The Experiment: Capitalism versus Socialism

Paul Driessen writes:

University of Delaware climatology professor (and amateur history buff) David Legates offers some fascinating insights into a persuasive socio-economic experiment. His analysis could provide handy intellectual ammunition for ongoing battles between free enterprise-oriented Republicans and committed socialists in the Democratic camp.

What if we could destroy a country’s political and economic fabric through a natural disaster – or a war – and then rebuild one half of it using capitalism as its base, while the other rebuilds on a socialist foundation? David wonders. Let the virtues of each system work their magic, and then see where the two new countries are after fifty years. Actually, he says, we’ve already performed The Experiment. It’s post-war Germany – and the outcome ought to end the debate over which system is better.


The Experiment:  Capitalism versus Socialism

What if we could have an experiment to compare the two systems? Wait – we already did.

David R. Legates

Experimentation is a major tool in the scientist’s arsenal. We can put the same strain of bacteria into two Petri dishes, for example, and compare the relative effects of two different antibiotics.

What if we could do the same with economic systems? We could take a country and destroy its political and economic fabric through, say, a natural disaster or widespread pestilence – or a war. War is the ultimate political and economic cleansing agent. Its full devastation can send a country back almost to the beginning of civilization.

We could then take this war-torn country and divide it into two parts. It would have similar people, similar climate, similar potential trading partners, similar geography – but one part is rebuilt using capitalism as its base, while the other rebuilds using socialism and its principles. We’d let the virtues of each system play out and see where these two new countries would be after, say, fifty years.

Don’t you wonder what the outcome might be? Well, as it turns out, we have already performed The Experiment. It’s post-war Germany.

Following the devastation of World War II, Germany was split into two parts. The German Federal Republic, or West Germany, was rebuilt in the image of the western allies and a capitalist legal-political-economic system.  By contrast, the German Democratic Republic, or East Germany, was reconstructed using the socialist/communist principles championed by the Soviet Union. The Experiment pitted the market economy of the West against the command economy of the East.

On the western side, considering what’s being taught in our schools, one might expect that “greedy capitalism” would create a state where a few people became the rich elite, while the vast majority were left as deprived masses. Socialism, by contrast, promised East Germany the best that life had to offer, through rights guaranteed by the state, including “human rights” to employment and living wages, time for rest and leisure, health care and elder care, and guaranteed housing, education and cultural programs.

So the Petri dishes were set, and The Experiment began. In 1990, after just 45 years, The Experiment abruptly and surprisingly ended – with reunification back into a single country. How did it work out?

In West Germany, capitalism rebuilt the devastated country into a political and economic power in Europe, rivaled only by its former enemy, Great Britain. Instead of creating a rich 1% and a poor 99%, West Germans thrived: average West Germans were considerably wealthier than their Eastern counterparts. The country developed economically, and its people enjoyed lives with all the pleasures that wealth, modern technologies and quality free time could provide.

By contrast, East Germany’s socialist policies created a state that fell woefully behind. Its people were much poorer; property ownership was virtually non-existent amid a collectivist regime; food and material goods were scarce and expensive, available mostly to Communist Party elites; spies were everywhere, and people were summarily arrested and jailed; the state pretended to pay its workers, and they pretended to work. A wall of concrete, barbed wire and guard towers was built to separate the two halves of Berlin – and keep disgruntled Eastern citizens from defecting to the West. Many who tried to leave were shot.

By the time of reunification, productivity in East Germany was barely 70% of that in West Germany. The West boasted large, vibrant industries and other highly productive sectors, while dirty antiquated factories and outmoded farming methods dominated the East. Even staples like butter, eggs and chicken – abundant and affordable in West Germany – were twice as expensive in the eastern “workers’ paradise.”

Coffee was seven times more expensive, while gasoline and laundry detergent were more than 2½ times more expensive. Luxury items, like automobiles and men’s suits were twice as expensive, color televisions five times more costly. About the only staple that was cheaper in East Germany were potatoes, which could be distilled into vodka, so that lower caste East Germans could commiserate better with their abundant Russian comrades.

Moreover, state-guaranteed health care in the East did not translate into a healthier society. In 1990, life expectancy in the West was about 3½ years longer than in the East for men, and more than 2½ years longer for women. Studies found that unfavorable working conditions, psychological reactions to political suppression, differences in cardiovascular risk factors and lifestyles, and lower standards of medical technology in East Germany were largely responsible for their lower health standards.

The socialist mentality of full employment for everyone led to more women working in the East than in the West. This pressure resulted in better childcare facilities in East Germany, as mothers there returned to work sooner after giving birth and were more inclined to work full-time – or more compelled to work, to put food on the table, which meant they had to work full-time and run the household. This also meant East German children had far less contact with their parents and families, even as West Germans became convinced that children fared better under their mothers’ loving care than growing up in nurseries.

As the education system in East Germany was deeply rooted in socialism, the state ran an extensive network of schools that indoctrinated children into the socialist system from just after their birth to the university level. While it’s true that today East Germans perform better at STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) studies than their Western counterparts, that may be explained in part by the influx of numerous poorly educated immigrants to former West German areas, and the extensive money invested in the eastern region since reunification.

However, schools of the East were not intended to establish creative thinking, which results in creativity and innovation. Rather, they were authoritarian and rigid, encouraging collective group-think and consensus ideas, rather than fostering outside-the-box thinking, novel philosophies and enhanced productivity. Thus, East German technology was slow to develop and students were often overqualified for available jobs.

Did the East gain any advantage? Nudism was more prevalent in the East, if that was your thing.  Personal interaction was higher too, because telephones and other technologies were lacking. But even though East Germany was much better off than other Soviet satellite countries (a tribute to innate German resourcefulness), East German socialism offered few advantages over its capitalist western counterpart.  In fact, in the years since reunification, homogenization of Germany has been slow, due largely to the legacy of years lived under socialist domination, where any work ethic was unrewarded, even repressed.

Freedom was the single most important ingredient that caused West Germany to succeed. Freedom is the elixir that fuels innovation, supports a diversity of thought, and allows people to become who they want to be, not what the state demands they must be. When the government guarantees equality of outcomes, it also stifles the creativity, diversity, ingenuity and reward systems that allow people and countries to grow, develop and prosper. The Experiment has proven this.

These days in the United States, however, forgetful, unobservant and ideological politicians are again touting the supposed benefits of socialism. Government-provided health and elder care, free tuition, paid day care and pre-school education, guaranteed jobs and wages are all peddled by candidates who feel government can and should care for us from cradle to grave. They apparently think East German socialism is preferable to West German capitalism. Have they learned nothing from The Experiment?

A friend of mine believes capitalism is greedy and evil – and socialism, if “properly implemented,” will take us forward to realizing a better future. I counter that The Experiment proves society is doomed to mediocrity at best under autocratic socialism. Indeed, those who turn toward the Siren call of socialism always crash upon its rocks. But my friend assures me: “Trust me, this time it will be different.”

That’s what they always say. Perhaps Venezuela and Cuba are finally making socialism work?


