The Guardian Just Noticed Greens are Losing the Climate Debate

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

Greens are inventing elaborate fantasies of shadowy right wing conspiracies to explain President Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Treaty – but still refuse to consider the possibility they are wrong about global warming.

Trump’s Paris exit: climate science denial industry has just had its greatest victory

Graham Readfearn

Trump’s confirmed withdrawal from the United Nation’s Paris climate deal shows it’s time to get to grips with the climate science denial industry.

Moments before the US president, Donald Trump, strode into the Rose Garden, TV cameras pictured his chief strategist, Steve Bannon, shaking hands and looking generally pleased with himself.

Bannon once called global warming a “manufactured crisis”.

Bannon, with Trump’s head of the Environmental Protection Agency, Scott Pruitt, were among the loudest and most forceful voices in Trump’s ear, imploring the president to pull out of the Paris climate change agreement.

During his speech, Trump claimed the Paris deal was bad for America. The themes were economic, but the speech was laced with jingoistic protectionism.

“Our withdrawal represents a reassertion of America’s sovereignty,” he said.

The foundation for Trump’s dismissal of the Paris deal – and for the people who pushed him the hardest to do it – is the rejection of the science linking fossil-fuel burning to dangerous climate change.

So what comes next? Hopefully, one realisation will be this.

Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.

They just convinced the leader of the United States to pull the plug on a historic deal signed by almost 200 countries, and instead join Nicaragua and Syria as the only countries not signed up.

It is time to take that climate science denial industry seriously.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/planet-oz/2017/jun/02/trumps-paris-exit-climate-science-denial-industry-has-just-had-its-greatest-victory

Why do Greens feel compelled to invent elaborate conspiracy theories to explain their failure to convert people to their cause? My guess is the reality is simply too hard for greens to swallow.

The climate alarmist cause is failing because it is based on a false premise. The idea that the Earth currently faces a manmade climate crisis is quite simply nonsense.

No amount of green money, psychological “inoculations”, propaganda and tub thumping can hide this simple fact from ordinary people who have access to the evidence.

Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.

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335 thoughts on “The Guardian Just Noticed Greens are Losing the Climate Debate

  1. So, climate science denial is an industry. Who knew?

    Is climate science alarmist propaganda an industry too?

    One good conspiracy theory deserves another.

      • Alarmists capability for projection knows no limits.
        They are the ones who have been “denying” the scientific method, inverting the null hypothesis and running a multi-billion dollar bogus science industry for the last three decades.

        M.E. Mann lies before congressional committee in similar attempt to accuse others of exactly what he has been doing himself.

        HYPOCRITES , the lot of ’em.

      • The Guardian Just Noticed Greens are Losing the Climate Debate

        there never was a debate because they refused to have one. See Gavin Schmitt childishly walking of set and refusing to debate Roy Spencer.

        Mann refuses to debate with anyone.

        What they are loosing is a propaganda war, not a scientific debate.

      • Chalk this up as yet more proof that what we’re dealing with here is a cult.

        I’m serious.

        This is a cult brainwashing tactic. They aren’t telling their followers to learn the science or the truth, they are telling them to be wary and be ready to reject any information that does not conform to the inside groups (cult) beliefs.

        “Isolation – Cults cut off members from the outside world (and even each other) to produce intense introspection, confusion, loss of perspective and a distorted sense of reality. The members of the cult become the person’s only social contact and feedback mechanism.

        Cults may keep new recruits from talking to other new recruits. They may only be allowed to speak with long-committed members for a period of time.
        Cults may not allow unsupervised contact with the “outside world.” In this way, there is no chance for a “reality check” or validation of a new member’s concerns regarding the group.
        Cults typically instill the belief that “outsiders” (non-cult members) are dangerous and wrong.”

        http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult4.htm

      • Robert W Turner….

        Don’t forget cults also employ low protein diets (vegetarianism), repetitive chanting (the planet has a fever… the planet has a fever…), and sleep deprivation through in this case… fear.

        If it looks like a duck and it qwacks like a duck it’s probably Mann and Gore!

      • Greg:

        “…running a (mostly) taxpayer-funded multi-billion dollar bogus science industry…”

      • Do you suppose we could get back pay for our previous volunteer efforts? sarc/ Seriously, the fact that those who think that opposition is present only because they are being paid is evidence of just how out of touch with reality these alarmists are.

      • The Climate Science Denial Industry is one of the many industries that should flourish under the Trump administration.

    • Climate alarmism was a three hundred billion dollar industry till yesterday. Please give them ample time to cry.

      • Truthfully, I think somebody at The Guardian is actually quite happy with articles that go full-retard because it brings in more clicks, and the seriously afflicted don’t realize how much other people are laughing at their histrionics. Links from articles such as this will increase site traffic and please the advertisers. There is not a lot to please the advertisers at The Guardian in recent times.

        They probably don’t much care if the traffic actually comes from political opponents and people who go there to gawk and gloat. Out of morbid curiosity I might now go there myself for a quick look. It almost feels like there’s been another election and Trump won again.

    • Actually climate “science denial” has always been an industry – that’s why we have billions of dollars worth of bat mincemeat makers, and bird broilers. The only people that have been denying “climate science,” has been the AGW crowd, and they’ve denied “climate science” from the beginning, preferring pre-programmed hysteria models.

      • Grammy has it very wrong.
        Bannon once called global warming a “manufactured crisis”.

        Nope, He said that many times.

        The foundation for Trump’s dismissal of the Paris deal – is the lack of science linking fossil-fuel burning to dangerous climate change.

    • Where can I send a resume. One of my key accomplishments was to get banned from most alarmist blogs for asking questions whose undeniable answers undermine the foundation of the climate alarmist industry.

      • Now if only you could get banned from one or two of the Anti-AGW blogs as well we might be convinced you are on the right track.

      • That would only happen if the moderators believed that incremental atmospheric CO2 has no more than a negative effect on the average surface temperature.

        This probably won’t happen since the majority of readers and contributors to the anti-AGW blogs are actually anti-CAGW and understand that incremental CO2 has a finite effect on the surface temperature, but the size of this effect is dramatically over-estimated by the IPCC and the self serving consensus surrounding the reports it generates.

      • What alarmist blogs did you get banned from?

        I’d like to post some comments there — I find it amusing to annoy the climate parrots and their memorized talking points.

        I may be more of a “denier” than you.

        I think the climate in 2017 is wonderful.
        There has been no problem from climate change in the past 150 years.
        Sea level rise is not accelerating.
        Night are a little warmer, but that’s good news.

        I propose doubling the CO2 level ASAP to further green the Earth.

        And if a doubling of CO2 happens to increase the average temperature by one degree C., as suggested in laboratory experiments, that’s even better.

        Warming at night in cold climates, the primary claimed effect of greenhouse gases, would be a bonus on top of CO2 greening the earth and accelerating green plant growth.

        Can you imagine me going to an alarmist blog and telling them I favor doubling the CO2 level as soon as possible?

        It would be similar to walking past the monkey cages at the zoo while banging my steel cup against the bars — they would go berserk — the liberals I mean, not the zoo animals. I hope I didn’t offend the zoo animals by comparing them with liberals?

      • Why is it that the Left owns nearly ALL the major media? As long as that is the case, we will have climate science nonsense, massive deficits and public policy made by the SJW’s at everyone’s expense.

      • John: Because the Right refused to believe it was happening and thus did nothing to stop it.

    • Does anyone know why I haven’t received my paycheck for the last several years of climate denialism? I mean it is a giant industry supported by ???? and clearly paying people to say evil and hateful things. There after all couldn’t possibly be any reason for me to have questions about climate alarmism. Just because I have a solid well educated prior to the attempts to rewrite it grasp of history. And had questions about the medieval warm period. The roman warm period. The end of the little ice age and what impact that had on their numbers…. I mean just because I actually know something about history and don’t blind myself to asking questions.

    • I love the label of “jingoistic” when he is simply supporting our country and its future health as a viable economy and society. Jingoism is patriotism that leans toward warlike. Short of standing up for our principles in the face of other countries and fighting the forces of Jihadist Islam, he is not warlike. What he is doing is totally adult, which drives the libtards crazy—their emotionally-based ideals and policies are being supplanted by real world policies that will allow them to keep, but not impose, their feel-good thoughts.

      • “What he is doing is totally adult…” writes Higley7. The German magazine Der Speigel is appalled that Trump is telling NATO partners to pay what they agreed to pay for their own defence. That’s adult. The agreed level is minimum 2% of GDP. Britain and Estonia meet that commitment and the US spends more than 4%. Apart from these the rest of NATO is slacking.

        Spiegel reports in outraged tones that he dares point out to Germany and others that “there are large and prosperous countries not living up to their alliance obligations”. I think that your president has said something like “if they won’t pay for their own defence why should America make up the shortfall?” I heard on BBC Radio the Swedish defence minister answer, in response to a journalist making that very point: “Well, we have other things we need to spend our budget on!” Darn cheek!

        I encourage people to read the Spiegel article. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/trump-pulls-out-of-climate-deal-western-rift-deepens-a-1150486.html

        As a Brit I salute your president’s bold stand on the global warming hoax, and fervently hope that my own government will do the same after next week’s election.

    • Well for starters the set of persons of genus homo who deny that climate changes, is an empty set containing exactly zero set elements.

      So now what was the second complaint.

      G

  2. > Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.

    I gotta tell ya. The Jobs Board at the global climate science denial industry website has exploded with new listings. [snark for the humor deficient]

    • “Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.”

      They’ll never figure it out…

      • From what I can see the sceptics are disinterested people with an interest in the subject. There are no personnel or structure. This is not a James Bond scenario where we all live on a tropical hideaway ( about to be inundated by rising acid sea levels). Sarc off/
        Perhaps they should consider it as asymmetric discussion and read “Street without Joy ” before launching their conventional media onslaughts.

      • It isn’t complicated. It’s called legitimate scientific inquiry unpolluted by politics.

      • Well I was born and raised on a continent that was already under water. So I don’t care if it floods a bit more.

        G

    • Method – Giving out facts
      Tactics – When someone brings up Global Warming, we correct them with facts
      Personnel – Anyone can do it, facts are facts
      Structure – Ground roots
      Reach – Anyone that wants the truth can be converted

      Oh and the more you call it denial, the more people investigate what it’s all about, then they convert after finding the facts.

      How to stop us – One World Gov’t, but Trump just put a big ding in that

      • I’m not sure that the ding is that big.
        It would have been a much bigger ding if he had used false or indeed fake science rather than economics as the reason for withdrawing.

      • But the global egalitarian economics of spreading wealth from wealthy nations to 3rd world countries (including those who do the spreading) IS the underlying reason. The man-made catastrophic climate meme is just the façade to sell this to those that can’t/won’t use critical thinking skills

      • Oh, I thought the science of CAGW was about siphoning wealth from the former US middle class into the pockets of otherwise unemployable “academics”. CAGW being the religion promoted by Globalists to get money and power.

      • Mike, the CAGW folks expanded the agenda to include sending money to totalitarian and socialist dictators and autocrats to “spread the wealth around”. The next step would have been to ask for even more money to build more projects because the first tranche wasn’t big enough- meaning the kleptocrats wanted better furniture and even bigger palaces and armies.

      • Not even a one world government could stop us.
        The thing tyrants fear most is the single slave that refuses to be a slave, and the inevitable revolt where the tyrant ends up against a wall.

      • The idea that the warmests want to spread wealth from the wealthy nations to the third world never made any sense to me. They don’t care about the Third World. What they want is a One World government, with them at the helm. Carbon tax revenues are simply a clever way to buy allies with the money of your enemy. If they could pull this off, they would gain some power over the west with their taxation, and some power over the Third World with their bribery. Not to mention lining their own pockets for their services as money changers and self proclaimed saviors of the Planet. Its a pretty clever scheme. Evil…but clever!

