
Guest essay by Eric Worrall
University of Sussex and Vienna School of International Studies are concerned that countries with policies which favour nuclear power aren’t making enough effort to reduce CO2 emissions by installing solar power and wind turbines.
University of Sussex Press Release;
Pro-nuclear countries making slower progress on climate targets
With Hinkley Point deal hanging in the balance, study casts fresh doubts over future of nuclear energy in Europe
A strong national commitment to nuclear energy goes hand in hand with weak performance on climate change targets, researchers at the University of Sussex and the Vienna School of International Studies have found.
A new study of European countries, published in the journal Climate Policy, shows that the most progress towards reducing carbon emissions and increasing renewable energy sources – as set out in the EU’s 2020 Strategy – has been made by nations without nuclear energy or with plans to reduce it.
Conversely, pro-nuclear countries have been slower to implement wind, solar and hydropower technologies and to tackle emissions.
While it’s difficult to show a causal link, the researchers say the study casts significant doubts on nuclear energy as the answer to combating climate change.
“By suppressing better ways to meet climate goals, evidence suggests entrenched commitments to nuclear power may actually be counterproductive.”
Professor Andy Stirling, Professor of Science and Technology Policy at the University of Sussex, said: “Looked at on its own, nuclear power is sometimes noisily propounded as an attractive response to climate change. Yet if alternative options are rigorously compared, questions are raised about cost-effectiveness, timeliness, safety and security.
“Looking in detail at historic trends and current patterns in Europe, this paper substantiates further doubts.
“By suppressing better ways to meet climate goals, evidence suggests entrenched commitments to nuclear power may actually be counterproductive.”
The study divides European countries into three, roughly equal in size, distinct groups:
Group 1: no nuclear energy (such as Denmark, Ireland and Norway)
Group 2: existing nuclear commitments but with plans to decommission (eg Germany, Netherlands and Sweden)
Group 3: plans to maintain or expand nuclear capacity (eg Bulgaria, Hungary and the UK)
They found that Group 1 countries had reduced their emissions by an average of six per cent since 2005 and had increased renewable energy sources to 26 per cent.
Group 2 countries, meanwhile, fared even better on emissions reductions, which were down 11 per cent. They grew renewable energy to 19 per cent.
However, Group 3 countries only managed a modest 16 per cent renewables share and emissions on average actually went up (by three per cent).
The UK is a mixed picture. Emissions have been reduced by 16 per cent, bucking the trend of other pro-nuclear countries. However, only five per cent of its energy comes from renewables, which is among the lowest in Europe, pipped only by Luxembourg, Malta and the Netherlands.
The team say that the gigantic investments of time, money and expertise in nuclear power plants, such as the proposed Hinckley Point C in the UK, can create dependency and ‘lock-in’ – a sense of ‘no turning back’ in the nation’s psyche.
Technological innovation then becomes about seeking ‘conservative’ inventions – that is new technologies that preserve the existing system. This is, inevitably, at the expense of more radical technologies, such as wind or solar.
Professor Benjamin Sovacool, Professor of Energy Policy and Director of the Sussex Energy Group at the University of Sussex, said: “The analysis shows that nuclear power is not like other energy systems. It has a unique set of risks, political, technical and otherwise, that must be perpetually managed.
“If nothing else, our paper casts doubt on the likelihood of a nuclear renaissance in the near-term, at least in Europe.”
Lead author Andrew Lawrence of the Vienna School of International Relations said: “As the viability of the proposed Hinkley plant is once again cast into doubt by the May government, we should recall that — as is true of nuclear fallout — nuclear power’s inordinate expense and risks extend across national borders and current generations.
“Conversely, cheaper, safer, and more adaptable alternative energy sources are available for all countries.”
Read more: http://www.sussex.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressrelease/id/36547
The abstract of the study;
Nuclear energy and path dependence in Europe’s ‘Energy union’: coherence or continued divergence?
Since its initial adoption, the EU’s 2020 Strategy – to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by 20%, increase the share of renewable energy to at least 20% of consumption, and achieve energy savings of 20% or more by 2020 – has witnessed substantial albeit uneven progress. This article addresses the question of what role nuclear power generation has played, and can or should play in future, towards attaining the EU 2020 Strategy, particularly with reference to decreasing emissions and increasing renewables. It also explores the persistent diversity in energy strategies among member states. To do so, it first surveys the current landscape of nuclear energy use and then presents the interrelated concepts of path dependency, momentum, and lock-in. The article proceeds to examine five factors that help explain national nuclear divergence: technological capacity and consumption; economic cost; security and materiality; national perceptions; and political, ideological and institutional factors. This divergence reveals a more general weakness in the 2020 Strategy’s underlying assumptions. Although energy security – defined as energy availability, reliability, affordability, and sustainability – remains a vital concern for all member states, the 2020 Strategy does not explicitly address questions of political participation, control, and power. The inverse relationship identified here – between intensity of nuclear commitments, and emissions mitigation and uptake of renewable sources – underscores the importance of increasing citizens’ levels of energy policy awareness and participation in policy design.