David R. Legates, PhD, CCM, is a Professor of Climatology at the University of Delaware in Newark, Delaware. His views do not represent those of the University of Delaware.

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The Original Mike M
September 23, 2016 3:43 pm

Best explanation why we must never allow state enforced socialism =

Kalifornia Kook
Reply to  The Original Mike M
September 23, 2016 3:53 pm

Wow. Great video.
We do need to be careful to distinguish between capitalism and crony capitalism. The later is little different in outcome from socialism. More and more of what happens in the US is crony capitalism, with bureaucrats gifting cronies with contracts and favorable regulations to help them get ahead or stay ahead.

PiperPaul
Reply to  Kalifornia Kook
September 23, 2016 4:17 pm

+97

Reply to  Kalifornia Kook
September 23, 2016 5:09 pm

A lot of the crony capitalism comes from those who support or are supported by those pushing socialism. For example, the entire green economy.

Gabro
Reply to  Kalifornia Kook
September 23, 2016 5:13 pm

Crony capitalism is fueled by the Washington-Wall Street Axis of Evil.
It privatizes gains but socializes losses because the fix is in. The crony crooks give Dodd and Frank money to pass supposed reforms, easily evaded by smart lawyers, instead of breaking up the banks too big to fail.

Eugene WR Gallun
Reply to  Kalifornia Kook
September 23, 2016 7:49 pm

Kalifornia Kook —
Under the Progressives, particularly under O’Bummer, what we have had is “crony socialism”. The people cutting these deals on the government side are socialists. Their agenda is socialism (really their agenda is money and power).
Eugene WR Gallun

Mark T
Reply to  Kalifornia Kook
September 23, 2016 9:41 pm

There us no such thing as “crony capitalism.” Once the “crony” part happens, it becomes fascism – only in a system in which the government picks winners and losers does “crony” have any meaning, which is decidedly NOT part of capitalism. The phrase was likely coined by collectivists in an attempt to smear capitalism with the failures of socialism.

The Original Mike M
Reply to  Kalifornia Kook
September 24, 2016 9:33 am

I prefer the term “capital cronyism” because the other has nothing to do with free market capitalism, just the opposite – a market that became enslaved by government masters.

Gabro
Reply to  The Original Mike M
September 23, 2016 5:23 pm

As Maggie Thatcher was wont to say, pretty soon you run out of other people’s money.
These comments miss family Courtney, staunch defenders of their vision of socialism and detractors of the Iron Lady.

MarkW
Reply to  Gabro
September 24, 2016 8:43 pm

The COurtney’s were quick to claim that socialism increased freedom.
Yes, those who have been freed from the need to create stuff that other people want to buy, have a lot more freedom. Those who are forced to pay for the “freedoms” of the priveledged, have less freedom.

Ipso Phakto
Reply to  The Original Mike M
September 23, 2016 8:14 pm

Ha! I was scrolling down to post that same video. Love seeing Friedman school Donahue and audience members.

dan no longer in CA
Reply to  The Original Mike M
September 23, 2016 8:15 pm

Excellent video, thanks for sharing.
The difference between ‘developed’ countries and ‘underdeveloped’ countries is the government. Good government allows development and bad government doesn’t. That may be due to incompetence, greed, or the need to have power over other people. This is why the taxpayers of ‘developed’ countries giving cash to the leaders of ‘underdeveloped’ countries will never work. The government just keeps it. Look at Hong Kong compared to mainland China before the merger. Look at N. compared to S. Korea. Israel compared to Syria. Endless examples….

Tom in Florida
Reply to  dan no longer in CA
September 24, 2016 5:45 am

Limited government allows development, not good government. But perhaps when it comes to government, limited and good are the same.

Kalifornia Kook
September 23, 2016 3:47 pm

+1

commieBob
September 23, 2016 3:51 pm

The reason I call myself commieBob is that I like (and can take advantage of) Canadian medicare. The statistics say I will live three years longer north of the border as compared with south of the border.
Germany does even better and it’s way more socialist than either Canada or America.
We can easily say that a command economy doesn’t work. We can also say that laissez faire capitalism does not always work well. Consider the Great Depression for example.
The choice is not just between totalitarianism and laissez faire capitalism. There are lots of shades in between.
Fun fact: Did you know that America has death panels? They’re called HMOs.

Gabro
Reply to  commieBob
September 23, 2016 3:58 pm

Here in Washington State, Canadians arrive in droves to get needed medical procedures they can’t in Canada. The difference in longevity is because so many young girls get pregnant here to go on welfare, resulting in higher infant mortality. And because of our greater ethnic homogeneity. It’s not because of a lack of socialized medicine, which we now have anyway.
Laissez faire has never been tried. The Great Depression resulted from government action overriding free enterprise, to include tariffs and ill-advised interference in economic activity. I grant however that Wall Street needed more policing than it had in 1929.

Steve Fraser
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 4:12 pm

The German’s have a saying.. Zu viel ist untgesunt… Too much is unhealthy.

commieBob
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 4:20 pm

Here in Washington State, Canadians arrive in droves to get needed medical procedures they can’t in Canada.

That’s absolutely true. If you have money, America has much better medical care.
For folks who aren’t rich, there is medical tourism. Droves of Americans and Canadians travel to places like India and Mexico to get treatment that they can’t afford to get at home. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 5:12 pm

laissez faire never tried?
maybe it has.
i think they call it the ‘black market’
it kept russia from total collapse
it keeps venezuelans from starving
god bless the smugglers – putting their lives on the line to feed a free market.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 5:16 pm

I meant that no large state has ever permitted laissez faire. At least none springs to mind.
Maybe Britain after the Corn Laws but before protectionism and trade unionism might have come close, and the US during its highest growth decades in the late 19th century, although tariffs were an issue throughout that century.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 5:21 pm

Commiebob,
Americans too go for medical tourism.
A young black friend of mine from Charlotte (!) got butchered in Bolivia, where she went for cheaper cosmetic surgery and liposuction than available in NC. And she was a medical student. She said that even their sterile procedure wasn’t up to snuff.

Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 5:37 pm

That’s absolutely true. If you have money, America has much better medical care.
Utter bullsh*t. What America has, if you have money, is timely healthcare. It isn’t materially different in quality.
If I need an MRI in Canada, it takes six months. Unless I’m an NHL hockey player in which case I can get one in between periods. Or if I am a worker injured on the job, and collecting payments from the government’s Workers Compensation, in which case I go to the front of the line, no waiting. Self employed white collar worker = screwed.
And, BTW, there is no need, if you have the money, to go the US. There are several private hospitals in Canada, same standards, equipment, and training as the public facilities. Battle royal about to unfold in the courts over them.

