The Ethics of Climate Change

Calls for massive reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions ignore the impacts on the poor.

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Guest essay by Bob Lyman

People who believe in the theory of catastrophic human-induced global warming claim that they want to “save the planet” and that this is the moral thing to do. They insist, however, that saving the planet requires stringent reductions in people’s use of fossil fuel energy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. They never talk about what that means to the poor. I think that, before people decide on the ethics of the debate, they need to consider what the impact would be of sharply reducing energy consumption on the wellbeing of world’s population, and especially on the poor.

In 2014, the International Energy Agency (IEA) issued a Special Report entitled “Modern Energy for All”.  In it, the IEA stated that modern energy services are:

…crucial to human wellbeing” and to a country’s economic development.

Access to modern energy is essential for the provision of clean water, sanitation and healthcare and for the provision of reliable and efficient lighting heating, cooking, mechanical power, transport and telecommunications services.”

Today billions of people lack access to the most basic energy services. Nearly 1.3 billion people are without access to electricity and 2.7 billion people rely on traditional use of biomass (wood, charcoal and animal dung) for cooking, which causes harmful indoor air pollution.

Pause to think about that for a few minutes. Hundreds of millions of people are without the modern energy services that were available to our ancestors who lived in the nineteenth century. They get up with the dawn and go to bed close to nightfall because they have no electrical lighting. They have to go a river or well (if they are lucky) for water to drink or wash in. They have no way to power an appliance, including a refrigerator, so all food has to be eaten quickly or it may go bad. They have to walk long distances everyday to search for firewood or dried animal dung. There is no light to extend the day to provide time for reading or entertainment. They have no telephones. They have no way to pump water for irrigating crops. They have no motorized transportation, so they cannot go very far. Almost all their time is spent simply doing the simple tasks that in Canada and other advanced countries are done by machines. Worse, every day they breathe in the fumes from the dirty cooking fires, developing lung disorders. In fact, according to the IEA, every year 4.3 million premature deaths can be attributed to household air pollution resulting from the use of traditional biomass fuels for cooking.

The international community has long been aware of the close correlation between income levels and access to modern energy; not surprisingly, countries with a large proportion of the population living on an income of $2 per day tend to have low electrification rates and few motorized vehicles. The problem is spread throughout the developing world, but it is particularly severe in sub-Saharan Africa and developing Asia, which together account for 95% of people in abject energy poverty.

The latent demand for electricity is immense. An estimated 400 million people in India still lack access to electricity.  A recent study looked at the expansion of electricity that would be needed on an economy-wide basis in sub-Saharan Africa to comprehensively address energy access. To reach moderate access, where electricity generation capacity is around 200-400 megawatts (MW) per million people, the region would need a total of 374 MW of installed capacity. That’s about twelve times the level of capacity in the region today. All energy sources would be needed to help provide that much capacity.

This is where aspiration runs into reality. In desperately poor countries, they do not have the luxury to spend millions of dollars on energy. Renewable energy sources like wind and solar energy can sometimes be useful where there is no electricity transmission system to take centrally-generated power to rural areas, but it is expensive and often requires technology to install and operate. Further, wind and solar are “intermittent” sources, meaning that they only produce energy when the wind blows or the sun shines respectively. Electrical energy is expensive to store and this can only be done in small amounts.

For reliable electrical energy supply for any possibility of industrial development and for transportation, developing countries need large scale power generation based on low cost, generally available fuels. In India, and in many parts of Africa, this means coal.

Coal reserves are available in almost every country worldwide, with recoverable reserves in around 70 countries.  In fact, coal is the backbone of modern electricity in most parts of the world. It now provides about 30% of the primary energy and 41% of global electricity generation. It is plentiful and relatively cheap. Over the decade from 2000 to 2010, China showed the world how massive expansion of coal-fired electricity generation could modernize its economy and bring electrification to almost all parts of the country. As a result, hundreds of millions of Chinese have lifted themselves out of energy and economic poverty and dramatically improved both their income and quality of life.

Yet, coal is the most carbon-intensive of fossil fuels. It is the fuel source most despised by those who want to drastically reduce emissions. The Obama Administration in the United States has, as part of its climate change agenda, pressured the World Bank to stop lending to coal-fired electricity projects and the World Bank has complied. The U.S. Administration has also withdrawn funding from the Export-Import Bank for such projects. Fortunately for the developing countries, a new Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank has been established with major funding from China, which will include funding of new coal projects.

