The Experiment: Capitalism versus Socialism

Paul Driessen writes:

University of Delaware climatology professor (and amateur history buff) David Legates offers some fascinating insights into a persuasive socio-economic experiment. His analysis could provide handy intellectual ammunition for ongoing battles between free enterprise-oriented Republicans and committed socialists in the Democratic camp.

What if we could destroy a country’s political and economic fabric through a natural disaster – or a war – and then rebuild one half of it using capitalism as its base, while the other rebuilds on a socialist foundation? David wonders. Let the virtues of each system work their magic, and then see where the two new countries are after fifty years. Actually, he says, we’ve already performed The Experiment. It’s post-war Germany – and the outcome ought to end the debate over which system is better.


The Experiment:  Capitalism versus Socialism

What if we could have an experiment to compare the two systems? Wait – we already did.

David R. Legates

Experimentation is a major tool in the scientist’s arsenal. We can put the same strain of bacteria into two Petri dishes, for example, and compare the relative effects of two different antibiotics.

What if we could do the same with economic systems? We could take a country and destroy its political and economic fabric through, say, a natural disaster or widespread pestilence – or a war. War is the ultimate political and economic cleansing agent. Its full devastation can send a country back almost to the beginning of civilization.

We could then take this war-torn country and divide it into two parts. It would have similar people, similar climate, similar potential trading partners, similar geography – but one part is rebuilt using capitalism as its base, while the other rebuilds using socialism and its principles. We’d let the virtues of each system play out and see where these two new countries would be after, say, fifty years.

Don’t you wonder what the outcome might be? Well, as it turns out, we have already performed The Experiment. It’s post-war Germany.

Following the devastation of World War II, Germany was split into two parts. The German Federal Republic, or West Germany, was rebuilt in the image of the western allies and a capitalist legal-political-economic system.  By contrast, the German Democratic Republic, or East Germany, was reconstructed using the socialist/communist principles championed by the Soviet Union. The Experiment pitted the market economy of the West against the command economy of the East.

On the western side, considering what’s being taught in our schools, one might expect that “greedy capitalism” would create a state where a few people became the rich elite, while the vast majority were left as deprived masses. Socialism, by contrast, promised East Germany the best that life had to offer, through rights guaranteed by the state, including “human rights” to employment and living wages, time for rest and leisure, health care and elder care, and guaranteed housing, education and cultural programs.

So the Petri dishes were set, and The Experiment began. In 1990, after just 45 years, The Experiment abruptly and surprisingly ended – with reunification back into a single country. How did it work out?

In West Germany, capitalism rebuilt the devastated country into a political and economic power in Europe, rivaled only by its former enemy, Great Britain. Instead of creating a rich 1% and a poor 99%, West Germans thrived: average West Germans were considerably wealthier than their Eastern counterparts. The country developed economically, and its people enjoyed lives with all the pleasures that wealth, modern technologies and quality free time could provide.

By contrast, East Germany’s socialist policies created a state that fell woefully behind. Its people were much poorer; property ownership was virtually non-existent amid a collectivist regime; food and material goods were scarce and expensive, available mostly to Communist Party elites; spies were everywhere, and people were summarily arrested and jailed; the state pretended to pay its workers, and they pretended to work. A wall of concrete, barbed wire and guard towers was built to separate the two halves of Berlin – and keep disgruntled Eastern citizens from defecting to the West. Many who tried to leave were shot.

By the time of reunification, productivity in East Germany was barely 70% of that in West Germany. The West boasted large, vibrant industries and other highly productive sectors, while dirty antiquated factories and outmoded farming methods dominated the East. Even staples like butter, eggs and chicken – abundant and affordable in West Germany – were twice as expensive in the eastern “workers’ paradise.”

Coffee was seven times more expensive, while gasoline and laundry detergent were more than 2½ times more expensive. Luxury items, like automobiles and men’s suits were twice as expensive, color televisions five times more costly. About the only staple that was cheaper in East Germany were potatoes, which could be distilled into vodka, so that lower caste East Germans could commiserate better with their abundant Russian comrades.

Moreover, state-guaranteed health care in the East did not translate into a healthier society. In 1990, life expectancy in the West was about 3½ years longer than in the East for men, and more than 2½ years longer for women. Studies found that unfavorable working conditions, psychological reactions to political suppression, differences in cardiovascular risk factors and lifestyles, and lower standards of medical technology in East Germany were largely responsible for their lower health standards.