Read more: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14693062.2016.1179616
Even James Hansen, former NASA GISS director and arguably the originator of the global climate movement, believes nuclear power is an essential component of the path to a low carbon future.
Unless you are lucky enough to have the right geography for large scale hydro, nuclear is the only proven low carbon means of producing reliable biddable baseload power.
To argue that countries which have a strong commitment to nuclear power are not “doing their bit” to reduce CO2 emissions in my opinion is total lunacy.
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I am one of those all of the above people. It takes brains and effort to make electricity. You start by playing the cards you have. We have hydro and fossil fuels. Nuclear came along and filled a gap with those. Japan, France, and South Korea are examples.
Wind and solar can fill some of the gap. A very small part of the gap.
About 32% of the electricity gap in Germany and 42% in Spain…
Griff,
As long as there is wind and/or sun. A few high pressure days mid-winter in Germany means zero gap filling by wind and 10% of nameplate power by sun the moment you desparately need all power. So what to do? Build 100% backup with (fast gas) fossil power plants. As Germany (with browncoal) is doing now…
Favoring renewables and killing off conventional energy forms of energy for ideological reasons is not “filling a gap”. It’s stupidity.
Ferd
Germany has completed its coal plant building programme, begun in 2008, planned to replace its nuclear plant, not anything to do with renewables. One of the plants built may never switch on…
It is now even going to shut down a tiny part of its brown coal plants (by end 2019).
It continues to build wind and solar (especially offshore wind).
It has started building prototype grid storage (power to gas, battery, etc).
It has an excess of conventional/nuclear plant to cover in winter (needs to shut down more) and of course it is plugged into an Europe wide network, with Denmark (wind) Norway (hydro) and France (nuclear) all happy to sell it power. Germany currently though exports more than it imports.
Griif–you are ignoring the imports of nuclear-generated power from France, coal from Poland, or hydro from Norway.
Griff,
The problem with wind and sun is that you need 100% backup for in case there is no (or too much) wind and no sun, which is most of the time. For “conventional” plants, some 10% reserve above the maximum use is sufficient to prevent a blackout in case of sudden failure of one plant, together with the infrastructure for 10% import/export in case. Until now, Germany could profit from the existing reserve, but once they increase their wind and sun power, they need as much backup as they have installed. That means 22% (32% – 10% already installed) more backup, besides what was already foreseen for the replacement of nuclear.
Counting on the European grid mid winter may help for sudden shutdowns of one or two “conventional” plants, but that doesn’t help if most of N.W. Europe is under a high pressure calm weather mid winter, when every country needs its own maximum power. Opposite, Germany has already 100% nameplate capacity in wind and sun, but can’t store it (neither can Denmark). They dump it in Austria, partly via Czechia, which has already complained that Germany overloads their grid. They must dump it at zero ct/MWh and must import it at high momentary market prices when there is no wind and sun. The users pay the difference…
Moreover, windfall can be extremely fast: within 15 minutes for a whole country. Most conventional plants can cope with maximum 1-2% change in capacity per minute. That is too slow for wind: one need low-yield gasturbines – or hydro if available. The former uses more natural gas for the same amount of power, thus more CO2 emissions… Their export is largely CO2-free, but their import is not – except for hydro and nuclear.
Storage in Europe is limited to pumping water uphill and/or not using hydro by overcapacity of wind and sun. To cover one day of 100% power use by renewables, you need 600 times the current available pump capacity in Europe if there is no sun and wind. Or 800 Tesla wall batteries per household… You see, you underestimate what is needed for one day storage, let it be a week in mid-winter…
The extra costs for local (solar) and national/international (wind) grid extensions are gigantic. Add to that the double investments in wind and sun plus the necessary backup and Europe looses every competitivity with countries which don’t are that stupid…
Tom – no I’m not!
http://energytransition.de/2015/06/is-germany-reliant-on-foreign-nuclear-power/
https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/news/news-2016/germanys-electricity-exports-surplus-brings-record-revenue-of-over-two-billion-euros
http://energytransition.de/2015/11/german-power-exports-more-valuable-than-imports/
Ferdi – Germany and the UK have no problem at all in forecasting and coping with rapid ramp down – or up – of wind power. Grid storage makes that even easier and reduces the need for spinning reserve
Griff,
As long as wind (and solar) is less than 20% of total power supply, one can cope with a fast fall of windpower with the existing equipment. With increasing wind power, you have to install increasing amounts of fast backup, or if you are lucky, you can use hydro as backup, as Denmark does via Sweden and Norway. If more and more countries install wind (and solar) the international grid will encounter the same problems as now Germany and Denmark…
I have questions about the price of what is exported and imported: while Germany was a net exporter, even earned a lot of money mainly in winter, there is no overview of what the origin was of what was exported. If they added a lot of browncoal the moment of European shortages, then the prices were of course high. If they dumped wind when there was no demand, the price should have been low…
The website https://www.energy-charts.de/power_de.htm shows very interesting interactive charts of current sources and import/export of power in Germany over a few days: that indeed show drops of 2-3 GW of wind within 15 minutes (= one line in the graph), which simply is exported to other countries by reducing the exports… Nice that Germany can have the benefits of wind, while exporting the grid control problems to others…
Renewables. You can fuel some of the people some of the time, but, you can’t fuel all of the people all of the time.