Those pursuing the climate change political agenda are prepared to condemn the world’s poor living without modern energy to remain in their backward situation. For them, billions of blighted lives are preferable to increasing greenhouse gas emissions.

Even in the developed countries, the policies advanced for climate reasons fall heavily on the poor.

Electricity prices continue to surge in Europe where costs are often triple those in the U.S. EU governments have various schemes, taxes, subsidies, and mandates, such as Cap and Trade, feed-in tariffs, and surcharges that make Europeans pay more for power. Perhaps the best (worst?) example is Germany, where nearly 20% of families now live in “fuel poverty,” spending more than 10% of household income on energy. Germany’s energy transition (“Energiewende”) is expected to cost an astounding $735 billion, and many are demanding changes. Overall in Europe, 1.4 million more households are expected to be in fuel poverty by 2020.

In the name of climate change, governments are forcing utilities to sign long-term contracts paying as much as four times the going wholesale electricity rate for renewables. Power markets have become so distorted that wind farms in the UK and in Ontario, for instance, have been paid millions to NOT produce electricity.

Supporters of “green” energy policies keep saying that poverty will be reduced if only efficiency would improve, but that position doesn’t hold up. Energy efficiency in the EU has improved around 20% since 2005. In the UK, for instance, energy efficiency has increased nearly 30% since 2003, yet electricity prices have almost doubled and homes in fuel poverty have nearly quadrupled. Europe’s main fuel poverty problem isn’t a lack of efficiency, it’s soaring prices.

Apart from the higher prices, another meaningful measure of energy poverty in Germany is the number of supply stoppages (“power cuts”) ordered by utility companies. Basic suppliers are entitled to interrupt their electricity or gas deliveries in the event of arrears in payment of more than 100 euros after a warning notice followed by a repeated threat to terminate service. According to a survey of the German Network Agency (Bundesnetzagentur), in 2013 warnings of electricity supply termination were issued to 5.7 million private households in Germany. The supply of electricity was actually interrupted to roughly 320,000 households.

There are many different moral standards to which one might refer in defining what is the most “ethical” way for people to act when considering their use of energy and other goods to improve their lives. Those environmentalists who claim that “nature” is more important than humans and that any measure, regardless of how costly, should be taken to reduce the effects of humans on the planet will never be satisfied. In my view, human wellbeing, and especially the plight of the world’s poor, deserves a prominent place in judgments about what is ethical behavior. Sharply reducing fossil fuel use means reducing economic development, condemning poor societies to remain poor, and requiring the poor people of today to sacrifice for the sake of addressing an unproven problem in a distant future — this is truly immoral.


Reference:

IEA- Modern Energy for All

http://www.worldenergyoutlook.org/resources/energydevelopment/

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May 23, 2015 5:32 pm

Excellent article. Being “green” means keeping undeserving people in poverty, such logical thinking. Meanwhile, save the planet for those who are deemed worthy, just let the rest die. This thought process is delusional, illogical and unethical. This sickness needs to be removed from human society.

Reply to  John
May 23, 2015 8:43 pm

Gang Green is gangrene.

