Expressions of sympathy have poured in from around the world from fellow murderous dictators and fellow climate warriors like Canadian PM Justin Trudeau, for the death of the Cuban dictator Fidel Castro.
The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today issued the following statement on the death of former Cuban President Fidel Castro:
“It is with deep sorrow that I learned today of the death of Cuba’s longest serving President.
“Fidel Castro was a larger than life leader who served his people for almost half a century. A legendary revolutionary and orator, Mr. Castro made significant improvements to the education and healthcare of his island nation.
“While a controversial figure, both Mr. Castro’s supporters and detractors recognized his tremendous dedication and love for the Cuban people who had a deep and lasting affection for “el Comandante”.
“I know my father was very proud to call him a friend and I had the opportunity to meet Fidel when my father passed away. It was also a real honour to meet his three sons and his brother President Raúl Castro during my recent visit to Cuba.
“On behalf of all Canadians, Sophie and I offer our deepest condolences to the family, friends and many, many supporters of Mr. Castro. We join the people of Cuba today in mourning the loss of this remarkable leader.”
President Obama’s eulogy was sympathetic, if a little less enthusiastic than Prime Minister Trudeau;
We know that this moment fills Cubans–in Cuba and in the United States–with powerful emotions, recalling the countless ways in which Fidel Castro altered the course of individual lives, families, and of the Cuban nation
Read more: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/president-obama-fidel-castro-death-170615139.html
Murderous Syrian tyrant Bashar Assad joins Prime Minister Trudeau and President Obama in mourning the Cuban climate warrior.
… Syria President Bashar al-Assad on Saturday hailed Fidel Castro’s “legendary resistance” to the embargo imposed by the United States against Cuba in a statement marking the death of the revolutionary leader. “The great leader Fidel Castro led his people’s and his country’s struggle against imperialism and hegemony for decades,” Assad, whose government is facing US sanctions, said in a message of condolences.
“His resistance became legendary and inspired leaders and people all over the world,” he said in the letter addressed to Castro’s brother Raul, who is president of Cuba. “Cuba, a friendly country, was able thanks to its leaders to resist against the toughest sanctions and most unjust campaigns in our modern history,” Assad said, referring to the US embargo on the island. …
Fidel Castro’s brother Raul, the thug who inherited the Cuban dictatorship from his ailing brother, is committed to continuing Castro’s battle against Climate Change and any political dissidents, artists and homosexuals who have so far escaped Cuba’s brutal extra judiciary punishment of such offences.
Remarks by President Obama and President Raul Castro of Cuba in a Joint Press Conference
…
More broadly, we’re moving ahead with partnerships in health, science, and the environment. Just as Cubans and American medical teams have worked together in Haiti against cholera, and in West Africa against Ebola — and I want to give a special commendation to Cuban doctors who volunteered and took on some very tough assignments to save lives in West Africa in partnership with us and other nations. We very much appreciate the work that they did. Our medical professionals will now collaborate in new areas, preventing the spread of viruses like Zika and leading new research into cancer vaccines. Our governments will also work to protect the beautiful waters of this region that we share.
And as two countries threatened by climate change, I believe we can work together to protect communities and our low-lying coasts. And we’re inviting Cuba to join us and our Caribbean and Central American partners at this spring’s regional energy summit in Washington.
…
President Raul Castro on Climate Change;
President Raul Castro Warns on Consequences of Climate Change
Cuba´s President Raul Castro, denounced today here that the global temperature rise will compromise first, integrity and physical existence of many countries and island nations, and will produce serious consequences to the Third World.
Key Remarks of President Raul Castro at Rio+20
“Despite the milestone that marked the United Nations Convention on Climate Change, emissions of carbon dioxide increased by 38 percent between 1990 and 2009”, said Raul Castro speaking at the plenary session of the Summit United Nations Conference on Sustainable Development, Rio +20.
…
President Obama and President Raul Castro’s remarks echo Fidel Castro’s earlier commitment to fighting climate change in 2012.
Fidel Castro warns of climate change
Havana – Cuba’s iconic revolutionary Fidel Castro warned that the world was on an “inexorable” march into the abyss this year because of climate change and the threat of nuclear war.
In an article published on Thursday – Castro’s first since November 2011 – the 85-year-old retired leader also took aim at the United States and at gas shale “fracking”, a new source of fossil fuels condemned by environmentalists.
He did not, however, address rumours of his death, which were denied by an official Cuban blogger after they surfaced on Twitter earlier this week.
“Many dangers threaten us, but two of them, nuclear war and climate change, are decisive and are drifting further away from a solution,” he wrote in an article entitled “The March Towards the Abyss.”
…
Read more: http://www.news24.com/World/News/Fidel-Castro-warns-of-climate-change-20120106
Some Cuban exiles in Miami, who seem hung up on how many of their relatives and friends were brutalised and murdered by Castro and his thugs, are distracting attention away from Castro’s climate warrior legacy.
Castro was a mass murderer
President Obama said this about the death of Fidel Castro: “History will record and judge the enormous impact of this singular character.”
And I say “Fidel Castro was a mass murderer who ordered the killing of thousands of innocent Cubans, in order to scare and control the rest of the Cuban population.”
He had a peaceful death, but in his final days he should have experienced a lot of suffering; he should have been dragged through the streets of Havana, like Mussolini in Italy, and then hanged.
…
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/article117295703.html
President-elect Trump also criticised the Cuban dictator’s reign;
“Fidel Castro’s legacy is one of firing squads, theft, unimaginable suffering, poverty and the denial of fundamental human rights”
Read more: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/11/26/eu-chief-juncker-praises-hero-fidel-castro/
Some critics have mocked Trudeau’s heartfelt eulogy for his fellow green on Twitter, completely ignoring Castro’s strong stand against global warming.
https://twitter.com/FowlCanuck/status/802592021131259904
It is with a heavy heart that we mourn the passing of Saddam Hussein. His advancements in chemical research live on. #trudeaueulogies
— The Count (@TheCountDM) November 26, 2016
Jack the Ripper was a permanent influence on the lives of many economically deprived White Chapel women. #trudeaueulogies
— Regulus de Leo (@RegulusdeLeo) November 26, 2016
https://twitter.com/Integralmathyt/status/802599390623899648
https://twitter.com/realMaxRenn/status/802608014842855424
https://twitter.com/RenegadeMinds/status/802607939617980416
https://twitter.com/TheC0zmo/status/802607935130046465
Despite the criticism, I’m confident that Fidel Castro will be remembered by the liberal elite as one of their own – someone who stopped at nothing to address the twin problems of overpopulation and carbon pollution, by murdering lots of people, especially people who disagreed with him, and by doing everything in his power to halt harmful economic growth, by shackling his country’s economy to the grinding misery of decades of communist stagnation.
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
An article in which Fidel Castro is dragged in because amongst all his other achievements and crimes he may actually not have rejected climate science?
This is really a shabby piece of work.
I don’t think any of the North Korean leaders have actually ever rejected AGW, if you want to continue on this line of articles….
Climate science should be debated on the science, not politics and by smears by association.
For shame sir! This website can and should do better!
I’m with you Griff.
The politicisation of science is the greatest fault of the Left…let’s not fall into their grimy old trap.
Griff,
I do agree with you. This has no place on a scientific blog. Castro was a dictator and a murderer like any other dictator. He just replaced another dictator and murderer (Batista) who was not any better…
If he was for or against (C)AGW has little to do with what he did for or against his people on all aspects of life…
Just be VERY THANKFUL that the USA dodged a Castro like bullet by not electing Hillary Clinton.
“Climate science should be debated on the science”
We are waiting !!!
