From Forbes:
Diablo Canyon Power Plant, 2009 photo from offshore. The light beige domes are the containment structures for Unit 1 and 2 reactors. The brown building is the turbine building where electricity is generated and sent to the grid. In the foreground is the Administration Building (black and white stripes). Picture: “Mike” Michael L. Baird via Wikimedia
The Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) issued a press release today stating that they have signed a deal with PG&E PCG +0.10%, IBEW local 1245, the Coalition of California Utility Employees, Friends of the Earth, Environment California, and the Alliance for Nuclear Responsibility.
There is an implied quid pro quo. The groups will support PG&E’s request for an extension from the California Lands Commission of its land use permit that allows access to ocean cooling water at the Commission’s June 28 meeting. In return, PG&E will agree to withdraw its 20-year license extension application at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission . Instead, it will aim to retire the two-unit site when its current licenses expire in 2024 and 2025.
The press release claims that the electricity produced by the plant will be replaced with a combination of wind, solar, and “energy efficiency.”
“Energy efficiency and clean renewable energy from the wind and sun can replace aging nuclear plants — and this proves it. The key is taking the time to plan. Nuclear power versus fossil fuels is a false choice based on yesterday’s options,” said NRDC President Rhea Suh.
That’s a deceptive fig leaf; it is physically impossible for wind, solar and energy efficiency to replace the steady production of a nuclear power plant. Producing the same total number of kilowatt-hours each year is not the same as producing the same kilowatt-hours on a minute by minute, hour by hour or day by day basis.
Full story here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rodadams/2016/06/21/breaking-nrdc-announces-pge-has-agreed-to-kill-diablo-canyon/
Over at Friends of the Earth (FOE) they say:
Diablo Canyon is the nuclear plant that catalyzed the formation of Friends of the Earth in 1969. When David Brower founded Friends of the Earth the Diablo Canyon was the first issue on the organization’s agenda and Friends of the Earth has been fighting the plant ever since. This agreement is not only a milestone for renewable energy, but for Friends of the Earth as an organization.
Gosh, what will they do now? Get a new target I suppose. Maybe they’ll ask that California be the first “automobile free state” in the USA, after all, all the automotive manufacturing plants have already left California. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Bloomberg had the best headline: Losing a Nuclear Weapon Against Climate Change
Some environmentalists are thrilled at Tuesday’s announcement of the planned closing of California’s Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant. They might want to reconsider: Fighting climate change requires more nuclear power, not less.
The losers in this plan, which is pending regulatory approval, are all those who will suffer the consequences of climate change. That Diablo Canyon’s two reactors could be allowed to shut down is alarming evidence that too little effort is being made to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. The climate-friendly electricity that the Diablo Canyon plant generates, which amounts to about 9 percent of California’s power, would be lost.
Welcome to the darkness. You thought the Enron trading scam induced blackouts in California around 2000 were bad? Wait til 2025. Let’s all sit in the dark and chant kumabahya while we wait for wind and solar to come online again.
energy efficiency….no one has any
The whole energy conservation argument can be boiled down to:
The answer to hunger is to eat less.
Environmental Defence & Greenpeace Canada, April 9, 2015
Their Study includes both the Canadian Tar Sands and the Canadian auto industry.
Scroll down to: The need to change all cars and trucks in Canada to EVs.
http://greenpeace.org/canada/Global/canada/pr/2015/04/Energy-strategy.pdf
Wrong analogy. The answer to being fat is to eat less. Many people are very wasteful of both food and energy and consume far more than is needed. 10% reduction is quite feasible without “starving “.
“The answer to hunger is to eat less.”
Almost. In the socialist metric, the answer to hunger is to reduce the amount of people who need to eat.
¿¿¿What are they thinking???
If you were to try and replace the production capacity of Diablo Canyon with Molton Salt heliostat systems like Ivanpah, it would require 70 generators. The facility would completely cover San Francisco, South San Francisco, Daily City, Millbrae, down to a line from Pacifica to San Mateo. Just remove everyone and everything south of the GG Bridge down to San Mateo and west to the coast and cover the area with Mirrors.
Or go with Wind Farms and cover 3 times that area…all the way down to San Jose, just to replace Diablo Canyon
Only one problem with Ivanpah:
They haven’t exceeded 2/3 of their necessary production estimate.
At the time of the recent fire, they had one system down for maintenance.
So that puts them at 1/9th of what they need to be able to produce.
Actually not a bad idea, paving over SF with mirrors. Make sure you have a sturdy wall around the Bay area first, though…
Then of course there’s the Topaz Solar Farm that covers 9 sq mi to produce 1/4 of final capacity so Solar PV needs 36 square miles of area to replace Diablo Canyon on 900 acres
The phrase “energy efficiency” is meaningless without cost factored in.
Costs are meaningless when you have a government that can force someone else to pay them.
Not really. Just so long as you include those costs, not try to hide them, which is what they do.
Bruce
I think ‘energy efficiency.’ means – moving all productive industry out-of-state.
To – I guess – Texas.
Auto, a Brit – but looking at CA norms . . . .
Astounding… just… wow.
Kumabahya! Yep – looks like another few years and the Californians will once again be demanding power be stripped from other areas of the country to serve their precocious and sensitive population. Although I do agree that those nuclear plants, such as Diablo Canyon, which are now over 40 years old, should be shut down. But replace them rather than simply remove them from the equation.
Power already comes from Palo Verde in Arizona… So just add a plant there…
It will be adamantly denied, but Palo Verde was designed for a total of 12 reactors in a ring around the switchyard. Any plans for further expansion beyond the 3 in progress at the time (and all that there are) were murdered after the California PRC (in mid ’80s) vowed that there would not be any new power plants (nuclear or otherwise) in California, but that it was perfectly OK to build plants in other states to service California.
Much like China building Coal Powered Plants to generate electricity for Green Europe
“Who run Bartertown?”
“Master-Blaster runs Bartertown”
“Embargo Over”
Hey! I’m over 40 years old. Should I be shut down?
Never trust anyone under 60. Now, get off my damned lawn.
I can’t wait for the rolling blackouts to start.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-california-heatwave-idUSKCN0Z62B8
could be a matter of days my friend
Ha! Started today!
I liked the fact that wind solar and energy efficiency were considered separate categories. That at least is an unintended acknowledgement that wind and solar are not energy efficient.
So-called “green” technologies are neither efficient energy converters nor efficient land consumers. Modern commercial wind and solar enterprises are notorious disruptors of the natural environment, but have remarkable lobbying organizations (e.g. environmentalists).
Watch their cost per KWH when the green subsidies expire??? Ouch
They will just import electricity from other states when the wind does not blow nor the sun shine. See the state is GHG free, everyone should follow our example.
They buy nuclear from Arizona, oil from Mexico and coal from Nevada. Oh yes they are so green. Bet me.
I also wonder what was in the deal? Does PG&E make more money from the deal than if they ran the plant with all the maintenance and retrofits that would be required?
Was not PG&E in bankruptcy not long ago? big lawsuits?
They traded something they wanted, an extension from the California Lands Commission of its land use permit that allows access to ocean cooling water, for something they were unlikely to ever get anyway, a 20-year license extension for a Nuclear power plant in Enviro crazy California that would have been 55 years old by then.
Sometimes you can’t stop people getting what they asked for. The problem is most of these people really have no idea what they have asked for and end up very surprised.
The people of South Australia,have had the experience of a power black-out through lack of power from their “Bird Mincers”last year.You see,they get power from “Dirty Coal”from Victoria when said”Bird Mincers”aren’t producing enough “Electricity”One of the Inter-connectors from Victoria blew up and the other connectors couldn’t provide enough juice to the state.California,you are NEXT.Dumb as “Dog $hit”
When the gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.
Since “no” is also an answer, change that to “give you what you ask for” and you’ll be good to go.
Can you say rolling blackouts THIS YEAR? https://ca.news.yahoo.com/california-power-grid-prepares-heatwave-possible-natgas-shortage-053612470–finance.html
Given the geologic instability of coastal California, I’m not overly saddened by this news. I’m also hopeful that PG&E is foregoing permit renewal for this plant because it will be switching to a new nuclear paradigm by 2025.
I agree. The plant is quite old and was recently closed for an extended period for repairs.
Hey! I had heart surgery and was in the hospital for 19 days, just a few years ago. Should I have been measured for a coffin?
it wasn’t the earthquake that did for Fukushima. it was the flooding
Nukes can withstand a LOT of seismic activity, and worse
The big failure at Fukushima was not protecting the emergency backup generators to the same level as the control room. They put the generators in the basement…which got flooded. It was an epic management failure to do such a stupid thing.