pat
May 23, 2015 6:08 pm

23 May: UK Telegraph: Christopher Booker: With David Cameron and Amber Rudd, we are looking at a long, cold future
The Government’s policy on decarbonising our economy remains a complete and utter fantasy
Two events last week confirmed that, in appointing his new Government, David Cameron made a catastrophic misjudgment by putting our energy policy in the charge of a minister who believes that only by “decarbonising” our economy can we avert the awful disaster of global warming. Our new Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Amber Rudd, is wholly committed to both these beliefs, saying that her highest priority will be the signing of that proposed global “climate treaty” in Paris next December.
One of these events was the announcement that yet another of our large coal-fired power stations, Ferrybridge in Yorkshire, is shortly to close, thanks to the way George Osborne’s “carbon tax” – five times higher than any other in Europe – is making coal, otherwise by far the cheapest source of electricity, wholly uncompetitive.
This follows the other recently announced, equally premature closure of the giant 2.4-gigawatts (GW) coal-fired power station at Longannet, the only one left in Scotland…
Last winter we could still rely on coal for a third of all the electricity we needed to keep our lights on: averaging 12.7 gigawatts, far more than any other power source…
But what was also made clearer than ever last week is that this treaty simply isn’t going to happen. China and India, already the first and third largest CO2 emitters in the world, haven’t the faintest intention of agreeing to it. In a recent joint statement, their prime ministers said they would be happy to build lots more “renewable” energy sources, so long as developed nations such as Britain keep their promise by 2020 to pay $100 billion a year to help them to do it…
But at the same time, to help raise their people out of poverty, they plan within five years to build 300 more coal-fired power plants, adding far more CO2 to the atmosphere every year than the total annually emitted by the UK. India alone plans to add 124GW of coal-fired capacity by 2020, more than eight times the entire capacity left in Britain.
So nothing our new Energy and Climate Change Secretary can do will make the slightest difference to the world’s output of CO2…
Last Tuesday afternoon we were still able to depend for nearly 25 per cent of all the electricity we were using on coal, while only a mere 1 per cent was coming from our 4,500 windmills.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/11623407/With-David-Cameron-and-Amber-Rudd-we-are-looking-at-a-long-cold-future.html

rd50
Reply to  pat
May 23, 2015 6:31 pm

Are you still using coal in the UK? The Internet is full of sites about Drax importing wood pellets from the USA as well as all new advices for wood (willow) growing practices in the UK to replace coal.
Just great information is available about the UK going to renewable biomass.
We are waiting for you to lead the way. Somebody has to. Then others can follow your lead.

auto
Reply to  rd50
May 23, 2015 7:50 pm

rd
Did I miss the /sarc tag?
There are wholly too many gullible politicians – with no formal science education past 16 [Cameron, say] (Amber Rudd has a history degree) – and a naïve belief that activity equals achievement.
No need to think things through [if they can]; sometimes masterly inactivity is truly the best policy.
Not always – but with the levelling off of temperatures, globally – despite CO2 going gangbusters for a decade and three-quarters – might it not be an option.
Auto

rd50
Reply to  rd50
May 23, 2015 8:11 pm

To Auto.
You did not miss a /sarc tag.
There is none and no intention of adding one.
I described what the UK is doing, no more and no less.
The UK is leading for renewable biomass replacing coal. No more, no less.
I fully understand that CO2, as very reliably measured and reported (with no homogenization) from Mauna Lua has been increasing steadily and no matching increase in global atmospheric recently temperature for quite a while (name the year span you want).
But if the UK wants to go to renewable biomass, go for it. We will look at your results. No more and no less.

A C Osborn
Reply to  rd50
May 24, 2015 4:15 am

RD50, the we can only assume that you are one of the “Brainwashed”.
You do understand that conversion of large power stations like Drax to Wood Pellets uses twice as much wood as it did coal to produce the same amount of electricity?
You also understand that the trees being cut down in the USA to feed Drax were actually converting CO2 to Oxygen before they were cut down?
I hope you don’t believe that the trees were already cut down for some other use, because that is not true?
You also understand that Coal is CO2 that has been removed from the atmosphere and we will be returning it back where it belongs when we burn it?
You also understand that using Wood Pellets from the USA releases much more CO2 in to the atmosphere than Coal?
You also realise that it costs much more than burning Coal and is only being done using TAX PAYERS MONEY?
You also realise that the result of all this is to make Electricity much more expensive to the Poor?

Patrick
Reply to  rd50
May 24, 2015 5:56 am

“A C Osborn
May 24, 2015 at 4:15 am”
Well said. But not only that, the energy consumed in chipping trees in America and shipping to DRAX in the UK (A monumentally insane practice) also consumes so much more fuel, “dirty” diesel in ships (Until they get near shore and switch). DRAX sits ontop of a coal field!!!! DRAX supplies ~7% of total power usuage in the UK. That’s a lot! Wood contains less “thermal energy” than coal, by about 1/3rd if memory serves. So, more “carbon matter” needs to be burnt to do the same work. It’s clearly insane politics.
I pitty my relative and friends in the UK because many of them do not recall the rolling blackouts, brownout of the 1970’s, and that *WAS* man made! Wonderful “strikers” at “work” contributed to the UK being brought to it’s knees, resulting, in the end, in the winter of discontent.
Thank Crunchie we had an open fire with a back-boiler and my father stealing wooden pallets from the local industrial estate. Little did he know that such wood was treated (H3) and thus fumes and ash were toxic.

