The most eye-opening thing I’ve seen while at #AGU15 so far – #muslimcarolers

This isn’t the typical fare for WUWT, but in the spirit of Christmas, I thought this photo was worth sharing. Why, well it made me reflect a bit on the ongoing war – not the war between religions but the war between climate proponents and climate skeptics, which in some ways is like a religious war.

I was walking down Market street in San Francisco last night and spotted these folks out in front of Nordstrom’s. It made me do a double take.

muslim-carolers

I had just come from a two-hour climate skeptic bashing fest at #AGU15 where Naomi Oreskes and Michael Mann gave slide after slide of vitriol filled notes of why climate skepticism is bad.

I introduced myself to these caroling folks, shook hands with every one, and they were all very nice and wanted to know who I was. They were concerned about how Muslim Americans are being treated given current world events so they came up with this idea of going around to different places in SFO and caroling. Kudos to them for doing so as this little gesture helps break down some of the barriers that fear puts up.

see-something-say-something

Hansen, Orekses, and Mann, among others at a session titled ” Reticent Researchers! Are We Failing Humanity?”

Given what I had just sat through, U13A-02 “If you see something, say something…more” Moscone South 102 14:00-14:20, I could relate to how those Muslim-Americans feel.

There were a couple of bright spots in that session. First, before the session started, Dr. James Hansen sat down in the front row just a couple of chairs away from me. I decided to introduce myself and I got up, and said to him. “Dr. Hansen, you may know me, my name is Anthony Watts, and while we are on opposite sides of the aisle on many things, I just wanted you to know that we both agree on nuclear power“. He was pleasant. Dr. Mann was standing just a few feet away and observed that I had arrived, but I just could not bring myself to do the same for him. Maybe someday.

Second, blogger and science writer David Appell sat down just one chair away from me in the front row, saying (IIRC)  “you are Anthony Watts, right?” I said I was, he seated himself then mentioned something about (again IIRC, i didn’t hear it all clearly) “should I grunt?”. This was referencing a tiff we had at AGU some years back where a slide of the WUWT website went up and I thought I heard a “grunt of dissatisfaction” from near me, and attributed it to Appell who was sitting just behind me then. Back then, he went a little over the top for such a simple thing. So, I answered “No comment David” and left it at that.

A few minutes later, I discovered that my hearing assistance device provided by AGU was DOA. And I dared to ask David Appell if he might have any “AA” batteries. To his credit, Appell rummaged through his bag and broke open one of his electronic devices looking for batteries for me. He didn’t find the size I needed, but I did thank him for his effort, and as the session ended, we shook hands and exchanged a cordial “have a good conference”.

The moral of all this? It’s easy to fall into hating/labeling/disrespecting people who differ from you in culture, or just even opinion. Whether you are a Muslim-American or a Climate Skeptic, tribalism often gets in the way of meaningful dialog and makes it easy to label and denounce the other side rather than listen to them. We all do it, and sometimes I’m just as guilty as David Appell or Michael Mann or Naomi Oreskes at getting tribal over things that have been said or done in the past. It’s why I couldn’t bring myself to introduce myself to Dr. Mann.

There’s an epilogue to what happened.

That evening about an hour after I encountered the carolers, I met with the co-producer of this film about Bill Nye the Science Guy, Jason Sussberg who wanted me to be in the film. I figured it was probably just a setup to once again make climate skeptics look bad since Mr. Nye has routinely used the label “climate deniers” in just about anything and everything related to his discussions about climate. Mr. Sussberg was pleasant, informed, and curious, and he assured me that the film was “About Bill Nye, not by Bill Nye” and that he’d offer me the unedited interview video to post on WUWT as a hedge against my worries about being misrepresented in editing.

I’ve decided to appear, and actually have a dialog with Bill Nye, assuming he can overcome his own tribalism. I might even wear this t-shirt that a dear friend recently gave me, it seems apropos.

haters-famous-tshirt

Wish me luck.

 

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170 thoughts on “The most eye-opening thing I’ve seen while at #AGU15 so far – #muslimcarolers

  1. …”I’ve decided to appear, and actually have a dialog with Bill Nye”

    Did you just watch “It’s a Wonderful Life” or “Scrooge” or “Charlie Brown’s Christmas”.

    I must say. Your enthusiasm and warmth is oddly infectious.

    • Yes, thanks for being gracious about all this. It is good for these Climate Panickers to meet real scientists – harder to stereotype you after meeting you.
      I hope the Bill Nye film-maker guy watches your take-down of the greenhouse gas experiment, and Nye’s response that it doesn’t matter. That film revealed that Nye does not have scientist bones, just the scientist T-Shirt. You, sir, have scientist bones.

  2. Great post Anthony. The carolers are quite apropos. It is sometimes challenging to be the “bigger man” but almost always worth it.

    • Isaiah 5:20,24 – Some people call evil good, and good evil. They reject the law of God and despise His word. This goes hand in hand with the people who openly hate God. They love to practice things that God says are evil, so they not only don’t want to hear the truth, but the openly resent it.

      These are people who support the UN’s plan to implement 11,000 Holocausts, based on their lies. It makes as much sense to be civil to them as it would have to be civil to a Nazi death camp murderer shoving children into a furnace. They have a choice.

    • I think part of the problem with being civil to the uncivil is that while we say their side is wrong, as in factually incorrect, they say our side is both that kind of wrong, and the moral kind of wrong.

      BTW, I’ve never seen a skeptic with a bullhorn. Has anyone?

  3. I don’t think I’d go anywhere near Bill Nye were I you. I think you should listen to your initial instinct, that “it was probably just a setup to once again make (a) climate skeptic look bad” and that skeptic would be you.

  4. Great post as always Anthony. I would like to LIKE it on Facebook but WordPress keeps trying to change my home page…very irritating !

  5. Good for you. I do hope the Nye movie is objective, that would be interesting. BTW, will you post a summary of the Oreskes and Mann talk? I would really like to know what they are saying about us. I recently attended an AAAS sponsored training session on talking about climate. No one knew I was a skeptic and I got to hear some unfiltered comments about ‘the opposition’. Wondering what ammo the ‘big guns’ fire.

  6. There is no such thing as a Muslim-American. There are Muslims who live in America though. Atheists sing carols too but no-one makes a fuss and they don’t feel the need to carry labels, even though no atheist will ever make president.

    • When I worked in a government office our carolers were led by an agnostic (me) and a Jewish man. Some of us can put aside our ideologies and have a bit of fun, but its becoming more rare.

      • Sorry, but islam is in a class all by itself. Muslims are mandated by their religion to take over the world and turn it into a world ruled by sharia law. Islam is totally incompatible with the US Constitution. Mohammad, according to islams own holy books, was a mass murderer, a child rapist, a sex slave trader, a beheader and a torturer. What kind of person has such an evil man for their religious prophet? Either these people Anthony encountered don’t know a thing about their own religion or they are being disingenuous. Perhaps some lessons on islam from Mark Steyn are in order.

      • When Muslims stop being violent (frowns/head shakes permitted) about pages being torn from their “book” or pics of their “prophet” then I might believe that there has been progress.

    • vlparker December 15, 2015 at 3:32 pm

      Islam is totally incompatible with the US Constitution.

