The Cosmic Problem With Rays

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Normal carbon has six neutrons and six protons, for an atomic weight of twelve. However, there is a slightly different form of carbon which has two extra neutrons. That form of carbon, called carbon-14 or “14C”, has an atomic weight of fourteen. It is known to be formed by the interaction of high-energy cosmic rays with the atmosphere.

Therefore, the production of the carbon isotope 14C goes up and down with the number of cosmic rays.

Thus, other things being equal, the production of 14C could be a proxy for how many cosmic rays are passing through the atmosphere. And the number of cosmic rays striking the earth is regulated by a combination of the magnetic fields of the earth and the sun. When the combined magnetic field is strong, it deflects the cosmic rays away from the earth. When it is weak, more cosmic rays strike the earth.

So let me start, as I prefer to do, with the largest, longest view of the underlying raw data. In this case it is something called the “INTCAL13 Calibration Curve”. It is a record of historical variations in the levels of the carbon isotope 14C.

intcal13-calibration-regularFigure 1. INTCAL13 calibration curve. The interval between values is five years in the recent part of the record (since 11950 BC). In the middle part of the record, from 23050 BC to 11950 BC values are ten years apart. And in the earliest part, from the beginning to 23050 BC, values are 20 years apart.

The large variations in the curve are said to be from slow changes in the earth’s own geomagnetic field over the millennia. However, our knowledge of geomagnetism millennia ago is not of the finest … given that, it does seem like a possible explanation.

Keep that INTCAL13 calibration curve in mind for a moment, and let me move on to discuss a guest post over at Judith Curry’s often-excellent website, by someone named “Javier”. The post is all about solar cycles. And there’s a new post on WUWT discussing Javier’s solar cycles. These are solar cycles that are two thousand four hundred years long, to be exact. How do they know that? Well, here’s Javier’s money graph.

javier-2400-year-oscillationFigure 2. Javier’s graph showing a claimed 2400-year cycle in the 14C record, which in turn is claimed to be a solar cycle.

So the obvious question is … how on earth did they get from the curve shown in Figure 1 to the curve shown in Figure 2? Javier says it is done by “removal of the long-term trend” … but how was that done? I went to the cited work of Clilverd et al.  to find out the answer.

First, because the sun and the cosmic rays are negatively correlated, they flip the 14C record over as shown in Figure 3. In this orientation, warmer is at the top of the chart and cooler is at the bottom. That’s just a graphic convenience, no problem.

intcal13-calibration-invertedFigure 3. Inverted INTCAL13 calibration curve.

Then they throw away more than three-quarters of the data, leaving only the chunk since 9600 BC as shown in Figure 4.

intcal13-calibration-inverted-recent

Figure 4. Inverted INTCAL13 calibration curve since 9,600 BC.

Following that, they fit a linear trend to the data, and detrend it. Then they subtract out a purported 7,000 year signal of unknown origin. Figure 5 below from Clilverd et al. illustrates the procedure. Note that the upper panel of Figure 5 matches my Figure 4.

cliverd-figure-1-delta-14-cFigure 5. Figure 1 of Clilverd et al.

I note in passing that although Javier asserts a “correct” cycle length of 2400 years, Clilverd shows a 2300 year cycle. I guess that’s why Javier’s version is “adapted from” … but I digress.

Let me recapitulate the bidding. To get from the inverted 14C record shown in Figure 3 to the record used by Clilverd et al, they have

  • thrown away three-quarters of the data, 
  • removed a purported linear trend of unknown origin from the remainder, 
  • subtracted a 7000-year cycle of unknown origin , and 
  • ASSERTED that the remainder represents solar variations with an underlying 2,300 year period …

I suspect that y’all can see the problems in each and every step of that process. First and foremost, why throw away three-quarters of the data? That alone disqualifies the study in my mind. But let us continue listing the difficulties:

Where did the claimed linear trend come from? What justifies removing it? Why use an exactly 7,000 year cycle, and where did it come from? How does one diagnose a 7.000 year cycle when you only have about 12,000 years of data, not even two full cycles? How do they know that the 7,000 year cycle is NOT solar-related and the 2,400 year cycle IS solar-related?

And finally, what evidence do we have that the remainder has anything to do with the sun?

But wait, as they say on the TV ads, there’s more. Let’s set the work of Javier aside entirely and return to the question of cosmic rays, which Javier does not discuss. Remember that the relationship between cosmic rays and the climate is supposed to work as follows:

In times when there are more cosmic rays, the rays cause more cloud nuclei to form. As a result more clouds form (and in addition, more 14C forms) and the world is colder. But in times when there are less cosmic rays (indicated by less 14C), there are less clouds, and thus the world ends up warmer.

And according to that theory, people claim that the final dip in the 2400-year cycle seen in Figures 2 & 5 is the cause of the cold times around the Little Ice Age. Back then it was a couple of degrees cooler than at present. If that theory is correct, this means that a change in ∆14C of about 10 per mil reflects a change in cosmic rays that is enough to cause a global temperature change of 2°C.

Now that all sounds good until you take another look at Figure 3. Let me replot it, and this time I’ll include the 10 per mil change in ∆14C, and hence in cosmic rays, rumored to be responsible for the Little Ice Age.

intcal13-inverted-plus-liaFigure 6. Inverted INTCAL13 calibration curve. Gray lines show the variation in ∆14C of 10 per mil claimed to be from cosmic rays and said to be responsible for the 2° cooling during Little Ice Age. The large swings are said to be due to changes in the strength of the geomagnetic field.

I reckon you folks can see the difficulty … according to this, about twenty thousand years ago it should have been about 100°C colder than today …

Now, about the only way out of this dilemma is to say that the peak-to-peak swing of about 500 per mil in ∆14C is from some kind of non-cosmic ray variations. You know, like the claimed 7,000 year cycle that was removed in Figure 5 that was ascribed to … hang on, I want to get this right … OK, they said it was from “changes within the carbon system itself”.

(Let me say that I like that particular bit of bafflegab a lot, “changes within the system itself”. Seems like that would cover a host of unpleasant variations in any dataset you might find … but again I digress.)