What did in Fukushima was being run by TEPCO. They are horribly incompetent.
This has always bothered me, as a proponent of nuclear power. The Japanese, as a nation, make all sorts of engineered and manufactured products of outstanding quality. Just stand on a street anywhere other than Europe or North America and count the cars that aren’t made in Japan. So if the Japanese can’t build a nuclear power station that is proof against all predictable hazards, who can?
It was one thing to point at Chernobyl and say, that’s what you get when the Soviets build a nuke. Then compare it with Three Mile island which suffered a loss-of-coolant incident (who closed that valve and why? the question was never answered but the juxtaposition in time with a movie called the China Syndrome was a bit odd) but experienced no radiation leaks. That was good, it was one of the mainstays of arguing pro-nuclear.
Then came Fukushima. It made it a whole lot harder to argue about nuclear power with greenies, or even with regular undecided people (even here in Ontario, where without nuclear power the lights would have gone out a long time ago). Never mind the debate about how serious the radiation event was, a power station had to close down and will probably never reopen, and the cost of closing it will be beyond astronomical.
Damn. Why couldn’t the Japanese nuclear industry have acted a bit more “Japanese”?
If you’re worried about geologic instability, then you also need to question why the California Valley Solar Ranch was built a couple of miles from the San Andreas fault covering large sections of the environmentally sensitive Carrizo Plain.
No environmentalists raised a peep about that. You can see it and the fault on google earth
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3543769,-120.0227114,14254m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
Yes, all those black squares are solar panels and each one is federally subsidized.
Doonman,
It is childishly simple to draw a surface fault line on a map and then to claim that it represents a danger area for the location of a new nuclear plant.
New nuclear plants are built with very good engineering, and you can be assured that such engineering is well acquainted with the best possible view of proximity to faults.
Apart from that, earthquakes can occur virtually anywhere. Some have done so in places that defy geological explanation. But new nuclear plants are not so bothered by them.
Mr Sherrington, while your proposition is correct, that is not the point that Doonman was making. He was commenting on the stupidity of siting a solar array on a known major fault, also in an environmentally sensitive area.
To make an omelette you have to break a few eggs. Defeatist!
I’m pretty sure the plant was built to the seismic code. Secondly, what crippled Fukushima plant in Japan was the tsunami, not the earthquake itself. San Andreas fault is not a subduction type, and (contrary to the “San Andreas” movie), it does not produce tsunamis.
The Tsunami wave did not harm the control room. It flooded the basement where the backup generators were. Had they put the generators adjacent to the control room with the same level of protection, none of the problems would have occurred. As it is it destroyed the entire nuclear power industry in Japan. Stupidity on top of stupidity.
The main problem at Fukushima was not at the reactors but the fuel storage ponds. The use of zirconium fuel cladding was the cause of hydrogen liberation and the explosions which destroyed the buildings. Zirconium = flashbulb metal.
“The main problem at Fukushima was not at the reactors but the fuel storage ponds”
That’s a myth!
Had the greens not blocked spent fuel rod transportation, they wouldn’t need storage ponds. Not a myth.
Yeah, but all the fuel will just sit there and cook year after year just waiting for an “event” We have a finished depository but Harry Scum Dog Reid prevented it’s use.
..It is hard to believe that in this day and age, liberals STILL cannot do simple math !!!
-Marcus
They’re getting worse!
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-solarcity-m-a-tesla-idUSKCN0Z72WP; for Marcus
It is worse than that. I live 5 miles from Diablo Canyon. Tonight on the local news as they were announcing the closing, they interviewed an environmentalist who proclaimed that closing Diablo Canyon was a huge step toward solving climate change. You just can’t make up this sort of lunacy.
The local economy will lose 1500 high paying jobs and $1 BILLION dollars from the plant closing. Diablo Canyon’s property taxes support 15% of the local school budgets. There is no plan to make up for the power deficit or the huge loss of revenue in San Luis Obispo County.
I’d love to find out how the brain dead environmentalists figures that closing a power source that does not produce CO2 is going to help solve “climate change”.
Since Nuclear produces no CO2, the closing of a Nuclear power plant, even by the standards of the Eco-Naz!s, does nothing to “solve” climate change (as if human activities can control the climate – LMFAO). And, since, even IF they were right about the science, all the “solutions” they proposed wouldn’t change a damn thing (the proposed reductions of CO2 would, IF they were right about the science, reduce the amount of warming by an amount too small to be accurately measured by a period measured in weeks a hundred years from now).
It just goes to show how clueless and/or dishonest the Eco-Naz!s are about their “cause.”
There’s no need to call them “nazis” IMO that’s just as bad as them calling us “deniers”. Comments like this are not helpful and will be snipped if repeated.
“Math is hard”
Barbie
PG&E needs to fight these bastards. Perhaps the best move would have been to say OK, we’ll shut it down today. Then put the blame where it belongs for the blackouts. Why stretch it out for years.
Or go to court and let them win, so as to firmly place the blame on the watermelons.
Who says they fought it? Maybe the plant was end of life anyway (without retrofits, etc). Maybe they won? What was in the deal $$$$?
Public utilities are guaranteed a % return on assets so if you change the asset base they lose money flows that is why they fought.
I think they basically went bankrupt trying to keep San Onofre open.
Interesting. This must also mean that the Helms Creek Power Project will be shut down as well. Its design was dependent on cheap night time excess power from Diablo Canyon to be feasible. Pump water uphill at night, release it during the day. Its gonna be a total loser without cheap power. Good luck using solar and wind at night.
Additionally, the single largest power user in the state, the Tehachapi pumps that pump water to Southern California, which also used cheap nighttime power, will become less efficient and about three times more expensive to operate without Diablo Canyon on line. Perhaps the environmentalists will all move to Bakersfield and volunteer to man bicycle generators to help out.
It is really unfortunate that the folks who will be most affected – the massive increased costs to pump the water (Tehachapi pumps), the Helms creek peaking system and its efficiencies, etc – will not have the opportunity to just say NO to the plan. If the true costs and unintended consequences were thoroughly explained and approved by those affected the plan would NOT be approved.
Isn’t there some way that we could sue the environmental loons who campaigned to close down Diablo Canyon with no plan to replace the power or the huge economical hit that the Central Coast will take when the plant closes?
isthatright June 21, 2016 at 9:42 pm
As with your earlier post perhaps a open letter in your town newspaper to the local teachers union inquiring what “they” think of the pending loss to the education budget. And what will “their” remedy be? Cut staff? Increase class size? Cut pay and benefits? Rant at the public to save them? Or perhaps vent their fury at the “greens” for damaging the economy. Hmmm, I think they’ll just stuck to the tried and untrue and blame the republicans……
michael
so pump the water uphill during the day (solar power the pumps). You might be able to put some of the panels floating on the lake behind the dam
Have you ever seen the calculations describing the height and quantity of water necessary to store even one kilowatt-hour of electricity – even disregarding the efficiency losses, Grifter?
Obviously not…
Bucket brigades
They have been fighting it since 1969! Why? What horrible outcomes has this plant resulted in? Seems like they have been wasting their time. Now they feel they have succeeded at something when in fact the only result is quite negative. Would someone from FOE reading this please explain their motivation just so I can understand?
After 55 years in operation, the nuclear power plant will be shut down. As originally planed.
Clearly a great victory for FOE. :p
There were indeed rolling blackouts today. It was all over the Business News Network. When the politicians are held responsible for it, they run like hell from the enviro whackos.
The greens will blame global warming and the fires . .
Just curious Anthony. Do you have storage on your solar? Net metering?
TIA
And the constant rolling blackouts in southern California will commence in 2024.
The cost of an average house in California is $440k. It’s pretty easy to justify adding another $10k or $20k of solar with battery and maybe a NG generator.
But what about renters who have to pay their own utility bills? They’ll be stuck with much higher rates. Don’t wait for the headlines, “Rich Liberal Activists Declare Victory; Poor Hit Hardest”.
I live in a $700k house. $20k is still a big ticket item for me. I have many other things on my priority list ahead of that to spend that amount of money on.
Greg,
While large solar subsidies exist for rooftop solar, are you not bludging on your mates who cannot get it because their roof is wrong, they are in a tall apartment with a tiny roof for example, or they cannot afford the extra, or even if your mates calculate that it is not a cost effective way to spend their money and decline?
Apologies to Anthony or anyone who has special needs, but the main reason I never went rooftop is that I don’t want to force others to help subsidise me. It is not a fair thing. It is like stealing from your friends.
Drop all the subsidies and it is a different story.
