Eric Worrall writes: Mann’s thermometer spliced hockey stick has taken even more damage in the last few days, with Steve McIntyre helpfully providing reconstructions based on tree rings which demonstrate how, without the benefit of Mike’s scientifically dubious “nature trick”, the hockey stick simply disappears – tree rings demonstrably don’t correlate with temperature.

According to McIntyre;
The new information shows dramatic failure of the Sheep Mountain chronology as an out-of-sample temperature proxy, as it has a dramatic divergence from NH temperature since 1980, the end of the Mann et al (and many other) reconstructions. While the issue is very severe for the Mann reconstructions, it affects numerous other reconstructions, including PAGES2K.”
What is worse, in my opinion, is that Mann and Briffa can’t even claim they weren’t warned. As early as 1998, the very Russian Scientists who Briffa hired to collect the tree ring samples, tried to alert Briffa that the samples didn’t show what they wanted them to show. The difference is, the Russians weren’t measuring tree ring width, their favoured metric was the polar timberline – the northernmost edge of the great Arctic forests.
According to Rashit Hantemirov, of the Russian Academy of Science;
According to reconsructions most favorable conditions for tree growth
have been marked during 5000-1700 BC. At that time position of tree
line was far northward of recent one.
[Unfortunately, region of our research don’t include the whole area
where trees grew during the Holocene. We can maintain that before 1700
BC tree line was northward of our research area. We have only 3 dated
remnants of trees from Yuribey River sampled by our colleagues (70 km
to the north from recent polar tree line) that grew during 4200-4016
and 3330-2986 BC.]
This period is pointed out by low interannual variability of tree
growth and high trees abundance discontinued, however, by several
short (50-100 years) unfavorable periods, most significant of them
dated about 4060-3990 BC. Since about 2800 BC gradual worsening of
tree growth condition has begun. Significant shift of the polar tree
line to the south have been fixed between 1700 and 1600 BC. At the
same time interannual tree growth variability increased appreciably.
During last 3600 years most of reconstructed indices have been varying
not so very significant. Tree line has been shifting within 3-5 km
near recent one. Low abundance of trees has been fixed during
1410-1250 BC and 500-350 BC. Relatively high number of trees has been
noted during 750-1450 AD.
There are no evidences of moving polar timberline to the north during
last century.
Some of Mann’s own colleagues warned Mann about the unreliability of tree rings – this email from Tom Wigley, discussing how his son’s high school project falsified Mann’s research.
“Also, stationarity is the key. Let me tell you a story. A few years back, my son Eirik did a tree ring science fair project using trees behind NCAR. He found that widths correlated with both temp and precip. However, temp and precip also correlate. There is much other evidence that it is precip that is the driver, and that the temp/width correlation arises via the temp/precip correlation. Interestingly, the temp correlations are much more ephemeral, so the complexities conspire to make this linkage non stationary.”
On this occasion though, Keith Briffa decided to support his friend Mann with some helpful advice (from the same email as the Wigley quote) – Keith’s suggestion is that Mann could dismiss the relevance of previous warm periods being warmer than today, by spinning the suggestion that the current warm period is different, because it is anthropogenic;
“Mike there is often no benefit in bandying fine points of emphasis and implication- Hence , I think that what you have already drafted is fine. Do not start to dilute or confuse the issue with too much additional detail. The job , as you state , is to place on record the statement of disagreement with the “science(!)” and spin. To this end , it may also be worth stating in less couched terms that merely eyeballing the relative magnitudes of recent versus prior period(s) of large scale warmth, is in itself very limited as a basis for claiming the reality OR OTHERWISE of anthropogenic forcing of the recent warming , if this is done without reference to the uncertainty and causes of these differences. The points you make to Tom are of course very valid , but do not be tempted to guild the lily too much here – stick with your current content
Has any piece of scientific research ever been so thoroughly discredited? Tom Wigley’s son’s high school project falsified the hockey stick. The latest Sheep mountain study shows the hockey stick disappears, unless you use Mike’s trick of splicing in the thermometer record, to hide the divergence problem. The Russian scientists who collected the original tree ring samples, tried to warn Mann he was measuring the wrong metric. Yet somehow this nonsensical analysis became a central icon of the climate alarmist movement – and is still widely reproduced by the more scientifically illiterate alarmists.
http://earth.nullschool.net/
Go to this site and have a look at global wind , temperature at poles . Antarctica there is huge area below 0 and evidently never goes above since exploration began .
Keep in mind it is 13 days from summer there.
Lonie, what a great site. One takes a look at the vortex’s and flows and one just has to realize that if there is ANYONE who believes they can model and predict based on the number of variables present is this amazing world of ours is either an idiot, has an ego that will not quit or really needs the money and is willing to sell their soul to sell ice to Eskimos.