      That’s correct. See Separation Of Church And State by Dr. Jaafar Sheikh Idris.

      Islam cannot be separated from the state because it guides Muslims through every detail of running the state and their lives.
      […]
      No Muslim could become president in a secular regime, for in order to pledge loyalty to the constitution, a Muslim would have to abandon part of his belief and embrace the belief of secularism — which is practically another religion.
      […]
      Separation of religion and state is not an option for Muslims because is requires us to abandon God’s decree for that of a man.

      Indeed, this stance is clearly against the First Amendment.

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

      I should add, that a Muslim not only can’t become a president of the US, but can’t even join any one of the Uniformed services of the United States, because that would require an oath containing the words

      I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

      The seven uniformed services are, in order of precedence by ceremonial formation:
      1. United States Army
      2. United States Marine Corps
      3. United States Navy
      4. United States Air Force
      5. United States Coast Guard
      6. United States Public Health Service Commissioned Corps
      7. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Officer Corps

      I wonder what’s the actual state of affairs. Probably not encouraging, much less legitimate, because in 2011 there were approximately 3500 American Muslims serving in the United States military. How could they take an oath like that without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion to an ungodly thing like the US Constitution and still claim to be Muslim?

      • Berényi Péter:

        You ask:

        How could they take an oath like that without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion to an ungodly thing like the US Constitution and still claim to be Muslim?

        A Muslim has exactly the same ability to take that oath as e.g. a Christian.

        And your assertion about the oath of the US military is similar: as quoted by you it contains nothing that would be problematic to a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. Indeed, you admit that in 2011 there were ~3,500 Muslim members of the US military.

        Richard

      • I dunno, maybe these Muslims are like my aunt, who calls herself a Christian, begged me to ensure my son was baptized, but hasn’t been inside a church except for weddings, funerals and maybe Christmas and Easter for decades. In other words, a MINO (Muslim in Name Only). Or perhaps there are secular Muslims like there are secular Jews.

        As an agnostic, I find them all hypocrites.

        BTW, is this really a thing:

        “7. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Officer Corps”

        I mean, I used to be called a Statistics Officer, and I designed my own little uniform complete with a hat that had the “scrambled eggs” on it, but eventually they reclassified the title down to “Information Analyst”, which doesn’t beg for a uniform.

      • Exactly right. They cannot pledge fealty to islam and the US Constitution because they are 180 degrees out of phase. As you say, in islam there is no separation of mosque and state. Islam DEMANDS that muslims instill a muslim government wherever they go. Do all people who consider themselves muslims take this seriously? No, of course not. But you don’t get to have your own version of islam separate from Mohammad’s. He invented it. It is what he said it was. If you call yourself a Christian (I’m a Deist), but say you don’t believe in the resurrection and virgin birth, then you are not really a Christian. If you call yourself a muslim, but you don’t believe in Mohammad’s version, then you’re not really a muslim.

        In islam there are two sections of the world; Dar al islam (house of islam) and Dar al harb ( house of war). A muslim either lives in an islamic country controlled by sharia law or he lives in a war zone, and it will continue to be a war zone until islam rules. That’s islamic doctrine as founded by Mohammad. We can either face reality or stick our PC heads in the sand and go the way of Europe.

      • @ Bob Armstrong

        “You cannot pledge fealty to zionism and the US Constitution , either ”

        Irrelevant. There is nothing in Judaism that mandates Jews conquer the world and subjugate unbelievers.

      • There is no such country as Palestine. There has never been a country of Palestine, or Palestinian Arabs who are of a different ethnicity than other Arabs in the Middle East. They are Hashemite Arabs just like the Jordanians. Furthermore, what are now ridiculously called the ‘occupied territories’ were part of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years until the end of WW I. It was occupied for hundreds of years by Arab muslims, Arab Christians and Jews. The Ottomans lost the war and the Allies split up the territory that was lost. The land where Israel now lies was given to the Jews as part of the League of Nation’s British Mandate. The Hashemite Arabs who now call themselves ‘Palestinian’ have no legal claim to the land.

        What Israel actually is – a democracy where muslims are allowed to vote and be elected to the Knesset.

      • @Berényi Péter and @vlparker,

        Your remarks are laughable. You been drinkin’ the Pam Geller/Daniel Pipes/Steve Emerson/Frank Gaffney kool-aid.

        Colonel Pat Lang writes at http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/ (always scroll down past the initial green-background blurb for his own books to see the most recent post). Before any knee-jerk response to my comment, I’d suggest you skim Colonel Lang’s CV: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/files/completecv-67.pdf. Some of you may have seen him on FOXABCNBCMSNBC over the years. The majority of people asked to guest post on his site are senior ex-Military Intel. Richard Sale is one exception; he was UPI’s top Intel Correspondent before he retired.

        Lang was worldwide Director for HUMINT for the DIA and all the military forces, among other things, and created the Arabic language and culture courses, and training, for ME-bound troops at the United States Military Academy, West Point. He taught a course about what Islam isn’t—he republishes the PowerPoint slides occasionally—which the two of you could benefit from. Jesus is one of Islam’s prophets. Islam does not have a hierarchical priestcraft dictating what you should believe, like Christianity or Judaism. Instead, they have scholars and clerics who write their own opinions. You can take ‘em, or leave ‘em. Islam is the relationship between an adherent and the book, The Koran. Lang is a practicing Roman Catholic.

        Lang reprinted “An ‘Alid Christmas in Amman – reposted 13 December 2015” last Sunday. It’s short:

        It was snowing heavily in Alexandria, Virginia when I first wrote. The moment reminded me of the time in the ’80s when I was in Jerusalem and Amman on government business at Christmas time. It had snowed heavily there as well, an unusual but not unknown event. People were trying to cope with the white, slippery stuff. In Amman I was staying at a very modern hotel with a large circular atrium that went way up into the distant heights surrounded by the balconies that led to bedrooms. The coffee shop was tiered around the well of the atrium. I think the hotel was the Marriott. I arrived at night. In the morning I went down to the lobby to meet the Jordanian Army driver who was to take me to army headquarters. An enormous, decorated Christmas tree filled the atrium. It must have been fifty feet tall. It looked a lot like the tree in the picture. After looking at it for a bit I went to the Qiyada. Among the people I met with there was His Highness, Field Marshal Zeid bin Shaker, Commander in Chief of the Jordanian Army (al-jaysh al-‘arabi). When we had finished our business, I told him what I had seen in the hotel. He said he must see it. We got into his car and drove back to the hotel so that he could.

        The hotel had covered the tree with star shaped ornaments each inscribed with the name of one of its staff. There were stars with names of all kinds. There were; Marys, Gunters, Muhammads, Seans, Josephs, Ahmads, ‘Issas, Pierres, Ivans, Abdullahs, Muhsins, etc. There were hundreds of names.

        The prince and I sat at the foot of the tree, drank coffee and chatted. He sent for the manager of the hotel to tell him what a good idea the tree was. His bedouin soldier driver sat a couple of tables away staring at the tree.

        Zeid bin Shaker was one of nature’s noblemen. He was also an ‘Alid, a descendent of the Prophet, a Hashemite cousin of King Hussein, and a Muslim gentleman.