▪ DiogenesDespairs elselskin • 14 hours ago
Here is some of that “fast-growing body of science.” Crucial, verifiable facts – with citations – people need to know about human-generated carbon dioxide and its effect on global warming.
The fact is, there has been global warming, but the contribution of human-generated carbon dioxide is necessarily so minuscule as to be nearly undetectable. Here’s why:
Carbon dioxide, considered the main vector for human-caused global warming, is some 0.038% of the atmosphere[1]- a trace gas. Water vapor varies from 0% to 4%[2], and should easily average 1% or more[3] near the Earth’s surface, where the greenhouse effect would be most important, and is about three times more effective[4] a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. So water vapor is at least 25 times more prevalent and three times more effective; that makes it at least 75 times more important to the greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide[5]. The TOTAL contribution of carbon dioxide to the greenhouse effect is therefore 0.013 or less. The total human contribution to atmospheric carbon dioxide since the start of the industrial revolution has been estimated at about 25%[6]. So humans’ carbon dioxide greenhouse effect is a quarter of 0.013, works out to about 0.00325. Total warming of the Earth by the greenhouse effect is widely accepted as about 33 degrees Centigrade, raising average temperature to 59 degrees Fahrenheit. So the contribution of anthropogenic carbon dioxide is less than 0.2 degrees Fahrenheit, or under 0.1 degree Centigrade. Global warming over the last century is thought by many to be about 0.6 degrees Centigrade.
But that’s only the beginning. We’ve had global warming for more than 10,000 years, since the end of the last Ice Age[7]. Whatever caused that, it was not human activity. It was not all those power plants and factories and SUVs being operated by Stone Age cavemen while chipping arrowheads out of bits of flint. Whatever the cause was, it melted the glaciers that in North America once extended south to Long Island and parts of New York City[8] into virtually complete disappearance (except for a few mountain remnants). That’s one big greenhouse effect! If we are still having global warming – and I suppose we should presume we are, given a 10,000 year trend – it seems highly likely that it is still the overwhelmingly primary cause of continued warming, rather than our piddling 0.00325 contribution to the greenhouse effect.
Yet even that trend-continuation needs to be proved. Evidence is that the Medieval Warm Period centered on the 1200s was somewhat warmer than we are now[9], and the climate was clearly colder in the Little Ice Age in the 1600s than it is now[10]. So we are within the range of normal up-and-down fluctuations without human greenhouse contributions that could be significant, or even measurable.
The principal scientists arguing for human-caused global warming have been demonstrably disingenuous[11], and now you can see why. They have proved they should not be trusted.
The idea that we should be spending hundreds of billions of dollars and hamstringing the economy of the entire world to reduce carbon dioxide emissions is beyond ludicrous in light of the facts above; it is insane. Furthermore, it sucks attention and resources from seeking the other sources of warming and from coping with climate change and its effects in realistic ways. The true motivation underlying the global warming movement is almost certainly ideological and political in nature, and I predict that Anthropomorphic Global Warming, as currently presented, will go down as the greatest fraud of all time. It makes Ponzi and Madoff look like pikers by comparison.
[1] Fundamentals of Physical Geography, 2nd Edition
by Michael Pidwirny Concentration varies slightly with the growing season in the northern hemisphere. HYPERLINK “http://www.physicalgeography.n…” http://www.physicalgeography.n…
[2] ibid.
[3] HALOE v2.0 Upper Tropospheric Water Vapor Climatology Claudette Ojo, Hampton University; et al.. HYPERLINK “http://vsgc.odu.edu/src/Conf09…” http://vsgc.odu.edu/src/Conf09…. See p. 4.The 0 – 4% range is widely accepted among most sources. This source is listed for its good discussion of the phenomena determining that range. An examination of a globe will show that tropical oceans (near high end of range) are far more extensive than the sum of the earth’s arctic and antarctic regions and tropical-zone deserts (all near the low end). Temperate zone oceans are far more extensive than temperate-zone desert. This author’s guess of an average of 2% or more seems plausible. I have used “1% or more” in an effort to err on the side of understatement.
[4 NIST Chemistry Webbook, Please compare the IR absorption spectra of water and carbon dioxide. ] HYPERLINK “http://webbook.nist.gov/” http://webbook.nist.gov/
[5] Three quarters of the atmosphere and virtually all water vapor are in the troposphere. Including all the atmosphere would change the ratios to about 20 times more prevalent and 60 times more effective. However, the greenhouse effect of high-altitude carbon dioxide on lower-altitude weather and the earth’s surface seems likely to be small if not nil.
[6] National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration. HYPERLINK “http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/cl…” http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/cl…. The estimated 90ppm increase in carbon dioxide, 30% above the base of 280 ppm, to a recent reading of 370 ppm, equates to just under 25% of present concentration, the relevant factor in estimating present contribution to the greenhouse effect.
[7] Oak Ridge National Laboratory http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projec…
[8] New York Nature – The nature and natural history of the New York City region. Betsy McCully http://www.newyorknature.net/I…
[9] Global Warming: A Geological Perspective John P. Bluemle HYPERLINK “https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/Ne…” https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/Ne… This article, published by the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Agency, is drawn from a paper by the author in Environmental Geosciences, 1999, Volume 6, Number 2, pp. 63-75. Note particularly the chart on p.4.
[10] Ibid.
[11] Wikileaks: Climatic Research Unit emails, data, models, 1996-2009 HYPERLINK “http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Clim…” http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Clim….
See also HYPERLINK “http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new…” http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new… and
HYPERLINK “http://online.wsj.com/article/…” http://online.wsj.com/article/… and, more diplomatically: HYPERLINK “http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12…” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12…. Et al.
ADDENDUM
What initially troubled me was the aberrant behavior of the climate research unit at East Anglia University, which has been the main data source for AGW arguments. They initially refused (!) to reveal their algorithms and data on the grounds that they were proprietary(!!). They responded to critics with ad hominem attacks and efforts to block their publication in scientific journals. Now, as I am sure you know, this is not how one does honest science, in which you PUBLISH your data and methodology and invite critical comment to ferret out error or oversights. It took the now-famous Wikileaks “Climategate” to pry loose the data and expose their machinations. Yet despite the devastating blow these revelations should have to their credibility, the AGW “cause” has taken on a life of its own.
Fundamentally, the argument seems to rest on a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc – after this, therefore because of this. We see a rise in temperature and a rise in (principally) carbon dioxide, and therefore conclude one must have caused the other. It does not necessarily follow at all. There can be other causes entirely behind both phenomena, and as you see above, almost certainly there are. Beyond that, I have encountered numerous assertions of fact that cannot add up given the physical properties of water vapor and carbon dioxide that go unchallenged. One-sided arguments proliferate and people arguing the other side are frequently denounced as being employed by business interests rather than rebutted on the merits.
In sum, I have not come lightly to the conclusion that the AGW argument as it applies to carbon dioxide is largely untrue and certainly does not account for more than a very small, nearly negligible part of the phenomena we are seeing. The implications of widespread assertions of and belief in such an untruth are staggering, and potentially enormously destructive. It is unwise indeed to let oneself be stampeded in this matter, and stampede is clearly what many have been and are trying to induce.
I can understand politicians behaving this way; a carbon tax or carbon trading regime would allow enormous revenues to fall into their hands. I can understand “Progressive” ideologues; it logically leads to enormous expansion of government power over industry, the economy, and the daily life of individuals, which they regard as a good thing. I understand the environmentalists; they want to shrink the size and impact on the environment of modern civilization. But responsible citizens need to put aside such considerations.
Repost
Right on Griff!
We should make more people aware if how war, genocide and brutal repression of the academia plus economic destruction – which is so characteristic of the Progressive Left -is the only way we will reduce emissions by the simple expedient of removing all the people who don’t agree with us.