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 5:53 pm

mr hoffer- it’s not utter bullshit.
http://www.wecaremedicalmall.org/california_mri_-_ct.htm
the wealth of the nation makes it possible to have mri machines in the mall for profit –
those machines cost a lot of money.
care to guess how many of them exist in canada?
go ahead.
there are more of them in california medical malls.
wealth made that possible.
and so it is throughout the usa. the equipment is there cuz profit.
in canada, medicine is practiced by employees for a wage.
many of them have red dots in the center of their foreheads
if your wife need some treatment- you might better go with her to ensure she’s respected.
and for god’s sake-
150 ppl in ontario got prostate biopsies with the same dirty needle because the instructions for autoclaving it were in english.
they have to import doctors – do you have a clue why? it’s not cuz private practice is unprofitable, now, is it?

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 5:56 pm

“Best Value California Imaging Center Locations…
(Many other low cost California imaging center locations available)
Anaheim, Antioch, Arcadia, Bellflower, Beverly Hills, Brea, Buena Park, Carlsbad, Carmel, Chico, Clovis, Colton, Corona, Cypress, Downey, El Centro, Elk Grove, Encinitas, Encino, Fallbrook, Garden Grove, Gardena, Glendale, Harbor City, Hayward, Huntington Beach, Inglewood, Irvine, Laguna Niguel, Lake Elsinore, Lancaster, Lodi, Long Beach, Los Angeles, Los Gatos, Lynwood, Maywood, Marina Del Rey, Montclair, Monterey Park, North Hollywood, Ontario, Oxnard, Panorama City, Pasadena, Pinole, Pleasanton, Pomona, Redding, Salinas, San Bernardino, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose, Santa Barbara, Santa Clarita, Santa Maria, Stockton, Sylmar, Torrance, Tustin, Upland, Van Nuys, Visalia, Westlake Village and Woodland Hills”

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:04 pm

and who remembers SARS?
it found a natural home in canadian hosptials:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome
word for the day – NOSOCOMIAL

Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:27 pm

gnomish September 23, 2016 at 5:53 pm
mr hoffer- it’s not utter bullshit.
http://www.wecaremedicalmall.org/california_mri_-_ct.htm
the wealth of the nation makes it possible to have mri machines in the mall for profit –
those machines cost a lot of money.
care to guess how many of them exist in canada?

I’m sorry that you failed to understand the difference between TIMELY and QUALITY in my earlier comment. The exact same machines exist in Canada run by technicians with the exact same training. ACCESS to them is constrained by the government. ACCESS is a different issue than QUALITY. And for your information, there are enough privately owned MRI machines in Canada now that if I am willing to pay for it myself, I can get an MRI on a day’s notice. I can and I have.
in canada, medicine is practiced by employees for a wage.
WHAT? There are no employees in the American healthcare system? Who knew!
many of them have red dots in the center of their foreheads
I will not dignify that with a response.
they have to import doctors – do you have a clue why? it’s not cuz private practice is unprofitable, now, is it?
Doctors are VERY well paid in Canada, just as well as in America. The reason many of them leave is not for money, but because they become frustrated in their ability to provide TIMELY healthcare to their patients.

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:54 pm

i totally understand the difference between timely and quality.
do you understand that AVAILABILITY is a sine qua non for that quality- and if it’s not there then it’s idiotic to characterize it as ‘quality’
as for the rest- my stepson didn’t leave canada because he was frustrated with his ability to deliver timely.
he emigrated because he wanted to make money.
i am not guessing. i am reporting.
and up your strawmen – the discussion of canadian medicare does not entail discussion of any other country period end of sentence.
show some respect- nobody is dumb enuff to buy your weaselling.
do you imagine i won’t call it lying when it is?

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:55 pm

let me give you the news:
every year, ALL the graduates of mcmasters EMIGRATE TO THE USA
cuz timely? dude- ESAD.

Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:00 pm

show some respect- nobody is dumb enuff to buy your weaselling.
do you imagine i won’t call it lying when it is?

When you have the balls to put your actual name behind your racism and ill informed rants, please let me know.

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:03 pm

brain drain, refers to the emigration of highly skilled or well-educated individuals for better pay or conditions, causing their places of origin to lose those skills and expertise
the first time i heard the phrase was when england nationaized healthcare.
the doctors were fleeing to the usa then as they have been from canada.
timely care has fanny adams to do with that emigration from canada, from india to canada.
dignify these drupes

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:07 pm

call the wambulance hoffer
not gonna happen.
i’m right. you’re wrong. doesn’t require authority or personality. facts stand alone.
and when you present me with a wall of stupid that can’t be penetrated:
(Any sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice)
you are declaring that reason can not prevail and that is a declaration of war on the human mind.
you are openly declaring that the only alternative is force.
you are openly hostile and aggressive and maybe you imagine that’s intimidating?
but you are no threat to me.
i know your game, see.
you can’t win with an overload of stupid. you’ll have to eat it yourself alone.

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:19 pm
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 8:02 pm

yep, buddy. private for profit comes to the rescue.
Apparently you missed the part of the thread where I was intensely critical of the public healthcare system in Canada, and the part where I pointed out that private MRI’s were available on a day’s notice in Canada if you were willing to pay, AND the part where I said that I had used exactly those private healthcare services for the specific reason that the public healthcare system was incapable of providing same in a timely fashion. I waxed sarcastic about it.
So if you had been paying attention, you would have noticed how critical I am of the public system in Canada, AND that I am highly in favour of private healthcare in Canada as an alternative. But you weren’t paying attention, and you didn’t notice. Do you know why?
The reason is that you have formed some sort of personal dislike toward me from previous threads that guides your responses. You attack with insults, call me a liar, make some absurd claim about my position requiring force to be dealt with, and bang me over the head with the very point I had already made upthread. You even managed to characterize my challenge to you that you cease commenting anonymously as some sort of threat toward you.
Get a grip.

gnomish
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:06 pm

great galloping gishes!
somebody said:
“If you have money, America has much better medical care.”
and you joined in with:
“Utter bullsh*t. What America has, if you have money, is timely healthcare. It isn’t materially different in quality.”
and i argued that there is a material distinction between being able to get it and not. ubiquitous vs scarce is the quality that differs.
you went all over the map with irrelevant and even false assertions and pulled the ‘racist’ card. you initiated the cursing, the babbling and reference to my balls comes springing from your lips. i find it to be an affront and you know you were trying to provoke a response. my response was to name your game.
so are you backing off the claim of b.s. or not? because if all you are saying is that there are brand name mri machines in canada
you may know, as i do, that the canadian gov legislates to restrict private practice by various means, i.e. insurance, services, etc.. the quality that produces is the quality of making it less or even unavailable.
battle royalling over queue jumping… heh. tells a tale.
i played along this far but now break time is over
ciao for nao.
https://info.blockimaging.com/bid/92623/mri-machine-cost-and-price-guide
like the east german luxury sedans, the canadian mri machines have the quality of non-existence.

Harold
Reply to  commieBob
September 23, 2016 4:04 pm

The 1930’s depression is not a good example as the recession was made worse by govt, and especially the New Deal. Governments can only hinder business, taking from Peter to pay Paul, to no overall effect except huge loss of efficiency.

PiperPaul
Reply to  Harold
September 23, 2016 4:19 pm

Peter to pay Paul, and you have to pay the Piper. So where’s my money?!

