Guest essay by David Archibald
In the time before the current period of faith-based science, much good work was done on the role of the Sun in controlling climate. One of the best monographs from that time of innocence is Hoyt and Schatten’s The Role of the Sun in Climate Change, published by Oxford University Press in 1997. That book starts with this paragraph:
About 400 years before the birth of Christ, near Mt. Lyscabettus in ancient Greece, the pale orb of the sun rose through the mists. According to habit, Meton recorded the sun’s location on the horizon. In this era when much remained to be discovered, Meton hoped to find predictable changes in the locations of sunrise and moonrise. Although rainy weather had limited his recent observations, this foggy morning he discerned specks on the face of the sun, the culmination of many such blemishes in recent years. On a hunch, Meton began examining his more than 20 years of solar records. These seemed to confirm his belief: when the sun has spots, the weather tends to be wetter and rainier.

So the idea that sunspots and the solar cycle control climate is at least 2,400 years old. In the modern era, the appreciation of sunspots started again in 1610 with telescopic observations by Galileo, Thomas Harriot and others. The solar cycle was discovered by Samual Schwabe in 1843 after 17 years of observations, though William Herschel’s correlation of sunspots and the wheat price in England dates from 1801. A 2003 paper by Pustilnik and Din entitled Influence of Solar Activity on State of Wheat Market in Medieval England confirmed Herschel’s observation.
The idea that the Sun controls climate is easy enough to understand. In fact the Earth’s climate is exquisitively sensitive to changes in solar output, as shown in Nir Shaviv’s 2009 paper Using the Oceans as a Calorimeter to Quantify the Solar Radiative Forcing. Professor Shaviv found that the total radiative forcing associated with solar cycles variations is about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations.
We know what causes individual sunspots – something to do with magnetic flux tubes rising to the solar surface due to bouyancy. But the cause of the solar cycle itself had remained a mystery until the recent publication of the second edition of Evidence-Based Climate Science, edited by the indefatigable Don Easterbrook. The first edition, published in 2011, contained a paper by Ed Fix, retired B-52 pilot from Ohio, entitled The Relationship of Sunspot Cycles to Gravitational Stresses on the Sun: Results of a Proof-of-Concept Simulation, which demonstrated the modulation of the solar cycle by the gas planets. The second edition expands on that with a co-authored paper (Ed and myself) entitled Aspects of Solar Variability and Climate Response which details the relative contribution of those planets.
It has long been suspected that the solar cycle is largely influenced by Jupiter due to the closeness of the average length of the solar cycle of 11 years and the orbital period of Jupiter of 11.86 years. In 1984, Schwentek and Elling noted that “the clearly dominant spectral band in sunspot number, the solar cycle of 10.8 years, is given by the configuration period of Jupiter and Saturn (19.859 yr) times the ratio of their distances from the Sun (0.545).” Just over a decade later, Attila Grandpierre confirmed that whatever was causing the solar cycle must be extrinsic to the Sun – which leaves the planets as the causative agent.
Ed Fix’s 2011 paper was important because it provided a physical explanation for solar cycle behaviour. Many of the then observation-derived rules for explaining the fundamental properties of the sunspot cycle had not been quantified until that paper. To a large extent, existing solar science is based on non-mathematical observation, evidenced by Dikpati’s and Hathaway’s various predictions of solar cycle amplitude. The 2011 paper’s treatment of the sunspot cycle as an ideal spring driven by changes in radial acceleration provided a new paradigm. At the same time, this new model is consistent with the solar dynamo theory.
Ed Fix’s model explains why, for extended periods, successive increases in solar cycle amplitude are seen before the system gets out of phase and phase destruction occurs. Individual Hale cycles are not discrete magnetic events. The quantum of flux preserved in the system is the basis for the amplitude of the following cycle. Thus the sunspot cycle memory effect is explained.
The model also explains the Waldemeir effect – that strong cycles reach a maximum of amplitude in the shortest period of time. It also explains the amplitude-period effect (the anti-correlation between the peak amplitude of a cycle and the length of the preceding cycle) and the amplitude-minimum effect (the correlation between cycle amplitude and the activity level at the previous minimum). Ed Fix’s model hindcasts almost perfectly and that very close match, despite the model’s simplicity, suggests that a lot of confidence could be placed in what it is predicting.
Some have doubted the planetary basis of the solar cycle due to the weak effects of the individual planets on the Sun. That is certainly borne out by the work done for the 2016 paper. Figure 1, from that paper, shows that by itself Jupiter has little effect on solar variability:
Figure 1: Simulation model with Jupiter only compared to the full model
Similarly, Figure 2 running the model with only Saturn shows a similarly low amplitude response though with Saturn’s 29 year orbital period instead of Jupiter’s 12 years:
Figure 2: Simulation model with Saturn only compared to the full model
So, if Jupiter and Saturn have little effect on the Sun by themselves, as predicted by many, what does cause the solar cycle? This is the mystery that has not been explained until now.