So to recap: IF the claims are true that the changes in ∆14C shown in Figure 6 reflect changes in cosmic rays and that the changes in cosmic rays result in the claimed changes in temperature, then twenty thousand years ago the earth should have been 100°C cooler. Even if I’m wrong by 100%, it is still saying that it was 50°C cooler back then … didn’t happen.

Since that is not possible, then it seems we must assume that “changes within the system itself” are causing the huge swings in ∆14C.

But if that is the case, then it is more than possible that these unknown changes within the system are also responsible for the smaller swings currently ascribed to variations in cosmic rays.

Anyhow, that’s my cosmic problem with rays. Here I have no problems. It’s two AM, I’m a night owl. There’s been rain for three days, wonderful rain. And there’s still rain in the area, a small cell passing north of us. But the wind has shifted. It was blowing strongly from the south or southwest for the last three days. Now the wind is just a mild breeze, and from the west. There are big gaps in the clouds, and the moon, aah, for the first time in a while the moon is finally showing its face. I can hear the distant hungry grumbling of the surf as it nibbles on the ribs of the coastline some six miles (ten km) away … a good night to be alive here in the redwood forest, with the giant trees standing stark and clear in the pale wash of moonlight, and silvered cumulus drifting across the sky.

Best to everyone,

w.

My Usual Request: Misunderstandings are the bane of the web. Please further understanding by quoting the exact words that you disagree with. That is the only way that we can all be clear about the exact nature of what you object to.

My Other Request: Bald statements that someone doesn’t know what they are doing, even if true, are of little use to anyone. If you think someone is using a wrong method or a wrong dataset, please further everyone’s understanding by demonstrating the right method or by linking to the right dataset.

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October 17, 2016 2:46 am

Even with the statistical manipulations, there are major oopsies in tracking trends at ~9000 and ~3000 years.

george e. smith
Reply to  Tom Halla
October 17, 2016 8:29 pm

So what is the origin of that 14C curve that goes back 50,000 years. It seems to me that 50.000 years is about the limit of the ability to radiocarbon date anything.
But how do they get back beyond around 5-6,000 years which is the limit for the bristlecone pine tree ring calibration capability.
You can radiocarbon date individually each ring of a tree, and obtain believable data on 14 C over time for about 5,000-5500 years.
So where does that other 45,000 years of older data come from.
Now I have some pieces of Kauri wood that are 45,000 years old. But they have been dead for probably 42-43 of those millennia.
But I tend to agree with what I think Willis is saying.
Basically baloney on these 2300 and 2400 year solar cycles. And yes it even looks like a lousy fit to me.
G

October 17, 2016 2:52 am

I don’t think you can just look at one thing when it comes to describing climate. Cosmic rays are part of the equation, not the entire statement. Further, our understanding of the role of cosmic rays is far from complete.

steveta_uk
October 17, 2016 3:02 am

I think they may have misunderstood what the “INTCAL13 Calibration Curve” is for.
It appears from my (brief) research that this is the curve used to change from an apparent age from carbon dating assuming linear values to the actual age. I don’t see how this can be used for the purposes given here.

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 4:45 am

Good work Willis, I was sure you’d be onto this one.
Yes it seems that the curve is not applicable in the way it was used. Each carbon age is based on an exponential decay from the presumed integration by the living system ( thee, plant, whatever ). The correction curve reflects the non constant amount of C14 generation over time.
This curve is questionable in itself and more so the further back.
So the curve at any point exp decay of 14C at that time, plus the integral of decay of any 14C created since. Working this backwards starts to sound at a lot like working out a temperature history from borehole temperature data drilled today. The result depends more upon your favourite assumptions and the model you use than anything else.
How you reconvert that to get 14C production as a time series needs a bit of thought but I’m fairly sure that detrending is not the answer. I’m not sure what the answer is but I’m fairly sure it’s not Sam Sausage.
It’s a while since I read up on this but my recollection was that there’s a point about half way up that curve , circa 15ka BP where it all gets very fluffy and speculative.
Recent record is pretty good since it can be corroborated by dendrochronology, which actually means the study of time by trees , not the study of temperature. 😉
dendrochronology is pretty exact. That goes back about 11ka and is largely based on our favourite thermometer: the bristle-cone pine.
http://www.radiocarbon.com/tree-ring-calibration.htm

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 4:47 am

PS a lot of that linear slope is probably due to not using the correct half-life : for historical reasons.

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 5:11 am

The interesting thing about that curve is that if you have a d14C measurement of 400 per mil you can choose between 14ka and 43ka !
If you are between 400 and 550 per mil , you can chose between about 5 different dating results.
I’m starting to recall why I don’t believe carbon dates beyond 15ka.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 10:26 am

… and if you look at the detailed “calibration” curves (http://www.radiocarbon.org/IntCal13%20files/intcal13.pdf ) you see that the data quality beyond 10’000 years is getting quite poor.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 7:06 pm

In this orientation, warmer is at the top of the chart and cooler is at the bottom. That’s just a graphic convenience, no problem.

“Warmer” and “cooler”? The graph has nothing to do with temperature.

I reckon you folks can see the difficulty … according to this, about twenty thousand years ago it should have been about 100°C colder than today

Same comment. I’ll also note that it was colder 20,000 years ago, we were just coming out of the last glaciation. Compare the graph here with the 110k and 120k graphs on the paleoclimate page. There seems to be some correlation.

george e. smith
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 8:31 pm

But HOW do they get the TRUE age of those carbon samples back earlier than 5500 YA from BCP trees.
G

Charles Nelson
October 17, 2016 3:15 am

‘could be a proxy’….