The socialist mentality of full employment for everyone led to more women working in the East than in the West. This pressure resulted in better childcare facilities in East Germany, as mothers there returned to work sooner after giving birth and were more inclined to work full-time – or more compelled to work, to put food on the table, which meant they had to work full-time and run the household. This also meant East German children had far less contact with their parents and families, even as West Germans became convinced that children fared better under their mothers’ loving care than growing up in nurseries.

As the education system in East Germany was deeply rooted in socialism, the state ran an extensive network of schools that indoctrinated children into the socialist system from just after their birth to the university level. While it’s true that today East Germans perform better at STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) studies than their Western counterparts, that may be explained in part by the influx of numerous poorly educated immigrants to former West German areas, and the extensive money invested in the eastern region since reunification.

However, schools of the East were not intended to establish creative thinking, which results in creativity and innovation. Rather, they were authoritarian and rigid, encouraging collective group-think and consensus ideas, rather than fostering outside-the-box thinking, novel philosophies and enhanced productivity. Thus, East German technology was slow to develop and students were often overqualified for available jobs.

Did the East gain any advantage? Nudism was more prevalent in the East, if that was your thing.  Personal interaction was higher too, because telephones and other technologies were lacking. But even though East Germany was much better off than other Soviet satellite countries (a tribute to innate German resourcefulness), East German socialism offered few advantages over its capitalist western counterpart.  In fact, in the years since reunification, homogenization of Germany has been slow, due largely to the legacy of years lived under socialist domination, where any work ethic was unrewarded, even repressed.

Freedom was the single most important ingredient that caused West Germany to succeed. Freedom is the elixir that fuels innovation, supports a diversity of thought, and allows people to become who they want to be, not what the state demands they must be. When the government guarantees equality of outcomes, it also stifles the creativity, diversity, ingenuity and reward systems that allow people and countries to grow, develop and prosper. The Experiment has proven this.

These days in the United States, however, forgetful, unobservant and ideological politicians are again touting the supposed benefits of socialism. Government-provided health and elder care, free tuition, paid day care and pre-school education, guaranteed jobs and wages are all peddled by candidates who feel government can and should care for us from cradle to grave. They apparently think East German socialism is preferable to West German capitalism. Have they learned nothing from The Experiment?

A friend of mine believes capitalism is greedy and evil – and socialism, if “properly implemented,” will take us forward to realizing a better future. I counter that The Experiment proves society is doomed to mediocrity at best under autocratic socialism. Indeed, those who turn toward the Siren call of socialism always crash upon its rocks. But my friend assures me: “Trust me, this time it will be different.”

That’s what they always say. Perhaps Venezuela and Cuba are finally making socialism work?


David R. Legates, PhD, CCM, is a Professor of Climatology at the University of Delaware in Newark, Delaware. His views do not represent those of the University of Delaware.

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Steve from Rockwood
September 24, 2016 4:13 pm

There needs to be a better definition of socialism because it is interchanged with Communism when Capitalist thinkers want to make a point and Utopia when Socialist thinkers want to make a point.
Is Canada a socialist country with “free” medicare, employment insurance, provincially owned alcohol stores?
Is Norway a socialist country with a government owned / controlled oil industry?
How about the US where more people collect government subsidies than pay federal tax?
The socialist criticisers point to the 3-4 worst performing countries in the world (East Germany, North Korea). How about China? Is China socialism, communism, success or failure?

SMC
Reply to  Steve from Rockwood
September 24, 2016 4:33 pm

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun: socialism
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
synonyms: leftism, welfarism;
radicalism, progressivism, social democracy; communism, Marxism, labor movement
•policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
•(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.
com·mu·nism
/ˈkämyəˌnizəm/
noun: communism; noun: Communism; plural noun: Communisms
a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

markl
Reply to  Steve from Rockwood
September 24, 2016 5:59 pm

Steve from Rockwood commented: “…There needs to be a better definition of socialism…”
There are no/none/nada/zilch countries that don’t provide some sort of social benefits from the government to the people. There are also no/none/nada/zilch countries that control 100% of the business and industry and don’t allow private property ownership. We call the US a “Capitalist” country yet it has huge social benefit programs controlled by the government. Capitalists want less government regulation and Socialists want more. Pick your own definition but I guarantee that no country will match it. The one fact is Capitalist countries prosper and pure Socialist countries rarely do.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve from Rockwood
September 24, 2016 9:16 pm

CHina is more capitalist than socialist

John Robertson
September 24, 2016 5:26 pm

Perhaps the fuzzy borders could be better defined as Statism versus Free Citizens.
Or even more simply, Host versus Parasite.
Every past civilization in which the parasites have risen to power has ended very badly for their hosts.
We are living the age of fat and stupid,thanks to the wealth our grandparents built and prolonged by mortaging our grandchildrens futures.
Bottom line ,once more than one citizen in ten is intent on living large at the expense of his neighbours, society decays.
Government,while it may enable civilization, does not come without cost.
Cost exceeds benefit?
Citizens decline to contribute.
Bureaucrats steal more, eventually Democracy devolves into Kleptocracy.
Canada has passed 50% tax on productive people, at 48% on the “average income earner”.
Enjoy the Decline.

