We can end the climate policy wars: demand a test of the models

By Larry Kummer. From the Fabius Maximus website.

Summary: This is the last of my series about ways to resolve the public policy debate about climate change. It puts my proposal to test the models in a wider context of science norms and the climate science literature. My experience shows that neither side of the climate wars has much interest in a fair test; both sides want to win through politics. Resolving the climate policy wars through science will require action by us, the American public.

Ending the climate policy debate the right way

Do you trust the predictions of climate models? That is, do they provide an adequate basis on which to make major public policy decisions about issues with massive social, economic and environmental effects? In response to my posts on several high-profile websites, I’ve had discussions about this with hundreds of people. Some say “yes”; some say “no”. The responses are alike in that both sides have sublime confidence in their answers; the discussions are alike in they quickly become a cacophony.

The natural result: while a slim majority of the public says they “worry” about climate change — they consistently rank it near or at the bottom of their policy concerns. Accordingly, the US public policy machinery has gridlocked on this issue.

Yet the issue continues to burn, absorbing policy makers’ attention and scarce public funds. Worst of all, the paralysis prevents efforts to prepare even for the almost certain repeat of past climate events — as Tropical Storm Sandy showed NYC and several studies have shown for Houston — and distracts attention from other serious environmental problems (e.g., destruction of ocean ecosystems).

How can we resolve this policy deadlock?  Eventually, either the weather or science will answer our questions, albeit perhaps at great cost. We could just vote, abandoning the pretense there is any rational basis for US public policy (fyi, neither Kansas nor Alabama voted that Pi = 3).

We can do better. The government can focus the institutions of science on questions of public policy importance. We didn’t wait for the normal course of research to produce an atomic bomb or send men to the moon. We’re paying for it, so the government can set standards for research, as is routinely done for the military and health care industries (e.g., FDA drug approval regulations).

The policy debate turns on the reliability of the predictions of climate models. These can be tested to give “good enough” answers for policy decision-makers so that they can either proceed or require more research. I proposed one way to do this in Climate scientists can restart the climate change debate & win: test the models! — with includes a long list of cites (with links) to the literature about this topic. This post shows that such a test is in accord with both the norms of science and the work of climate scientists.

We can resolve this policy debate.  So far America lacks only the will to do so. That will have to come from us, the American public.

The goal: providing a sound basis for public policy

“Thus an extraordinary claim requires “extraordinary” (meaning stronger than usual) proof.”

— By Marcello Truzzi in “Zetetic Ruminations on Skepticism and Anomalies in Science“, Zetetic Scholar, August 1987. See the full text here.

“For such a model there is no need to ask the question ‘Is the model true?’. If ‘truth’ is to be the ‘whole truth’ the answer must be ‘No’. The only question of interest is ‘Is the model illuminating and useful?’”

— G.E.P. Box in “Robustness in the strategy of scientific model building” (1978). He also said “All models are wrong; some are useful.”

Measures to fix climate change range from massive (e.g., carbon taxes and new regulations) to changing the nature of our economic system (as urged by Pope Francis and Naomi Kleinclip_image001). Such actions requires stronger proof than usual in science (academic disputes are so vicious because the stakes are so small). On the other hand, politics is not geometry; it’s “the art of the possible” (Bismarck, 1867). Perfect proof is not needed. The norms of science can guide us in constructing useful tests.

Successful predictions: the gold standard for validating theories

“Probably {scientists’} most deeply held values concern predictions: they should be accurate; quantitative predictions are preferable to qualitative ones; whatever the margin of permissible error, it should be consistently satisfied in a given field; and so on.”

— Thomas Kuhn in The Structure of Scientific Revolutionsclip_image001[1] (1962).

“Confirmations should count only if they are the result of risky predictions; that is to say, if, unenlightened by the theory in question, we should have expected an event which was incompatible with the theory — an event which would have refuted the theory.”

— Karl Popper in Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledgeclip_image001[2] (1963).

“The ultimate goal of a positive science is the development of a “theory” or, “hypothesis” that yields valid and meaningful (i.e., not truistic) predictions about phenomena not yet observed. … the only relevant test of the validity of a hypothesis is comparison of its predictions with experience.”

— Milton Friedman in “The Methodology of Positive Economics“ from Essays in Positive Economicsclip_image001[3] (1966).

“Some annoying propositions: Complex econometrics never convinces anyone. … Natural experiments rule. But so do surprising predictions that come true.”

— Paul Krugman in “What have we learned since 2008“ (2016). True as well for climate science.

The policy debate rightly turns on the reliability of climate models. Models produce projections of global temperatures when run with estimates of future conditions (e.g., aerosols and greenhouse gases). When run with observations they produce predictions which can be compared with actual temperatures to determine the model’s skill. These tests are hindcasting, comparing models’ predictions with past temperatures. That’s a problem.

“One of the main problems faced by predictions of long-term climate change is that they are difficult to evaluate. … Trying to use present predictions of past climate change across historical periods as a verification tool is open to the allegation of tuning, because those predictions have been made with the benefit of hindsight and are not demonstrably independent of the data that they are trying to predict.

— “Assessment of the first consensus prediction on climate change“, David J. Frame and Dáithí A. Stone, Nature Climate Change, April 2013.

“…results that are predicted “out-of-sample” demonstrate more useful skill than results that are tuned for (or accommodated).”

— “A practical philosophy of complex climate modelling” by Gavin A. Schmidt and Steven Sherwood, European Journal for Philosophy of Science, May 2015 (ungated copy).