ren
October 17, 2016 3:17 am

The first part of winter 2008-2009 has been characterized
by a stable and cold polar vortex which allowed
the persistent formation of PSC particles. In
mid-January of 2009, however, the most intense sudden
stratospheric warming (SSW) ever observed occurred
[Manney et al. 2009, Di Biagio et al. 2010].
Lidar and GBMS measurements at Thule observed
the occurrence of the major SSW, sampling air inside
the polar vortex at first and following the propagation
of the SSW down to the lower stratosphere afterwards.
The contour plots in Figures 14, 15, and 16 show the
changes of the atmospheric chemical composition over
Thule and temperature associated with the SSW. Figure
14 shows a sudden increase in N2O mixing ratio
(mr) which occurred on January 24 at around 35 km altitude
and over the whole stratosphere between days
26 and 28. At higher levels, the vortex splitting and the
vortex edge transit over Thule was marked by a rapid
decrease in CO mr. CO data (not shown) indicate that
in the upper stratosphere (45-50 km) the vortex broke
up over Thule on January 19-20.
Concurrently, as warm, O3-rich air from outside
the vortex moved over Thule during the SSW, the GBMS
measured an increase in O3 mr in the upper stratosphere
which reached a peak of ~8 ppmv at 35 km (Figure
15). The O3 concentration in the lower stratosphere
shows a clear sign of the passage of the vortex edge
over Thule on January 26, in agreement with the N2O
concentration displayed in Figure 14, but there are signs
of out-vortex air intrusions also a few days earlier. In
Figure 16 lidar temperatures show a sudden increase on
late January 22. However, the warming in the upper
stratosphere started a few days earlier, as shown by the
superimposed Aura MLS temperatures, and lidar measurements
missed the onset of the SSW due to instrumental
upgrades between January 16 and 22. The
maximum physical temperature of 289 K was recorded
by lidar near 40 km on January 22. In the following
days, the warming progressed downward reaching
about 15 km altitude on January 29, when the temperature
profile became nearly isothermal, particularly in
the altitude layer between 15 and 45 km.
http://www.earth-prints.org/bitstream/2122/9123/1/2014ann_geoph_muscari.pdf
The level of neutrons in Oulu in January 2009.
http://cosmicrays.oulu.fi/webform/query.cgi?startday=01&startmonth=01&startyear=2009&starttime=00%3A00&endday=01&endmonth=02&endyear=2009&endtime=00%3A00&resolution=Automatic+choice&picture=on

ren
Reply to  ren
October 17, 2016 9:35 am

GCR breaks O2 in the upper atmosphere. This gives rise to N2O, which (as O3) radiates in the infrared.

Robert of Ottawa
October 17, 2016 3:18 am

This article is a moral warning about time series analysis.

Leonard Lane
Reply to  Robert of Ottawa
October 18, 2016 11:40 am

Robert, I think it is more a moral lesson about cherry picking data. Why throw away most of the “data”?

Richard111
October 17, 2016 3:25 am

Thanks Willis and Anthony. A very interesting read.

RCS
October 17, 2016 3:28 am

I think that you would get similar results using a high pass filter. The object is to expose coherence between cosmic rays and C14. This wouldn’t give the entire relationship.

ClimateOtter
October 17, 2016 3:29 am

We need a T.A.R.D.I.S. to get the proper history. Grant time!
(In a mood. Sorry)

Marcus
October 17, 2016 3:40 am

Willis, as to your 100 degrees colder comment, wouldn’t the fact there is a finite area that clouds can cover limit the amount that the temperature can drop ? I agree with the rest of the post though..thanx

October 17, 2016 3:47 am

Another reason why the cosmic ray hypothesis of climate change seems unlikely.
Hence my preference for the idea that solar effects act upon the ozone creation / destruction process in the stratosphere differently above equator and poles.
The consequence is a change in the gradient of tropopause height between equator and poles so as to allow changes in jet stream behaviour which leads to cloudiness / albedo changes.

October 17, 2016 4:12 am

Willis, I would like to use this as an example of how to deconstruct research and apply critical thinking skills in th high school chemistry and physics I teach. Would you give permission to reprint and share?

Reply to  darrowfarms
October 17, 2016 5:22 am

Your students aren’t going to learn much from such awful example. Why don’t you read what is being criticized to see if anything is being deconstructed? Is that how you teach your students, to accept one side without reading the other?

Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 10:22 am

I read your stuff.
Like I said.
Junk.
Start with the basics.
Do a simple post.
Show (ATTACH) all your data
show ( ATTACH) all your code.
Demonstrate how you find the cycle you claim.
you cant
you wont
Why should you show us your data when all we want to do is find mistakes.
Sound familair..?
Sorry bud, Willis has been really really consistent in the application of his skepticism.
One chart.. just produce Figure 2 from above ( citing your figure 1 )
Produce that ONE CHART from scratch.. Dont cut and paste shit… Just produce ONE CHART from
scratch.
FROM SCRATCH.
That means.
1. get the raw data. POST IT
2. Document Via CODE how you get from the raw data to the plotted data
ONE CHART
you cant
you wont.
Willis wins.

Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 1:36 pm

Steven,
Everything I said in that article has been published in the scientific literature and was adequately cited. If you have a problem finding the source for anything, just ask.
That you consider it junk is actually encouraging as you seem to be so wrong about what you believe in climate science. I would be very worried and checking everything again if you were endorsing it. Same with Willis regarding anything solar. He is terribly biased. But it seems from his comments that Willis didn’t bother to read my article. That’s a winner for you, you see?

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 1:42 pm

As you are not darrowfarms, that comment wasn’t directed to you. For you I have a question, Willis. Did you read my article in its entirety before writing yours? I think people here have the right to know that.

George
October 17, 2016 4:45 am

Looks like total BS to me. Believable to those who desperately want to believe.

October 17, 2016 4:46 am

What was the variation of the target gas, CO2, over the time period in question?

Greg Goodman
October 17, 2016 4:52 am

That is the primary natural source. It’s nitrogen atoms ( also weight 14 ) getting blasted by high energy neutrons caused by cosmic rays.

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Greg Goodman
October 17, 2016 5:13 am

Non natural sources are post WWII atmospheric test which roughly doubles 14C before 1963.