It turns out that the interaction of Jupiter and Saturn causes most of the solar cycle. The effect on the Sun of these two planets is synergistic rather than additive as shown by Figure 3. It has been said that mathematics is the language of physics. What has been elucidated by this paper is the mathematical basis of the solar cycle.
Figure 3: Simulation model with Jupiter and Saturn compared to the full model
The red line shows the full model which includes Uranus and Neptune as well as Jupiter and Saturn. The difference between the red and blue lines is the effect of Uranus and Neptune. This can be additive or subtractive. In Solar Cycles 18 and 22, Uranus and Neptune increased the amplitude of the solar cycles relative to the model output of Jupiter and Saturn alone. In Solar Cycles 20 and 24, Uranus and Neptune had the effect of reducing the size of those solar cycles. Thus the cold period of the 1970s cooling period associated with Solar Cycle 20 may have been due to the influence of Uranus and Neptune.
Where to from here? Well, there is another big mystery remaining about the Sun. The hemispheres have different activities that are preserved on a multi-cycle basis. That is shown in the following figure:
Figure 4: Sunspot area by solar hemisphere
For the last three cycle, the southern hemisphere has had more sunspot area than the northern hemisphere. Its peak has also been later than that of the northern hemisphere. What could be causing that? It is likely to be the inclination of the orbits of the gas giant planets to the Sun’s equator. Those inclination are:
Jupiter 6.09%
Saturn 5.51%
Uranus 6.48%
Neptune 6.43%
It seems that the next step will be to make a 3D version of Ed Fix’s model.
David Archibald is the author of Twilight of Abundance (Regnery).
I hoped Leif would contribute, but maybe it is beneath him.
He gets tired of continually responding to this theory.
So it’s basically all about Neptune and Uranus.
Wasn’t there a paper on this exact concept in 2010?
Are Uranus & Neptune Responsible for Solar Grand Minima and Solar Cycle Modualtion?
Ulric lyons:
Take another look at the ENSO tables that you posted. There were no La Ninas during the 1982 El Chichon eruption, or the 1991 Mount Pinatubo eruption (El Ninas are listed in blue)
I meant La Ninas
Take another look at my comment, I said that stratospheric volcanic aerosol cooling of the surface promotes El Nino conditions. Which is why such aerosols won’t have anything to do with the mid 1970’s surface cooling.
Ulrich Lyons:
Yes, you did say “stratospheric volcanic aerosol cooling of the surface promotes El Nino conditions”
What nonsense! El Ninos are caused by warming of the Pacific Ocean waters, not their cooling.
There have been at least 23 El Ninos since 1950, and perhaps only a half dozen eruptions strong enough to inject significant amounts of aerosols into the stratosphere.
That isn’t nonsense, stratospheric volcanic aerosol cooling of the surface does promote El Nino conditions.
Please give me a link supporting your assertion.
I just can’t imagine how that could be true.
Sure:
http://bfy.tw/8CqC
You’re all missing the big point! This line of reasoning is going to give ammunition to those wacky astrologer types. This research must be suppressed!
David, I have not yet gotten an answer to my central question asked above … what do your graphs show about the sun? They don’t have a significant 11-year or 22-year cycle, so why are you claiming they are solar related?
Also, as I asked above (loc. cit.), where is “the 2016 paper” you refer to in the head post?
w.
The latest paper by Archibald and Fix along with this post is a wholesale rip off of my ground breaking work.
The theory has been online since 2008, first published at Arxiv in 2010 and then published in a peer reviewed journal in 2013.
http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=36513&#reference
Nothing new going on here…
Griff is wrong about there having to be a conspiracy for data to be fudged. It’s all about consensus and following the herd while thinking yourself to be a good person.
In my country you have to take this and that stance on issue X and Y in order to be accepted. People who have a lot to loose like their jobs for example will shut up and toe the party line.
It doesn’t even have to be as dramatical as loosing your job. It can be that your chances of promotion are damaged or even such mundane fears that your neighbours will distance themselves from you.
If you have to choose X and have your career damaged, possibly your social life as well or do Y and get approval and maybe even rewards, which will you choose?
There is no cabal sitting around in the shadows, it is not needed, All it takes is hundreds of thousands worker bees not questioneing and among those there might be thousands who step over the line in order to secure their positions and as a bonus maybe get rewarded.
They don’t co-operate as in a conspiracy but from the outside it can look like a conspiracy. Just good old lemming behaviour.
There is both going on. Cabals and Lemmings, they feed off each other.