        God rest you, merry gentleman. pl

        As for the Sharia Law nonsense—listening to scare tactics about this is like listening to Naomi Klein on Global Warming—I direct you to the Religion Editor, Bob Smietana, for The Tennessean , who wrote an investigative series in October 2010 called, Anti-Muslim crusaders make millions spreading fear. On page 5, Brannon Wheeler, history professor and director of the Center for Middle East and Islamic Studies at the United States Naval Academy, said critics of Islam mistakenly assume that Shariah law is a set of fixed principles that apply to every Muslim, everywhere.

        “There’s no text that is entitled The Shariah,” Wheeler said. “It’s not a code of law. It’s not like you could go to the library and get the 12 volumes of Shariah law.”

        Instead, Shariah is flexible, and applies differently in different contexts. It comes from clerics’ and scholars’ interpretations of the Quran and other holy books.

        Wheeler also had harsh words for Gaffney’s report [Trump’s recent source], which claims Shariah is an imminent threat to America.

        “He makes the Shariah look absurd and insidious by trolling through and finding outrageous rulings and then making them universal for all time,” Wheeler said. “It’s ridiculous.”

        Janice Moore published a brilliant C.S. Lewis quote the other day—didn’t capture the link—about fear. It applies here.

      • @vlparker

        What a crock:

        There is no such country as Palestine. There has never been a country of Palestine, or Palestinian Arabs who are of a different ethnicity than other Arabs in the Middle East.

        Here are the maps of Palestine that predate 1948, many from the 19th C:

        “Reference Map of Palestine showing Political Divisions at time of Christ”

        The Century Atlas of the World Prepared under the Superintendence of Benjamin E. Smith, A.M.,
        Managing Editor of the Century Dictionary, Editor of the Century Cyclopedia of Names, Fellow of the American Geographic Society, Etc. Published by The Century Co., New York, 1900.
        “Map of Boundaries of Districts in Roman Times”

        “Map of The Assyrian Empire and the Region about the Eastern Mediterranean, 750-625 B.C. – PALESTINE”

        “Map of Ancient Palestine 1851.” Drawn and Engraved by Rupkin, Published by Tallis & Co. London.
        http://www.gilai.com/product_1077/Map-of-Ancient-Palestine-1851.-Drawn-and-Engraved-by-Rupkin–Published-by-Tallis-and-Co.-London.

        “1862 Johnson Map of Palestine”
        http://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/Palestine-johnson-1864

        “Detail Map Of Palestine Before al-Nakba signed by Moshe Dyan”
        http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story582.html

        “Map of First Jewish Colony in Palestine 1878”
        http://www.passia.org/images/pal_facts_MAPS/pdf/firstzionistcolonyinpalestine_1878.pdf

        “Map of Palestine 1917”

        “UK National Archives: proposed post-war distribution of territory (1918)”

        “PDF of the UK National Archives images in their Maps in Time collection”
        http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/documents/maps-in-time.pdf

      • @vlparker

        Another statement that ignores the historical documented record:

        “The land where Israel now lies was given to the Jews as part of the League of Nation’s British Mandate.”

        No, it wasn’t. Here is the salient British Mandate Document from the The Avalon Project at the Lillian Goldman Law Library at Yale University, http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1939.asp:

        [T]he Royal Commission, His Majesty’s Government believe that the framers of the Mandate in which the Balfour Declaration was embodied could not have intended that Palestine should be converted into a Jewish State against the will of the Arab population of the country. That Palestine was not to be converted into a Jewish State might be held to be implied in the passage from the Command Paper of 1922 which reads as follows

        Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used such as that `Palestine is to become as Jewish as England is English.’ His Majesty’s Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated …. the disappearance or the subordination of the Arabic population, language or culture in Palestine. They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the (Balfour) Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded IN PALESTINE.” [All Caps in original]

        But this statement has not removed doubts, and His Majesty’s Government therefore now declare unequivocally that it is not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State. They would indeed regard it as contrary to their obligations to the Arabs under the Mandate, as well as to the assurances which have been given to the Arab people in the past, that the Arab population of Palestine should be made the subjects of a Jewish State against their will.

      • MRW December 18, 2015 at 6:29 pm
        @Berényi Péter and @vlparker,

        Islam does not have a hierarchical priestcraft dictating what you should believe, like Christianity or Judaism. Instead, they have scholars and clerics who write their own opinions. You can take ‘em, or leave ‘em.

        Show me the work of any one Muslim scholar or cleric, who declares
        1. Separation of church and state (or, as it were, separation of mosque and state) is advisable or even possible.
        2. There should be two separate spheres, private and public, with well maintained boundary between them.
        3. In the public sphere freedom of expression rulez, it’s none of the state’s business to curtail it.
        4. The private sphere is protected, unhampered by interventions from governmental or other institutions.
        5. It should be possible for a Muslim to leave her (his) religion without threats to her (his) life.
        6. Peace treaties, previously signed by Muslim powers, abandoning Muslim land (Dar al-Islam) have legal binding power.
        note: such as the Treaty of Granada, signed on 25 November 1491, the Treaty of Karlowitz, signed on 26 January 1699 or the Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty, signed on 26 March 1979.

        It never pays to claim untrue statements, does it?

        Muslim population in present day Turkey, a hundred years ago, in 1914 was 80.9% (with 19.1% non Muslim). Even after the extermination of Armenian christians and expulsion of Greeks, in 1927 it was 97.5%. With the abolishment of Caliphate on 3 March 1924, Turkey became a secular state. Still, according to the CIA World Factbook, present day Muslim population is 99.8%, that is, proportion of non Muslims decreased to one twelfth of its previous value under a secular government. What is more, there are no such categories as none, unspecified or unaffiliated, that make up 30-40% of the population in a typical European country, only other (Jewish or Christian) at 0.2%.

        Please, explain that.

        note: There is no hierarchical priestcraft in Judaism at all and there is no such thing in many branches of Christianity either. In any case, even if a hierarchy exists, it embraces religious liberty fully.

      • Yeah, I just imagined 9-11, Paris, San Bernardino and the 27,000 plus other jihad murders that have occurred throughout the world since 9-11 that are documented at thereligionofpeace.com.

        That sharia law is a crock. We all know that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the rest of the muslim world are just bastions of liberty.

        I would post the pics here but they may not go over well with Anthony so I’ll provide a link instead.

        http://www.barenakedislam.com/page/2/

        I never said a place called Palestine didn’t exist. I said there was never a COUNTRY of Palestine.

        http://www.meforum.org/3273/palestinian-founding-national-myths

        Following are excerpts from an address by Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad, aired by Al-Hekma TV on March 23, 2012. He admits the Palestinians are not a separate people from Arabs.

        […] Thus, the conspiracy is very clear. Al-Aqsa and the land of Palestine represent the spearhead for Islam and for the Muslims. Therefore, when we seek the help of our Arab brothers, we are not seeking their help in order to eat, to live, to drink, to dress, or to live a life of luxury. No. When we seek their help, it is in order to continue to wage Jihad.

        […]

        Allah be praised, we all have Arab roots, and every Palestinian, in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots – whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. We have blood ties. So where is your affection and mercy?