Don’t believe the excuses: models can be thoroughly tested

Models should be tested vs. out of sample observations to prevent “tuning” the model to match known data (even inadvertently), for the same reason that scientists run double-blind experiments). The future is the ideal out of sample data, since model designers cannot tune their models to it. Unfortunately…

“…if we had observations of the future, we obviously would trust them more than models, but unfortunately observations of the future are not available at this time.”

— Thomas R. Knutson and Robert E. Tuleya, note in Journal of Climate, December 2005.

There is a solution. The models from the first four IPCC assessment reports can be run with observations made after their design (from their future, our past) — a special kind of hindcast.

“To avoid confusion, it should perhaps be noted explicitly that the “predictions” by which the validity of a hypothesis is tested need not be about phenomena that have not yet occurred, that is, need not be forecasts of future events; they may be about phenomena that have occurred but observations on which have not yet been made or are not known to the person making the prediction.”

— Milton Friedman, ibid.

“However, the passage of time helps with this problem: the scientific community has now been working on the climate change topic for a period comparable to the prediction and the timescales over which the climate is expected to respond to these types of external forcing (from now on simply referred to as the response). This provides the opportunity to start evaluating past predictions of long-term climate change: even though we are only halfway through the period explicitly referred to in some predictions, we think it is reasonable to start evaluating their performance…”

— Frum and Stone, ibid.

We can run the models as they were originally run for the IPCC in the First Assessment Report (1990), in the Second (1995), and the Third (2001) — using actual emissions as inputs but with no changes of the algorithms, etc. The results allow testing of their predictions over multi-decade periods.

These older models were considered skillful when published, so determination of their skill will help us decide if we now have sufficiently strong evidence to take large-scale policy action on climate change. The cost of this test will be trivial compared to overall cost of climate science research — and even more so compared to the stakes at risk for the world should the high-end impact forecasts prove correct.

Determining models’ skill

“Confirmations should count only if they are the result of risky predictions; that is to say, if, unenlightened by the theory in question, we should have expected an event which was incompatible with the theory — an event which would have refuted the theory.”

— Karl Popper in Conjectures and Refutations: The Growth of Scientific Knowledgeclip_image001[4] (1963).

“We stress that adequacy or utility of climate models is best assessed via their skill against more naıve predictions.”

— Mann-Sherwood, ibid.

How do we evaluate the skill of models? A prediction of warming says little, since the world has been warming since the mid-19th century — so continued warming is a “naive” prediction. A simple continuation of trends is one form of baseline against which to compare a model’s predictions.

The literature proposes more sophisticated baselines which raise the bar for success. These tests will produce data, not black and white answers. What would come next in the policy process? For a summary see “The ‘uncertainty loop’ haunting our climate models” by David Roberts at Vox, 23 October 2015.

clip_image002

From “The uncertainty loop haunting our climate models” at VOX, 23 October 2016. Click to enlarge.

Have model predictions been tested?

“The scientific community has placed little emphasis on providing assessments of CMP {climate model prediction} quality in light of performance at severe tests. … CMP quality is thus supposed to depend on simulation accuracy. However, simulation accuracy is not a measure of test severity. If, for example, a simulation’s agreement with data results from accommodation of the data, the agreement will not be unlikely, and therefore the data will not severely test the suitability of the model that generated the simulation for making any predictions.”

— “Should we assess climate model predictions in light of severe tests?” by Joel Katzav in EOS (by the American Geophysical Union), 11 June 2011.

A proposal similar to mine was made by Roger Pielke Jr. in “Climate predictions and observations“, Nature Geoscience, April 2008. Oddly, this has not been done, although there have been simple examinations of model projections (i.e., using estimates of future data, not predictions using observations), countless naive hindcasts (predicting the past using observations available to model developers), and reports of successful predictions of specific components of weather dynamics (useful if it were to be done systematically so an overall “score” was produced).

For a review of this literature see (f) in the For More Information section of my proposal.

Conclusions

In my experience both sides in the public policy debate have become intransigent and excessively confident. Hence the disinterest of both sides in testing since they plan to win by brute force: electing politicians that agree with them. I’ve found a few exceptions, such as climate scientists Roger Pielke Sr. and Judith Curry, and meteorologist Anthony Watts. More common are the many scientists who told me that they shifted to low-profile research topics to avoid the pressure, or have abandoned climate science entirely (e.g., Roger Pielke Jr.).

We — the American public — have to force change in this dysfunctional public policy debate. We pay for most climate science research, and can focus it on providing answers that we need. The alternative is to wait for the weather to answer our questions, after which we pay the costs. They might be high.

clip_image003

Other posts about the climate policy debate

This post is a summary of the information and conclusions from these posts, which discuss these matters in greater detail.

  1. How we broke the climate change debates. Lessons learned for the future.
  2. My proposal: Climate scientists can restart the climate change debate – & win.
  3. Thomas Kuhn tells us what we need to know about climate science.
  4. Daniel Davies’ insights about predictions can unlock the climate change debate.
  5. Karl Popper explains how to open the deadlocked climate policy debate.
  6. Paul Krugman talks about economics. Climate scientists can learn from his insights.
  7. Milton Friedman’s advice about restarting the climate policy debate.
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CheshireRed
March 9, 2016 9:51 am

A nice idea from Larry except for just one tiny snag: climate alarmists aren’t remotely interested in truth, reality, accuracy or authenticity. Theirs is an ideologically-driven political campaign of activism-based advocacy, and has sweet FA to do with observed reality. You’d get a fairer hearing from a north Korean military tribunal than NOAA, GISS or any members of the Team.