Average cost of a house in California is $440K? What are people who work for a living and are looking to buy a house supposed to do? I think house prices are distorted upwards by policies that become laws, which come into place because there are more homeowners than prospective 1st-time homeowners, and this problem is not confined to California.
“I think house prices are distorted upwards by policies that become laws, which come into place because there are more homeowners than prospective 1st-time homeowners, and this problem is not confined to California.”
The cause is simple: Severe restrictions on the availability of land that can be built on. By the greens of course. It is called “smart growth”; “new urbanism”. Sireea Klub web site has a section on the advantages of “smart growth”. They fail to mention that housing prices skyrocket and traffic congestion becomes intolerable.
Google Wendell Cox, Randal O’Toole, See http://www.debunkingportland.com/housing.html
I have solar panels on my house which should equal the our electrical usage on an annual basis. The problem is that there is both a diurnal as well as a seasonal offset. The largest power usage daily is in the evening while the maximum solar production is between Noon and 1:00 PM. Seasonally, the largest electrical usage is in the Winter when solar production is minimal. I have no idea how renewable energy is going to compensate for the closing of Diablo Canyon.
You bring a very valid point to the conversation: does anyone know of a single solar plant that has produced the design capacity for daily, monthly and annually?
All that I have read about can not even maintain 50% of design output?
I love the way leftists just assume that adding to other people’s costs can easily be borne by them.
isthatright: In the green religion, repeating something often enough makes it come true.
I live off grid on solar. Works well because my electrical usage is less than 100kwh per month and a third of that is used by the system. Most Americans use around 900 kwh a month.
profitup10: In 2015, all wind energy in California only produced 12 billion kWhs. The two Diablo Canyon nuclear reactors produce 17 billion kWhs every year according to Jim Conca.
There are a number of reasons why I left CA in 1999, and this is definitely one of them. The EcoNuts will win a hollow victory here and cause a lot of pain and suffering in the process.
Congrats on your “Escape From Alcatraz,” as it were. ;-D
As for the People’s Republic of Kalifornia, it should be unplugged from the grid at its borders, and let’s see how they like their new energy generation mix THEN. Let them actually reap what they’ve sown, so that it might actually sink in.
Again, if CO2 increase will cause enough global warming to cause flooding of coastal cities, extinction of vast species of plant/animal life, etc. Why has the USA shut down five nuclear power plants in the last five years an is planning on shutting down as many as twenty more (that I know of) over the next ten years? These actions completely negate Obama’s CCP and actually increase the CO2 emissions by the end of the CCP end date.
These actions tell me that CO2 AGW is a scam. If your house is on fire why do you throw gasoline on it?
Here is an alternative if we think outside the e=green box.
A BOLD NEW ENERGY POLICY TO SAVE THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE!!!
We put millions of skilled workers on manufacturing jobs building 500 to 1,000 Nuclear power plant of a low cost standard design. This will provide all the energy to accomplish a full restoration of our industrial base. How will this happen you ask?
First we “MINE” the oceans for gold, silver, copper, uranium, methane, manganese and other valuable minerals and metals. It has been estimated that it will be profitable to mine gold from the seas at around $ 3,000 per ounce. Second we use cheap nuclear power to extract these metals which could make a profit to pay off the national debt. Third we use the byproduct “WATER” to farm the huge vacant dry south west feeding the entire planet with low cost food.
Finally we use the cheap nuclear power to build factories to manufacture everything the entire planet needs and we return to zero unemployment and can pay good wages because we have free energy that makes a profit in it’s creation.The money generated can payoff all debts, build nuclear reprocessing plants, research and develop a system to render nuclear waste harmless.
Just think, full employment, no energy crisis ever, gold to make money valuable, make the dollar the strongest currency on earth, end inflation, end government debt. Just imagine “AMERICA REBORN AND THE DREAM FULFILLED!!!
Well said. But you must understand the modern Eco-Naz!s are against ALL useful power plants, not just those that produce CO2. This exposes the anti-human underpinnings of the whole rotten-to-the-core (no pun intended) “cause” – the destruction of western industrialized economies and mass starvation that will follow being their actual goal, not “saving the planet” – that’s just a useful sound bite.
No worries … A 5 kW diesel genset per household would mitigate the lunacy.
They are pretty dirty. I don’t believe you can get a permit to put one in around Los Angeles. Also they burn around half a gallon per hour and the built-in tanks aren’t that big so you start to spend your life shuttling fuel to it.
Natural Gas gensets are ok and you can get permits for those.
Solar with some batteries and a genset for when you need more works well.
The dirtiness sits with the government. There is no law forbidding portable gen-sets, no matter what they run on. I have one with my RV, totally legal.
Mixed emotions. Diabolo Canyon is two gen 2 Westinghouse PWR. The original license for 40 years was because that was thought to be practical safe plant life. (Neutron embrittlement, corrosion,…). Fukushima Daichi was a gen 1 40 year license extended for 10 years that did not end well. The plant economics paid for itself over those 40 years.
IMO, PGE simoly decided the legal costs of a 15 year extension, plus the increased maintenance, wasn’t worth the life extension. All the rest is political noise.
How PGE will replace this baseload remains to be seen. My guess is CCGT, after California experiences major blackouts due to its warmunist silliness. Essay California Dreaming has some further observations.
You’re probably right with your analysis ristvan but in any case the owners probably figure it’s not worth fighting over now. Better to wait for 2024-2025 and see what the politics of energy is like until then and make their investment decisions accordingly. What they will know for sure is if power shortages and blackouts become rampant any time before then, the politicians will be falling all over themselves to rubber stamp and subsidise anything they need in order to continue producing base-load power. When the punters are freezing in the dark you’re in a much better negotiating position, particularly if you know your energy market inside out and the FOEs are off with the fairies.
Well, the PG&E people may be crazy like a fox.
After a Trump election and 3 years of La Nina (not to mention a bunch of rolling blackouts) the political climate may look different.
A “clean energy” subsidy for nuclear or higher natural gas prices may pull the planned closure off the table.
Right now Diablo Canyon probably isn’t profitable enough for all the hassle of keeping it open.
Apparently these tree hugging dolts will never understand the simple fact that wind and solar will never supply enough power. I call that insanity. they would have the world revert to the Middle Ages or further back, to save their god Earth.
More importantly they will never supply it when you need it.
Haven’t you read recent Sierra Club manifestos? Too many humans is the now root problem. If reverting to a pre-industrial existence kills off a few billion people, well, at least Mother Earth will be healthier. And isn’t that what *really* matters?
In California, it is pretty easy, and not even terribly expensive, to switch over to LED lighting, put Solar panels on the roof, one of Telsa’s battery banks in the garage, and keep the lights on. However you’ll have a little more trouble running the air conditioning and charging your electric vehicle, although that’s possible too.
Industry is who will really be impacted as they generally don’t have the roof area to generate what they need. What you’ll see is the rest of manufacturing (that is, what is left….) relocate to where cheap wind power is available (the wind belt) and put in gas peaking plants for when the wind isn’t blowing.
The power companies seem to be divesting themselves of the power plants and keeping the distribution facilities. I think they’ve known for a long time that trying to build new plants gets them too much bad press so they are getting out of the business. But so is everyone else! It’s going to get interesting!
Better install enough solar to at least run your LED lights, your refrigerator, and your furnace!
Greg, you live in a fantasy world. Do you realize how much a Tesla battery costs? And you are still dreaming of a mass electric vehicles usage in an energy deprived environment? I suggest you crunch some numbers, as to what electricity generating capacity is required to replace all gasoline burnt. Unless you want people to give up personal cars.
Furthermore, excuse my curiosity, but how many electric cars are you driving, and how many Tesla batteries (banks??) and solar panels do you have in your home?
That’s the sound of crickets, Dirk.
However you’ll have a little more trouble running the air conditioning
=========
ya think! send us a report after you’ve switched your AC over to solar panels.
The devil is always in the details. Solar could make sense under the right circumstances. 🙂
Like most environmentalists, Greg doesn’t believe that YOU need AC. Him on the other hand. He’s special.
Greg June 21, 2016 at 4:56 pm
You never ever want a power outage in a modern machine shop. Worst brown outs. Or sudden stops and starts. First the machining centers are CNC controlled and tend to be large and expensive. You interrupt the CNC program and you don’t what the machine will try to do once the power snaps back on. Just a second of power outage and whole lines of code go bye bye. ANY time threr is a power interruption I and other CNC machinist would run from machine to machine and “hit” E-Stops and flip breakers. Then we would assess the damage. Oh and regular old fashion machines, read what happens to multi-phase electrical motors.