        […]

        Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called Al-Masri [“Egyptian”]. Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis.

        Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called Al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims. We are a part of you….

        …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

        Zahir Muhsein, a member of the PLO executive committee: “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.”

        …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

        http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/111632/voices-palestine-haj-amin-al-husseini-frontpagemagcom

      • @Berényi Péter,

        With all respect to you, you want me to quote some Iman or scholar that counters what you say? OK. So what sect of Islam are you referring to…who does that scholar favor? There are thousands of them. One quarter of the world’s population are Muslim. Ditto Christian.

        There are as many whack-job Muslim sects as there are Christian (snake-wavers, talking in tongues, locking kids in chains to invoke God like that fractious group in Michigan). So who are you asking me to counter, is it an isolated hermit with a publishing platform? It appeared that way to me. In Islam, the sects are not monolithic, nor representative. I need you to define yourself before I can answer intelligently.

        I think you need to broaden the definition of what you’re talking about before we can have a meaningful conversation. I prefer military definitions, my weakness: DISCLAIMER (how I am). I don’t like knee-jerk emotional responses to threats. I prefer factual clarity, and understatement. I am congenitally incapable of getting nutz when threatened—and it *has* happened with both guns and knives—or told that I should be afraid of some big bad boogieman. Been that way since I was three. Reason I survived a brutal, truly sadistic father…or as a shrink I was forced to talk to said to me: “I’ve had people like you locked up for 10 years like this [wrapped his arms around his body] who’ve been through a quarter of what you’ve been through? What are you made of?”

        So I would prefer if you came back to me and ask me these questions when you’ve read these. Please be sure to read the comments on all Pat Lang posts. In case you missed my prior explanation, Pat Lang created the Arabic language and culture courses for the US Military schools 40 years ago, and served as Military Liaison for the DIA in the Middle East:

        “PPT on Islamic Religion and Arab Culture – W. Patrick Lang – Reposted 8 April 2015”
        http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/04/ppt-on-islamic-religion-and-arab-culture-w-patrick-lang.html

        Pat Lang explaining Caliphates, skim the comments:
        http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/06/khilafa-the-sunni-caliphate.html

        Do you know the history of modern Turkey, Peter?
        http://lostislamichistory.com/how-ataturk-made-turkey-secular/

        And BTW, the Queen of England is the Head of State of Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and the other constitutional monarchies I don’t remember she’ s Head of. She’s also the *Head of the Church of England*, which makes the Church of England the official religion of those countries, no matter the religious liberties granted. So much for separation of church and state. You can’t conflate the creation of the USA under that rubric.

      • vlparker December 19, 2015 at 7:17 pm

        @Fathi Hammad: Therefore, when we seek the help of our Arab brothers, we are not seeking their help in order to eat, to live, to drink, to dress, or to live a life of luxury. No. When we seek their help, it is in order to continue to wage Jihad.

        Yeah, like Black September. Subsequently PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization), expelled to Lebanon, destroyed that splendid country. It pays to support them handsomely, does it?

      • MRW December 20, 2015 at 4:24 pm

        With all respect to you, you want me to quote some Iman or scholar that counters what you say? OK. So what sect of Islam are you referring to…

        Any sect of your choice, as long as it relies on the Quran and Hadith and based on them promotes separation of mosque and state, separation of private and public spheres, freedom of expression, freedom of choice, protection of privacy, an international law independent of religion with lasting and legally binding peace treaties instead of a temporary armistice, suchlike.

        Nothing complicated, just simple truths we all hold to be self-evident, except Muslims.

        To my knowledge it’s Ahmadiyya which comes closest, although not quite there yet. Unfortunately they are only a small minority inside Islam, are considered heretics, even kafir by most, and often suffer persecution.

      • MRW December 20, 2015 at 4:24 pm

        And BTW, the Queen of England is the Head of State of Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and the other constitutional monarchies I don’t remember she’ s Head of. She’s also the *Head of the Church of England*, which makes the Church of England the official religion of those countries, no matter the religious liberties granted. So much for separation of church and state.

        Yeah, it’s a shame. Even more so because of a political role granted to Lords Spiritual. I guess that’s the British way to handle such issues, weird but efficient in the sense it rather promotes freedom than hinders it, somehow.

        Like Sir John Lawrence, Viceroy and Governor-General of India later, who, as Commissioner of the Jullundur district, Punjab during the First Sikh War in 1846 told the local elite that Punjabis could no longer burn their widows, commit female infanticide, nor bury their lepers alive.

        When they protested, saying that he had promised there would be no interference in their religious customs, Lawrence steadfastly replied that it was British religious custom to hang anyone who did such things.

  7. I recall that Steve McIntyre once tried to offer a polite greeting with Dr. Mann but was just snubbed and ignored. Perhaps best left alone.

  8. Somewhere deep within the twisted, dark soul of the Warmist lies a human being. It’s just that they don’t let him out very often. Too inconvenient.

    • I don’t think Dr. Hansen is twisted in that particular direction. He’s just wrong and believes he’s right.

      • I think Hansen’s claims about Venus being a “runaway” Green House effect are so patently demonstrably absurd that he cannot be honest . Altho , I think the failure of the “climate science” community to immediately ridicule him into obscurity or demand he demonstrate the physics shows a far greater failing .

  9. Strange… Any Muslim caught observing a Christian tenet, in a country under sharia law, would be stoned to death. I guess we can overlook such glaring contradiction at a warmist love fest. GK

    • You said it buddy, try doing a little Christmas caroling in a Muslim country and see where it gets you, a beating from the sharia police at best (Saudi Arabia) or a tire around your neck filled with gasoline and death by immolation at worst (Nigeria)
      This namby pamby lets all hold hands, drink a coke and sing Kumbaya, in the face of this ultra right wing, ultra conservative, repressive, mysoginist, homophobic, totalitarian religious fascism will be the death of us all.
      JIhad is the central tenet of Islam, conquest by jihad and these carolers are the ones that misunderstand Islam not groups like Isis.

  10. Good for you Andrew. One of the most powerful weapons in our arsenal, along with a sense of humour, is that we do not hate the other side. Yes, they can be annoying and people like Lew, Cook and Mann behave very badly; but sceptics tend to be happy warriors. Partially because we are much more humble in our assertions. We know that we do not have all the answers.

    • I wish I shared your sentiment Jay, but I see more and more angry commenters every day, on this very message board. It’s not nearly to the extent that I have seen on the alarmist side, and it’s users instead of moderators, but it’s there, and it’s growing.

      (Reply: Are you suggesting the censoring of comments? If so, where would you draw the line? This site allows comments of a scientific nature that are generally on topic. Most commenters are given wide latitude to post their point of view. It is a policy that has resulted in WUWT attracting more comments and more site traffic than all alarmist blogs combined. If you propose to improve it, please don’t suggest censoring reader comments except in extreme cases. -mod)

      • benofhouston – one of the first lessons taught in negotiating courses is not to get angry. Getting angry and making nasty comments just makes the negotiating more difficult. You can say you won’t negotiate with “these” people, but we are always negotiating something. As a contractor, an engineer, and as an owner’s representative, contractor’s representative and a consultant, I soon discovered I was always negotiating something. Insulting someone, their intelligence or opinion seldom furthers a satisfactory discussion (unless you were bound for court in any case and the only winners there are usually the lawyers). I have found the good guy/bad guy scenario useful and it was taught at negotiating seminars. However, I often saw my sometimes opponents at the same seminars. Nevertheless the badazz, angry, crazy guy getting calmed down by his partner(s) in negotiation does sometimes work very well.