Tim
Reply to  rd50
May 24, 2015 7:02 am

rd50 – some more great information:
Regardless of their size, biomass-burning power plants actually produce more global warming CO2 than fossil fuel plants: 150% the CO2 of coal, and 300 to 400% the CO2 of natural gas, per unit of energy produced. In addition, burning wood biomass emits as much if not more air pollution than burning fossil fuels (including coal), i.e. particulate matter, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, lead, mercury, and other hazardous air pollutants, which can cause cancer or reproductive effects. The air pollution from biomass facilities, which the American Heart Association and the American Lung Association have called a danger to public health, produces respiratory illnesses, heart disease, cancer, and developmental delays in children.
http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2011/08/18/is-biomass-really-renewable/

rd50
Reply to  rd50
May 24, 2015 5:17 pm

Thank you to all of you who responded to my stating exactly what the UK is doing.
Why did the UK, as one of you wrote, adopted this “insane practice”?
Was this ethical?
It seems like ethical today in this field, as you will find on the numerous Drax sites on the Internet, is when the following words are included:
-decarbonization target
-biomass
-renewable
-sustainable
-carbon neutral
-biogenic carbon instead of geologic carbon
-and such sentences as “because sustainable sourced biomass is part of a continuing cycle and not adding new carbon to that cycle”
Never mind the physics, chemistry, biology, geology, statistical analysis etc. in making a decision. Use the above words and you are ethical.
But now, Drax announced that it has abandoned plans to convert their fourth unit to biomass! I wonder why.
Maybe it is because Drax can no longer include the buzz word “Sustainability” to their “insane” idea of wood pellets replacing coal! Yes, go on campus now. New departments, centers, institutes etc. of Sustainability popping up.
So we moved from Global Warming to Climate Change to Sustainability.

rd50
Reply to  rd50
May 24, 2015 5:30 pm

To A C Osborn
I understand all these points you made.
So why is the UK doing this? They certainly do not understand what you stated.
The UK has been brainwashing me that burning wood pellets imported from the USA is a great idea to replace burning coal.
UK leads the way in this innovative (some say insane) experiment. I am willing to wait and see.

Russ Wood
Reply to  rd50
May 25, 2015 11:32 am

“Then others can follow your lead” – To freeze?

Crispin in Waterloo
Reply to  pat
May 24, 2015 8:15 pm

Pat
Is it true that those 4500 windmills cost about $2,000,000 each (not counting service roads, power lines and maintenance contracts)?
That is $9,000,000,000 for 1% of the UK’s current needs. ‘going renewable’ will cost $900,000,000,000 plus, plus, plus subsidies, and it still won’t work all the time. You will be ensured a job as a peat cutter before this is all flushed aside.
Absolutely barking mad.

Peterg
May 23, 2015 8:03 pm

Anthropomorphic climate change is a myth elites use to centralize political power, much like whatever reason the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs used to convince the peasants to use their spare time building pyramids.
As such, the plight of the poorest goes into the “accidents happen” file.
Were climate change a genuine problem, any fool can see that the electrification of the worlds poorest few billion would require nuclear power, and set up schemes to build the required power stations, provide them with fuel, and take the waste to centralized handling facilities.

May 23, 2015 8:43 pm

“With every turn of their blade another subsidy paid,
A disguised redistribution of wealth;
The poor pay higher amounts to fund “green” bank accounts,
Enrichment through environmental stealth……”
Read more: http://wp.me/p3KQlH-ID

Crispin in Waterloo
Reply to  rhymeafterrhyme
May 24, 2015 8:53 pm

A proxy for madness, the barking dog said,
All rabid and foamed at the mouth.
Renewable power to light up the hearth?!
This winter, sure, I’m heading south.
Let sleeping dogs lie? They’ve turned off the lights!
The grid has gone all out of tune.
Shall we just sit here idle while rich count their coins
Shall we strive to be warmed by the moon?
It’s a dark night in Scotland when old widows die
For the want of a few measly Watts.
With numb-fingered hands they have put out coal’s fire;
And the gridmen say, ‘That’s all we gots.’
From Plymouth to Tonbridge, ‘cross Hogsback they say,
A great evil is grasping the land:
Ignoring the obvious facts, charts and truths,
They have buried their heads in the sand.
They are thinking that CO2 caused every blip
On the weather chart, winter right through.
“We’ll have subsidised PV and wind for the rich!”
“For the rest? Tough buns! Sucks to be you!!”