Reply to  CheshireRed
March 9, 2016 3:02 pm

As has been shown time and again. Starting with Climategate, ending (for now) with Mann v. Steyn.

Reply to  CheshireRed
March 11, 2016 2:45 pm

Chesire,
As I’ve pointed out many times. the goal here is to influence the large middle of the US public.
Now they rank climate change among the lowest of major public policy concerns. That could change with the political winds, or after several extreme weather events (blamed, of course, on climate change).
Let’s see if we can resolve this debate now, and move forward.

marlolewisjr
March 9, 2016 10:01 am

Larry, seems to me Christopher Monckton has attempted to carry out your research agenda, comparing IPCC model projections from 1990, 1995, and 2001 with subsequent observations: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/02/06/the-pause-hangs-on-by-its-fingernails/ If that’s not the kind of test you have in mind, please clarify how yours differs.

Reply to  marlolewisjr
March 11, 2016 2:52 pm

Marlolweisjr,
I don’t see Monckton running any climate models. Just another round of parsing the numbers, which has been done endlessly for 2 decades. The models are run with multiple scenarios, which give the familiar “spaghetti graphs” which — like Rorschach tests — are open to countless interpretations.
Run them with actual data and see their predictions for the period up to the present. Compare with actual temps. Move forward.

March 9, 2016 10:08 am

“Do you trust the predictions of climate models? That is, do they provide an adequate basis on which to make major public policy decisions about issues with massive social, economic and environmental effects?”
The question is do policy makers and regulators feel justified in relying on models to INFORM their decisions.?
Skeptics will never accept any test of a model. They have a theory. The climate cant be predicted.
When we do predict with SKILL ( not perfection but skill ), then the response is:
1) you tuned the model ( totally acceptable practice by the way)
2) Being correct in hindcasts, is no guarantee of forecast accuracy
3. Being right over a period X years long is no proof of the future.
In short, skeptics have an unfalsifiable theory.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 9, 2016 11:17 am

Steven Mosher-
“Skeptics will never accept any test of a model. They have a theory. The climate can’t be predicted.”
Have you surveyed all skeptics and gathered empirical evidence in which they state the above? Or are you making wild arsed assumptions based on something else? The first would be part of the scientific method-observation and evidence. The second would be part of irrational, illogical cognition.
When you can build an accurate model, that considers EVERY known aspect of the climate fairly and accurately, and then tracks with the actual climate in real time for 5-10 years accurately with no adjustments, I’ll accept that model as being an “accurate model of our climate”. THEN you can project that model another 10-20 years into the future and we’ll observe it and see if it has “predictive accuracy” as well. I think that sounds perfectly logical and reasonable. As a skeptic, I would LOVE nothing more than to have the climate be so well understood in every aspect that it could be predicted accurately. That it currently cannot be predicted does not automatically cause me to conclude that it never will be!
So, IF skeptic HAD the theory that YOU have assigned TO them, all you have to do to falsify that theory-the climate cannot be predicted-is find a way to predict the climate. It is TOTALLY falsifiable.
That current models FAIL to predict the weather is not the skeptics problem, it’s the model’s problem. That the climate has failed to do what AGW scientists predicted would happen with increasing CO2 emissions is AGW scientist’s problem-not skeptics. In short, AGW theory is not a validated theory.

Reply to  Aphan
March 10, 2016 6:45 pm

“Have you surveyed all skeptics and gathered empirical evidence in which they state the above?
1. I surveyed a very large sample. I have YET to find a skeptic who argues that climate can
be predicted.
Or are you making wild arsed assumptions based on something else?
1. Nope over 7 years of study.
When you can build an accurate model, that considers EVERY known aspect of the climate fairly and accurately, and then tracks with the actual climate in real time for 5-10 years accurately with no adjustments, I’ll accept that model as being an “accurate model of our climate”.
1. Luckily we dont have to satisfy you.
2. the models already tract what they need to track. every known aspect is not important
THEN you can project that model another 10-20 years into the future and we’ll observe it and see if it has “predictive accuracy” as well. I think that sounds perfectly logical and reasonable. As a skeptic, I would LOVE nothing more than to have the climate be so well understood in every aspect that it could be predicted accurately. That it currently cannot be predicted does not automatically cause me to conclude that it never will be!
1. That’s already been done.
2. you dont need accurate predictions to set policy or take action. They just need to be better than Naive guesses.
That current models FAIL to predict the weather is not the skeptics problem, it’s the model’s problem.
Models predict weather all the time. they dont fail.

Science or Fiction
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 9, 2016 1:25 pm

No – skeptics know that a theory is merited by the severity of the tests it has been exposed to and survived, and not at all by inductive arguments in favor of it. All real scientists are also skeptics.

Paul Coppin
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 9, 2016 7:52 pm

“Do you trust the predictions of climate models? That is, do they provide an adequate basis on which to make major public policy decisions about issues with massive social, economic and environmental effects?”
The question is do policy makers and regulators feel justified in relying on models to INFORM their decisions.?