September 24, 2016 5:36 pm

There is a way to stop the love affair the young have with socialism dead in its tracks, and I would live to see this happen:
Consider that a university is pretty much a closed entity. There is little ‘trade’ between colleges and other institutions. Students perform work for their professors (papers, exams, etc), and are paid for that work in the form of grades. A state needs to be innovative and declare that one school will demonstrate how socialism can be properly deployed. The school will adopt socialism. Student work for each class will be combined, graded, and every student will receive the same grade. Every professor, since they all do equivalent work, will receive the same salary (including the football coach). In fact, students should demand that states provide them such a school.
Of course, this situation is far simpler than what would be required in society as a whole, so it should be very easy for liberal college students to demonstrate how great socialism is. It should be equally clear that if students can not make socialism work in that limited environment, then it can not possibly work in a more complex society.
Any bets what the outcome would be?

SMC
Reply to  Jtom
September 24, 2016 5:59 pm

Bad Idea. We already have way too many Liberal Arts majors that think they’re smarter than everyone else.

MarkW
September 24, 2016 8:53 pm

Readd the mission statement. WUWT has always been about whatever interests Anthony.
In my experience, those who complain the loudest when ever a particular topic comes up, are usually those on the losing end of the debate.

Louis
September 24, 2016 11:13 pm

What I don’t understand is why Sanders supporters trust big government so explicitly but distrust big business. Aren’t both run by imperfect human beings? Why should we believe that those who spend their lives in government, like the Clintons, are less greedy than those who run a business? If a business cheats its customers, it will eventually have fewer customers. In addition, customers can appeal to government to reign in a greedy business and strengthen consumer laws to protect them. But who can we appeal to when it’s a misbehaving government that needs to be reigned in?
There are fewer choices with government than with business since government is a monopoly. So I just don’t understand why anyone would want to make the central government bigger or give them more power to micromanage our choices, from how much soda we can drink to what our children must be taught at school. Why would anyone, socialist or otherwise, trust government enough to give it that much unchecked central power?

Reply to  Louis
September 25, 2016 6:53 am

They’ve been exposed to government education followed by a heaping helping of university education?

Thomho
September 25, 2016 1:47 am

Good analysis
Add to East and West Germany, North and South Korea
Same sort of outcomes but as yet no reunification

Scott from Scotland
September 25, 2016 5:05 am

A few years back, I got talking to an elderly East German couple at a campsite in Italy. I was cycling with a tent, they were in an ancient VW campervan (split-screen for those that appreciate such matters). When I asked the difference between then and now, the guy says, “now, I can get in my van, and drive to this campsite without asking my government for permission.”
Was in Tirana, Albania a while later. The owner of the backpackers place I was staying, when asked about the communist days, says, “look, we were one of the stopping off points on the Silk Road’s final approaches to Venice. We have been traders for hundreds of years. Communism was a 40 year long accident.”
Anecdotal, sure, but I attach more weight to the views of people who actually lived the misery of socialism than any academic.
By the way, Enver Hoxha’s old house in the Blloku area of Tirana is now surrounded by a host of bars and nightclubs which wouldn’t look out of place in London or New York. Hope the sad f***er’s spinning in his grave.

September 25, 2016 6:48 am

Just how many times must this silly lesson be repeated before people get it?
The debate is this: As between the natural social intercourse of people or the judgment of bureaucrats, which one is better at making economic choices (for the uninitiated, the choices we speak of are the allocation of scarce resources), tap, tap, tap, index finger and thumb stroking my chin, tap, tap, tap, . . . this one is hard . . . such a question! I dunno, I give up.

SMC
Reply to  Patrick Blasz
September 25, 2016 7:19 am

There are people who will never get it. Socialism is an alluring siren call that sings to the peoples compassion and sense of fair play. It’s a Contract of Good Intentions that helps to pave the road to Hell.