My use of the word “honest” above has since been abused by ignorance. I used “honest” as in “an honest manner”, or “reflecting honest effort”, or “accurate characterization of the original”. I did not say dishonest. I did not mean dishonest. I know what I meant because uniquely in the world, I alone thought of and wrote what I wrote according to my view of the original post. I said what I said unambiguously. It is an intentional and additional misrepresentation to say otherwise and perhaps even dishonest to claim I said the exact opposite of what I said. A claim can be wrong and therefore not an honest representation without being a dishonest claim. In a post rife with mischaracterization I should not be surprised. Moreover it is quite accurate to say a thing is not an honest characterization of something without implying the inaccuracy is the result of dishonesty. I am surprised people of science need to be reminded of this. What I did was agree with what Steve M said. I didn’t say what Steve said, I only agreed with it, so if anyone has a problem with what Steve said then take it up with Steve.
More to the point I was referring the the original post by Eric above, not Eric personally. I have no way to know if Eric is an honest person or not. I am beginning to believe he has reading comprehension problems. I have Steve’s word the post is not accurate and hence not an honest representation of Steve’s work.
I repeat: Eric’s post here should be recalled until it is made accurate (honest characterization). And I have no patience for drama queens like Courtney and faux hurt feelings implied by Eric’s response to me. Grow up, boyz.
dp
Whatever you may have intended, what you wrote is clear and unambiguous.
It is not acceptable for you to fail to apologise to Eric Worral but instead to have provided a verbose diatribe pretending you wrote something other than what you did. Indeed, you have the gall to throw insults instead of apologies and the temerity to repeat your discredited and offensive falsehood saying
Furthermore, you did not include your post I am answering in the thread discussing your disgraceful behaviour but posted down here where it is away from its context: posting it here and not in context IS dishonest so hypocrisy can be added to your offences in this discussion
I refer you – and any interested others – to my response to your original and very nasty post and this link jumps to it.
Richard
Is there anything so stupid you’re not willing to say it?
dp
You ask presumably yourself
It would help if when publicly posing such questions to yourself you were also to provide your answers. At present it seems the reason you hide behind anonymity is because there is nothing so stupid you’re not willing to say it when posting as “dp”.
However, your attempt to switch discussion to consideration of your stupidity is a failure. Your apology is still awaited.
Richard
The truth is out. Unfortunately the damage has been well and truly done and the sheeple have fallen for it. The plan all along would have been to disseminate the false information to millions of naive public and even more naive students. The truth is what they have made it and the genie refuses into go back into his bottle within a 2 week news grab. Even if the MSM had the cajones to run it.
David Socrates December 8, 2014 at 3:57 pm
Mr Dbstealey.
Thirdly, Your Vostok graph PROVES that the MWP did not occur in Antarctica
Poor choice, lacks the resolution required, try this one instead:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c01543695be56970c-pi
or:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0176161407dc970c-popup
…
Lastly, if the MWP was a global event, why is it not in the Vostok cores?
see above
Why is there no evidence for it in Australia ?
Because there are very few appropriate proxies in Australia, so there is no evidence for the opposite either. Nice cherry pick there!
That said, there’s plenty from the region:
Peru
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0120a94e4b42970b-pi
South America
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c01675f6861c7970b-pi
Chile:
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c01901ea5a344970b-pi
New Zealand
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0128761b9537970c-pi
…
Posting the link to that data shows the MWP did not affect the southern hemisphere. Also note that your global map of “evidence” has none for Australia. Just another item proving the MWP did not happen in the SH..
Well at worst, I’ve shown that the MWP occurred all around Australia and across the SH, contrary to your claim above. If you find a proxy study showing that there was no warming in Australia, then you’ll have to explain why it is an outlier in comparison to the rest of the world.
I was reading a paper about Buttongrass in Tasmania and the archeology mentioned both the MPW and LIA, I’ll try to find a reference but here is a quote:
Found this oblique reference to the MWP in relation to Buttongrass . The scientists were actually complaining about the lack of the study of grasses because of a preference for trees and tree rings!! The paper below was referenced:
COOK E. R., PALMER J. G. & D’ARRIGO R. D. 2002. Evidence for a ‘Medieval Warm Period’ in a 1,100 year tree-ring reconstruction of past Austral summer temperatures in New Zealand. Geophysical Research Letters 29(15)
” Austral summer temperatures
…
What about Austrial winter, spring and autumn ?
Sorry Mr. David Mhoffer, but you can’t have it both ways.
You claim that the Vostok cores “,lacks the resolution ” then you go on to post a chart using the Victoria Glacier ice core. (the second graphic doesn’t mention the study it came from either, not to mention what the units are on the Y-axis)
Make up your mind about ice cores, or is your confirmation bias the reason you disregard the Vostok core?
A proxy reconstruction, to stick it to the Mann:
COOK E. R., PALMER J. G. & D’ARRIGO R. D. 2002. Evidence for a ‘Medieval Warm Period’
Scott, I suggest you look at the diagram on page 215, Fig 4
http://www7.nau.edu/mpcer/direnet/publications/publications_c/files/Cook-2002.pdf
Also note in page 214…….