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Greg Goodman
October 17, 2016 5:15 am

comment image

ren
October 17, 2016 5:00 am

Differences doses of ionizing radiation in winter and summer, during the solar minimum (1996).
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00830/ylq4i6nd49v3.jpg

John Andrews
Reply to  ren
October 18, 2016 12:53 pm

They might indeed exceed the annual dose. However the risk they run is a reduced risk of cancer and other effects of radiation. Please see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2477708/.

seaice1
October 17, 2016 5:01 am

As requested, the words I disagree with:
“Then they subtract out a purported 7,000 year signal of unknown origin.”
I disagree because it is not of unknown origin, it is referenced to Beer 2000, Long-term indirect indices of solar variability Space Science Reviews, vol 94.
The abstract contains the following
“Comparison of different nuclides (e.g. 10Be and 14C) that are produced in a very similar way but exhibit a completely different geochemical behaviour, allows us to separate production effects from system effects.
The presently available data show cyclic variability ranging from 11-year to millennial time scale periodicities ”
I presume the 7000 year cycle is one of the millennial time scale cycles described in this article, as indicated by the reference.

John Finn
Reply to  seaice1
October 17, 2016 5:23 am

I presume the 7000 year cycle is one of the millennial time scale cycles described in this article, as indicated by the reference.

So what is its origin? We know there’s a trend – we can see it.

John Finn
Reply to  John Finn
October 17, 2016 6:03 am

“We know there’s a trend” should be “We know there’s a “cycle” (and a trend)”

seaice1
Reply to  John Finn
October 17, 2016 6:15 am

“So what is its origin?”
You must go to the original paper to see. That is how science works. Clilverd et al are telling the reader that the source of the 7000 year cycle can be found in Beer 2000. You must go and check to see if you think it reasonable or not. That is why we have references in papers. It is wrong to say it is of unknown origin when the origin is given very clearly in the paper.

John Finn
Reply to  John Finn
October 17, 2016 6:44 am

You must go to the original paper to see. That is how science works.

Ok – but when you wrote that you disagreed with the statement that the 7k year signal was of “unknown origin” I assumed it might have been because you knew the origin. That’s also often the way things work.

seaice1
Reply to  John Finn
October 17, 2016 8:05 am

Yes, John Finn, a slight mix-up between origin for this paper and proper origin. The reason the origin is unknown to Willis is because he didn’t look it up. I don’t think that counts as “unknown”. It is, alas, also unknown to me because I have not looked it up 🙂

seaice1
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 17, 2016 3:16 pm

Clilverd et al said they got it from Beer 2000. There are two possible interpretations for “origin of the cycle” 1) the physical basis for the cycle and 2) where Clilvert et al got it from. We can recognise tides without knowing the theory of gravity. Yet if someone in ancient history published tide tables we would not dismiss them because of the unknown physical basis for the tides. They are observed to exist. So you could possibly mean that the cycle is real and has justifiable data to support it, but that the physical basis is not known.
Some more specific words “How does one diagnose a 7.000 year cycle when you only have about 12,000 years of data, not even two full cycles? How do they know that the 7,000 year cycle is NOT solar-related and the 2,400 year cycle IS solar-related?”
The answer is that we do not know what data was used to diagnose the 7000 year cycle without reading Beer 2000. You imply that the cycle was diagnosed by Clilvert et al, when it was not. They used a cycle that had been identified by Beer. This suggests to me that you did not intend to convey the idea that the cycle may be real but the physical basis was unknown.
Your use of the words “unknown origin” are either wrong or misleading. From the words I quote in this post I think they are wrong, but hey, maybe you prefer misleading.

John Finn
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
October 18, 2016 2:15 am

blockquote> Clilverd et al said they got it from Beer 2000.
Quite. Chilverd et al also say “possibly caused by changes within the carbon system itself” so, having referenced Beer 2000, they have no more knowledge on the “physical basis” for the cycle than the postman. They, have clearly failed to glean anything concrete from Beer.so we must assume that the 7000 year “cycle” is of unknown origin.
blockquote> The answer is that we do not know what data was used to diagnose the 7000 year cycle without reading Beer 2000.
Well – we do have a bit of a clue from the Beer Abstract.

Comparison of different nuclides (e.g. 10Be and 14C) that are produced in a very similar way but exhibit a completely different geochemical behaviour, allows us to separate production effects from system effects.
The presently available data show cyclic variability ranging from 11-year to millennial time scale periodicities with changing amplitudes, as well as irregularly distributed intervals of very low solar activity (so called minima, e.g. Maunder minimum) lasting typically 100 years

ren
October 17, 2016 5:12 am

Cosmic radiation depending on the geomagnetic field.
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00830/uekext55etmo.jpg

Reply to  ren
October 17, 2016 10:14 pm

Just an idiot-level question here: cosmic rays consist of electrons, protons, a range of other nuclei, small amounts of antimatter, gamma rays, and dear knows what. Do all these things vary in exactly the same way? That is, is “cosmic ray intensity” really one thing that can be represented well by a single number? And another idiot-level question: the error range on the cosmic ray intensity line in ren’s graph is awfully narrow much of the time; do we *really* know it that well?

Paul Westhaver
October 17, 2016 5:15 am

If I recall properly, some years back (when I was a nuclear engineer) I took an interest in Carbon -14. I stumbled on a calibration curve, but I am not sure of the source. It had to do with dating of organic matter. The basis of C-14 dating makes a pretty big assumption in relation to the concentration of C-14 in the atmosphere.
If you have a decaying radioactive sample and you want to know it’s inception date, you must determine the present concentration of C-14, (know the half-life of C-14) and know the concentration of the C-14 when the sample was created. Then the age is a simple calculation.
Variations in the C-14 atmospheric concentration perturb the accuracy of the C-14 dating method so proxy calibration methods must be used to establish the basis of C-14 concentration in time. So the accuracy of C-14 is reliant on less reliable data which constitutes the calibration.
I don’t believe there is yet a remedy for this conundrum. It has been a while since I looked into it but I don’t believe the C-14 calibration curve is all that reliable. Correct me if I am wrong if you please.

