion to grid compatible energy.
Total costs for energy maintenance relative to energy quality and frequency.
Total removal and reclamation costs.
Minus all subsidies.
A comparison to what local land in that area normally earns.
Along with total energy produced.
Percentage of local energy demand.
Percentage of energy produced compared to capacity.
Total energy contribution to local electrical grids.
Determination whether the wind farm allowed any reduction of other energy producers.
An honest CPA could tally it all up right quick. All they would need is accurate and complete data.
It is very curious that the companies involved, utility industry or Canadian Government haven’t published thee ROI… Isn’t it, or NOT!
Greg. You need to do some research on how the existing wind farms in Alberta were subsidized, not just with sweet heart power first and huge sale price advantages but from “out of country” Green Fund credits and contributions from places like California for their “Carbon ” which are no longer available.
The Left wing NDP government has promised to fund wind and solar using their new Cabon Tax but so far they are long on promises ans short on delivery.
They have a program for replacing light incandescent light bulbs worth LED’s and domestic hit water heaters with tankless heaters and putting more insulation in your home … BUT YOU CAN’T DO IT YOURSELF!!!!
You have to use one of their “approved” suppliers/contractors. Smell anything fishy yet.
I have already done all that and more myself at a fraction of the new “government contracted” costs and even with the grants you are still way way in the hole. Same goes for their solar panel grants. Remember this is a province that regularly hits 30 below, snows and very little sun for half a year. I put my two tankless heaters in for about 30% of the government program with rebates.
Only the rich and upper class can afford their generosity.
As for Wind Farms, some got a pretty sweet deal. The future however is Unknown and some say the best sites are already taken.
Time will tell.
On the otherhand, my auto start 12 kW propane generator ran for four hours during last week’s windstorm that knocked out power all across the rural area where I live.
Horses for courses. Pick your poison. And have a back up plan. Governments often forget to do that. No one source of power will ever be “THE ONE” in what’s left of my life time.
Aw, Janice. +1000 is better.
I searched hard trying to find data so I could at least guestimate the average cost of energy from the facility. Could find a little on production/output, but nothing on construction costs or maintenance. I suspect ATheoK is right and that we would see more information if it supported wind.
Perhaps with subsidies the decision to build Cowley Ridge with a 20 to 25 year life-span may have made sense. But I doubt that when the facility was built it’s life was projected to be that short. Unfortunately far too often we see “lifetime” skewed comparisons of renewable facilities which typically have shorter than expected lifespans to traditional plants with much longer life spans, that in reality often exceed what’s projected .
Bryan, not only can it not pay for itself, but it can’t even produce enough revenue to justify keeping already existing sites running.
Ted, you left out the “We’re anxiously waiting to see what incentives might come from our new government. . .” and “… if there is an incentive, we’d jump all over that.”
Greg at 11:40am – suggest you redo the maths on how much steel is contained in just 57 wind turbines. I think 680,000 tons might be 2 orders of magnitude over the actual quantity.
Material mass of a wind turbine is about 125 tons per MW capacity.
Crispin in Waterloo
Does that 125 tons per MW include the concrete and steel rebars in the foundation? The earth and road debris displaced from the “hole” that must be removed (and placed on topsoil elsewhere) to load the steel and concrete in the opening for the foundation?
Note: A 750 MW gas turbine plant does NOT require 750 x 125 tons of material to run 24 x 365 generating that 750 MW! (And that 1 MW windmill is only (on average) generating 16-20% of its 1 MW requiring those 125 tons of material – all of which need to be moved, lifted, processed, and shipped and shortly after construction recycled …. all by fossil fuels.)
I suppose that’s what the economists politely call ‘rent seeking.’ The rest of us would just call it graft.
Indeed, graft it is. How would you like it if the next time you checked out at your grocery store the bill was increased by 25%, 100%, or whatever amount as a subsidy to the grocery store chain.
And when you asked why you ran into a government brick wall.
Same for every other purchase. Also how would you like it if a company was allowed to come and deliberately kill thousands and thousands of eagles, hawks, songbirds, bats and so on every year for 25 years or so over a large land area near you. Wind farms have been exempted from the laws and they do slaughter uncountable numbers of birds for the life of their installations.
Tom, if wind is subsidy farming so too is nuclear. The UK’s Hinkley Point reactors will be receiving a guarnateed price of about 100 dollars per MWh generated. Meanwhile offshore wind projects in the North Sea are coming in with strike prices of 60 dollars or less per MWh.
A large part of the cost of nuclear is due to lawfare. Nuclear does, however, provide reliable base load, which wind does not and cannot.
True Bill
But the only reason Hinkley was signed up was because all of our coal baseload was being shut down.
Yes but NUCLEAR POWER DELVERS MEGA MWs.
Unfortunately, what the general population doesn’t realize, is that the coal/gas powered plants have to stay at between 80 and 90 percent capacity even with the wind running at maximum, because if the wind dies down, it takes them too long to get up to steam so to speak, and there would be brown or black outs. So even with the wind running well, we’re saving only a small percent of power. Mostly this just gives libs a warm, fuzzy feeling. sorry!
