East European States Mount Revolt Against Paris Agreement

EU Climate Policy Threatens To Destroy What Is Left Of Europe’s Steel Industry

 

East European EU states are mounting a behind-the-scenes revolt against the Paris Agreement, blocking key measures needed to deliver the pledge that they signed up to 18 months ago.

Under the climate accord, Europe promised to shave 40% off its emissions by 2030, mostly by revising existing climate laws on renewables, energy efficiency and its flagship Emissions Trading System (ETS).

But documents seen by Climate Home show that Visegrad countries are trying to gut, block or water down all of these efforts, in a rearguard manoeuvre that mirrors president Donald Trump’s rollback of climate policy in Washington.

Energy efficiency is supposed to make up around half of Europe’s emissions reductions by 2030, but a Czech proposal could cut energy saving obligations from a headline 1.5% a year figure to just 0.35% in practice.

Below the radar, Poland has also launched a manoeuvre that may block the EU’s winter package in its entirety – particularly a planned limit on power plant emissions – if it is signed up to by a third of EU parliaments, or 10-13 states.

The EU’s various wings will eventually thrash out a compromise between the commission’s original proposal – which was calibrated to meet the Paris pledge – and the counter-proposals designed to weaken this.

The effect this could have on the EU’s overall emissions has raised concerns among those in Brussels who wish to see the EU maintain its leadership on climate.

“We cannot allow backward-looking east EU states to destroy the EU’s credibility on the Paris agreement,” said Claude Turmes, the European parliament’s lead negotiator on climate governance.

“A successful and ambitious energy transition is one of the few remaining positive stories for Europe. If we allow that to be drained by vested old interests from east Europe, our international credibility – and the last remaining trust of our citizens – will be smashed,” said Turmes.

On Thursday and Friday this week, the EU leadership will meet with Chinese prime minister Li Keqiang. Climate change is a top agenda item at the meeting. A Sino-European coalition on climate action has been mooted as a possible bulwark against the reversal in the US. […]

“It is clear that the east European countries are only thinking of cheap energy and nothing else,” one informed source said. “That applies to Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, all of them. The problem is that Germany is not taking a leadership role.”

Documents released by Greenpeace Energydesk on Sunday show the UK government has also been lobbying to weaken the energy efficiency target, despite its intention to leave the EU.

Poland’s far right government has been mired in sniping with the European commission since taking power in 2016. This year, it has already threatened to take the EU to court over its climate laws – and won concessions on its plans for subsidies to keep coal plants running when there is no demand.

Coal is seen as the “foundation” of Poland’s development by the ruling Law and Justice party, despite the thousands of Poles it sends to an early grave each year, and the unparalleled dangers it poses to the climate.

The EU’s preferred method of squeezing big emitters is carbon trading but here too, a Polish proposal taken up by the European parliament’s majority right wing blocks would drain the EU’s proposal of meaning.

A Polish memorandum, which Climate Home has obtained, proposes carrying over a glut of 907m worthless “hot air” carbon credits into the next market phase, depressing prices and reducing incentives to scale back CO2 emissions. […]

While Poland’s idea might allow the EU to meet its Paris obligations on paper, it would also open the door to surplus credits covering 550 million tonnes of carbon equivalent (Mtoe), according to a commission analysis obtained by Climate Home.

The same working paper says that a separate “early counting” proposal by Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia and Lithuania would increase the carbon allowance surplus by 690 Mtoe – triple the four countries’ combined 2014 emissions.

Poland also wants a huge increase in forestry offsets that would allow it to continue its coal-first energy model so long as it plants more trees.

Full post


EU Climate Policy Threatens To Destroy What Is Left Of Europe’s Steel Industry

Reuters, 29 May 2017

Steelmakers in Europe have written to EU leaders urging them not to burden the industry with extra carbon emissions costs they say would make them uncompetitive against foreign rivals and raise the risk of job losses and plant closures.

Image result for GWPF carbon tax

Draft reforms to the EU Emissions Trading System (ETS) post-2020, agreed in outline by the European Parliament in February, aimed to balance greater cuts in greenhouse gases with protection for energy-intensive industries.

Since then, negotiations between representatives of the European Parliament, governments and the European Commission have made the proposals tougher, the steel industry says.

Environmentalists say the law should not be watered down.

The CEOs of 76 steel makers, including Arcelor-Mittal , Germany’s Thyssenkrupp and Austria’s Voestalpine, say the reforms as they stand would add unmanageable costs and mean pollutants were produced by manufacturers in other regions.

“You can avoid burdening the sector with high costs that will constrict investment, or that will increase the risk of job losses and plant closures in the EU,” the CEOs say in an open letter, dated May 28, to EU heads of state and government.

Writing before more closed-door talks on Tuesday on the carbon market reforms, the CEOs say the higher costs for emitting carbon dioxide would favour imports.

“In its current form, the EU ETS favours steel imports from third country competitors that do not have such costs and which have a far higher carbon footprint than steel made in the EU,” the letter says.

Full story

h/t to The GWPF

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Bloke down the pub

So EU countries that have cold winters don’t want to pay more for energy. Who’da thought it.

Kurt in Switzerland

The Baltics wouldn’t survive a single winter without Russian gas. The “leaders” in the EU know this, yet they’re tight-lipped. Mustn’t contradict the Climate Narrative.

Bryan A

Sounds like someone is finally starting to figure out that, at least WRT energy intensive manufacturing, low density Green Energy (AKA Solar and Wind) is simply not Cost Competative with high density Carbon Energy especially when it comes to empowering an economy

Greg

Europe promised to shave 40% off its emissions by 2030

40% is not a “shave” it is an amputation.