This whole post is a trolling exercise. Trolling for trolls who troll trolls.
What are you referring to? Archibald’s blog post or the comments?
David Archibald, not for the first time, has written some nonsensical mumbo-jumbo which has triggered a number of perfectly reasonable questions from readers.
Perhaps you’d like to explain what the point of David’s post is. A couple of paragraphs should do it. Thanks.
It is so bad that certain people are using addition aliases and having conversations with themselves using alternative names. There is a name for people who talk to themselves.
blockquote> There is a name for people who talk to themselves.
Paul Westhaver appears to be one ].
Willis
You’ve clearly forgotten to multiply the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction period by your shoe size before subtracting the number you first thought of.
Oh, very good. Glad I could finally get some joy out of this post.
Thanks,
w.
Burl Henry October 14, 2016 at 5:27 pm
I’ve responded to your earlier post HERE
Where to start.
Firstly, why would GLOBAL temperatures be influenced by the US business cycle to any significant degree. Industrialisation did take place in other parts of the world. Secondly, Recessions do not mean all industrial activity ceases. Typically, recessions involve a drop in output of less than 1%. You seem to be implying that this relatively small contraction can increase global temperatures by up to half a degree. What do you imagine would happen if all industrial activity stopped?
Please tell us how much warmer was the earth in pre-industrial times if such small reductions in aerosol production can have such a significant global-wide effect?
John Finn:
Firstly, it speaks (or spoke) to the size of the U.S. economy with respect to the rest of the world–and when ours faltered, others followed, magnifying the effect.
Secondly, I agree that not all industrial activity ceases–not a necessity, Some will shut down, temporarily,:most will simply reduce production, heavy industry and power generation (the strongest polluters) would be the most affected.
The warming from all recessions is close to 0.2 deg. C. each time, not half a degree as you suggested (probably so similar because the same industries are affected each time) A one-half degree rise, however, occurred during both depressions–much less industrial activity then.
(The 0.2 and 0.5 deg. C. temp. rises correspond to SO2 aerosol reductions of 10 and 25 Megatonnes)
If all industry were to shut down, giving anthropogenic SO2 emissions time to settle out, we could expect temperatures to rise another 2.0 deg. C from the present.
(Rather than being a problem, fossil fuel emissions actually help to maintain a livable temperature).
I am not implying that small reductions in SO2 aerosol production has a significant global-wide effect. It is a FACT–unless you can supply a viable alternate explanation for the .observations–and it’s certainly not greenhouse gasses!.
blockquote> If all industry were to shut down, giving anthropogenic SO2 emissions time to settle out, we could expect temperatures to rise another 2.0 deg. C from the present.
So in 1700 (pre-indiustrial age) temperatures were 2 degrees higher than they are now?
What do you mean by this? A recession is defined by 2 successive quarters of negative growth, There are very deep recessions (depressions) and very shallow recessions.
A US recession DOES NOT necessarily mean a global recession. A deep US recession might contribute to a slowdown in global growth as would a Chineses recession but there is normally still growth across the world. Global output has risen year on year since the 1960s.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG
Note there has been only one global recession since 1961 and that was in 2009. 2009 was warmer than 2008 but that was because of a La Nina in 2007/08. 2009 wasn’t warmer than 2006 or 2007 … or 2010 when global growth had returned.
John Finn:
You wrote “so in 1770 (pre-industrial age) temperatures were 2 degrees higher than now”
I have no idea what average global temperatures were in 1770. (for one thing, SO2 emissions were not zero at that time. due to the widespread use of coal for heating)
I merely stated that (based upon the present amount of anthropogenic SO2 emissions in the atmosphere (approx. 90 Megatonnes), temperatures would be expected to rise about 2.0 deg. C. above present temperatures if all emissions were removed. This was in answer to your question.
“The warming from all recessions is close to .02 deg. C”
This is the observed peak heights shown on the graph. I already offered an explanation for this uniformity. The width of the peaks also tracks the length of the recessions..
I am awaiting YOUR explanation of the perfect correlation between slowdowns in business activity and temporary increases in average land-ocean surface temperatures, rather than trying to find fault with mine. It is a real phenomenon .
(I would also point out that, as would be expected, the graph of ERSST sea-surface temperatures shows the same correlation)
So in 1700 (pre-indiustrial age) temperatures were 2 degrees higher than they are now?
Correction: “pre-indiustrial age” should be “pre-industrial age”
Burl Henry October 16, 2016 at 9:34 am
I didn’t. I wrote “1700” – not “1770”.
To repeat I referred to 1700 – not 1770. Widespread use of coal for heating began in England later in the 1700s. In 1700 the estimated world population was between 600-680 million (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates). In other words, it was around 10% of the current population. Even in 1900, the world population was only around 25% of to-day’s figure.