        So, to ALL those angry, frustrated people out there, take a breath … and Merry Christmas.

        We could all do with a little less anger and a little more humour and humility. Not sure where I put mine though.

        Antimony (sp) has it right. Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

        And if you think you are upset, you should try watching the two or three times hourly Prime Time TV commercials in Alberta telling the population how we are all going to be saved from certain death by the “New Democratic Party” in power shutting down all the Coal Fired Power Plants in the province.

        Here is an excerpt from a letter I received recently as a result of a letter to the government on a certain policy with which I don’t agree:

        Thank you for your feedback regarding residential solar panels in the fall and wintertime. Sorry to hear that solar panels are not working for you and your farm house.

        Alberta is phasing out coal-fired electricity generation by 2030 and replacing that with renewable energy and natural gas-fired electricity, or by using technology to produce zero pollution. This requires incentives to build generation capacity so that renewable sources like wind and solar will account for up to 30 per cent of electricity generation.

        In three and a half years, I hope the electorate fixes the problem they created. If not, well, I can always move.

        To quote George Canyon, “It’s a good day to ride”. It was and I did. Life is to short to be angry all the time (except when it may help you with a negotiation )

        Have a great day.

      • Moderator, perhaps I mispoke. I was referring to the LACK of moderator censorship on this site, compared to others, such as Realclimate, which I know are heavily censored. This is an important distinction, as people can be ignored, but there is no hope if contrarians are not allowed to speak. I certainly meant no offense against your policies, which are more than fair.

        The issue I have is with the people who treat every contrary viewpoint as an affront, attacking those who disagree, however slightly, with vitrol. It is a problem and it is growing. I do know that censorship is not the way to stop it, but we seem to be losing the “Not Evil Just Wrong” mentality over time, and I don’t like it.

      • Ben thanks for your comments. We walk a fine line here, and not a day goes by that I and the moderation team doesn’t wrestle with whether to allow or snip borderline or over-the-top comments made in threads. The policy has been mostly successful, and the numbers here compared to other sites speak for themselves.

        That said, we have noticed a concentrated effort by a handful of zealots who make comments under false pretenses, and who shape-shift at will to try to get around moderation. I suspect these are paid shills, likely from environmental NGO’s that think they can disrupt the site by their efforts. There seems to be no scruples, and many of these people who should be rational adults, act like children in the way they respond. Miriam O’Brien of Mount Beauty Australia, aka “Sou” / “hotwhopper” is a perfect example of this sort of childish hateful behavior in an otherwise sensible adult.

        The best we can do is let other commenters call them out, and to continue with our successful policy. And, I do have a plan, working with the folks at wordpress.com to solve this for the long term.

  11. You still don’t realise it yet: there is no ‘war’ as far as global warming is concerned. There are the facts, which have recently (in Paris) helped to determine the world’s response; and there are the opinions and beliefs of those who don’t want to accept reality. Which side are you and your followers on?

    • You are confused. What they did in Paris had absolutely nothing to do with either facts or science. It was merely a political exercise, pretending to respond to what is in fact, a non-problem.
      “Our side” is merely concerned with the actual facts and science of climate. But no worries; you Climate Liars always get that wrong.

      • Murph, we aren’t the sorority type. We are on the side of truth. We don’t have it all but we are warriors against what it isn’t truth. Sometimes we can be wrong of course, but enough times we can skewer what is bad science and even fraudulent agenda science. In this, we do make a difference. Of course, we aren’t like you, we have the easy job. We don’t have to propose anything, just be watchful for illegitimate claims being slipped by. You have the terrible burden of proof as your master.

    • Is it indeed a fact that CO2 is a simple little knob which controls the earths temperature so directly that we can legislate the future climate with a 0.5 degree accuracy? Wow, please post your source of this reality!

    • Murph, we aren’t the sorority type. We are on the side of truth. We don’t have it all but we are warriors against what it isn’t truth. Sometimes we can be wrong of course, but enough times we can skewer what is bad science and even fraudulent agenda science. In this, we do make a difference. Of course, we aren’t like you, we have the easy job. We don’t have to propose anything, just be watchful for illegitimate claims being slipped by. You have the terrible burden of proof as your master.

    • I apologize for being concerned about all the people who will be negatively affected or forced into continued poverty by your political decisions based on overestimates of the effects of a minor variable on a poorly understood system.

      In short, there is one thing that is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt. If these actions are taken to “combat climate change” it will be extremely costly. That money isn’t going to come from thin air. It is going to come from the wealth of our peoples, especially burdening the poorest by denying them reliable electrical power. As the number one cause of shortened life by far is poverty, this also means that a lot of people will die due to these actions. So I apologize for being concerned that such actions are being taken on shaky principles for gains that are negligible at best.

    • “Which side are you and your followers on?”

      I am on the side of facts. The Paris conference was about belief in predictions and the men that make the computer programs that make the predictions.

      • Well, Nostradamus was French, after all, and proves the human desire for “belief in predictions”… That is exactly what the political class was supplying in Paris.

    • Like the fact that there has been no warming for almost 20 years?
      Or the fact that CO2 and temperature have never tracked in the historical and proxy records?

      • Yea, well, we are having yet another rare and exciting event. There’s a 6 foot high snow drift piled up against the back door. It’s 17 f and 30mph winds. If that doesn’t prove global warming I don’t know what does.

      • (Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on writing 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name, many of them quite long, are wasted because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)

      • *disclaimer to trolls*
        Obviously both rishrac’s snow drift, and Busterbrown’s Harley warmth are local weather events, and neither one of them proves anything about the climate of the globe outside of the fact that the weather on it is never the same. Perhaps they just forgot to use their sarc tags, which sadly seem to be required these days?

        (Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on writing 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name, many of them quite long, are wasted because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)

      • (Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on writing 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name, many of them quite long, are wasted because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)

    • I find it fascinating that JMurphy decides that those of us who happen to agree with Anthony on this issue, must be “followers” of his.

      Another example of projection I guess.

    • JMurphy
      In case you haven’t heard there are two yes two on going congressional investigations in regards to global warming proponents. That is reality.
      As to what side we are on, well the side that does not adjust historical temperature records. Like your side for instance. The side that does not change the data coming from modern ocean temperature buoys. Like your side. The side that does not drive academicians from their employment because they put forth differing theories. Like your side. The side that does not attempt to use the courts to gag the free speech rights of their fellow citizens who question the validity of a hypothesis. Like your side does.

      At this time your side represents all of the traits reprehensible to a free and open society.
      What side do you want to be on?

      Oh and yes we here accept reality. We just don’t accept your flawed incoherent view. But we are still willing to continue the conversation with you.
      michael

    • “There are the facts”

      Right, like that GIA was not accounted well when estimating Antarctic ice gain, or that surface and satellite records are not in agreement.