Strawman alert! In regard to the first question, the second question is irrelevant. Policy makers and regulators have no need to justify anything, because no one is holding them to account. The policy decisions have nothing to do with climate, and any justification required can be crafted on the back of a napkin during a meeting with your media team.
Then going on to rail about skeptics is simply trying to set fire to your strawman.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 9, 2016 10:01 pm

Climate CAN be predicted. Totally with you on that. Just not yet. Just not based on misunderstanding the radiative properties of CO2.
So Larry, dude, GO for it. Hindcast those model predictions…who is going to do it? I’d trust you. I’d trust Mosh, I’d trust Nick and all true scientists who “have no buddies by design” and routinely tell people what they don’t want to hear.
But you guys aren’t going to do it.
On the other hand, isn’t the testing process as simple as digitizing one of those graphs that shows a zillion model predictions increasing in range of variation with time and only by virtue of extreme low end members engaging observed temperature at all?
Shucks, here’s my proposal: digitizing scope above, ten grand, done in a week. Throw in comparison with all surface and satellite observational datasets. Could do it in half a day, but, you know, have to assemble a team…

Alx
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 10, 2016 5:27 am

The context is that models forecasts/projects/predicts FUTURE behavior.
1) Tuning is an accepted practice except when tuned to fit a bias
2) This relates to #1, being correct in hindcasts is not proof of a models future forecasting ability, but unsurprising proof of the model being able to be tuned to a predetermined outcome.
3) Models are considered right in their forecasts only if one uses the most generously wide, wide as the grand canyon concept of right. Similar to a meteorologist predicting 10 to 20 inches of snow, and then when it snows less than 1 inch takes credit for the accuracy of having forecast snow.
That is the important part; people, cites, towns, prepare differently when expecting 1/2 inch of snow vs 2 feet of snow. In that sense, the models level of accuracy provide weak basis for taking action.
Additionally we know the impacts of 2 feet of snow on a city, we do not know the impact of a world 2C warmer. Most likely it will help some regions, hurt others and have no effect for the majority of inhabited regions. But that is just a guess and I would not expect nations to be spending billions on guesses, as the alarmists do.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 11, 2016 2:59 pm

Mosher,
(1) “The question is do policy makers and regulators feel justified in relying on models to INFORM their decisions.?”
Some do. So far a majority don’t.
(2) “Skeptics will never accept any test of a model. ..
They say the exact same about you. My guess is that both sides are correct: you are all intransigent. But the vast majority of people — public and decision-makers — are not, and might find results of this test useful.
(3) “skeptics have an unfalsifiable theory.”
While such finger pointing by you and your foes is entertaining (at least to you folks), it has accomplished nothing for two decades. Let’s try a test to produce actual information, which might provide a basis to set the public policy machinery in motion.
*** Thank you for your comments, which so nicely show that the you are uninterested in fair tests.

March 9, 2016 10:11 am

“Thus an extraordinary claim requires “extraordinary” (meaning stronger than usual) proof.”
— By Marcello Truzzi in “Zetetic Ruminations on Skepticism and Anomalies in Science“, Zetetic Scholar, August 1987. See the full text here.
1. Its not an extraordinary claim.
“For such a model there is no need to ask the question ‘Is the model true?’. If ‘truth’ is to be the ‘whole truth’ the answer must be ‘No’. The only question of interest is ‘Is the model illuminating and useful?’”
— G.E.P. Box in “Robustness in the strategy of scientific model building” (1978). He also said “All models are wrong; some are useful.”
1. useful for WHO? not readers of the blog, but rather policy makers
Successful predictions: the gold standard for validating theories
Really?
watch
https://www.ted.com/talks/harry_cliff_have_we_reached_the_end_of_physics

seaice1
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 9, 2016 11:43 am

“1. Its not an extraordinary claim.” It rather depends on what “it” is. One could argue that CO2 not warming the climate is an extraordinary claim, given what Arrhenius thought all that time ago. CO2 will cause forcing, and it would be extraordinary if the feedbacks were just so that there was no change in climate.
“For such a model there is no need to ask the question ‘Is the model true?’.”
Aphan seems to have missed this. I will continue to plan my seasonal wardrobe on my imperfect climate model. Despite being unable to predict the weather in every detail, I will soon put away my winter coat and look out my shorts. The imperfect model is likely to be good enough for that purpose.

Reply to  seaice1
March 9, 2016 1:29 pm

seaice1-
Arrhenius also called it carbonic acid, predicted that American would run out of oil by 1953, and that England would be out of coal by now. He was also “a board member for the Swedish Society for Racial Hygiene (founded 1909), which endorsed mendelism at the time, and contributed to the topic of contraceptives around 1910. However, until 1938 information and sale of contraceptives was prohibited in Sweden. Around 1930, conservative members of the society helped to establish eugenic policies in Sweden”.
So Arrhenius wasn’t always “correct” was he? All things remaining equal, in a closed system, CO2 should cause some forcing when increased…but you have to prove first that all other things have remained equal….oh…and that you know of and have accounted for every other thing, accurately….first. Oh…and that the system is closed.
Of course a brief snippet of a quote, taken out of context, can mean anything the user of it wants it to mean, and it does not mean he used it in the same manner the original author used it. Box later also stated in regards to models- “Remember that all models are wrong; the practical question is how wrong do they have to be to not be useful.”
I’ve never been one to NEED a climate model to tell me when to put my winter coat away or “look out my shorts” (not even sure what that means). I observe conditions outside every day (models be damned) and make a determination of which attire is most appropriate to wear-along with whether or not I WANT to wear what is appropriate or not.
Box’s response to the question “Is the model true?” was- If “truth” is to be the “whole truth” the answer must be “No”. The only question of interest is “Is the model illuminating and useful?”.
So until seaice1 arrives at the conclusion that his model is neither illuminating or useful, he will most likely put on his winter coat and boots if his model recommends it, even if it’s 80 degrees and cloudless outside. I wonder how wrong it would have to be before he decides it’s not useful for determining what is happening in reality?