Your hypothesis makes no sense. if SO2 was the main driver of climate, temperatures in 1900 would have been much higher than they are now and much, much higher than they were in the 1970s. I have access to numerous independent records (independent of GISS or Hadley) and I can’t find a single one that supports the argument that the 1900s were warmer than the 1970s One record is particularly relevant.
You confidently dismiss CO2 as having ANY effect which suggests you don’t really understand how increasing CO2 has the potential to make the world warmer.
John Finn:
Yes, SO2 is the MAIN driver of climate change…
When it is REMOVED from the atmosphere, warming occurs because of the cleaner, more transparent air. (And when it is added, temperatures decrease–as observed after all large volcanic eruption).
A very simple concept, easily proven and scientifically accurate.
The Climate sensitivity to their removal is .02 deg. C. of warming for each net Megatonne of reduction in the amount of global SO2 emissions.
Anthropogenic SO2 aerosol emissions peaked in 1972 at 131 Megatonnes. By 2011, due to Clean Air efforts, they had fallen to 101 Megatonnes, a decrease of 30 Megatonnes.
Using the .02 deg. C. climate sensitivity factor and the 30 Megatonne reduction in aerosol emissions, an anomalous temperature rise of 0.60 deg. C. would be expected.for 2011. This is exactly the J-D land-ocean average global temperature reported by NASA.
Other years are accurate to within .02 deg. C.
With this accuracy, there can NEVER have been any additional warming due to greenhouse gasses!
Now, tell me where I am wrong.
Publishing such poor models of the sunspot cycle as this one, would likely just put people off the notion that the planets control sunspot cycles. I’m wondering whether this is a deliberate WUWT policy, or merely a lack of discernment. Either way, it is very low quality.
Anthony Watts, surely this must breach your blog policy?
“Regarding me implying that you are a scumball, you called me a liar after I very clearly said I didn’t remember something … so no, I absolutely do not “imply that you are a scumball”.
I state it outright, along with the reason. Only a scumball would accuse a man of lying simply because that man doesn’t remember some trivial incident.”
Especially as I definitely did not call Willis a liar.
Maybe Willis is a bit sore with me over this…
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2016/09/the-faster-a-planet-rotates-the-warmer-its-average-temperature/#comment-226684
And and top of that, Eschenbach claims that I made up the name and the existence of the late 1800’s Gleissberg Solar Minimum, i.e. that I was lying about it. This is frankly, very narcissistic behaviour.
Ulric – your ‘discussion’ with Willis was initiated by your insistence that there was a clear correlation between the sunspot number and global (or CE) temperatures. He has analysed this claimed correlation and concludes that it doesn’t exist – and I agree with him. Willis has not closed his mind on this topic and has invited anyone to provide a link to any data which supports a sun/climate link.
No-one has produced anything except waffle and a few studies which are liberally laced with “may be” and “could be” speculation. Whether or not the late 1800s solar minimum has a designated label is irrelevant. The data is what it is and it shows that any correlation between solar activity and surface temperature is pathetically weak at best.
“Ulric – your ‘discussion’ with Willis was initiated by your insistence that there was a clear correlation between the sunspot number and global (or CE) temperatures.”
It was not. And mind your own business.
ulric lyons October 16, 2016 at 4:36 am
This comment is the first I can find in which you respond to Willis.
ulric lyons October 14, 2016 at 4:06 am
Willis states correctly that no one has shown any conclusive evidence that the small ~11-year variations in the sun produce any detectable effect on the surface climate. In your response, you disagree which suggests you do believe that there is a link between solar activity and surface temperature. In what way was my comment incorrect?
As far as I’m aware Anthony Watts allows people to comment freely (within reason) on this blog so I’d suggest any of the blog’s content is as much my business as it is yours. I can understand why you might not be happy about your opinions being held up to public scrutiny but the best solution might be to discuss your views in private – possibly with like minded individuals who won’t disagree with you.
You specifically said sunspot number. And do cease trolling my comment addressed to Anthony with irrelevant diversionary waffle.
Bartemis October 16, 2016 at 10:31 am
Bartemis, thanks for your reply. I so enjoy the magic power of words. It seems that no matter what cycle you find in nature, say fifty-two years, it can be related directly to the sun.
Why is a fifty-two year cycle related to the sun? Because “modulation”.
Or alternatively …
Why? Because “resonance”.
Or alternatively …
Why? Because “natural periodic mechanisms”.
Or alternatively …
Why? Because “coupling”.
Now, modulation and all of those others are real phenomena. They can all be demonstrated using electronic circuits, and indeed much of our terminology describing such systems relates to electronic signal analysis. And in the lab, it’s easy to figure out some combination of resistors and capacitors and electronic components which will take the eleven-year sunspot signal as input and will then output say a twenty-six year cycle.