MarkW
Reply to  SMC
September 26, 2016 6:33 am

There will always be those people who are convinced that they are smarter than others, therefore entitled to run other people’s lives.
Theses people, when they see others spending money or time on things that they themselves do not appreciate go into fits of outrage and start demanding that government do something about this waste.

markx
Reply to  Patrick Blasz
September 25, 2016 6:58 pm

True.
But too simplistic.
The ideal lies somewhere in between. Someone (probably bureaucrats, unfortunately) has to wield the broad brush and sketch out the general path, and someone has to regulate (ouch) how everyone proceeds down that path. Rules and laws make what we have now work. They are necessary.
‘Unfettered’ capitalism’s endpoint is simple and inevitable: One corporation would eventually own everything.

gnomish
Reply to  markx
September 25, 2016 8:10 pm

oh baloney.
when there is no way to enforce a monopoly by forcibly preventing competition or forcing ppl to buy – any little guy can offer an alternative and they do.
when american mining and coal thought they’d cornered the market and wanted to raise prices, the oil industry was born
raise the price of wood and i’ll use aluminum
charge more than i want to pay for pepsi and i’ll drink coke.
are you unfamiliar with the production end of supply?
when alcoa earned market supremacy it was because they made a commodity so cheaply (once, aluminum was more precious than gold) that now housewives wrap their garbage in it.
the nonsensical notion of somebody owning everything is a fantasy full of holes.
when the hunt bros thought they were gonna corner the market on silver- guess what happened?
guess what happens every time anybody tries to act out that delusion.
try self employment. take full responsibility for yourself. see how that will change your views.
find out if you have anything to offer that anybody wants without depending on somebody smarter than yourself to provide the ideas, tools, place to do it.
be grateful you are so exploited as you feel you are- without somebody to find something you can do that makes you worth something- you could not survive.

MarkW
Reply to  markx
September 26, 2016 6:34 am

The idea that without government, one corporation would eventually own everything is not, and never has been true.

Hunt
September 25, 2016 8:28 am

After reading the rather nicely written article and perhaps a quarter of the responses I am dismayed. Now, before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am some kind of left wing socialist who is going to deride the evil capitalists, let me assure you one and all that I am not. And for a sizable number of those commenting, before you brand me as an evil capitalist, please take a deep breath and hear me out.
Why am I dismayed? I could lead with the whole nudist digression but that’s not it (that was silly and stupid). Here goes:
A) Anyone who really thinks that there is any need to discuss the question of is capitalism a more effective economic system than communism (the actual experiment for anyone keeping track) has simply not been paying any attention over the last 50 years. Capitalism won communism lost. It is disappointing that the writer of the original article decided to blur the definitions so badly.
B) The author, by choosing to frame his support of capitalism in the context of the failed communist system did not make any attempt to address real issues facing the United States and the world. The author, and based on my sample, all of us who commented skipped past the question of state capitalism as a competing system (and now so will I). But more to the point, the author and most commenters never engaged on the question of what set of policies can make capitalism better and that is disappointing.
C) While there were comments addressing various degrees of regulation and taxation, the author and most commentators did not engage on the broad set of questions of how can capitalism deliver better results to more people. The question should not be about inequality versus equality but about how to mobilize capital to grow the economy and increase prosperity. The comment that pointed out that average net worth in the United States is $301,000 and median net worth is $45,000 is not an answer but it helps frame the question – how, in real terms, can we make meaningful improvements to both. Not focusing on real issues is disappointing.
I admit that I have offered nothing other than a critique of the article and the discussion. I recognize that is in a sense ironic. Many of us have specific ideas about what should be done to produce better results (capitalism is after all a technology and all technologies can be tuned to produce desired results). I have not offered any proposals because I do not see that this community is interested in that kind of discussion.
If I missed it tell me so. Show me the proposals. Show me how they will work. Show me that this kind of a forum can be more than a forum for polemics and that a diverse community can engage from shared values and differences to have a real discussion of what should be next.

gnomish
Reply to  Hunt
September 25, 2016 8:34 pm

heh- you almost got something right
i have no more interest in running other ppl’s affairs than i have in you running mine.
but if you really want a proposal- how about FoF?