        Trump was absolutely right when he made his decision based on US Sovereignty. After all, if this was about climate science, the issue would have died before it got started. There is simply no compelling reason to be worried about man-made climate change. The science does not support the theory and the theory does not support a crisis. 3 degrees warming over 100 years is nothing for opportunistic, adaptable humans to deal with, and the biosphere would love the warmth like it already loves the increasing atmospheric plant food.

      • Jared

        Personally, I don’t see why people are so worried about world governance. There was a meeting in Paris, they agreed to do just about nothing. Some people agreed to sign on, some didn’t. What’s wrong with that? It is democratic in that sense.

        If some US States want to continue in line with the Paris Agreement, nothing prevents them from doing that, even before the announcement. People are free to implement any CO2 reduction schemes they want to pay for. A democratic movement would not permit that option, and it does, so is that a problem?

        Countries that want to get gobs of money from the other participants are free to try to get it. Those who want to hand out gobs of money can do so – that is their choice.

        The problem comes when those who are in charge of the international process are not accountable to anyone at all. That is taxation without representation, something that has caused “certain problems” in past centuries.

        The UN is not accountable to the peoples (the electorate) of the world. That is a problem. Until the UN is a properly constituted and responsible (in the conventional political sense) it should not have taxation powers that are not agreed by the members. The Paris Agreement was a substitute for such a responsible body and a substitute for democratically agreed action.

        Bringing hundreds of participants to Paris is not a democratic act – such movements are far to easy to bias through the organising committee. It has a very European Union feel about it where there are a few people who leverage a committee who leverage a large committee who leverage an entire convention to produce a pre-determined outcome that serves the initial small committee of ‘people who think they know better’. How conventional. How dishonest. How unfair is that? “Fasipulation” is not a form of democracy and a poor method of consultation.

        We have lots of international governance and failing to recognize that is an error. Law of the Sea, Telegraphic conventions, satellite orbit spaces, allocation of web names – lots and lots of things are decided based on international laws. Nothing wrong with that at all. Ultra-nationalism and isolationism are not the only alternatives to global domination by an unelected elite.

        Contributors should not support going off the deep end (“Island America”) just because we need to have some cooperation on major issues. There are numerous global issues and they cannot be settled by worshipping nationalism. If the USA supports democracy, do it, not talk about it for the US alone. The Paris Accord is not democratic and was not democratic in its genesis. It was also not done competently which is, alone, a good reason not to sign it. But it does not mean we should give up all the other international agreements which have served humanity well for over a century in some cases.

        Facipulate: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=facipulate

      • “Personally, I don’t see why people are so worried about world governance.”

        World government will be controlled by India and China.

        Do you really want to spend the rest of your life being told what to do by India and China?

      • Oldseadog, you must have been a stoker or engine room mechanic because you obviously didn’t learn anything about the weather, and, consequently, climate, from your time at sea.

      • Crispin in Waterloo
        June 2, 2017 at 3:51 pm

        Jared
        “………….. People are free to implement any CO2 reduction schemes they want to pay for…………………………..

        Hidden in your response to Jared is the root of the problem – They DON’T want to pay for their schemes, they want OTHER people to pay for their schemes.
        Behind their outward intentions lurks their true intention – to bring down capitalism as it currently exists and replace it with a Marxist/communist/socialist/green/progressive system of governance (choose one – they’re all the same). The renaming just tries to hide the fact that previous names have been rumbled. As with global warming – climate change etc.

        Never mind that so far all these systems have done is to fail miserably, leading to chaos/revolution/uprising/poverty/deaths etc etc.

        SteveT

      • “World government will be controlled by India and China.

        Do you really want to spend the rest of your life being told what to do by India and China?”

        Oh please, what will be the mechanism to make that happen? Not the UN – give me examples of laws passed by the UN which were forced on the US, where the US did not want to comply.

      • Can’t use what you don’t have.

        A two year old child can make better traffic control decisions, than all the third world software geniuses living on an H1B visa enslavement.

        The ability to write beautiful spaghetti code does not endow one with the ability to solve simple problems.

        That same two year old child can identify a tree ; ANY TREE, and distinguish it from the AT&T-Tree ; AKA a telephone pole.

        Those third world code writers cannot identify ANY tree, from a telephone pole.

        Well it is possible that some of those two year olds might not recognize a Boojum Tree. But there are few two year olds that have ever seen a boojum tree or a picture of one.

        G

    • we can all learn about the “global climate science denial industry” by watching the court case of Mann vs. Steyn (countered by Steyn vs Mann). This is an impending trial of interest and both sides well represented, one to win and one to lose. Mann has tried several times to abandon the suit he filed but Steyn counter-sued and won’t let it stop. Although this is dragging on it will eventually be the new version of Scopes Monkey Trial. Adult beverages and popcorn for sure. see http://www.steynonline.com.

      • ron long … at 10:16 am
        …Mann vs. Steyn (countered by Steyn vs Mann)… will eventually be the new version of Scopes Monkey Trial.

        Good one!

      • But it does raise the image of Mann throwing his feces around at the Senate hearings or anywhere else his credibility is questioned.

    • I’ll be more than happy to perform a study which will might support the alarmists’ new conspiracy theory.
      With past as prologue, there is already a long line of potential authors, applying for the position.

    • Just whatever you do-don’t look at the science! Avert your eyes, lest ye be enlightened!

    • cAgw seance

      “Definition of anthropomorphic
      1
      : described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes, anthropomorphic deities, stories involving anthropomorphic animals
      2
      : ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things, anthropomorphic supernaturalism. anthropomorphic beliefs about nature”

      Not sure which of the two fits best. But I’d say, in regards to the CAGW hypothesis, they need emphasis that it “morphs” all the time to fit what that “Anthropo” is the Cause that needs to be controlled.

      • The way “to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure, and the reach of the global climate science denial industry” is to join it. While you dwell within the CAGW realm you are ever happy there, but once you cross its borders you can never return again.

      • Gunga 3:11 pm:. Defining “anthropomorphic” reminds me; let’s also look at “anthropogenic.” E.g., if “carcinogenic” and “mutagenic” mean things that can generate cancer and mutations, and “photogenic” means something that emits or generates light or something that can result in a photograph, then “anthropogenic” means something that generates or results in an anthropoid (an ape-like or humanoid creature). A child’s or ape’s parents are anthropogenic. In vitro fertilization is anthropogenic. The word has been misinterpreted to mean something that is caused by humans; it’s actually the other way around. Someone who knows Greek or Latin perhaps could help generate an English word that would correctly have the intended meaning.

      • So what causes an anthropoid to suddenly get anthropomorphic ??

        R Lowland Gorrillas; that’s ” gorreeyas ” anthropomorphic ??

        G

  3. “the rejection of the science linking fossil-fuel burning to dangerous climate change”. I’ve been searching for over 10 years, but I’ve still to find the science linking fossil-fuel burning to dangerous climate change. But I am a scientist, so I perhaps look a bit harder than the Grauniad’s Graham Readfearn. He has no qualifications to make any claims about science, being an ex-BBC journalist (no surprise there).

      • Hi Philip. The Harrabins, Readferns and Shuckmans of this (BBC) world need challenging at every soundbite they utter. Currently, the meme seem to be that solar/wind is cheaper than coal, yet they offer no attribution for their claim. I shall be writing to the BBC to demand that controversial claims are backed up with references – at least on the programme’s website.

      • offer no attribution for their claim

        Nebulous “externalities”. Fossil fuel “subsidies”. Nameplate output figures quoted for intermittent supply renewables. Omission of water vapor/cloud effects. MWP.

        It’s as if everything they (alarmists) say is conditional, with crucial details just omitted for obvious reasons. It’s infuriating, but I suppose that itself is part of the strategy as well (i.e. frustrate “the enemy”).

        The gullibility (or is it really masqueraded malfeasance) of otherwise intelligent-appearing people is astounding.

    • I mean really what are the actual chances of any of the bad things they predict happening?

      Anyone? Chances? Anyone?

      Odd how they never ever actually want to answer that question.

      Now what are the actual chances something good happens from global warming?

      • I’d say 50:50. Either they will (do), or the won’t (don’t); only two choices there are.

        Probabilities only tell you the expected average frequency of qualified events, given a large number of candidate instances.

        Tells you exactly nothing about the very next event that is yet to occur.

        There was an occasion back in the 1960s where a University Statistical Mathematical Expert (self appointed no doubt) declared that the outcome of a single lottery event; an event that had never occurred before, was NOT RANDOM.

        The (non random) selection that actually occurred, happened to be ONE out of factorial 366 possible selections; every one of them as likely as the one that did occur. Factorial 366 is a number, larger by far than any person ever has a practical need for. No one needs to be able to distinguish between (factorial 366), and (factorial 366 -1).

        G

  4. …The Guardian Just Noticed Greens are Losing the Climate Debate…

    Yes. They just banned me again from commenting. Looks like they are circling their wagons and pulling up the drawbridge…

    • They banned me three times. The last time was when I posted a WMO piece about African temps being estimated and the need for 5000 automatic temp stations.

    • I have been banned too but I went back and re-registred and so kept on going. I have got some good licks in today and the hobgoblins are going nuts. They seem to realize that Trump has done something fatal to their obsession but they can’t figure out how he did it and they are in denial.

      None of them can see that there is no link whatsoever between man made CO2 and Global Destruction which is what their cause requires for it to be scary enough to harvest cash for their pursuits. Their day is over and Donald J Trump killed the beast.

      • Yes, the question is, just WHO is in denial. There is an old saying that when you point a finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at yourself. All this time, skeptics have been called “deniers,” when it is the alarmists who have had their heads in the sand.

    • I just checked. I’m not banned and have not had many recent posts deleted.
      Even when I linked to the IPCC AR5 which usually gets a snip.

      Maybe the fact that the Guardian has now come out for Corbyn means my other comments are more welcome.
      Perhaps the Guardian will come round on the climate issue too.

      • Yes! As a longtime player with words (there must be a name for people like us — apart from ‘idiot’!) I tried mixing the metaphor completely and ended up with “pulling up the wagons and circling the drawbridge”. Passes a dull Saturday morning!
        For the average Grauniad reader probably makes about as much sense.

      • As I recall, some of those wagons actually crossed rivers. So nyet on the effectiveness of drawbridges.

        I have a bridge, but it is not withdrawable.

        Izzere some reason why this stupid editor doesn’t speak English ??

        G

  5. “Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.”

    Yes, let us do that. Trey Gowdy gets my nomination as chief investigator. Let us have a thorough and penetrating investigation into … well, people just like me,

    Ask us, nay, interrogate us, at length. Transcribe and record our sworn statements.

    Then force the MSM publish them all, on the front page, without editing, to the world, under penalty of perjury.

    Deal?

      • Gets my vote as well, but how do you force the MSM to do something they don’t want to do because if they do it thay will look silly

      • Why wait to be interviewed? We can post our own screeds as to “How I Became A ‘Climate Denier” on various blogs, perhaps with a slightly puzzled take, as if to say, “I was a true believer, how did I end up here?”, while at the same time socking it to them with science.

  6. I am still waiting for my check from the Global Climate Science Denial Industry (GCSDI). I’m sure it’s simply lost in the mail and will arrive any day now. When it does, I’ll be able to retire to a tropical hot-spot in Antarctica.
    /snark

    • There is a nice little spot just around the corner from my secret underground base where I make nefarious plans and drink imported Russian vodka.
      It has a great view of my herds of penguins and polar bears.
      (I rescued the bears from the Arctic , they said the researchers were beginning to get on their nerves hopefully I didn’t mess with the count up there.)

      • Any Penguins at Vostok Base, would have to lick their vodka popsicles, and their tongues would likely stick to the popsickle.