WE are not holocaust deniers are we Griff? We celebrate the holocaust – that nice mr Hitler was an animal loving vegan.
If we hadn’t been so reactionary, we would have had a proper European Union 70 years ago!
His position, like that of many / most third-worlders, was likely largely determined by the potential payoff and the absence of any cost to their own economies:
Read site policy and respect the site owner for allowing content that offends you.
“Read site policy and respect the site owner for allowing content that offends you.”
Yeah, we don’t need more censorship. If you don’t like an article, skip over it and find something you do like. How hard is that?
Trying to take politics out of climate science is a waste of time. The Left put politics into it, and it has to be opposed in some manner, and will be, so there you go.
” The Left put politics into it”
The left basically manufactured this whole ‘settled science’ as a means to an end. Now they must actually defend it with something more than a ‘Cook’ed up consensus and personal attacks on dissenters.
It’s not your website. If you don’t like Anthony’s policies, go read something else.
Griff
Are you always a troll?
Maybe he only is on ever other day?
He appears to be a troll on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays but not any other days
He’s only a troll on days that end in ‘y’.
“About Watts Up With That? News and commentary on puzzling things in life, nature, science, weather, climate change, technology, and recent news by Anthony Watts”
It is notable that the current leading climate consensus troll at this web sight wishes to limit discussion about tyranny and dictators. He pretends that so called “climate change” is merely about the science. How he reveals himself with his false moralistic posing
..Hey Griffy, want some cheese to go with that whine ?
“Climate science should be debated on the science”
Hehehe!
You’re funny!
I always like it when some butt head is a GUEST at the blog of someone else and feels he has the right to tell them what the content/context of their blog articles and discussions should be. Typical! I would say go away Griff but your posts are so pathetic that they add a level of humor here.
RAH, Grifter’s attitude is typical of the
Fascist“Liberal” Left and their uncontrollable need to censor all speech and thought that doesn’t agree precisely with their own bigoted, narrow, twisted world view, no matter where it may be.But, as you correctly observe, his astonishing level of scientific illiteracy combined with his absolute assurance of his absolute knowledge is a never-failing source of merriment!
Fantastic idea Griff, perhaps you could convince Michael Mann et al about that very FACT that climate science should be debated on the science and not have that debate DENIED by claiming consensus
Funny how Griff wants to disassociate AGW from any dictator when that dictator is no longer useful
Fido is dead, long may he stay so.
Stephen, I just wish ( as many do) it would have happened sooner, like about 60 years ago.
Be careful what you wish for. In an alternate time line, Batista might have talked the Russian command into launching missiles. (or not)
If it had been Bautista, there never would have been any Russian missiles.
Bautista was no US puppet, but he was smart enough to realize that his islands wealth was based on trade with the US.
It really is extraordinary to see this fawning over someone whose claim to fame has been to subject the Cuban people to 50 plus years of poverty and terror. This proves, as some have already noted, that amongst us in the better-off world are those who want to emulate this tyrant. How strange then that electorates flirt time and again with policies whose destination will deliver them into a regime like Cuba or Venezuela. This I find wholly incomprehensible!
Our self declared best and brightest have betrayed us by corrupting our education system, filling our bureaucracies with over paid ideologues, and now as we see in the totally fabricated “fake news” crisis, openly seek censorship of all others who do not toe the line.
Not to mention the tens of millions killed in Cuba-backed proxy wars and general terrorism in Africa and South America resulting from Castro’s actions as a catspaw of the Soviet Union.
Don’t forget the carbon footprint of all those 1950s cars they’re still driving. I doubt their fuel economy is as good as a Prius.
Or are they just Potemkin Cars with Soviet 1.0-litre fours replacing the old V8s?
I seem to remember an article noting some of the Detroit Iron in Cuba was converted to using S. Korean made diesel engines and transmisions intended for light trucks (lorries to the Brits).
From my post written circa 2000-2005:
[excerpt]
I’ve also been to Cuba, and it is a cesspool of poverty and degradation (Trudeau boys, please take note).
What is truly interesting is that there are still apologists for Castro and Cuba here in Canada, even as Fidel himself has recently admitted that Cuba is a failed state.
They are probably the same “useful idiots” who said that Communist East Germany was a good model for Canada to emulate. I seem to recall several former [Canadian] NDP leaders who tried to sell us that line of BS (the names Broadbent and Lewis come to mind).
I travelled to East Germany, going through the Berlin Wall at Checkpoint Charlie in 1989, shortly before the Wall fell. East Germany was a cesspool too. While not as materially poor as Castro’s Cuba, it was an even more vicious police state where neighbour spied upon neighbour, and nobody felt safe from the Stasi secret police. Those who tried to escape were shot, and often allowed to bleed to death in “no-man’s land” between the many barbed-wire fences that formed “the Wall”.
Epilogue
The last person to be shot and killed while trying to cross the border from East to West Germany was Chris Gueffroy on February 6, 1989. He was 20 years old. Rest in peace, kid.
From another of my posts written circa 2000-2005:
You appear to be a big fan of the murderer Fidel Castro and his bosom buddy Pierre Elliott Trudeau (aka PET).
PET, the little fart (bilingual pun), died of prostate cancer.
This clearly proves that God exists, and has a wry sense of humour.
RAH wrote:
“In 1985 one could still look over the wall into E. Berlin in places and see buildings with WW II scars.”
In July 1998 there was still evidence of WW2 damage in downtown East Berlin.
In comparison, cities that were levelled by Allied bombing in West Germany were completely rebuilt. Some areas, including the century-old “New” City Hall and Glockenspiel at Marienplatz in Munich were lovingly re-created in their original pre-war magnificence.
If anyone has any delusions about how poorly socialism/communism really works, you would have lost them quickly had you travelled with me on business to Cuba, East Germany and the Former Soviet Union in the past few decades.
Regards, Allan
.
HI All en,
I also visited DDR in 1963(?) twice, one through Checkpoint Charlie and the second, very unofficially. On the second one, I joined two Canadians and a couple of South Africans in VW van in Switzerland to tour up through Scandinavia. Coming down from Denmark, a little inattention resulted in us taking a road that we soon realized was off the beaten track, but a kilometre stone saying ‘Berliner 100km(?), encouraged us to continue.
We went through the most bleak bombed out towns and cities having had, zero clean up and repairs until we came to the northern outskirts of Berlin where at a major checkpoint we were surrounded by military with machine guns. They took the driver who spoke German for interrogation for several hours. They brought him back, put an armed soldier in the front passenger seat and directed us back the way we came. I think the Swiss plates and our obvious stupidity won the day. But a look at that sorry landscape was a lesson in Totalitarian political economy.
I think Trudeau Jr. visited Cuba with his daddy as a toddler. Merkl should definitely know better having been a stasi officer, IIRC.
In 1985 one could still look over the wall into E. Berlin in places and see buildings with WW II scars.
HI Gary and thank you for your post.
Ronald Reagan was correct – East Germany was a sh!thole, part of the Evil Empire..
Regards, Allan
Also posted circa 2005:
I’ve also been to Cuba, once, also a business trip. Nice people, Terrible Government.
Cuba is not as openly repressive as Honecker’s East Germany, but I am sure that those who express dissent have a life that is interesting and short.
I am not easily fooled by the “Potemkin Villages” of communist regimes. Apparently our Canadian socialist leaders, the Lewis’s and Broadbent, WERE fooled by these deceptions. They were, and remain, imbeciles.
In Cuba, everything, even basic foods, are in short supply. People were used to being hungry. Everyone was thin, except Fidel and Raul. Prosperity in Cuba is having a relative in Miami who sends you stuff.