Here’s the problem. As explained by the Constructal Law, natural flow systems like the oceans and the atmosphere run at the edge of turbulence. Because of this pervasive turbulence, the systems are heavily damped—when the driving impulse stops, the flow quickly stops as well. Thermal winds die quickly after dark. Wind driven ocean currents stop rapidly once the wind dies out.
As a result, there is little “resonance”. Things in nature generally don’t ring like a bell, with the signal persisting over time. Walk around the forest, pick up anything you see, rocks, trees, plants, whatever, and hit it with a little brass hammer … does it ring like a bell? Nature doesn’t do “resonance” all that well. It does happen, to be sure, but it is by far the exception rather than the rule … and even then it dies out quickly.
You could simulate this electronically by putting various circuits to ground through various resistors all around the circuit. This would simulate the losses to friction and turbulence. Do that to a lovely resonant electronic circuit and it will die right out.
This is why I’m generally suspicious when folks start saying that a twenty-six year cycle is the result of the “frequency modulation” of the eleven-year solar signal. Yes, it is possible in the lab … but I have not seen any good, well-analyzed actual observations of examples of such frequency modulation occurring elsewhere in the climate system.
FOR EXAMPLE: You are claiming frequency modulation resulting from the eleven-year solar cycles. That is not the only solar cycle. There is also a strong annual cycle in solar strength, due to the earth’s varying distance from the sun. Can you point me to some examples of some kind of frequency modulation of this annual variation into some much longer cycle, say a five or eight year cycle or something?
Look, I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m just saying that without examples of that kind of frequency modulation occurring in other parts of the climate, merely claiming that a twenty-six year cycle is the result of “modulation” and “natural periodic mechanisms” is just using magic words …
My best to you,
w.
”Things in nature generally don’t ring like a bell, with the signal persisting over time.”
They do. All the time. Resonances are, in fact, ubiquitous in nature. From the natural frequencies of trees swaying in the wind to the inertial waves of the oceans. Their persistence depends on the rate of energy dissipation.
I have much more to say, but I don’t want to make this TLDR. The ~11 year solar cycle undoubtedly exists. We don’t have to agree on why, though I think neither of us believe it is because of tiny planetary tidal forcing. The question is, how does it manifest itself in Earthly climate?
”There is also a strong annual cycle in solar strength, due to the earth’s varying distance from the sun.”
But, when the Earth is closer to the Sun, it is moving faster. It is a remarkable property of elliptical orbits that the integral of power received from a central body at one focus grows at constant rate. That is because power is inversely proportional to distance squared, but so is angular rate.
” Can you point me to some examples of some kind of frequency modulation of this annual variation into some much longer cycle, say a five or eight year cycle or something?”
The rate at which the Earth’s axial tilt precesses is mostly a response to tidal forcing from the Sun and Moon. If we assume this modulates the ~11 year solar cycle for storage of heat in the oceans, then we expect to see roughly 5 year and 60 year components in the temperature data. And, that is, in fact, what we see.
It’s not a slam dunk by any means. But, as I have said, it is portentous. Something is creating these cycles, and it isn’t CO2.
It is reasonable, then, to consider it highly likely that the ultimate source is the overwhelmingly most significant driver of Earthly climate in general. And that, as some people like to say in a folksy manner, is that big yellow ball of fire up in the sky.
The timing of each sunspot maximum can be plotted very closely by when the inferior conjunctions of Earth and Venus are in closer syzygy with Uranus, and in even numbered cycles with Jupiter roughly in syzygy with Uranus, and in odd numbered cycles with Jupiter roughly in quadrature with Uranus. When the Ju-Ea-Ve triplet slips enough out of sync with Uranus is when a solar minimum occurs, the triplet then do a similar progression with Neptune instead of Uranus for remainder of the solar minimum until they can physically gain the original sync with Uranus again. Which is why there are a couple of very short solar cycles in Maunder, because the Ju-Ea-Ve triplet return faster to Neptune than to Uranus. Thereby one can plot every solar minimum start date and duration, and the timing of most sunspot maxima to within a year. Anyone with TheSky or Alcyone astronomy software can easily confirm this, ideally at 291.961 day steps fixed to the Earth-Venus syzygies.
Ulric,
read the style of a couple of the comment bombers… They are identical. You may think that you are debating multiple people, rather, you are likely debating multiple personalities.
They fall into behavioral archetypes.
Paul Westhaver October 16, 2016 at 4:31 pm
I despise this kind of “accusing without accusing”. Paul, when you don’t have the albondigas to name names of those you are accusing of being sock puppets, it’s nothing more than you and Ulric indulging in nasty, underhanded gossip.
w.