seaice1
Reply to  seaice1
March 10, 2016 4:02 am

Aphan, I seriously doubt that you do not make plans based on expectations of seasonal temperature variations. Most people plan things like holidays, for example planning to go in “summer” when temperatures are expected to be higher. The model is very useful, even though it cannot predict every aspect of the global climate, and so is “wrong”.
“All things remaining equal, in a closed system, CO2 should cause some forcing when increased…but you have to prove first that all other things have remained equal” Why should you have to prove that? I have seen a great many comments here suggesting that it should be assumed that changes are “natural” unless you can prove otherwise. The assumption should be that everything else stays the same unless you can prove otherwise.
People here seem to have a problem with understanding the point. Perfect accuracy is not possible in any model. The only way to be perfect is to reproduce exactly the original, then it is not a model but a copy. Because of this Richard wants to reject all climate models as wrong, and Aphan wants to impose an arbitrary level of accuracy that is way beyond any reasonable test of usefulness. This is demonstrated by models of seasonal temperature that have nowhere near the accuracy demanded by Aphan of climate models, yet are very useful.
I am not arguing here that the current climate models either are or are not useful. I am saying that the arguments put forward to demonstrate they are not useful are wrong.

AJB
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 9, 2016 11:47 am

Binary biped on TED, yawn.
http://www.computer-museum.ru/english/setun.htm
The real Donald is seldom wrong.
🙂

Tim Hammond
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 10, 2016 2:40 am

Lord but your smart-arsery is tedious.
If your predictions aren’t right, then you cannot base policy on them, So what are you claiming? That the predictions made by your theory don’t have to come true for your theory to be right? That the predictions made by your theory don’t have to come true for us to adopt polices to prevent the predictions coming true?
Just the usual random collection of statements and claims that don;t stand up together in any logical manner.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 11, 2016 2:42 pm

Mosher,
(1) “useful for WHO? not readers of the blog, but rather policy makers”
The US is a Republic. The responsibility for public policy is ours, which we express through elections. Hence this kind of information is useful for us. I am astonished that I needed to explain this to you.
(2) “Its not an extraordinary claim.”
Anything for which the recommended public policy response is global action on a massive scale is a “extraordinary claim”. Again, was it necessary to point this out?

Jaye Bass
March 9, 2016 10:15 am

I doubt they have even been through rigorous VERIFICATION much less any VALIDATION.

MarkW
March 9, 2016 10:21 am

A battle of the models.
Bikini or one piece?

Freedom Monger
March 9, 2016 10:26 am

I have written this before…
The whole debate about whether or not the Earth is warming is Meaningless without first addressing issue of whether or not it’s actually a Problem.
No Idea is more valid than its Premise – if the Premise is Bogus the Idea is Bogus.
If the Premise that a Warmer Earth is a Problem, is Bogus, the Idea that we should try to stop it is also Bogus.
Here are the two Logic Syllogisms that dominate this Debate.
• IF the Earth’s Temperature is rising THEN there is a Problem
• IF the Earth’s Temperature is not rising THEN there is not a Problem
The second syllogism would certainly disprove the first if the first syllogism were true. If the first syllogism, however, is False – one doesn’t need to use the second syllogism at all.
Why do people assume that a Warmer Earth is any more of a problem than it is now? Every type of Climate has its own set of Pros and Cons. A Warm Earth isn’t worse, it’s just different.

seaice1
Reply to  Freedom Monger
March 9, 2016 11:45 am

Interesting use of capitals.

Freedom Monger
Reply to  seaice1
March 9, 2016 12:00 pm

I’m sorry. I can’t help it. I try to remove the capitals but it causes me anxiety. It’s the way I write. It makes it easy to read things written by Thomas Jefferson, however. He seems to have had the same affliction.

Reply to  seaice1
March 9, 2016 2:32 pm

It’s a pattern of emphasis. Some people will tell you its like “yelling” on the internet, which is making an assumption about the emotional state of the person writing based only on the use of capital letters, which is irrational. Or that capitalizing certain words makes it seem like you elevate them beyond the accepted form…or blah blah blah. You (Freedom Monger) communicated perfectly well. As usual, seaice1 focuses on the model of your communication, rather than the result of it. 🙂

seaice1
Reply to  seaice1
March 10, 2016 5:39 am

Yes, Freedom Monger. I apologise for pointing this out. The capitals do not interfere with the meaning, and are perfectly OK as far as I am concerned. I shall not do it again.
You are correct, if a warmer Earth does not present a problem, then there is no need to worry about the Earth warming.

Freedom Monger
Reply to  seaice1
March 10, 2016 6:52 am

No need to apologize, I didn’t feel unjustly attacked. We’re good.

Don K
March 9, 2016 10:32 am

We — the American public — have to force change in this dysfunctional public policy debate.

Without disagreeing, How do you propose to accomplish this? AFAICS of the still active candidates, only Sanders and possibly Kasich are remotely analytical. Sanders believes that climate science is “settled” and Kasich doesn’t appear to have any interest at all in the subject. The rest of the crowd appear to be sociopaths who believe in whatever will bring them the most votes on election day. This seems not exactly ideal material for rational decision making.
BTW, why just the American public? Have the 96% of humanity who don’t live here no voice?