We hung out with the band at our hotel, and they took us to the local watering holes where Cubans partied. We had a good, clean fun time. But it was clear that Cubans lived in extreme poverty, and prostitution with tourists was commonly practiced, even by decent young women who were helping to feed their hungry families.
Cuba’s normally joyful society has been deeply degraded by Communism under Fidel. He is a true bastard.
In East Germany, things were much worse. People weren’t always hungry, but they were always afraid. Afraid of me, because of my western clothes – just talking to me could land them in prison. But most of all, afraid of the Stasi, the East German secret police.
We were driven by the Stasi from Tegel airport in West Berlin through Checkpoint Charlie into East Berlin. The contrast was startling. It was Friday night and West Berlin, then one of the great fun cities of the world, was popping. A quick stop at the Checkpoint, and then a sharp left/right turn onto Unter den Linden, the main street extending from the Brandenburg Gate.
What a contrast! Ours was the ONLY vehicle on the entire street, and there were NO pedestrians. There were eight little police kiosks on each contiguous city block – to keep potential defectors away from the western embassies and the Wall.
The Stasi lived well – but everyone, including the Stasi, were always afraid. The stress must have been overwhelming.
You wonder who would want to run such repressive, horrible regimes. Psychopaths, I suppose
*******************************
Potemkin Village.
Origin:
1935-40; after Prince Potemkin, who allegedly had villages of cardboard constructed for Catherine II’s visit to the Ukraine and the Crimea in 1787.
I went into East Berlin in the early 1990s. We entered through the Brandenburg Gate, to be met with a huge gold-colored statue of a Russian soldier outfitted in greatcoat and machine gun. The statue apparently was there to remind East Berliners of their saviors.
The faces of all the decrepit buildings near the gate were liberally pock-marked with WWII bullet holes. Buildings were falling down, literally. Many had interior courtyards, with structural beams broken and leaning, and the lower floors missing the facing walls. People lived in the upper floors, up rickety stairs, often as squatters in grubby wrecked rooms. Often the squatters seemed to be artists, with their accumulated works — some rather bizarre — stacked in the courtyards.
This was all 45 years after the end of the war. We wondered whether those buildings were left in that state as a warning against thoughts of rebellion.
The Cuban use of so called fossil fuels is insignificant.
The climate there ensures that they have no winter fuel bills to worry about.
Perhaps Fidel’s climate policy was to advise the USA to get the most expensive fuel so as to screw up their economy.
Not such a daft policy from his perspective.
Lets look at some of his other policies
1. Free Health Service for all (achieving Scandinavian levels of care).
2. Free Education for all producing the most literate country in all the Americas
3. No drugs problem – perhaps the only country in the Americas to rid itself of this curse.
No wonder then that some Cubans who grew rich under Batista on the Casino, Mafia, drugs and prostitution trade have now moved to Miami.
The so called ‘Scarface Generation’ now rejoice!
Not true. If you disagreed with Castro, or were gay, or were deemed wrong, you got no health care, no education, no job and no housing. So not “for all”. And the health care and education was paid for by the miserable, poor people of the USSR, without their consent.
And then Cuba only survived on free oil from Chavez, who similarly repressed his people.
Anybody can spend other people’s money and claim to be a saint. Only fools and morons agree with them.
True, life for the peasants outside the cities is borderline stone age.
Lucky them, but the same can be said for all the Caribbean islands. I do not think Castro has much to do with it.
An outstanding achievement. It would be even better if they could afford extras like antibiotics and vaccines.
Again, laudable. Much better if they had a free society in which to utilize their free educations.
Roving death squads murdering all drug users, drug dealers, alleged users and alleged dealers. Some might consider the program to be a bit extreme. Leftist activists might even cry “human rights abuse” if tried in the US or Canada.
No doubt about it. Havana ca. 1955 was the status tourist destination, full of glamour and glitz. The place for the rich and famous to go to see and be seen. And, of course, it had it’s dark seamy underside as well. In other words, it had more than a passing resemblance to Las Vegas.
It sounds like Vote Bernie!
Bryan
And all those wonderful things with just the small cost of freedom. By the way prisoners get free education and medical too. As for drugs are you arguing for a police state to eliminate drug use with it death penelties and 100% border control?
Your naive thinking is entertaining.
“2. Free Education for all producing the most literate country in all the Americas”
Who told you that? Castro?
Bryan….drugs are a big problem in Cuba. It’s one of the main routes for getting drugs into this country.
Everyone in Cuba would have starved years ago if the other communist countries had not decided to make Cuba the poster child for successful communist countries. They have propped Cuba up for decades.
Latitude
It depends on how serious the Government is in tackling the problem
http://lexingtoninstitute.org/issue-2-cuba-responds-to-growing-drug-problems/
A war hero General was not spared when it emerged that he attempted to run drugs
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/14/world/cuban-general-and-three-others-executed-for-sending-drugs-to-us.html
Contrast that with the out of control situation on the USA/Mexican border
On the Mexican side the police have lost all control as they are heavily outgunned by the Drug cartels
Only the army is capable of matching their firepower
Some parts along the USA side of the border are heavily saturated by the same gangs
No wonder Trump got the endorsement of the US border guards for his “Wall” policy
A war hero General was not spared when it emerged that he attempted to run drugs…
Nope, Ochoa was another Castro paranoia…he was executed because Castro considered him a threat.
The rest were put in prison…
Having an open border with Mexico…is the most insane thing I’ve ever seen
A war hero General was not spared when it emerged that he attempted to run drugs…
That’s not the whole story…..Ochoa was running drugs with Raul (Castro’s brother) behind Castro’s back. Castro was running drugs with another group. Ochoa was executed because of Fidel’s paranoia. Fidel didn’t want him to have any power. Fidel didn’t trust him and felt if he was alive..he could use his drug connections to over throw Fidel. That’s why he was executed..and the rest got prison.
A war hero General was not spared when it emerged that he attempted to run drugs…
That’s not the whole story…..Ochoa was running drugs with Raul (Castro’s brother) behind Castro’s back. Castro was running drugs with another group. Ochoa was executed because of Fidel’s paranoia. Fidel didn’t
want him to have any power. Fidel didn’t trust him and felt if he was alive..he could use his drug connections to over throw Fidel. That’s why he was executed..and the rest got prison.
the most literate country..
Bryan, this would be called a “Castro two-fer”…
One he could brag about and wag in people’s faces…..
….and two, control what people think
When you teach them to read, and control what they read…..you can shape shift them/mold them the way to want them
Our own schools and media are trying as hard as they can to pull that off right now…….
Castro was a Scarface who took over the country. Prostitution? It’s the main draw for tourism. Castro once bragged about the college educated prostitutes in his country.
Bruce you say
“Castro once bragged about the college educated prostitutes in his country.”
Could you give a link to support your assertion?
I don’t think you can!
..that was easy
* “One of the greatest benefits of the revolution is that even our prostitutes are college graduates.” — Castro to director Oliver Stone in 2003 documentary “Comandante.”
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-cuba-castro-quotes-factbox-idUKKBN13L04M
Bryan,
Yes, one can become a doctor or engineer for free but then you look for work in the tourist trade if you want to make a living.
Health care was good if you were part of the leadership, or a tourist who could pay cash.
For the people it was always awful.
Free education. The US has had that for 100 years. Same with many other Latin American countries.
However what good is free if it is bad and inaccurate?
No drug problems.
1) Nobody has the money to buy drugs.
2) The US could get rid of our drug problem is all dealers were shot on site and users locked up.
Posted in 2014:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09/26/odd-dept-of-homeland-security-testing-programs-for-climate-change-as-national-threat/#comment-1749191
The degree of polarization in USA politics is extreme and destructive – it appears both the far-left and far-right are insane.