“I’ll let up a blow torch and let you repeat that experiment.”
That effect would be thermal energy almost certainly from a burning fossil fuel.
The effect of the kinetic energy in the wind would be orders of magnitude smaller.
Wrongly positioned, belongs one post down.
There’s also an old engineer’s joke that “Anything you can move your hand through this easily (wave hand in front of face) is a very poor source of energy”.
🙂
I’ll let up a blow torch and let you repeat that experiment.
One can wave their hand through hydrogen, natural gas, propane, acetylene, even a bucket of gasoline just as easily.
I doubt many engineers, especially old ones, find that joke amusing. Maybe if it was more specific and detailed a joke?
Greg,
In a normal business model the company would look at the cost of maintaining/re-fitting/upgrading/redesigning and the likelyhood of being able to pay for it in a reasonable timeframe. If the wind turbines were turning a profit from the electricity generated then this should be be a simple decision. But given that the company specifically mentioned they are “waiting to see what incentives might come from our new government”, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to deduce that cost of maintaining/re-fitting/upgrading/redesigning exceeds the likely revenue the turbines would generate. Thus they are “worth” more as scrap than as a power generation system.
Many years ago I worked on a small part of a upgrade/redesign for a Ethylene plant in Texas. The company that owned the plant was spending $500,000,000 on the redesign in hopes of saving $0.005(.5 cents) per ton in production cost. They expected to have that half billion dollars paid back in 5 years time.
The new owner is making a decision based on solid economics. That is how business works in the real world. Good intentions and warm happy thoughts don’t make the payroll.
I lived near the Tehachapi windfarm for about 20 years. During that time, many of the old 30KW mills were pulled and replaced with 1.5MW mills. That’s each new one equal to 50 of the old ones. Maintenance costs certainly favor the new, big ones. Of course, that doesn’t raise the capital for the new ones.
The only entity that will make money off wind energy is the scrap metal salvage company at the end.
And THAT will be done with no subsidies.
Because of the subsidies, there is more metal to scrap.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/01/south-australias-blackout-apparently-triggered-by-the-violent-fluctuations-from-the-snowtown-wind-farms/comment-page-1/#comment-2311111
[excerpts}
In Southern Alberta, we have some of the most consistent winds on the planet, due to the Crow’s Nest Pass, a gap in the Rocky Mountains to the west. Wind power is (or was) paid 20 cents/KWh and receives this 24/7, even when the wind power is not needed – then we give the power to neighbouring states for free. Reliable coal or gas-fired power typically gets 2 to 4 cents per KWh. Do the math.
Re backup, see below. Substitution Capacity is the key factor, and it is probably about 5% in Germany in 2016. That means they have to install 20 units of wind power to permanently replace 1 unit of coal or gas-fired power. As you can imagine, the economics are dismal.
Regards, Allan
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/02/27/exxon-stands-up-to-the-green-bullies/comment-page-1/#comment-2154602
[excerpt]
On Grid-Connected Wind and Solar Power:
Wind Power is what warmists typically embrace – trillions of dollars have been squandered on worthless grid-connected wind power schemes that require life-of-project subsidies and drive up energy costs.
Some background on grid-connected wind power schemes:
The Capacity Factor of wind power is typically a bit over 20%, but that is NOT the relevant factor.
The real truth is told by the Substitution Capacity, which is dropping to as low as 4% in Germany – that is the amount of conventional generation that can be permanently retired when wind power is installed into the grid.
The E.ON Netz Wind Report 2005 is an informative document:
http://www.wind-watch.org/documents/wp-content/uploads/eonwindreport2005.pdf
(apparently no longer available from E.ON Netz website).
Figure 6 says Wind Power is too intermittent (and needs almost 100% spinning backup);
and
Figure 7 says it just gets worse and worse the more Wind Power you add to the grid (see Substitution Capacity dropping from 8% to 4%).
The same story applies to grid-connected Solar Power (both in the absence of a “Super-Battery”).
This was obvious to us decades ago.
Regards, Allan
Yea, I live in the area of these and other windmills. The reality is, that the only way these damn things make money is through tax payers footing the bulk of the bill.Once that cash cow dries up, windmill farms will go bankrupt.
I want to know if these windy projects require a reclamation bond before construction to take care of demolition so they don’t end up as an eyesore boneyard.
Mining typically requires such regulations but I have a sneaky feeling these monstrosities will be around longer than plastic.
Well said!
Ditto
Wait till they realise how much it will cost to replace the offshore units. Won’t be long, a marine environment is not good for large rotating kit.
Green Sand
+ Shedloads of oodles.
The marine environment is (Ahem!) not good for pretty much any sort of kit, and large, rotating [so bearings . . .] kit – definitely so.
I appreciate technology advances, but the air is still moist and still laden with salt.
And that is not good for pretty much any sort of kit, as noted.
And in comparison with a rather dry (near-)desert – say, ooooh, southern Alberta with 10-25 inches a year, and not much salt – there can be a ve-ry marked contrast.
This particular pass is about as far as you can get from the marine environment. 8<) And it's failure bodes poorly for at-sea turbine lifetimes.