Freedom Monger
Reply to  Don K
March 9, 2016 10:49 am

We don’t need any kind of Climate Change policy, EVER!

richardscourtney
Reply to  Freedom Monger
March 9, 2016 11:59 am

Freedom Monger:
You say

We don’t need any kind of Climate Change policy, EVER!

Actually, since at least the Bronze Age all good governments did have a good and useful climate policy; viz.
climate changes so governments need to prepare for bad times when in good times.
This was a good policy because governments can survive people complaining at taxes in good times but will be overthrown by food riots that result from lack of preparation for bad times. And the same people who complain at taxes in good times prefer not to starve at any time.
This policy was so good that religious Scripture provides a story of its origin (i.e. Joseph with the amazing technicolour dreamcoat).
But in recent decades some governments have abandoned that tried and tested policy and are trying to control climate instead. This new policy of climate control results from the hypothesis of anthropogenic (i.e. man-made) global warming (AGW) which claims emissions of greenhouse gases (notably carbon dioxide) alone alter climate significantly. Adopting such an improbable hypothesis as the basis for an untested policy has – to put it mildly – high risk.
Richard

Freedom Monger
Reply to  Freedom Monger
March 9, 2016 12:24 pm

Thank you Richard,
Your last paragraph described the type of “climate change” policy I think we don’t need.

Reply to  Freedom Monger
March 11, 2016 2:37 pm

Richard,
Nicely said. Sad that you even needed to point this out.
Climate changes have wrecked countless civilizations, and given tough times to many others.

Neo
March 9, 2016 10:38 am

The other side of this is the simple question…
Will any of the solutions work ?
Man and/or governments have no record on fixing weather or climate.

Chip Javert
March 9, 2016 10:38 am

Heh heh.
Yea, This’ll work: it assumes supposed participants have ethics. Also assumes the “Climate Model Industry” is willing to go all in on their models, and a whole bunch of politicians are willing to risk losing the carbon fear taxes.
The scientific battle has not been lost, but the political battle was lost when “academia” didn’t severely shame CAGW charlatans when this con-job fist appeared. Turns out academia had the guts of a butterfly and politicians have the morals of a baboon (apologies to Truman Capote). This political charade will run for some time.

Don K
Reply to  Chip Javert
March 9, 2016 12:48 pm

By prepared for lawsuits from :
1) politicians
2) lawyers claiming to represent the majority of living baboons.

GTL
March 9, 2016 10:40 am

Most people, who do not delve into details of climate “science”, only have our word that the models have failed. They also only have the word of the alarmists that CO2 increases will be catastrophic. How do most people, including politicians, know what to believe?
I agree, what is needed is objective testing. It may not provide conclusive proof one way or another due to all the problems with data, and unknowns, but should be able to provide good indication of whether we should rely on the current climate models for policy making. At least we should be able to produce error bars for the results. If the error bars are huge, as I suspect, then the answer will be no.
If testing the models proves impossible, then we will have learned something and the answer again will be no. Most people, I think, would not accept model output, that under objective testing, defied rational analysis.
How about making this a plank in both political party platforms? Since both sides are so sure of themselves they might accept.

Warren Latham
March 9, 2016 10:53 am

I find this article a little tiresome: it gives the impression of seeking for truth (which is commendable) but will only result in paralysis by analysis.
Firstly; in the title heading, who exactly is “We” ?
Secondly; there is no “public policy debate”.
Thirdly; there are NO “two sides”.
There is no need for testing of the “models”: Marcus is quite right on this; they have already failed.
Thanks to WUWT we can all see the dash for cash in the “recent studies” from grant-chasers but make no mistake, the gravy train will end and the bed-wetters will have to choke on their own vomit.
As for debate, the only debate of any real consequence would be Monckton versus Gore.

GTL
Reply to  Warren Latham
March 9, 2016 1:33 pm

Problem is the “general public” does not read this blob. An independent analysis would not require the “general public” to delve into the details. They are not going to do the research needed to make their own decision.

GTL
Reply to  GTL
March 9, 2016 1:34 pm

Sorry, that S/B blog

Reply to  GTL
March 9, 2016 2:42 pm

“They are not going to do the research needed to make their own decision”???
Therefore someone else must do the research for them? Or make the decision for them? Or determine that climate change is an issue that must be addressed on their behalf?

Chip Javert
Reply to  GTL
March 9, 2016 3:18 pm

Aphran
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-07/who-is-washington-dc-named-after-americans-dont-know
link points to a US News & World Report video in which (apparently) adult, somewhat sober citizens couldn’t say who Washington DC was named after. Really.

Reply to  GTL
March 9, 2016 3:53 pm

What’s your point Chip? That some people are stupid? Well duh.
Let’s examine the video. It was produced by a man who is a known conspiracy theorist who believes the world is going to hell because “secret organizations” are orchestrating things.
It’s a 4+minute video in which he talks to 14 different people. About half of them DO know what the nation’s Capital is, and who is was named after. A couple know it’s called Washington DC, and that it was named after “Washington” but they can’t remember his first name. A man clearly hung over is WEARING a Washington D.C. shirt, but doesn’t know the name of the capital or who it was named after or even where he got the shirt. After having what it says pointed out to him, he DOES click into the fact that Washington D.C. IS the capital and that it must be named after someone named Washington. About 4 people don’t know either one.
So, lets assume for arguments sake that Mr. Dice spent more than 4 minutes interviewing people. And let’s assume, since he was attempting to prove that Americans need to “wake up” because they are stupid….that if he HAD interviewed a lot more people, and there were a lot more who did NOT know…he would have edited the video to include a LOT more people because it would prove his point with greater force.
So, I’m going to assume that since there were only 4 people who were totally clueless in the video, that he DID interview a lot more people and the majority DID know what the capital was AND who it was named after without hesitation. He ended up with 7 or 8 people who either hemmed and hawed, or took a moment to think about it, got it half right, or didn’t know and made a 4+ minute video out of the longer than normal interviews he did with those people.
MY point is…it’s most likely a contrived video created for an express purpose…and scientific accuracy is probably NOT that purpose. Do you believe that other people should be making decisions that affect all of us, even if…or especially if… we aren’t all geniuses or trivial pursuit masters?
If so…who determines WHO is the best/most qualified person to be making those decisions for us? If you are in the hospital and incapable of making medical decisions for yourself, do you want a loved one making them for you….or a politician? Or a scientist? Or an independent analyst? Someone who knows what YOU would want….or someone that is completely neutral….or someone who takes everyone else into consideration and not just you?