I’m intrigued by what will happen to electrical charging units for cars in the event of multiple power surges and interruptions .
michael
As a technician familiar with power supplies of multiple varieties, I can tell you what happens.
They die.
If you are lucky, they don’t kill the machinery they are attached to, but you are still going to have significant downtime while things are repaired.
UK car plants – 8 of them at least -have solar roofs, getting 10% of their power from them.
I’d have thought in California you’d get a lot more than that from a factory roof.
(And your factories are bigger than ours, right? As everything in Claifornia is bigger!)
Wrong state Griff. That would be everything is bigger in Texas and everything is buggered in California.
Griff June 22, 2016 at 2:00 am
UK car plants – 8 of them at least -have solar roofs, getting 10% of their power from them.
But Griff the UK builds only one or two cars a year…..
And just what did happen to their steel industry?
michaeel
need more coffee, bad morning when I typo my own name. I know its this new keyboard..
michael
Lighting is less than 5% of total power consumption and most lights presently are not incandescent.
If every bulb in the country switched to LED, the total drop in power consumption would be at most 2 to 3%.
As to batteries, which bedroom should people have to give up in order to house all them.
Should we eliminate rules on child labor? Because everyone down to the toddlers are going to have to start working to pay for your schemes.
Well, at least CA Greens can sleep better at night knowing there’ll be one less Godzilla out there.
Of course, they might sleep better because their alarm clock might not have any power. When they wake up?
They have no use for alarm clocks.
But their parents do, and somebody will have to get up and go to work or a tleast make subsidy applications to pay for all that retro-fitting.
It’s about time the nuclear plants were shut down.
Notice how robust the wind and solar power are yesterday and again today in California during the first mild heat wave of the summer. 10,000 MW produced hour after hour.
All that is required is a bit more grid-scale storage, and more solar. Wind resources are nearly tapped out in California, so renewable growth is in solar.
Biogas is also set to increase with Dr Park’s patented gas-from-human-waste process.
It’s a great day in California.
I think you’ve had a little too much Fairy Dust today…
It’s not surprising to read the negative commentary here at WUWT. So much belief in a disproven technology, the most expensive way to boil water (and unsafe too): nuclear fission. So little belief by the WUWT commenters (most, but not all) in proven, low-cost wind technology, solar PV, and the belittling of grid-scale storage is a wonder to behold. The simple fact is that the cost to build nuclear is increasing, while the cost to build solar and wind is decreasing rapidly.
Did anyone notice that the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant has several issues against it:
o Once-through cooling via the Pacific Ocean, in violation of state law. To correct that and use a cooling tower or otherwise come into compliance will cost PG&E many billions. see http://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/environment/article39459930.html
o Many more earthquake fault lines are very near the plant, far more than were known about when the plant was approved and built.
o Just how much money does the Diablo Canyon plant lose each day, pumping out 2200 MWe into the grid when the wholesale price is 2 cents per kWh? Other nuclear plants across the country are shutting down when wholesale prices are 3 cents . The assertion is that the nuclear plants have a 5 cent per kWh operating cost.
o It’s very easy to violate a law that defies common sense.
o Earthquakes in that part of CA are of no threat to nuclear plants.
o Just how much does a solar kWh cost, for a comparison?
So little belief by the WUWT commenters (most, but not all) in proven, low-cost wind technology, solar PV, and the belittling of grid-scale storage
I have frequently gone against the grain in this forum, so you can’t accuse me of group think. But the fact is that every time you have promoted any of these solutions, you’ve gotten crushed. That said, Canada thanks you for your efforts.
Just how much money does the Diablo Canyon plant lose each day, pumping out 2200 MWe into the grid when the wholesale price is 2 cents per kWh?
So by that metric would you agree that the new solar site in Nevada should be shut down 6+ times over?
The whole project cost slightly under $1 billion and SolarReserve holds a 25-year contract to supply power to NV Energy for $135 per megawatt hour
Oh piss off Roger.
Nobody with any sense reads your vile, ignorant, anti-nuclear propaganda any more.
Geoff.
davidmhoffer,
Who in Canada thanks you for Roger’s efforts?
Many in Ontario have already been driven into energy poverty because of Ontario’s energy policy.
Wind and solar are still being added in Ontario although there is no increased demand for electricity.
Ontario often gives away electricity free or sells it at below cost to produce to Michigan, New York and Quebec which Ontario residents have to pay for.
Ontario residents have to pay for the production of electricity that the Ontario government gives away to others.
Roger,
I highly doubt that you have solar panels on your roof (as I do). If you did, you would understand that they produce the most power when you need it the least.
Roger Sowell June 21, 2016 at 5:59 pm
and
Roger Sowell June 21, 2016 at 4:59 pm
It’s a great day in California.
You forgot something…. the Diabolo Canyon power plant is “still” up and running at 100% cap. Also hydro out of Hoover Dam. And the gas powered plants are still chugging away. All still there back stopping undependable unreliable uneconomical “renewables” . Yup Diabolo Canyon power plant was still safely and economically providing electrical power for Californians.
Thus you are correct, It’s a great day in California.
For now.
michael
http://atomicinsights.com/roger-sowell-professional-advocate-for-natural-gas-companies-wrote-a-post-labeling-me-a-nuclear-nut/
Umm. You don’t seem to be a disinterested party.
Another activist who actually believes that repeating lies will force reality to change.
“Another activist who actually believes that repeating lies will force reality to change.”
Well, you missed the point. He has been an advocate for more natural gas since at least 2009.
From his site he doesn’t seem to be an activist, he’s an advocate.
Advocating for higher natural gas use is sort of silly.
Long term natural gas is going to be much more expensive than nuclear, Closure of nuclear plants will simply make natural gas more expensive now.
We only have an estimated 84 years of gas at 2013 consumption. As we draw down the gas the price rises as more marginal reserves are exploited, further the EROI (energy return on investment) goes down.
Burning more gas will speed us to the point where using natural gas is less beneficial than using other sources. But it does make being in the gas industry more profitable.
If we closed all the nuclear plants the price of electricity would go up because natural gas power electricity would be higher cost at the higher volume of consumption. The only people who would benefit are the natural gas producers.
Closing Diablo Canyon looks dumb at this point if it takes environment activism and not a corporate decision to close it. The uptick in natural gas stocks at the announcement indicates they will be profiting at the expense of the California consumer.
84 years – where did that come from – how about the frozen methane at the bottom of oceans? We have methane being formed in every trash pile and dump.
“84 years – where did that come from – how about the frozen methane at the bottom of oceans? We have methane being formed in every trash pile and dump.”.
I looked up technically extractable reserves. It was at the top of the list.
You may substitute your favorite estimate here. By the time we use half of the 84 years (42) it will be too expensive to be useful.
The more gas we use for power the more we raise home heating costs (lots of people use natural gas).
Sure there is methane everywhere. But to be consumed affordably it has to be located at the end of a pipe.
By the time you get to arctic gas, collect arctic gas, liquify arctic gas, ship arctic gas, unship arctic gas, and pipe arctic gas, the EROI is horribly low and the gas is expensive. It will make renewables look cheap.
Gas from trash will be cheaper.
I should also point out that California lost 2200 MW of nuclear power 4 years ago, when SONGS shut down suddenly due to new, but faulty, steam generators that leaked radioactive steam into the California skies. (San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station = SONGS). The NRC took a dim view of the shenanigans that Southern California Edison performed and, rather than identify then correct the bad steam generators, SCE shut the entire plant down forever.
Somehow, and this is a complete mystery to all the naysayers here at WUWT, the state has muddled through without those oh-so-necessary nuclear plants. Baseload and all that, see above for the blah-blah-blah. Meanwhile, more solar, more wind, and more minor renewables have been installed along with efficient and clean-burning natural gas.
Somehow, the lights have stayed on.
I checked the ISO website a bit ago, to search out all the grid emergencies, the Flex Alerts issued, since 2012 when SONGS stopped operating. The count of Flex Alerts is 8 in the four years post-SONGS, compared to 42 in the prior 8 years while it was running (that’s 2 per year after, and 5-plus-a-bit per year before). Sure seems like a nuclear plant helps to stabilize the grid, what-say? see http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Alert_WarningandEmergenciesRecord.pdf
Seriously, although I enjoy poking fun at the WUWT commenters who are so into nuclear cheerleading, one can rest assured that the state’s regulatory agencies have several mandates that they must follow at all times with regard to the electrical grid and the power that flows through it. First, and foremost, electricity in this state must be safe. A close second to safety is the power must be reliable.