LCOE of CCGT $56/MWh. LCOE of onshore wind $146/MWh. Calculation details based off corrected EIA estimates, using Texas ERCOT grid for intermittency and transmission. Details in guest post ‘True cost of wind’ at Judith Curry’s Climate Etc.
The wind turbines are only there to show the location of the subsidy farms, occasional provision of power is just a byproduct of the subsidy farming.
Giant virtue signals.
These people have no shame. Begging for a government handout while admitting their product is not financially sound. .
Not necessarily begging, more like telling the Alberta government “if you want us to build a new wind farm you’re going to have to provide some incentives because wind farms are not economically viable without them
After the fits that were thrown when Trump refused to go along with the Paris Accord, I have no doubt Canada will keep right on putting up energy from weather projects to show how moral and caring they are.
” I will do anything that is basically covered by the law to reduce Berkshire’s tax rate. For example wind energy, we get a tax credit if we build a lot of wind farms. That’s the only reason to build them. They don’t make sense without the tax credit.” (sarc)
Warren Buffet, CEO Berkshire Hathaway, annual investors meeting, May 2, 2015
“We’re anxiously waiting to see what incentives might come from our new government. . . ”
..ROTFLMAO ….
Heh.
Janice Moore June 13, 2017 at 10:06 am
Heh does not say it all.
check out their stock price over a ten year period
https://www.google.com/search?q=transalta+stock&oq=TransAlta&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j69i59j0l4.3117j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
a bit down from 40 in the early 2000s ( if you call in the 5s just a little bit)
michael
That’s quite the environmentally-friendly gauntlet.
Nonrenewable converters of renewable drivers have their value, but the political myth of “green” technology is a first-order forcing of catastrophic anthropogenic technology and policy misalignment.
In defense of alternative energy sources, there`s hardly any wind around Pincher Creek.
Compared to, say, the surface of Jupiter.
The line loss from transmitting the power from Jupiter would be a bit much, don’t you think?
blcjr
I think we have “elastic” power cables, now.
You may call them coiled.
And how much boost to the incoming power will there be through the cables passing through [moving] solar wind magnetism?
It’s ‘practically free’ electricity.
And for the Earth end, I nominate Islington – a Great Red Spot! Make the Jovian negotiators feel right at home.
Auto
Mods, of course this is Sarc . . . .
A chain hanging from a pole is called a “Pincher Creek Windsock”. If it’s at 45 degrees, that’s a fresh breeze.
Wind people reading this will be showing up soon. Wyoming wind used to be interesting—now it’s just a reminder of greed and environmental pillaging. I hate the wind because all I hear is GREED, GREED, GREED.
to see what incentives might come from our new government. . .
Anyone got a figure on how much “incentives” they’ve raked in in those 23 years?
Not “they” , they’ve only just bought the site. Read the original report.
And why did the original owners sell it off? Because it was next to worthless.
Think of hedge funds who buy up junk bonds in the hope of making a quick buck
@Paul Homewood
In the article it is clear that the original owners did *not* sell it. The whole company was bought and this came in as part of the assets.
However Greg is talking nonsense when he says that the current owners have gained nothing from 23 years’ of subsidies. Those subsidies will have been part of the income of the company that was taken over, and without them that company would have been worth less.
The article says they acquired the site in 2009. That is 7-8 years of subsidies received under TransAlta.
Okay, benben (he’s lurking about somewhere, I’m sure….), so you don’t have to GOOGLE it this time (eye roll):
Sample quote:
(Source: http://blackmain.taylorpartners.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Ruth-Lea-The-Folly-of-Wind-Power-2011-10.pdf )
There. Maybe that will head little benben off at the pass….. 🙂
Ms Moore,
According to the URL, the article is from 2011, so the analysis is probably from 2010. Renewables have gotten so much better since then (where’ Griff to tell us that?).
\SARC, if needed.
Thanks for the reference.
Dear Jim, R.E.,
Oooo, yes. HUGE breakthroughs in wind tech have happened…. er WILL HAPPEN….. next year. 🙂
Anyway, lol, you’re welcome. Just in case you’d like them, here are some more cites along those lines:
1. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/10/theres-a-reason-the-modern-age-moved-on-from-windmills/
(discussing this 2012 Ruth Lea article: http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/electricitycosts2012.pdf )
2. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/08/26/bearings-the-achilles-heel-of-wind-turbines/
Sincerely,
Janice Moore
P.S. Thank you, so much, for giving me the courtesy of a title of respect! It’s so refreshing to be given the prerogative on that issue. Why do businesses think I LIKE them calling me by my first name without permission?? Please, from now on, call me Janice.
P.P.S. I almost called you “Mr. Jim” to reciprocate, but, figured you’d not mind what I did, since your last name is — HEY! Just. Figured. It. Out. But, not correcting so you could see my “thinking” lolol: you are Mr. Retired, called by your buddies, “Engineer Jim” (there was a Brakeman Bob on TV somewhere….. sometime…. ??).
🙂
I mean, “Brakeman Bill.”