Don B
March 9, 2016 11:05 am

“How do we evaluate the skill of models? A prediction of warming says little, since the world has been warming since the mid-19th century..”
Actually, the world has been warming since the 17th century, for at least 300 years. The consensus climate models cannot explain that warming.
“During the 17th century, longer winters and cooler summers disrupted growing seasons and destroyed harvests across Europe. It was the coldest century in a period of glacial expansion that lasted from the early 14th century until the mid-19th century. The summer of 1641 was the third-coldest recorded over the past six centuries in Europe; the winter of 1641-42 was the coldest ever recorded in Scandinavia. The unusual cold that lasted from the 1620s until the 1690s included ice on both the Bosporus and the Baltic so thick that people could walk from one side to the other.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/opinion/sunday/lessons-from-the-little-ice-age.html?_r=0

Don B
Reply to  Don B
March 9, 2016 12:30 pm

Dr. David Evans has developed a climate model which has solar variability driving earth’s temperature, with a lag, and which has carbon dioxide in a minor role. He writes that his model’s predictions of imminent cooling mean that in just a few years the model will be tested.
http://joannenova.com.au/tag/evans-david/

Reply to  Don B
March 9, 2016 3:13 pm

True, it will be. Even if the prediction is correct, does not mean his model is. I have strongly supported him on some points (e.g. Partial derivatives over at the Lucia nonsense concerning same in re climate models), but strongly disagree on other points (model sensitivity to delta 100 meter ‘opacity height’ in a troposphere averaging 15 Km (latitude corrected for curvature), gross divergence from many new energy budget sensitivity analyses…). Through such disagreements and agreements, ‘truer’ knowledge advances.

Dav09
March 9, 2016 11:17 am

Even granting for sake of discussion the highly dubious premise that the “public” (i.e. the electoral majority) is, or can be motivated by anything besides how much free [stuff] they personally get from the government, the notion that public demand for a “fair test” will actually result in such a test being conducted AND that the test results, if against current CAGW policy, will actually cause that policy to be abandoned is, to say it as politely as possible, catastrophically naive.
To anyone interested in a far, far more realistic assessment of the political situation re “climate” (and it is a political – not scientific – situation, which the piece makes quite clear) I recommend:
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/12/climategate-historys-message.html
N.B. I don’t endorse the prescription in the above, but the diagnosis is 100 percent spot on. And the news isn’t good.

Betapug
March 9, 2016 11:22 am

Unfortunately, the idea that “The policy debate turns on the reliability of the predictions of climate models” is likely in error. As EU Climate Commissioner Connie Hedegaard said in 2013:
“Let’s say that science, some decades from now, said ‘we were wrong, it was not about climate’, would it not in any case have been good to do many of things you have to do in order to combat climate change?.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/climatechange/10313261/EU-policy-on-climate-change-is-right-even-if-science-was-wrong-says-commissioner.html
The task of “testing the models” is also fraught by the (Groucho) Marxist paradigm, “Those are my (models), and if you don’t like them…well I have others.” http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1185-those-are-my-principles-and-if-you-don-t-like-them-well

Chris Z.
March 9, 2016 11:23 am

Something that would help more than any models (valid or invalid) and science altogether would be a clear cut between science and politics: The object of science is to describe the physical world and find out about its inner workings in whatever way seems suitable, from physics and mathematics to psychoanalysis. Politics MUST NOT be influenced by this work if both science and politics are to flourish. I do not see it as a grave defect if politicians are laymen when it comes to science, because IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS meddling in things that depend on scientific research. There is no good reason the state should make ANY laws regarding emissions, use of resources, and other more-or-less related fields (e.g. health and safety laws etc.) A democratic government’s purpose cannot be to think and decide for their citizens. Not even the more successful totalitary governments of the past tried such a thing. A minimalist state whose only purpose is to enforce basic laws that guarantee safety from bodily agression of one citizen against another (and safety of private physical property), and at the same time provides the infrastructure enabling everybody to maximize their personal happiness and wealth. Apart from theft and bodily assault, there are few if any things that should be in any way subject matter for laws and regulations. Our problem is not that we have politicians misinformed on climate issues, but that we have politicians who think climate change is their business.

Chip Javert
Reply to  Chris Z.
March 9, 2016 12:04 pm

Chris
Do you have a clear-cut example of when telling politicians that IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS (especially when dealing with taxes) has actually worked?