In Canada we have a far-left that is as crazy as the US version – Thomas Mulcair and Justin Trudeau are doctrinaire imbeciles who have a reasonable chance of seizing power from the first competent government we’ve had in generations. Mulcair and Trudeau rely upon the George Carlin principle: “You know how stupid the average person is, right? Well half of them are stupider than that.”
Our Canadian government is centre-right and our Prime Minister {harper] actually puts the country first. Amazing, and rare.
As I see it, the USA has an opportunity to revitalize its economy through cheap energy from shale fracking, but Obama is so beholden to global warming fanatics and other imbeciles that he is incapable of leading this initiative. Better luck next time, my American friends…
Regards to all, Allan
In Trump, the real Trump, not the Castro mourning left caricature of Trump, we have a moderate leader who is not under the thumb of the corrupt leftist oligarchy. He is one of the few available.
Hunter,
“In Trump, the real Trump, not the Castro mourning left caricature of Trump, we have a moderate leader who is not under the thumb of the corrupt leftist oligarchy. He is one of the few available.”
Perhaps I am confused by your statement above as it sounds like you believe Trump is ‘mourning’ Castros death. In fact, it is just the opposite. He said, from above article:
President-elect Trump also criticised the Cuban dictator’s reign;
“Fidel Castro’s legacy is one of firing squads, theft, unimaginable suffering, poverty and the denial of fundamental human rights”
“Better luck next time, my American friends…”
We finally got lucky, Allan. Maybe some of that luck will rub off on our friends, too. 🙂
Fidel Castro was truly a monster and Cuba is marginally better off now that he has gone on to his just reward. Unfortunately, another Castro is left in charge of the dictatorship.
I realize it may not be popular here, but I would like to point out that it is the nation-state itself that is the problem. Some are better than others, certainly, but all are a gang of thieves writ large. There has never been a truly good government and there have been many, many truly horrific ones.
The least horrible governments have been those with the weakest central governments. At least a Peru does not invade countries on the other side of the world who could not do them any harm even if they wanted to do so. Peru just does not have the ability to mount the attack.
The early USA had a weak central government and the various governors and city mayors were far more important to the citizens than the president. Some refer to such times as the “golden age”. But even then we can find horrific, inhuman crimes committed by governments at all levels.
Castro was one of the worst, most brutal, corrupt dictators but he was just an over achiever in evil. There is great evil in any government you look at.
Mark
Well stated
The problem is not the “nation-state”, the problem is the humans who want to run them.
As long as there are governments, there will always be awful ones.
A weak government that merely protects people from each other (Real crimes, not the millions of made up ones we have today. Such as theft and assault/murder.) is the best that we can hope for.
PS: If a city has a corrupt government, moving to the next city over is not that big a deal.
I hate to disagree, but the problem is the nation-state. The state lives by taking from the people by force and the power that the few at the top have is way more than any human can handle. Power corrupts after all. The state is force. Recall that Mao said that all government flows from the barrel of a gun.
Notice that Ireland made it up to perhaps 9,000 years with an anarchy. There have been other examples.
https://markstoval.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/1000-years-of-irish-anarchy/
https://markstoval.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/9000-years-of-anarchy-in-ireland/
No, Mark, what Ireland had was a large group of petty rulers who never managed to unite enough to deal with the Norse or the English. Both my grandmothers were part Irish, one an Irish nationalist, and the old country was very romantic but a lousy place to actually live. I suppose we will have Somalis making similar claims about the old country in the future.
It wasn’t anarchy, it was more like tribal government. There is never, no government.
We will just have to disagree since i can see neither of you have ever studied what an anarchy is, nor what the monks wrote done when they got to Ireland. I would hate to have your delusions shattered on my account. Carry on …
But one thing I have to say. There is one hell of a difference between a functioning society and a nation state. If you don’t know the difference, then we don’t need to talk. After all, I don’t try to explain the difference to young kids either.
Castro was certainly an anti-democratic dictator who cared little for human rights who much in common with East European socialist dictators.When I was a student I campaigned against him on many an occasion. However, and there is always a however, there were two sides to the story.
No-one endured more vilification, and no-one survived more assassination attempts. In the face of 50 years of sanctions and persecution, he achieved the best literacy rate in the Caribbean, plus one of the best health services in the world. Including infant mortality better than Florida and much of rural USA – plus the donation of emergency health support to countries hit by disaster including ebola, earthquakes and more. No, he was far from perfect. As Castro said, we talk about Human rights, but sometime we also have to discuss the rights of humanity.
But while human rights in Cuba aren’t perfect, they’re no worse than many countries in the world – just different. Russian human rights are not great at present, but Putin contributed a great deal to the Election of Trump so we are unlikely to hear much about Russian rights, Latin American right wing dictators had horrendous human rights records where hundreds of thousands were killed or disappeared, but we hear little of the US support for those particular psychopaths.
In reality we view the behaviour of such dictators on the left and right through the prism of our own prejudices, not through any objective or humanitarian measurement. That’s normal, but it is a very poor informant as to whether a regime is right or wrong.
Garth
Don’t think it’s hard “a regime” is always bad. When a persons life and freedoms is beholden to his/her governments whims then evil is present.
Other than accusations from the left what proof do you have that Putin contributed to trumps victory over his freind Hillary, you no the person who reset our relationship with Russia, the person who gave away 25% of our uranium reserves to Putin for cash, the same person who took direct contributions to her fondation from Putin?
If your claiming Wikileaks Farange already said it wasn’t the Russians and even if it was do you have problem finding the truth out from those emails?
Doubt every claim of achievement made by the Castro regime. They lie about everything.
Of course they do.
Cuba is almost as left as San Fran Nan.
Fidel Castro was one of the half dozen or so most evil, bloodstained tyrants of the 20th century.
The number of deaths in Africa and South America resulting from his work as the primary agent of Soviet proxy wars against the West will never be counted, but certainly run into tens – perhaps hundreds – of millions. In that he certainly surpassed genocidal filth such as Pol Pot.
The World is a vastly better place for his passing.
Putin contributed a great deal to the Election of Trump so we are unlikely to hear much about Russian rights
Is it your opinion that all those “stupid white voters” just listened to Putin? Were there pro-Trump advertisements on TV paid for by Putin? Donations from Russia to Trump campaign? How exactly did he contributed to Trump election?
Please show some support for this statement – but please don’t use the silly story about “secret” dns traffic between Trump and Alpha bank, it’s so stupid it’s embarrassing.
And we pretty much know about Russian rights.
In any event, there is only one side to this story – a brutal dictator had died. Good riddance
Garth
Putin contributed to Trumps election?
Any evidence of that?
You mean to say he turned on the one person in the world who understood him and rest our relationship with Russia? The same person that gave him control of 25% of our uranium reserves for a mere donation to a private charity and few bucks to some personal freinds and relations? The same person that Putin has been financing for years?
Oh that’s right our great media says it so I forgot.
Most of those achievements were nothing more than propaganda. I’ve already documented some of the many refutations for the claims about Cuba’s medical and education institutions.
As far as donating medical services, that was never true. Cuba sold those services, the countries that received them paid Cuba for the services the doctors provide.
Human Rights aren’t perfect? Sure, getting arrested for disagreeing with the government is just a minor blip on the road to perfecting society????
And now we get to the core of it. You are an idiot.
The claim that Putin was helping Trump is often claimed, and eagerly believed by those who have no ability to think for themselves. Such as yourself.
BTW, intelligent people are capable of realizing that just because someone isn’t a communist, doesn’t mean that they are therefor a right wing dictator.
Justin Trudeau’s tribute is appalling. Fidel Castro was an enemy to Western values, an enemy to free speech and an enemy to human decency.