Janice
Benben was last sighted driving up to Cowley Ridge to chain himself to a windmill tower & prevent decommissioning of a valuable energy source…or until somebody buys him out…whichever comes first (and he better hope it happens before winter).
🙂
If he waits until winter, the “Ice Road Truckers” will be sent to get him.
This is all old news. The turbines and equipment are gone and the ridge is baron and ready to be repowered!
Wind operators have profitted enormously from requirements in some locales for utilities to accept their output, whether needed or not. Florida, on the other hand, refuses grid inputs that are not under control of the grid operators, in essense, calling renewables like wind and solar to not qualified to be utility grade power producers. Power not controllable by the grid has very low value.
Apparently “sustainable” is a characteristic that cannot be applied to the power cultivating apparatus, much less the source of the power. I do not consider either sunshine nor wind to be a “sustainable” power supply. Nuclear plants now being built have lifespans of 60 years and probably longer.
Wind turbines are constructed on top of huge concrete blocks that extend well down into the ground. They are often on leased property. Who’s responsibility is it to remove those blocks when the turbines go away? Nuclear powr plants pay a certain amount for each kWhr into funds that will be there at the end of the plant’s operating lifespan, to both dispose of the wastes and the physical
mass. Why isn’t there a similar fund for windmills, and solar farms?
There is no fund for removal of subsidy farms as that is not in the business model. The original subsidy farmer gets as much subsidy as possible then sells off, liquidates company, and quite often goes bankrupt to avoid restitution costs. The only reason that this farm is not just being abandoned is that it has scrap value. The newer towers especially the ones offshore have almost no scrap value and will remain in perpetuity as monuments to the greed of subsidy farmers and the gullibility of politicians.
Have you ever read an actual wind farm lease contract?
jorgekafkazar Have you ever tried to enforce a lease contract against a dissolved company? The people that own the land will be the ones who end up having to remove the rusting hulks.
jorgekafkazar: I did in the past. They are harder find now.
Ian: Absolutely true. That’s what Wyoming is dealing with in abandoned oil wells. The companies are gone and there’s no one to sue. The state will end up paying. Even having a contract does not help. I think if bond was actually posted, that helps, but if the company sells part of the project to a sub-contractor the bond may not follow. It’s very complex.
If the decommissioning goes like the Portland General Electric Trojan Nuclear power plant went the utility company owners of the wind farm will not only get ratepayers to pay the cost but TransAlta will also get ratepayers to guaranteed a handsome profit from the demolition.
We have those unsightly things all over the place in Mojave, Tehachapi, Cabazon and Altamont, CA. They are just another monument to failed and over-subsidized government waste in the name of “green” power.
Also, when one of these wind turbines fail they catch fire and release all kinds of toxic crap into the surrounding area.
This is a direct result of liberal policies.
I hear in Texas they give electricity away for free at night. Lots of wind electricity being produced when there is only a little demand. It comes back to coal & natural gas being the controllable supplier.
Free to the consumer ? I doubt it. Producers may gain nothing, consumers still pay.
Greg
Of course the consumers (as US taxpayers) have paid for the wind subsidy.
Attached NY Times link describes the free power to consumers…https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environment/a-texas-utility-offers-a-nighttime-special-free-electricity.html?_r=0
Here’s a real time map of Texas showing plus and minus adders to the wholesale power prices. http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/contours/rtmLmp.html Now if someone could point me to the base reference price………
The project lasted twenty three years. That’s pretty good. What does it mean?
If windmills are free (or they are a sunk cost), they generate enough electricity to pay for their ongoing maintenance plus produce a small profit in a grid tied system where you don’t have to worry about storage and the operator isn’t responsible for backup power.
If the above wasn’t true, presumably they would have scrapped them a long time ago. ie. it was more profitable to run them than to scrap them.
Not sure what your point is, Bob. They were subsidized when they were built, they were covered for non-production by excess alternate capacity at high cost and they were subsidized from day ! until they couldn’t be maintained anymore. As Canadians and especially Albertans, we are all the poorer for this idiotic, political experiment with public money.
There is a set of circumstances, listed above, where wind power is competitive with fossil fuels.
The thing is that the required circumstances mean that wind will never be viable at any useful scale.
Marginal costs of wind are virtually zero, that’s why they can compete on spot prices.
Nevertheless, taking all capital and fixed costs into account wind farms are only economic with subsidies
Do wind plants ever sell as spot prices? I thought most had 20 year contracts.
Saying “wind farms are only economic with subsidies”, is a bit ridiculous. I didn’t know subsidies were free…oh, other peoples money, I see.
I suggest you visit the nice building housing Vesta’s admin and maintenance workers on Oak Creek Road in Mojave. I’m sure they would welcome the news of their zero pay checks.
This mean that in 23 years they was not able to spare enough money, even with incentives, to replace the windmills? Where all the money gone?
It’s gone (if it exists) into better investments.
My pocket would be the best investment.