Eschenbach, you are losing the plot you bitter fool. Paul didn’t mention sock puppets once. You are the one turning it nasty with your bitter accusations.I haven’t got a clue who he is talking about so don’t accuse me of nasty, underhanded gossip.
ulric lyons October 17, 2016 at 3:17 am
Paul said:
If one person is using two aliases on a thread (what Paul calls “multiple personalities”), that’s called using a “sock puppet”.
Ulric, you responded to Paul by saying:
Now you are claiming that you don’t even know who “they” are, that you have no clue who Paul is talking about … but if you don’t know who he’s talking about, then how could you possibly know that they fall into “behavioral archetypes”?
That’s why I said it was just gossip … unpleasant accusations against un-named people.
w.
“If one person is using two aliases on a thread (what Paul calls “multiple personalities”), that’s called using a “sock puppet””
Do stop twisting things to suit your unfounded bitter accusations Eschenbach.
“but if you don’t know who he’s talking about, then how could you possibly know that they fall into “behavioral archetypes”
Because I’m better at psychology that you?
So multiple people using one alias is what?
I’m not sure if I’m one of the “comment bombers” Paul Westhaver refers to, but let me assure him that Willis E and me are not the same person. I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting Willis – a good reason being because he lives in the US (I think) while I live in the UK. My interest in WUWT discussions is often triggered by mention of the CET since I live slap bang in the middle of the Central England region – and I have access to local temperature records which, while not part of the CET composite, do support the general CET trends.
I would, though, like to thank Willis for the time and trouble he takes to deconstruct some of the more nonsensical climate science research (on both sides of the AGW debate). A good example being his latest post:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/17/the-cosmic-problem-with-rays/
OK I’ve read Paul’s earlier comments, and it does appear that he is insinuating sock puppets, I actually misunderstood his comment here as I was tired, and did not realise that was what he was implying. Hence my comment about archetypes.
Eschenbach, why don’t you come clean on this and admit where you went wrong….
Eschenbach, the point is that I did not agree with Paul, whatever he meant, so you should have not made your accusation towards me.
Ulric, the question is not whether you agreed with Paul. The problem was that you did what he did—made unpleasant accusations against unknown people. That is why I said it was just gossip.
If you want to identify the people you are attacking, then they could defend themselves … but no, you seem to prefer anonymous attacks on people you identify solely as “they” …
w.
“The problem was that you did what he did—made unpleasant accusations against unknown people”
That’s another lie.
“The problem was that you did what he did—made unpleasant accusations against unknown people.”
The problem is you making unpleasant and false accusations against me.
“If you want to identify the people you are attacking, then they could defend themselves … but no, you seem to prefer anonymous attacks on people you identify solely as “they” …”
Cut it out Eschenbach, I already told you that I had no idea who Paul was talking about. Is a passing comment about comment bombers in general fitting certain archetypes really worth bringing your Spanish Inquisition out for? You’re making a fool of yourself again.
You remind me of the character that Yul Brynner played in Westworld 😉
Look at how this comment string started, can we keep it on topic please?
The timing of each sunspot maximum can be plotted very closely by when the inferior conjunctions of Earth and Venus are in closer syzygy with Uranus, and in even numbered cycles with Jupiter roughly in syzygy with Uranus, and in odd numbered cycles with Jupiter roughly in quadrature with Uranus. When the Ju-Ea-Ve triplet slips enough out of sync with Uranus is when a solar minimum occurs, the triplet then do a similar progression with Neptune instead of Uranus for remainder of the solar minimum until they can physically gain the original sync with Uranus again. Which is why there are a couple of very short solar cycles in Maunder, because the Ju-Ea-Ve triplet return faster to Neptune than to Uranus. Thereby one can plot every solar minimum start date and duration, and the timing of most sunspot maxima to within a year. Anyone with TheSky or Alcyone astronomy software can easily confirm this, ideally at 291.961 day steps fixed to the Earth-Venus syzygies.
Ulric, if that is the case you should be able to precisely identify the timing of every sunspot maximum for the last 50,000 years, and for 50,000 years into the future.
You’ll forgive me if I don’t believe a word of that …
w.
“You’ll forgive me if I don’t believe a word of that …”
Hardly, as I doubt that you have even begun to examine the correlations.
And without apology, I don’t believe a word of this…
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/08/the-moon-is-a-cold-mistress/
“You’ll forgive me if I don’t believe a word of that …”
Say isn’t it astonishing how you can be so sure, without even looking !! Can you teach me how to do that?
MODERATION
please get Anthony to respond to this…
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/13/solar-cycle-mystery-solved/#comment-2320300
Anthony Watts, if you do not deal fairly with my complaints about Eschenbach, you will become a conspirator with his behaviour. Already since yesterday he has launched another unfounded accusation against me, of ‘nasty, underhanded gossip’.