        G

  7. A person becomes a liberal (er, now a “progressive”) when they decide, often in their teens, that they can continue to live in the feel-good world of make-believe rather than transitioning to living in the real world. This can be viewed in terms of where a person anchors their reality, in their private thoughts and feelings, or is the outside world the hard reality that they must compare their privates thoughts and feelings against?

    When a person decides that what they feel is more “real” than some fact or timeless principle of the outside world, they create a private reality that can be whatever they want. Things they don’t like can be excluded. More important, their failings are never their own fault because it becomes an easy reflex to excuse any failure. In essence their reality is continually malleable and plastic.

    You will notice that liberals do not share ideas by appealing to commonly known facts and principles. They convey ideas that “resonate” with others, much like the old high school science experiment with bells or chimes that vibrate in sympathetic resonance even though they are not touching.

    So it should not come as any surprise when a hive of liberal finds that people who anchor their reality externally refuse to accept the hive-meme of the day. The “facts” that liberals present for climate change are not solid and consistent. Way too many of their models simply cannot be validated by backtesting. Their demands converge far more to advance socialism than to advance the wellbeing of the biosphere we all depend upon for food. In short, “climate change” has all the hallmarks of being a liberal trojan horse to destroy liberty, prosperity and to justify big and ever bigger government.

    • ‘More important, their failings are never their own fault because it becomes an easy reflex to excuse any failure. In essence their reality is continually malleable and plastic.”

      Perhaps this explains Hillary C. and all her reasons for failure. Just never grew up.

    • The Green/Liberal/Progressive worldview is shaped mainly by emotion. Any rational thinking is secondary and used to support the emotional position rather than challenge it. Those of the G/L/P mindset are upset emotionally by contradiction and cannot bear being found wrong. None of us likes to be found wrong, but with this group it goes to the core of their being, meaning, and worth. Thus they fight with great tenacity and with few moral strictures or understanding of their inconsistencies (claiming a right to free speech will denying it to others, is simple example). They do not know themselves and like very young children cannot see how they behave as anything but noble and good. Feelings replace actions and manifest as virtue-signaling. Anger easily rises to hatred. If they weren’t so dangerous, pity would be enough response to their behavior. Until self-awareness dawns on a G/L/P, there is little hope of him changing.

      • There is a strong herd mentality to it , too . They consider their echo chamber can overpower reality , eg : that gender is just a social construct rather than grounded in the doublehelix structure of DNA .

        For me one of the appeals of mathematical physical science is its humbling requirement that you submit to mapping your mind to tested reality no matter how much of a morph that demands .

      • gender is just a social construct rather than grounded in the double helix structure of DNA

        “Science” for progressives is just a prop (an impressive stack of dubious ClimateChange™ research papers, for example) to be used to, uh, ‘prop up’ their non-load-bearing arguments. Sometimes science is used as a stick with which to beat The Bad Evil People (i.e., people who don’t agree with the groupthink– even though the groupthink can change at the drop of a hat, depending on if a Cult Cultural Commander decrees it so) or to be dismissed and ignored entirely (the DNA example above).

    • +97! Self-delusion is a communicable (and convenient) mental condition for many people and very common amongst hard core progressives.

    • Well most of them think that WW-II was a video game that resets itself tomorrow. The most noticeable thing about a rainbow, is that it is well on its way to getting around behind your arse.

      G

  8. They may be losing the debate, but doesn’t Herr Cook have a vaccine that will provide a solution – a solution that will finally win the war?

    • Yeah he does! Except that intelligent life forms are immune to the vaccine. He and Lew are embarrassments in the world of psychology. And since psychology has never really been highly respected in the first place, that’s quite the accomplishment.

      • Are they an embarrassment though? Who in the world of psychology is denouncing them?

        This to me is a mystery. Why have scientists, psychologists and others gone along with the damage to the good name of their chosen fields?

      • “This to me is a mystery. Why have scientists, psychologists and others gone along with the damage to the good name of their chosen fields?”

        Well, Forest, it seems to me the most logical answer is that the corruption of science in general has proceeded further than one might wish. Which is not to say each and every person is involved in corrupt/unethical practices, but that the organizations/institutions have been infiltrated and co-opted to the point where it’s very costly to speak openly about certain matters, and in particular the mass media has been corrupted to the point where there’s little hope of vindication/support from anyone with a personal reputation/career they don’t want destroyed.

        Not dissimilar to the way things work/have worked in many countries, wherein it’s virtual suicide to buck the “ruling elites” . . Just grown up, so to speak.

      • Well are you equating psychology with ” psychiatry “; which was best described by Ricky Ricardo, as ” Pee-sick-ee-a-tree ” with the accent on the “sick “. ??

        You have to be sick to get your jollies listening to the most intimate secrets of your victims, that their partners thought were private between them. And your fetish is carefully protected by secrecy laws, So why would you cure (if you even could) a “problem ” that is actually providing you with a legally protected income stream.

        Those witch doctors are the ultimate perverts.

        G

  9. “but the speech was laced with jingoistic protectionism.”

    He’s just upset because the backers of globalism lost one yesterday. He doesn’t understand that those voted from Trump want jingoistic protectionism from the likes of the globalists. Most of us don’t give a rat’s ass about what he and his cronies think. Let the world try to get along without the U.S.

  10. With the Alarmists’ Climate models now looking more like Mann’s Hockey Stick Graph, I can’t help but believe that Climate Alarmists are incapable of recognizing the Simple fact that all of their “Projections” and “Predictions” continue to diverge from REALITY. We have over 50 years of such Predictions, and not a single Claim has come to pass, yet these imbeciles continue to “accurately predict” what will happen in 10, 20, or 100 years!

  11. “Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”

    And nothing is more desperately defended than an idea whose time is up.

  12. What would you expect from the Guardian…

    It must really suck to spend all that time and money to get a journalism degree and then have to resort to presstitution to pay the bills.

    • It takes time to earn a journalistic degree? Time for what? This stuff looks easy:

      – Learn how to not check sources
      – Learn how to not to even use sources
      – God forbid you actually name a source
      – Learn how to substitute uninformed personal opinion for facts
      – Learn how to not quote both sides in a dispute
      – Learn how to breathlessly report trivial studies & comments

      Hmmmm. maybe this is the tough part:

      – Learn how to switch sides when the wind changes

      • What’s journalistic about a journalism degree ??

        Who needs journalists, when most newspapers simply reprint from the AP, or the NYT, or the LAT.

        By the time the LAT has cooled enough to actually put on the shelves, I have already erased from my mind the original source of that fake news that they are interpreting, and explaining to me, what I already actually heard somebody say in their own words.

        G

  13. “Why do Greens feel compelled to invent elaborate conspiracy theories to explain their failure to convert people to their cause? ”

    People devoted to a cause simply can’t see that they may be wrong.

    • They push nonsense conspiracies about their opponents to cover up their own accidental conspiracy that resulted from group think, confirmation bias and a destructive political ideology. Some may argue that it’s not accidental at all, but I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt.

      • They would say that faith alone is enough. While this is fine for something completely subjective like religion when all you’re really concerned about is what happens after you die, faith is insufficient as a justification for the objective scientific principles guiding the living world.

      • Faith alone is not just enough, it’s essential. Were there scientific evidence for the God hypothesis, then the value of faith would be diminished. If there mathematical proof certain of God, faith would have no value at all.

      • Ben Dover
        June 2, 2017 at 12:12 pm

        The Trinity, the Christian main way forward to salvation,,,,, repent, confess, accept fault and failure….and be back again in the beautiful “game” of life…..A new chance to “parley” again:)

        just trying a be funny…..honestly confessing..:)

      • “Does a devout Christian believe it when told there is no scientific proof of God?”

        No, because science is incapable of proving the existence of a non-physical being.

      • “Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
        The argument goes something like this: “I refuse to prove that I exist,’” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.”
        “But,” says Man, “The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.”
        “Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
        “Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”
        ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

      • “Does a devout Christian believe it when told there is no scientific proof of God?”

        Yes. The claim or question itself is something of a tautology. That thing for which no proof can exist is “God”. Those things for which proof exists is not “God”. It is *defined* that way for many instances of religion.

        People are looking in the wrong places for the wrong thing. God might be sitting next to you in McDonald’s right now. How can you know that he is, or is not, God? You cannot.

        What is God? If you define God, you have just created a straw-God; maybe it/he/she exists but probably not. If you do not define God, then it will be very difficult to prove or disprove that *something* exists, or does not exist, with unspecified properties! In fact, one can presume the existence of a thing whose properties are not known: “Is there a thing existing whose properties I do not define?” Indeed there is. Pick anything.

  14. Stern wants 4 trillion $ per year, and the best they can promise is avoiding a 0.2C increase in temperature in 80 years? They wonder why people won’t buy it? (except those that think the government should actually have all the money and distribute it as they see fit)

    • Stern is a loon and Jeremy Grantham who funds him is one too. Jeremy means well but is nto scientifically literate.

  15. W O W,
    Those guys are such poor losers that they need to invent an entire #Conspiracy-Industry to wrap their heads around the fallacy of their shortcomings.

  16. “Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.”

    So they are going to learn proper scientific procedures, math based statistical analysis, proper scoping of variables, the difference between empirical and inferential evidence, how to set up testable hypothesis, how to properly verify or eliminate said hypothesis, etc.? Sounds like a lot of work. . .

    • Yup…..And even more work when you consider how many of them likely either never took high school physics or if they did, they flunked the course. Words are their specialty, the more meaningless the better, just as long as whatever it is is easily memorized, recalled and regurgitated. Analytical thought processes are a strange and foreign concept.

  17. Bannon once called global warming a “manufactured crisis”.

    A crisis is a time when people will accept change. The way it goes is: The old way isn’t working, let’s try this new way.

    By manufacturing a climate crisis, the left is trying to create a situation whereby they can abolish capitalism. link, link

  18. “inventing elaborate fantasies of shadowy right wing conspiracies”

    Much like what Hillary Clinton is doing right now on her ” I am really the President” tour.

  19. Someone should tell them that refusing to debate the science is interpreted by many that you don’t think you can win the debate. And using Bill Nye as a proxy is like sending a rodeo clown into the ring. (No offense to rodeo clowns.)

    • Actually that is a very good comparison. The job of the rodeo clown is to distract the angry bull so he does not gore the star. Bill gets stand center stage and attract the attention while the former personalities slip quietly off stage and pretend they were never there.

  20. Thanks, I had not considered the rehashing and updating of such old terminology of activists from military industrial complex to climate science denial industrial complex. The simpleton mind of libs is both repetitive as it is shallow. Stupid is as stupid does.

  21. To borrow a term from another busted theory, Freudianism, the green blob as exemplified by the Grauniad is indulging in projection–attributing their own faults to others. The green blob does fit the description of a conspiracy or a secular religion, with preachers and an orthodoxy.

    • Perhaps it resembles an ideology more! The groupthink is more like the ideology of the U.S.S.R. Remember East Germany.

  22. I look forward to there now being a mature, adult debate about this issue in the USA. My only fear is that this gets smothered by virtue signalling media folks and doesn’t reach the UK.

    We are constantly told this issue just a matter of basic physics, and there is overwhelming supporting evidence.

    If it’s just basic physics, it should be easy to explain. If the evidence is overwhelming, it should be easy to present persuasively.

    But anybody who dares to ask an awkward question is immediately condemned for expressing a non-expert opinion.

    If only experts can understand it, it cannot be just basic physics. And if the evidence cannot be presented persuasively, it cannot be overwhelming.

    • Remember to capitalize: Basic Physics, not just basic physics. There’s nothing basic about the physics of climate. But when you want to insult your opponents, you put a sneer and say Basic Physics; maybe draw out the BAAsic physics!

    • Indur Goklany asks: “Does insulting one’s opponent win the argument?”