Hunt
Reply to  gnomish
September 25, 2016 10:10 pm

Always interesting to see how people react. I am surprised that you think I have any interest in controlling your affairs (though relieved you don’t want to control mine). While some of the 67 different meanings for FoF obviously do not apply enough might that I am at a bit of a loss about your intent.
If I take the tone of your reply as an indication that you favor free and open markets let me ask if you believe that markets based on or that include decisions based on asymmetric information are acceptable? We likely both agree that markets should be free and open but differ on the most efficient way to ensure that they are.
There is a common myth that capitalism is the same as freedom. While freedom to act is indeed needed at some level for capitalism to work the extent of the freedom needed for capitalism to work is far less than I am comfortable with. The reason we have a Constitution in the United States is to protect freedom and rights. I would sooner rely on government with all its flaws to protect my freedom than to rely on capitalism to do the same. As attractive as the ideal of self reliance is, I would be slow to conclude that I could protect my freedoms against not only the government but
all those who would gain by limiting them.
What works is not always what we would like. But I for one am not so proud to think that I am so right that my own personal values will, if implemented, result in the best results for everyone.

gnomish
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 12:36 am

ok- i don’t know about common myths but i know the definition of capitalism
if we can agree that the distinguishing characteristics of capitalism are ownership (which means exclusive control of property is a right, voluntary exchange of values which is the only kind of trade that respects the right of ownership – then it should be apparent that
“how can capitalism deliver better results to more people” is entails a hidden premise that is anathema.
there is no such purpose to capitalism and there is no way that ‘regulating’ anybody else’s property can be anything but contradiction of ownership.
” how, in real terms, can we make meaningful improvements” has only one answer: ‘we’ has no rights to MY stuff or YOUR stuff or anybody else’s stuff.
you have not established the assertion that unequal accumulation of money, like catastrophic anthropogenic global warming, is any kind of problem at all.
sin embargo, you propose that “we make meaningful improvements” which is a bid to seize control of somebody else’s property, plain and simple. nope nopity nope nope.
there’s a lot of ‘we we’ waggin goin on and it’s not you deciding what you will do with your own stuff.
and so the proposal you need to hear is ‘mind your own business and keep your carrion hooks off other people’s stuff’
and capitalism is not a technology…
the ‘big ideas’ for improving the world totally disregard the nature of the individual. it is not possible to remove the individuals from the context so you can express ‘big ideas’ without resolving the important details that make it none of your business.
somehow you have overlooked the self contradiction you espouse, ‘free markets need to be regulated’,
and mobilize your own capital.comment image

Hunt
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 2:05 am

Capitalism is not a zero sum game. Different sets of policies will produce different results without taking your stuff. You have been living in a capitalist system that is surely not an example of the pure capitalism you advocate and that likely has produced more prosperity for you than would pure capitalism.
Capitalism, as good as it is, is not good in and of itself. Humans create governments and economic systems just as we create any other technologies. But we should take care not to treat any technology as perfect and somehow sacrosanct never to be challlenged or changed. While capitalism does have the characteristics you mention it is far more complex than simple ownership and exchange. Because capitalism is not the simple system that is free from human failings, left in its pure form it has been shown to produce less than maximum output (benefits). Simplistically this is the problem with unproductive accumulation of capital and it does result in everyone having less stuff. But to understand why we have to look not at a single transaction or a point in time equilibrium but at the results over time.
I understand your philosophical perspective but it is just that. I do not want economic systems that don’t work over the long haul. I am a committed capitalist but as a tool to create wealth not as an absolute dogma that would over time limit the creation of wealth. You strike me as a pragmatic person. You clearly have a strong sense of right and wrong. I find it hard to believe that you would hold fast to a method of production or farming or providing service to your customers that was going to bankrupt you. Even if it was a method you had thought was right. Trust me, you can be a capitalist and ask how to get better results for more people.

MarkW
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 6:39 am

What do you think government regulations are, if not running other people’s lives?

MarkW
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 6:41 am

Information asymmetry exists, and will always exist. Your mistake is thinking that government intervention will decrease this asymmetry.
Freedom means capitalism. When people are free to do what they want, capitalism (better known as the free market) is what results.
Capitalism is not technology, technology is a tool that can be used by capitalism, or any other market system.

MarkW
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 6:43 am

If you think government regulations create wealth, then you simply have not been paying attention to history.
Your idea that thanks to government regulation we are wealthier than we would of been is 100% false, built by those who believe that they know more than others.

MarkW
Reply to  Hunt
September 26, 2016 6:38 am

Your mistake is thinking that the US is still capitalistic. There are many problems in the US, and the vast majority of them are caused by government interference in the marketplace.
The best way to mobilize capital so that it benefits people, is to get government out of the way.

gallopingcamel
Reply to  MarkW
September 26, 2016 6:52 am

You are 150% correct Mark. The best way we can mobilize capital, especially human capital, is to get the government out of the way, and allow child labor. The interference in the labor market by the government preventing the use of child labor is interfering with growth.