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Paul Westhaver
October 17, 2016 5:24 am

I think up to 11ka is fairly good because of dendro cross-ref after that it gets speculative.
There are alternative radio datings but they are just as loose or worse.
Javier may have been right to chuck out older data in fact but I don’t recall him giving a reason. Also the detrend may be merited is the slope is to correct for the historical , incorrect half-life. Also in that case it should be direct calculation not a “detrend” over some arbitrary bit of the data.
Right for the wrong reason?
The circa 7ka “cycle” seems like it may run further back if the data can be trusted. That is the most obvious signal which needs explaining , not chucking out.

MarkW
Reply to  Paul Westhaver
October 17, 2016 6:35 am

What you do is find a sample with a well known age, and measure the ratio of C-14 in it, and work backwards from there.

tty
Reply to  MarkW
October 17, 2016 7:26 am

No, you calibrate with wood from tree-rings which have an exactly known age. That goes back to about 10,000 BC. Beyond that the calibration curve is based on speleothems and sediments and is decidedly shaky. Which is probably the reason they “discarded three quarters of the data”.

Paul Westhaver
Reply to  MarkW
October 17, 2016 7:52 am

tty, That is my understanding. Going back farther is slightly better than speculation.

Reply to  MarkW
October 17, 2016 1:25 pm

But how good are the dendrochronologies? I recall that there are significant problems with autocorrelation mistie potentials? I am under the impression that any particular 100 year tree-ring interval can usually be matched to a half dozen episodes in the span of 1000 years. It is a non-unique result with significant probabilities for more than one possible match. So it helps to have corroborating evidence to choose the right period. How good is the corroborating evidence?
The way I was told the story of C14 calibration (some 40 years ago), when C14-dating in its infancy, the researchers went to Egyptologists, as them for samples of wood with a known date. The first results were hundreds of years off the Chronologies. Hence the need for a calibration curve to adjust for changes in atmospheric C14 in the past. But it all hinged on the Egyptologists having the correct dates in the first place. Even today there is disagreement in absolute ages by as much as 10% (400 years in 4000). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology
Without doubt, Egyptian Chronologies are aided by C14 dating today. But are we dealing with floating benchmarks? Science A calibrating off of Science B and Science B checking themselves with Science A?
It reminds me of the old story of the clock shop in a town with a factory. The Clock Shop had all it’s clocks on the wall running and showing the same time. A fellow comes into the shop admiring the different clocks and appreciating they all chimed the hour at the same time. The fellow asked the owner how it was he was able to set all his clocks to the correct time. The owner say, “I listen to the factory whistle for the end of shift.” The fellow paused and said, “I am the one who blows the whistle… And I set my watch from your store.”

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
October 17, 2016 2:03 pm

tty: How exactly does you comment differ from what I wrote?

Duster
Reply to  Paul Westhaver
October 17, 2016 6:19 pm

C-14 calibration is mostly done using dendrochronogical “direct” meaasures. InterCal13 also uses other proxies including speleothems. Standard radiocarbon dates deliberately do not use the correct halflife. The original estimate was 5,568 years, while the current accepted estimate is about 5,730 years (there are also estimated errors for each estimate). So, the “first” calibration is actually converting from the old half life to the current accepted one. The retention of the older half life is permit simple comparisons between older data and modern data. The second calibration is derived from direct measurements of carbon isotopes in tree rings (the standard set are Bristlecone pine data from the White Mountains). That set reveals that C-14 production and accumulation was never a “neat” process. Currently a continuous series of tree-ring assays including the Bristlecone data, bog oaks and other sources extends over 14,000 years, Corrections from uncalibrated age estimates can have pretty significant effects in interpretations. In fact the initial use of dendro-calibrated data turned Neolithic and Bronze Age European prehistory into a huge problem for theorists. Quite suddenly the oldest stone structures in Europe and the Middle East migrated northward and westward, roosting in Malta and the Orkney Islands. Pretty theories of how societies develop crumbled like wet paper.
Dendro-calibrated ages are actually more accurate. BUT, there are also fractionation and reservoir effects and those are really problems. Various types of plants tend to separate carbon isotopes: C3 (Calivin), C4 (Hatch-Slack), CAMS (Crassulacean acid metabolism) plants, and that can create problems when both C3 and C4 or CAMS plants occur together. Wood is always C3, but many grasses (e.g. maize) and shrubs are either C4 or CAMS and give radically different “ages” for material from precisely the same point in time. Because of this C-13/C-12 ratios are measured to further calibrate an age estimate. Reservoir effects were noted when living aquatic organisms from lakes with limestone basins were found to be apparently over a thousand years old based on the C-14 levels – apparently dead as well.
And, just for grins, there are hemispheric “effects” between the northern and southern hemispheres.

October 17, 2016 5:16 am

by someone named “Javier”

Yes, that someone would be me. Javier is my Christian name. I am a PhD and scientist known by full name to Judith and Anthony. If my desire of privacy bothers you then don’t write about me and don’t even read me.

These are solar cycles that are two thousand four hundred years long, to be exact. How do they know that? Well, here’s Javier’s money graph.

Did you bother to read the article? The Bray cycle, also known as the Hallstatt cycle was discovered in 1968 from a consilience of evidence and has been studied since to this day by many authors. It does not rest on a graph from an article. That is a huge misrepresentation. With a completely different analysis others authors arrive to the same result. As the article cites, Usoskin et al., 2007 did a thorough statistic analysis and found the periodicity to be significant.

Then they throw away more than three-quarters of the data, leaving only the chunk since 9600 BC
First and foremost, why throw away three-quarters of the data? That alone disqualifies the study in my mind.

You haven’t done enough reading on the issue. 14C levels are affected by changes in carbon mass budget. Prior to 11,000 BP there were big changes in sea levels and oceanic CO2 release. As the corrections are not to be trusted prior to that date, most analysis stop at 9000-11700 BP.

And finally, what evidence do we have that the remainder has anything to do with the sun?

Again you need more reading before writing your critics. There is a 400 year period of overlapping between 14C data and solar observations where the changes agree with the theory.
Even Leif Svalgaard recognizes that:

Leif Svalgaard September 16, 2016:
“14C and 10B are indicators of solar variability”

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/09/12/chinese-sunspots/#comment-2301158
So I guess you are alone in the world defending the opposite.