Steve Fraser
Reply to  commieBob
September 23, 2016 4:08 pm

Bob… Let’s see how you do if you need a hip replacement after age 80.

commieBob
Reply to  Steve Fraser
September 23, 2016 4:24 pm

My lovely 95 year old mother has had two of those since she turned 80. She’s in Saskatchewan. I suspect there are differences between the provinces. ymmv

Reply to  Steve Fraser
September 23, 2016 5:23 pm

I’m from Sk and I can tell you that they are very good at hip replacements, and have been for decades. But one skill set does not a healthcare system make.

Gabro
Reply to  Steve Fraser
September 23, 2016 5:25 pm

Also, hip replacement is a surgery for which you usually can wait, as less urgent than the kinds of life-threatening ailments for which Canadians cross the Border to get relief.

richard verney
Reply to  commieBob
September 23, 2016 4:30 pm

Life expectancy is probably more to do with diet and having a healthy outdoor lifestyle than any other factor.
Sorry, but Americans over eat and fill up on junk food, and will even take the car when they need to travel only half a mile (or less). This is a drag on life expectancy. Possibly, the high murder rate and traffic accident statistics (particularly away from rural areas) are also a drag.
Some of the best life expectancy is in places such as rural Japan, rural villages in Italy and the south coast of Spain. These are not wealthy areas, but the people eat a healthy diet, and spend a lot of time in the great outdoors.. The murder rates and traffic casualties are also low in these areas.
One also has to bear in mind precisely what life expectancy is. If the average life expectancy for a man is say 78, if a man has lived to reach the age of 60, he stands very high chances of living well over 78.

commieBob
Reply to  richard verney
September 23, 2016 7:41 pm

Middle aged undereducated white folks in America are slow suiciding by drinking and smoking. They are almost the only group in the world whose health is getting worse. link
These folks were told that, if they worked hard, they would prosper. Then the Republicans and the Democrats made it easy to ship their jobs offshore. They have no hope. They are ticked off. They will vote, if they bother, for The Donald. They don’t particularly care if he brings the whole system crashing down around their ears.
These are the victims of neoliberalism. The elites have seen fit to consign these folks to the trash heap and, unsurprisingly, their health has suffered as a result. I would say that unrestrained capitalism is quite evil … unless you think these people are lazy, useless, and deserve their fate. Niiice, blame the victim, that always works. (smoke billows from my ears) [/rant]

Gabro
Reply to  richard verney
September 23, 2016 7:49 pm

Commiebob,
There are lots of groups in the world slowly suiciding by those means.
More in Europe and Russia than the US.

commieBob
Reply to  richard verney
September 24, 2016 3:52 am

Gabro says: September 23, 2016 at 7:49 pm
… More in Europe and Russia than the US.

The difference is the trend. A large chunk of the American population is headed for third world status. The Russians have been drinking themselves to death for years. As for Europe, it depends on which country. Some European countries have much better life expectancies than America and Canada.
Did you know that there is a steady flow of doctors from America to Canada? link
Canadians like their system and want to keep it. Snowbirds who winter in Florida and Arizona are very careful to spend enough time in Canada to keep their medicare in effect. If you’re not in the 1% you’re better off in Canada.

tim lutz
Reply to  richard verney
September 24, 2016 10:24 am

my neighbours drive 150 ft to the mailbox

Reply to  commieBob
September 23, 2016 5:05 pm

commieBob September 23, 2016 at 3:51 pm
The reason I call myself commieBob is that I like (and can take advantage of) Canadian medicare. The statistics say I will live three years longer north of the border as compared with south of the border.

I wasn’t going to comment on this thread, but lest anyone be misled, I have to weigh in.
Canada’s health system is very good at keeping you from dying. If fails completely in terms of keeping you healthy. Get hit by a truck, it will put you back together again and send you home. Develop a severe condition that won’t kill you, but threatens to put you in a wheel chair, you are screwed. Six months to a year to see a specialist. After that, 8 to 12 months to get surgery. God forbid you decide you need a second opinion, that will add another year or more to the process. Specialist can’t advise you until s/he sees and MRI? Good news, a highest possible priority MRI only takes three months. If your condition is debilitating pain, but your life actually isn’t in danger, six months. Now consider that the specialist suggests an MRI followed by a diagnostic procedure, followed by another MRI to see what he result is, followed by another diagnostic procedure and another MRI. You can be in the system for two to three years in debilitating pain JUST TO GET A DIAGNOSIS and then ANOTHER year awaiting surgery. . But hey, you didn’t die so they get to chalk you up as a win in the life expectancy column. Is my sarcasm evident?

Tom in Florida
Reply to  commieBob
September 24, 2016 5:50 am

re: commieBob September 23, 2016 at 3:51 pm
“The statistics say I will live three years longer north of the border as compared with south of the border.”
I wonder what the difference would be if you remove the average life span of an inner city black youth.

MarkW
Reply to  commieBob
September 24, 2016 8:47 pm

One constant with commies, is they never understand the statistics that they use.
The biggest single reason why Canada has a higher life expectancy than the US, has nothing to do with the different health care systems, but rather due to the simple fact that Canada is filled with Canadians, and the US is filled with Americans.
When you compare identical demographics between Canada and the US, the difference either disappears, or the US comes out ahead.
The Great Depression was caused by socialism. It was a run of the mill recession that was deepened and lengthened by FDR. It was the taxes and regulations pushed to allegedly solve the recession that created the Depression.
Fun fact, nobody is required to use a particular HMO. Under ObamaCare, that option is removed.

commieBob
Reply to  MarkW
September 25, 2016 9:34 am

When you compare identical demographics between Canada and the US, the difference either disappears, or the US comes out ahead.

Can you supply a link? A more likely explanation of what’s happening is that American lifespans are affected by rising inequality. link

The Great Depression was caused by socialism.

That sounds like a rather loose definition of socialism. What did happen was a kneejerk reaction by the population, business, and government all over the developed world. Everyone freaked out and quit spending and trading. By the time FDR became president in 1933 the Great Depression was firmly entrenched. The one country that did succeed in pulling itself into prosperity was Germany. German immigrants to America and Canada were even leaving and going back to Germany. We all know how that turned out.

Fun fact, nobody is required to use a particular HMO.

Most of my working life has been spent in Canada, so I could be wrong, but don’t you have to take the HMO offered by your employer?

Under ObamaCare, that option is removed.

As far as I can tell you have a variety of choices. link You do have to choose something though.
I think we can agree that Obamacare isn’t even close to being wonderful. 🙂

MarkW
Reply to  MarkW
September 26, 2016 6:27 am

As to the depression, while it started under Hoover, the country had almost completely recovered from it by the time FDR took office.
As to HMO’s pretty much every company offers you a range of plans, not just one.

commieBob
Reply to  MarkW
September 26, 2016 10:41 am

MarkW says: September 26, 2016 at 6:27 am
As to the depression, while it started under Hoover, the country had almost completely recovered from it by the time FDR took office.

