This isn’t the typical fare for WUWT, but in the spirit of Christmas, I thought this photo was worth sharing. Why, well it made me reflect a bit on the ongoing war – not the war between religions but the war between climate proponents and climate skeptics, which in some ways is like a religious war.
I was walking down Market street in San Francisco last night and spotted these folks out in front of Nordstrom’s. It made me do a double take.
I had just come from a two-hour climate skeptic bashing fest at #AGU15 where Naomi Oreskes and Michael Mann gave slide after slide of vitriol filled notes of why climate skepticism is bad.
I introduced myself to these caroling folks, shook hands with every one, and they were all very nice and wanted to know who I was. They were concerned about how Muslim Americans are being treated given current world events so they came up with this idea of going around to different places in SFO and caroling. Kudos to them for doing so as this little gesture helps break down some of the barriers that fear puts up.
Given what I had just sat through, U13A-02 “If you see something, say something…more” Moscone South 102 14:00-14:20, I could relate to how those Muslim-Americans feel.
There were a couple of bright spots in that session. First, before the session started, Dr. James Hansen sat down in the front row just a couple of chairs away from me. I decided to introduce myself and I got up, and said to him. “Dr. Hansen, you may know me, my name is Anthony Watts, and while we are on opposite sides of the aisle on many things, I just wanted you to know that we both agree on nuclear power“. He was pleasant. Dr. Mann was standing just a few feet away and observed that I had arrived, but I just could not bring myself to do the same for him. Maybe someday.
Second, blogger and science writer David Appell sat down just one chair away from me in the front row, saying (IIRC) “you are Anthony Watts, right?” I said I was, he seated himself then mentioned something about (again IIRC, i didn’t hear it all clearly) “should I grunt?”. This was referencing a tiff we had at AGU some years back where a slide of the WUWT website went up and I thought I heard a “grunt of dissatisfaction” from near me, and attributed it to Appell who was sitting just behind me then. Back then, he went a little over the top for such a simple thing. So, I answered “No comment David” and left it at that.
A few minutes later, I discovered that my hearing assistance device provided by AGU was DOA. And I dared to ask David Appell if he might have any “AA” batteries. To his credit, Appell rummaged through his bag and broke open one of his electronic devices looking for batteries for me. He didn’t find the size I needed, but I did thank him for his effort, and as the session ended, we shook hands and exchanged a cordial “have a good conference”.
The moral of all this? It’s easy to fall into hating/labeling/disrespecting people who differ from you in culture, or just even opinion. Whether you are a Muslim-American or a Climate Skeptic, tribalism often gets in the way of meaningful dialog and makes it easy to label and denounce the other side rather than listen to them. We all do it, and sometimes I’m just as guilty as David Appell or Michael Mann or Naomi Oreskes at getting tribal over things that have been said or done in the past. It’s why I couldn’t bring myself to introduce myself to Dr. Mann.
There’s an epilogue to what happened.
That evening about an hour after I encountered the carolers, I met with the co-producer of this film about Bill Nye the Science Guy, Jason Sussberg who wanted me to be in the film. I figured it was probably just a setup to once again make climate skeptics look bad since Mr. Nye has routinely used the label “climate deniers” in just about anything and everything related to his discussions about climate. Mr. Sussberg was pleasant, informed, and curious, and he assured me that the film was “About Bill Nye, not by Bill Nye” and that he’d offer me the unedited interview video to post on WUWT as a hedge against my worries about being misrepresented in editing.
I’ve decided to appear, and actually have a dialog with Bill Nye, assuming he can overcome his own tribalism. I might even wear this t-shirt that a dear friend recently gave me, it seems apropos.
Wish me luck.
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The Moslem Carolers can indeed rejoice that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, that he lived a sinless life, that he ascended into heaven, and that he will return to judge the earth – as affirmed in the Quran!
Most people don’t know that Islam considers Jesus as the 4th major prophet. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus & Muhammad.
Similarly, few realize that Mohammad said Jesus would return to judge the earth.
Nor do they realize that Mary, mother of Jesus is the most important woman in the Quran–It devotes an entire sura (chapter) to her
Nor do they know that the Prophet Mohammed worked for a woman, who was also his wife.
Thank you for your facts .
Too my you need go no further than the basic philosophy of zionism — that one group which claims god gave them the land to the exclusion of even the indigenous populations of any other sect .
Such a notion is exactly what the very first clause of the very first amendment of the Bill of Rights ruled inadmissible .
Yesterday there was a girl’s choir singing carols and other Christmas songs outside my local supermarket. The audience was the mix of colours you expect in modern urban Australia. Among them, enjoying the songs, were a couple of Muslim women, wearing Hijabs.