Coal is a bad idea, as the particles kills people. Nuclear on the other hand is clean, cost the same, produce 24/7, and emits no co2….
nuclear has proven to be unsafe
nuclear emits a lot of warm H2O, which translates into H2O g which is a stronger GH gas than CO2….
henryp, if you discard the guessmetrics used by EPA and go by directly recorded deaths due to coal mining and emissions, gas extraction or to radiation from nuclear waste. Then calculate the number of deaths per megawatt hour for each energy source. I think you will find that nuclear is one of the safest energy sources if not the safest.
Nuclear has proven to be scary to many people.
Wrong. By any objective measure, nuclear energy is the safest form of energy production on the planet.
Sheri June 13, 2017 at 10:58 am
To me, spiders and very confined spaces are scary, too. Indeed, more so than nukes.
Indeed, I worked at the Berkeley, Gloucestershire (UK) plant for a brief time.
Quite happily, I add.
Auto
“By any objective measure, nuclear energy is the safest form of energy production on the planet.”
Objective measures never happen. The liability is too great.
Auto: Depends on the spider and how confined the space is! My hubby worked in a uranium mine—we still drive by the reclaimed area on the way to our cabin.
I came…: Very well said!
Nuclear power is safe. It just requires discipline, and is very unforgiving if one screws up.
Ok. Forget about my safety concerns. What abt the price. Nuclear is just too expensive. And it makes warm water around. All the fish around died. That ultimately translates into H2O gas.?…which is a stronger gh gas than CO2!!!
[???? .mod]
More people die in bathtubs every year than have been killed by all forms of nuclear accidents over their entire history.
henryp, first off, water vapor precipitates out within a few hours.
Secondly, all forms of power generation result in both warm water and water vapor.
Your fears of nuclear are not only not rational, they are nonsensical.
Mark
Ohhh
You have the fish also dying around a gas powered plant?
Let’s dismantle Henry’s nonsense, shall we?
First, by its historic track record, nuclear is by far the safest way to produce electricity in large, reliable quantities.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/getmedia/0d812c0c-6d90-41e1-b6eb-c00d7aa72f11/PSI_SevereAccidents1998.pdf.aspx
This is the Paul Scherrer Institut, and it’s about as definitive as it gets.
As to fish kills, it”s long been established that the warm water outflows of Ontario’s nuclear plants function as fish habitats particularly when the Great Lakes freeze over.
And henry’s comment about warm water vaporization is just too stupid for words. Among many, many other things, all thermal plants, nuclear or otherwise, have temperature limits on condenser water discharge.
sidabama, that too is mythology. Nuclear can indeed be used as load-following. The French nuclear fleet has been doing it for decades. Very few others do it because no one in their right mind wants to waste a baseload power source that runs for years at a constant, consistent output. In the case of Ontario’s nuclear plants, they can run as low as 60% capacity before shutdown is required. Again, no one does this voluntarily, because after hydraulic, nuclear is the cheapest electricity on the grid.
MarkW, cgh
Mark,
you have not answered me on the fact that there are no fish dying around a gas fueled power plant?
CGH
We have Koeberg here at the ocean side and there is no ‘new’ fish sort possible due to the warmer water…..?
Anyway, your notion that the warm water from the extra cooling processes involved with nuclear does not affect GHG is quite incorrect. If the water becomes warmer, the next time the sun comes out, it will cause most surely more evaporation if the water is warmer.
Hence, there is no advantage in nuclear (H2O g) compared to fossil fuel (CO2 g)
Both will enhance GHG % in the atmosphere [to anyone who thinks that is really a problem].
But let me ask you both this [pertinent] question [everyone will notice it if you donot answer that question]
If you have the gas and if you know that making gas turbined power factories is many times cheaper than nuclear, why would you still want to build nuclear fueled power stations?
[??? .mod]
HenryP – Nuclear is “too expensive” for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual construction, operating costs, fueling/waste disposal, or decommissioning. Between the expensive law-fare that delayed or stopped construction on some plants (Seabrook Station in New Hampshire comes to mind), constant design changes mandated by the NRC in the middle of construction (leading to some previous completed construction to be ‘undone’, usually for no reason other than some vague ‘safety’ concern that had more to do with showing who really ran things), and arcane and constantly shifting construction regulations and licensing rules, it’s no wonder nuclear became “too expensive”.
Want to see how to build and run nuclear power plants in a quick, efficient, cost effective, and safe manner? Then look to the US Navy’s nuclear power program. It gives lie to every claim made about how nuclear power is deadly, unsafe, and expensive. It’s expensive because know-nothing bureaucrats, anti-nuclear rent-seekers, and the deranged eco-warriors have made it that way.
DCE
please answer exactly the same question as I asked MarkW and cgh
If your reasoning were correct you should be able to show me comparison figures from before the nuclear scare that nuclear was cheaper than gas?
Nuclear safety statistics relative to other electricity providers are shown near the bottom of the linked article. Nuclear is by far the safest. http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-security/safety-of-plants/safety-of-nuclear-power-reactors.aspx
Dan
That was no longer my question. See my question to cgh and markw.
They are silent now?
Henry, that’s because we’re simply not going to respond to you. You’re a typical internet troll; when rebutted on one topic you simply move to something else equally spurious. You’re not here for any debate of substance. You’re simply here to heckle. You’ve had your answers; any more would simply be pouring pearls before swine.