Hunt
Reply to  MarkW
September 27, 2016 6:13 am

OK – I get the cool, easy rhetorical play. Define your terms and then use them to prove a point. The market is good, capitalism works perfectly, monopolies cannot exist, I get it and it is a beautiful, easy vision and solution to all our problems. The problem is that it is founded on nothing more than that tissue of definitions. It ignores history that goes back even before Smith published The Wealth of Nations. It ignores human nature, culture, and works only as a beautiful fantasy.
Regulation when it goes too far, when it is about right, and when it is needed is a good discussion. However, the idea that all regulation is bad is simply proof that there is a profound lack of understanding of economics and the integrity and mental discipline to put the time and energy into learning a field of study to even the level of competent conversation. If you don’t understand the inherent inefficiencies and problems with the version of capitalism you espouse, then you don’t know enough to carry on a meaningful discussion much less defend your ideas.
Never the less, this discussion is clearly my fault. By violating one of Murphy’s laws “never argue with a fool because those watching may not be able to tell which is which” here we are. I had hoped that there might be the opportunity for a real, substantial discussion. I am reminded yet again that much of the Internet is simply based on shared fantasies that have no firm connection with reality.

dan no longer in CA
September 25, 2016 8:38 am

“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
Sir Winston Churchill

Zeke
September 25, 2016 10:50 am

In the free market, the world has seen how all of the things which were once luxury items and rare commodities have been made efficiently, affordably and plentifully available to all.
Like pickup trucks which women like to drive.
EPA comment period on CAFE standards for cars and trucks ends Monday.
This is an easy form to use.
“Send an Official Comment to the EPA
Regulations from the White House are making cars and trucks thousands of dollars more expensive. These regulations, called corporate average fuel economy standards (CAFE standards), are jacking up the cost of manufacturing cars, and manufacturers will pass those costs onto American families. Tell the Obama administration to repeal these harmful regulations!”
http://americanenergyalliance.org/cafe-standards/

Zeke
Reply to  Zeke
September 25, 2016 10:52 am

Just try to do this monstrous legislation through congress, not a bureaucracy like the EPA!

jarro2783
September 25, 2016 3:00 pm

I will never cease to be amazed by the American’s stigma against free health care and education. Here in Australia we have “almost” free healthcare and education, and it’s pretty good. The almost is the problem, take the private companies out of the equation and it would be a whole lot better. Healthcare being such a universal need, but incomes being so spread apart, there is no way that everyone can afford to look after themselves, and in fact it is the poor that need healthcare the most, who can least afford it.
It is exactly the same as for energy, we all need it, and hindered access impacts the poor the most. Maybe you can afford $200/w in health insurance, or a $50,000 operation, but not everyone can.

markl
Reply to  jarro2783
September 25, 2016 4:30 pm

Jarryd Beck commented: “…I will never cease to be amazed by the American’s stigma against free health care and education….”
You may cease to be amazed if you understand the facts. Since 1986 by law no one in America is refused medical treatment by an emergency clinic regardless of their citizenship status or ability to pay. Did you know that? People are able to get immediate urgent care just by showing up at the hospital/clinic. If they are unable to pay they don’t. “Free” education is not free and in America you can get financial help up to full tuition, books, and housing to attend college if you are low enough income and qualify.

gnomish
Reply to  jarro2783
September 25, 2016 8:29 pm

heh – hey- i NEED – therefore GIMME, you selfish bastich!
the more you don’t give me the more i need so you’re in arrears!
my NEED is a blank check on YOU.
if you got it and i need it- you know you have to provide it to me at your expense, right?
i know you support that in principle because you just ranted all over about it.
so just give up the wallet and go make some more cuz there are lots of other needy ppl you gotta service.
some of them need other things than money, so bring some lube.

MarkW
Reply to  jarro2783
September 26, 2016 6:45 am

It’s easy to understand why people like free stuff. What’s hard to understand is how easily some people become convinced that it’s ok to steal, just because they feel they need something.

markx
September 25, 2016 6:51 pm

Capitalism is a great system.
But those who think it should be ‘unfettered’ are not thinking, and are deluding themselves.
What we have now only works due to various laws and rules and conventions: Property ownership, currency, sales contracts etc.
‘Unfettered’ capitalism’s endpoint is simple and inevitable: One corporation would eventually own everything.
We are well on the way down that path right now:
Free markets at work. 10 corporations own all the world’s major food brands:
Massive corporations squash entrepreneurial diversity and make it nearly impossible for startups and small businesses to compete.
https://food.good.is/articles/food-brands-owners?utm_source=bw&utm_medium=FB&utm_campaign=pd
There are now some 150 multi-national companies, which account for nearly half the total capitalisation of all firms. Three quarters of these belong to the financial sector.
http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/tesfatsi/RethinkingEconomicsUsingComplexityTheory.DHelbingAKirman2013.pdf

gnomish
Reply to  markx
September 25, 2016 8:18 pm

and you get all your food at which grocery store?
you’d be shocked to know that there are alternatives?
your limited notion is that of an utter dependent with no self reliance.
you’re a kid, still. a dependent
don’t even try to blame anybody but your own self.
it’s not a ‘we’ problem. if you fail to survive on your own merits – there is no problem.