By one definition of ‘depression’ you are correct. If you take depression to mean a prolonged recession, then the depression ends when the economy quits contracting. On the other hand, most people take the Great Depression as having lasted for the whole of the 1930s. wiki The Wikipedia article gives a pretty good summary of the various theories about the causes of the Great Depression. You will find support for your idea that FDR’s actions prolonged it. I still find it disturbing that the one country that overcame the depression in a timely manner was Germany under Hitler.

As to HMO’s pretty much every company offers you a range of plans, not just one.

I hear plenty of stories about HMOs and other insurance providers finding ways to weasel out when large amounts of money are involved. Their duty to provide a profit for their shareholders trumps their duty to keep you alive. (Under no circumstances does this say anything about Canadian medicare. It has its own problems. In any event, my own choice is to stay north of the border.)

September 23, 2016 3:54 pm

My brother did business in Russia, East Germany and other ex-bloc countries fairly soon after the Berlin Wall fell. He found that business people, even those high up, did not know how to make decisions. This is a deep failing of Socialism not mentioned here.
The theft of initiative deprives people from making any important decisions at all. In Socialism, all important decisions are made at the top and are sent down to be implemented without question.
As a consequence, in my brother’s direct experience, even when they were free factory managers and even bosses showed no understanding of how to make decisions, how to weigh cost-benefit, or even how to negotiate a working position.
This is part of what it means when it’s said that Socialism infantilizes a population. Adults habitually look to someone above them in authority to make decisions for them. Any adults who do take initiative are rapidly punished. They’re not following the “party line.” In the PRC, classically, such people were called “Capitalist roaders” and imprisoned or executed.

PiperPaul
Reply to  Pat Frank
September 23, 2016 4:21 pm

business people, even those high up, did not know how to make decisions
Might that be also happening in “the west” now, what with so much reliance on automation and software?

CD in Wisconsin
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 23, 2016 5:04 pm

@PiperPaul: As a retired computer programmer analyst, I will strongly suggest to you that the answer to your question is ‘no’. Computers and the software used to operate them are designed to improve productivity (quite dramatically I will suggest) and provide the information that management needs to make decisions that affect the company. During my working years, I wrote and implemented and maintained numerous report programs and automated online systems which did exactly that.
This not to say that computer programs and automated systems are not written and implemented to do any decision-making themselves. Yes they do. But those decisions which these systems make are at a relatively low level and are, as I said, intended to improve productivity. They do not replace the need for important decision-making at any management level.
And I am proud to say that computers, like most all technological advances, are a product of the free market system. What technological advances has socialism ever produced?

Gabro
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 23, 2016 5:31 pm

Well, electronic computers did get a boost from government research needs. They were developed to model thermonuclear reactions.
Hi-fi sound also derives from sonar. As I mentioned, government has a role to play, but these developments would have occurred eventually anyway. World War I hastened aviation development and World War II nuclear power. But free enterprise would have achieved these breakthroughs sooner or later anyway.
The spoked wheel was developed for chariots. The screwdriver was invented to put knights in armor (although more for jousting than war).

mellyrn
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 23, 2016 6:04 pm

Gabro, can you please tell me more about the screwdriver? One of my hobbies is old and/or ancient tech (e.g., a ~1CE wooden wheel with wooden bearings). I never thought to wonder about screwdrivers. If you write me at lostforth at gmail, this thread need not be bothered. Thank you kindly.

Gabro
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 23, 2016 6:18 pm

Mell,
Sent. Let me know if it doesn’t get through.

PiperPaul
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 23, 2016 6:31 pm

CD, don’t get me wrong; I love computers and software and what they can do. But “expert systems” take the expertise out of the people and put it into systems, making centralized control much easier to achieve and exploit. Computers are extremely flexible, yet enforce conformity. Brain work is much less valued and fewer people are required to do it. Fewer people know what’s actually going on behind the interface and icons, yet these button-pushers and screen-lickers consider themselves experts. It’s difficult to argue with the output of a machine and the SMEs and programmers who designed the system are usually long gone, or at least very reluctant to make any changes.
“If you put tomfoolery into a computer, nothing comes out of it but tomfoolery. But this tomfoolery, having passed through a very expensive machine, is somehow ennobled and no-one dares criticize it.”
– Pierre Gallois

CD in Wisconsin
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 23, 2016 7:22 pm

@PiperPaul: Paul, I think I understand your concern and what you are saying. If human society ever gets to the point where it becomes some kind of computerized automated dystopia where machines serve as a tool for central control of everybody and everything, I would probably be just as opposed to it as you appear to be (sounds like a good idea for a science fiction movie). Computers should never be allowed to totally replace brain power and our need to think, reason, and make decisions ourselves. I have always argued that computers should assist us humans in using our brains, and not replace it. I cannot say to what degree we are already achieving that dystopia, but the Internet is obviously already being used to brainwash people (a form of control) and make them believe in CAGW.
Never having designed or programmed “expert systems” myself, I would nevertheless agree with you that the utmost caution should be taken when deciding how and when they are used, if at all. In fact, that would apply to ALL advanced technology. The more power it has, the more cautious we should be.

commieBob
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 23, 2016 7:53 pm

PiperPaul says: September 23, 2016 at 6:31 pm
… these button-pushers and screen-lickers consider themselves experts.

Yep, put a data set into Matlab or R and invoke a bunch of routines and you get ‘results’. It doesn’t matter if you actually understand the underlying math. Papers get peer reviewed and published with garbage statistical analysis. It feels like that’s how 99% of climate scientists work.

MarkW
Reply to  PiperPaul
September 24, 2016 8:49 pm

Automation does not make decisions. Rather it implements decisions that were made in advance.
Computers do not make decisions, they gather information and help people to analyze that information.

sonofametman
September 23, 2016 3:57 pm

Let’s not forget the assistance to Western Europe provided by the Marshall Plan..not that i’m defending the DDR at all. It was a living nightmare.
When we lived in West Germany in the early 1960’s, our neighbours, who had relatives in the DDR, would visit them once a year. If they wanted to take them basic stuff like paint or nails, they’d load the car up with about three times as much stuff as they wanted their family to get. The excess had to be handed over as bribes to the legion of petty officials who got in their way.

Chris Hanley
September 23, 2016 4:11 pm

“Personal interaction was higher too, because telephones and other technologies were lacking …”.
========================
… and not trusted.
Telephones were routinely tapped by the Stasi: ‘… The Stasi sought to “know everything about everyone”. Its annual budget has been estimated at approximately $1 billion. Out of a population of 16 million, the agency kept files on nearly 6 million of its citizens … People in East Germany were subjected to a variety of techniques, including audio and video surveillance of their homes, reading mail, extortion, and bribery’ — (Wiki).