It shows the mindset of the Global Warming advocates like Justin Trudeau. They are, at heart, Authoritarian despots who aim to impose upon society their world view without criticism and at our expense.
No freedom loving person in Canada should be under any impression that Trudeau is a classical liberal. He is a Socialist in heart, spirit and politics…. No Canadian should vote for this man or his party again. He has shown Canada his true colours.
The leftists are truly appalling.
“It shows the mindset of the Global Warming advocates like Justin Trudeau. They are, at heart, Authoritarian despots who aim to impose upon society their world view without criticism and at our expense.”
Exactly right, and that’s why they admire Castro, because he did something they wish they could do: have absolute power over people.
Trudeau’s hardly made a secret of his dictator fetish: “There’s a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime.”
Is there any evidence that the Chinese dictators have turned around their economy? Much less on a dime.
China’s economy is much better than it was a few decades ago. The reason for that improvement is because the Chinese dictators started allowing low levels of capitalism.
What on earth is the matter with Canadians, electing this horrible man?
Ron, Just as the MSM tried to elect Clinton in the USA, They succeeded in Canada, the MSM in Canada flooded the news with anti conservative mumbo jumbo including climate change. The result: Trudeau in Ottawa, Notley ( NDP ) in Alberta and Wynne (liberal) in Ontario. In BC the left loonies are stopping real development of new harbors, pipelines and so on.
Say after me: Left wing (socialist) murderers good; Right wing (national socialist) murderers bad. Left wing …
A bit paradoxical! There are a lot of people who say the opposite. The reality is all oppressors are bad, left, right, up down, West or East. The trick is to be consistent in our condemnation, and look at all aspects of the persons crimes or achievements.
Garth agreed, except you don’t see mainstream people on the right making heros out of dictators. Can’t tell you how many Che, Castro, and even mao tee shirts I have seen in my life.
Young people in University ted to do these things like wear Che tea shirts, but it’s government backing for the likes of Salazar, Samoza, Castro, Augusti, Pinochet and the rest of those psychopaths who killed millions that gives them power. If they did not have the backing of countries like the US, Russia and the UK they would probably remain agitators on the fringes of politics, but we give them what they want. As recently as 1999 when it was clear what had happened in Chile under the Generals, Thatcher was still entertaining Pinochet and treating him as a hero and left wing politicians were paying homage to Castro.
When we condemn these creatures, we also need to take a good hard look at what else our own governments have been up to and how involved they were on both sides.
Garth
So the fact that liberal universities teach kids to revere socialist dictators has no effect on the policies our governments follow? When our “leaders” legitimize them has no effect?
Your making excuse.
The trick is to stop lefty revisions to history.
Gareth, what choice did the west have once the Soviet Union started creating communist revolutionary movements throughout the world?
Repeat after me: Socialists and National Socialists are both Left Wing and are both really, really bad.
+100
+1000
National socialists, are still socialists, so they are left wing.
It turns out that the climate consensus warriors are the cutting edge of the lefty community. After all in the modern era, it was the climate concerned who led the way in rationalizing the silencing of views counter to their agenda by dismissing the skeptics, pretending that skeptics have no evidence, and by denigrating their right to even exist. Now we see the lefties of the world expanding on this technique. A new category of thought crime has been fabricated out of whole cloth by the left. Using false claims about “fake news”, fleeing all discussion about issues, and blatantly calling for criminally prosecuting those who they have decided are guilty of this new thought crime. Climate change obsessed thugs have led the way for this.
“A new category of thought crime has been fabricated out of whole cloth by the left. Using false claims about “fake news”, fleeing all discussion about issues, and blatantly calling for criminally prosecuting those who they have decided are guilty of this new thought crime. Climate change obsessed thugs have led the way for this.”
This one may backfire on them, hunter. The conservative news media are now calling MSM news stories “fake”, which they are, so the Left can raise this issue, but the Right has plenty of ammunition to prove the MSM is more guilty than anyone when it comes to fake news stories.
The Left can probably list a few dozen stories they can point to as being fake, and some of them are, but that pales in comparison to the list that could be generated of the fake news stories put out by the Leftwing News Media, which would number in the thousands. Yeah, let’s compare lists. The MSM is the source of nearly all the fake news stories out there.
Seems to me,TA above, our MSM will have more difficulty pointing to true news amongst their product.
Fake News is a spectacular self inflicted wound and we need to rub the salt in.
Climategate exposed the mendacity of our “Press” for all to see.In the climate discussion.
Trumps campaign allowed the Presstitutes to show all.
Probably the same percentage who vote Liberal(In Canada) trust their broadcast news.
Press credibility is one with virginity.
The right can raise the issue, but the left has set itself up as the arbitrator of what is and isn’t fake.
When number 2 beats number 3 but can only do so by a field goal in double overtime, that says to me that the rankings are about right. It makes no sense for Michigan to have fallen two places.
That was supposed to be a response to TA in the comment thread above this one.
As I have written elsewhere: Obama did not come to praise Castro, nor bury him, but hear the sound of his own voice.
Obama not only likes to hear his own voice, he likes to talk about himself a lot, too. Do you think he is a little self-centered?
I think that Castro is one world leader that deserves to have Obama speak at his funeral.
It would be an eulogy full of “I, Me, My”s.
Certainly one of his greatest achievements was to have sugar rationing in a land that sugar cane is a major crop.
I wonder what part of “denial of fundamental human rights” do progressives not understand?
It could be they do understand and like the idea of denying fundamental rights to people who disagree with them. Like in Climate science, I am sure Gavin from NASA would love throwing the climate “deniers” into the gulag for crimes against the state..
That’s Obama’s way of not criticizing Castro, Dean.
That Ohio State-Michigan football game was a heck of a game! 🙂
I feel sorry for the worms, bacteria and maggots that will have to consume the rotting flesh of this tyrant.
He’s being cremated. Worms and etc. are safe.
Of course: if the list below
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
is correct, so Fidel Castro indeed belongs to these dictators who let many people die.
30,000!
But Worall’s title lets you think Castro has been comparable with Mao Zedong or Hitler or Stalin. Even with Saddam Hussein you couldn’t manage to compare him without tremendously diminishing what Hussein did!
Bindidon
So dictators that can take your life with no cause should be judge by how many they indiscriminately kill? What number is acceptable?
Yeah, and by that count, Charles Manson must really have been a pretty good guy, right? I mean he didn’t even kill 10 people all told, did he?
He only had population of 11 million to work with. If Cuba was the size of China, he would have killed about 3 million people. Not as much as Mao, I grant you that.
Mao, Hitler and Stalin had a lot more people to work with.
In some ways the US protests against human rights in Cuba are paradoxical. In themselves they are positive and indicative of good government. However the US maintains a detention centre in Cuba where the neither Magna Carta nor US constitution is adhered to. There are prisoners there who have never been charged with any crime and who’s status in unclear. They have been tortured and denied the most basic of human rights.
It’s stuff like this that tends to undermine US concerns for human rights and make it seem hypocritical. A bit like Putin claiming to care about civilian lives while massacring children in Aleppo. The sad thing is that it give Islamists ammunition to use in brainwashing by pointing out the divide between what the US says, and what it actually does.
If these people in Guantanamo are enemy combatants, treat them as such. If they are criminals, prosecute them. But don’t just treat them like inmates in a Stalinist gulag then complain about human rights a mile down the road. Its hypocrisy at its worse.
Typical lefty liar pretending that Guantanamo detaining terrorists caught in the fields of battle are the equivalent of Castro and Che murdering terrorizing, suppressing stealing and censoring their own people and those in other nations.
Think about what you said. Do you really find terrorist on battlefields? Isn’t that sort of missing the point of terrorism?