markx
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 2:11 am

“…you get all your food at which grocery store..”
You provide a perfect example.
You may remember when every block had its own little corner store. Great system. If Smitty was charging too much for the milk, you could walk across the road and round the corner to the next one run by Jonesy.
Great for the community too, all these little family stores keeping money going around and around in a community. Then there were also the butchers, bakers etc….
But, along came the big supermarkets; Cheaper, all in one shopping, one stop. Killed the lot. That’s competition at work: someone come up with a better model, and kills off the old system. Just as the oil industry squeezed out the coal guys, and the aluminum guys squeeze into the timber guy’s space. Competition works it out, and big business is better at competition than the little guy.
“…this is something you call capitalism…?”
Yep. It just happens to be the capitalism we have got right now.
Sure. It is a wonderful idea to go back to an earlier era where we all grew and hunted our own food.
It could work, if a whole lotta people are suddenly going to be satisfied with a lot less. (AND I’d be happier, and we’d all be better off if we were!)
But. It ain’t gonna happen.
You either put structures in place to restrict the corporate takeovers, to prevent the mergers and great monopolies arising, to ensure the family can still have their chicken run in a suburban area, or we all end up working for the same company and buying all of our needs there.

gnomish
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 3:42 am

“You may remember when every block had its own little corner store.”
i do- i remember when bottle recycling was done by ambitious volunteer children, too — until that was made illegal…lol
i remember i could get a hamburger or a pack of cigarettes or a gallon of gas for 3 silver dimes.
by golly i still can get that pack of cigarettes for that – but now i get 2 gallons of gas and 3 hamburgers.
somehow i’m not upset over it.
i’m pretty sure the prices of some things have gone up, though-
https://www.amazon.com/Weaver-Buggy-Whip/dp/B00DL3ZU76
heh- wait’ll the corporations move in on that!

gnomish
Reply to  markx
September 25, 2016 8:23 pm

i can go out tomorrow and buy half a cow, pay cash, and fill my freezer.
i can go out tomorrow and buy all kinds of vegetables- again, for cash with no receipt from a real person who grew the stuff.
i can go out in the yard and catch one of the chickens.
you wouldn’t know anything about how the stuff got to the grocery store, would you?
but you think you know something? you think you can hold forth like a boss on how everybody else should live but you can’t manage survival without somebody picking up your slack.
and you want tight control of them,, right? cuz you know your life depends on those who CAN – because you know you can not.

markx
Reply to  gnomish
September 25, 2016 10:10 pm

gnomish September 25, 2016 at 8:23 pm
You will find, Mr Gnomish, that with time, big business, with their controls over government and their wonderful concerns for your health, and their access to finance and favorable courts, will dictate health and safety rules to ensure you cannot buy that half a cow, and cannot farm that chicken in your yard. They’ll even dictate where you can grow vegetables, and whether or not you can water them.
The great irony is for the diehard free-marketeers, is that you will actually need rules to ensure that does not happen.
You continually underestimate the power and focus of the great corporations, and play right into their hands.
Why corporate special interests created modern libertarianism
By David Akadjian Sunday Sep 25, 2016 • 11:46 PM SEAST
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/9/25/1572955/-Why-corporate-special-interests-created-modern-libertarianism?detail=facebook

By the way… I am in the business of large scale intensive agriculture. Perhaps you do not realize the extent to which great food corporations dictate prices, payment terms, and conditions to the suppliers. And it is rapidly getting worse.