Remember that the relationship between cosmic rays and the climate is supposed to work as follows:
In times when there are more cosmic rays, the rays cause more cloud nuclei to form. As a result more clouds form (and in addition, more 14C forms) and the world is colder.

Again a misrepresentation. You did not read that in my article. That’s an hypothesis that I do not share so everything that you say based on that is irrelevant regarding my article and should not be a part of your critic.

And according to that theory, the authors claim that the final dip in the 2400-year cycle seen in Figures 2 & 5 is the cause of the cold times around the Little Ice Age.

Which authors? I am the sole author of the post you are criticizing and my claim is that the solar grand minima were the main cause of the LIA, but not the only one. Volcanic activity also contributed. Did you read my article?

This means that a change in ∆14C of about 10 per mil reflects a change in cosmic rays that is enough to cause a global temperature change of 2°C.

This is completely bogus and crazy. You are building your own strawman before deconstructing it. Please leave me out of that mental exercise of yours.

So to recap: IF the claims are true that the changes in ∆14C shown in Figure 6 reflect changes in cosmic rays and that the changes in cosmic rays result in the claimed changes in temperature, then twenty thousand years ago the earth should have been 100°C cooler.

You are the only one making those claims and then attacking them. It is solar activity, not cosmic rays, what is proposed to have a relationship with climate. Something very basic explained in great detail in the article that you are criticizing without even bothering reading (or understanding)
You seem to be criticizing something that you haven’t read, on a scientific matter on which you appear to not have even basic knowledge and without having read the necessary bibliography to discuss it. Your amateurish approach to science appears to be sufficient to convince the average reader at WUWT that you know what you are talking about. You do not. Read more, write less.

RobR
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 6:09 am

Javier,
You cannot hide behind anonymity and attack others (Mosh for example) and then cry foul when someone criticizes your work.
You can’t have it both ways amigo.

Reply to  RobR
October 17, 2016 10:34 am

yes he can. Judith and Anthony allowed Him to Snipe from the Shadows.
Seems to me that if Anthony is going to allow anonymous Posters that They be held to HIGHER standard of propriety. that is the anonymous should never be allowed to single out those of us who do take the risk of having our comments and opinions live forever on the internet.
In the end Javier will slink away and when nature proves him wrong.. none of us will know.
When the warming continues and ice disappears.. will Willis show up to eat crow? Perhaps.. At least I know that I can challenge him and he will be around.
When it the cooling comes and the ice grows, will I show up to eat crow? you bet and Willis knows how to find me. You know he will call me out.
So here we are Willis and Mosh at 10 paces..
And Javier hides up in one the buildings as is allowed to shoot at the honorable duelers.
Frickin disgraceful.
were this my blog, he’d have to post data and code AT THE VERY LEAST or be banned for life.
[snip – saving you from yourself -mod]

Reply to  Steven Mosher
October 21, 2016 10:12 am

I asked Javier to provide the code and data you seek, here is his reply:

Anthony,
As I told Steven at Judith’s blog, that is a totally invalid request. My article there is a review. I have not used any data nor any methods. Everything is peer reviewed and published in the scientific literature. Here is a link to the bibliography. Everything is in the 54 articles cited in my article:
https://curryja.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/bibliography.pdf
Steven knows that because I told him there. He keeps asking for nonexistent data or methods because he doesn’t have anything to say.

On another article Javier wrote, I asked him for the data and code and he provided it, and the post has been updated with it.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/07/evidence-that-multidecadal-arctic-sea-ice-has-turned-the-corner/
Yet somehow, I don’t think this will appease Mr. Mosher, who seems more interested in personal bashing lately. I doubt he’ll even come back to reply.

Reply to  RobR
October 17, 2016 11:19 am

Ha ha,
Javier, made it clear WHY he does that,that Anthony and Dr. Curry know who he is,but agrees to omit his last name.
“Yes, that someone would be me. Javier is my Christian name. I am a PhD and scientist known by full name to Judith and Anthony. If my desire of privacy bothers you then don’t write about me and don’t even read me.”
meanwhile you hide your last name…….
What do YOU have to hide from,Rob?

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  RobR
October 17, 2016 1:14 pm

Says who?

catweazle666
Reply to  RobR
October 17, 2016 2:19 pm

“yes he can. Judith and Anthony allowed Him to Snipe from the Shadows.”
Would you like some cheese to go with that whine, Mosher?

seaice1
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 6:18 am

Welcome to WUWT

RobR
Reply to  seaice1
October 17, 2016 1:06 pm

I have posted on this site for years as RobRicket….first and last name. Of course, I’m not the one hiding behind an academic title and belittling someone else’s work.
RobR