Third in the priority system is the power must be priced reasonably, considering a complicated analysis of first cost, operating costs, fuel or other energy input costs, expected lifetime, and incidental costs imposed on the system. This means that Yes, the regulators know quite well that the sun shines during they day. They also know the wind can stop, or begin flowing, at any time. They also know that nuclear plants require full backup for the days or weeks or months that they go offline.
Fourth in the priority system is the power generation and transmission must comply with the state policies and environmental laws, which in this case number in the hundreds.
California is doing quite well without the SONGS reactors. It will do even better without the Diablo Canyon reactors.
OMG, the world almost, kinda, could have, maybe, sorta ended because of SONGS !! …or not…“There was a small radiation leak as the result of a water leak in Unit 3 at the plant, but there was no threat to the public or to our workers,” said Jennifer Manfre, a spokeswoman for Edison. “…..Dang Fairy Dust must get in your eyes! LOL
Solar and Wind don’t comply with environmental laws. How many of these projects were subject to Environmental Impact studies before construction?
The Delta Smelt kills Agri-Business but Wind and Solar somehow get an Eco pass for some twisted reason.
The lights in California stay on because of imports — including the Hoover Dam.
Roger, clearly you are a knowledgeable person. Could you please share knowledge regarding new, but faulty, steam generators that leaked radioactive steam into the California skies – how much radioactivity was released? Can you compare a 40-year old Diablo Canyon nuclear plant to brand new Ivanpah, CA and Crescent Dunes, NV solar plants?
It’s pronounced NUKULAR. At least CA will be safe from the giant mutant ants in your head.
California has all of the energy it needs. Just a few more windmills and mirrors and it’ll be perfect.
http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electricity/total_system_power.html
293,000 is the same as 198,000, right? See, shutting down the 2GW of capacity was totally invisible. Totally.
Yes, comrade, the 5 year plan on energy production in California is ahead of schedule! Nothing can stop us now.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemente/2014/10/27/hey-epa-the-california-model-doesnt-work-and-well-need-more-electricity/#c682cfa10ec9
By that unicorn optimism, Cali will be heaven on earth once all utilities are done. Wow.
Roger you don’t like birds, right? How about minced eagle on your plate? How come so called green power gets a free ride by the save the earthers?
Keep it up Roger. The emotion and vitriol in response to someone who conducts themselves as reasonably as you do speaks volumes as to the real source of their objections to you.
Philip Schaeffer June 21, 2016 at 9:44 pm
Hi Philip!
Hmmm, “The emotion and vitriol in response ” are you sure that is what is happening inside the heads of those who respond to Roger Sowell ? Are you mistaking mockery and laughter for this “vitriol”? Or is it perhaps frustration and exasperation? Myself its just disappointment and pity. None of us can know from the mere written word what emotions are peculating inside another’s brain. We don’t get to see the hand gestures and facial expressions of those writing, so at times we “fill” in what those missing forms of communication are from are own stereotypes and biases.
People here are really quite gentle
michael
Roger forgot to mention:
According to figures from the California Air Resources Board, total greenhouse gas emissions from power plants in California increased by 35% in 2012, partly due to the early closure of San Onofre.
Whoops!
Re: Philip Schaeffer June 21, 2016 at 9:44 pm
1. Mr. Sowell uses (and has used for years, here) half-truths and falsehood to support his views, therefore, he is not “reasonable.” He is cool and collected (so far, heh), but, he is irrational.
2. The reason for many of us being vehement toward Mr. Sowell (and his ilk) is:
1) inexpensive power is essential to a thriving economy;
2) Mr. Sowell’s fantasy-based ideas will ruin our economy;
3) we care about the economic well-being of people;
4) national security depends on a thriving economy (low GDP = weak military);
5) we care about our nation.
In short, we are writing so fervently here because we love people and we love our country.
I hope, Mr. Schaeffer, that your inability to understand our indignation is only because you are ignorant about the facts about nuclear power and not that you do not care…
The battle for energy sanity is, ultimately about FREEDOM.
Go, WUWT and Anthony and the mods!! Truth will win!
(and, well said above, Mike (not a) Morlock)
Hum, guess you did not study the new job formation numbers?
Well, I’m still waiting for the great calamity predicted by many here where the end of western civilization is finally caused by these stupid power systems engineers and their renewable bullsh…. Oh, whats that? The grid is working fine? Even in places where they generate 30% of their electricity from renewables?
Normally I would engage the foolishness of RS. But this is California doing this and the Sierra Nevada club’s stated (in email) intention is to drive up power costs with renewable energy and make it so expensive it drives out the riff-raff.
This should help them achieve that.
California has a ways to go to have the most expensive power in the CONUS. They are about 3 cents per KW-H short of perfection. This should put them over the top and increase their carbon footprint. A win-win.
It is claimed that going green is cheap and reliable. It is also said it is expensive and unreliable. We need a guinea pig to jump in and find out. It is nice that California is an eager volunteer.
Roger Sowell
Define: “a bit more”
Give a meaningful figure for: “more” {solar}
lol
*******************************************
1. That every single one of the ignorant assertions about nuclear power Mr. Sowell has ever made at WUWT has been roundly refuted is well known to everyone here. To everyone with the exception of Mr. Sowell. Keep it up, Mr. Sowell — you make a FINE case for nuclear power with every post you make!
2. Also, every empty argument that Mr. Sowell has ever asserted in favor of solar power has been soundly and repeatedly refuted. See below video.
Ozzie Zehner, “Green Illusions”
(youtube)
(from above video)
Solar Cell Tech Is Not Currently Able to Meet Economy’s Energy Demand
[6:55] As of 2012, less than ONE TENTH OF 1%, i.e., less than .001% (< .1 Quads), of total energy (114 Quads. for N. America) is supplied by solar.
[7:11] Graphic of N. American total energy v. solar (tiny dot vs. BIG BUCKET).
In other words, given the current (and for the foreseeable future) technology
and given
the production and maintenance cost of deploying THAT much current solar technology,
Mr. Sowell’s assertions are: NONSENSE.
Facts did not win the day, here: smug, blind, emotion did.
******************************
Oh, and wind? …. Did you say WIND? (Laughter) Check out the percentage of total power supplied to the grid by wind annually in CA. Not much.
Further, given the NEGATIVE EROEI of wind…. What? …. Oh! That’s right. I forgot. We are playing “pretend.” We aren’t going to deal with real world facts and figures. Got it! (wink, wink)
.
.
.
Pathetic.
Since there is next to no grid storage at present, “a bit more” sounds a bite optimistic.
Let us know if Solar is still putting out 7600 MW on Dec 21st.
Roger, this might be of interest to you, maybe not.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-aliso-canyon-blackouts-20160405-story.html
Let’s talk again about how stable California’s electricity supply is after the end of summer.
Well I would personally like to thank Roger Sowell and all his brothers in arms for their efforts to arrive at this brilliant decision. For all of you who think I’ve lost my mind…
BC’s “Site C” is scheduled to come on line in…. wait for it…. 2024. Coincidence? Probably. 1.1 GW, and that’s just the hydro project. There’s a much larger project that will see a sea port for LNG soon.
So as a Canadian, I really do want to thank the anti-nuke lobbyists for creating a market for us. Please do not worry about rolling black outs due to the nuclear plant being shut down. We’ve got your back. And you have money that is the color green which we will happily accept in trade.
Once again, thank you Roger.
Until BC decides to outlaw LNG exports !! They are not considered “Green” ya know !
This closure retires 2160 MW of reliable power. One of the “advantages” of closing Diabalo Canyon, according to Ralph Cavanagh of the Natural Resources Defence Council (NRDC) is:
Ponder than for just a moment. The problem with nuclear is it does not easily ramp down to allow you to purchase more expensive, less reliable “renewable” power. Normally I’d say public school education without a doubt, and second rate at that. However it’s entirely possible Ralph is the product of an elite private education system. The wonderful thing about equality in modern American is it gives everyone an equal chance to be a moron.
Then consider this from the LA Times:
I have no words, except keep your checkbooks handy — we will be bailing out California when it all collapses into ruin.
If California goes dark, I vote that we institute a reverse Civil War — *force* them to secede from the Union.
..President Trump will definitely like that idea !! ;o)
No civil war needed, just cut the power links into the state, and stop anyone trying to leave at the borders.
Standard procedure to stop the infection spreading.
Be sure to build a big fence around the entire state first.
‘The wonderful thing about equality in modern American is it gives everyone an equal chance to be a moron.’ What a wonderful line Alan. Like it.
YOU JUST CAN’T FIX STUPID, CAN YOU???
Cars, trains buses, households, businesses, manufacturing plants, offices…around the world depend on fossil fuels. Aeroplanes use the highest grade fossil fuel we can produced, so it’s totally hypocritical all these Greens flying back and forth in aeroplanes.