Not that I am surprised. I have known a lot of Muslims, and they all seemed to think Christmas was fun and not the least bit scary at all.
This post of typical of your approach and wins you so many admirers. It is why your blog is the most popular and respected sceptic climate science forum. Keep it up
Hear hear
Darn, if the Japanese Americans had only known back in December of 1941. Just organize some Shinto Carolers, and probably FDR wouldn’t have rounded them up into internment camps. The progress of civilization sure is heartening.
Well said AW. I appreciate your efforts here and in carrying the science to the other camp, especially when it results in the science reaching a wider audience like in the Bill Nye documentary.
1.5 billion Muslims in the world and only 50 million of them are Salafists. Very nice to see some of the majority showing their side. The Shia, Druze, Ismali, Sufi and most Sunnis are considered heretics or “not Muslim enough” by the Salafists. Now if we could make the house of Saud stop funding the Salafist schools throughout the world we’d be okay.
Just read where Saudi Arabia is getting together with 33 other Islamic states (but not THE Islamic State…the language is getting a bit tricky) to fight the Islamic State:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-security-idUSKBN0TX2PG20151215
Not a snicker about the fact that the Saudis (and other oil states) have been propagating terror for decades to try to keep it out of their “nations”.
Blowback? Any mention blowback?
I hope you’re right, but there’s something that makes the most violent common denominator carry the day in the mid-East.
Yes.
The civil personal interaction, in a polite social setting, of intellectuals with critically significant differences in views is important because it tends to increase humanizing the parties thus reducing some of the dehumanizing.
Mutually voluntary face to face communication should be increased if at all feasible. When I stopped attending the AGU Fall Meeting I missed that kind of interaction. Maybe I will start going again; probably will.
John
You should bring a photo of Nye in his “Speed Walker” super hero costume for him to autograph. It was his career apex and his most credible performance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e6h4zLC5U8
OMG !! How embarrassing…
His career has gone downhill from there !!
Anthony,
Although it is good that Sussberg promised to give you an unedited video copy of the interview, I think that is not sufficient due diligence on your part for your own protection. You need have him agree that you will also make your own audio recording of the interview on your own device. Trust, OK, but your own backup documention of interview is prudent. That is what Moreno did with the Cook interview in Paris.
John
John there’s a bumper sticker up in my country that reads “trust your fellow man but brand your calves” I think that is the same point you are making.
fossilsage on December 15, 2015 at 11:35 am
– – – – – – –
fossilsage,
I need that bumper sticker. I’ll google around for it.
John
I don’t know if it’s a bumper sticker but “wise as serpents, harmless as doves” comes to mind.
Indeed:
?dl=0
Good for you Anthony! It has always struck me how if you can find a way to engage people that you can illuminate the civility that unites us rather than the vitriol that enrages us. I like that quote from Gandhi “an eye for an eye leaves a world gone blind ” Somehow I don’t think Socrates ever raised his voice and shouted down those he didn’t agree with!
Thank you for being there and reporting for us, Ant’ny. I am grateful for the words and wisdom you bring to my day (cheers to all you mods, contributors, and readers, also). WUWT is an amazing place to take ones cerebral cortex for a jog. I have altered my views on many subjects because someone more knowledgable in a field than I has presented a position that makes more sense. Hopefully, you will be given the opportunity to present some information that may help the less informed. Stay strong, utilize every piece of knowledge at your disposal. Thanks Ant’ny
Anthony,
You are a better man than I am and I am glad for you.
I am a worse man than you are and I am glad for me.
To each his own.
Eugene WR Gallun
” … why climate skepticism is bad …”
Please don’t keep us in suspense. Why is it bad?
“Skepticism or scepticism (see spelling differences) is generally any questioning attitude towards unempirical knowledge or opinions/beliefs stated as facts, or doubt regarding claims that are taken for granted elsewhere.”
This sounds like the definition of a scientist.
I once had a fellow Christian express the wish that I would be “deprogrammed” because they didn’t like what I said…and I could back it up.
What is, is.
(No need for a definition.8-)
I should add to:
“What is, is.”
“…And there is always more to learn.”
Have you ever questioned that belief, Forest?
~ He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.~
(Proverbs 18:13)
Anthony, I love it. You leave little wind in their sails. You hold the upper ground and all know it.
[snip -if you have a point make it, just throwing out a bunch of links to form a guilt by association isn’t going to cut it here -mod]
Good point Anthony…but the number of times I have expressed skeptical views in a friendly or neutral way and been met with sour sarcasm or outright aggression indicates to me that most of the ‘hatred’ is coming one direction!