Well,
I think anyone who is clever will have figured out cgh and Mark are the people here always advertising nuclear energy. I think most people here will also have figured out that it is not worth pursuing nuclear energy because it makes no eco- or economical sense.
Goodbye, good luck.
“Want to see how to build and run nuclear power plants in a quick, efficient, cost effective, and safe manner? Then look to the US Navy’s nuclear power program. ”
Speaking of the navy, there is currently a class action lawsuit involving several hundred US sailors who were heavily contaminated aboard the USS Ronald Reagan during Operation Tomodachi off the coast of Fukushima, and who subsequently became very ill. Nuclear’s safe and cheap … as long as there are no accidents.
US Navy Sailors Search for Justice after Fukushima Mission
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/navy-sailors-possibly-exposed-to-fukushima-radiation-fight-for-justice-a-1016482.html
Nuclear is great as base load power, but it like wind at night, it can’t ramp up and down.98% of the particulate can be removed from the combusted coal exhaust, and with the latest Carbon Capture Utilization Systems over 90% of the CO2 can be removed from the combusted coal exhaust. There is less CO2 in this exhaust than in natural gas exhaust.
Carbon capture is insanity whose only justification is the current “carbon” hysteria. Don’t even want to know how much you can capture. Pointless.
Carbon Capture: Insanity or Stupidity? Maybe both.
CO2 at current levels, and even at double current levels, is not an issue. CO2 is an environmental non-issue. Period. Its discussion in power production should not be considered. You want a green planet, continue to burn coal for its CO2 production. You want a particulate-free planet, get there in part with clean coal power units. CO2 = Plant food. Clean coal = green planet.
CO2 at ten times the current level still wouldn’t be an issue.
Yes it can. Read my comment above.
Nuclear is much more expensive than coal or gas if Hinkley Point is anything to go by
But, as your other comments make cleat you already know, Hinkley Point *isn’t* anything to go by.
All the coal plants are being shut, indirectly, by EU fiat and the existing nuclear plants are nearing the end of their lives. In the mid to late 2020s a huge %age of UK generation will go off line.
Hinkley Point is a fine example of the a government cock-up along the lines of: ‘There is a problem, we must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do this.’.
Not because of the actual cost, but because of politics. Currently, nuclear may indeed be more expensive than other forms of energy, but not because the technology is bad or the actual cost of construction is so high.
I hope Hinkley Point is an anomaly.
James, Janet, the principal problem with Hinkley Point is that it was designed by Areva. It’s building two examples of an immensely complicated plant called the EPR. The real problem with Areva is not simply the complexity of its design but that it has bungled basic project management. Simple things like incorrect specification of concrete and steel.
For the rest, its high cost is likely the result of contract conditions inserted by the British government. If you want a lot of absolute guarantees about things like the future cost of fuel, as a customer, you pay for that. If as a customer you want the builder to absorb 100% of construction overruns, even though you the customer may cause such overruns, you pay for that. If as a customer, you want the builder to absorb all the added cost of regulatory changes, you pay for that.
Sheri, the high cost depends in large part on how many conditions and guarantees the government inserted into the contract. The more guarantees and penalties for late delivery, the higher the sticker price.
Nuclear doesn’t need to be expensive. http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/The-Myth-Of-Expensive-Nuclear-Power.html
The problem with particles was solved 40 years ago. Please keep up with the times.
Hopefully, this will be the first of many, then our Energy costs can be returned to what they once were.
Oh, right, prices will go down. When has that ever happened?
My power company is preaching conservation again. Last time I conserved, they raised by monthly costs and any savings from conservation were eaten up by the monthly fees. No matter how much conservation and cost savings via any method are preached, they never, ever materialize.
Years ago, my local Wal-mart went from being open 24/7 to being open 6 am to midnight. They said it was “to serve you better”, as they would be able to stock during the hours the store was closed. Guess what continued to happen during business hours. The store eventually returned to 24/7 (when I was no longer in need of anything at 3 am). I think there may be less daytime stocking since the change.
My family now jokes that whenever a company makes a change that will supposedly “serve you better”, expect the opposite.
My home in Virginia is served by a non-profit electric cooperative (NOVEC), so my bill went down three years ago when their cost went down. We also get Power Cost Adjustments each year that wholesale prices are below the amount budgeted.
Use wind like they used wind in the old times: pump up the water from a lower level to a higher level reservoir [lake]
then catch the falling water like you get hydro power and use the power when you want it and need it [open the sluice gates]
I think all other ‘wind’ power is a waste of time.
I see what you did there (leaving out the environmental curse word “dam” so as not to offend the greenies).
henryp: “I think all other ‘wind’ power is a waste of time.”
America’s Cup racing (leveraging wind power) is quite amazing.
And even inshore, it is a challenging environment.
Off shore, especially deep sea – crossing oceans – the sea wins if there is even a sliver of a problem.
Google ‘Stellar Daisy’ – a converted very large ore carrier that sank with practically no warning, in April, carrying twenty two men to a watery and untimely grave.
Two seafarers survived [largely by luck, it seems].