Walter Sobchak

Which is why Moscow is financing “environmentalism” and global warmunism.

Nodak

With fracking they could.
Poles will live in 50 degree homes if it means being able to give the Russians the finger.
Right now they can’t because without Russian gas they are in homes that are -10 degrees.

halken

It’s sheer stupidity. If they build nukes, energy would cost the same as now while also emitting no co2, satisfying the green blob.

AndyG55

” satisfying the green blob”
Which in itself is a pretty stupid thing to try to do.
Just makes them stronger.
Blood-sucking vampires always want more blood.
Better just to drive the stake, right now.

MangoChutney

@Curious George
We are already heading for WWIII.
Within 10 years the world will once again become a killing field, only this one will be much, much worse. Putin, Daesh, Kim Jong Un, aggressive Chinese expansion, the Middle East mess, the inevitable break up of the EU.
The signs are already there.

Curious George

Driving forces behind the Paris Agreement are exactly the countries behind the Munich Agreement of 1938. That one led directly to World War II.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

MangoChutney

@Curious George
We are already heading for WWIII.
Within 10 years the world will once again become a killing field, only this one will be much, much worse. Putin, Daesh, Kim Jong Un, aggressive Chinese expansion, the Middle East mess, the inevitable break up of the EU.
The signs are already there.

Convict en Australie

The EU is looking more and more like the latter years of the Roman Empire. This time however it is not the reality of running a huge empire and having to outsource its military rather having already effectively outsourced its military (to the US) , washing its hands of such grubby concerns, it has lived in a fantasy world like some teenage brat on and endless shopping spree at the mall.
You know kid, you are a self indulgent little shit. End of story.

Excuse me,why didn’t these”Morons”figure out that this would happen?China and India are the big winners here,because they don’t have to do any of this and so will reap the rewards.they all deserve what they get for being so STUPID.

Chimp

Looks as if more rogue states are joining the herd led by the Trumpeting rogue bull elephant.

rocketscientist

Hmm…”we need to pass this thing to find out what’s in it.” Where have we heard that before….
IMHO the rank and file is just now finished scanning the “Paris Accord” and have found it lacking, or that they are the virgins to be sacrificed. Expect the retreat call to grow even louder.

Bryan A

Sounds like thate is a Star Wars Rogue One joke in there someplace…Oh Josh??

joelobryan

The irony is the east Europeans tasted communism and rejected it.
Now Germany is run by a former East German educated Manchurian cand. (Merkel, Leipzig U, 1973-78) and is keeping the EU on the path to socialism.
As I’ve said before (and others have too):
Climate Change is simply the Left’s Trojan Horse concealing their socialist political agenda.

Old England

and the EU is the marxist-green attempt to recreate the USSR – not for nothing do so many europeans refer to it as the EUSSR.

Chimp

How could any self-respecting people agree to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats, with no accountability. Any people giving its consent so to be governed are no longer freedom-loving, but content to be slaves.
Good on England and Wales, less London, for voting for sovereignty. As previously have Norway and Switzerland.

Rhoda R

This reply is to Chip: I don’t think that many nations actually did hold a referendum to join the EU, England certainly did not. It seems to have been an initiative of the ruling class mostly. At first the EU was a trading partnership that lowered barriers to trade between European nations – the classic camel’s nose under the tent approach. Later countries, like Ireland, who did hold referendums couldn’t get approval to join the EU on first pass or even second pass. They just kept proposing the referendum until they got the answer they wanted.

Chimp

Rhoda,
In the countries without referenda, parliaments voted on membership. I lived in the UK during its 1975 referendum on the EEC, to confirm the vote of Parliament in 1973. Labour had promised a referendum during the 1974 election campaign. Over 67% of voters approved joining the EEC, but the result would have been different had they known what a monstrosity the EU would become.

Gerry, Engliand

The people were lied to even in 1975 to ensure the referendum was won. Amazingly even now there are those who still don’t get that it is a superstate project, or that it always was but had to be disguised to get it started.

Auto

Chimp
May 30, 2017 at 12:17 pm
For sure. Plus plus plus.
The Traitor Heath led us down a garden path.
The voices against – Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Enoch Powell (How prescient) – were regarded as firmly on the fruitcake side of the ledger.
Well, certainly ‘Foot and Benn, Foot and Benn, Power Plot Men’!!
I still remember Bill and Ben – Flower Pot Men!
That dates me. For sure.
Gerry, Engliand (your spelling):
May 30, 2017 at 2:51 pm
Too right we were lied to.
As at last year’s referendum – sky would fall; plagues of locusts, frogs, falling life expectancy, blood waters, etc.
Plainly it is a (quasi-)Maoist construct sought by the ‘believers’.
Like the watermelons, Citrullus, seeking a human population, globally, of 500-750 million.
Rendering ~ 90% of us fit for – ah – the slide into outer darkness.
Starvation; freezing to death; worked to death to support our overlords; perhaps even being used in our elite’s form of Roman Gladiatorial Games [at a stretch, accepted . . . . . but look at the season for Premiership Rugby come 2018-19!!].
But we have to go, don’cha know?!?
Auto
Here for the duration.

Chimp

Auto May 30, 2017 at 3:33 pm
It wasn’t just Heath. The timing of Parliament’s vote in 1973 was because de Gaulle died in 1970. Both Tory and Labour governments had applied for membership in the EEC since 1961, but were always blocked by de Gaulle.
The UK would have joined the EEC in 1961 but for French pride and fear of the Anglo-Saxon menace.
As you note, both nationalists and socialists opposed Britain’s entry into the EEC.