Ethan Brand
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 6:33 am

“Your amateurish approach to science appears to be sufficient to convince the average reader at WUWT that you know what you are talking about.”
“I am a PhD and scientist known by full name to Judith and Anthony. If my desire of privacy bothers you then don’t write about me and don’t even read me.”
A number of years ago I as working at a nuclear power station as a fire protection engineer. We had an issue with fire exposure to a cable chase room located above an office area. Both the regulator (NRC Inspector) and I had a concern about a fire damaging important cables. We commissioned a “state of the art” fire modeling study to better understand the exposure and to help determine the appropriate changes to better protect the cables. The model used was a generally accepted physics based model. In general you “built” a simulated environment and then lit various fires to see what might happen. The model usage is constrained by real world fire experiments to determine the usable “envelope” of the model. We hired a very respected, very expensive firm, complete with a PhD in the required area. The resultant report concluded that the cable chase tray sprinklers (water supplied heat actuated fire suppression sprinklers) would not adequately protect the cables from a fire in the office below. I (no PhD) questioned the result. I basically approached the problem much like Willis…ie a big picture simplistic viewpoint. The first item I noticed was that the model was failing the cables due to unacceptably high heat flux (what you feel when standing near a fire). I then asked the question…why were the cables damaged, yet the sprinklers located right next to them not actuated? I applied my simple, armature approach and did a gross calculation of the resultant temperature increase of the sprinkler head (it works by melting or bursting a temperature sensitive element holding back the water). My simple calculation on a blackboard in front of my supervisor and a few other engineers clearly showed that the same heat flux the was supposed to damage the cables would definitely cause the sprinklers to actuate long before the cables could be damaged. I/we were left with the question of why? I spoke at length to the PhD about my questions…who initially dismissed my “amateurish approach”. He was completely unimpressed with my back of the envelope heat calculation showing the sprinklers should actuate. After all, he was using a state of the art computer model, had a PhD is fire dynamics, and the government (NRC) had accepted the use of the model. I was obviously incorrect in my conclusion. Undeterred, I starting studying the underlying model. It took very little effort to determine that the model was using different heat transfer calculations for the cables than for the sprinkler heads. Basically, the cables were being exposed to the simulated heat flux, but the sprinklers were only exposed to the simulated gross area air temperature. This “feature” resulted in a report which concluded that the cables would be damaged, because the sprinklers did not actuate. The PhD was relatively unimpressed…but did allow that the sprinklers would likely actuate, protecting the cables. Oh well, what’s a few hundred thousand dollars for a lovely looking report with nonsense results. Unfortunately , I have found over 40 years of engineering experience that this kind of situation is all to common. Another story, in a nutshell, involved a steel plate and failure under differential pressure. Bottom line…a very simplistic approach involving standing and jumping on a plate, following by a test stand with me supplied the air pressure (ie blowing into a test volume with a tube) showed that the plate would not fail. My point here, is that anytime anyone has an issue with a critique that relies on a simplistic big picture approach immediately makes me suspicious. Couple that with an unwillingness to provide your name..well, these obviously don’t in and of themselves negate their work…but they sure set off some alarm bells.
Willis may be completely off base here, but based on my experience through many years of similar analysis, I certainly won’t dismiss his observations based on Dr. Javier’s objections.
Regards,
Ethan Brand

Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 10:39 am

@Javier: interaction of solar particle wind with atmosphere is
a) producing 14C from 12N
and
b) alleged to be changing the nucleation of water droplets, and thus, possibly, precipitation patterns. The CLOUD project at the CERN is not yet conclusive.
These interactions being influenced by two parameters, solar activity and orientation of the Earth’s magnetic field, its is quite risky to separate these variables and to pick one for a causality analysis.
Is there data about declination angle of the Earth Magnetic field over the sane time period?

Reply to  Michel
October 17, 2016 10:41 am

oOops : from 14 N, sorry

Reply to  Michel
October 17, 2016 12:17 pm

Michel.
“alleged to be changing the nucleation of water droplets, and thus, possibly, precipitation patterns.”
That is a hypothesis that I do not share, because the changes to cosmic rays are a factor of ten due to the changes in the geomagnetic field of the Earth over the changes in solar magnetic field due to solar variability. As I do not believe that the climate of the Earth depends primarily on its geomagnetic field, I cannot believe that hypothesis.

whiten
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 11:58 am

Javier
October 17, 2016 at 5:16 am
You haven’t done enough reading on the issue. 14C levels are affected by changes in carbon mass budget. Prior to 11,000 BP there were big changes in sea levels and oceanic CO2 release. As the corrections are not to be trusted prior to that date, most analysis stop at 9000-11700 BP.
————–
Javier, I could be wrong but, your statement above to me seems very wrong.
Meaning that the data after 11 000bp to present could be wrong too.
You see, the changes in the carbon mass budget while do effect the overall CO2 concentration in the atmosphere, actually that change and variation does not really effect the 14C concentration in atmosphere, as it, is effected only by the sink not the emissions, as it, is not a “product” of the overall CO2 emissions.
And sinks variation is very insignificant really in comparison with emissions, meaning the residence time of CO2 (including 14C) varies very little and it is not very significant in effecting or affecting the C14 to have an extra variation over time in the top of what causes it and its variation in the first place in the atmosphere, the cosmic rays+ etc. etc., whatever.
But the samples used for estimation of the C14 concentration in the atmosphere will be effected by the overall CO2 emission and what you call the carbon mass budget because is the CO2 emission and its variation over the time causing the actual CO2 concentration amount and its variation (including 14C) in the samples. (and in the atmosphere too, apart from effecting 14C levels there).
So a very flawed method to rely at for estimations of the 14C levels in the atmosphere, as also
the samples budged CO2 intake is not limitless.
As there is no any actual quantifying of the CO2 emissions variation over that long time period there realistically can not be even a pretense of quantifying of 14C concentration variation in the samples, let alone in the atmosphere actually.
Lack of such a quantifying does not allow a “translation” of actual amounts of CO2 emissions in actual amounts of CO2 concentration in atmosphere.
Without a correct residence time for CO2 in atmosphere it will never be possible,,,,, even then it will be a hard task…..with lots of headaches
Remember overall CO2 emission and its variation over time does not effect or affect the 14C in atmosphere, when in same time it may very well much so effect or affect the C14 concentration in the samples used for the estimating of the C14 concentration in the atmosphere.
cheers.

Reply to  whiten
October 17, 2016 2:05 pm

Whiten,
This is the reason why no solar reconstruction from 14C extends past 12000 BP:
http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a475/Knownuthing/Radiocarbon%20Reconstruction_zps3qtxsigo.png
(b) is the 1 sigma.
Source:
http://www.clim-past.net/9/1879/2013/cp-9-1879-2013.pdf
Roth, R., & Joos, F. (2013). A reconstruction of radiocarbon production and total solar irradiance from the Holocene 14 C and CO 2 records: implications of data and model uncertainties. Climate of the Past, 9(4), 1879-1909.

Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 8:03 pm

It appears that neither Mosh and RobR,have anything to complain about Javier’s, reply to Willis. They cry about a missing last name, as if that was of critical importance, to what he writes.
Grow up,Fellas!