    • JMurphy: Maybe you could explain the reasons behind this FACT for me: Since 2001, the net effect of CO2 doubling estimated by climate scientists has come down from about 4 degrees Celsius to 2 degrees Celsius – getting perilously close to the skeptics’ best estimate of 1 degree Celsius. Given that the science is “settled” I find this hard to understand. Please explain.

      You can see the chart here: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/12/12/america-we-have-a-problem/

    • The world’s response in Paris to “the facts” was an empty vessel tarted up to look like it contained something deliverable. It didn’t. It isn’t. But a lot of expensive wine and food was consumed by the usual suspects who attend these events with an expense account.

      Most countries signing off on this (optional) agreement can offer little contribution to abate sources of future rising levels of greenhouse gases. The few nations with that potential will do so only to the extent they would do so, anyway, as they rationally perceive their own benefit. And when they damn well feel like it.

      None of these nations lies in Europe or the Americas, so what governments of nations in those locales may have agreed to do is pretty much brazen marketing eyewash for press consumption.

      The US and China each produce the largest (about 16) percent of total world GDP, but China emits several times as much carbon output to match that US GDP — with more new coal plants coming on like gangbusters every year.

      Eventually that trend will slow — but only and exactly when the Party elites decide it’s in the best interest of the country (a few decades hence). Meanwhile, other nations and their greens can pound sand.

      There is no nation (or collection of nations) on the planet which can make up for the present or forecast future carbon output in China, a trend which will not end for decades. The math won’t work as a practical matter because no developed country would dare send its people back to the stone age to help enable another nation to emerge from the stone age while global carbon emissions are held steady or falling.

      Nevertheless, a few manufacturers will make a tidy fortune selling “We Saved The World at Paris” T-shirts to the politically naive. So it wasn’t an entirely fruitless event.

    • We are on the side that recognizes the facts; there is no meaningful connection between warming/climate change and CO2. Paris was a farce thankfully producing no meaningful response to CO2 emissions. We accept the reality.

    • JMurphy,

      Don’t just say there are “facts”. Post those “facts”!

      Make sure your “facts” are verifiable, measurable, and that they quantify the fraction of man-made global warming, out of natural global warming from all sources.

      That’s not asking much, is it?

      • No indeed. And he should also remember that model results are not facts either. I think it was Nigel Lawson who said a warmist once told him he was denying the evidence of the models. Duh!

    • “Those who don’t want to accept reality.”
      The “reality” revealed in Paris is the fact that greed, envy and the lust for power is still alive and well in the world.

    • Your side wants to stop fossil fuels why you happily surf the net powered by a computer and the electricity provided by those. (cheaply I might add). If those same sources would be provided to the poorer people on this planet they might just stop using dung and wood ( and get rid of having to breath the smoke) they would have a chance at better agriculture and the internet to educate themselves. But that seems to be a non priority for the 35,000 that lavished themselves in Paris these past few weeks. It is now nothing but politics if you haven’t noticed. Do you really think China is going to abide by these phony “Agreements”?

  12. Good for you Anthony! It just proves that those who do not believe in AGW , can have a civil discussion with those that do believe in AGW. Very much like the Muslim Carol singers who can accept our faith, as we accept their non-violent faith. There is I hope, hope!

  13. JMurphy – exactly what “fact” did the 40,000 people in Paris base anything on? The 97% “fact”? The hockey-stick “fact”. The planet is warming up by 1.5 degrees C “fact”? No facts were in evidence. How about the actual fact that the planet has not warmed in almost 19 years? Now that is a fact and was not discussed at all. And many other actual facts that contradict anything discussed in Paris.

  14. A wonderful post in the Season’s mode. I’m especially pleased by your find of Muslim carolers. Actually, I delight in the gutsy stuff that has become too rare in all areas of our culture and affairs. Very nervy and certainly a risky thing to do for these folks. I admit to being well tribalized in this sphere, although I have a very dear colleague whom I somehow don’t see as in this we-they category. I’m going to work harder at getting rid of broadband categorization of the tribal kind after this. Thank you Anthony. You, of course, are a template for the gutsy stuff I refer to. Your kindly, fair demeanor has made you an intersection point with the other side of the climate front, too. Its hard to cast a guy like you in the evil light once they meet you and you have revealed some nice things about our climate change adversaries. I’ve waxed strongly about the wonderful education I’ve received at this site. Hey, it can make you a better person, too, it turns out. What’s not to like?

  15. Bill Nye. An individual who utilized props such as a bow tie and some fluorescent colored beaker experiments on a kids show to gain “scientific” notoriety. Its a head scratching decision to “debate” such a clown simply because he isn’t worthy or relevant in this arena.

  16. Difficult but necessary to maintain your own emotional balance in the heat of current events.

    Our national conversation has become much sharper at the edges. Not surprised to find real concern among those feeling it the most.

  17. Quote: the war between climate proponents and climate skeptics

    Some added precision is warranted here. I’m not aware of anybody who is sceptical of the concept of climate. Unlike people sceptical of the concept of race, I simply don’t remember anybody saying that there is no such thing as climate.

    There are some who are sceptical of claims that the earth is about to become uninhabitable or that Bondi Beach will be 100m underwater by the end of the century. Those people are called scientists.

    The same must be said for the concept of a climate proponent. Again I simply don’t remember anybody mounting the proposition it is high time there should be a climate.

    I realise I am being pedantic, but I think it is important not to use misleading shorthand terms like climate sceptic. Alarmist propaganda thrives in a lack of precise definition. It will take at least a generation before the good name of science is restored from the damage done by unscientific alarmism. Precise terminology by those who use the scientific method can only help.

    • I agree with what you are saying, but keep in mind, global climate is a abstract intellectual construct. It’s total reality is difficult to measure or even discern. GK

      • Quite so GK. On numerous occasions I have asked for information on how the climate of various locations has changed in the last 30 years. What was the climate then and what is the climate now. Almost invariably the answer is that the whole world has warmed. The only specific answers were that the wet season was late in Far North Queensland this year and that the declared fire season in NSW was earlier.

        The global climate idea is simply a meaningless and unverifiable calculation which makes it ideal for propaganda purposes.

      • I agree, Forest, the terms you mentioned are simply not rational, and using them without a ‘so called’ or some other form of qualifier is playing into the “CO2 alarmist” hand, it seems to me.

      • I don’t really know if this is right or wrong, but following on from the above comments this is an excerpt from a note I wrote to my children/grandchildren:

        “Climate is not like weather, and global weather is not like regional weather anymore than regional climate reflects global climate. Actually “global climate” is a myth, it’s a political construct, not science. In science, the world has always been divided into regional and sub-regional climatic zones. There is no such thing as Global Climate or Global Warming because that is all just an “averaging” of regional affects which in the end, is totally meaningless.”

        That is just my opinion, but it is one that I think I was formed at University when studying meteorology for long forgotten air and water pollution courses.