EricHa

Everyone here loves graphs. Here is one of UK contributions. Look what it was in 1975
http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/UK-payments-to-EU-budget-since-1973.png
for the referendum on staying in. Look at the unprecedented warming increasing contributions just after.

Tom in Florida

“If we allow that to be drained by vested old interests from east Europe, our international credibility – and the last remaining trust of our citizens – will be smashed,” said Turmes.”
Methinks that ship has already sailed pal.

Old England

The so-called vested interests in Eastern Europe are Governments and politicians who are more concerned about jobs, industries, manufacturing and their nations’ economies – in short their peoples’ lives and futures – than about the smoke and mirrors illusion of ‘climate change’.
It has been the destruction of economies and industry across the southern european nations by German dictated EU economic policies which has led to 40% and even 50% unemployment amongst young people in those nations (btw to the financial benefit of Germany, France and the Benelux countries). That and the massive, uncontrolled immigration championed and created by Germany are what have led to the massive loss of confidence in the EU.
The unelected and unaccountable Eurocracy are so out of touch with the reality of people’s lives that only they could believe that the destruction of jobs, industries and peoples’ futures has not been caused by themselves and thus the lack of trust in the EU is their own doing..

Sweet Old Bob

Looks like reality is starting to bite the green dream …..

Henning Nielsen

It’s a big green apple, centered on the Big Apple, and right in the middle of that, its rotten core at 405 East 42 Street.

Auto

Henning,
Help me.
I am not terrifically au fait with NYC geography.
Is that the M&Ms store?
Or the local crack house?
WWF?
The NYC Branch of CO2 for a Better Farm?
Help me.
Thanks
Auto

markl

Which makes you wonder why we would continue being the major supporter of an organization that openly calls for an end to our economic and government systems.

Latitude

…and there goes the EU
They can’t afford themselves without our money

john harmsworth

None of us in the West can afford ourselves without borrowed money!

Latitude

Doesn’t matter…they are spending it the same
The EU is going to end up France and Germany…and the few countries they have to bail out
…right before it ends

Focus

You speak great pride, but you are in error

Auto

Focus,
Thanks.
Who is it that “speak great pride, but you are in error”
Latitude?
Sweet Old Bob?
The author of the leading piece?
Help me. Please.
You may very well be right, but it would help me [poor bum boatie that I am] if you could be more directional.
Sorry if this looks critical – I am really seeking information.
Thanks.
Auto

Kurt in Switzerland

As well they should. For the Paris “targets” are arbitrary reductions conjured up by activists, without a clue as to what the unexpected consequences would be.

Janice Moore

Hear hear, Kurt in Switzerland!
And in honor of a Swiss hero whose bold stand won the day for freedom against a united European power:
Death is not required, but, taking a bold stand is. Here is to the Eastern bloc!
“Make way for Liberty”
James Montgomery (1771–1854)
[Battle of Sempach, fourteenth century]
“MAKE way for Liberty!”—he cried;
Made way for Liberty, and died!
In arms the Austrian phalanx stood,
A living wall, a human wood!
A wall, where every conscious stone 5
Seemed to its kindred thousands grown;
A rampart all assaults to bear,
Till time to dust their frames should wear;
A wood like that enchanted grove
In which with fiends Rinaldo strove, 10
Where every silent tree possessed
A spirit prisoned in its breast,
Which the first stroke of coming strife
Would startle into hideous life:
So dense, so still, the Austrians stood, 15
A living wall, a human wood!
Impregnable their front appears,
All horrent with projected spears,
Whose polished points before them shine,
From flank to flank, one brilliant line, 20
Bright as the breakers’ splendors run
Along the billows to the sun.
Opposed to these, a hovering band
Contended for their native land:
Peasants, whose new-found strength had broke 25
From manly necks the ignoble yoke,
And forged their fetters into swords,
On equal terms to fight their lords,

And what insurgent rage had gained
In many a mortal fray maintained: 30
Marshalled once more at Freedom’s call,
They came to conquer or to fall,

Where he who conquered, he who fell,
Was deemed a dead, or living, Tell!
Such virtues had that patriot breathed, 35
So to the soil his soul bequeathed,
That wheresoe’er his arrows flew
Heroes in his own likeness grew,
And warriors sprang from every sod
Which his awakening footstep trod. 40
And now the work of life and death
Hung on the passing of a breath;
The fire of conflict burned within,
The battle trembled to begin:
Yet, while the Austrians held their ground, 45
Point for attack was nowhere found;
Where’er the impatient Switzers gazed,
The unbroken line of lances blazed:
That line ’t were suicide to meet,
And perish at their tyrants’ feet,— 50
How could they rest within their graves,
And leave their homes the homes of slaves?
Would they not feel their children tread
With clanging chains above their head?