….Nice…+ 399 gold stars…
ROFL 🙂 – new new favourite saying!
Outstanding!
michael of Oz — I am not quite sure how to praise such humor. Maybe just laugh. — Eugene WR Gallun
We have just had Nicola Shaw, head of the National Grid, telling us that technogical advances will help avoid the need to build new power stations by using domestic appliances to smooth the demand for electricity at peak times. IE. you will reduce demand at peak times through smart management, or else pay though the nose for your electricity.
For full details see Roger Harrabin on the BBC News website.
A refrigerator only needs to run for part of the time to keep its contents cold…
Smart appliances on a smart grid can work things so minimum necessary refrigerators are working at any one time, so reducing demand.
Nobody loses out.
similar commercial schemes using e.g aircon already operate in the UK. Owners get paid to participate -they don’t lose any benefit of the systems involved.
DOH? So what do you think the thermostat in the ‘fridge does? The ‘fridge is one of the first ‘smart’ pieces of kit, it doesn’t need to be controlled from a ‘smart’ grid as well. Seems you really lost out on education, Griff.
+1 – a fridge only powers up when the food is getting too warm…
Not with a smart grid fridge, Eric
http://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00021630/
http://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00042502/
The logic of your reply, Griff, about a smart-grid fridge, is that you would be perfectly happy for the state to control the central heating thermostat in your home. Would you like that, Griff?
If you delay the fridge turning on when the food gets warm, the food spoils faster. I had a dodgy thermostat on a fridge once, took me ages to figure out why the milk was spoiling overnight – it was giving me a taste of the “smart grid” experience.
It doesn’t work that way Eric:
“Smart appliances will also be able to respond to signals from your energy provider to avoid using energy during times of peak demand. This is more complicated than a simple on and off switch. For instance, a smart air conditioner might extend its cycle time slightly to reduce its load on the grid; while not noticeable to you, millions of air conditioners acting the same way could significantly reduce the load on the power grid. Likewise, a smart refrigerator could defer its defrost cycle until off-peak hours, or a smart dishwasher might defer running until off-peak hours.”
https://www.smartgrid.gov/the_smart_grid/smart_home.html
Seriously Griff you are so uninformed!
Griff —
The more complicated a system gets the more likely it is to fail. The simple solution is to just build more coal fired, gas fired, oil fired or nuke plants. Increase supply instead of trying to stifle demand.
Under capitalism demand is to be fulfilled profitably. Under socialism demand is to be stifled expensively. Your solution is in realty just a big government solution and such “solutions” never work.
Your solution is socialist thinking. Big government will reach into our houses and lives and solve all our problems for us — even going so far as to regulate when our refrigerators turn on.
You want to build a vast techno system that is in realty nothing but a house of cards. And house of cards is certainly the definition of a socialist economy.
Eugene WR Gallun
From Griff’s link:
So Griff, you’re going to turn over control of all your electrical appliances to people who can’t (or can’t be bothered to) use proper grammar?
Griff,
That may sound good for what is called “peak shaving”. That is reducing the peak in demand, no matter if the delivery is by conventional power plants or renewables.
I have been working in a chlorine plant which was part of such peak shaving: if there is a probable peak demand coming, the electrolyses was reduced from 132 MW to 42 MW to avoid a peak on the network. 42 MW was the minimum the electrolyses could have without shutting down. The 42 MW was guaranteed at full (industrial) price, the rest was much cheaper, but with huge fines (extra price/MWh) if there was a peak and we weren’t down at 42 MW…
Sounds good, except that because there was less production mainly in winter, we had to build extra electrolysers to fulfill chlorine demand. So all what happened is that the investments of the power companies were diverted to their clients.
Something similar is the case for your fridge and deep-freezer: it is possible to delay its power use, if the fridge has more cooling capacity and better insulation, thus more expensive for you, less for them. Other equipment like washing machines and dryers can be delayed in general without problems, electrical car battery loading: depends of its (urgent) use…
That is in no way a solution for renewables: it may help reduce peaks and divert part of the surplus of wind and sun, but it hardly helps to give power to the grid when there is no wind and no sun. Even if you use car batteries as “backup” that is far from sufficient and I don’t think that many people would agree that if you like to drive home from your work, the car battery was just near emptied to deliver power to the grid…
@Griff;
You really don’t understand how refrigeration work, do you? No matter how “smart” your refrigerator is Eric is absolutely correct: when the refrigerator needs cooling, it needs it NOW. And you don’t need “smart” refrigerators anyway. Over a grid area, the compressor on time is going to be distributed randomly so the load is going to be as level as it ever will. The only time this won’t be true is after one of those rolling blackouts you seem to be hankering for.