Terry Bixler
May 23, 2015 9:47 pm

Clearly it is not about energy but who is in charge. Carbon is the perfect foil as we happen to be carbon life forms and predominately use carbon energy sources. We additionally consume for life carbon based foods. It is no wonder that the attempt is to control carbon.

John F. Hultquist
May 23, 2015 10:40 pm

When I was young, and before that, missionaries would visit our church. They would tell of the poor folks in “under developed” countries and plead for donations so things would get better. I think most of that money never made it to the poor. Has anything gotten better? Perhaps the best thing the developed world has provided is a greater amount of plant food in the atmosphere. It is less easily skimmed than money.

Patrick
May 23, 2015 11:31 pm

I have a real problem with “activists” who claim their desire to “…save the planet…”! I remind these types that the planet is find, does not need saving and has a shelflife. It will be consumed by the sun when the sun runes out of fuel.

richardscourtney
May 23, 2015 11:38 pm

Bob Lyman
You report:
“Fortunately for the developing countries, a new Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank has been established with major funding from China, which will include funding of new coal projects.”
YES! And China is doing it to obtain both economic and political power.
People need to be reminded that the USA did the same by applying the Marshall Plan to regenerate Europe after WW2. The eventual result was US world dominance.
Richard

richardscourtney
May 23, 2015 11:41 pm

Mods
In my post the quotation should have been in quotation marks. It is
“Fortunately for the developing countries, a new Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank has been established with major funding from China, which will include funding of new coal projects.”
The following sentence should be bolded.
Sorry.
Richard

Patrick
May 24, 2015 2:02 am

The largest hydro-power plant in Africa is being built in Ethiopia and is quite a bit bigger than Aswan. Downstream countries are a bit worried about water flows. I have travelled in Ethiopia extensively, a totally beautiful experience, food, people, music and culture. On the Blue Nile, Ethipoia, about 75% of the water that used to flow over the “Whispering Falls” is now diverted to hydro-power. I travelled there in 2006/7 and saw brand new shiny galvanised power line pylons carrying power to the capitol, Addis Ababa. I also saw power meters on the walls of the local houses, which were, in effect, little more than a mud huts. So, power is being deployed throughout Ethiopia but that 70% figure of none could be a bit misleading. It is true that power supply is not 100%, 24×7, reliable, but in my experience, nowhere I’ve lived has 100%, 24×7, reliable power supply anyway.
Recently where I live, one phase on the supply went “open circuit”, leaving 5 apartments in the block without power. Given my electical background, took me about 60 minutes or more to convice Ausgrid (Maintains the wires and poles in the street) workers, and to actually get them to attend, that it was a supply problem, not a problem with the apartments affected. The feeling I got from the Ausgrid workers was that no-one else had been trained and understands 3 phase supply systems. D’oh!

Crispin in Waterloo
Reply to  Patrick
May 25, 2015 7:10 pm

The largest hydro scheme in Africa is the one being developed near the mouth of the Congo River in the DRC. When fully implemented is will generate enough electricity to power the whole of Europe. It’s too bad fanatics don’t consider hydro power to be ‘renewable’.

May 24, 2015 5:30 am

I wish the billions of pounds and dollars of aid money would be spent energising developing countries. Maybe then we could help them trade their way to prosperity. Unfortunately, the loony left neither want more energy or an increase in global trade.
Do they even consider that money saved on energy use goes towards other things that, err, require energy?

Patrick
Reply to  DVan
May 24, 2015 6:08 am

Some of it is, but most of it get’s “consumed” by corrupt “officials”…and that is sad. I have seen what LiveAid did and is still working. I have seen what Oprah Winfry does, with her “Fistula” hospital (You don’t want to google that, trust me), and still does. I recall once in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, a “policeman” pulling over the taxi driver for some “traffic offense”, when all he did was toot to some people on the road to warn them. Of course, the “policeman” noticed I was in the car. Eventually, we were given pass, albeit with a bribe! Probably a months wages!

David Cage
May 24, 2015 5:31 am

Let us not forget that climate scientists and their “adjusted ” data justifying climate change taxation kill more people each year than murderers do in the UK.