  18. Anthony, your courtesy, balance, tolerance and above all honesty does you and the cause of true science much credit. Thanks. From 1995 to 2000 I was Principal of Edwardes College at the University of Peshawar (NW Pakistan). Each Christmas I hosted a party in the Principal’s house and a Muslim member of staff would go up into the hills and bring back a large Christmas Tree and we had a lot of fun and even sang Carols under the tree (Christan and Muslim together). Very memorable. No ‘political correctness’ there. The war against Christmas in the West is led by liberal secularists.

  19. FWIW, when we were in Cordoba a few years ago we visited the archaeological dig at the Caliph’s Summer Palace just a few miles west of the town. As we walked round, a group of about 15 men were just a few yards in front of us, stopping to read the information boards just as we were doing. Some were in jeans and T shirts, some in suits and ties and some in robes. Every so often they burst into song. The singing was quite extraodinary, real hairs on the back of the neck stuff.
    We got back to the car park just as they were getting into their minibus and I asked what they had been singing. They were academics from the University of Algiers and had been singing metrical versions of the Psalms of David in Arabic.
    Who knew, Muslims and Christians sing their own versions of Jewish religeous songs.

  20. barriers that fear puts up. ??? really ??? I think the barriers are being put up by Muslims with guns, knives and bombs … maybe they should work on that …

  21. Anthony, thanks for your courtesy, tolerance, balance and above all honesty in the face of abuse and in the pursuit of true science. From 1995 to 2000 I was Principal of Edwardes College at the University of Peshawar in N W Pakistan. Every Christmas I held a Christmas Party at the Principal’s house and a Muslim member of staff would bring a Christmas tree from up in the hills. We had a lot of fun and we even sang carols under the tree (Christan and Muslim together). No ‘political correctness’ there. The war on Christmas in the West is led by liberal secular atheists.

    • Just wondering – what is the penalty for blaspheme or apostasy in Pakistan? Wasn’t there some risk involved for any Muslim participation should some zealot report the gathering? Were you prepared for that possibility? GK

      • (Note: “Buster Brown” is the latest fake screen name for ‘David Socrates’, ‘Brian G Valentine’, ‘Joel D. Jackson’, ‘beckleybud’, ‘Edward Richardson’, ‘H Grouse’, and about twenty others. The same person is also an identity thief who has stolen legitimate commenters’ names. Therefore, all the time and effort he spent on writing 300 comments under the fake “BusterBrown” name, many of them quite long, are wasted because I am deleting them wholesale. ~mod.)

      • Good question. There was no apostasy. Just Christians and Muslims enjoying each others company at the festival of Christmas. That’s not illegal – yet, unless the Taliban gets to hear about it. I as a Christian would attend Eid celebrations. That by no means makes me a Muslim.

      • I didn’t suggest it WAS blaspheme or apostasy. I asked what is the penalty in Pakistan for such.

        Even though there was no apostasy involved I DO suggest those Muslims attending would have had a hard time defending themselves from a zealot accusation or mob. Flogging or beaten… perhaps killed… a real possibility these days. Significant risk IMHO. GK

  22. I find it kind of surprising that Hansen would appear on a panel with Mann. It’s hard to believe he doesn’t know about the hockey stick shenanigans or the Steyn court case. What does he intend to say if someone asks him about them?

    • He said that Dr. Hansen was in the audience, not sitting on a panel with Mann. It was a presentation by Oreskes and Mann and sitting in the audience doesn’t indicate agreement or collaboration with the presenters. Just ask Anthony.

      • The photo shows Hansen on the panel with the others. He was in the front row BEFORE the session, where panel members typically sit before going onstage.

    • Most people don’t know that Islam considers Jesus as the 4th major prophet. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus & Muhammad.

      • Thank you for your facts .
        Too my you need go no further than the basic philosophy of zionism — that one group which claims god gave them the land to the exclusion of even the indigenous populations of any other sect .
        Such a notion is exactly what the very first clause of the very first amendment of the Bill of Rights ruled inadmissible .

    • Yesterday there was a girl’s choir singing carols and other Christmas songs outside my local supermarket. The audience was the mix of colours you expect in modern urban Australia. Among them, enjoying the songs, were a couple of Muslim women, wearing Hijabs.

      Not that I am surprised. I have known a lot of Muslims, and they all seemed to think Christmas was fun and not the least bit scary at all.

  23. This post of typical of your approach and wins you so many admirers. It is why your blog is the most popular and respected sceptic climate science forum. Keep it up

  24. Darn, if the Japanese Americans had only known back in December of 1941. Just organize some Shinto Carolers, and probably FDR wouldn’t have rounded them up into internment camps. The progress of civilization sure is heartening.

  25. Well said AW. I appreciate your efforts here and in carrying the science to the other camp, especially when it results in the science reaching a wider audience like in the Bill Nye documentary.

  26. 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and only 50 million of them are Salafists. Very nice to see some of the majority showing their side. The Shia, Druze, Ismali, Sufi and most Sunnis are considered heretics or “not Muslim enough” by the Salafists. Now if we could make the house of Saud stop funding the Salafist schools throughout the world we’d be okay.

    • I hope you’re right, but there’s something that makes the most violent common denominator carry the day in the mid-East.

  27. In the lead post, Anthony Watts wrote,

    “The moral of all this? It’s easy to fall into hating/labeling/disrespecting people who differ from you in culture, or just even opinion. Whether you are a Muslim-American or a Climate Skeptic, tribalism often gets in the way of meaningful dialog and makes it easy to label and denounce the other side rather than listen to them. We all do it, and sometimes I’m just as guilty as David Appell or Michael Mann or Naomi Oreskes at getting tribal over things that have been said or done in the past. It’s why I couldn’t bring myself to introduce myself to Dr. Mann.”

    Yes.

    The civil personal interaction, in a polite social setting, of intellectuals with critically significant differences in views is important because it tends to increase humanizing the parties thus reducing some of the dehumanizing.

    Mutually voluntary face to face communication should be increased if at all feasible. When I stopped attending the AGU Fall Meeting I missed that kind of interaction. Maybe I will start going again; probably will.

    John

  28. In the lead post, Anthony Watts wrote,

    “Mr. Sussberg was pleasant, informed, and curious, and he assured me that the film was “About Bill Nye, not by Bill Nye” and that he’d offer me the unedited interview video to post on WUWT as a hedge against my worries about being misrepresented in editing.”

    Anthony,

    Although it is good that Sussberg promised to give you an unedited video copy of the interview, I think that is not sufficient due diligence on your part for your own protection. You need have him agree that you will also make your own audio recording of the interview on your own device. Trust, OK, but your own backup documention of interview is prudent. That is what Moreno did with the Cook interview in Paris.

    John

  29. Good for you Anthony! It has always struck me how if you can find a way to engage people that you can illuminate the civility that unites us rather than the vitriol that enrages us. I like that quote from Gandhi “an eye for an eye leaves a world gone blind ” Somehow I don’t think Socrates ever raised his voice and shouted down those he didn’t agree with!

  30. Thank you for being there and reporting for us, Ant’ny. I am grateful for the words and wisdom you bring to my day (cheers to all you mods, contributors, and readers, also). WUWT is an amazing place to take ones cerebral cortex for a jog. I have altered my views on many subjects because someone more knowledgable in a field than I has presented a position that makes more sense. Hopefully, you will be given the opportunity to present some information that may help the less informed. Stay strong, utilize every piece of knowledge at your disposal. Thanks Ant’ny

  31. Anthony,

    You are a better man than I am and I am glad for you.
    I am a worse man than you are and I am glad for me.
    To each his own.