The world is totally dependent upon fossil fuels, It a lie to suggest otherwise. Here’s the facts on Global Energy Market share:
Coal 30%, Oil 30% Gas 30% Renewables 6%
It’s predicted to stay that way to 2030.
Developing Nations are conquering global poverty using Coal, which is fuelling their own Industrial Revolution that made White Western Nations so powerful.
By 2030 these Developing Nations will consume 64% of the Global Energy produced. And as pointed out above, their appetite is for cheap affordable coal.
Non-fossil fuel alternatives exist for all that you mention, except planes (though NASA is working on that)
Here’s a German state going to hydrogen powered rail (hydrogen produced from wind power)
http://www.railway-technology.com/features/featuregerman-state-thrusts-hydrogen-powered-hydrail-into-the-spotlight-4928956/
Griff do you believe every political announcement made. Seriously it’s a discussion piece for an election platform, there are no monies even committed or changing hands. Our little german politician in the article is making a bold stupid statement that he will never be around for when it all comes to nothing .. what he gets is the green vote in the meantime.
Seriously Griff when you are going to google articles at least read them and check has anyone actually put any money down and contracts signed or is this just another green PR stunt.
If it wasn’t so far off I would have a small wager with you that in 2025 there are no hydrogen trains in Schleswig-Holstein.
Griff, from your link:
To power the locomotives, the hydrail equipment relies on the creation of fuel cells, a result of combining hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is supplied by an on-board fuel cell power module which produces electricity, either from batteries or fed through overhead wires, or catenaries. Since combustion is replaced by an electrochemical process, no harmful emissions are produced.
Gibberish. Obviously the opportunity to be a moron isn’t limited to the US.
How much electricity does it take to break the H/O bond? Now where do we get that power from?
Billy you missed what the article was really about which was the last bit
“one of the key goals of the Eleventh International Hydrail Conference taking place in Birmingham this July.”
It was a sales pitch for why the German politician needed to go on a taxpayer paid junket and they don’t even have a plan.
This was our front page today
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/perths-max-light-rail-plan-set-to-be-dumped-for-12-billion-bus-service/news-story/853cd6f590dd099801a0bb4f17f99829
Out new light rail electric train system for the city promised in the 2013 election went by the wayside because it’s too expensive. Politicians say anything in an election to get elected until you see a contract don’t believe it.
The citizens of the world need to reeducate the Political class . . they are broke and have no funds for expensive power. Technology has not yet advanced to the point of any green sources to provide 24/7/365 power.
So, all green sources must have 100% fossil or nuclear back up that can come on board in seconds. When the poor and old cannot pay for heat and A/C start dying what will the greens say? Oh, yes that is the term sustainable populations comes from – hint they want to reduce human population by 2/3?
Want to pick the two out of three that must go?
Remember that included in the 6% renewable sourced energy is hydro. Building a new Hoover, Roosevelt or other large new dam would be more difficult then building new nuclear plants. I suppose that you could burn the accumulated environmental impact studies for energy could qualify as biomass energy.
One problem with fuel cell vehicles is that each form conversion of energy, i.e. electricity to hydrogen to electricity will normally result in a loss at each stage. The main reason Germany and Denmark have had success with wind and solar is the ability to exchange power with Sweden. Sweden has abundant hydro power and can ramp its’ generating production up and down rapidly to absorb fluctuations in wind and solar production on the continent. Essentially, Germany’s storage system has been Swedish lakes. The economics have generally been that Sweden sells power when needed and receives power for free since the northern European countries need to shed what their grid can’t use.
Electricity is used to break water into hydrogen and oxygen, then the hydrogen and oxygen are fed to a fuel cell which then fed to a fuel cell which combines hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity.
Wow there Nelly, the guys at Hydrail have just re-invented perpetual motion.
Due to energy losses in both splitting water and in the fuel cell, the amount of electricity coming out of the fuel cell will be around 20% less than the electricity going in.
You would be much more green if you merely took the electricity from the batteries or overhead wires and fed them directly to the motor.
Sheesh, Griff, aren’t you ever embarrassed by the stuff you try to pass?
All -the German state in question has a very high level of wind power, which currently is sometimes constrained when (e.g overnight) supply exceeds local demand.
It makes sense for them to use the power to convert to hydrogen.
Germany believes (the vast majority of its citizens back this view) that they should use renewable electricity and not fossil fuel, to fight climate change. In that context their decision makes sense.
That viewpoint is shared by and driving technology and power systems across the world -there’s a technical revolution out there.
I’m embarrassed that some here have not noticed what is happening on a large scale – like it or not, its there, people are pushing for more of it, it works… having a particular view on climate can’t stop what is going on. Reflect!
California announced some years ago that they were going to stop buying electricity from coal-fired plants. Utah was one of their suppliers. California got the electricity, and Utah got to keep the pollution. You would think that was a good deal for California. And maybe it was, because they are still buying it and plan to continue to buy it until 2025:
“In order to keep selling electricity to California, Utah’s Intermountain Power Project is expected to convert to natural gas by 2025. The Utah power company sells about 90 percent of its power to six California municipalities. About 45 percent of the company’s capacity is owned by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, who has indicated that it will curtail coal use by 2025.”
http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/californias-hidden-coal-use/
..But what happens when Utah decides to switch to wind and solar ?? They’ll need all their natural gas to back up their own inefficient power ! No more power sold to CaliPornia ! Oh oh……
Morons.
Ban Nuclear Power Plants. Let the Bastards Freeze/Roast in the Dark.
Peak demand, when outages happen, is summer daytime A/C use. There is excess at night. So no freezing or roasting in the dark… just sweating and dehydrating to death in the summer relentless sun…
This will be fixed when the Hollywood Glitterati discover what sweat is and that sweaty hair doesn’t look good…
which is exactly when solar panels work best… so stick them on all the roofs.
I note NRG has done a deal with Kaiser healthcare to put panels over all the company’s parking lots in California… that’s another place for putting panels -bonus shade!
Peak solar is around noon. Peak demand is about 5pm.
Is there anything you know that is actually correct?
Yep we have same problem in West Australia in theory we can power the whole southern state with PV power but it’s at wrong time our peak is 5pm-9pm. Year average for solar is 14% of it’s notional 160% it can provide. We burn coal and gas for baseload.
Well solar works fine at 5pm – and peaks in A/C using areas vary – often coincide with peak non-A/C use which is usually mid day
Still makes sense to install solar in any sunny A/C using area
Calfornia should be bared from inporting electricity and fopssile fuels from othe parts of the country. If they will not bear the risks and expenses associated with the production of theose goods, thay should not be allowed to put their costs on other people.
We have room for you in Florida Anthony. Trade Earthquakes for Hurricanes?
Regards, Ed
…I loved living in Florida …If Trump gets elected I may return to live there again !!
Signing “agreements” with activist organizations? In return for what – a promise not to protest, harass and disrupt normal people going about their lives and jobs?
Yes. The NRDC and the Sierra Club will agree not to sue over State Lands permitting in exchange for PG&E’s withdrawal of the current 20 year license extension from the NRC.
Its a protection racket, pure and simple. RICO will not be mentioned however.
By 2025, CAGW should already be an officially disconfirmed hypothesis because there will have been 30 years without a global warming trend and the disparity between CAGW projections vs. reality should exceed 3+ standard deviations.
The 30-yr PDO cool cycle will be at its coolest point, the AMO 30-yr cool cycle will be in its 5th year, Arctic ice extents should already be showing massive increases, we’ll be suffering through the weakest solar cycle since 1790, China’s first LFTR will already be online with the West frantically trying to play catch up, and the US will likely be in a severe depression from the
a debt/currency crisis caused by a $30+ trillion national debt.
A massive 3rd-wave of Western industrial production will have moved to China to take advantage China’s unlimited power capacity @ $0.03/kWh, compared to the West’s energy costs of $0.30/kWh from all the wind and solar boondoggles on which the West wasted $100’s of billions.
Isn’t Leftistist economic suicide grand…..
Science is scary and threatening to “green” schemes.
Nuclear power is for sissies. A brave new world needs brave new people. Maybe California will be the first state to have highway lanes for skateboards and pogo sticks.
Ha ha! Fooled you! Obviously I was really talking about wheelchair and bicycle lanes. They should also make special parking spots for walkers and Penny-Farthings.
Obviously heavy deliveries would be made by pack mules and Borax donkey teams pulling a water bowser at the back. The Teamsters will rule once again!