It must not be: this day, this hour, 55
Annihilates the oppressor’s power;
All Switzerland is in the field,
She will not fly, she cannot yield,—
She must not fall; her better fate
Here gives her an immortal date. 60
Few were the numbers she could boast;
But every freeman was a host,
And felt as though himself were he
On whose sole arm hung victory.
It did depend on one indeed; 65
Behold him,—Arnold Winkelried!
There sounds not to the trump of fame
The echo of a nobler name.
Unmarked he stood amid the throng,
In rumination deep and long, 70
Till you might see, with sudden grace,
The very thought come o’er his face,
And by the motion of his form
Anticipate the bursting storm,
And by the uplifting of his brow 75
Tell where the bolt would strike, and how.
But ’t was no sooner thought than done,
The field was in a moment won:—
“Make way for Liberty!” he cried,
Then ran, with arms extended wide, 80
As if his dearest friend to clasp;
Ten spears he swept within his grasp.
“Make way for Liberty!” he cried;
Their keen points met from side to side;
He bowed amongst them like a tree, 85
And thus made way for Liberty.
Swift to the breach his comrades fly;
“Make way for Liberty!” they cry
,
And through the Austrian phalanx dart,
As rushed the spears through Arnold’s heart; 90
While, instantaneous as his fall,
Rout, ruin, panic, scattered all:
An earthquake could not overthrow
A city with a surer blow.
Thus Switzerland again was free; 95
Thus Death made way for Liberty!
*
*
*
As AJE so fittingly wrote below:
Alea jacta est!
And, musica!
Wilhelm Tell Overture (Rossini)

(youtube — Go to 8:26 for the exciting part 🙂 )
Und!
Freiheit!
The Celebration of Freedom — Leonard Bernstein conducts in Berlin,
December 25, 1989
Beethoven’s 9th Symphony

(youtube — the chorus used “Freiheit!” (Freedom!) instead of “Freude” (Joy) in this arrangement)
***********************************
Just as our U.S. WWII veterans did not fight so that a German Chancellor could tell the United States of America how to run its economy,
so, too,
those from behind the Iron Curtain did not endure and finally break free of the Socialists
only to be tossed back into the dungeon of energy poverty.
Freiheit!

Janice Moore

AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!
No editing, so! Here is the CORRECT VIDEO (mistakenly pasted duplicate link above for first video).
Wilhelm Tell Overture — Rossini

(youtube)

Curious George

Janice, good but a little long.

Kurt in Switzerland

Thanks, Janice.
The town square in Stans (capital of Nidwalden, bordering Luzern, where Sempach is located) has a statue of Winkelried taking the enemy spears.
But the enemy was the Habsburger, the feudal family which didn’t mix well with the independence-minded Swiss folk. The term Austrian (Österreicher) refers to lands further to the East which the Habsburger also acquired. They have some connection with Bavarian nobility. They were tossed out of Helvetia (Switzerland) after many battles, Sempach being only one.
Modern Winkelrieds are unfortunately few and far between these days.

Graham

No, not “a bit long”, Janice, when the content is so powerful and exhilarating!
“How could they rest within their graves,
And leave their homes the homes of slaves?
Would they not feel their children tread
With clanging chains above their head?”
There is a sense of déjàvue.

Janice Moore

Thanks, Curious George — I was hoping the bolding would help out with that….
You’re welcome, Kurt. Yes, the poem is not a direct parallel by any means. I just so much admire that Swiss hero, though (I get tears in my eyes thinking of him — love is the strongest force in the world…), that I had to use it.
Thank you, so much, for that, Graham! 🙂

Chimp

I agree with majority of historians, who are convinced that “Arnold von Winkelried” is a legendary, rather than historical, figure.
My great grandmother was from Lucerne.

Janice:
perfect in many ways!

Carbon BIgfoot

Janice Moore—-William Tell was NOT an ARCHER he was a CROSSBOW MAN. The picture portrayed is not accurate and I’m sure that was not your intention. Being a Competitive ARCHER and Hunter for over 50 years I always try to right this misunderstanding. I did a paper and demonstration in college of the difference. I think it was in Public Speaking and a got an “A” in the class. The good old days when life was much simpler and honorable.
[The mods wonder if your collegiate demonstration would have been more effective if the apples were firmly placed atop the college professor’s heads before your longbow and crossbow shots. .mod]

Chimp

However Tell is also probably a legend, as with his fellow freedom-fighter Winkelried.
The original version of his story came from Denmark, and was an archer, not a crossbowman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palnatoke
But they represent real, flesh and blood heroes of the Swiss fight for independence.
From the Sempach Battle Chapel, a frequently updated painting based upon a 15th century original, before the legend of Winkelreid:comment image

Non Nomen

I do recommend Franz Liszt “Préludes” instead, because the end of the Paris Climate Acord is just a prelude to coming things. Most impressive, especially from 14:20 onwards.

Tom Halla

The Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, and Hungarians probably have living experience with True Believers, and do not want to be ruled by another batch.

Vaclav Klaus, former president of the Czech Republic, wrote the book Blue Planet in Green Chains in 2007. Precisely the analogy he used. His book inspired me to coin the terms Warmunism and Warmunist in ebook Blowing Smoke.

Michael darby

“to coin the terms Warmunism and Warmunist.. ”

Amazon.com says the publication date of “Blowing Smoke” is: October 15, 2014

The term was first “coined” April 11, 2013 by Daniel Greenfield: http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/185441/lefts-war-science-daniel-greenfield#.UWrDHk9CcNo.twitter

Independent invention. I had zero knowledge of Greenfield until today.

Latitude

Hungary threw up a double wall….almost over night

Chimp

Western civilization was thus saved by Slovenia and Hungary, since no refugees would risk the Ukraine.
Shades of Vienna in 1683, when Poland-Lithuania saved Christendom. Ironic, since Lithuania was the last pagan European kingdom to be Christianized, by the sword, wielded by the Teutonic Knights and volunteer Crusaders from western Europe, like the future English King Henry IV.

PaulH

Who would have imagined that Poland wouldn’t want to do what the Germans tell them to do? It’s always worked out so well for the Poles in the past.
/snark

Steve T

PaulH
May 30, 2017 at 2:00 pm
Who would have imagined that Poland wouldn’t want to do what the Germans tell them to do? It’s always worked out so well for the Poles in the past.
/snark

Just a reminder from Top Gear 🙂
https://youtu.be/kKTXK8YiCzk (40 seconds – but worth it)
SteveT

Focus

Yes it’s true

Resourceguy

“Behind the scenes” are the key words here because the Paris Agreement makes OPEC member honesty look good by comparison.