Science or Fiction
September 23, 2016 4:22 pm

“The largest threat to freedom, democracy, the market economy and prosperity, is no longer socialism. It is, instead, the ambitious, arrogant, unscrupulous ideology of environmentalism.”
Vaclav Klaus
“We have just gone through 70 years of communism, so why the hell would you want to go back to that?”
Vaclav Klaus
(Václav Klaus is a Czech economist and politician who served as the second President of the Czech Republic from 2003 to 2013. He also served as the second and last Prime Minister of the Czech Republic… , from July 1992 until the dissolution of Czechoslovakia in January 1993, and as the first Prime Minister of an independent Czech Republic from 1993 to 1998. – Wikipedia)

Science or Fiction
September 23, 2016 4:29 pm

“These days in the United States, however, forgetful, unobservant and ideological politicians are again touting the supposed benefits of socialism. Government-provided health and elder care, free tuition, paid day care and pre-school education”
I live in a country which provides that – it seems to work fine – for a while maybe – certainly as long as we got oil and gas.

LarryD
September 23, 2016 4:45 pm

Re: dp
Einstein was referring to science. Socialism is a religion. An “Intellectuals” religion. (see F. A. Hayek The Intellectuals and Socalism https://mises.org/system/tdf/Intellectuals%20and%20Socialism_4.pdf?file=1&type=document
As for trying to make it work economically, see von Mises Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis https://mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-analysis

NW sage
September 23, 2016 4:51 pm

Re: the paragraph on freedom – I suggest that the key economic part of freedom is the freedom to OWN a thing. Only through legally protected ownership are any of us ‘free’ to sell the produce of our labor. That freedom to chose who we sell to, and when we sell, is the most important ingredient of what is called the ‘free market economy’. It also includes freedom to buy stuff – where and when. The socialists have learned (and are learning) the hard way that without that particular element there is no incentive to do better or improve – in any way. No incentive – except the violence of the gun – means far less progress.

Gabro
Reply to  NW sage
September 23, 2016 4:55 pm

Private property is the greatest human invention. Except that it wasn’t really invented. It arises naturally when allowed to.
Even in a hunter-gatherer society, bands own territories and the most successful hunter gets first breeding rights.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 4:57 pm

Which, BTW, is how the shape of the human penis evolved, its pump like structure giving second and third, ahem, comers, a shot at reproducing.

cloa5132013
September 23, 2016 4:57 pm

West Germany was socialist capitalism so the point is what. Socialist capitalism is better than communist socialism. Nearly every single country has some socialism- it is the definition of government.

gnomish
Reply to  cloa5132013
September 23, 2016 5:06 pm

uh… do you have any idea why there is no such thing as reddish green?
too deep for you, huh?
there is no such thing as socialist capitalism, either.
oxy

Gabro
Reply to  gnomish
September 23, 2016 5:09 pm

There is however state capitalism, at least theoretically, in which, instead of taxes, the government owns profitable enterprises. Britain tried it after the war with nationalized industries and it sucked.

gnomish
Reply to  gnomish
September 23, 2016 5:32 pm

mixed up definitions – the distinguishing characteristic of capitalism is private ownership.
in fact, ownership is private.

Gabro
Reply to  gnomish
September 23, 2016 6:25 pm

Gnomish,
You’re right. There should be some other term for state capitalism. Maybe theft.
But if the owner is the state rather than private persons, but allows incentive-based management and labor relations, some of the benefits of true capitalism can be reaped by the government.
However politics always rears its ugly head to try to preserve uneconomic activities, a la the railroads’ being forced to maintain no longer need personnel, ie featherbedding. Common even in real capitalism under union rules. Just ask Boeing.
Or Moochelle Obama’s $350,000 no show job at a Chicago hospital and Chelsea Clinton’s $600,000 “job” at NBC.

Mark T
Reply to  gnomish
September 24, 2016 6:51 am

What Gabro defines is actually closer to socialism – direct government ownership of production. Fascism would be private ownership under heavy government direction, which is what the US really has now. I laugh every time someone calls Trump a fascist, as if Hillary isn’t.

MarkW
Reply to  gnomish
September 24, 2016 8:51 pm

gnomish, ownership without control, is not ownership.

gnomish
Reply to  gnomish
September 25, 2016 9:38 pm

” ownership without control, is not ownership.”
more than that – ownership means exclusive control
i did use the word correctly and i said what i meant

CWinNY
September 23, 2016 5:08 pm

White run, capitalist, Rhodesia was known as the bread basket of Africa; a net exporter of food. Its population enjoyed the 2nd highest per capita GDP on that continent. Infant mortality was among the continent’s lowest and life expectancy among the highest of all Africa. Black run, socialist, Zimbabwe has people near starvation diets, their currency is nearly worthless, and infant mortality is high with low life expectancy. What is the cause of this decline in living standard? Is it the name change from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe, the change from white rule to black, or the change from capitalism to socialism?
My money is on the change in economic system.

September 23, 2016 5:17 pm

Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it. Isn’t that the whole reason we are taught ( and hopefully learn) history? So very applicable on this example.

Steamboat McGoo
Reply to  Jeff L
September 24, 2016 12:02 am

Which version of history? The original – factual – one, or the “revised” PC version? Or should I simply wait for the screenplay?

Bartemis
September 23, 2016 5:21 pm
Gabro
Reply to  Bartemis
September 23, 2016 5:25 pm

Graphic!

K. Kilty
Reply to  Bartemis
September 23, 2016 5:32 pm

What looks like empty ocean between the Koreas–the Straight of Socialism.

K. Kilty
Reply to  K. Kilty
September 23, 2016 5:33 pm

Oh, cripes. The Strait of Socialism.

Gabro
Reply to  K. Kilty
September 23, 2016 6:50 pm

Dire economic straits.
As in starvation for all but the nomenklatura.

gnomish
Reply to  Bartemis
September 23, 2016 5:33 pm

beyond persuasive.

gnomish
Reply to  Bartemis
September 23, 2016 5:35 pm

ha- it’s Earth Day every day there!

Analitik
September 23, 2016 6:17 pm

Hong Kong & Taiwan vs mainland China was another case highlighting the ineffectiveness of socialism up until the mainlanders admitted defeat and allowed state supervised capitalism to filter in to the economy in the 1980’s. The state interventionist model still has flaws as the upcoming phase 2 of the GFC will show.

gnomish
September 23, 2016 6:18 pm

if you want science and no politics- maybe don’t come to a site that deals with global warming.

Gabro
Reply to  gnomish
September 23, 2016 6:39 pm

Chris,
Post after post here is nothing but science. The fact that there is no science behind Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change Alarmism shows that it is purely political.
That four (as now), five or six molecules of CO2 per 10,000 dry air molecules, instead of just three, will have a negligible effect on earth’s climate is a scientific fact. The hype that the effects of going to six will be disastrous is a Big Lie, akin to H!tler’s against the Jews. Politics all the way down.

Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:32 pm

Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change Alarmism is all politics and no science.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:41 pm

The fact that there is no C shows that the whole of Climate Change Alarmism is political.
If not ill effects loom from the beneficial increase in plant food in our air, then why squander trillions of dollars to alleviate those imaginary ills?