“The running-RBAR and EPS plots show that the reliability of the chronology is not constant through time. Prior to AD 1200, RBAR declines sharply in one period, but overall the variations in this measure of signal strength are reasonably stable. EPS also remains stable and mostly above 0.85 back to AD 1200 and then declines systematically to a value below 0.50. This result is due to the decline in sample size indicated in Fig. 3 . So for purposes of interpolation the L. colensoichronology is reasonably reliable back to AD 1200 only. Further collections of sub-fossil wood from Oroko Swamp will undoubtedly improve the sample size in the period prior to AD 1500 and thus provide a more reliable record of past climate in the region”
So, the entire study admittedly is not accurate before 1200 AD
In their “Disscussions and Conclusions” on page 217 the specifically state….
…
“The net result of the calibration exercises shows that Oroko Swamp L. colensoican be used as a reliable proxy of high-summer (i.e. January–March) temperatures for this part of the New Zealand South Island. With the current chronology, this conclusion applies only to the AD 1200–1957 period ”
…
So, it not only states that they can’t say anything about what happens prior to 1200 AD, the data they do observe is ” a reliable proxy of high-summer” …..not the whole year.
But they can say a lot about the late MWP (From 1200 – c.1250) running out to 1957. Which is the point they make with reasonable confidence!
D. Socrates says:
the post calls the kettle black.
What are you talking about? Did you mean the “pot”? If so, I laugh at your ignorance. And I worked for more than thirty years during a highly technical Metrology carreer, designing, testing and calibrating weather-related instruments. I doubt uf you have even heard of some of them. But all you do is post your pseudo-science throughout the workday. So either you’re unemployed, or you are cheating your employer by commenting on blogs, instead of doing what you’re padi to do. Did I leave out any other possibilities? Or are you going to claim that’s what your imaginary employer pays you to do? As if.
Next:
The ice core you posted doesn’t show any MWP
You never asked about the MWP. How many times do I have to point that out? You only asked for ice core data. So now you’re deflecting again, as always.
And, at Dave Hoffer:
Make up your mind about ice cores, or is your confirmation bias the reason you disregard the Vostok core?
More deflection. Why are you afraid to answer his questions?
Finally, post your CV. You write like a high schooll graduate [“What about Austrial winter…”]. And since you ridicule esteemed scientists, you open yourself up to like criticism. If you don’t like it, post your own CV. Show us you’re their equal, and thus qualified to be critical.
Finally, as usual you’re chock full of questions. No one can post anything without you nitpicking their comment, until you find something that isn’t listed. Then you pretend what isn’t mentioned somehow cancels everything thay posted. Hoffer posted 50+ links — but you dismissed every one of them with one bogus comment. That is trolling.
You never answer questions, because if you did, everyone would see how flat wrong you are. So instead, you keep trolling.
Interesting that the divergence starts around 1995 when the AMO warmed. I wonder if there is a similar divergence during the 1925-1965 warm AMO phase?
Late arriving in this discussion, but once again it is necessary to point at the Emperor’s New Clothes…
“…tree rings demonstrably don’t correlate with temperature.”
Folks, this realization has tentacles that reach FAR beyond Mann’s amateurish effort to produce an ass-romping paper with his doctorate thesis.
The entire “science” of dendroclimatology is based on that correlation holding true, or very nearly true ALL THE TIME. But what has happened is that in the 1980s they took a temporary correlation and assumed that the correlation would hold true – for both the past and for the future. .
What they didn’t wake up to was that even in the 1980s the correlation was disintegrating before their very eyes. It has been falling apart since about 1940, though it wasn’t until the early 1990s that the climate guys and dendroclimatology guys begin to realize that something was amiss.
BUT AMAZINGLY, they did nothing to question their basic assumption. They assumed that the correlation would right itself pretty quickly.
A funny thing happened on the way to the Hockey Stick:
The correlation mismatch got worse and worse, not better and better. They had a proxy that was FAILING, and failing badly.
Yes, Mike got his pals to falsify the charts, which he had done himself, and they totally assumed that no one was smart enough to catch them.
But, like I said, that was just the SMALL PICTURE.
If there is no correlation, then there is no past tree-ring-based temperature record.
And there also cannot be a FUTURE temperature record based on tree-rings.
It is a House of Cards, and they have no science in their science.
Two more things:
1. The biologists use tree-rings as proxies for PRECIPITATION – AND temperature has been constant. But they can’t do that, according to dendroclimatology, because dendroclimatology has assumed that precipitation has been constant. (What a dumb idea THAT one is…) Thus, two different scientific disciplines assume exactly opposite things about the same evidence (precip is either constant or it is the correlating proxy – or temperature. AT LEAST ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE WRONG. But really, both of them are wrong. Why? Because BOTH temps and precip are variable in the known record and must be assumed variable in the UNKNOWN record, too.
2. Ice cores… Ice cores are useless in the most recent 200 years or so, so they should play no part in this recent non-correlation of anything whatsoever. Their resolution is very low, plus the fuzziness/vagueness of each one’s starting point makes the top several score layers too ambiguous for use – except in longer-ago times.
I’ve never believed trees are a proxy for a thermometer, and no study has ever proven them to be. So, none of this is surprising.