Personally I’m glad this is happening in California. I feel sorry for people who are stuck with this kind of nonsense who know it won’t work, but it’s clear that the Greens won’t understand the inevitable outcome of their madness until they are sitting in the dark. I just wish it wasn’t going to be another 10 years before the plant is shut down.
If I was the plant manager I would shut it down now – the law of unintended consequences will take over.
Thank God I left California. In California, people like Roger Sowell are the damn moderates.
I wonder what will happen to all the spent nuclear fuel. Because of NIMBY attitudes, all U.S. nuclear power plants store their spent fuel rods on site.
It will be used in advanced reactors as fuel. CANDU can use it. Oh Canada, ….
Just make sure you don’t mention the word “Sons” anywhere !
https://ipolitics.ca/2016/06/15/bill-to-change-o-canada-lyrics-passes-final-house-vote/
Not any time soon. Dry casks from here to eternity.
‘“Energy efficiency and clean renewable energy from the wind and sun can replace aging nuclear plants — and this proves it.’
“Energy efficiency” is cultural Marxism for brownouts and blackouts.
I presume the 5 million illegals in CA have the tax payers pay their electric bills, so no harm done/
Friends of the Earth = Enemy of the People
A more appropriate acronym for an organization (FOE) has never been and will never be created.
UN doesn’t come close to measuring up to the corruption and evil of the organization itself. It’s just… UN. FOE on the other hand…
+10
“Fighting climate change requires more nuclear power, not less.” so says Bloomberg.
I would be interested to know how exactly nuclear power will fight climate change. And how the effect on climate can be measured and proven.
If only controlling climate were that simple!
Simple. Climate change is not defined.
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.” Thomas Sowell
I live about 15 miles from Diablo Canyon; and I see two as yet unmentioned potential problems that I and my neighbors might face. Neither or both may be real, but as I understand it they are. First, the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant pays beaucoup money in property taxes–much of which goes to funding schools. If the plant is closed, will the taxes the plant pays also go away; and if so, who is going to make up the shortfall? Second, I believe Diablo Canyon has a significant water desalination capability. During the recent drought, many local communities wanted to get their hands on the fresh water. In the next drought, where will we get an equivalent amount of fresh water?
Good points and a grim outlook for property values (no schools = no people… unless…. you can convince a lot of rich, old, hippies, like Sowell, to move in…. OH, BOY, WOULDN’T THAT BE NEAT? (barf)) in your neck of the woods if we can’t get this ludicrous action reversed. And we just may…
You might want to think of selling — soon …. yet, how sad (and it may not be necessary…).
Hang in there, Reed. If you don’t need the resale value of your home — just enjoy where you live and let the chips fall where they may.
Look on the bright side, at least your heirs won’t need that “step-up in basis” to avoid capital gains… (mirthless laugh).
Janice, from a weather point of view, where I live, Los Osos, is heaven on Earth. Being close to the ocean, we get maybe 10 days a year of temperatures above 80 F. This place would be heaven on Earth if I could only disassociate myself from the People’s Republic of California and its extreme left politics. Alas, I can’t. I have as much chance of changing California’s left-think attitude as global warming alarmists have of controlling weather/climate by regulating atmospheric CO2–none-to-none.
Well, Reed, then, just enjoy. Life’s too short to sweat it. Accept that the sewer of the world is backing up in California, put up a big bulkhead in your brain to keep it from getting inside your head, put on your windbreaker, and go for a walk on the beach.
And pray.
Because, when it gets this bad (and it may even get worse, for awhile), God is the only one who can rescue the rational from the twisted.
Climategate did not “just happen,” … it took a brave individual, but it also took an opportunity and the means and a mouthpiece called “WUWT” (this website was God from the get-go… Anthony Watts, who “just happened” to be a computer-saavy, world class professional broadcast media meteorologist, lost a school board election… and the rest is history), both, in my opinion, designed and executed by: God.
There are more climategates coming.
Truth will win.
It always does.
The National Resource Defense Council successfully sued our small water district over a capacity expansion project that included dredging out silt accumulation and increasing the height of the existing dam. The NRDC “wins” because they can tie you up in lawsuits for the next 50 years; a de facto win for them. The bottom line nothing gets done. Then the drought comes and the media plays dumb as to why our community ran out of water. Yes, I’m talking about California.
mairon62: That is sickening. So sorry to hear that. I hope you can move. Yet, that’s not likely a happy thought, either. Hang in there. Hey, I just said that! It appears to be the thing to say to anyone sane living in California! HANG IN THERE — things are going to get better! (for, surely, they cannot get any worse!) aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. When, oh, when are we going to be rid of the Envirostalinists???
Okay, okay, Sleepalot — I’m done talking to people… for awhile (heh).
The NRDC has a support of billionaires, they can win a big lawsuit. Why don’t you try a community action? Sue them individually in a small claims court.
Up here is British Columbia, Canada’s California, nutters, remember we have David Suzuki, oops getting off track. We have a Carbon tax well it failed and either needs to be cancelled or increased. See our Premier, Christy Clarke called a recent downpour and serious flooding in the Dawson Creek, Chetwynd area a result of “climate Change” and to expect more of the same. So like I said our carbon tax failed, cancel it or increase it because our tax will change the worlds climate.
Since Christy is a politician then her stated cause of the flooding being “climate change” must be true.
When we don’t have enough water and power to make enough food… this, also, will be “bad luck.”
Not only can people be this dumb, it is normal. And they will roundly denounce others as foolish, even as they rush over that cliff. Again.
Well, a new US reactor just switched on!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/06/17/the-u-s-is-powering-up-its-first-new-nuclear-reactor-in-decades/
but it isn’t going too well…
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/business/aroundregion/story/2016/jun/21/watts-bar-nuclear-plant-shuts-down-second-time-three-weeks/372227/
I’m astonished the USA remembered how to make a nuclear plant. Where did they find the expertise? In a retirement home? Or from China / Russia / India / Pakistan / North Korea / Iran?
That’s pretty normal in the commissioning period of a power plant – there are a LOT of systems that need to be run up, checked, adjusted etc and sometimes you need to shutdown the plant to perform these operations.
http://www.babcock.com/library/Documents/e1013201.pdf
So why are people complaining about Ivanpah and other solar CSP plant then – its just normal during commissioning, right?
Commissioning does not normally take 2 years.
Griff obviously failed to read the first article to which he provided a link. The commissioning will take until ‘the end of the summer’.
Griff it is commissioning and was still outputting 390MW. Ivanpah is fully operational as of February 13, 2014 it’s all in the wikipedia entry and the tables at the bottom . Quote: “In its second year of operation, Ivanpah’s production of 652,375 MW·h was 69.4 percent of its 940,000 MW·h design”.
When the nuclear reactor is in it’s second year of OPERATION and is at 69.4% feel free to criticize it and we will all agree.
Reports outside the US suggest your new nuke may be in trouble – I would not be surprised if 2 years down the line it is still not up to speed.
You might ask yourselves about the information you are seeing in the US press on this…
Germans using it as example to justify their no nuke policy…
Source or it didn’t happen Griff … I don’t do rumour.
You may care to know Sweden has back out replacing there Nuclear power stations with Wind, last week in a deal between the Social Democrats and Greens. They didn’t like the idea of the country going back to the dark ages as the Nuclear power stations were about to start closing because of the “special tax” imposed on them.
Changing to wind just didn’t stack up or make any economic sense
http://phys.org/news/2016-06-nuclear-power-doesnt-sweden.html
The back story to re-investing in the nuclear reactor program
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/17/11950440/sweden-nuclear-power
Are you going to be okay Griff?
California’s greeanderthals are not fit for nuclear technology. The morons don’t deserve the benefits of the scientific enlightenment that they are so determined to crush. They want what their narcotic-addled brains can understand – the stone age – and that’s what they will get.
No one killed the power station. They have a life of about 60 years. PGE just conned the idiots to go away until it would normally be shut down, allows the idiots to save face, claim they did something when they did nothing at all.
PG&E agreed to not keep the plant open when it might have. That is not a con. It is a response to legal blackmail.
The “watermelons” own California. I feel sad for my friends that live there.
“Let’s all sit in the dark and chant kumabahya while we wait for wind and solar to come online again.” Californians will be paying a yuuuge premium for that privilege.
It’s clear the Greens’ plan for “fighting global warming” has only one, acceptable method: a return to 18th century technology and subsequent reduction of human population to well under a billion through famine and war.
Never forget: these are compassionate people.
And if you do forget, they will yell at you until you remember.
+1
Stop selling California any energy made elsewhere. Let them show us the way 100% on their own.
So sad.
“Energy efficiency and clean renewable energy from the wind and sun can replace aging nuclear plants”
Huh? This implies energy demand would decrease. The compelling issue facing the world is satisfying increasing energy demands not assuming a decrease in energy demands.