JEM

It makes a Mafioso gathering of the families look honest by comparison.

JEM

Yeah, Lignite Angela leads the West.

Hans-Georg

I will do “fremdschämen” for the lignite angela, the worlds best leader evah…… //double-sarc.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=angela+mit+der+raute&id=487B0992D927E4C913A3B300D4F499CDCD30BA8C&FORM=IQFRBA

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7

No matter what the EU does, the world will continue to make an increasing amount of steel every year. IN 2016 the world produced 1.629 billion metric tons of it; with China accounting for 808.4 billion metric tons (a little under half of it).
Steel is the single most useful material human civilization has developed; for most uses there is nothing to replace it which is nearly as good or affordable. Every ton of steel which is not made in Europe or the US will be made in China or India instead, unless you make it illegal to buy steel made elsewhere.
If the goal is fighting “climate change”, that proposal will soon follow. If the goal instead is to cripple Western industrialized economies and transfer wealth to developing nations, you won’t hear a whisper.

Chimp

After 16 BC, when Rome annexed Norica, its military-grade steel came from what is now Austria, Moravia (eastern Czech Republic) and Slovakia.

Curious George

Link, please.

Chimp

One of many references on-line to the high-quality steel of Noricum:
http://www.unrv.com/provinces/noricum.php
Iron ore in the region naturally contained the right mix of alloyed elements, and blacksmiths there used techniques with increased carbon content.
Ovid mentions the hardness of Noric steel in his Metamorphoses (14.712).

Chimp

The sources for this Wiki entry are books rather than clickable links to on-line papers, but no reason to doubt its veracity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum#Steel_for_Roman_weaponry

Curious George

Thanks. Modern countries are Austria and Slovenia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noric_steel

Chimp

Noricum also imported iron ore from what is now Moravia and Slovakia, parts of which were also at times included in the province, which was later subdivided. Neighboring Pannonia included present-day western Hungary, eastern Austria, northern Croatia, north-western Serbia, northern Slovenia, western Slovakia and northern Bosnia and Herzegovina.
At various times, Rome occupied bits of the Left Bank of the Danube to defend against barbarian invasion.

AleaJactaEst

it has started.
As Julius Caesar would say “alea jacta est”

Chimp

comment image

AleaJactaEst

you win the Internet.
For an extra lollipop, name the family of publications I quoted from….

Chimp

Both Suetonius and Plutarch claim that Big Julie made the remark when crossing the Rubicon in 49 BC. The former reports it in Latin, while the latter says Greek, quoting Caesar’s favorite comedy-writer Menander’s original.
Caesar’s last words to Brutus were also in Greek.

Michael Lemaire

Ceasar’s Gallic wars?

Michael Lemaire

Chimp: Julius, like all Roman upper class, normally spoke greek…

AleaJactaEst

nothing so high brow…..
http://asterixonline.info/wp-content/uploads/covers/10.jpg
required reading for a 12 year old learning Latin.

Chimp

Michael Lemaire May 30, 2017 at 10:39 am
Yes, I know, just as 18th century Russian upper classes spoke French.
But that fact isn’t reflected in popular literature, to include Shakespeare, who, after all, had little Latin and less Greek.
Roman legions in the East used Greek rather than Latin. Pontius Pilate would have spoken to Jesus in Greek, presumably with an Aramaic translator. Naturally both Caesar and Anthony talked to Cleopatra in her native Greek, although she also spoke Latin.

Michael Lemaire

lol!! You don’t have to be learning Latin to read Asterix!! Their sales wouldn’t be that high!!

Chimp

AleaJactaEst May 30, 2017 at 10:42 am
I must admit to never having read Asterix, in either French or translation. Asterix probably wouldn’t approve of his cartoon being written in a dialect of Vulgar Latin, however influenced by Gallic.

Michael Lemaire

… and Asterix has been translated in many, many languages, including Latin

Chimp

To be closest to Asterix’ language, Irish or Scottish Gaelic would probably serve best, although maybe Welsh or Breton.

AleaJactaEst

and where on God’s sweet earth would you be able to hold social intercourse on slap bang up to date grave world matters spiced with classical references ranging from how posh Romans spoke Greek to Asterix the Gaul.
Only here on WUWT.
MAGA

Michael Lemaire

Thanks Chimp! I appreciate that! I wasn’t aware. I’ll follow it up in a few hours… I am in a time zone where it’s midnight right now. Of course this is why we are on WUWT: where science isn’t settled…

Chimp

Chimp May 30, 2017 at 10:50 am
French of course is also influenced by Germanic languages as well as Gallic.
I thought it was amusing to watch “Gladiator” with my South American wife in Spanish, until it hit me that the dubbed voices were in a dialect of Vulgar Latin, as spoken by Legio XX and altered by Basque, Visigothic and Arabic, inter alia.
Gascon, the dialect of Occitan spoken by in SW France, as by Bernadette of Lourdes, like Spanish, substitutes initial silent H for F. Presumably its Basque substrate accounts for this shared, derived trait (as we say in biology).

TA

I’m impressed again with your knowledge, Chimp. Thank you and AleaJactaEst, and Michael Lemaire for an entertaining conversation about some interesting subjects.

Chimp

We’ll be here all week folks, so come back, ya’ll hear?
Let us entertain you!