The same applies to the compressor for your air conditioning. All home A/C is “bang/bang” controlled (as is heating, for that matter). It’s either on, full on, or off, dead off. There is no “extending” the cooling cycle because there’s no way to meter the flow of refrigerant through the evaporator coils or vary the compressor speed or regulate the fan speed. Only commercial installations can justify the cost of multi-stage compressors.
D. J. Hawkins,
Sometimes technical progress is faster than thought: a few months ago bought a new freezer for at home which when reading the manual is equipped with a variable speed compressor (Liebherr)… Thus regulating its cooling capacity on demand. Indeed if you insert some food to get frozen, the compressor increases its speed and consumes more electricity (have inserted a power meter with memory and Bluetooth between mains and freezer) and has its highest peak after automatic defrosting…
Which doesn’t imply that I would like that the power vendor controls my home equipment, or the price must be extremely attractive, which it currently isn’t anymore with all these “green” taxes…
Harry
The electricity company could, with my agreement, manage my fridge or aircon or heating to reduce demand, while still supplying at the level I set it to.
The state has nothing to do with it.
I imagine you don’t avoid off peak electricity deals your power company offers because that’s the state dictating when you use your washer/dryer?
Tarriff mugging at its finest. Inverse demand side management for profit. There’s one born every minute.
A totally illogical outcome. If your aircon/heating is capable of delivering the comfort levels you set at a reduced power supply then you are being conned – by yourself.
Griff —
What you want to do is not cost free. People who don’t want such a system would find their rates going up to subsidize people like you who want it.
Now if the cost of the system could be placed entirely on the backs of the people who opt to use the system? Whoops, your personal bill would shoot through the roof! You’d be paying your own way! And dropping the system like a hot potato!.
All green ideas are premised on subsidies from the general public. Without those subsidies the Green Industry would collapse overnight.
Eugene WR Gallun
Griff —
I might as well make one more point — though it doesn’t straight forwardly address something you have said.
THE GREEN INDUSTRY IS ALL ABOUT ELIMINATING COMPETITION — and thus creating demand for its own expensive products. It uses government to do this. (Capitalism, through the free market, eliminates the least efficient suppliers.)
Coal plants must be closed — so big government dictates! How is that energy supply to be replaced? An artificial demand for expensive green energy is thus created.
Nuclear power plants must be close — so big government dictates! More artificial demand for expensive green energy is created.
Oil fired plants must be closed — so big government dictates! More artificial demand for expensive green energy is created.
Gas fired plants must be closed — so big government dictates! More artificial demand for expensive green energy is created.
Finally the only supplies of energy come from hugely expensive green sources. Through government all competition has been eliminated. THAT IS NOT FREE ENTERPRISE. That is crony socialism.
Eugene WR Gallun
Renewable energy is not necessarily a result of government intervention…
Your objection is based on political views, not environmental or economic ones…
Griff says, in answer to Eugene:
Quite right, Griff. All those windmills and solar farms were built using private capital because a whole load of venture capitalists thought windmills and PVs was such a good idea. /s
There is not a solar panel on a roof anywhere that isn’t there because of government pay-back (from non-PV-owning tax-payers) If it wasn’t for the subsidies wind and solar would not exist at the level it does. It’s a con – and you’re too bound up in your socialist dogma to know it.
Grift: ‘Renewable energy is not necessarily a result of government intervention…’
Boy, that’s a cop-out response – typical from your company-line jargon/spin – actually, it’s almost exclusively government intervention as a result of activist pressure.
I think someone’s invested in ‘renewables’ (based on a fantasy, of course), and now they want their pay-off.
…Griff…simple logic…the hotter it gets outside, the harder your A.C. / Fridge must work…(peak demand)..Shutting off your fridge and/or your A.C at this time DEFEATS the purpose of the fridge and/or the refrigerator ! D’oh !
Griff —
You say — “Renewable energy is not necessarily a result of government intervention…”
If that is true then you should have no difficulty naming situations where renewable energy is expanding without government intervention. Start naming them. I’m serious, NAME THEM!!!
For some reason I am reminded of communes of the hippy era that claimed to scorn the government and demanded to live absolutely independent lives — who in reality financed themselves through welfare checks. First order of business on entering any commune was to get on welfare.
Name some form of renewable energy that isn’t receiving its own “welfare check”. Go ahead, do it.
Eugene WR Gallun
Makes sense to me. If you have a secure, reliable source of continuously available energy like nuclear, why on earth would you want to waste time, money and space playing silly games with unreliables?