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:42 pm

No for not.
So far more CO2 has been a good thing. Even more will be even better. So all the government action has been purely politically motivated.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:46 pm

If there be AGW, it’s in the range of 0.7 to 1.7 degrees C per doubling of CO2, not the IPCC’s anti-scientific, unphysical 1.5 to 4.5. That is, about half a degree either side of the 1.2 degrees C based upon lab experiments.
So what’s the problem?

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 6:53 pm

Chris,
By good I mean the fact that earth has greened thanks to CO2, which has helped to feed a growing population.
Do you think that is bad?

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:08 pm

Not a straw man at all.
If there are no ill effects from more plant food in the air, then the entire government-academic-green industrial complex is deflated.
In fact, far from catastrophic, more plant food is beneficial. Do you suppose that Arrhenius, father of the GHG hypothesis, was unscientific, when he wrote:
“By the influence of the increasing percentage of carbonic acid (CO2) in the atmosphere, we may hope to enjoy ages with more equable and better climates, especially as regards the colder regions of the earth, ages when the earth will bring forth much more abundant crops than at present, for the benefit of rapidly propagating mankind.”?
Callendar, too, when reviving the GHG hypothesis in the 1930s, also regarded more plant food in the air as a good thing.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:24 pm

Chris,
You could not possibly be more wrong. Clearly you have never taken even a high school biology class or ever studied the philosophy of science.
CO2 is without a doubt plant food. The carbon is used to make sugar and grow the plant. Where did you ever get the idea that food provides only energy and not essential nutrients?
Beneficial means that plants and hence the animals which rely upon them need the products produced by the increased CO2, to include we humans. I’m a scientist and am motivated to improve life for humans and other living things.
Apparently you’re not a scientist and have no clue as to scientific reality.
Are you from this planet?

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:28 pm

Besides which, the chemical reactions of photosynthesis using CO2 lead to storing energy in the sugar produced by them.
You are so far out in Left field that from here on, no one should pay you the least attention, as a scientific ignoramus of the lowest order.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Chris,
You have shown over and over again the depths of your total ignorance.
I’m merely stating an obvious fact. It’s not an ad hominem if true.
You truly know less than nothing. Less because you presume to state as facts hilarious lies.
You are worse than an ignoramus.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:46 pm

Chris,
CO2 most certainly does supply energy to a plant. Plants make sugar with CO2, which is their energy source. It’s no use trying to educate an ignoramus intent on continuing to be ignorant.
A fool who imagines that because he read laughable garbage on SkS, he understands biology. Or do you seriously imagine that you know more about CO2 and planetary ecology than the AGU?
Impact of CO2 fertilization on maximum foliage cover across the globe’s warm, arid environments, 2013
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/grl.50563/abstract
I guess so. Pathetic. Don’t even have a clue what food is.
You are a laughable ignoramus loon. If you had a shred of shame, you’d have slunk away by now.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:47 pm

There can be no debate with a willful ignoramus who shamelessly keeps repeating lies learned from cartoonist clowns.

Gabro
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 7:55 pm

Chris,
You are so ignorant that, even after I repeatedly try to educate you, you keep repeating the same ignorant lies.
Photons energize one step in the photosynthetic process. As I’ve tried to educate you over and over again, CO2 provides the carbon that goes into sugars which then energize a plant’s reactions.
Are you really this intensely stupid, or simply blinded by your adherence to the AGW religion?

Chimp
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 8:01 pm

Christopher,
Not taking sides between intense stupidity and adherence to CAGW faith, but let me ask you one question.
In your own body, do you derive energy from the sugars you have ingested? Being an animal, you’re reliant on the sugars made by plants from CO2, ie plant food, in the air. Why is it different for the plants which rely on the sugars they’ve made from plant food in the air?

Chimp
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 8:11 pm

Christopher,
Let me see if I understand your lunatic ravings correctly.
According to you, sources of protein, vitamins, calcium and other minerals in my diet aren’t food, because they are sources of structural features or enzymes but not of energy. Is that right?
So only sugars count as food in my diet. But they don’t count in the plants that made them? Right?
Do you have any idea how crazy you sound? What is the color of the sky on your home world?

Tom Halla
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 8:20 pm

CC, so what an organism uses for growth of itself is not “food” by your definition? CO2 is required in photosynthesis, as well as forming much of the structure of the autotroph.

Chimp
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 8:26 pm

Bizzaroworld according to Christopher:
1) Carbon dioxide is not plant food because it is not a source of energy for plants.
2) Plants use sugar, made from CO2, as their source of energy.
3) Animals use sugar from plants, made from CO2, as their source of energy.
4) Therefore, animals have no source of food.
And all the other sources of food, ie proteins, vitamins, minerals and other essential nutrients aren’t “food” but “nutrients”.
Dictionary definition of “food”: “any nutritious substance that people or animals eat or drink, or that plants absorb, in order to maintain life and growth”. Try living and growing as a plant without CO2, numbnuts.
To which could be added the need of fungi and microbes for substances other than those providing only energy. According to you, electrical gradients or lightning are “food”, since they’re sources of energy.
Do you have the least sense of how hilarious you are?

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 8:53 pm

CC,
As you must be aware, the US government disagrees with your loony tunes definition of “food”:
https://www.nutrition.gov/whats-food
“Look up the amount of calories, fat, protein, vitamins, minerals and more contained in foods using the USDA’s on-line searchable database. This is an up-to-date and comprehensive source for nutrients amounts in food.”
So energy, ie calories, are nutrients, too, along with other nutrients.
You are such a goon, and so busted.
For US nutritionists, nutrients count as food. As anybody on earth except your raving loon goon gurus at SkS would tell you is the case.

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 8:55 pm

CC,
OK, I left out metabolically.
Plus, obviously plants, fungi and microbes don’t need sleep.
But please, keep digging and we’ll keep laughing at you.
Would be sad if not so funny.
You’re an endless source of mirth.

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:00 pm

Seriously, dude, why do you think that greenhouses keep their air at 1300 ppm of CO2?

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:05 pm

Can you really possibly be this idiotic?
Food is ingested substances.
You are such a goon.

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:10 pm

CC,
You pathetic goon!
The US NIH urges nutrient-dense FOODS for older people, ie high in nutrients and low in ENERGY.
https://nihseniorhealth.gov/eatingwellasyougetolder/choosenutrientdensefoods/01.html
Now kindly STFU, pathetic loser loon!

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:15 pm

CC,
You blithering simpleton. Why do you keep digging your hole deeper?
Lots of crops are grown in greenhouses. Here in Florida, the crops grown in greenhouses include pepper, tomato, cucumber, lettuce, herbs and strawberry.
http://smallfarms.ifas.ufl.edu/crops/hydroponics/
Why do you insist on making such a fool of yourself? Are you getting paid?

Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:15 pm

Christopher,
You’re splitting hairs on whether CO2 can be considered plant food on the grounds that biology is complex and more than CO2 is involved, yet we know far more about CO2’s role in biology than we know about its roll in the climate, meanwhile; you’re perfectly willing to accept a climate effect from incremental CO2 that’s far beyond what first principles physics can explain. Seems a little hypocritical to me, care to explain?
You claim that photons are the only source of energy for plants, yet climate science requires creating energy out of thin air to support their broken feedback model and ignores the primary role of photons vis a vie the GHG effect.
OK. Let’s say CO2 is not food, but is more like O2 is to mammals who can live al lot longer without food or water than they can without O2.

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:17 pm

CC:
[pruned. .mod].
[Please continue contribute to the (Admittedly tedious) conversation, but not with just an insult. To children. .mod]

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:22 pm

co2isnotevil
September 23, 2016 at 9:15 pm
Christopher is not just splitting hairs but is stupendously wrong.
CO2 is plant food. More of it in the air has led to greening of the earth, with vegetation moving into former desert areas and increased yields of crop plants.
The goon’s definition of “food” is not shared by any relevant authority. All the whining sicko can do is try to divert attention from the scientific facts by idiotic word games, none of which is supported by science.
Everyone on this site recognizes the loon for the tool he is of the Warmunista liars. Even the pro-CAGW US government says the fool is a tool.

Reply to  Bye Doom
September 23, 2016 10:36 pm

“CO2 is plant food. More of it in the air has led to greening of the earth, with vegetation moving into former desert areas and increased yields of crop plants.”
No doubt and the best way to interpret pre anthropogenic CO2 levels in the ice cores is as a signal of biological success, and even the current elevated level signals the success of man as part of that biological system.
Warmer temperature means faster metabolism/growth and more rain (the third component of the photon-CO2-H2O triad at the base of the planets biomass). A more robust biomass requires higher ambient CO2 levels to sustain it and it takes some time for biomass to sequester enough natural sources of CO2 in order to sustain a more robust biomass, hence the lag observed between temperature and CO2 levels.

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:27 pm

Hey, Goon!
Optimum for winter wheat growth close to 1000 ppm CO2:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26253981
Probably the world’s number one food crop, except maybe for corn (maize) or rice.
You are such a blithering idiotic loon-goon.

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:34 pm

Hey, Goon!
It’s not just correlation. It’s causation, as shown in controlled experiments.
With more plant food in the air, plants need to open their stomata for less time, meaning less water loss. Thus, they can spread into drier regions.
You are such a lying loser loon.

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:37 pm

Hey Goon,
Or do you think you know more than NASA’s scientists, who concluded that more plant food in the air has greened the earth?
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth

Bye Doom
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:41 pm

Goon,
Wheat yield has been greatly boosted by more CO2 in the air.
Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Chimp
Reply to  Gabro
September 23, 2016 9:47 pm

Doom,
Fuggedaboudit.
The troll is obviously impervious to all evidence and science.
Even politically correct and suborned NASA has to admit to greening thanks to CO2.
It’s not just correlation. It’s causation and a fact.
More plant food in the air means more vegetation. Who’d a thunk it?
Duh!

Latitude
Reply to  Gabro
September 24, 2016 1:19 pm

high CO2 concentration also decreased the maximum carboxylation rate (Vc(max)) and the maximum electron transport rate (J(max)) of leaf photosynthesis.”

In other words, there is a trade off you have not considered.
…this is a good thing

staspeterson BSME, MSMa, MBA
September 23, 2016 6:45 pm

I beleive the experimental evidence is socialism in various forms has been tried in countries some 95 odd times in the past160 years; and has succeeded nowhere, but it exists and is functioning but is slowly collapsing in the homogeneous welfare states of Scandinavia.

Brian Bach
September 23, 2016 7:06 pm

I would have expected a little less dogma on this forum. Attributing the degree of success or failure to one parameter (Goverment involvement) is very much like attributing climate to only atmospheric CO2.

Gabro
Reply to  Brian Bach
September 23, 2016 7:19 pm

Well, the economic success of USA v. USSR is at least as strong a case for capitalism as the failure of IPCC models v. reality is a case for climate skepticism.
IMHO.

SMC
Reply to  Brian Bach
September 23, 2016 7:37 pm

That’s nice. What do you believe the alternatives are?

MarkW
Reply to  Brian Bach
September 24, 2016 8:57 pm

Since you are such an expert, show us where we are wrong.

September 23, 2016 7:09 pm

Not trying to defend socialism – its modern manifestations in the US are truly disgusting.
However the post is extremely simplistic if not primitive. “The Experiment” was not a comparison of the two systems – the divided Germany was the primary battleground of the Cold War and it determined the reality on both sides of the internal border much more than Capitalism/Socialism differences.
Also the actual systems were much less different that the author may lead you to believe: West Germany was (and still is) a real socialist state by US standards; and East Germany allowed quite a bit of private small businesses. DDR was politically repressive – it just had to be given the geography and Cold War politics; but culturally it was very free torlerant and rather advanced – definitely more so than the majority of the US at the time.
The world is simply not back and white..
Disclamer: I grew up in USSR and lived in first East and than in unified Germany; moved to California a quarter century ago.

markl
September 23, 2016 7:40 pm

AGW and Agenda 21 are constructs to install a Socialist agenda on the world and you don’t need to be a conspiracy theorist to understand. This is a well written piece that deserves more audience but you won’t see it because the majority of MSM is owned by the Socialist ideology pushers. It is all part of their plan and they are executing it well. The reason Socialism fails is people eventually separate the promises from the facts and want a better life. You can’t hide the advantages of Capitalism.

Ipso Phakto
September 23, 2016 8:17 pm

Politics infected and corrupted science, so the dissection of both is necessary.

September 23, 2016 9:00 pm

benefits of socialism. Government-provided health and elder care, free tuition, paid day care and pre-school education
Denmark has those. Does not seem to me as a brake on inventiveness and living standard…

Bye Doom
Reply to  lsvalgaard
September 23, 2016 9:03 pm

When Bernie Sanders tried to cite Denmark as an example of the wonders of socialism, the Danish government politely objected, stating that they considered themselves capitalist, with high taxation on those wonderfully productive capitalists in order to fund social welfare programs. They considered Bernie’s use of the term “socialism” as hopelessly old-fashioned.

Mark T
Reply to  Bye Doom
September 24, 2016 7:01 am

They also have a sytem that is slowly failing, and they know it, but cognitive dissonance prevents them from admitting why.

Mark T
Reply to  lsvalgaard
September 24, 2016 6:59 am

Indeed, and one person’s experience clearly defines the whole of the nation’s.

MarkW
Reply to  Mark T
September 24, 2016 9:00 pm

When a socialist agrees with it, one opinion is always sufficient to prove a case.

MarkW
Reply to  lsvalgaard
September 24, 2016 8:59 pm

It never ceases to amaze me how people, because they are respected in one field, actually come to believe that they are experts in all fields.

willhaas
September 23, 2016 9:39 pm

And what about Korea? Is the North’s communist economy better than the South’s capitalist economy? China gave up their communists economy for a market economy years ago all to the Chinese people’s benefit. What about Russia? What about eastern Europe? How many times must this same experiment be performed?