      It works on 40 to 60 percent of the population. It doesn’t matter if you actually “win” anything; what matters is what your target audience perceives, strength versus weakness. In the scenario I describe, the idea is to cast “Basic Physics” as a natural Good, and anyone that does not comprehend Basic Physics is an idiot, which is cast as naturally Bad.

      You have doubtless noticed that in nearly every instance where “Basic Physics” is proclaimed, no example is offered of what exactly *is* Basic Physics, neither does it matter. It is whatever I want it to be Right Now.

      This suggests a good response is to ask “describe this basic physics” and it’s off to the races.

  23. A few questions for our alarmist friends on here.

    What would stop Trump and America from continuing to clean air and water, and producing cleaner energy outside of a Paris Accord? Why do we need to specifically help other countries clean up their act? Why do we need someone in Brussels to tell us how much CO2 a power plant in Montana can produce? Can’t we figure that out for ourselves? After all, we reduced our CO2 footprint by 18% in the last 20 years without an Accord because of our investment in renewable energy and industrial automation.

    The real question is why does the USA need to stay in the Paris Accords in order to reduce our footprint? What specifically in that Accord will actually help us do better? Better environmental training? Being able to acquire advanced green technologies? What?

    • Don’t forget our switch from coal to gas for electricity.

      But you’re right, we don’t need to be told what to do by anybody else, we can do good things off our own bat.

    • The switch from coal to natural gas was probably the biggest factor.

      Now, to your question “[w]hy do we need to specifically help other countries clean up their act?” This was explained on the radio yesterday (less than an hour after the POTUS announced the US’ intention to leave the Paris Accord) – because the USA was the world’s greatest CO2 polluter, and that has damaged and is still damaging, and will forevermore damage the developing nations, it is our responsibility to pay them to recover from all the damages we inflicted. It’s so simple.

    • Carbon Dioxide is not a pollutant, it’s plant food. If it were Tucker, every breath you take or have ever taken would be considered as polluting & I’m not talking halitosis. Therefore, whether the USA has reduced Carbon Dioxide emissions by 18% or not, is irrelevant. Burning coal to produce electricity is sensible. That’s not my opinion, but Merkel’s government in Germany. She closed 8 nuclear power stations in the wake of Fukushima, but between 2011 and 2015 Germany opened 10.7 GW of new coal fired power stations. The output of these new units matches the combined output of all Germany’s solar & wind farms. However, investment decisions for these new coal fired power stations were made between 2005 & 2008.

      https://carboncounter.wordpress.com/2015/06/06/why-germanys-nuclear-phaseout-is-leading-to-more-coal-burning/

      Carbon Dioxide it not the problem, it’s green socialism & the sooner it’s stamped out, the better it will be for the poorer nations of the world. Africa needs cheap electricity & the nation that delivers that will win the hearts & minds of Africa. So far, that is China. The West ignores this at its peril.

      http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/07/05/iea-china-has-built-a-third-of-africas-power-capacity/

  24. It is perfectly possible to accept the science and still reject the proposed solutions. The Greens and Alarmists seem to ignore this – deny it if you will,

    Even if I believed in all the climate science, I am utterly unconvinced by the politics and economics. And both have been imposed without any real discussion or debate, and with a fair few lies about both how bad it will be if we do nothing and what it will cost to solve the problem.

    What we are seeing is not so much a rejection of science, but a growing understanding from people that the solution is going to cost them money, jobs and sovereignty, and lead to despoliation of the countryside and a disregard for other environmental issues. Oh, and a few getting rich at our expense.

    In other words, the Greens and Progressives are losing the political argument, as they always do once implementation of their ideas occurs.

    • The trick is to kill their ideas before the implementation, thus preventing the damage instead of having to cope with it afterwards. We’re not doing so good on that score!

    • Tim Hammond June 2, 2017 at 10:02 am
      It is perfectly possible to accept the science and still reject the proposed solutions.

      I think there’ll be some rehabilitation of geoengineering. It has been too summarily dismissed.

      • Actually the issue for me is not that there may be an impact from CO2 emissions but the claim in the Guardian article that we reject the science linking fossil-fuel burning to dangerous climate change.

        This all hinges around materiality of the change, I still cant believe that there is any measurable impact.

        The final weakness is the grasping for evidence when the 0.7C since 1850 is rolled out and we know that the first 100 years of that time period were subject to just 10% of the present day human tally of CO2 emissions.

        Why not talk about the temperature change post 1950 and the rate of change increase since then relative to the 1850 to 1950 period. the word dangerous would soon be lost.

  25. The foundation for Trump’s dismissal of the Paris deal – and for the people who pushed him the hardest to do it – is the rejection of the science linking fossil-fuel burning to dangerous climate change.
    ============
    this is a fundamental error. the worst case projection shows that the risk is 0.3C from US withdrawal. Does anyone seriously think 0.3C temperature change is dangerous? It is the same change you get by moving 150 feet lower down a hillside. Few if any human beings can detect such a change without instruments.

    calling a 0.3C change in temperature dangerous is not science.

  26. The most remarkable statement comes in another piece today:

    “Even a flattening of the decline in US carbon emissions – if not compensated for by other nations – will slow progress and might bump up global warming by a tenth of a degree or two. That could be enough to push the most vulnerable nations under the waves of a rising ocean.”

    One or two tenths of a degree warming will push vulnerable nations under the waves? This will happen because the US fails to meet its commitments, which are to lower emissions by some 2 billion tons, from a total now of a bit over 5 billion.

    On the other hand, the continuing emissions of 10 billion tons by the Chinese, and their published intentions to raise this number to 15 billion, what effect will that have?

    “Most remarkable is China, the world’s biggest polluter, which has transitioned from climate laggard to climate leader in recent years.”

    That’s right. If you are the US and you fail to reduce by 2 billion tons, you are pushing vulnerable nations under the waves. If you are China and you raise emissions by 5 billion tons, you are transitioning to climate leader.

    It is complete insanity.

  27. Guys, guys, guys… Rememer, this whole climate scare thing is, and has been, a WAR. Donald Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Accord is just one BATTLE won. There are many battles ahead. Also keep in mind that our friend Trump is a politician – and politicians tend to change their minds (when it suits them).

  28. Cutting off a promised stream of free money to others always involves a lot of yelling and name calling, for a few days anyway. Trump could have gone further to list what Americans already pay for in the ARGO system, satellites, and the climate research industrial complex that ranges from real science all the way to funded theater performances and poetry about global warming. Those who are still underemployed in America need to see all of that to go with what they already see in the the foreign workforce in their communities.

  29. I’m troubled. I don’t like Trump’s supporting argument, which is that the “deal” is a bad one for the U.S. He did not tackle the flawed science and as I monitor the news cycle, I see NOBODY arguing the science.

    We need the flawed science EXPOSED if we want public sentiment to swing our way.

    (Sorry about the shouting).

    • Clearly, Trump is not a climate scientist. He is merely a politician. Worse still, he has a responsibility and takes it seriously.

    • @Oatley-I agree. He certainly could have stated that there has been no warming for almost 20 years and that the theory cannot explain that. That alone may have put the Alarmists on their heels or provoked a useful argument on the science.

    • He should set up a White House site where a team of skeptics could counter warmist arguments.

      • Roger Knights
        June 2, 2017 at 11:31 am

        He should set up a White House site where a team of skeptics could counter warmist arguments.
        —————–

        Actually that can not be done, and it is not even necessary.
        There in the Congress,,,,,,,, the distinguished USA scientist have already spoken and clearly….that is it.
        Any one that thinks that this is not enough, for what ever reason, can get their bum and get before Congress and testify….. as simple as that…….

        Congressional testimonies are a very serious matter to consider……The megaphones in the street or from MSM are just noise compared to it…….PUB “science” is just that, no more no less…..

        Sorry it seems to be a done deal already as far as USA and it’s constitution concerned…..

        No guts, unfortunately no case….regardless of how much noise or shouting, or praying to whatever for the and of AGW, even in a heavy snowing day..:P

        cheers

      • The public is not very aware of congressional testimony—and there is lots of warmist testimony too. The court of public opinion is in session, and it’s important politically to Trump (see below). He needs to let his allies use his bully pulpit to defend what he’s done or his party will suffer.

        “Democrats see political opportunity in Trump’s decision to abandon Paris climate deal”
        By John Wagner, Abby Phillip, http://www.washingtonpost.comView June 2nd, 2019

        Trump, whose approval rating has hovered around 40 percent for most of his presidency, probably did not gain new converts with his decision, and Democrats now see an opportunity to further intensify the focus of their base in upcoming midterm elections. They also foresee the climate-change decision as a key part of their broader argument to college-educated swing voters who have been among Trump’s weakest supporters.

        “He’s unleashed a number of forces that I don’t think he understands that ultimately are going to work against him,” said Tad Devine, a longtime political strategist and former adviser to Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders’s presidential run. “People are interpreting this not as my house is going to be flooded tomorrow, but our federal government is being run by people who don’t care about science.”
        . . . . . . . . .
        For college-educated moderates, including some Republicans, the issue could become emblematic of the Trump administration’s disdain for science and the long-lasting consequences of his leadership.

        “It’ll affect Trump in that there are moderate Republicans who believe in science,” said Democratic pollster Anna Greenberg. “It has implications for the midterms if they’re not that excited about being involved in this mess.”

        Climate change alone has never been much of a motivator for the electorate, although younger voters typically name it as one of their top issues in polling. A recent Pew Research Center poll found that 38 percent of Americans said it was a top priority, compared with 76 percent who name terrorism and 73 percent who said the same of the economy.

        Yet climate change and the environment are issues that move political money in the Democratic world like little else. Major Democratic donors, such as financier and environmentalist Tom Steyer, who co-founded NextGen Climate, insist that Trump’s move is yet another provocation that will push younger people to become more engaged in politics.
        . . . . . . . . . . . . .

        The risk for Republicans in the near term remains that even small shifts in enthusiasm could make the difference in competitive congressional races.

        “All these things cumulatively spell real trouble for my party,” said Republican strategist John Weaver, who worked on Ohio Gov. John Kasich’s presidential bid. “It adds passion to the left, which brings us one step closer to Speaker [Nancy] Pelosi.”

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democrats-see-political-opportunity-in-trumps-decision-to-abandon-paris-climate-deal/2017/06/02/c05229da-47ae-11e7-a196-a1bb629f64cb_story.html?utm_term=.6c8b90c4bacd

    • The deal was so bad, there was no need to address the broken science to justify withdrawal. Pruitt, and I suspect Bannon, do seem to grasp how broken the science is, however; the broken science has become the status quo and will be difficult to diffuse, so it was a good decision to show how bad the accord was, even based on the flawed science that dramatically over estimates the effect of CO2 emissions.

    • This might be what is sometimes call DJT’s 4-d chess. It appears a blunder avoiding the science fraud and offering “renegotiation’s”. How is validating the fraud of your adversary ever a good idea?

      Time and again The Donald has put out inane arguments devoid of objective logic only win by encouraging his enemies to destroy themselves in reaction. Maybe keeping the academic left climate cartel around serves a political purpose or maybe it’s been calculated that totally dismantling and destroying the Greenshirt left costs more politically then its worth. Post exit they may well destroy themselves trying to remain authoritative, I can imagine this likely in fact. You take kingly climate authority away you have bunch of later middle aged academic hipsters with an ancient and stale set of talking points. AGW is really old in the contrived political talking points world. They’ve been at hard since the 70’s effectively. Balding, overweight, rotting teeth with a pony tale just isn’t that politically hot and now with the exit they are confirmed LOSERS. Perhaps DJT is right and realizes they don’t even merit special targeting. The core greenshirts are dying in nursing homes soon enough. Also, perhaps a new wave Democrat leader will connect the dots and realize aligning with the UN world rule, anti-American left wasn’t the best strategy to begin with.