A question that some are asking of the French Govt who are planning to reduce significantly the nuclear component of their energy provision ;
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2016/08/30/france-to-cut-nuclear-power-by-a-third/
A comment from edhoskins on that site reveals that the current CO2 emission levels/head of population is already below global and EU average: In terms of Tonnes CO2/head/year:
France : 4.42
global: 4.46
EU: 6.9
USA: 16.8
China: 6.4
India: 1.7(approx)
WUWT a year or more ago introduced some of us to the work of Prof Weissbach who concluded that the mix of nuclear + hydro (as in France) is the dream ticket economically (and in for CO2 control) and renewables are only viable options for countries rich enough to bear the waste of economic resources that renewables involve.
“Unreliables”. I like it!
Nuclear is massively more effective at reducing CO2 emissions than any other “renewable”.
Antinuclear countris like Germany make up for nuclear with dirty coal and massively increased CO2 emissions.
What the University of Sussex and Vienna School of International Studies are saying is that being pro windmills and solar panels and anti nuclear is more important than reducing CO2 emissions.
So doing the renewables politics right is more important than actual CO2 reduction.
Even assuming that CO2 is harmful.
Is there any limit to the byzantinne chicanery and dishonesty of these climate apparatchiks?
Nuclear and gas fracking are by far and away the two most effective ways to reduce CO2 emissions.
Curious that both of these are enemies of the Khmer Vert Environmentist State eco-terrorists.
Economy, fool!
Modern nuclear is VERY expensive, but is quite reliable as base load. So if a country builds it there is no spare money to throw them away on so called renewables.
But, as usually, this study takes into account only countries which fit into conclusion of this study. If you look at Poland – no nuclear and no wind and sun, energy mix based on coal (90%) and hydro. And it is not small country like Denmark, Hungary, Ireland.
In total electricity production Poland is above of Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Ireland, Norway, Netherlands, Bulgaria – all mentioned in the study.
Interesting cherry picking.
The greens only care about their agenda
In Oregon after the Biscuit fire the timber companies wanted to go in and salvage the timber that they could and replant
The greens sued to stop it and won
Billions of board of timber rotted on the ground it didn’t make money for anyone workers companies or taxes it just rotted
Just like the greenies rotten
Shout it from the rooftops, keep this paper in the headlines.
Never has it been more clearly stated that CO2 isn’t the problem, the renewables crowd are not interested in the environment – they want to destroy the western way of living.
Using renewables does not reduce emissions (except hydro – which they also object to). They want to increase the cost of energy, and hence competitiveness by insisting on having two energy systems, one being renewables and the other, a backup system.
These people are either morons or enemies of civilisation. I have my view of them, but I suppose they could also be both!
SteveT
How does it destroy the western way of living?
Germany I can assure you has a comfortable western lifestyle and 32% renewable electricity and a thriving economy
Griff —
The thriving German economy and comfortable western lifestyle were created BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE renewables.
Its like the old joke about Socialism — it works until you run out of other peoples money to spend.
Renewables are living off the fat created by oil, gas and coal. Soon enough the energy situation in Germany will go to hell. And so will the German economy and comfortable western lifestyle.
Eugene WR Gallun
.Griff…..If stupidity hurt, you would be in perpetual pain !!….Germany, like Greece, is nearing energy and economic bankruptcy, On top of that, you have the outrageous liberal immigration problem….This will not end well,,,,for all of Europe…
http://notrickszone.com/2016/07/15/german-power-giant-risks-becoming-largest-bankruptcy-in-german-business-history/#sthash.9z3IwwFp.dpbs
Germany is facing many headwinds.
You are right to mention their energy companies, and immigration, but there is also Deutche Bank that is teetering on the edge of collapse and some predict (probably exaggerated) that the fallout will be 5 times worse than Lehmans. See:
http://www.silverdoctors.com/gold/gold-news/jim-willie-if-deutsche-bank-goes-under-it-will-be-lehman-times-five/
The cost of dealing with the migrant/immigration problem is placed at somewhere between £100,000 to £1,000,000 per head. The bill is likely to be a trillion dollars. It is not clear where this money is coming from. The social costs could be even more serious.
Germany also faces the knock on effect of Brexit. The UK paid net into the EU about £10 billion. Unless the EU is scaled back, this net payment will have to be found from somewhere and there are only a few European economies that could afford to make up this shortfall. Germany will have to bear the lion share of this say £6 billion.
More importantly is the trade position. I have not checked but I have read that Germany does £100 billion per year trade with the UK, but UK only does £10 billion of trade with Germany. If this is right this is a huge problem for Germany unless the EU agrees that the UK can continue to trade with the EU at zero tariff.
If say a 6% tariff is imposed then the UK will pay £600,000 to the German exchequer (on £10 billion of goods sold) but Germany will pay £6 billion to the UK exchequer (on £100 billion of goods sold). If German industry tries to pass this expense onto the consumer then German goods would be less competitive and Germany may end up losing say £10 to £15 billion of its annual trade with the UK without its European neighbours being able to buy the short sold goods. German industry will not wish to pass this expense on to the end consumer and German industry is already struggling with the high cost of the Euro (there has been about a 8% reduction in the strength of Sterling and Germany is already absorbing the flip side of this by not having put up the costs of its goods).