You see, given that Eschenbach has lied about:
* me calling him a liar
* the Gleissberg Minimum being “not a recognized or named minimum”
* saying that it’s something I made up
I have have every right to suspect that what Eschenbach claims that he cannot remember, and he affectionately referred to as ‘trivial’, is also a pack of lies.
OK, Ulric, I give up. I withdraw everything I ever said about you. You win. Your constant nonsense has driven me away, I can’t deal with the astrological drool any further. The thread is yours. Put up your flag, announce your victory, the field is yours.
Enjoy the echo, I’m outta here …
w.
“Your constant nonsense has driven me away, I can’t deal with the astrological drool any further.”
Well be a good chap and withdraw that drivel too.
I didn’t expect you to have the guts to admit were you are wrong, or the decency to apologise for your behaviour. You just made another little spiteful slur while retreating. I see no integrity or honesty in you whatsoever.
And you owe to science and readers alike to admit to your errors in your cold Moon postulate. The refutation is on Roy Spencer’s blog comments, linked above, and continued on his facebook page as my commenting became blocked on his blog, ending as you see here with Roy having to concede.
Which obviously also points to fatal errors in the calculation of Earth’s average surface temperature as a black-body equivalent:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/earths-surface-temperatures-using-hemispherical-rather-ulric-lyons?trk=pulse_spock-articles
Ulric, You said this:
“If one person is using two aliases on a thread (what Paul calls “multiple personalities”), that’s called using a “sock puppet””
Do stop twisting things to suit your unfounded bitter accusations Eschenbach.
“but if you don’t know who he’s talking about, then how could you possibly know that they fall into “behavioral archetypes”
Because I’m better at psychology that you?
Eschenbach was correct. How about saying sorry?
I’d actually now expect an apology from you for being extremely impertinent.
Ulric, Hating people because they do not like your ideas is not going to create happiness for you. You attacked the other guy in an unreasonable manner when he was totally correct in every aspect of what he was saying.
Ulric, Perhaps you can direct me to where this comment about “the Gleissberg Minimum being “not a recognized or named minimum” , so I read that for myself and try and see what is going on between you two?
“You attacked the other guy in an unreasonable manner when he was totally correct in every aspect of what he was saying.”
You are a total lying troll. Get a life.
Ulric, I see you are now calling me “a total lying troll”. 1. I am not a troll 2. I have told no lies here whatsoever.
“You attacked the other guy in an unreasonable manner when he was totally correct in every aspect of what he was saying.”
Eschenbach unreasonably and falsely accused me of indulging in nasty, underhanded gossip. Which is why you are a pathetic lying troll, Now get a life.
Ulric, ““Only a scumball would accuse a man of lying”
I didn’t call you a liar, I said that I cannot trust your word. I know the difference, you don’t seem to. You’ve actually lied that I had called you a liar, that makes you the scumball.”
If you tell me you cannot trust my word you are telling me my word is without substance, unreliable, false, worthless. Most people are not interested in playing psychologist sufficently to make allowances for people who have trust issues. A punch on the nose is often as good as you can expect if you do what you did.
Anthony Watts, please would you delete this troll’s highly offensive comment.
Calling me a troll when I am offering you the benefit of my advise is a bit silly. You are behaving like a victim and yet what you do is inviting what you receive.
Your sick comment about a punch on the nose is highly offensive, and I hope Anthony puts you in the sin bin for it.
Patently, saying that I cannot trust someones word, includes the possibility that they cannot remember a matter, it is definitely not a direct accusation that they are lying, as Eschenbach assumed, and that you are now assuming.
Ulric, OK so you are in a real world situation amongst ordinary people who are not constrained by professional ettiquite and you say “I dont trust you, I think you have a memory problem”, and when they reply to you that you can take that comment and shove it up your preverbial, and you turn around to other people and declare the comment was totally unjustified??
>>Your sick comment about a punch on the nose is highly offensive, and I hope Anthony puts you in the sin bin for it.
My sick comment?? Mate I was describing reality as I see it
You are not my mate, and you are a sad thuggish demented Eschenbach sycophant.
Ulric, So now i am a totally lying sick sad pathetic thuggish demented eschenback sycophantic extremely impertinant highly offensive troll, who is not your mate and needs to get a life, who you think should be apologising to you, and I am supposing that is far as we can progress this conversation at the moment.
Ulric,
>>saying that I cannot trust someones word, includes the possibility that they cannot remember a matter, it is definitely not a direct accusation that they are lying, as Eschenbach assumed, and that you are now assuming.