      I know this, DJT isn’t going to cut off the billions in green subside fraud and deal with the natural market force unemployment and public equity devastation. He’s not going to wear that yolk around his neck. The scammers are safe for the moment. It will take $1 a gallon gas prices to do that handy work, not pulling the solar panel subsides from the government. You know he made that calculation by endorsing the corn factors and ethanol crony fraud.

      I thought the economic, sovereignty speech half a loaf myself. Obviously they made their political calculation and went this route. Without the US “Paris” redistribution the climate “movement” and all the crony forward beneficiaries are in for some downsizing. The EU climate cult is under serious pressure already. If the carbon price is driven further down the green money bubble is under forces it can’t survive. The political fallout will be the Trump policy without ever be named or targeted. This happened on a much smaller scale in the late 70’s and early 80’s with the Reagan oil deregulation policy.

      While I didn’t like “don’t touch” the science fraud policy yesterday I’ve learned not to underestimate DJT and his instincts. We might be looking at the events due to our hobby stake in the debate as well. They’re playing for a much wider electorate that in fact largely doesn’t care about detailed climate policy. It’s low information on both sides when it gets to yesterday’s scale the MSM presentation illustrates it. Now that we’re in the post exit world perhaps Pruitt and others can do some of the heavier science reforms such as firing Gavin Schmidt and the rest of the NASA/NOAA climate trolls which is long over due. It looks like decades more of hand to hand climate war disguised as academic debate. Where is that skeptic organization trying to message Betsy DeVos at the Education Department on cleaning out climate propaganda dressed as “science”?

      Trump’s potential weakness fits the crowd of supporters around him. The skeptic support base are largely contradictory, nerd driven and politically obtuse. The core Breitbart wing? Not that interested either, immigration is their trigger issue for them. Harder core skeptics didn’t get the ideal payback yesterday because we frankly haven’t earned it.

      • Debating the science would be a quagmire.
        The “Consensus” scientists now have the burden of proof to demonstrate rising CO2 will be catastrophic. They have the “hot potato”.
        Don’t get pushed into the impossible position of trying to prove a negative; i.e. the equivalent of showing that unicorns never existed.
        Job loss, electric bills, gas prices and “Fairness” are concepts the general public can absorb.

    • On important matters you are allowed to shout a bit (as long as you shout about the “right” things).

    • arguing the (lack of) science cuts no ice with voters.

      protecting their incomes does.

    • Science is nearly irrelevant in a policy decision. When has it ever been otherwise? Trump’s argument is economic; a nation 19 trillion dollars in debt cannot continue to hand out money and sabotage any hope of reducing that debt.

  30. “Greens are inventing elaborate fantasies of shadowy right wing conspiracies” … this is standard from the left when they fail to win an argument or election, it used to be the fault of the right-wing media, but that no longer applies, now it is “fake news” and conspiracies. Surely this is a worthy subject for academic study, why lefties are incapable of grasping the real reasons for losing.

    • These Greens … “Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.”

      They probably believe the moon landing was faked as well. Mebbe somebody can get a grant and falsify a study.

  31. The simple truth is that people who plot and conspire in complicated subterfuge always assume that others do exactly the same.

    Greens operate through networks which plot and conspire together to achieve their aim – small wonder then whenever they face setbacks that they assume that there is some ‘conspiracy’ that has defeated them.

    • It’s what you get in a sociology department, or perhaps from the New York Times that famously pronounced rockets cannot fly in space because there’s no air to push against.

  32. “Greens are inventing elaborate fantasies of shadowy right wing conspiracies to explain President Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Treaty – but still refuse to consider the possibility they are wrong about global warming.”

    I did notice an enormous number of heads of state/governments and international organisations and the Pope all accept the science of climate change and have also denounced or criticised Trump’s action.

    I haven’t seen a single national leader/govt outside the US praise, applaud or welcome Trump’s announcement.

    Added to that the CEOs of a great number of the world’s largest companies which operate in the US criticised Trump’s stance – which is odd, because if he’s right their profits and workers and business would have been decimated by the US being in the Paris agreement.

    Really I think its up to those who don’t accept the science to explain how so many national leaders and businessmen and people of importance in the world can be ‘wrong’ and not accept the President’s vviewpoint…?

    • The US President’w view is that the Paris Accords are bad for the USA. Not that they are bad for the countries the USA has to give money too or lose a competitive edge against.

      Of course China will support something that they don’t have to obey for 15 years but which hamstrings the USA.

      You have just detected that politics is cynical.

      • M Courtney, who exactly has the US given money to in your accusation? The entire US corporate world is against this decision = except for the coal companies. If it is bad for the US, why is that the case?

      • Chris, the stock market rose immediately. In your world, that’s the usual way the corporate world expresses a disagreement.

      • Curious George, I go by what the companies themselves say. You have a few coal companies on your side, and half a dozen semi retired climate scientists. That’s your “A” team. Sad.

      • Chris, the Paris Accords are quite explicit.
        They say quite clearly that rich, developed countries should give money to developing countries to ensure they can cope with climate change.
        The USA has to pay most because it is richest.

        Personally, I think we in the West should pay the poor to help them develop. It is compassionate and will make the world a better place.
        But not because of false arguments about 0.2°C temperature rises. Only honest arguments will last long enough to change to world.

        Here is the relevant section of the treaty:

        FINANCE
        53. Decides that, in the implementation of the Agreement, financial resources provided to developing countries should enhance the implementation of their policies, strategies, regulations and action plans and their climate change actions with respect to both mitigation and adaptation to contribute to the achievement of the purpose of the Agreement as defined in Article 2; 54. Also decides that, in accordance with Article 9, paragraph 3, of the Agreement, developed countries intend to continue their existing collective mobilization goal through 2025 in the context of meaningful mitigation actions and transparency on implementation; prior to 2025 the Conference of the Parties serving as the meeting of the Parties to the Paris Agreement shall set a new collective quantified goal from a floor of USD 100 billion per year, taking into account the needs and priorities of developing countries; 55. Recognizes the importance of adequate and predictable financial resources, including for results-based payments, as appropriate, for the implementation of policy approaches and positive incentives for reducing emissions from deforestation and forest degradation, and the role of conservation, sustainable management of forests and enhancement of forest carbon stocks; as well as alternative policy approaches, such as joint mitigation and adaptation approaches for the integral and sustainable management of forests; while reaffirming the importance of non-carbon benefits associated with such approaches; encouraging the coordination of support from, inter alia, public and private, bilateral and multilateral sources, such as the Green Climate Fund, and alternative sources in accordance with relevant decisions by the Conference of the Parties;

        And here is the link to what you are supporting.

      • Chris
        Here is a quick Google search looking for Obama & Green Fund
        https://www.google.ca/search?as_q=Obama&as_epq=Green+fund&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=
        First on the list is this from the Independent in the UK

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/obama-signs-check-to-green-climate-fund-that-trump-threatened-to-cut-a7532581.html

        Three days before leaving the White House, President Barack Obama sent a $500 million check Tuesday to the Green Climate Fund, an international organization designed to help poor countries adopt clean energy technologies.

        Today’s check is the second payment from the Obama administration, marking a total of $1 billion in contributions to help developing nations cope with the threat of climate change, the State Department said in a statement

        So in 2 payments on his last 3 days in office, President Obama, acting as an official U.S. representative, gave US$1bn to other countries

    • Added to that the CEOs……….

      Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
      SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
      Solyndra ($535 million)*
      Beacon Power ($43 million)*
      Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
      SunPower ($1.2 billion)
      First Solar ($1.46 billion)
      Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
      EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
      Amonix ($5.9 million)
      Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
      Abound Solar ($400 million)*
      A123 Systems ($279 million)*
      Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
      Johnson Controls ($299 million)
      Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
      ECOtality ($126.2 million)
      Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
      Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
      Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
      Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
      Range Fuels ($80 million)*
      Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
      Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
      Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
      GreenVolts ($500,000)
      Vestas ($50 million)
      LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
      Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
      Navistar ($39 million)
      Satcon ($3 million)*
      Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
      Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

    • We do accept the science, and so does Donald. It is up to those who support Climate Science Fiction like you and the Guardian to explain why for 18 years there was no statistical rise in temperature yet CO2 increased. You can also explain what caused the Medieval Warm Period, the Roman Warm Period and the Minoan Warm Period – all warmer than today.

    • Explain why you think he was wrong on the economics of the deal? Did you even notice that was the main thrust of the speech? Why don’t yo address that. The reason the rest of the world wants the U S in the deal is because we bring loads of cash that others think they can have. Make no mistake, that is the only reason.

      • well fine Chris…if it’s not about the money….then what’s the problem? Can’t be CO2…the US has already reduced that.
        …and since it’s not about the money, no one is stopping the rest of the world…they didn’t need us at all

      • Latitude, there’s a concept called leadership.Look it up in the dictionary if the word is not familiar to you.

      • see….now that’s where you and I differ
        What I just saw was strong leadership…

        ..and you’re saying following along and status quo is

      • it’s not just a matter of reducing CO2 by a small amount – just switching from coal to natural gas will do that. It’s a matter of taking additional steps in increasing renewable energy, making progress on energy efficiency, and on CAFE standards for vehicles.

    • Quote: … all accept the science of climate change …

      Oh no you don’t Griff. I realise this is just you pouting and sooking as a device to continue your comedy career, but no way do you get away with your false premise.

      What is being “accepted” is simply virtue signalling over a matter of a false faith. It has nothing whatsoever to do with science.

    • Very simple McGriff: Those that receive and do nothing to earn, believe that they should continue to receive. Those that pay, and receive nothing in return, think they should not have to continue to pay. It is the same struggle that the public has been having with governmental bodies, since they first were forced upon free people. And the struggle continues. If we pay for something, we expect to get something of value in return. And what we get instead is propaganda, aimed at convincing us, we need to pay more in order to avoid the future boogeyman.
      The key thought for you to take away from this is: The idea that the Earth currently faces a manmade climate crisis is quite simply nonsense.
      So I hope you are getting paid to troll. Otherwise you have wasting a sizable amount of your life, trying to turn lead into gold.

    • @Griff
      Do you really think the Pope is an authority on the science of global climate? Laughable nonsense from Griff! We count on it! The rest are all looking after their image-ala Justin Trudeau of whom I am ashamed. Just an ego parading around the world with other people’s money.
      If you want me to explain how all these people can be wrong I would simply point to the state of the world’s finances, as created by all these same idiots. Elected by the millions of lesser idiots who can’t count and only care about keeping power by not rocking the boat.

    • Appeal to authority?
      where is the science?

      in terms of climate change who does NOT benefit by espousing climate change?
      Only the electorate.

      For everyone else it is a most convenient lie which keeps them in power and money.

      Doesn’t it Griff?

      • The science is there. You just choose not to believe it.

        “in terms of climate change who does NOT benefit by espousing climate change?
        Only the electorate.”

        Tell me , then, how does Walmart benefit by espousing climate change?

    • The reason that so many notional leaders and businessman and people of importance won’t accept the Presidents viewpoint, is because they are the very people who stand to benefit the most from the whole global warming meme. For them it’s the venerable goose that lays the golden eggs. It’s literally every politicians dream, because it is a cause that justifies their existence, which of course is to save us from ourselves. For the business community, particularly, wind and solar it’s an endless stream of government subsiditys, and for the people of importance, I’ll assume we’re talking about Academics, its funding for one grant proposal to the next. It’s not about accepting the science, science is verifiable, or it’s not science. It’s about control, control of you, your money, your way of life.

      • Wrong. Walmart will not benefit. Microsoft will not. Google will not. McDonalds does not.

      • Chris, I wonder sometimes if you read the comment you respond to. The multinational companies you cite benefit from globalism; Donald Trump is challenging globalism even though he is also a beneficiary of it. Most globalists, in my opinion, don’t mean to include their own nation in the proletariat; Germany for instance would very much like to rule this new almost-a-world-government thing.