Worse still the UK could say to Germany if tariffs are to be imposed we will impose a 20% tariff on Germany goods but only a 5% tariff on Spanish and Italian goods. This would largely price German goods out of the market and would cause a shift in UK purchase from German to Italian and Spanish goods. Consider the impact of this on the motor manufacturing section. Where UK buyers would switch from buying German cars (and the like) to Italian and Spanish cars etc. The divide and conquer strategy could cause Germany a lot of problems in the negotiations.
With Brexit, the UK could pursue a different energy programme and lower corporate tax structure encouraging German Industry to relocate to the UK. Especially if the UK opens up its shale prospects.
With Brexit, the EU could collapse and all of this is a big problem for Germany. It is likely that Germany will rue the day it has pursued such a stupid energy policy making energy prices so high burdening their industries.
Yes Marcus, not only RWE but EON are in trouble as renewables take over from conventional power generation (though the nuclear shut down and decomm costs also impact both).
Just like when the horse and buggy manufacturers shut down as the Model T came off the production lines.
Germany however (and its industry) are thriving.
According to this https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/what-german-households-pay-power
the Germans are paying $.29 per kWhr for electricity, higher than even California.
Griff,
If RWE and EON go down, it is over and out for renewables too and for Germany, except if the state nationalizes everything.
As said elsewhere: heavily subsidized wind and solar have absolute priority on the net, without any obligation for stabilizing the net. That is completely on the shoulders of the conventional manufacturers, which then make a loss. That has nothing to do with the real marketing costs of power manufacturing and everything to do with political steering of the market to push renewables at any cost…
They are also “math challenged”. “Renewable” doesn’t add up. Strange they don’t care about the destruction of the landscape, birds and bats.
…”University of Sussex and (Vienna School of International Studies)”
…”Lead author Andrew Lawrence of the (Vienna School of International Relations)”
Which one is correct ? Or is it two different schools ?
The figures are simple lies. Denmark and Germany have not reduced emissions at all, which still remain at 5 times what nuclear France’s are per megawatt hour.
Their models may say that windmills reduce emissions. Te actual data on fuel burn in the power industry shows that by and large they do not.
By far and away the least emitting European nations are those that have substantial hydro and nuclear, or both together,
There seems to be a desperate attempt by Big Green to fill the silly season with a co-ordinated propaganda push on climate and ‘renewable’ energy. I suppose that hot weather ,makes it an easier piece of cockwomble to swallow.
Only the US has significantly cut its CO2 emissions and this is because of the switch from coal to gas.
Renewables do not result in the reduction of CO2 because of the need for fossil fuel backup and that backup has to be run efficiently (ramp up/ramp down mode) which result in almost the same consumption of fossil fuels (hence CO2 emissions) if the backup was merely run efficiently 24/7 365 days a year.
One only requires the backup, the renewables which are piggy backed are surplus to requirements.
It is noteworthy that not a single conventionally powered generator has been closed down as a consequence of the roll out of renewables. All conventionally powered generators are still required (to act as back up). This demonstrates why there has been no meaningful or measurable reduction in CO2 despite the roll out of renewables.
That’s not true Richard… the loss of efficiency in ramp up/down of CGCT gas is less than 1%
Griff,
You forget that a (large) part of wind loss must be met with fast gas turbines with an energetic yield of 25-30%, while a STEG or coal plant gets 45-50%, but can’t cope with the speed that wind drops…
Professor Andy Stirling, Professor of Science and Technology Policy at the University of Sussex
Dr. Storling,professor of green propaganda
The sacrament of wind and solar. Countries must install wind/solar as a declaration of orthodoxy.
Sovacool is wrong. I guess this confirms its possible to be a uk university professor with huge knowledge gaps.
The report states
“By suppressing better ways to meet climate goals, evidence suggests entrenched commitments to nuclear power may actually be counterproductive”, which means they equate “failure to support” equals suppression.
If so, then suppression=failure to support.
What a new view; Hitler failed to support Judaism – true, murderers fail to support their victims – true, Europeans failed to support the 3rd world in the colonial period – true, Chine fails to support Tibetans, the Uyghur etc – true,, and so on.
Perhaps wife-bashers shouldn’t be charged with assault any more, but with failing to support their wives?
And of course, the Greens fail to support freedom of speech, nuclear power, the right of 3rd world countries to free themselves from subordination to the Western powers.
After all that history the world has been through, the Green agenda seems quite familiar, the names change but the issue is the same – POWER. That is, the ability to compel others to follow your orders.
Eco-fascism on the march.
Sorry, fruit loops are out of fashion. Plenty of nuclear renewal on the cards besides Hinkley. The smart money is in wind turbine scrappage and recovery futures.