March 9, 2016 11:29 am

Larry,
Your attempt is commendable, but naive. Instead of excoriating those who you feel have missed the point, I would encourage you to understand that many of them have fought the very battle you propose. It is you who have missed their points.
Further, the test you propose has already been done. The IPCC themselves have evaluated the climate models and found them wanting (AR5). They run too hot by their own admission Further, in their own analysis of the negative impacts to climate change that they themselves predict, a plethora of other factors from technology change to population growth are ranked as not only being higher than climate change, but much higher.
Despite which the world’s political elite stumble along making vague promises to “do something” about climate change, and casting it as the greatest threat there is to humanity when the very science to which they refer says differently. What value in proposing a test when the test has already been done and the very proponents of it carry on as if it has not?
“One must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore.”
~ Ottmar Edenhofer, Co-Chair, UN/IPCC WG-3

Reply to  davidmhoffer
March 9, 2016 3:19 pm

DH, a magnificent comment in many ways. I would only add that folks as diverse as Mike Hulme at UEA and Christina Figueres of UNFCCC have said inmwriting essentially the same things as Edenhofer.

Stephen Richards
March 9, 2016 11:30 am

If you want to resolve a scientific issue with science your start will have to be more scientific than this statement.
That is, do they provide an adequate basis on which to make major public policy decisions about issues with massive social, economic and environmental effects?

Harry Passfield
March 9, 2016 11:32 am

In the conclusions there is this: “Hence the disinterest of both sides in testing…”, when it really ought to have read: Hence, the lack of interest of both sides..etc. Unless, of course, anyone can show me how Michael Mann is a ‘disinterested’ party to climate change.

Reply to  Harry Passfield
March 11, 2016 3:02 pm

Harry,
Good catch! Thanks for flagging that.

prjindigo
March 9, 2016 11:46 am

The first problem they’d face is simple: By computer terminology they don’t even have a model or modele’

David S
March 9, 2016 11:47 am

If you can’t predict the past, how can you predict the future. The adjustment and corruption of data has corrupted the debate. But whether or not the models are right the real issue is ,whether Warmists or realists are right ,what is man’s capability to adjust to temperature changes of 1-2 degrees a century. In my air conditioned house run on fossil fuel generated electricity and about to head to work in my air conditioned office drinking water from my fossil fuelled fridge I would say pretty good. In the early to mid 20th century when we had plenty of hot days I’m not convinced that the death rates were dramatically higher because the effective temperature of ones personal environment was that much higher ( probably by 6 or more degrees). No air conditioning or fridges people managed and they will in the future. Whatever temperatures rises are feared in the future the impact of them on humans will be anything but catastrophic.
The best we as a race can do is make the cheapest and most effective energy available to all humans so they at least can live in comfort. The only answer is fossil fuels.

TA
Reply to  David S
March 11, 2016 2:13 pm

“If you can’t predict the past, how can you predict the future. The adjustment and corruption of data has corrupted the debate.”
Yes! The debate shoud be about the “adjustment and corruption of data”, not about the corrupted data itself.

March 9, 2016 12:02 pm

Fabius, “My experience shows that neither side of the climate wars has much interest in a fair test; both sides want to win through politics.
Your experience, then, is restricted to politicians. Classified among the politicians are Michael Mann, Gavin Schmidt, and the rest of the Hockey Team, who have spared no effort to politicize the global warming debate. Their vile politics of character assassination, defamation, and information suppression is endogenous. Any politics in their opposition has been induced.
The scientists in opposition I know or of whom I am familiar, such as Willie Soon, Chris Essex, (the late and missed) Bob Carter, Anastasios Tsonis, Demetris Koutsoyiannis, Sallie Baliunas, Will Happer, Dick Lindzen, and our own Anthony Watts, all want a fair test and all want science to win (as opposed to them personally winning political points).
They have all considered the science and are probably each and all confident that it supports their stated views.

Gary Pearse
March 9, 2016 12:34 pm

Larry, you reveal a surprising lack of understanding of the position of the true sceptic. Despite the depth of your engagement in the subject you appear to not know that there are those who react against the warmest position as political contrarians without any knowledge or interest in the science.
This is precisely the position ingenuously taken by the warmists to marginalize serious scientific sceptics and you have been duped by this simple subterfuge. This is the world’s number one science site. This and a few others have talented scientists, engineers mathematicians and economists that have debunked papers and had them withdrawn from reluctant and partisan journals.
This is vital work that should be done by all scientists but is not being done warm proponents. Larry without a thorough education on what this is all about, you have nothing useful to offer here. Sorry.

March 9, 2016 12:47 pm

As I’ve said before, they will soon just falsify all data so it’s not going to matter. It really won’t matter unless we get rid of the Greens who have infested every country with their propaganda. It’s hard to convince ignorant people when they can’t even read a simple graph and question what the data really says. I mean, the graph goes up and to the right! Dumbest people I know, but if you’re a 22 year old guy it helps to say “I love polar bears and hate old rich people,” if you’re trying to get laid. Seriously, a lot of this is just the ‘protest culture’.

Chris Hanley
March 9, 2016 12:50 pm

“Even though the projections from the models were never intended to be predictions over such a short time scale, the observations through 2012 generally fall within the projections made in all past assessments …” IPCC AR5.
http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/figures/WGI_AR5_Fig1-4.jpg
=======================================
So there you have it Mr Editor, the IPCC have tested their models against observations and declared them a success, so far, although as has been shown they succeed through subtle and artful ’chartmanship’:comment image
As this is the final in your series I think we have to leave it something like: the models’ success or otherwise is in the eye of the beholder and if in future the observations happen to slip obviously below the lowest “projection”, why they can always be tweaked up a bit without too much grief.