EricHa

According to QI in 1880 80% of French people couldn’t speak to each other in French

Zut alors and sacre bleu

Chimp

Eric,
Because of conscription and public schooling, many non-native speakers of standard French could get by in it. And many of the French dialects, as opposed to different languages, were mutually intelligible, although sometimes with difficulty.
Occitan has its own dialects, the most outre of which is Bernadette’s Gascon. She wasn’t stupid. She just didn’t do well in school because her native language wasn’t French. Some linguists consider Catalan a dialect of Occitan, others its own language, but it’s largely mutually intelligible with Occitan. All its dialects have continued plummeting in the past four decades, as the old die off and the young don’t learn them.
The name comes from Languedoc (also a region and dialect), as opposed to the Languedoi, from the Occitan and French words for “yes”.
In 1880, France had already lost Alsace-Lorraine to Germany, or the share of fluent French speakers would have been even lower.

Gary Pearse

Chimp 18th Century Russian upper classes were not the only Russians to speak French. There are a goodly percentage of common French words in Russian: tpotyar (trottoir – sidewalk), кошмар (cauchemar – nightmare), etc. etc. I once heard an entire ballad sung in Russian using only French contributions to the language. Here are a few more that are familiar:
avant-garde – аванга́рд (avant-garde)
bagage – бага́ж (baggage)
café – каф́е (a café, not coffee; read: каф́э)
chance – шанс (chance)
chanson – шансон (org. song, a music style, see: Russian chanson)
costume – костюм (costume, suit)
couchette – куше́тка (couch)
dame – да́ма (lady)
ensemble – анса́мбль (meaning “a band”, not “together”)
équipage – экипаж (crew)
écran – экран (screen)
étage – этаж (floor on a building)
garage – гара́ж (garage)
meuble – ме́бель (furniture)
mirage – мира́ж (mirage)
plage – пляж (beach)
restaurant – рестора́н (restaurant)
sac voyage – саквояж (valise)
voyage – вояж (tour, journey)
French borrowed “bistro” from Russian (быстро which means ‘quick’, ‘fast’) possibly in allusion to its fast food?

Gary Pearse

Wow, you deplorables are more classical than one from the other side would have ‘previously thought’.

Chimp

Gary,
The French words entered Russian via the aristocracy. Russian Empress Great Catherine was a German princess who spoke French at her court.
“Bistro” allegedly entered the French language when Russian officers demanded rapid service at Parisian cafes after occupying the city after the defeat of Napoleon.

Griff

Gary, the Russian word for station allegedly derives from Vauxhall station in south London…
Apparently a Russian delegation was taken to see it and misunderstood the name of the station as the English for station. (A nice story, anyway!)

Michael Lemaire

Chimp: absolutely right! Except that no reference to Poncius Pilate is found anywhere (except in the New Testament, of course)… Did he exist? Did he have another name? … way off topic, but fun anyway! Cheers!

Chimp

Pontius Pilate did exist. Besides the New Testament and other Christian works not included in the canon thereof, sources for his life include the inscription known as the “Pilate Stone”, which confirms his historicity and title as “prefect”, and mentions by Tacitus, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus.

Janice Moore

FROM: Josephus and Tacitus
TO: Michael Lemaire
RE: tu 10:53am
Nos oro veniam dabis! (We beg your pardon!)

Janice Moore

And I beg your pardon, Chimp — I was writing that while you posted yours (took me awhile to get the Latin right! 🙂 )

Chimp

Janice,
Nos obsecro te veniae.
Με συγχωρείτε.
Pilate Stone:comment image

Bryan A

That first word, in the image, looks like “Imperieum”
which according to the EU’s actions should be spelled ImperiEUm

Chimp

Bryan,
Funny. Thanks for dragging us back on topic. The EU could be considered the Fourth Reich.
As reconstructed, the broken inscription reads:
“To the Divine Augusti [this] Tiberieum
…Pontius Pilate
…prefect of Judea
…has dedicated [this]”.
A Tiberieum was a temple dedicated to Emperor Tiberius. The “Divine Augusti” were Caesar Augustus and his wife Livia, mother of Tiberius.

markl

Now that the true cost of saving the world is coming to light you’d think more effort would be directed at CO2 as a bogeyman. It’s obvious to all that pushing the fossil fuel usage to other parts of the globe saves no CO2 emissions and nations are questioning why they must be the victims in this charade.

craig

“It is clear that the east European countries are only thinking of cheap energy and nothing else,” one informed source said.”
Really? Who would’ve thought that cheap energy is the preferred option these days?

Focus

I am currently using natural gas to heat my home but want to make a fireplace with a water-jacketed mantle, something that would have run out of Russian gas.

BallBounces

The EU nations are like the all-for-one and one-for-all characters at the car wreck in It’s A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World. “There’s enough for you, and you, and you, and you…” just before they all carve off to every man for himself. Climate spoils — it’s under the big W, I tell ya!

Gary Pearse

The economy is an organic beast. If you kill off major industries like steel, aluminum, petrochemicals, mining… increasing imports isn’t the worst of it. The loss of jobs reduces the overall demand for all such raw marterials. The unemployed buy less of manufactures using these materials and less of other items they could afford before no matter what they are made of. No new car, eating out, travel, clothing, furniture… shopping volume drops…
The often spouted economic ‘multiplier effect’ of economic activity becomes the never uttered ‘divisor effect’.

commieBob

Poland is a net beneficiary of the EU. It gives the EU about a quarter as much as it gets. It refuses to take even a single refugee. link The most notorious driver in Ireland comes from Poland, Prawo Jazdy.
Those Poles just aren’t team players.