October 17, 2016 5:17 am

I think you may have totally misunderstood the Intcal curve to start with.
That’s one point.
The second is that its SO much easier if you have the data, and have interpolated enough sample points to make a decent set, to throw it a a fast Fourier algorithm and see what the spectral density is without all this bodg9ng and effective high pass filtering.
That’s a criticism of both the article being criticised in this post, and the post.
I dont have time to verify the first assertion, so urge people to peer review this against what a C14 calibration curve actually is…

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Leo Smith
October 17, 2016 5:32 am

One of the primary conditions for doing F analysis is that the data be stationary.
One way to do this would be to take the first difference which effectively detrends it. A spectral analysis is the first thing I would have done ( after first diff ).
Actually as I noted above I think the trend is due to a maths correction and could be removed quite precisely.

justathought
October 17, 2016 5:23 am

I find the first graph absolutely unbelievable on the face of it. How can we prove that conditions were so very different, and got more different, as we look further back into the past? The error bars for each preceding year must grow ever wider, to the point where no confidence can be placed in the “data”. I suspect the point of no believable return is around the -7000 mark.
Furthermore, the half-life of C-14 is around 5700 years. Can anyone seriously tell me they can extrapolate out to nine or ten half-lives?

Reply to  justathought
October 17, 2016 5:30 am

Nobody is making claims based on 14C prior to 11,700 BP, i.e. the start of the Holocene. Prior claims are based on 10Be in ice cores.

justathought
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 5:32 am

So why is the graph labeled delta_C14? Are two different data sets being spliced, a la Mann?

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 5:34 am

Oh, I think you will lots of geologists doing just that.

Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 5:37 am

Because they do measure changes in 14C. It is used for carbon dating, and prior to 11,700 the dates are less and less reliable, but nobody reconstructs solar activity from 14C prior to 11,700 BP.

justathought
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 5:39 am

“They do measure changes in 14C”…I think you’re saying that C14 changes are deduced from 10Be? Sounds extremely Mannish to me.

Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 5:49 am

“I think you’re saying that C14 changes are deduced from 10Be?”
No. That’s not what I mean. 14C is measured from organic remains, mostly wood, that have been dated by geological, archeological, and dendrochronological means. That’s how IntCal is built and updated. IntCal serves the purpose of carbon dating. Libby got a Nobel prize for that. Carbon dating can be used up to 50,000 yr BP.
14C is also a proxy for solar activity, but AFAIK nobody has tried to reconstruct solar activity from 14C for earlier than 11,700 BP.
10Be is completely independent from 14C in everything except that its production is also increased by cosmic rays.

justathought
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 5:53 am

“archeological and dendrochronological” I can believe for a few thousands of years (maybe 20,000 for the latter), but geological evidence must be based on equally (if not more suspect) assumptions about the initial state and subsequent interactions of samples. Not trying to be argumentative, I find the first graph frankly incredible just from its shape alone.

Greg Goodman
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 7:11 am

As I’ve pointed out a couple of times, there is an incorrect half-life for 14C which needs correcting for.
You need to check that out before jumping to conclusions.

Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 7:43 am

Greg Goodman October 17, 2016 at 7:11 am
As I’ve pointed out a couple of times, there is an incorrect half-life for 14C which needs correcting for.

Yes the INTCAL13 graph includes the correction from the value determined by Libby (5568) and the presently determined value (5730).

justathought
Reply to  Javier
October 17, 2016 1:43 pm

I dunno if the recent replies are meant for me. The 14C half-life is an x-axis unit wrt graph 1, so only drastic difference from 5700 approx. would make the graph look much different. Just the “things were 20x different (y-axis) in the past” doesn’t pass the smell test. If they were all that different, how many of the necessary assumptions still apply? None, it would seem to me.

Joe
October 17, 2016 5:35 am

The term normal is not used in isotopes stable isotopes of carbon are C12 (98.9%) and C13 (1.1%). Naturally occurring isotopes of Carbon also includes C14.
I suppose somewhere there is a paper explaining C14 abundance over time. In addition to solar, there is geomagnetic and I suppose galactic variations (10My+ cycle). I would guess that the earth came out of a glacial period 12Ka factors into this.
Note that the interval between values for Fig 1 is 5 years from 11950BC, but coarser before then. So I have no problems with looking at the data set for just the last 12,000 years which corresponds to both the fine granularity data and the interglacial.
The purpose of the Clilverd paper is too project solar activity in the next century, and does so by looking at a proxy for solar activity over a 10,000 year period. In the paper, it is stated that the 7000-year cycle is mainly attributed to geomagnetic, so this is not entirely unknown. I did not find an attribution for the linear term, but this could be a long cycle characteristic.
If the assertion is that C14 variations due to solar activity have lower periodicity, then it is perfectly reasonable to filter out long cycle variation. Given that the 2300-year cycle is probably not geomagnetic, then it is likely to be solar.
The supposition is that solar variations might be correlated to climate. This does not mean C14 variation is correlated to climate, only the solar portion.

Reply to  Joe
October 17, 2016 5:54 am

That is a very good assessment of Clilverd et al. Their projection to the future is very controversial and I do not agree with it, but their analysis of past solar activity is absolutely non-controversial and in agreement with the field.

Reply to  Joe
October 18, 2016 4:57 pm

I cannot accept that C14 fluctuations are not driven by geomagnetic fluctuations at 100 year and longer time frames. I don’t think we have the data to rule it out. Plus the Leschamp event (~41ka) adequately shows two paleomagnetic reversals in the span of a few hundred years. If a reversal can happen that quickly, then a reduction or increase in geomagnetic field strength by a factor of 2 in a few hundred years must be a plausible event. If so, the geomagnetic field fluctuations probably swamp any solar signal.

commieBob
October 17, 2016 5:38 am

How does one diagnose a 7.000 year cycle when you only have about 12,000 years of data, not even two full cycles?

You don’t, unless you know you’re dealing with a continuous (ie. unchanging) waveform. That’s not the case here.

dscott
October 17, 2016 5:44 am

Or is the issue rather about a change in a variable perturbs the climate system balance? Does it really matter at what absolute value you make one variable change? Any time you change a variable, the system re-balances itself to the new dynamic. Are you conflating a cumulative value with an instantaneous trend in an apples versus oranges comparison?

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