The Sea is, indeed, a Cruel Mistress.
Auto
Pumped hydro only works in places where there is favorable geography, which is not common naturally. It would take a massive geoengineering effort to create enough “reservoirs” to provide a large fraction of our current energy needs. This would cause the destruction of habitat for thousands (maybe millions) of species of animals and insects. ALL wind power is a waste of time.
Paul,
Agree, but – if someone thinks they can make money, don’t deter them from trying, where the topography appears favourable [to them, if to nobody else . . . ].
Auto
You can build these – turbines with built in pumped storage:
https://qz.com/823054/germany-wind-turbine-hydroelectric-batteries/
Have you apologised to Dr. Crockford for maliciously lying about her professional qualifications yet, you paid propagandist pimp for the likes of “Sir” Reg Sheffield, Al Gore and Chris Huhne?
So you build TWO power plants instead of one. I fail to see how that is a bargain. (Yes, one is the “pump” and one is the electricity, but it’s two plants. Water evaporation is a problem, made worse by WIND. So you need a constant source of replacement water.)
No.
Use could use existing dam and hydro. Just adding more water from down stream pumping it nack upstream. It is all about rethinking ‘re-usable’…..
It’s worse than that. You lose about 30-40% of the energy generated in friction losses in the pumped storage system. Henry also seems unaware that the volume and head of water available in any hydraulic system is severely constrained. There are both absolute limits on the volume available, and strict limits on how much can be used to restrict environmental damage.
One day this may change, but at the current time there is no way to store enough energy to “smooth” a large wind-powered grid without incurring storage cost equal to or greater than the cost to generate with a modern coal or natural gas plant. There may be the occasional lower cost option suitable for some small percentage of the storage solution, but on average the huge capacity required ends up quite expensive per KWh.
The only way to minimize the storage required is to vastly overbuild wind and transmission capacity or have alternative generation capacity. Both of those solutions are very expensive. Look out for tricky accounting practices which shift those costs to power generated from non-wind sources.
sciguy54
I believe a reservoir at elevated height is being planned inside the sea on the coast of Belgium.
The wind is used to pump into the reservoir. The water is let out if and when you need the power on the grid. It looks to me like a novel idea to solve the practical problems with wind power?
read also my comment here
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/13/wind-power-fails-in-canada-a-23-year-life-span-not-likely-to-be-replaced/comment-page-1/#comment-2529141
sciguy54 – wind power doesn’t have to
immediately provide 100% of power to
be useful and worthwhile.
Wind turbine on fire in Texas earlier this month:
Nice plume of Toxic Black Smoke
For some reason your post made me think of all the scare stories that use pictures of water vapor from cooling towers.
Absolutely Bryan! I have always be fascinated by how clean burning wind turbines are when they are on fire.
Close to the road. There’s probably no more vulnerable power source. I read that irate land owners somewhere were shooting holes in the oil pan causing failures like this.
And yesterday June 13 in Nebraska, collapse of turbine
And last week, June 09 in Iowa, turbine on fire.
And here is a link to a lot of similar incidents that never get reported.
https://stopthesethings.com/2017/01/10/wind-farm-mass-attack-wind-turbines-collapsing-combusting-around-the-world/
That’s the website I read about wind turbines getting shot. This is probably the article – https://stopthesethings.com/2017/04/05/cavalcade-of-wind-farm-chaos-turbines-collapse-explode-get-shot-by-angry-neighbour/
You don’t need photoshop to see that black plume.
CD: wanna compare that wind power,
or the pollution from its fire, to
the lifetime emissions from
an equivalent coal
plant?
After the wind turbine is put out, how about you compare the wind turbine ash to the ash the coal plant puts out?
michael, sure, let’s see
your comparison.
the wind turbine burned for, what,
an hour?
and the coal plant for what, 10 years
or more?
that’s a factor of 90,000 right from
the beginning………….
The weight of six months of coal ash from a power plant exceeds the entire weight of the UNBURNED turbine, not to mention that all the steel and concrete in the wind turbine doesn’t burn. Want to talk about the stuff that goes up the flue that the bag house doesn’t catch?
[??? .mod]
They shouldn’t be scrapped; they should be moved to the entrances of progressive cities across Canada to stand as proud, virtue-signalling climate sentries.
They don’t look like the majestic white towers. Not much virtue signalled without a white, 400 ft tower.
You mean like ‘Eye of the Wind”, the eye sore built for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics that keeps immobile virtually 24/7/365 transformed as a viewing plateform?
https://www.grousemountain.com/eye-of-the-wind
I prefer reliable, “irresponsible energy” 😉
At least there’s some scrap metal. Modern concrete bases never go away. Would love to see their life cycle ROI and ROCE. Betting it was negative even with incentives.
Are you sure that they don’t have concrete bases?
Anything that sticks up more than a few feet needs some sort of foundations. They may have less concrete than monopole wind turbines but I would be very surprised indeed if they had none whatsoever.
Power windmills definitely do have concrete bases, reinforced with steel.
Quite a large amount actually. It’s about the volume of five school buses. Decommissioning provisions do not include removing the concrete foundation. That’s left to the landowner.