gnomish
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 1:05 am

“with their controls over government and their wonderful concerns for your health, and their access to finance and favorable courts, will dictate health and safety rules to ensure you cannot buy that half a cow”
this is something you call capitalism? srsly?
but you are right about one thing – i do not realize the extent to which great food corporations dictate prices, payment terms, and conditions to the suppliers.
i ignore them completely.
i’ll counter that you may not have a grasp on the economics of forcing a few hundred million individuals to obey all day every day. did you think there were enough goons to manage that?.
people who obey may eat recycled food, but the individuals who make their own decisions will have their steak. you can’t stop them.
everyone doesn’t live in the same bubble with daily kos.
as for intensive agriculture- do you know why they don’t want to stop illegal immigrants in california?
most of what i eat never got driven over by a john deere – can you imagine?
the peppers, tomatoes, lettuce, carrots, celery, chicken, pork ribs, steak…
even so- the fact is that automation and intensive culture makes things be so cheap i can’t compete by growing at home. until that should happen- i’m very happy with it. if it does happen, then i can supply my own. it’s not rocket surgery. sun shines, rain falls. how’s that gonna be controlled by the courts?

gnomish
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 1:11 am

oh- jeez- i forgot a great example
can u say ‘humboldt county’?
all the king’s horses and all the king’s men can’t do squat about 1 species of weed in one single county.
you can go out and buy as much of that as you like any day, too.

markx
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 2:23 am

Humboldt county.
Independent, I guess, but perhaps not the most thriving example of successful free market capitalism: sounds to me like it may work with a few more rules, and a bit more structure:
The greatest risk posed to growers is the theft of their crop by other growers or groups of armed local thugs, both in and out of uniform….This is the poorest county in the state of California. About 40% of the population here is qualified for government supported health care. And they need it. Especially the pot growers…….
The job market is about as sick as the health care situation. Took me seven weeks to find work and I have ten solid years of experience and excellent qualifications….

http://www.3ammagazine.com/politica/2002_jun/pot_county.html

gnomish
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 3:31 am

i didn’t mean to submit that as an example of free market but rather as an example of what the innumerable prohibitions, armed enforcers and unfavorable courts can do to stop somebody who doesn’t want to obey.
the commodity has been banned with the full force of the law.
how did that work out for those canutes?
take some of the things in that article with a grain of salt, too. the locals do not want tourists or competitors.
but the fact is you can pay off a mortgage on your land with part of one harvest. it’s not smart to do that- but times are a changin – the disobedients have overwhelmed the system of controls.
i think you have to know that nobody is gonna build a walmart in the hills, right?
supermarkets operate on a margin of 2 -5%, i’m told – but to do that they need to move volume.
that can happen in a densely populated area but most of the country is not densely populated.
heck- most of new york is rural.
where i live, there isn’t a payphone or walmart or fast food franchise
it’s a different world from what you were describing.

markx
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 5:07 am

90% of the population of the developed world don’t live like that.
All are in the cities.
Come to think of it… ya got a bit of space left there? Sounds like it might be time to move there! 🙂

MarkW
Reply to  gnomish
September 26, 2016 6:48 am

Those who like to live in cities, keep telling me that the best thing about it is all the options available.
Now markx tells me that they need socialism in cities because there is only one grocery store, one restaurant, one movie theater, in his entire city.

markx
Reply to  gnomish
September 27, 2016 1:44 am

Nah, MarkW… you miss the point. (You apparently think in terms of a very rigid dichotomy)
We have capitalism.
But not the version you think we have.
We need capitalism.
But not the version you think we need.

MarkW
Reply to  markx
September 26, 2016 6:46 am

You keep saying that. It’s almost as if you actually believe it.
Just because you have been taught lies, doesn’t make those lies true.

Peter Hyatt
September 27, 2016 9:59 am

The study should conclude at Reunification.
I’ve learned a lot from the president of the United states.
1. If you have less guns and more people who’s ideology is “things go boom!”, we will be safer.
2. White people are to blame for everything. They think they built stuff, but they lie.
3. 3rd world corruption should be imported to the US to improve the US.
4. Foods with all ingredients are better than soups with few, choice select ingredients.
5. When Islamic terrorist confesses motive for murder, he is wrong, and president knows better.
6. When he and Hillary steals, it is for my good. When I steal, it is for my bad.
7. Guys like Mohammad founded America, not those dead white guys.
8. Rape is not rape, it is cultural approximation of gender.
9. A boy is a girl if he feels girlie.
10. Air conditioners are more dangerous than men with things that go boom!

Peter Hyatt
September 27, 2016 10:01 am

I forgot to add this:
Venezuela is actually a rich, prospering nation because of socialism.
I learned this too!

Rudderhead
October 3, 2016 2:32 pm

No confirmation bias on this site then! The Soviet Union and its satellites were just as conservative as the US – Stalin was a tsar. The Democrats are wishy-washy Republicans. The USA is a deeply reactionary imperial power and all these comments underline the complete lack of understanding the american people and their right-wing acolytes abroad have of reality. The US empire is crumbling and you have NO understanding of that.