Chimp

Hilarious.

commieBob

Not only that but they have a different word for everything. link 😉

Resourceguy

-1

mikewaite

They have obviously changed then since the days when polish airmen achieved the greatest kill rate in the Battle of Britain , and captured the Enigma machine that helped win WW2. In the National Site of Remembrance in Lichfield there is a large and moving monument to the men and women who gave their lives to help the British War effort. We were glad to have them “on our team” then.
Perhaps it is the game that has changed , now it is not “how to defeat tyranny and evil” but “how to make the richest men in the world even richer”. A lot of us are not willing to take part in that game CommieBob.

Moderately Cross of East Anglia

You are quite right in your reminding commiebob about the part the Poles and Czechs played in fighting the Nazi tyranny and the people haven’t changed. They are merely sensible enough to recognize a new tyranny when they see one, especially when it is so stunningly hypocritical and attempts to stifle their economic development and use of their own natural resources. Germany claims leadership in the big green world, dumps its goods all over Europe and constrains the growth of its neighbors while reopening brown coal mines.
Worldwide big green aims to halt lifting the poor out of poverty. And while taking in refugees in danger is a noble cause, sucking in vast numbers of people with skills desperately needed to help the development of their own nations is more problematic.

Auto

mikewaite
Agreed.
There is a very moving memorial by the Great Western Road, the A40, into London, by the Northolt aerodrome, at the A4180 (West End Road) crossroads.
Auto, delighted to acknowledge the Polish contribution to the Battle of Britain, and the Second World War in general; I sit on a ‘Polish Island’ at work, with Joanna, Natalia, and Tomasz, and appreciate my (late) father’s stories about the Poles’ daring.

Patrick MJD

“mikewaite May 30, 2017 at 12:21 pm”
Yes, the Polish did capture the 3 rotor Enigma machine and broke its codes, but when the 4 rotor machine was developed and captured, it was Turing who broke its codes.

Roger Knights

For $4 you can get a Kindle version of The Forgotten Few: The Polish air force in World-War 2 at https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Few-Polish-Force-Second-ebook/dp/B00O9VW8UG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496195739&sr=8-1&keywords=forgotten+few

Focus

The European Union is led by a group of blind people to the edge of the cliff. This is a Polish look at the taking reality.

Focus

In the near future there will be no team players, European Union will be in disarray

Auto

Focus
Ever the optimist.
Auto
Mods – a little bit /sarc.
But I cannot predict the future . . . .

Gary Pearse

Commiebob. The poles will be giving a lot more when coal gets popular again with the crescendo of chattering teeth.

Gary Pearse

oops ‘Poles’

J Mac

How ’bout that?!!
A little leadership is exhibited by the USA at the Taormina G7 meeting and other countries are emboldened to follow suite.

Trudy

Thank goodness.

Terry Warner

Over the past 20-30 years much of Western Europe, particularly the UK, has effectively exported emissions to China and India rather than fundamentally changing consumer behaviours. The result is a massive trade deficit in manufactured goods – and eastern Europe with less economic clout and resilience than the west can’t afford it..
India and China will not sign up to any deal which really constrains their ability to maintain economic growth and employment.
So the Paris agree was and is a fudge – define your own targets and timetable with no penalties for non-compliance. A complete waste of time designed to create the illusion of near unanimity.

willhaas

The reality is that the climate change we are experiencing today is caused by the sun and the oceans over which Mankind have no control. Since the Paris Climate Agreement will have no effect on the sun or the oceans, the agreemnet will have no effect on climate. There is no real evidence that CO2 has any effect on climate and plenty of scientific reasoning to support the idea that the climate sensivity of CO2 is zero.

john harmsworth

We’re not experiencing any change except some minor cooling over a short period. 18 years without warming! It’s all smoke and adjusted temperatures. The most atrocious excuse for science that I’ve ever seen in my life. A disgusting example of human ambition and deception and proof that politics corrupts everything it touches.

Focus

You are absolutely right

TinyCO2

It’s funny how easy it is for ‘we’ to sign up for impossible standards but how hard it is when ‘I’ have to pay for it in either money or hardship. Who’d’a thunk it?
It really is time the elites stop trying to live out their fantasies using the plebs as their test subjects or there really will be a revoluton and Brexit and Trump will seem like the good times.

Bruce Cobb

Oh noes! More rogue nations!. Pretty soon there’ll be a parcel of rogues.

AleaJactaEst

isn’t the collective noun of rogues “a deplorable” ?

Chimp

If not, it should be a “deplorable of rogues”.

J Mac

“A rogues gallery….” as in
“A rogues gallery of rugged individualists refusing the catechism of progressive socialism.”

Chimp

OK, then. A gallery of deplorable rogues.

Bruce Cobb

Robert Burns wouldnae agree.

Max

So which is better, to demand that the goals be more realistic, even if they can’t meet the arbitrary necessity of reduction, or to sign on to the arbitrary reductions, then lie about meeting them? Decisions, decisions…

Wharfplank

The Enviros and their fetish to establish a “carbon trading” system modeled on free enterprise systems but created by Marxist totalitarians is laughably transparent. It’s caricatured capitalism, like a Monopoly game. REJECT!

hunter

The trading system is to commodity trading what a ponzi scheme is to investing. The climate profiteers have positioned themselves at the top of the pyramid, so yo speak.