In the Real World
May 24, 2015 5:33 am

The ” Watermelon ” politicians of the EU have been planning for the inevitable power cuts that are coming from running down of reliable power generation & the conversion to ” renewable ” power sources .
There has been rules coming out for a few years that limit the power consumption of all sorts of domestic appliances , [ washing machines , vacuum cleaners etc etc ] , in the knowledge that it will reduce the demand at any one time on the electric supply grid .
Another one they are trying to bring in is the use of ” Smart meters ” in homes . This is so they cut off individual premises when there is a power shortage .
So with long term planning like this it is going to be hard work to convince everybody that the politicians are deliberately working against the best interests of the people .

May 24, 2015 7:14 am

PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS
I am having trouble comprehending that the 30 some degrees that the Earth is warmer than a chunk of rock at the same distance from the Sun is all from CO2, as the AGW believers do. Can someone please provide me with a calculation of the “Global” temperature of the Earth assuming just that the atmosphere had NO, zero, CO2. That is the existing atmospheric gasses less CO2. I have searched the internet for several years trying to find any calculation similar to this to no avail. This number and the fact that they contribute that much solely to CO2 just defies scientific logic.
Last week I saw one of those stupid scientific shows on tv where they do dangerous and stupid things. On this show I saw a clip of where they dropped a red hot ball into water. It stayed hot and sort of made weird noises for a while. And that is where I saw exactly what I was looking for. As I work in the power industry, I know full well if a boiler pipe does not have a good flow of water going past it quickly enough to prevent steam bubbles from forming around the pipe it will destroy it self faster than I can type this comment. This clip clearly showed this.
They dropped a red hot smooth ball into a glass of water. It quickly enveloped itself with steam which slowed down the transfer of energy to the water (sounds like s GHG to me) eventually the bubble collapsed and it sizzled like you would expect from shoving a hot poker into water or any other none mirror smoothed object.
The Earth is surrounded by a bubble of atmosphere also. That bubble, even with absolutely ZERO CO2 is going to slow down the transfer of energy, insulate, act as a GHG, whatever you want to call it and by all laws of physics and thermodynamics MUST make the EARTH warmer than that theoretical rock at the same distance from the SUN. Note: The ball must be smooth if rough it will not hold the bubble. And the Earth is many times smoother that that ball relative to size.
Where is the calculation? One for no water, one for no CO2, one for neither and there is your smoking gun that CO2 AGW is BS.
Clip discussed above – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3LOhYRY59Y

richardscourtney
Reply to  usurbrain
May 24, 2015 9:36 am

usurbrain
This is a simple answer to your request that I provide in hope of helping.
The steel ball is surrounded by conductive water and loses most heat by conduction into the water.
Steam conducts heat less well than water.
So, a layer of steam around the ball reduces the rate of heat loss from the ball by insulating the ball from the water (i.e. the steam acts like a blanket).
The Earth is surrounded by the vacuum of space and a vacuum does not conduct, so the Earth cannot lose heat by conduction.
The Earth loses heat by radiation to space.
Most gases are transparent to most radiation so don’t affect heat loss to space (i.e. they don’t ‘insulate’ the Earth from space). Greenhouse gases (GHGs) are not transparent to some radiation so they act as ‘insulators’ for that radiation (i.e. they do ‘insulate’ the Earth from space).
I hope that helps.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
May 24, 2015 11:34 am

And what effect does the insulating properties of the atmosphere (less CO2) have? The atmosphere will have a specific rate of heat transfer. Approximate values are shown here, http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/thermalP/Lesson-1/Rates-of-Heat-Transfer
Any object that has a low rate of heat transfer acts like an insulator. The lower it is the better that insulator is. Air, oxygen and Nitrogen are all about 0.024 making them fairly good insulators. The insulation of the atmosphere provided by the several miles of air must have some effect on the surface temperature. My question is What is that amount? The temperature gradient across the atmosphere logically MUST be affected by its own insulating [properties. The degree of that gradient is going to in turn, determine how much energy is “radiated” by IR radiation through the rest of the atmosphere.
The thing I saw in the clip was the ball stayed hot, partially by the fact that it was insulated by a film of steam. PERIOD. It was also cooled because it radiated energy through the film of steam, eventually cooling it enough to collapse the steam bubble.
I agree, believe, that CO2 has SOME GHE on the temperature of the Earth. My problem is that; 1. The warmists claim it is ALL because of CO2 and; 2. the only rigorous calculation (I have found) as to what the amount is (the 30 some degrees) relates it to the temperature of Venus and the percent of CO2 in the atmosphere of Venus. However, that calculation completely ignores the fact that there are numerous gases in the atmosphere that are metals and liquids, and liquid metals on earth. Lead and sulfur for two that come to mind.as to some that would be in the atmosphere. Not aware of those being in massive or even appreciable quantities in the earths atmosphere.