        It is easy to figure out who intended to be in charge; just look at the vitriol of their comments; Merkel seems to top the list.

        If Donald Trump were to rule globalization, which may well be his goal, he’s got a good start on it.

    • All the dictators can’t be wrong, can’t they, not to speak of the money-grabbers, and the pope is infallible in matters of (climate-)believe, isn’t he?

      • It is too soon to say whether anyone is right or wrong. In 80 years our descendants, if any, will have an answer. Meanwhile there’s a war for your mind and your money, a war that probably started before words could be written in clay.

    • “Really I think its up to those who don’t accept the science to explain how so many national leaders and businessmen and people of importance in the world can be ‘wrong’ and not accept the President’s vviewpoint…?”

      Why is it always “the science” rather than just “science”? Answer: It has become “the science”, a dogma, a new religion, that must be accepted in total or else you become a heretic, a social outcast on the world stage.

      I accept science, even some of “the science” (such as it is) and I STILL accept the president’s viewpoint which is economic rather than scientific. It is, or was, a bad deal for the United States. His view on “the science” is nearly irrelevant; I don’t know what it is and neither do you.

      Every human on Earth can be wrong about any particular claim at any particular time. But when that is the case, what is the benefit to being the only right person on Earth? Rocket scientist Goddard was ridiculed by the New York Times who asserted that even a high school student knows rockets cannot fly in space because there’s no air to push against. Of course nobody had actually tried to fly a rocket in space, that would be scientific (test by experiment) and we don’t need no steenkin science!

  33. “Climate debate?” What is that? There never has been one, and there never will be one. The Guardian is just trying to scare its climate alarmist followers yet again, by suggesting that the Greens are losing the debate. Hello, the debate never existed!

      • Yeah, the global business community, which supports the Paris accord, are wankers. Are you a Communist?

      • ‘Global business community’?

        Ah that shadowy cabal of secret bankers that speaks with one voice? that does sound a bit tinfoil hat to me.

        However, would that be the same ‘business community’ that benefits directly from all the subsidies and tax rebates accruing to renewable energy, or is that the community the Guardian refers to when it talks about the huge tax rebates govern to ‘fossil fuel’?

        Or is it the ‘global capitalist’ community it rails against when promoting the interests of its Marxist readership?

        I think we should be told

      • You’re the pathetic one, Forrest. “Alarmists have always been wankers.” The true sign of an intellectual lightweight is when personal insults are their method of debating.

      • Chris, your feeble attempt to put words into my mouth started this. What you wrote was pathetic. You deserved nothing more than my response.

        And now you double down trying to rescue yourself from your pathetic line.

      • Leo Smith, 30 seconds of searching on Google will give you your answer. Companies like Walmart, McDonalds, Pepsi, Coca Cola. All the consumer products companies. None of these companies will gain from the Paris Accord. On your side, tell me who the corporates are who say AGW is not real? Go ahead, I’ll wait.

  34. Is there any greater lie then the climate debate being politically neutral at the core?

    Yet, many of the most frequent “skeptic” posters here back that claim for over a decade now. Once you address the lie directly the entire debate becomes explainable. If you live in the science only or mostly cocoon you’ve set the actual debate back and the politically corrupted academic activists/scientists ahead. Consider this is from the skeptic orthodox, add that to the warming left and you see why we’re still here.

    • Your comment didn’t make a lot of sense to me. Skeptics are not themselves a thing, a cabal, aligned among themselves along any axis of alignment.

  35. “Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.”

    Um, for a decade they have been screaming that the conspiracy is some known fact.

    And, now they are going to begin examining it?

    This is like the “Russians hacked the election” story: “we are sure it happened. Soon, we will get an investigation to figure out where, how, and who.”

    -Um, if you already know, just come out and say.

  36. Uh-ohs, we’re in trouble now. They are mad as heck, and can’t take it any longer. No more Mr. Nice Guy. They will be sending industrial spies here to lurk, and watch everything we say and do. We will need a secret code to communicate, changed daily by HQ. Shhhhhh! Mum’s the word now. Loose lips sink ships.

  37. Worth remembering that the Grauniad (famous for its ‘corrections and clarifications’) is haemorrhaging money and only kept afloat by the automobile industry (sale of ‘Autotrader’) and tax avoidance industry (proceeds booked via Caymans to avoid making their fair contribution to the upkeep of the workers’ paradise). The only readers are public sector employees, teachers and lecturers, and BBC.

    • Actually they have a trust fund to bankroll them but at the current rate of loss they will not last a decade. Hard to believe that it used to be a respected paper back when liberal did not mean a leftist tosser.

      • The Scott Trust was the beneficiary of the tax efficient sale of Autotrader. Scott Trust is tax efficient too of course “up the workers!”.

  38. Anybody who thinks they can assign dollar amounts to the Earth’s temperature changes is not very smart or they’re sure everyone else is not very smart.

    To say that:
    the USA refusing $100B per year re-distributon will “cause” .3C rise in temperature
    is patently stupid.

  39. Just watched your Whitehouse press conference with Sean Spicer re Paris Accord in what looks like a basement. Best place to ‘host’ the journalist vermin who now must be considered as low as bankers and estate agents in the public esteem. Well down Potus from UK

  40. “They just convinced the leader of the United States to pull the plug on a historic deal signed by almost 200 countries, and instead join Nicaragua and Syria as the only countries not signed up.”

    I don’t think Readfearn reads his own newspaper.

    A December 12, 2015 Guardian article featuring the climate science prophet Dr. James Hansen, is all President Trump needed to read in order to decide to extract the U.S. from the Paris Climate Accord.

    ““It’s a fraud really, a fake,” he says, rubbing his head. “It’s just bullshit for them to say: ‘We’ll have a 2C warming target and then try to do a little better every five years.’ It’s just worthless words. There is no action, just promises. As long as fossil fuels appear to be the cheapest fuels out there, they will be continued to be burned.”

  41. Psychological Projection, are they simply accusing others (us) of what they themselves are guilty. Oldest trick in the book.
    Or is it chaff, a distraction. A distraction from the fact that none of them, not one, could or can put together a coherent story about how this GHG Effect actually works. (Without trampling the laws of thermodynamics and calling upon positive feedback. The very fact we are here discussing it means the positive feedback thing is junk) Or explain how temperature relates to climate.

    Or, as I maintain, sugar is destroying not just bodies but also minds. It takes strong character and courage to admit a mistake. Even minor.
    Any of us who has, while stone cold sober, entered a ‘debate’ with a drunk will know. The depressed, inhibited, switched off brain thinks it can lie and lie and lie and will call on its friends (consensus/authority) to try escape any sort of rap. From spilling a drink to wrecking its own car and will readily resort to verbal and physical violence to defend those lies.
    Sugar is simply un-refined alcohol. It has the same effect but not so strong.

    So hardly anyone no-one will *ever* admit they were/are wrong about cagw because, we have nothing else substantial to eat any more. There are too many of us to allow that.

    I don’t have a solution.

  42. The Guardian has wedded itself to the church of ‘Climate Change’ but finds its faith increasingly under question and one rich parishioner has just quit attending church. So, invoke the devil, challenge the believers to uncover his devious ways, and amplify the warnings about hell and damnation.
    But behind it all is desperation because, if their dire predictions about climate change prove to be wrong (as they will), the Guardian will lose the last shreds of its credibility. It is already losing money, so further erosion of their readers/subscribers must be really scary. All they can do is yell louder. So it is with the faithful, (although don’t rule out the stamping of feet on the floor).

  43. Liberal behavior is often based on the psychological issue of projection. They subconsciously know that THEY have a global climate change progressive/academia industry. So they assume that the “bad people” must have one too.

      • Chris,
        I’d like to thank you for the great effort you expend to communicate with those you disagree with. I guess that is the sum total of your arguments.

      • Clyde Spencer, when I see a nonsensical post, it’s not worth any more of my effort. I know a lost cause when I see one.

        Joel, nah, everything is good here. A carbon tax is being rolled out, the government is fully committed to the Paris Accords, and industry is doing their part It’s nice to be a doer, and not a whiner.

      • Chris writes: “it’s not worth any more of my effort.”

        But it is worth the effort to post some z’s. Maybe 0.2 on the effort scale. You have not responded to most of the postings here so why is this one worth 0.2 Effort and the rest 0.0 Effort?

        The question answers itself: It resonates with you. Psychological projection is interesting to you; most of the comments here are not interesting to you. I do not have enough information to guess why it is interesting to you but your other comments suggest you are strongly motivated by group think; if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you? Very likely so, they know something you do not. This is the inverse of projection; the herd projects itself into you rather than you into the herd.

        When a herd is stampeding it is doubtful that any member of the herd actually knows why the stampede is happening; but none wishes to find out whether there’s actually a lion chasing the herd. Herd mentality evolved for a good reason. But humans would still be living in caves if *some* humans did not leave the herd and go exploring for better forage and better methods of shelter, food and protection. These explorers then return to the herd and suggest a better place.

        BUT this can be counterfeited to a predator’s advantage; trick the herd into thinking a box canyon is a better place, and it will be better until the predator starts eating members of the herd and they cannot escape.

        The box canyon in this metaphor is international treaties. It seems like a good idea but there’s no escape. You ought to look closely at whoever is suggesting entering such a box canyon (treaty) and who is benefiting from it. The real beneficiaries are probably not going to be all that obvious. However, one can be almost certain that in some way or other it relates to competition. If you are the weaker person, you seek to impose rules that reduce the advantage of the stronger. But when that is achieved, such as in the case of women’s rights or affirmative action, what then? Competition! Then you go for the “win”, pretend to still be a minority, choke the opposition while not being choked yourself. BLM, SJW and so on.

        Or as Saul Alinsky wrote, make the other guy live up to his rules! Of course, you might have to suggest those rules and trick him into making those rules his own.

  44. Hi Barry,

    I am wearing a jacket today. I was wearing only a T-shirt in summer. My observation tells me the sun warms the earth, not human activity.

    Thanks for Trump for starting the beginning of the end of the climate scare mongering by the Green movement.

  45. I just ordered a new copy of Eric Hoffer’s, “The True Believer” It should be of value in the months and years ahead. Let us hope that the wailing, gnashing of teeth and rending of garments by the true believers of the church of Climatology is limited to just that.

  46. Vladimir Putin’s advice to the world on the Trump’s decision to withdraw from the Paris accord

    “Don`t worry, be happy”.

  47. I welcome the beginning of the end of this unscientific scam. It is still a fight and will go on till weather and nature determines the observable result. So far nature and the real, real climate, not that propaganda one, has determined the scary predictions by the propagandists and shown them to be wanting to the point that climate models and adjustments had to be made..

    So thank you President Trump!

  48. The intention of a sustained political talking point is to win a debate. Since AGW theory is in fact a political talking point not science it’s going to get very difficult since the exit is clearly losing not winning. You replace talking points when you lose. Climate policy might exit exactly like this.

    The climate green wing might find out what it’s like being Hillary very soon. We love you but we want you to go away and never return to the forward Party machinery. One more national defeat in 2020 and the Democrats might not be a national Party at all. The Socialist wing wants out already.

    • The intention of a sustained political talking point is to win a debate.

      Really?

      It’s all just words then?

      No wonder the Left destroys economies whenever it gets power.

      We had foolishly assumed the point of politics was to win elections, implement policies and achieve real results!

      Thank you for putting us straight.

      • “We had foolishly assumed the point of politics was to win elections, implement policies and achieve real results!”

        That is approximately correct. The point was that politics is the WORDY part of this complete breakfast. After the politics comes the guns and force.

        If I had no power to compel you or anyone, politics would not exist. But if I can persuade my friends, and my neighbors, and my friends’ neighbors, that our town should require everyone to plant grass and nothing else, and then not let that grass be longer than 4 inches nor shorter than 3, and arrogate to ourselves the privilege of taking your money or your liberty if you fail, and so on, well then you have politics while these details are being discussed. But at the root of it is a competition; shall my demands on you supersede your demands on me?