I was a bit slow here but I need a bit of help with this one. Eschenbach said he clearly said he did not remember something, you said you could not trust his word (that he could remember something), and you are now saying not trusting his word (he could not remember something) includes the possibility they could not remember something??
Seems to me you just flat out accused him of lying and now you are somehow imagining you did not?
He said he could not remember something……you said you did not trust his word he could not remember something.
“Seems to me you just flat out accused him of lying and now you are somehow imagining you did not?”
Seems to me that you are flat out accusing me of lying, and gaslighting too. You are very sick in the head indeed.
You’re overlooking the fact that I showed that Eschenbach had lied a number of times, and that I fairly returned his libelous ‘scumball’ back to the fundamental orifice that it was uttered from.
Ulric
>>“Because as far as I know, you’ve never presented your solar wind analysis OR your data as used, yet you expect us to believe it based on your word alone … ”
>>I have recently presented you evidence of the relationship between variations in the solar wind and a major surface climate variable. So I know for sure that I cannot trust your word.
How you can type away all day like this while claiming you did not accuse him of being a liar is beyond me to understand. As it reads you said you are sure he is a liar.
You are unbelievable. I did not call him a liar by saying that I could not trust his word, but I found him to be lying to me on a number of occasions. Now get lost troll.
Ulric, I have no idea if Eschenbach has lied. All I know is what he said that I first commented upon was true. I also know by all of the things you have said to me that you certainly like to embroider your text with accusations which as far as what you have told me just amounts to nasty gossip which I dont think anybody can admire. Am I to believe that you are tired today also and I have just got you on a bad day or am I to believe you have a habit of this kind of reaction? I really have no idea but you are not looking so good from my point of view
Ulric, I said:
>>you are not looking so good from my point of view
My suggestion to you is you also look at your own behaviour before you be so ready to look at the behaviour of others.
“I have no idea if Eschenbach has lied.”
So you also have no idea that I didn’t know what Paul was going on about at the time, and I didn’t give a hoot because it was irrelevant comment bombing. So don’t judge me from a position of pure ignorance.
“My suggestion to you is you also look at your own behaviour before you be so ready to look at the behaviour of others.”
After you have only made false accusations against me, and said ” A punch on the nose is often as good as you can expect if you do what you did”? I think you need to be sectioned.
Ulric The ignorance in question was your inability to be able to understand that paul was quite clearly talking about sock puppets where in your state of confusion you began one of your apparently typical childish attacks upon the commenters character even though Willis made a big effort to lay out what was being said line by line in totally clear detail for you. And you justified your behaviour by saying you were tired. I have said all i want to say about this.
Excuse me but you are the one doing the childish attack. Eschenbach falsely assumed that I was party to Paul’s snide, when my response to Paul’s comment bombing is proof that I was not party to it. As explained in my original up-thread.
In fact I have far better things to do than to keep responding to your insidious and psychotic attempts to tar me with matters that already been dealt with up-thread, so goodbye please.
Ulric, >>Eschenbach falsely assumed that I was party to Paul’s snide, when my response to Paul’s comment bombing is proof that I was not party to it. As explained in my original up-thread.
It is beyond me to understand how your comment to Paul was not some kind of gossip about other people who are doing something that you apparently understand “because you are a better psychologist than willis”, which I totally cannot understand at all because you are using language that is unfamiliar to me. It does though seem like you are pointing at those people with your use of language.
And how do you know that my reply to Paul wasn’t aimed directly back at Paul? After all he was comment bombing.
Probably because I am 61, was not born yesterday and all you can do is imagine you can fob me off with what amount to lies about your behaviour where supposedly in response to a comment you did not understand you have decided you knew he was comment bombing and you are the better psychologist for the remark you made. How is that supposed to make sense even to an 8 year old??
“all you can do is imagine you can fob me off with what amount to lies about your behaviour”
I have not told a single lie, and you know where you can stuff your accusations.
“in response to a comment you did not understand you have decided you knew he was comment bombing”
Actually that was what struck me at the time, he was whinging about comment bombers while comment bombing my comment, it was the other garbage that I didn’t quite get at the time. You do like spinning yarns don’t you.
False accusers, the harder they come, the harder they fall.
I think you are a liar. Willis said as far as he recalled blah blah, and you said you could not trust his word. Then when we talked about that you strangely said not trusting his word included the idea he could have a faulty memory???. Quite clearly you accused him of lying he could not recall those details and then you get all weasel worded about it and want to run crying to the moderator because he told you to get stuffed. Time and time again you make silly comments about me like you have never had adult interaction in your life and yet if anybody should mention your behaviour you run crying to mummy and daddy to help you. Whatever is going on with you is a bid odd.
And with that, I’m closing the thread, because quite frankly I’m tired of this food fight that Ulric has started with Willis and silverfoxfinland.