richardscourtney
Reply to  richardscourtney
May 24, 2015 10:42 pm

usurbrain
Please again read my original attempt to help you. This time remember that
(a)
Heat is a form of energy that is conveyed by conduction.
(b)
Radiation is not heat: it is electromagnetic energy.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
May 25, 2015 6:11 am

And I repeat for the third time “And what effect does the insulating properties of the atmosphere (less CO2) have? ” what is that temperature? is it 1, 2, 5, 10 degrees colder? That is what I want to know. How can they claim that CO2 adds 30 degrees if they can not explain what it is without CO2? Or stated differently what is the GHE of the atmosphere with NO CO2. It can not all be attributed to CO2. I apologize for any additional information I added that has confused you, I am in no way an expert on this topic. I am relating what I have read about AGW to my 50 years as a Nuclear engineer and an avid Amateur Radio operator With a degree in both Electronics and Nuclear Engineering.
The hot ball video is a perfect example of what happens to a NPP fuel rod with low flow – it develops a steam blanket and the fuel rod melts, as in TMI. That steam bubble film only has to be about as thick as a sheet of paper to destroy a fuel rod In the same way. Relating this fact to the many valleys and areas of very low wind flow on the earth (land or water) that will add a dead, insulating layer reducing conduction.

richardscourtney
Reply to  richardscourtney
May 25, 2015 11:05 am

usurbrain
You say

And I repeat for the third time “And what effect does the insulating properties of the atmosphere (less CO2) have? ”

And I answer for the third time, NONE.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
May 25, 2015 12:06 pm

@richardscourtney
It appears that you have not read the title of this article – “The Ethics of Climate Change” any one reading this can comprehend that I am interested in the TEMPERATURE that the Earth would be if there is/was NO, ZERO CO2 in the atmosphere. Your answer indicates either the level of your knowledge on Global Warming and Anthropogenic Climate Change OR your ethics. Probably both. as you are a frequent visitor to this site and make quite a few postings.
SO. to be perfectly clear, from my very first posting, not the one that you deflected me into I repeat it again
“I am having trouble comprehending that the 30 some degrees that the Earth is warmer than a chunk of rock at the same distance from the Sun is all from CO2, as the AGW believers do. Can someone please provide me with a calculation of the “Global” temperature of the Earth assuming just that the atmosphere had NO, zero, CO2.”
Or is that above your technical capabilities?

richardscourtney
Reply to  richardscourtney
May 25, 2015 12:57 pm

usurbrain
Why the insults?
You asked a question and I answered it.
You did not like the answer so you asked it again and I addressed what seemed to be your problem.
You asked it a third time and I gave a blunt answer which – I wrongly thought – could not be misunderstood.
Now you say

I am having trouble comprehending that the 30 some degrees that the Earth is warmer than a chunk of rock at the same distance from the Sun is all from CO2,

Nobody says that! It is but one of your many misunderstandings.
The major green house gas (GHG) is water vapour (H2O) and it is responsible for about half the greenhouse effect. The other greenhouse gases are called the minor GHGs. CO2 contributes about half the effect of all the minor GHGs.
You conclude

Can someone please provide me with a calculation of the “Global” temperature of the Earth assuming just that the atmosphere had NO, zero, CO2.”
Or is that above your technical capabilities?

No it is not above the “technical capabilities” of anyone who studies this stuff.
Simplistically, you can do it for yourself to obtain a reasonable approximation.
The greenhouse effect (GE) raises the Earth’s average surface temperature ~32K.
CO2 provides about a quarter of the GE.
So, absent CO2 the Earth’s average surface temperature would be cooler by
~(32/4) K = ~8K.