  49. ‘but still refuse to consider the possibility they are wrong about global warming.’

    When you create a narrative you already KNOW you’re wrong – it’s really more of a case of trying to perpetrate the con and, of course, CYA.

  50. Truth, He said,” I came to bear witness to the truth”. There can be only one truth and consensus does not necessarily define it.

  51. IMHO Trump and his advisers have played this shrewdly. Dismantling the embedded and institutionalised AGW myth is like disarming a trip sensitive bomb. Cut too many wires too quickly and it will blow back in your face. He started by removing the economic disadvantages with ascertainable facts and figures relating to the US economy in a language that the average citizen could understand.
    At this time,to start dismantling the “science” of the AGW theory would be a unfavourable battleground as opponents would belittle him with voicifreous media support. You should only fight the battles you know you can win.
    I am sorry to mix metaphors but taking on the AGW myth is like Hercules fighting the Hydra. Cut off one head and two appear unless you cauterise the stump. So when the mayors of Pittsburgh and New York say they will comply, then it is they that have to ask their voters for money to send abroad and not the mythical Federal money tree.
    It will take time to dislodge the dogma of AGW and it will take an incisive and forensic questioner to demolish their arguments and assertions with questions along the lines of
    Has the arctic death spiral resulted in a ice free Arctic Ocean – No
    Has the number of severe tropical storms increased or decreased since 2000 – Decreased
    If CO 2 is a driver of climate change have temperatures increased in a correlating manner since 2000 – No

    President Trump may not be the most appropriate person to deliver these rebuttals but surely there must be a Benjiman Franklin type person who can continue the dismantling of this damaging dogma on the scientific basis. Willis is this your time ? :)

    • Agreed. By focussing on the deal and promising to negotiate a new one Trump has taken much of the heat out of the alarmist response. The twin issues of sovereignty and cash handouts are the key.

      For anybody on the gravy train to shout out that they want to reduce the sovereignty of the US people over their nation is to risk a blowback of immense proportions. If the US wants to commit economic suicide then that is a choice for that nation, but there is a vast different between wanting to commit suicide and being told by foreigners that you are the sacrifice they require.

      The cash is vital because in the end that is all that matters to the UN carpetbaggers. The more they scream about the cash the more obvious their real motivation becomes apparent. Imagine anybody on the gravy train shouting out that the US can do what it wants but just keep the money coming.

      It will take greater minds than those at the Grauniad to now further their corrupt faith.

      • Precisely. Trump wants the result. Not the argument.

        Anyone who runs business for profit knows winning arguments with customers and staff alienates them. What you want is some excuse to justify the action you are taking to achieve profit.

        Thats all climate change is anyway. So why not fight justificatory BS with justificatory BS?

    • I disagree. The court of public opinion is in session, and it’s important politically to Trump (see below). He needs to let his allies use his bully pulpit (a White House or GOP site defending his TREXIT) to defend what he’s done or he and his party will suffer.

      “Democrats see political opportunity in Trump’s decision to abandon Paris climate deal”
      By John Wagner, Abby Phillip, http://www.washingtonpost.comView June 2nd, 2019

      Trump, whose approval rating has hovered around 40 percent for most of his presidency, probably did not gain new converts with his decision, and Democrats now see an opportunity to further intensify the focus of their base in upcoming midterm elections. They also foresee the climate-change decision as a key part of their broader argument to college-educated swing voters who have been among Trump’s weakest supporters.

      “He’s unleashed a number of forces that I don’t think he understands that ultimately are going to work against him,” said Tad Devine, a longtime political strategist and former adviser to Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders’s presidential run. “People are interpreting this not as my house is going to be flooded tomorrow, but our federal government is being run by people who don’t care about science.”
      . . . . . . . . .
      For college-educated moderates, including some Republicans, the issue could become emblematic of the Trump administration’s disdain for science and the long-lasting consequences of his leadership.

      “It’ll affect Trump in that there are moderate Republicans who believe in science,” said Democratic pollster Anna Greenberg. “It has implications for the midterms if they’re not that excited about being involved in this mess.”

      Climate change alone has never been much of a motivator for the electorate, although younger voters typically name it as one of their top issues in polling. A recent Pew Research Center poll found that 38 percent of Americans said it was a top priority, compared with 76 percent who name terrorism and 73 percent who said the same of the economy.

      Yet climate change and the environment are issues that move political money in the Democratic world like little else. Major Democratic donors, such as financier and environmentalist Tom Steyer, who co-founded NextGen Climate, insist that Trump’s move is yet another provocation that will push younger people to become more engaged in politics.
      . . . . . . . . . . . . .

      The risk for Republicans in the near term remains that even small shifts in enthusiasm could make the difference in competitive congressional races.

      “All these things cumulatively spell real trouble for my party,” said Republican strategist John Weaver, who worked on Ohio Gov. John Kasich’s presidential bid. “It adds passion to the left, which brings us one step closer to Speaker [Nancy] Pelosi.”

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democrats-see-political-opportunity-in-trumps-decision-to-abandon-paris-climate-deal/2017/06/02/c05229da-47ae-11e7-a196-a1bb629f64cb_story.html?utm_term=.6c8b90c4bacd

  52. Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.

    Lovely. And “science denial”, as defined by Oreskes in The Guardian, includes people like James Hansen. These people are beyond funny. It is so much like sects of communists who were contesting on orthodoxy. Who could find progressives and regressives, who could find the missiles of peace, the unstoppable way forward to socialism of tomorrow… it was so stupid. And then, suddenly, all reds were green. And all KGB was FSB. No difference but name.

    • The one question to ask, just to remind you where we are, is:

      Which of the two regions, China or EU, was emitting more greenhouse gases per capita in 2015?

      People think China is still back there. It is not. It is the largest emitter and it’s per capita emissions are larger than EU’s. Now you may think whatever you want about Trump, but Trump is not gonna sink this ship by undoing pretty insignificant yet potentially economically devastating promises of Climate God, Nobelist, Barack Obama.

  53. Trump has performed the stellar service of lessening the economic impact of the AGW myth. As London247 correctly observes above, Trump based his move on the economic damage and unfairness to the US of the Paris accord. I hope he and his team can achieve the next step – dismantling the acceptance of the view that CO2 can cause harmful warming. The facts presented on this site and others have spread the understanding that CO2 is not a harmful pollutant. Hopefully, this understanding can now achieve wider distribution and acceptance.

    • The CO2 thing requires funding of actual science. That’s another thing Trump has already got right with the legislation already passed almost unanimously in the US on science priorities.

      It’s much easier to destroy a propaganda machine by reallocating funds away from it than it is by tackling it head on. Once the funds are gone the threadbare “science” will be far more easily consigned to the rubbish bin of history.

      • Forrest: Good point on cutting funding as critical in breaking the AGW proposition. But those cranking out AGW research (propaganda) may seek funding from gullible foundations and universities. Maybe Trump should appoint a blue-ribbon panel to investigate the truth value of the AGW “science”. Public shaming might help nudge things along. Heightened exposure of modifications of temperature data and accountability for those who participated would help. Few people are yet aware of how nonsensical the claim that CO2 can cause harmful warming is.

  54. Eric,

    “Why do Greens feel compelled to invent elaborate conspiracy theories to explain their failure to convert people to their cause?”

    I think it’s because this is a scam, and the scammers are generating such ideas to defend the scam . . and I think there is a gross overestimate in the minds of most people as to what science/scientists are able to actually know (see/observe), so the scam, and the defense work reasonably well.

    A good example is something like the widely held belief that the speed of light (or the rate of radioactive decay, which you asked me about once) must be constant throughout time and space . . as though some scientists actually measured it in distant times and places, which of course they didn’t. So, it’s not really known to be so, but few seem to me to grasp that it’s assumptive, not scientifically proven . . and people tend to forget that such limits on what scientists can actually know in the scientific sense even exist.

    • Frustrating isn’t it? There are just some words you can’t use. I kicked the trip wire earlier by using a “w” word rhyming with Kerr. As I understand it, WUWT does not entirely control its own destiny with the automatic moderation system.

      • it’s not even that the comments are in any conceivable way obscene .

        I think I am in permanent moderation elsewhere than this site for pointing out that one cannot even discuss female Labrador dogs of exceptionally low albedo online any more.

        Even allusions to anagrammatic Danish kings who tried to halt the tides is frowned upon.

        One is reduced to the depths of euphemism to placate these ‘gateways of Venus’

  55. “Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.”…let’s go and kick their ass out of the real world!

  56. “It is time to take that climate science denial industry seriously.” How about taking climate science seriously? You have no science. You have models that do not work. That are too complex. That there is no way of knowing if you have properly weighted the impact of every variable in your models. Did you include all include all possible variables (I understand the sun was not included since it was consider constant. No account was made for variation of energy due to sun spots which is probably the only variable that needs to be looked at- all else being insignificant)? Can you understand how many can view the whole anthropocentric climate change as bogus when the most significant source of heat on earth is discounted?

    • To John in Redding

      “You have models that do not work.”

      They are not climate models.

      To build a model you’d have to understand the climate change process very well.

      No one does.

      What are called “models” are actually personal opinions of the people who built them.

      There’s nothing like complexity and high level math to make a personal opinion sound “scientific”, and impress people.

      The presentation sells the prediction … and since the climate catastrophe is always said to be off in the future, beyond all our lifespans, how can it be proven wrong in our lifetime?

  57. I would like to see a survey re climate change from 2 different groups: those that have worked outdoors for a min of 25 years e.g. farmers, foresters, fisherman, vs pure urbanites.

    I commonly get the feeling that so many alarmists don’t really relate to what they are so passionate about. Most odd is that.

    There is also a 3rd category that I find the most disturbing: intellectual elites who have never known anything but a salary. Our capital city in NZ is full of them. They are so expert on how others should live their lives and have considerable influence, making deep inroads into recent legislation “for our own good”. They have even now succeeded in banning smoking in retirement homes. How sick is that? But, bad laws get ignored. That frightens the crap out of them.

    Another law, that all farmers must wear helmets while riding motor cycles on their own farm, is also being ignored right across the country. The Western world needs a whopping big wake up call. It has started, in a small way. Long may it continue.

    • “They have even now succeeded in banning smoking in retirement homes. How sick is that?”

      They don’t want to pay for the health care costs for those folks who are too weak willed to quit, What’s wrong with that?

      • Chris, in the UK the government earns approx £9 billion a year in tobacco duty yet the cost of smoking is approx £3 billion a year. Smokers are therefore subsidising the non smokers health care costs. Were all smokers to quit the government would have to raise income tax by a 10%. Obesity related issues now cost the NHS more than smoking. In addition to that, a smoker dies younger so doesn’t cost the NHS as much in long term care into old age compared to non smokers. One of the reasons the NHS is struggling (on top of mass immigration) is people living longer and costing the NHS a fortune in care costs (hence the uproar over tory plans to take the costs of that care out of your asset value at death). There is a fine balance between in-life costs to cover cancer treatments of smokers who die younger and long term care costs for those that live to much older age. The anti smoking lobby often don’t appreciate the facts.

      • mud4fun
        I have no idea if the numbers you quote are accurate or not, but the next logic step is to legalise all kind of drugs from ‘recreational’ to hard stuff and tax them extra heavily.

      • the next logic step is to legalise all kind of drugs from ‘recreational’ to hard stuff and tax them extra heavily.

        Of course. But where is the virtue signalling in that?

  58. Green Peace, Sierra Club, WWF et al have literally $billions in funding, much of it extorted from oil companies. Deniers usually quickly become unemployed. Many are retired scientists who are thus free to speak.

  59. This would be a good time to erase the federal budget provision for snow removal funds in northern U.S. states. The coming hard winter will emphasize the point.