Gareth
Yes if they are in civilian clothing or hiding behind civilians they are illegal combatants
When you are fighting a terrorist state, like the Taliban, then certainly you find terrorists on battlefields.
Gareth you aren’t worth a cup of warm spit
You are as stuck on stupid as those tools who think the World Trade Center was blown up by preplanted explosives: you’re not worth the trouble.
Typical mendacious Lefty bollocks.
You really haven’t a clue, have you?
Garth
Now you have totally gone of the rails, magma carta and the constitution only apply to citizens. However the Ganeve convention does apply, however it afford ZERO protection to combatants who do not fight in uniform, attack civilians or who hid behind civilians. The convention was designed to civilize war by forcing combatants to adhere to the rules of war, if they did so they were afforded protection and had rights, if they didn’t they have ZERO rights.
Thanks Bob, by the way, there is an ‘e’ in my name. Gareth, not Garth. Old Celtic name!
My point is that human rights are applicable to everyone. I’m a bit of a radical, but I also believe that the Magana Carta and US constitution also have a universal application. I know that horrifies Hunter and Carweazle and seems to upset you Bob, but I am not talking about rules of war or the Geneva convention.
Castro was not at war with the people he executed. They posed no risk to him.
The US is not at war with the people in Guantanamo bay ( If they are, they are subject to Geneva) so these people should be treated according to the law of the country they are detained in.
Habeas Corpus may seem like a fiddly detail to be ignored when convenient, but that is exactly what Castro did.
If contravening these things is seen as criminal with regard to socialist Dictators, surely the same rule should apply to the US? Or are there special rules in place applicable only to non US governments?
Gareth–as to the status of the prisoners at Guantanamo as per the Geneva Convention. There are several versions of the convention, with one version from the 1980’s that the US never ratified that gives much higher status to guerillas. The older version that the US did sign on to classifies them as “unlawful combatantants” subject to summary execution. The other problem is that the US has not formally declared war since WWII, but the Congressional authorization for the use of millitary force is not readily distinguishable from a declaration of war, unless one wishes to lawyer the issue.
Tom Halla.
I am not discussing the Geneva convention. I do not think t has any bearing on the illegal imprisonment of individuals in Guantanamo bay because as far as I can see, they are not prisoners of war, but others have argued from a perspective of the GC and I respect that. See my post above to various posters.
I’ll repeat this as it seems to have got lost.
The US constitution states that:
“The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”
Amnesty International state that:
“The United States’ detention facilities at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have become emblematic of the gross human rights abuses perpetrated by the U.S. government in the name of terrorism.
At Guantánamo, the U.S. government seek to hold detainees in a place neither U.S. nor international law applied.
But no one can be held outside of the law.”
All people have the right to a fair trial and the right to be free from arbitrary detention. These are rights that are guaranteed under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the U.S. ratified in
1992.
It is difficult to accept criticism of the human rights failings of a regime on an Island which you share, when you are also contravening human rights in a blatant manner. I wonder if anyone recalls how they felt when Iran detained Americans without charge or trial after invading their embassy?
If it makes me a stupid lefty due to defending human rights, Magna Carta and the US constitution, I can live with that.
p.s. Usar and Hunter. You look like you would have settled in well with Castro judging by your responses to my posts. I’m just glad you and your boys don’t have the opportunity to take me outside for “re-education” 🙂
If they are, they are subject to Geneva…
Then just execute them…because that’s what it says
Gareth
The law is the law it doesn’t matter what you want it to be or what you believe. You miss the point of the Genieva Convention, it is to protect the rights of the innocent in times of war from the warring parties. Your advocation for the rights of those who ignore these rules risk innocent non-combatants every where.
Bob Boder, when will you speel the Ganymede Convention correctly? 😉
Michael
Sorry sydlexai is emssing ithw my pselling again, I hate space aliens anyway
“The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”
The United States’ detention facilities at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have become emblematic of the gross human rights abuses perpetrated by the U.S. government in the name of terrorism.
At Guantánamo, the U.S. government sought to hold detainees in a place neither U.S. nor international law applied.
But no one can be held outside of the law.
All people have the right to a fair trial and the right to be free from arbitrary detention. These are rights that are guaranteed under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the U.S. ratified in
1992.
Bob I suggest you read the 14th amendment, the constitution does not “only apply to citizens”:
“Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
Geneva convention rules don’t apply to terrorists in Guantanamo.Treating those people correctly would involve executing them on the spot. There are absolutely no hypocrisy here.
Bit of info for you to consider Udar
“The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.” (US constitution)
Amnesty International state that :
The United States’ detention facilities at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have become emblematic of the gross human rights abuses perpetrated by the U.S. government in the name of terrorism.
At Guantánamo, the U.S. government seekt to hold detainees in a place neither U.S. nor international law applied.
But no one can be held outside of the law. Just because they in Cuba does not negate legal procedures.
In addition,
All people have the right to a fair trial and the right to be free from arbitrary detention. These are rights that are guaranteed under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the U.S. ratified in
1992.
If the US ignores these points, it is not in any position to criticise Dictators who do the same.
Gareth, what you are argueing is that war should be covered under civil due process for crimes. What I argued was that the salafists in Al Queda declared and made war on the US, and the US declared war on them (an authorization for the use of millitary force is a bloody declaration of war to anyone but a leftist or the Guantanamo prisoners defense lawyers). That theme, that terrorism should be treated as an ordinary criminal offense, was expounde by George Soros, among others, in 2001-2. A rather silly anti-war theme.
The Geneva convention is irrelevant in this case. It’s a bit like arguing whether the Iranian hostages in the 80s were subject to it.
I am arguing for human rights and fundamental law. I’ve tried posting more detailed rationales but they are not being published for some reason.
No-one should be indefinitely detained without charge, prosecution of reason for the imprisonment.
The US constitutions states that:
“The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”
Amnesty international also say:
The United States’ detention facilities at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have become emblematic of the gross human rights abuses perpetrated by the U.S. government in the name of terrorism.
At Guantánamo, the U.S. government sought to hold detainees in a place neither U.S. nor international law applied.
But no one can be held outside of the law.
All people have the right to a fair trial and the right to be free from arbitrary detention. These are rights that are guaranteed under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the U.S. ratified in
1992.
Gareth
Again you miss the point! They specifically lose all rights because they behave in an uncivilized manor, to give them rights removes the deterrent and destroys the purpose of the law. It’s no different then pulling a gun on a soldier and point it at them at that point your rights cease and you are subject to summary action.
In any civil situation I would on your side.
Garteh, you quote from Constitution: The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
Well, you do understand that constitution does not apply to enemy troops fought outside of the USA? And inside of the USA, it does provide for suspension of habeas corpus, so no problem there as well. Unless you believe that US constitution applies to everyone everywhere in the world, that is.
As far as Amnesty International goes, I didn’t know their opinion was the law of any kind. They think that we abusing terrorist’s rights by keeping them in jail without charge or trial. Well, I have news for them (and you) – the Geneva Convention allows for detention while hostilities taking place. And I do not remember hostilities being over, so they can legally rot in there for as long as islam wages jihad on us. And convention on Human rights have same limitations – it doesn’t apply to combatants at war.
But according to any conventions and agreements, those terrorists, who are not soldiers in uniform, could have been summarily executed, and it would be perfectly legal and just.
Quick question for you all who support the detainment of people captured during the Afghanistan invasion. I’m told they are illegal combatants who have no rights because they were not fighting in uniform. How do you know that? They have never faced legal process involving a trial where witnesses or evidence can be examined. I also don’t accept that anyone ever loses the most basis of human rights. The writers of the Constitutions agreed and felt that the points they were making were applicable to all of humanity.