It is worth reading the below article that focuses on the unsuitability and high expense of renewables in the UK environment (Comparative effectiveness of weather dependent Renewable Energy in the UK), but the points made are largely applicable elsewhere. See:
https://edmhdotme.wordpress.com/comparative-effectiveness-of-renewable-energy-in-the-uk/
The article seems to treat solar output as if it arrives evenly across every day of the year… whereas of course it delivers most during daytime from April through to October…
As during the summer mid day on weekdays is a (not the, a) point of peak demand for electricity it thus supplies a lot of peak demand… you can see it here represented as a drop in demand around mid day:
http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
you’ll also note that the periods when demand remains high at start and end of day are being addressed by hydro and pumped storage – the new grid storage which the National Grid has just put out to tender will additionally help out as solar predictably ramps up and down; also note how low coal usage is now, after March 2016.
In short, solar plus gas (and existing nuclear) can cover UK summer demand quite adequately, with an increasing contribution form solar and frequent contributions from wind on days when its not sunny…
The other half of this being that UK wind power delivers most from November to March…
Griff —
“In short, solar plus gas (and existing nuclear) can cover UK summer demand quite adequately –”
Griff, you are blind to the important point — gas (and existing nuclear) can cover UK summer demand quite adequately — WITHOUT ANY EXPENSIVE RENEWABLES WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!! Nobody needs this renewable crap! It is being forced upon the UK!
Oh, and a question — come out of the closet and explain exactly what is good about low coal usage.
Eugene WR Gallun
Sheer bloody delusion! Words fail me. You, Griff are what is known as a plonker – and I think you know where that comes from.
Eugene
We don’t have to import it (50% of all UK coal comes from Russia), coal burning is a health issue and of course it produces more CO2 than gas …
Griff —
Let me see, isn’t England the country that imports wood chips from the US to support some loony green power project?
Coal is cheap and coal fired plants are all payed for. No new capital investment needed. That makes coal power very cheap power. Whether England imports the coal or not, coal is still the cheapest power supply around. And England has to import coal because of restrictions greenies have got placed on its mining. You complain about a problem people like you created, Griff.
Burning coal is a health issue? Not for fifty years, Griff. Its like you live in the London fogs of a hundred and fifty years ago. And surprisingly enough, cheap coal power, even at its polluting worst of that time era, saved a hundred times more lives than it cost. You totally neglect the benefits cheap power brings to human health and comfort. Longevity scales with cheap power, Griff. Cheap power means longer lives.
And finally, we get to the truth, the real issue you have with coal. IT IS EVIL CARBON AND EVIL CARBON IS DESTROYING THE WORLD! WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE FROM GLOBAL WARMING! Isn’t that your real issue?
It should be noted that Greenies are pressing their war on carbon in the same way that the Nazi went after groups they consider dangerous. They picked coal as the easiest to destroy. so the first to be attacked.
First they came for coal, but i did not speak up. Next they came for oil but I did not speak up. Then they came for gas — and again I did not speak up After that i froze to death.
Eugene WR Gallun
I like comments that contain numbers and I abhor judgments as “Modern nuclear is VERY expensive.” How much is “expensive” and why “modern” is expensive? Most products became cheaper with manufacturing progress over the years. Anyway, here are some numbers: An 880 MW nuclear plant cost 0.5 $/W nameplate in 1975 which amounts to 4.45×0.5 = 2.2 $/W when adjusted for inflation to 2015. In its 40+ years years of operation, with CF= 88 %, it were delivering 2.4 $/W actual. The plant is still running today, 40 years later, at full capacity, capable of going to 60 years+, politics excluded.
So this is the number to remember 2.4 $/W ACTUALLY DELIVERED capital cost. That’s how much utilities dolled out before DOE got involved in their business.
Compare the actual numbers for wind and solar plants: They will have to be built three times in that 60 years span, tripling their $/W comparable cost. Their CF averages 1/4th to 1/5th overall thereby quadrupling to quintupling their $/W. Are they cheaper to operate then nuclear? Remember, cost of nuclear fuel is, although not free, negligible on the scale of the other expenses and yield.
Let’s share numbers that reveal the nameplate and actual investment in $/W. Also longevity (60 years vs. 20), operational expenses (the # of employees for the actual average wattage delivered to the grid) over the life span, in addition to the common one s such as W/m2.
It suits greenees well that nameplate power is given in watts but actual output in watthour, the latter usually in Wh/y where the year is omitted. Non-calculator comparison is impossible. To help you convert from the actual Wh/y to W, consider that 1 MWh/y = 0.114 kW. Or 1 GWh/y = 1 MW.
Jake,
First, read my whole comment.
Second, look at the initial cost of actual proposition of nuclear for UK and check real money spent in Finland and France on latest nuclear plants.
And – I do not compare nuclear with windmills, I simply tell that when you will spend A LOT on nuclear you will not be spending for something else. And such situation can happen independently of greens being in power or not.
Finally my comment was not implying I am green or mad environmentalist.