  60. I say we should start getting serious about sources of powerful, low cost, clean, safe energy. It’s bound to be right around the corner– just think of how fast our technology is evolving. So instead of arguing over warming let’s get to work on bring these truly alternative sources to fruition. Like, for example, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dCzVUnnL00&feature=youtu.be (video lecture) or this http://brilliantlightpower.com/ (website.)

    That’d be a good way to put alarmist climate scientists out of work (with some luck.)

    • I’m still trying to figure out how she’s been ‘bullied’. I’d say damn near the only participant in that public idiocy was Kathy herself.
      Frankly, I think it’s another coordinated ‘create a victim’ campaign.

      • At the very least, she is the author of her own misfortune. Personally, I do not see how anyone considers what she did to be acceptable humour. There are some very sick people out there.

  61. After the high yesterday of President Trumps decision to pull out of Paris accord I was a bit disappointed to see the UAH May figure shows a big jump in warming (+0.43?). Gutted. Was hoping to see a downward trend to hammer a final nail into the global warming hysteria. At this rate it’ll drag on for years.

    • But look at the ENSO meter, it has, for the last few months, been positive, and for nearly 2 months at the + 0.5 mark. It is touch and go whether we will see back to back El Ninos. If we do this will again push temperatures up.

      We need to see a sustained and deep La Nina to bring temperatures back down again. I was hoping to see one develop in 2017 in time for the run up to AR6 as that would have been fun making the divergence between models and observation ever greater, and it is likely that there would have been more papers putting ever lower figures on climate sensitivity. Unfortunately, that does not appear particularly likely now.

      • Look, we constantly hammer the point that rising CO2 has no effect on global temps, and we are still coming out of the last Ice Age. Now is not the time to go wobbly on that point.

  62. Thank You Anthony, you must be very happy!

    If he had worked in the propaganda side he would have made millions, where he has worked tirelessly over the years to try and shed light on the Global Warming fraud.

  63. From a man who signed the Paris Accord:

    Putin refused to condemn the US president’s decision to withdraw the US from the Paris climate accord, making light of the issue and questioning whether the countries of the world were really “in a position to halt climate change”.

    “Somehow we here aren’t feeling that the temperature is really rising, but we should be thankful to President Trump. There was snow in Moscow today; [in St Petersburg], it’s rainy and cold – now we can blame all this on him and American imperialism,” Putin joked.

  64. Can it be since their entire climate change campaign is based on collusion and conspiracy, this is the only way to view any resistance to it?

  65. The Obama ‘Fundamental Transformation of America’ was mortally injured on June 1, 2017.
    God bless President Donald J. Trump, The United States of America, and all who love Her!

  66. “mud4fun
    I have no idea if the numbers you quote are accurate or not, but the next logic step is to legalise all kind of drugs from ‘recreational’ to hard stuff and tax them extra heavily.”

    @Vukcevic, no the next logical thing is to tax junk food. For years smokers have been paying 80% plus duty on fags in the name of taxing an unhealthy habit to cover the cost of their NHS care. As obesity now costs the NHS more than smoking it seems logical to tax obese people for their unhealthy habit. Start by putting 80% duty on a McDonalds or Fish&Chips and have branding banned and replaced with black packaging showing death warnings and pictures of heart disease. The general non-smoking public seemed happy enough to have that imposed on smokers when their habit was the biggest NHS expense yet seem unwilling to suffer the same fate on their own unhealthy habits now that obesity is the biggest killer.

    I’m a smoker if you hadn’t guessed :-) :-)

  67. Does anyone know where I can put money on the globe NOT warming as per IPCC projections or even much lower numbers? I think a graduated bet would pay off nicely if anyone is offering decent odds.

  68. C’mon folks. Let’s not swallow our own Kool-Aid. The notion that Trump pulling out of the Paris deal had much to do with the alarmists failing to be convincing with their “science” is nonsense. “Science” has little to do with the political decisions being made. In the political arena, very little is being decided based on science.

      • James, imagine what is needed to validate your choice:

        You wish us to assume a conclusion in advance of understanding the issue well enough to even know what the reasons are.

        How can problems be solved in such a manner?

        Claim: X=Y for unknown reasons.

        Someone points out by deduction that X is not equal to Y. You assert in reply that X=Y for unknown reasons, that it is still true and you will hold to the claim regardless of proofs.

        This is superstition. Superstition is well-defined as holding to that which has been proven scientifically to be untrue. CO2 from human activities is not going to create catastrophic global warming; there is too little and the governing mechanisms are too strong to be overcome.

        We have no need for climate bogeymen in order to clean up this planet, to be wise and united in our global endeavours, to overcome prejudices and to create a fair and just society. To do that in fear of a fabricated bogeyman will undermine the spirit of the whole enterprise. Justice and progress is not obtained by cunning and lies.

  69. What also surprises me is the fact that the temperature has only risen .5 degrees c in the last 100 years??!!! The sea levels are not rising, just ask the people in Tuvalu . That’s a South Pacific island. The climate changes naturally. We have no effect on it. Btw, hurricanes, tornadoes and other extreme weather is happening less than it used to.

  70. Dear Graham Readfearn, don’t worry, your fellow True Believers John Cook and Stephan Lewandowsky have figured out how to pre-innoculate us all from climate denialism. Report to them immediately for an update, and report back to us.

    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

  71. “Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”

    There is nothing weaker than an idea whose time is past, or never was.

  72. ” Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate science denial industry.”

    Methods : Independent , critical thinking blogs
    Tactics : Pursuit of truth
    Personnel : non-salaried, non-NSF funded , independent scientists & engineers
    Structure : De-centralized, detached from government
    Reach : Worldwide via the web

    So, what have you learned ? If you learned anything, you would be one of us. I hope you do learn (finally) and bring your lunacy to an end.

    • Structure: Diaspora of distributed independent human processors communicating via the Internet.

  73. A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

    Max Planck

  74. When the leftists are in a bad mood, they even dump their Sandinista friends and their friend in Syria, who runs the attack-dog shelter.

  75. Now is the time to learn about the methods, the tactics, the personnel, the structure and the reach of the global climate pseudo-science alarmism industry.

    Bring it on, a##holes!

  76. It is truly disgusting to see what the unquestioning adherence to the uninformed, lazy and one-sided pushing of climate crisis hysteria has reduced the once great newspaper that the Guardian was. Whatever your politics, that newspaper once had superb foreign news coverage and correspondents. I used to buy and read it nearly everyday for about thirty years. Today I wouldn’t cross the road to pick up a free copy if it came with a free coffee and bagel – it shames the once great editors and independent minded writers who used to work for it.
    What is inexcusable is that its current Guardian staff writers are either incapable of doing their homework to discover the harm that climate alarmism is doing to the world’s poor and disadvantaged or that they no longer care. I expect with some of their senior staffers, who surely can’t be that uninformed, it is sadly the later. Well if you are going to sell out you may as well choose to do so on an issue that will make you look virtuous and “right on” politically.
    Frankly I suspect that the Guardian’s loss of respect and readership is that many others have found its obscene support of eco-terrorism and climate colonialism as unacceptable as I have.

    The Guardian’s and UK broadcasting media’s continuing vilification of President Trump and his supporters and those who dare challenge the misspending of billions on a non-existing climate crisis which is stuffing money into the pockets of already over wealthy millionaires is unforgivable.
    I can only protest by never buying another copy. But I hope that people in the USA understand that many people in the UK are appalled by the treatment and abuse leveled at your President and the ordinary people who voted for him in the hope of a better future.

    • Yes, we no longer watch the BBC as it is so extremely biased to the left wing/liberal global warming/mass immigration mantra.

      We watch Sky news now. It is far less biased than BBC and as a bonus the presenters are generally better too. Been watching it for a few months now and my blood pressure has not risen anywhere near as much as when watching the BBC! They tend to always have representatives from both the right and left when discussing political issues.

      Of course Sky still go on about global warming and climate change without any real knowledge of facts and I had to laugh at their Paris Accord coverage when they failed to understand that China gave not agreed to reduce emissions until 2030 so their saying they still stand by the agreement is largely nonsensical.

      • Hasn’t China only agreed to review it’s position by 2030, I didn’t think that they had agreed to reduce emissions then IIRC.

        SteveT

  77. But what happens when ordinary people no longer have access to the evidence? Currently access is only via the Internet. Even Fox news is hedging, under left-moving management, and Fox has never devoted air time on this issue anyway. “Doubling down” fighting climate science “denialism” means the gloves come off. Free speech and freedom of information access will be the main targets, believe it.

  78. The Guardian quite often assembles fantasies from bits of this and bits of that and of course ignores any and all bits that in any way disturbs their confirmation bias.

    Speaking of confirmation bias, many studies have shown the social sciences are made up of scientists of which over 90% self-identify as left wing, with a smattering identifying as libertarian and a bare handful conservative. So it becomes especially humorous when climate science uses social sciences to “scientifically” prove consensus.

  79. Graham Readfearn is at the Guardian’s summit of climate alarmism along with Dana Nutti’, John Abrahams and Damian Carrington. They’re absolutely poisonous and no amount of logic, rationale or contrary evidence will suffice. Just point and laugh.

  80. The danger I see with a world government whose remit is to control ‘carbon’ emissions is that if anyone comes up with a new form cheap and plentiful zero-carbon energy, then like Galileo they will find themself under house arrest as an enemy of the State, and their work banned from publication. The continued existence of such a government will, after all, depend on energy being expensive and carbon-based, so -like the Church wanting to maintain that the Earth is at the center of everything- those in power will not want to see any change in that situation.

    In the end Galileo’s world-view prevailed anyway, and surprisingly it had little impact on Church attendances so the Pope need not have worried. With a world government based on energy control I think it would be a different situation though. Once the need to control CO2 emissions vanished, there would be calls for that government to be disbanded. \which those in power would fiercely resist.

    • Ian MacDonald writes: “In the end Galileo’s world-view prevailed anyway, and surprisingly it had little impact on Church attendances so the Pope need not have worried.”

      There is no “end” and the pope worries about many things. Galileo was unable to prove, using the science available in his day, that he was correct and all then-existing scientists and astronomers were wrong although he tended to proclaim it and thus made enemies.

      “When Galileo wrote the Dialogue on the Two World Systems, he used an argument the pope had offered, and placed it in the mouth of his character Simplicio. Galileo, perhaps inadvertently, made fun of the pope, a result that could only have disastrous consequences. Urban felt mocked and could not believe how his friend could disgrace him publicly. Galileo had mocked the very person he needed as a benefactor. He also alienated his long-time supporters, the Jesuits, with attacks on one of their astronomers. The result was the infamous trial, which is still heralded as the final separation of science and religion.”

      [https]://www.catholic.com/tract/the-galileo-controversy

      “Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move — it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.”

      From the wiki:

      Galileo writes: “My dear Kepler, I wish that we might laugh at the remarkable stupidity of the common herd. What do you have to say about the principal philosophers of this academy who are filled with the stubbornness of an asp and do not want to look at either the planets, the moon or the telescope, even though I have freely and deliberately offered them the opportunity a thousand times? ”

      [https]://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

      Being rude to opponents is hardly a modern invention.

  81. Believing that they are the smartest persons in any room is so core to the self identity of most leftists, that they will never be able to admit that they are wrong.
    About anything.

    • In what way do you differ? This comment section is a “room” and you make a grand pronouncement. As it happens, leftists often *are* smart, by usual measures, what it takes to admit to being wrong is *humility* after being presented with credible evidence of something more correct.

      But if that admission means you lose your job, it takes more than humility; it also takes courage and a particular (and uncommon) moral code. It might not even be “smart”.

  82. The reason why they don’t debate (but do love their denouncements) all boils down to cult philosophy that’s been poured down our collective throats, it goes by the name of post-modernism.

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