If the Iranians tortured and imprisoned US citizens for life in a grim prison how would you feel? Especially if these were US citizens found in Afghanistan not in uniform. Allegations are not a foundation for harsh penalties. There has to be due process of law and justice. I don’t doubt that most of these people are nasty types who deserve all they get, but maybe, just maybe not all. And we will never know that unless there is some process of law involving a trial to establish the facts. This is what Nuremberg was about, even though
those Nazis richly deserved summary execution. We would never accept other countries treating our citizens in this way, and we should set an example if we claim to be in the right.
Gareth Phillips: “I’m told they are illegal combatants who have no rights because they were not fighting in uniform. How do you know that?”
Because I know some of the people who captured them.
Some of us get our information from the REAL WORLD Gareth, not from the bleeding heart SJWs of the Guardian and the BBC.
Hi Udar, I seem to be having problems posting again, apologies if this is duplicated.
Quick question for you all who support the detainment of people captured during the Afghanistan invasion. I’m told they are illegal combatants who have no rights because they were not fighting in uniform. How do you know that? They have never faced legal process involving a trial where witnesses or evidence can be examined. I also don’t accept that anyone ever loses the most basis of human rights. The writers of the Constitutions agreed and felt that the points they were making were applicable to all of humanity.
If the Iranians tortured and imprisoned US citizens for life in a grim prison how would you feel? Especially if these were US citizens found in Afghanistan not in uniform. Allegations are not a foundation for harsh penalties. There has to be due process of law and justice. I don’t doubt that most of these people are nasty types who deserve all they get, but maybe, just maybe not all. And we will never know that unless there is some process of law involving a trial to establish the facts. This is what Nuremberg was about, even though
those Nazis richly deserved summary execution. We would never accept other countries treating our citizens in this way, and we should set an example if we claim to be in the right.
Gareth, you are still trying to provide due criminal process in a war. As it is a different situation, any notion of due process is not relevant.
US national and constitutional law, as well as international law, recognize the difference, and provide different rules.
The notion that an enemy combatant should be provided a fair trial before he is shot is manifestly silly, even if one faction on the left has been pushing that theme for years.
Gareth Phillips
November 28, 2016 at 2:50 am ….
“I also don’t accept that anyone ever loses the most basis (basic?) of human rights. “…
No Gareth, when they commit atrocities upon innocent women and children, they become creatures that are lower than the worst animal. They have lost their right to be treated as a Human !
Gareth,
While Founders did say that all men are created equal, the constitutional rights and protections are only reserved for USA, not for the rest of the world, which I think should be pretty obvious.
As far treatment of enemy combatants – you missing the point. Rules of war allow detention until hostilities end. Which is what is happening here. Summary executions, while legal in case of those terrorists, are not being proposed or discussed. They are being detained. Get back to me after we are not at war with violent jihad as to why they still in detention, if they still are.
And comparing conditions at Guantanamo with what Iranians or other terrorist-supporting nation would do to our people is just silly. I don’t know what is your definition of mistreatment is, but those people get much better treatment that they deserve.
I think you make a fair point Udar in saying that the US is still at war ( as indeed many countries are ) with these violent Jihadis, which tends to justify the detainment of combatants until the war is over. But I refer back to my original point, how do we know they are combatants? They could have been non combatants of one sort or another, mistakes have been made. That it why it is vital to have legal process wherever people are detained. POWs don’t have access to this process I agree, but people who state clearly that they are not combatants and never have been, should have their cases heard.
With ref to treatment, hopefully you are right and they are treated in a civilised manner. But it is acknowledged by all sides that torture has been used in the past, and the President elect states that he would have no problems in using it again in the future.
The US is a powerful nation that leads the world in the struggle for human rights. As a result it has to show the world it also applies those rules to itself as well as others. Mr.Trumps call for Human rights to be improved in Cuba and political prisoners released from detention will fall on deaf ears if the US refuses to follow the same principle in Guantanamo bay. If they are POWs, treat them as such, if they are criminals, put them on trial. Let justice be seen to be done as well as done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
Gareth, you say how do we know they are combatants? They could have been non combatants of one sort or another, mistakes have been made
Military decides what they need to do, and there are no mechanism for appeals. Like it or not, it’s what it is. This is war and it’s not pretty. We either trust our military and intelligent communities or not. But giving those people our constitutional rights is not a solution.
Coming back to treatment – it doesn’t matter. Whatever treatment is, our enemies will always say it’s bad. I see no reason to try to bend over backwards for someone who doesn’t negotiates in good faith. Do you seriously think that if we let them all go and close Guantanamo it would have made a slightest difference in Castro’s treatment of its dissidents? Before you say anything, consider that we only put terrorists in there in 2001, and Castro was murdering and jailing Cuban’s for 30 years before that.
I must confess Udar that I would prefer to be held in Gitmo than in one of Castro’s establishments. I used to protest against Castro as a student, I thought he was an unsavoury character to say the least, and his record on human rights was appalling. The thing I think we always have to bear in mind is that how we treat our enemies, is the way our forces or civilians may be treated in future. We may be in a situation where aid workers are being held without trial, and get a response from some Mullah or other to the effect that they have been deemed spies or been guilty of sabotage and that is that. We have to trust the word of that countries military or government. If we protest, they may point at Gitmo and say , If it is ok there, it should be fine here.
Hopefully that all not happen. But I believe we may be entering a dark time in human history, and interesting times may be ahead.
Gareth, you say We may be in a situation where aid workers are being held without trial, and get a response from some Mullah or other to the effect that they have been deemed spies or been guilty of sabotage and that is that.
They do that anyway already. That is my point. No matter what we do, no matter how well we treat those people, they do not reciprocate. They always find an excuse to justify what they doing. It goes all the way to Barbary Wars, where the reason muslim countries attacked, robbed, killed and enslaved American sailors was simply because they could.
If we turn this conversation to Castro, you might notice that despite all this “thawing” of relationship between USA and Cuba, they have not changed their behavior one bit, in fact they insist of behaving just like they did for the last 50+ years. I guess we can agree to disagree, but in my opinion giving reprieve to despots only emboldens them.
“Gareth you aren’t worth a cup of warm spit
You are as stuck on stupid as those tools who think the World Trade Center was blown up by preplanted explosives: you’re not worth the trouble.”
Gosh Hunter, with responses like that to anyone who opinion differs from your own, there is a place for you in governments like that of Castro and Pinochet ! These authoritarian government just love psychopaths who are prepared to attack anyone who differs ever so slightly from the accepted truth. Go for it, you will fit right in!
ps I think the World Trade Centre was destroyed by evil people from the Middle East to who could not tolerate any dissent from what they thought was true. Ring any bells?
They are being treated like prisoners of war. In fact they are treated better than most prisoners of war.
This may be worth a read, despite its lurid headline . It kind of shows how the US is in many ways as trapped as the prisoners in Gitmo, and how ordinary military staff do their best when they are on a hiding to nothing.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/terror-torture-and-torpor-inside-guantanamo-bay-with-the-forever-prisoners-20141211-125m1z.html
So sad about Fidel’s passing… sad it didn’t happen sixty years ago.
Castro: No moriré hasta que Estados Unidos sea destruido!
*Trump elected president*
Castro: Adiós camaradas…
Castro really was worse than we thought! Totally corrupt! There’s still one more Castro to go… and I mean go!
Trudeau joins the other stalwarts of the left in their enthusiastic appreciation of the power grabbing value of AGW. Whether overtly brutal dictators like Castro or velvet gloved power mongers like Trudeau, they are united In their taste for totalitarian government. For our own good, of course. Let’s see how it plays when Trump is through gutting it.
The left are so seriously f’d up in the head it’s pathetic. Good grief.
It is time for the human race to kick out all of the dictators. Every last one of them.
And their defenders