Talk about concrete, here you go Ray Barham
https://stopthesethings.com/2014/08/16/how-much-co2-gets-emitted-to-build-a-wind-turbine/
Henryp writes that nuclear power is unsafe, which is an assertion. Certainly many more deaths occur as a result of coal, in both the mines and because of particulates emitted. The particulates removed from coal smoke are the larger ones, whereas it is the smallest which pose the greatest danger. I suspect that oil and gas have deaths in the exploration and production phase, but possibly fewer from emissions. However, in terms of money spent on safety compared to the numbers of deaths, nuclear is certainly the safest of all.
Small particles pose zero danger. Please cite solid science not mythology. The human body is we;ll adapted to control many external factors. Thats why we have thrived all over the planet.
The danger of small particles is for the most part imaginary.
As far as wind sites go, Cowley Ridge is a very good wind site being on the leeward side of the Rockies, with a good stiff wind blowing the majority of the time. All the Interconnection details are already in place, including permitting, so you would think just installing some of the new larger multiple Mw units would be a piece of cake. The problem is, you can’t build any new generating asset of any kind and rely on spot pricing to get a decent ROI to justify building any new asset. And of course, the nature of wind power is non firm, intermittent energy. It only works when the wind blows, and unless Trans Alta were to integrate this into a pumped storage scheme, which is entirely feasible in this neck of the woods, it is hard to justify now paying them firm base load prices for a product that isn’t. I recall when Cdn Hydro Developers signed this contract in the early 1990’s, that the only real subsidy they got was near equivalent retail firm pricing. About 5 cents per kw/hr at the time. Plus maybe a break on any utility property taxes. They made money at this then, but then they were the only wind operator on the grid at the time so no real effect with an intermittent supply.
If Trans Alta were to rebuild this site with a pumped storage site nearby in the mountains, they may have a solution at present firm market pricing. PS has a return trip efficiency of 70%-75%, and will never be outdone by batteries or anything else on a long term asset lifespan, so I think this is the solution if Alberta is ever going to try and get more renewables online. Successfully.
Ron / others … I drive by these windmills regularly on my way to ski in BC. They have a history of being shut down in high wind conditions. This is the only place I have ever seen where they have permanent warning signs for the wind conditions stating how hard it is blowing and it is a common sight to see semi trucks blown over in the ditch. I can’t remember what the max wind they can handle is but I want to say 60 to 70 kilometres per hour.
yup…too much of a good thing is actually a bad thing. Driving west into a 50 mph headwind can be a challenge. But you get home going east for near free.
Excellent point. I remind people all the time that turbines have cut-out speeds. The ones I have seen and read about have cut-outs closer to 65 to 95 kph (40 to 60 mph). However, in Wyoming, that is not uncommon. Yesterday, we had several tornadoes, and sustained winds of 60+ mph for several hours. Over 40 mph is quite common. Semi trucks blow over routinely, though they shut the interstate highway now in high wind, especially in the winter. High wind wears out everything faster. People do not understand wear and tear on turbines, either.
I believe the max wind is 36 mph, from my memory.
Trans Alta probably did not do a due diligence. Or they did, and would like a handout as well. Wait, isn’t asking for a handout a part of due diligence?
Pumped storage does not satisfy the Greens, who will point out that man made reservoirs have a significant AGW footprint. This is why hydro is no longer in the pantheon of green and renewable energy. A PS solution is therefor off the table is green credentials are to be kept, regardless of the reality of power storage needs.
Ehhh
Scratch head
Do greens prefer to sit without electricity?
Most of the greens prefer that YOU sit around with no electricity.
Henry P: Yes.
Not to worry. I’m sure that Canada’s Climate Barbie (aka Catherine McKenna, Minister of Environment & Climate Change) has an “innovative” slogan-and-hashtag-worthy “solution” ready for her twitter-army and the [taxpayer funded] CBC to praise and promulgate at her command /sarc
Behind the scenes, Minister McKenna has been signing off on Porches, Mercedes Benz, and Lexus cars for her department’s use. McKenna signed off on not one but two luxury Porsche vehicles. But don’t worry, they were used cars — so the one only cost us $67,000 dollars and the other was a mere $63,000. And the Lexus McKenna signed off came in just shy of $67,000 as well.
But take a look at some of the other vehicles Climate Change Barbie brought in to her department thanks to the public purse: A Mercedes Benz for $92,000 and, finally, the crown jewel in the Ministry of the Environment’s garage (courtesy of you and me, the taxpayer): A brand spanking new Tesla for a cool $112,000.
Stewart…If only Minister McKenna and a few of her pals (not premier windbag) would dance naked under a full moon, chanting for a solution to whatever they think the problem is, I am sure they could halt the tide coming in. First we take back Alberta/BC from the socialists, and then Ottawa. Common sense will prevail in the end.
did anyone of these green WWF lovers worry over bursting the lungs of thousands of bats, and killing as many birds in the name of clean energy?? who speaks for the creatures? Why doesn’t Greenpeace have an ecofreindly moon-powered land yacht to fight these windmills?