I have attempted to help you out of kindness. You have responded with insults and abuse.
I will not waste my time attempting to give you additional help.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
May 25, 2015 3:49 pm

Your answering my original question as stated in the very first post is greatly appreciated.
I have seen many webpages and posts on blogs attributing in the neighborhood of 30 degrees (F) to CO2 and that is why I used that number. I have asked many times about the effect of water and have gotten tired of hearing that : it has no effect, is positive or negative and is canceled out due to the clouds, It has No effect as it is removed from the atmosphere in a very short period and thus can be ignored. Or in other words garbage and warmists propaganda.

Crispin in Waterloo
Reply to  richardscourtney
May 25, 2015 7:31 pm

The atmosphere without CO2 would still contain water vapour which is a GHG.
Oxygen has a slight GHG effect too. Methane would continue to emerge from the oceans, manufactured by heat and pressure, unless the assumption is that the earth had no carbon at all which is stretching the original question’s parameters.
If the planet were entirely covered in ice, it would still have water vapour. Don’t believe the story that water vapour ‘is only a feedback’. CO2 does not ‘allow’ sublimination and evaporation. Without CO2 there would be clouds and rain and ice crystals and snow and hurricanes and it would be colder than now.

May 24, 2015 7:59 am

There’s a 60-mile-long conveyor belt in the Sahara– cheaper to move the coal than train. Yes, some of it’d be stolen/diverted and might have to be drone-watched, but Gard’s right, the tech./lawlessness and cost , let alone maintenance (? Fukushima) of Nuclear, sorry, Nukular, make coal a far better bet.

Eric Gisin
May 24, 2015 11:02 am

The graph legend is wrong. India does not have less than 20% access to electricity. The text even says about 33% don’t have, so 66% do have.

John Moore
May 24, 2015 11:32 am

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘energy efficiency’ in the UK has reduced electricity consumption by 30%. Any reduction as I see it is caused by the fact that industry has contracted by a similar amount. The aluminium smelters for example have gone which used vast amount of power. As far as domestic appliances are concerned the new washing machines have done away with a hot water inlet so instead of heating by gas only electricity is used. Most ‘improved efficiencies’ are smoke and mirrors.

Reply to  John Moore
May 24, 2015 12:40 pm

What about those mandated new lower horsepower/amp vacuum cleaners. You know like the less than one gallon flush toilets the US imposed that you have to flush twice to clear the bowl. You now have to spend twice as much time sweeping to pick up the dirt.

May 24, 2015 1:08 pm

usurbrain,
Regarding your question above about the ‘right’ temperature for the planet, there is no ‘correct’ temperature. But there are parameters:
http://www.kogagrove.org/sams/agw/images/paleomap.png
Global temperatures have remained within those upper and lower bands of about 12ºC – 22ºC for billions of years. In fact, we are currently at the cooler end of the historical range (a little over 14º C.).
All the nonsense about not ‘allowing’ the temperature to exceed “2ºC” or “1.5ºC” is based on… nothing. It is an opinion, pulled right out of their… well, you get the idea.
The biosphere, including people, would be considerably better off with temperatures 2ºC warmer. Vast tracts of land in places like Siberia, Mongolia, Alaska, and Canada would be opened to agriculture. The Northwest Passage would be ice-free, saving huge amounts of fuel and transit time. And so on. There is no downside, because global warming means higher low temperatures, not higher high temperatures; higher night time temperatures, not higher daytime temperatures. Warmer at the high latitudes, not at the equator.
On the other hand, a global cooling of 2º would be disastrous.

dmacleo
May 24, 2015 3:53 pm

and most of those civilizations a lot older then ours here in the US so I no longer care.

Evan Jones
Editor
May 24, 2015 4:04 pm

I’ve been on about this one for years. I brought it up a mere two posts ago, come to think of it. Can’t be said too much.
Say it more. Say it loud. Sing it out.

AJ Virgo
May 24, 2015 8:41 pm

…a who’s who of political corruption.

AntonyIndia
May 25, 2015 12:49 am

Hear, hear! Green adagio; let them eat solar cake.

Zeke
Reply to  AntonyIndia
May 29, 2015 10:50 am

It’s so delicious and moist.

StefanL
May 25, 2015 3:52 pm

The colour scheme of the map is (deliberately ?) misleading.
To match reality, it should show the low electricity nations in dark colours and the high electricity nations in light colours.
I suspect that the original intent was to show the “bad” coal burning nations as black-hearted polluters.