If they cut supply, people will use less. It’s called “efficiency.”
As a reminder to all Californians, Florida is full please go elsewhere.
The big energy efficiencies were squeezed out of the system decades ago.
The only way to reduce energy demand now days is to force citizens and businesses to leave the state.
California is now officially regressed to the early 20th century.
Instead of moving forward socially, educationally and technically into the 21st century, we are taking giant strides backwards.
This is a deep failure of our educational system and stems from the same ignorance that has led to the growing belief that the earth is flat; seriously, many well educated people (doctors, attornies, airline pilots!) believe that the earth is truly flat in the face of incontrovertible logic and evidence from many directions. In their minds (and in the mind of anyone who holds such aberrant beliefs), reality becomes what I believe it to be. The problem metastasizes into a full-blown cancer when those belief systems begin to affect legislation and dictate public policy, such as what has just happened with Diablo Canyon.
Green energy technology includes all non-carbon based sources, including nuclear. This reminds me of the 20 fiasco trying to open Long Island’s Shoreham Nuclear Power Station, something we’re still paying for (to the tune of $6 B – a 3 percent surcharge is attached to Long Island electric bills for 30 years to pay off the $6 billion) and something that never generated 1 watt of commercial power, thanks to New York’s current governor’s deceased father, the late Gov. Mario Cuomo (may he not rest in peace). The plant was approved in 1972 and construction began the following year and was completed in 1984. Although much of the hype was based on what happened at TMI and Chernobyl, there would never be the need for a full evacuation. Then Gov. Cuomo ordered state officials not to approve any utility-sponsored evacuation plan, effectively preventing the plant from operating at full capacity. This is what happens when science illiteracy becomes pandemic and impacts public policy – the mix can be disastrous! This situation hasn’t improved but, in point of fact, has gotten a lot worse.
Much can happen in the intervening 9 years; lets hope (and work towards) the day when cooler heads (and clear thinking) will prevail.
What do you expect when Middle Ages are being resurrected as New Age?
Obama and the leftist environmentalists support Nuclear Power in Iran, an oil exporter. Environmentalists are setting the stage for a nuclear WWIII. We will all pay a heavy price for their insanity.
The thing is, it doesn’t really matter what the power source is – eco-groups will block it. Even if it’s theoretically on their list of approved sources. Put up a windmill, they’ll block it. Take hydro – cleanest true renewable power source available – and they’ll tear out every dam they can.
That’s why there’s simply no gain in negotiating with them on any level.
I wonder why novelists often foresee the future better than “experts”. The novel “Overload” by Arthur Hailey, published 1979 pointed out all of the problems currently being experienced in electrical energy generation industry. The only thing not being experienced is the funding of terrorism/sabotage by the “environmentalists”.
Perhaps I should not have pointed this out as the Gaia worshipers may use the novel as an instruction manual.
There is an annual conference sponsored by the CIA that brings together novelists — often science fiction and military “thriller” writers — to come up with scenarios in which the United States can be attacked or weakened. It’s along the concept of, “if it can be imagined, it can happen.” Of course, the idea has been raised that popular novelists are actually *giving* ideas to potential terrorists/bad actors (not in the movie sense, like Brad Pitt). Personally, I believe that black hats have enough imagination to come up with all sorts of dangerous stuff on their own. The conference is meant to goad the security agencies to be on the look-out for the weird and wonderful. Defense is always more difficult that offense.
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Unfortunately, building new nuclear plants has been made quite expensive. Natural gas is far cheaper. Here’s the thing though, coal is also cheap, but the enviroloons and warmunists hate coal. So the sensible thing to do, once Trump is president, is to go back to coal, and let coal and gas fight it out. The consumer wins that battle. As for nuclear, well, perhaps it’s time has come and gone, at least until we get a cheaper, better version of it.
but in the US gas will always be cheaper… except that in some places and applications solar and wind are also cheaper than both.
What no peak gas … that isn’t like you Griff.
Solar power is the cheapest at night. Its $0.00 a kilowatt hour
Free cold in winter and free heat in summer. That solar stuff is great huh?
Doonman: Heh, heh, heh! One divided by zero. Love it.
Griff it’s got worse, I was reading up on all the changes to the Swedish decision to abandon wind and go back to nuclear. Finland is considering doing the same it already has Hanhikivi 1 under construction.
It was interesting what the Swedish electrical utilities did which was call the politicians bluff and refused to sign electricity supply contract extensions and stated they intended to close the reactors back in Oct 2015. There are lots of news articles about it and the greens very happy.
Quote: “Vattenfall, Sweden’s largest utility, threatened earlier this year to shut by the end of the decade the country’s six remaining reactors if the tax – which raised about $484m (€430m) last year – was not scrapped.”
The stark reality obviously sinks in when all the government experts tell them there country is about to go back to the dark ages. They drop the special tax imposed on nuclear power which was then used to subsidize renewable energy .. I can imagine the nuclear industry was a bit peeved with it.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP-Sweden-abolishes-nuclear-tax-1006169.html
Then they basically sign in to building up to 10 more nuclear power plants.
I think there is a lesson here for other countries to call the Bluff of the greens.
What a beautiful example of extortion by litigation.
Reblogged this on Astronomy Topic Of The Day and commented:
Instead of moving forward socially, educationally and technically into the 21st century, we are taking giant strides backwards.
This outcome is a failure of our educational system and a complete lack of any forward thinking and science literacy. Although much progress has been made in developing and deploying green energy technologies, there is a way to go before it can be considered a complete and viable substitute for nuclear power as is suggested by this agreement. With an ever-dwindling supply of carbon-based energy sources, the strain on the infrastructure and those resources will become increasingly acute, resulting in ever-higher prices coupled with increasingly more aggressive methods employed by powerful petroleum interests and governments to secure those resources. I can foresee the day, not too far off, when sanctioned military conflict will be waged to secure the ever-dwindling vestiges of a squandered resource. I have written a number of articles articulating the benefits of an expanded nuclear power baseline, highlighting how new and improved fast-breeder reactor technologies can address the growing energy demand while going a long way towards solving the nuclear waste disposal problem. As carbon-based energy generation becomes increasingly problematic, as energy demand approaches critical mass, the need for nuclear power to play an expanded role in the energy sector is obvious to anyone who is paying attention. Sadly, this reality is lost on NRDC, the operator of Diablo Canyon and the State of California.
This agreement stems from the same ignorance that has led to a growing belief that the earth is flat. Seriously, many well-educated people (doctors, attorneys, airline pilots!) truly believe that the earth is flat, this in the face of incontrovertible evidence from many directions that include six successful moon landings, rovers on Mars, orbiting telescopes and observatories, a science platform in orbit around Saturn, flybys of Pluto, GPS, communications satellites, Satellite TV, the list is long and growing of our scientific achievements as a race and a species, many with clearly demonstrable aspects of a spheroidal Earth. In their minds (and in the mind of anyone who holds such aberrant beliefs), reality becomes what I believe it to be. The problem metastasizes into a full-blown cancer when those belief systems begin to affect legislation and dictate public policy, such as what has just happened with Diablo Canyon.
Green energy technology includes all non-carbon based sources, including nuclear. This reminds me of the 20-year-long fiasco trying to open Long Island’s Shoreham Nuclear Power Station, something we just paid off (to the tune of $6 B – a 3 percent surcharge is attached to Long Island electric bills for 30 years to pay off the $6 billion) and something that never generated 1 watt of commercial power, thanks to New York’s current governor’s deceased father, the late Gov. Mario Cuomo. The plant was approved in 1972 and construction began the following year and was completed in 1984. Although much of the hype was based on what happened at TMI and Chernobyl, there would never be the need for a full evacuation. Then Gov. Cuomo ordered state officials not to approve any utility-sponsored evacuation plan, effectively preventing the plant from operating at full capacity. This is what happens when science illiteracy becomes pandemic and impacts public policy – the mix can be disastrous! This situation hasn’t improved but, in point of fact, has gotten a lot worse.
Much can happen in the intervening 9 years; lets hope for (and work towards) the day when cooler heads (and clear thinking) prevail.
Some of these same enviro advocacy groups successfully halted other nuclear plants with the courtroom argument that there would be a scarcity of fuel and higher fuel costs (San Diego case). Since this case was won with completely opposite arguments compared to reality, it demonstrates that whatever ploy works at the time wins the case. Nuclear may have been a financial disaster for ratepayers but fuel scarcity and associated cost was not even close to reality. Manipulating courts and the energy commission requires big bucks for that kind of special skill.