Environmentalists talk a lot about the environment, but are the last group to understand its workings.
Oops, forgot a few digits in the last number above. For completeness:
1 TWh/year = 0.114 GW
1 GWh/y = 0.114 MW
1 MWh/y = 0.114 kW
1 kWh/y = 0.114 W
1 Wh/y = 0.114 mW
“Conversely, cheaper, safer, and more adaptable alternative energy sources are available for all countries.” Please name one, Mr. Andrew Lawrence.
Well in the Saudi Arabia of uranium we naturally have no nuke power (we smoked but never inhaled) but we have lots of wind as you know (you can cut out all the States except SA if you like and have a play with the check boxes and different time periods for a wry smile)-
http://energy.anero.id.au/wind-energy/2016/august
but wait there’s more scintillating breaking news from the watermelons-
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_flannery_cooked_on_the_hot_rocks/
after the writing was on the wall some time ago-
http://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/petratherm-calls-it-quits-the-slow-death-of-australias-geothermal-sector/
and pics of Oceanlinx wave generators on the rocks need no more sad pictorials here but it all adds up to a long tale of woe for taxpayers in general-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-26/sun-sets-on-sa-solar-plan/2811112
Only when the rolling blackouts begin in earnest will these snake oil merchants and carpetbaggers be finally run out of town and the long haul back to rational science and policy begin to emerge again from the dark age. The only question being whether we hit banana republic status before that occurs.
I can just as easilly point out that those Euro countries who are negative on nuclear power (Germany, which is shutting down most or all of its nuclear plants, to be repaced by coal power plants) usually are the most eager for wind and solar, Germany, which formerly was the world’s greatest consumer of solar panels
but not anymore, excepted. The only point this article is actually making is that European countries that like nuclear, don’t particularly like unreliable renewables amnd vice versa. Gee, what a surprise!!!
Nor are there any serious questions with respect to nuclear costs or safety and I would claim that the advent of molten salt reactors, currently being developed by companies in three major countries (U.S. Canada, China) makes any questions about costs safety, or any other nuclear negative, totally obsolete.
There is no rational reason to claim that we cannot wait the 5 to 10 years for commercialized molten salt reactors and must build renewable power producers. These people are, in fact, nuclear ignorant in all aspects of the technology.
Note that the rest of the world’s countries, which far, far outnumber theose located in Europe, are pretty eager for nuclear and we can start with China, which has built a lot of windmills, hydro and some solar, but which now can produce in house their own reactors (and sell them abroad) with something like 35 reactors being currently constructed. India is also building, as are Arab oil producing states, which one would think would be in the best position to employ solar. Russia is making deals with a lot of countries – East European, Arabian, Britain, etc and is guaranteeing build costs that ensure the power those plants produce will be cheaper than any renewable energy. The fallacy oof low cost renewables is the belief that with no fuel costs, they must be cheap. Well, current light water reactors only spend 3/4 of a cent per kWhr
for their uranium fuel, and molten salt reactors will have fuel costs that are essentially too small to calculate.
Most of those who talk nuclear power exhibit enormous ignorance. They talk about nuclear meltdowns
as thought they have inflicted casulaties (they haven’t, save the Communist Russia Chernobyl reactor, which killed a mere two dozen outright and hundreds more over the next decades). Nuclear reactors in this country and elsewhere have emergency centers waiting to airlift any equipment needed to preven any future meltdowns. There will be no future meltdowns, in my opinion. The new reactors are practically walk away safe and molten salt reactors are physically unable to melt down or release radioactive particles to any significant area.
There is no Russian involvement in planned UK new nuclear – it is French/Chinese financed; Chinese; US/Japanese; US
Germany closed 40% of its nuclear plant overnight in 2011 – the slack has been mostly taken up by renewables: the coal plant building programme in Germany is over as of 2016 (only 1 in the pipeline which will probably never get approval)
The slack was taken up by the building of coal powered plants.
If renewables could have fulfilled that gap, then Germany would not have built one new coal power station as from 2011 onwards.
The Government new that Solar could not fulfill requirements and that is why it took the step to immediately build new coal fired power stations.
The German coal programme was planned in 2008 to replace nuclear, that’s true – but the shut down plans for nukes changed a couple of times, most of the coal plant planned wasn’t built and nearly all of it replaced less efficient older coal plant.
Germans are not building any more coal, they didn’t build due to any failing of renewables, they are starting on shutting it down…
If you think I’m being a wee bit melodramatic here, you’ll recall how our State Treasurer in a tiz when the wind didn’t blow, prices for the punters were going sky high and he was begging for some gas fired power from a mothballed local generator, he was also screeching for more interconnection to states like Victoria with their reliance on brown coal. Well guess what-
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/banning_ourselves_into_the_stone_age/
No respite there from Blair’s Law I’m afraid to say-
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Blair%27s%20Law
Last time I checked, nuclear power did not generate CO2.
Yet more evidence that the environmentalists are at their core, anti-people.