J Mac

What the EU ‘leadership’ can’t seem to grasp is that every ton of coal that isn’t domestically mined, and every erg of energy not generated, and every ton of steel that isn’t produced by their own domestic industries will be produced in China and India! They will destroy their critical domestic steel making industries and all of the economic benefits associated, without changing the world wide emissions of chimeric CO2 ‘pollution’ one whit.

markl

That’s the plan. Temperature has nothing to do with it. It’s all about reducing the living standards of the world to the lowest common denominator for easy control.

DaveS

Credibility with whom, I wonder.

michael hart

“We cannot allow backward-looking east EU states to destroy the EU’s credibility on the Paris agreement,” said Claude Turmes, the European parliament’s lead negotiator on climate governance.

And such a man will still be describing himself as a negotiator when he is a room containing only one person.
And even then, he will still cock it up.

“The largest threat to freedom, democracy, the market economy and prosperity, is no longer socialism. It is, instead, the ambitious, arrogant, unscrupulous ideology of environmentalism.”
“Communism was replaced by the threat of ambitious environmentalism.”
“EU didn’t advance our [Eastern Europe] democracy by a single millimeter.”
“we have just gone through 70 years of communism so why the hell would you want to go back to that”
“Other top-level politicians do not express their global warming doubts because a whip of political correctness strangles their voice.”
– All quotes by Vaclav Klaus

Janus100

Yeah!
He always made me proud to be Czech!
(Err, Czech Canadian)

Environmentalism is the sheepskin coat donned by the old Left.
A convenient call to reduce efficient energy and return the West
to a Dark Ages economy.

hunter

The Paris Agreement, allegedly toothless, is a dangerously powerful tool. It is used to threaten nations large and small by empowering bureaucrats to control people’s lives. It will be wielded to enrich non-productive ventures and to crush things people need. Kill it now.

Focus

We poles because of our difficult history we have a strong self-preservation instinct that tells us when to say no, bad ideas to pseudo environmental defenders who sit at the helm of the left-wing savior of nations

TA

I think the Polish people are acting in a commonsense way. They are not buying the EU propaganda. They are trying to maintain their indepenence.
One good thing: Trump has Poland’s back. Trump has increased U.S. military involvment in Poland in an effort to discourage Russian adventurism.

Chris Hanley

A useless fact: the Visegrad countries share the Slavic language group except Hungary, Hungarian is not even IndoEuropean and shares a Uralic origin with Finnish-Estonian.
The other non-IndoEuropean language of Europe is Basque which is unrelated to any other language.

Chimp

Saami languages are in with Finnish, Estonian, Karelian and Hungarian. Other Uralic languages with significant numbers of speakers are Erzya, Moksha, Mari, Udmurt and Komi, which are officially recognized languages in regions of European Russia.
Non-Indo-European Turkish is spoken in Europe. The Turkic and Mongolic families also have several other European members, while the Northwest Caucasian, Northeast Caucasian and Kartvelian families are important in the central extremity of geographical Europe, ie in Russia west of the Urals. Maltese, descended from Sicilian Arabic, is the only Semitic language in Europe with national status.
Of course, many immigrants to Europe speak African and Asian languages.

Reasonable Skeptic

“It is clear that the east European countries are only thinking of cheap energy and nothing else,”
But I was under the impression renewables were competitive with fossil fuels. I wish the activists would keep their crap consistent at least then it would he harder to make fun of them.

Lucius von Steinkaninchen

Coincidentally, that block of countries also opposes the unrestricted immigration policy of “lets just let the cattle stampede in” dictated by Germany.
It’s almost as if somehow the common sense in Europe got concentrated in the eastern part of the continent over time.

Phillip Wayne Townsend

“Poland’s far right government has been mired in sniping with the European commission since taking power in 2016”
The term “far right government” bothers me. In a democracy such as Poland, the government cannot be “far right” vis-a-vis it’s nation since it was elected by the people. I do not claim to be an expert on Polish politics. Still, so many times I have found “far right” to mean “I don’t like them. They are not socialist enough.”

The libtards must remember the very first thing to do when going to war with a communist dictatorship like China will be to place orders for steel on them BEFORE declaring war .

Chuck Dolci

Does one get the feeling that Germany lost the “battle” in 1945, but won the war later? They certainly seem to be in control now (or at least act like they are).

Chuck Dolci

Does one get the feeling that Germany lost the “battle” in 1945, but won the war later? They certainly seem to be in control now (or at least act like they are).

Hsssssshhhhhhh. (You are not supposed to have noticed that inconvenient factoid. )

Graham

Chuck Dolci, you only mentioned it once and I think you got away with it.
https://youtu.be/yfl6Lu3xQW0

Graham

“Anthony Watts” appears at the top of the post so, to any casual reader, he is the author of the text. I certainly thought so until I came to this classic alarmist claim:
“Coal is seen as the “foundation” of Poland’s development by the ruling Law and Justice party, despite the thousands of Poles it sends to an early grave each year, and the unparalleled dangers it poses to the climate.” Ugh!
Not until I scrolled down to the link “full post” was I relieved to find the true author.
May I suggest changes to the format of the blog to avert potentially catastrophic confusion?! For example, other blogs typically present excerpts indented and in italics.
Just a thought.

2hotel9

Eastern European countries were left with a huge clean up problem after the fall of the Iron Curtain. What has the EU done to help? Will someone please shut up those crickets so we can hear the answer!

Lars P.

“Harmful emissions from coal” sending people to an “early grave”
Yeah sure, and pellets burning do not pollute? No? Pellets are clean? Burning woods is green!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellet_fuel
EU Pellet Use (ton)
Country 2013
UK 4 540 000
Italy 3 300 000
Denmark 2 500 000
Netherlands 2 000 000
Sweden 1 650 000
Germany 1 600 000
Belgium 1 320 000