You’re a bigger man than me. I would sadly be very tribal about it.
The most famous truce of recent times must be the 1914 War Christmas Truce where German and British soldiers left their trenches to venture into no man’s land to exchange gifts, swap souvenirs, play games and sing Christmas carols.
This amazing event was interpreted by many as a spontaneous gesture by the common soldier against war and led to other agreements along the front not to attack at certain times which gave the soldiers some control over their own existence in a spirit of “live and let live”.
Unfortunately it could not completely stop the fighting and the senseless war went on for another 4 years resulting in 17 million people losing their lives. It was also significant that one of the German soldiers opposing the truce was Corporal Adolf Hitler.
But it is also a fact that any fictional script writer will tell you that the basic script format is:
Scenario – Conflict – Resolution
and that humans thrive on conflict and without it Hollywood would not exist. But it does concern me that as with Adolf Hitler and certain sections of society, Hollywood prefers to choose a violent physical conflict and resolution rather than a diplomatic and intellectual one.
I am not sure whether I will ever see a resolution to the Climate War, perhaps my grandchildren will, but in the meantime, may YOU thrive on your conflict but resolve it intellectually with argument of fact and evidence and not with hatred and vilification.
And may I wish you all the overwhelming Christmas message of both Anthony and 1914 British and German soldiers of live and let live and “Peace and good will towards men”.
The resolution to the “Climate War” will come when people realize it really isn’t getting “warmer” or that it is actually a lot better to be warm and alive than frozen stiff.
“Peace and good will towards men” is a misquotation. The original biblical expression is “…Peace to men of good will.” There can be no peace with men of bad will, much as we might like to believe it.
Excellent article. It makes some important points that need to be made, especially for these types of discussions.
Good Luck with the dialogue with Bill Nye, and any others, Anthony. It is a good time as the sand is slipping from beneath their feet and they know that they are need of support from anyone.
I’m not sure about the T-shirt, though. You made some very good points in this article.
It was lucky for the nice Muslim Carolers that they were in San Francisco and not a Country with Sharia Law or they qualify for the apostasy penalty:
Qur’an (4:89) – “They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.”
A few days ago on UK TV, the winner of The Great British Bake Off (Brits know what I am talking about) – a delightful young Muslim lady, suitably head-scarfed, was invited to the ceremony of switching on the Christmas lights in Luton. She carried this out beautifully and the crowd, all races, colours and religions, thoroughly enjoyed joining in the festivities. It was heartwarming. Later in another town, a muslim (I think) mother and father were interviewed and both were delighted that their son of five or six years old had been chosen to play the part of Joseph in the school Nativity Play. I know this isn’t a science posting, but it might let people know that some folks can live together happily even if they believe different things. Of course, religion is a faith whereas the warmist message is … well … a religion!
FWIW, we get The Great British Bake Off here in the colonies.
I recently tweeted :
@BobArmstrong Dec 3 | I grew up in the age of Mr Wizard who unlike the statists’ Nye didn’t tell you what’s true , He showed you what is .
To label David Appell a “science writer” is to further , if possible , damage the term . He trolls and spams my posts wherever they may be . He is so redundant and determinedly ignorant that I even tried to contact George Sterman at Sunny Brook where he apparently got a PhD in physics .
Appell does not reflect well on Sunny Brook’s physics program .
Bob Armstrong
Not would be a debate! Mr Wizard against Bill Nye on basic science. Mr. Wizard would expose Bill Nye for the fool he is.
Eugene WR Gallun
I like the sprit of this…
“Haters male me famous” – funny! 😉 That reminds me of what Reggie Jackson said about people who boo him at baseball games:
“Fans don’t boo nobodies.” Source: Baseball Illustrated (1975)
I guess that make Anthony a somebody. 🙂
I’m not much surprised at Hansen’s reaction. I believe he’s one of the very few in this controversy who is absolutely sincere.
jorgekafkazar
Crazy people can have nice manners. Hansen sincerely believes in crazy nonsense.
Old Death Train Hansen
(always good for a laugh)
More holy than thou
He warns you of Venus
The only thing now
That hardens his penis
He rants at the crowds
A coot with the hypers
His mind in the clouds
A load in his diapers
He quotes from the Greens
“We work for the many!”
(Diversity means
The colors of money!)
He quotes from the Reds
“Consensus is dictum!”
(Good socialists heads
Are all up one rectum!”
A Fascist he cries
This Goebbels of weather
“The truth is in lies
The bigger the better!”
So just like a skunk
His sight is alarming
His science is junk
There’s no global warming
Eugene WR Gallun
Funny – but maybe leave the shirt at home Anthony. You don’t need it.