    Eugene WR Gallun

  32. ” … why climate skepticism is bad …”
    Please don’t keep us in suspense. Why is it bad?

    “Skepticism or scepticism (see spelling differences) is generally any questioning attitude towards unempirical knowledge or opinions/beliefs stated as facts, or doubt regarding claims that are taken for granted elsewhere.”

    This sounds like the definition of a scientist.

      • I once had a fellow Christian express the wish that I would be “deprogrammed” because they didn’t like what I said…and I could back it up.
        What is, is.
        (No need for a definition.8-)

      • Have you ever questioned that belief, Forest?

        ~ He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.~

        (Proverbs 18:13)

  33. Good point Anthony…but the number of times I have expressed skeptical views in a friendly or neutral way and been met with sour sarcasm or outright aggression indicates to me that most of the ‘hatred’ is coming one direction!

  34. The most famous truce of recent times must be the 1914 War Christmas Truce where German and British soldiers left their trenches to venture into no man’s land to exchange gifts, swap souvenirs, play games and sing Christmas carols.

    This amazing event was interpreted by many as a spontaneous gesture by the common soldier against war and led to other agreements along the front not to attack at certain times which gave the soldiers some control over their own existence in a spirit of “live and let live”.

    Unfortunately it could not completely stop the fighting and the senseless war went on for another 4 years resulting in 17 million people losing their lives. It was also significant that one of the German soldiers opposing the truce was Corporal Adolf Hitler.

    But it is also a fact that any fictional script writer will tell you that the basic script format is:

    Scenario – Conflict – Resolution

    and that humans thrive on conflict and without it Hollywood would not exist. But it does concern me that as with Adolf Hitler and certain sections of society, Hollywood prefers to choose a violent physical conflict and resolution rather than a diplomatic and intellectual one.

    I am not sure whether I will ever see a resolution to the Climate War, perhaps my grandchildren will, but in the meantime, may YOU thrive on your conflict but resolve it intellectually with argument of fact and evidence and not with hatred and vilification.

    And may I wish you all the overwhelming Christmas message of both Anthony and 1914 British and German soldiers of live and let live and “Peace and good will towards men”.

    • The resolution to the “Climate War” will come when people realize it really isn’t getting “warmer” or that it is actually a lot better to be warm and alive than frozen stiff.

    • “Peace and good will towards men” is a misquotation. The original biblical expression is “…Peace to men of good will.” There can be no peace with men of bad will, much as we might like to believe it.

  35. Excellent article. It makes some important points that need to be made, especially for these types of discussions.

  36. Good Luck with the dialogue with Bill Nye, and any others, Anthony. It is a good time as the sand is slipping from beneath their feet and they know that they are need of support from anyone.
    I’m not sure about the T-shirt, though. You made some very good points in this article.

  37. It was lucky for the nice Muslim Carolers that they were in San Francisco and not a Country with Sharia Law or they qualify for the apostasy penalty:
    Qur’an (4:89) – “They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.”

  38. A few days ago on UK TV, the winner of The Great British Bake Off (Brits know what I am talking about) – a delightful young Muslim lady, suitably head-scarfed, was invited to the ceremony of switching on the Christmas lights in Luton. She carried this out beautifully and the crowd, all races, colours and religions, thoroughly enjoyed joining in the festivities. It was heartwarming. Later in another town, a muslim (I think) mother and father were interviewed and both were delighted that their son of five or six years old had been chosen to play the part of Joseph in the school Nativity Play. I know this isn’t a science posting, but it might let people know that some folks can live together happily even if they believe different things. Of course, religion is a faith whereas the warmist message is … well … a religion!

  39. I recently tweeted :
    @BobArmstrong Dec 3 | I grew up in the age of Mr Wizard who unlike the statists’ Nye didn’t tell you what’s true , He showed you what is .

    To label David Appell a “science writer” is to further , if possible , damage the term . He trolls and spams my posts wherever they may be . He is so redundant and determinedly ignorant that I even tried to contact George Sterman at Sunny Brook where he apparently got a PhD in physics .

    Appell does not reflect well on Sunny Brook’s physics program .

    • Bob Armstrong

      Not would be a debate! Mr Wizard against Bill Nye on basic science. Mr. Wizard would expose Bill Nye for the fool he is.

      Eugene WR Gallun

  40. “Haters male me famous” – funny! ;-) That reminds me of what Reggie Jackson said about people who boo him at baseball games:

    “Fans don’t boo nobodies.” Source: Baseball Illustrated (1975)

    I guess that make Anthony a somebody. :-)

  41. I’m not much surprised at Hansen’s reaction. I believe he’s one of the very few in this controversy who is absolutely sincere.

    • jorgekafkazar

      Crazy people can have nice manners. Hansen sincerely believes in crazy nonsense.

      Old Death Train Hansen
      (always good for a laugh)

      More holy than thou
      He warns you of Venus
      The only thing now
      That hardens his penis

      He rants at the crowds
      A coot with the hypers
      His mind in the clouds
      A load in his diapers

      He quotes from the Greens
      “We work for the many!”
      (Diversity means
      The colors of money!)

      He quotes from the Reds
      “Consensus is dictum!”
      (Good socialists heads
      Are all up one rectum!”

      A Fascist he cries
      This Goebbels of weather
      “The truth is in lies
      The bigger the better!”

      So just like a skunk
      His sight is alarming
      His science is junk
      There’s no global warming

      Eugene WR Gallun

  42. I am a hater. I hate those who robbed me — not only of my money but of the time of my life, of the opportunities I could have had but was never given. Worst of all, by their hoaxes, by their shameless propaganda, by their financial pyramids and by their persecution of truth, they robbed me of my trust in human ability to value freedom and civilization, they taught me to despise most of the people. I shall never forgive them and never shake their hands. Even that most dangerous of human weaknesses, vanity, won’t make me make peace with green thieves.

    • What an awful dilemma, Alexander!
      You are confronted, daily, with proof that men are evil.
      But you, being good, falsify the proposition that all men are evil.
      So you can’t condemn the lot – because you redeem them.
      Well, maybe they are not the same species as you are?
      Does that help?

      • Not all men are evil. I never said or wrote any of the things that you are trying to put in my mouth. Therefore, there is no dilemma, and your comments are utterly useless.

      • Dear Alexander,
        I never came within a miles of your mouth.
        If you just want to simper and fume without being noticed – surely you know how.
        By posting on an internet forum, you have made your lamentations and declarations of hatred a public display. It is to invite comments. Looks like a dilemma to me…lol
        If you have a problem with this, you are the control knob.

  43. I lived in a largely Muslim part of inner city Bristol (England) for nigh on a quarter of a century. Whilst Oxfam were busily removing Christmas trees from their shops (in case they offended anybody. I hadn’t realised that trees could offend anyone, but there you go). Our Muslim neighbours would say Happy Christmas to us on Christmas Day, and compliment the finely decorated Xmas tree we always had in the front window.

    Well done the carollers!

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